Wrestling With God

Welcome friend of the pod, Eli Irvin! Eli and Gabriel have known each other for many years, and when I (Megan) met him at the Wild Goose Festival last year, I knew we were going to be friends! Eli is an Episcopalian and has devoted his life to loving people well, particularly those in the LGBTQ+ community. We talked about the good and bad of the church, what it really means to love people well, and how love and Christianity are meant to be inefficient.  This conversation felt like sitting on a front porch with a couple of southern friends and a glass of lemonade (or bourbon ;) ). It was such a breath of fresh air, and I know you're going to love Eli and be thinking about his words for quite a while.  Follow Eli on Tiktok and Instagram @irvinwithaneye for theology, Star Trek, and other nerdy fun! 

Do you feel like The Church uses language and manipulation tactics to infantilize people? Have you ever met Christians who seemed immature or unsure of themselves? In this episode, Gabriel and Megan talk about the ways they think the Church has kept Christians in a state of perpetual immaturity, the motivations for that manipulation, and how it plays out differently for men and women. They also talk about their own struggles with having to individuate and mature as adults and the discomforts they've experienced as a result.  Sources: We both recommend the movie, Turning Red.  More scandals with Hillsong.

In this episode, we interviewed trauma expert, Elizabeth Power, founder of the Trauma Informed Academy. Elizabeth talked to us about what trauma is, how we can become more resilient, and how we can learn to heal ourselves. She believes we can look to ancient texts for wisdom about how community can heal us and make us able to cope with trauma, and that community is something we are sorely lacking in our society.  Elizabeth is special to both of us and we could have talked to her all day. We think you'll love hearing from her and find her work to be especially needed in our world.  You can find Elizabeth's books and learn more about her work at elizabethpower.com

Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about suicide, drug overdose, and mental illness. Please take care while listening, or skip the episode if this content may be troubling for you.  We are grateful that mental health is a topic that has entered the realm of public conversation. With the normalization of conversations around how we care for ourselves in that way, we have also become aware of the ways the church has failed people when it comes to treating and even just talking about mental illness, suicide, addiction, eating disorders, etc. We believe the church must do better in this regard in order to make a positive impact in the world and stop the use of shaming tactics that injure people further. Mental health should be treated as health care, and the Church should stop treating it like a theater for spiritual warfare.  Topics discussed: drug addiction overdose suicide depression/anxiety eating disorders therapy and medication exorcism faith healing/praying in tongues infertility

We're back! After our break, we spent some time catching up and talking about how important it is to take breaks from the difficult work of Deconstruction. We then discussed the critics of deconstruction, what they are tweeting, and how they have no authority in our lives. We also talked about how we have found peace and contentment that didn't seem possible early in our journeys. We hope this episode is a source of peace for you.

In this episode, Megan poses the question to Gabriel, "why do you choose Christianity?". After leaving his family's faith behind and wrestling with his doubts, Gabriel found a church that provided the perfect space to walk through deconstructing and reconstructing a new faith. He talks about what drew him to the Episcopal church, and what it was like having friends and mentors that provided love and acceptance.  They also talk about the difference between unconditional love and unconditional acceptance, the changing demographics of the Church and what that means for the future, and why people are trapped in abusive relationships with god. It's a very open and meaningful conversation and we hope you enjoy it as much as we did. 

What does it mean to say Jesus is king? Does it mean that he rules with strength and the sword? Does our salvation come from the wealthy trappings of kingship and the power of a heavenly empire? Or do we find salvation in the humanity of Christ? In the Christ that sweat and bled and had to feed and clean his mortal body? Is Jesus a warrior god, descending to earth on a white horse with a sword in his hand? Or is he Christ the Human, who collected dirt between his toes and wept salty tears? Is he a strong god, or a spent god?  These are the questions we wrestle with in this episode, in which Gabriel reads a sermon he recently wrote. If sermons aren't generally your thing, don't worry; this is a sermon that invites discussion and a new perspective of Christ, one that brings salvation through his own humanity and relation to us. We are always asking questions about who Christ is, always searching for better visions of god than what we have been given throughout our lives. This sermon asks us to envision salvation in the form of sweat and blood and love rather than strength and empire and fear. God came to earth to be spent, not to establish himself as king. 

In this episode, Megan and Gabriel talk about Deconstruction as a movement and why Millennials are hard-wired for it. They also talk about the ways in which Christians have co-opted the language of deconstruction to sell books and gain followers, and how to spot those tricks without giving them any money or influence.  Is Deconstruction a movement? Does it need to have more or less structure? Or are we just projecting newness onto the current church exodus because of visibility due to the internet and social media? We want to hear from you! DM us on Instagram @wrestlingwithgodpod or email us at [email protected] For help finding an affirming church, visit www.gaychurch.org.

In this episode, Megan and Gabriel share their experiences attending the Wild Goose Festival, as well as what it has meant to them in their personal and spiritual lives over the years.  Links and References: The video parody about making Christian music was wrongly attributed to Trey Kennedy. It was actually made by John Crist, who I will not link on this platform. I also encourage listeners not to support him by watching his videos as he has been accused by several people of sexual misconduct, for which he has yet to issue a true apology, and instead broke his months-long silence on social media with problematic videos joking about cancel culture. You can read about it here. Nadia Bolz Weber speaks at Rachel Held Evans' funeral.  Wild Geese, by Mary Oliver Chasing the Goose, by Susan Rebecca White, The Bitter Southerner

This episode features special guest and friend of the pod, Julie Ellis Washington! Julie is a nurse and a mother of five who lives in South Georgia. In this touching interview, she tells the story of how she and her husband adopted three of their children, what it's like having and advocating for a transgender child in a small southern town, and how that experience started the process of her faith deconstruction.  We believe that everyone deserves to be both accepted and celebrated in their church, and it can be heartbreaking to find out your church isn't fully affirming. This was Julie's experience when her son came out as transgender, and she has been wrestling with her faith, knowing that she believes in an all-loving god, but doesn't want to settle for a church experience that doesn't fully embrace her son for all he is. We are so thankful there are people like Julie who choose love every day, and who strive to make their corner of the world a more accepting place.  Resources from Julie: Transforming: The Bible and the Lives of Transgender Christians, by Austin Hartke Unclobber: Rethinking Our Misuse of the Bible on Homosexuality, by Colby Martin Shameless: A Sexual Reformation, by Nadia Bolz-Weber Queerology Podcast, hosted by Matthias Roberts Almost Heretical Podcast, hosted by Nate and Tim