Stacking Growth | The B2B Marketing Podcast

Erik Sena, Copy Manager at Refine Labs, shares his creative journey and how AI is reshaping the modern copywriter’s toolkit. This honest and insightful discussion explores the human side of marketing innovation and the future of creative work.Speakers and RolesErik Sena – Copy Manager at Refine Labs; leads brand voice efforts internally and across client accounts, overseeing multiple writers and creative outputSteph Crugnola– Host of Stacking Growth: Called to ActionEvan Hughes – Co-host; provides perspective on marketing leadership and AI pressuresTopics CoveredEric’s path into copywriting via creativity and pop culture inspirationEarly perceptions and hesitations around AI in creative rolesEvolving use of ChatGPT for creative brainstorming and brand alignmentInternal and external pressures driving AI adoption in marketingHuman vs AI: identifying what remains uniquely human in creative outputUsing tools like creative scorecards to evaluate tone and brand matchPredictions for a more human-centric creative futurePersonal growth and reflection in a rapidly changing industryQuestions This Video Helps AnswerHow can marketing creatives embrace AI without losing their voice?What are effective ways to use ChatGPT in a brand copywriting role?How do you balance human creativity with AI-enhanced workflows?What does it mean to stay human-first in a tech-heavy marketing world?What trends are shaping the future of creativity in marketing?Jobs, Roles, and Responsibilities MentionedCopywriter, Copy Manager, Creative Director, Designer, Art Director, Screenwriter, Marketing Leader, AI Prompt Engineer (implied use), Content Reviewer, Stakeholder (internal and client-side)Key TakeawaysAI is best used as a tool for efficiency and ideation, not replacementHuman creativity, emotion, and intuition remain irreplaceable in brand messagingPressure to adopt AI stems from both time constraints and industry evolutionCreative scorecards using AI can help align content with brand toneStaying proactive and adaptable is essential in modern marketing careersTimestamps[0:01:01] Eric shares his early love for storytelling and creativity[0:02:14] Inspiration from Mad Men leads to a career pivot into advertising[0:04:33] Eric’s first real encounter with AI during the MidJourney/DALL-E rise[0:06:25] Why pressure (internal and external) pushed him to embrace AI[0:07:29] Tools used: ChatGPT as a creative partner and editing assistant[0:11:30] Use case: Creative scorecard to measure brand tone alignment[0:14:28] Coping with imposter syndrome and AI fear as a creative[0:19:42] Reflections on being a “multi-hyphenate” creative[0:23:03] Prediction: A return to human-first creativity in the next era[0:25:17] Career advice for new marketers: be proactive, think 10 steps aheadFrameworks and Concepts MentionedCreative Scorecard (internal framework to assess brand tone fit)Human-first marketing (ethos vs automation-heavy workflows)Multi-hyphenate creatives (embracing multiple creative roles)"Iron sharpens iron" mindset in creative improvementAI as thought partner vs AI as creator

This conversation explores how Refine Labs drives measurable B2B SaaS growth through demand strategy, paid media optimization, creative execution, and AI-era marketing fundamentals. Listeners gain a clear understanding of how modern demand generation, positioning, and strategic rigor create predictable pipeline and revenue outcomes.Topics CoveredRefine Labs’ evolution, revenue milestones, and agency repositioningStrategic focus on digital strategy, paid media, creative production, and demand generationThe Brand–Demand–Expand model for allocating budget and improving pipelineData-driven onboarding: audits across paid media, creative, ICP, website, attribution, content, and journey frictionDemand creation vs. demand capture and how to rebalance budgetsFounder-led marketing vs. diversified marketing enginesRetention, upsell, and cross-sell as key growth levers in enterpriseAI’s real impact on marketing, strategy, measurement, and competitive advantageWebsite clarity, LLM discoverability, and digital PR for AI-era visibilityAuthenticity, trust, and human content in an AI-saturated worldQuestions This Video Helps AnswerHow can B2B SaaS companies increase qualified pipeline by 50% or more within 8 months?What should a modern B2B demand generation agency actually deliver?How do you balance budget across brand, demand creation, and demand capture?How should companies approach self-reported attribution at scale?What’s the role of founder-led marketing now that organic reach is declining?When should companies prioritize retention and expansion over new acquisition?How is AI affecting content, measurement, and go-to-market strategy?How do B2B brands optimize for ChatGPT, Perplexity, Grok, and Google AI overviews?Jobs, Roles, and Responsibilities MentionedCEOCOOChief Operating Officer (previous role)FounderAccount ManagementCustomer SuccessPaid Media ManagerMarketing LeaderCFOSalesPost-sale functionsDigital marketing teamsCreative and content teamsKey TakeawaysRefine Labs’ strongest levers remain digital strategy, paid advertising, and creative execution—these consistently deliver measurable pipeline gains.Companies often overweight short-term demand capture; rebalancing budgets toward brand and demand creation improves long-term efficiency.A rigorous onboarding process—auditing ICP, messaging, media accounts, website friction, attribution, content, and revenue history—is essential for custom growth strategy.Founder-led marketing is an asset but not a sustainable long-term strategy; brands need diversified engines not tied to one person.Enterprise companies can drive massive growth from retention, upsell, and cross-sell, often surpassing net-new acquisition impact.Authenticity, human insight, and trust are becoming more valuable as AI makes generic content ubiquitous.LLM visibility depends on consistent positioning, clear messaging, and strong third-party brand mentions—not hacks or shortcuts.AI should be used only where it improves outcomes: better insights, faster execution, smarter experiments, and strategic amplification.Frameworks and Concepts MentionedBrand–Demand–Expand modelDemand creation vs. demand captureClosed-won / closed-lost analysisIdeal Customer Profile (ICP) validationSelf-reported attributionShare of searchDigital buying journey auditRetention / upsell / cross-sell leversAI-powered benchmarking and structured experimentation

This roundtable explores how B2B teams can use modern demand strategies, B2C channels, and incrementality testing to prove true ad impact in 2026. The conversation highlights omni-channel expansion beyond LinkedIn, data-driven measurement, and practical ways to validate lift across pipeline and revenue.Speakers and RolesMatt Sciannella – Host and practitioner running paid media for multiple B2B clients; shares real client use cases, lift results, and practical frameworks for measurement and experimentation.Keith Putnam-Delaney – CEO of Primer; former Dropbox growth leader; expert in B2B expansion into B2C channels, audience targeting, mobile–desktop measurement problems, match rates, and lift testing.Authority: Both speakers bring hands-on experience running B2B paid programs at scale and deep insight into attribution limits, ABM constraints, and cross-channel growth strategies.Topics CoveredRising costs and saturation in traditional B2B channels (LinkedIn, Google).Why B2B brands must expand into B2C channels like Meta, YouTube, Reddit, TikTok.Mobile vs. desktop measurement gaps and cross-device limitations.Signal loss, attribution decay, and the need for server-side events.How to validate true impact using lift tests and incrementality.CPM efficiency comparisons across channels.ABM unbundling and alternatives to large, monolithic ABM platforms.Using holdout groups, geographic lift, and omnichannel testing strategies.Real client examples showing lift in inbound, share of search, and revenue.How audience targeting tools unlock TAM expansion outside LinkedIn.Questions This Video Helps AnswerHow do B2B marketers prove real ad impact without relying on last-touch attribution?How can brands expand beyond LinkedIn and still target ICP buyers effectively?What causes demand generation inefficiency and how do you fix it?How do mobile–desktop and cross-device gaps distort performance data?What is the right way to design lift tests or incrementality experiments?How can small TAM companies still scale using B2C channels?What alternative ABM workflows exist beyond large enterprise platforms?How should B2B teams interpret rising CPMs and shrinking reach?Jobs, Roles, and Responsibilities MentionedB2B growth marketingGrowth teamsSales operations managersRevenue operations rolesVPs of MarketingRegional sales directorsMedical device surgeons (ICP example)Marketing, sales, financeInfosec teamsPLG teamsField marketingOutbound sales teamsKey TakeawaysAttribution alone cannot prove channel value; lift tests reveal true incrementality.B2B audiences exist far beyond LinkedIn, and CPM efficiency is often dramatically higher on Meta, Reddit, and YouTube.Mobile-heavy consumption breaks MTA models; server-side signals and conversion APIs are now essential.ABM can be unbundled using smaller, more flexible tools and alternative data sources.Expanding TAM and using audience targeting unlocks more reach and stronger pipeline outcomes.Share of search is a powerful leading indicator for demand creation impact.Omnichannel experimentation paired with structured test design improves confidence with finance and executive teams.Frameworks and Concepts MentionedIncrementality testingHoldout groupsChannel-based lift testsGeographic lift testsAccount list split testingLeading vs. lagging indicatorsShare of search analysisServer-side conversion APIs (CAPI)Cross-device measurementAudience match ratesABM unbundlingCPM efficiency analysis

0. SummaryThis episode explores how Refine Labs lead designer Monica Beesting navigates creativity, design workflows, and authenticity in the AI era. Listeners gain practical insight into how human-driven creative direction remains essential even as AI tools expand what’s possible in modern marketing.1. Speakers and RolesSteph Cragnola – Host; marketer guiding conversations about growth, change, and modern marketing challenges.Evan Hughes – Host; marketing practitioner offering perspective on industry shifts and AI adoption.Monica Beesting – Lead Designer at Refine Labs; former museum designer turned marketing creative who brings deep experience in visual storytelling, brand identity, and conceptual design.2. Topics CoveredHow designers adapt to the rise of AI in marketingUsing AI to extend creative capability without losing brand voiceHuman art direction vs. AI-generated imageryEthical boundaries and intellectual property considerationsCollaboration patterns inside modern marketing teamsEmotional and professional pressures surrounding new creative toolsMaintaining quality and authenticity in saturated content environmentsIndividual creative processes and where AI fits within them3. Questions This Video Helps AnswerHow should creatives use AI without losing their unique voice or standards?What does “art direction” look like in an AI-driven workflow?How can brands maintain authenticity when AI-generated content becomes widespread?What are healthy boundaries for using AI in creative work?How should marketing teams think about tool adoption and individual creative processes?How do you balance efficiency with originality in a crowded content landscape?4. Jobs, Roles, and Responsibilities MentionedDesigner / Lead DesignerArt DirectorCreative Team / Graphic DesignersMarketersInterns (museum, marketing)Developers / WordPress implementationClient-facing creative roles5. Key TakeawaysAI expands creative possibility but still requires strong human direction to produce cohesive, meaningful visuals.Each designer must identify their personal boundaries and ethical comfort level with AI tools.Creative tools should reduce friction, not introduce complexity—adoption should be purposeful, not reactive.Internal collaboration, especially inside design teams, remains crucial for troubleshooting and skill building.Unique, human-driven storytelling continues to differentiate brands as AI-generated content becomes ubiquitous.Designers can embrace AI as a way to bring imaginative concepts to life—not as a replacement for original thinking.6. Frameworks and Concepts MentionedArt direction for AI-generated imagesImage curation vs. image creationConceptual storytellingWorkflow efficiency vs. creative integrityEthical use of AI and avoiding IP infringement

Refine Labs CEO Megan Bowen joins Evan Kirstel for a deep-dive into how B2B marketing must evolve for the AI era. The conversation covers modern go-to-market models, buyer-centric strategies, and how Refine Labs helps companies drive measurable pipeline growth through data, experimentation, and cultural excellence.1. Speakers and RolesMegan Bowen – CEO of Refine Labs. With 20 years in B2B SaaS at companies like Zocdoc, Grubhub, and WeWork, she brings deep expertise in modernizing go-to-market strategy and redefining marketing measurement.Evan Kirstel– Host and interviewer. Brings over 30 years in tech sales and marketing leadership.2. Topics CoveredThe evolution of B2B buying and selling from the analog to the AI era.Why traditional MQL-based marketing is outdated.The “Brand, Demand, Expand” model for full-funnel growth.Refine Labs’ AI strategy and benchmarking methodology.Alignment between sales and marketing in 2025.The future of content creation and human creativity in an AI-driven market.Building company culture around people-first principles.The Refine Labs Vault: democratizing growth frameworks and insights.3. Questions This Video Helps AnswerWhat’s fundamentally broken about traditional B2B marketing models?Why is the MQL metric no longer a reliable measure of success?How should marketers adapt to buyer-led decision-making?What is the “Brand, Demand, Expand” framework, and how does it work?How is AI transforming marketing operations and customer acquisition?How can companies build a people-first culture that drives performance?4. Jobs, Roles, and Responsibilities MentionedCEO, CMO, VP of Marketing, Sales teams, Customer Success and Account Management, Marketing Operations and Creative roles, Content strategists and paid media managers5. Frameworks and Concepts MentionedBrand, Demand, Expand (three-pillar GTM framework)Ideal Customer Profile (ICP)Buyer-centric marketingAI-powered benchmarksRevenue funnel analysis and pipeline conversion optimization6. Related ResourcesRefine Labs: https://www.refinelabs.comThe Vault: access to Refine Labs frameworks and community.HubSpot (mentioned as part of inbound marketing evolution)Grandin Holdings (Refine Labs investment partner)

Megan Bowen, CEO of Refine Labs, shares the core fundamentals behind modern B2B growth. She explains how buyer behavior has shifted, how marketing must evolve, and what it takes to build a profitable, scalable go-to-market engine rooted in focus, data, and customer understanding.Topics CoveredEvolution of B2B buying: analog → website → dark social → AI era.Aligning go-to-market around buyer behavior.Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) definition and validation.Strategic narrative development using Andy Raskin’s framework.The “Brand, Demand, Expand” model for growth.Simplifying measurement: attribution, share of search, and split-the-funnel analysis.Sales and marketing alignment through shared goals and accountability.Building efficient, profitable revenue systems.Questions This Video Helps AnswerHow has B2B buying behavior evolved and what does it mean for marketers?What are the most important elements of a modern go-to-market strategy?How can you define and operationalize an ideal customer profile?What is a strategic narrative and how does it drive company alignment?How should marketing and sales collaborate to achieve efficient growth?What metrics actually matter when measuring pipeline performance?Jobs, Roles, and Responsibilities MentionedCEO, CMO, VP of Sales, RevOps Lead, Account Manager, Customer Success Manager, Marketing Manager, BDR/SDR, Product Manager, Private Equity Partner, Founder.Key TakeawaysFocus beats complexity: simplify your go-to-market strategy around what works.The best companies deeply understand buyer behavior shifts and adapt early.A validated, data-driven ICP ensures efficiency and profitable growth.A strong strategic narrative, backed by leadership, drives internal and external alignment.Growth requires balanced investment in brand, demand, and expansion.Align marketing, sales, and finance goals to create predictable, sustainable performance.Measurement should prioritize insight and decision-making over vanity metrics.

Refine Labs’ Stacking Growth roundtable, hosted by Matt Sciannella with guest Ky Shaw of DemandOS, dives deep into performance marketing plays that generate real pipeline fast. The discussion covers tactical frameworks for aligning with sales, running direct-response ads, and launching actionable campaigns that drive measurable results in B2B environments.Topics Covered-How to build pipeline through performance marketing plays that actually work-Aligning marketing with sales via pipeline activation projects-Structuring high-intent offers for low-brand-recognition companies-Best practices for direct-response advertising and manual bidding on LinkedIn-Frameworks for upstream problem-solving and content offer creation-Designing tools, calculators, and incentivized demos that convert-Evaluating signal strength and intent from leads-Examples of competitive and industry-specific campaign executionQuestions This Video Helps Answer -How can marketing and sales collaborate effectively to activate pipeline quickly?-What performance marketing plays are working best in B2B right now?-How can you design content offers that signal strong buying intent?-What’s the right way to use incentivized demos without attracting low-quality leads?-How can marketers tailor campaigns for competitive versus novel markets?

Megan Bowen was featured on the most recent episode of Tech Impact, hosted by Evan Kirstel. We're excited today to release the full interview, including extra questions that weren't aired in the TV segment. She touches on the new era of buying behavior, our Brand, Demand, Expand strategy, and how AI has impacted the marketing agency landscape. Want to learn how to thrive in this new era of marketing? Listen in!

Called to Action is back with Sidney Waterfall to walk us through her journey as a marketer blending qualitative data with quantitative insights, and how that can help bridge the attribution gap.Sydney shares her journey and emphasizes the power of qualitative data, like self-reported attribution, and how it complements quantitative analytics to foster business growth. Her unique approach lies in blending both data sets to inform strategic decisions and improve marketing functions. Sydney discusses significant career transitions, emphasizing pivotal moments that shaped her marketing philosophy. Furthermore, she'll share the role of intuition in making strategic marketing decisions and how qualitative feedback can validate gut feelings effectively. Throughout the episode, Sydney illustrates the importance of adapting to changes in marketing paradigms, such as the integration of AI and the growing importance of voice-of-customer data.Episode topics: #marketing, #leadgen, #demandgeneration, #sales, #B2BSaaS, #digitalmarketing #measurement #metrics #sales #marketingalignment #data #attribution______Subscribe to Stacking Growth on Spotify and YouTubeLearn More About Refine LabsSign Up For Our NewsletterConnect with the guest:Sidney WaterfallConnect with the hosts:Evan HughesSteph Crugnola

Our CEO Megan Bowen was a guest on Charles Gaudet's Predictable Profits podcast to talk about the outdated funnel and how to market in the AI era. From Predictable Profits: "If you’re still trying to grow your business with traditional funnels and wondering why your capture, create, convert demand strategy isn’t working, you’re about to discover why those old-school tactics are completely dead. In this episode, I sit down with one of the very few people who actually gets it – Megan Bowen – and we dive deep into the evolution of buyer behavior from the analog buying era all the way through to where we are now in the AI era. We explore why 96% of the buying process now happens before prospects ever talk to your sales team, and Megan breaks down her game-changing framework that’s helping B2B companies completely rethink how they approach demand generation. Trust me, you’re going to want to have a pen and paper handy for this one because we’re going beyond the surface-level funnel nonsense that everyone else is teaching.My guest today is Megan Bowen, CEO of Refine Labs, and she’s someone I have tremendous respect for because she actually eats her own pudding. With over 20 years of experience building and scaling go-to-market teams across B2B industries – including companies that achieved IPOs and acquisitions – Megan co-founded Refine Labs in 2020 with a mission to completely change how B2B companies approach their go-to-market strategies. What I love about Megan is that her leadership philosophy isn’t some theoretical framework from a business book – it’s rooted in real-world experience as an individual contributor, people manager, and executive leader. She understands that without customers, you don’t have a business, and she’s laser-focused on creating the conditions for long-term relationships and meaningful results.KEY TAKEAWAYS:Volume-based funnel marketing fails because high-intent leads convert at 25% while low-intent leads convert at less than 1%Use “split the funnel analysis” to show the dramatic difference between lead quality and stop wasting budget on low-intent leadsBy 2030, nearly 100% of buying decisions happen before sales calls, making self-service information criticalPut pricing, social proof, and competitive advantages directly on your website to eliminate buyer frictionBrand marketing gets you into buyers’ “day one consideration set” before they start searching for solutionsDark social is the invisible 6-12 month buying cycle where prospects research before visiting your websiteCreate content that actually solves buyer problems rather than just promoting your servicesTalk to your customers regularly to understand their evolving needs and grow beyond seven figures Growing your business is hard, but it doesn’t have to be. In this podcast, we will be discussing top level strategies for both growing and expanding your business beyond seven figures.The show will feature a mix of pure content and expert interviews to present key concepts and fundamental topics in a variety of different formats. We believe that this format will enable our listeners to learn the most from the show, implement more in their businesses, and get real value out of the podcast. Enjoy the show.Please remember to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any future episodes. Your support and reviews are important and help us to grow and improve the show."