In the Belly of the Whale

I invited author and theologian David Bentley Hart into the belly of the whale for a dialogue about language as a fundamental dimension of existence and as something that constitutes our very being. It’s a theme that he elaborately discussed more in his book All things are full of Gods: the mysteries of life and mind, and one of his most intriguing philosophical and theological arguments concerning. In fact, his considerations about language seem to become more relevant by the day as the hype around LLMs and generative AI increases. So, we took ample time to flesh it all out. We discussed the structure of language; why it cannot be mechanistically explained; how it relates to mind and life; why “emergentism” is a philosophical fallacy; why LLMs, despite their name, are not language at all; how the current cloud capitalism exposes the spiritual pathologies of our day and age; and why generative AI will never produce consciousness.Timestamps00:00 - Intro02:20 - A summary of David Bentley Hart in 500 words08:13 - Part 1: Language49:08 - Part 2: Generative AI57:14 - A little excursion on cloud capitalism (and whether or not it's a new form of gnosticism)01:07:24 - Part 2 continued***David Bentley Hart can be followed on Substack:https://davidbentleyhart.substack.com/For those who want to read one of David's books which were mentioned:- All Things Are Full of Gods: https://link.amazon/B0fwYRMaj- The Experience of God: https://link.amazon/B09JawT1K***In The Belly of The Whale is hosted by Jonas Atlas.- Website: ⁠https://jonasatlas.net- Substack: https://jonasatlas.substack.com/ - YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@jonas-atlas

A quick announcement for the loyal listeners of the show: I’m changing the name of the podcast. Sometime next week, Re-visioning Religion will become In the Belly of The Whale — or maybe it already has, if this announcement reaches you later.So why the change?When I started the show, I expected it to be mostly academic conversations about the place of religion in society and the many misunderstandings surrounding that topic. I had in mind to present historical and sociological analyses at the intersection of religion, spirituality, and politics, drawing on current research from religious studies and theology. In a sense, I pictured the podcast as a companion to my book Religion: Reality Behind the Myths.But as it turned out, my dialogues ended up focusing much more on metaphysics and philosophy. That certainly wasn’t by design — it just happened, as my own interests shifted and I found myself preoccupied with different questions.So, I think it’s time to acknowledge where the podcast has naturally been heading, and I’ll do so by changing its name.Honestly, not much else is changing. I’ll still be putting out conversations about religion, mysticism, and politicsMetaphysical questions will still be tied to contemporary social and ethical issues. The only difference is that now I’m doing it In the Belly of the Whale. That is to say: it’s no longer intended as a podcast about religion, but rather as a podcast that theologically, philosophically and spiritually reflects on the world we’re living in.Hence the title. In this fast-paced world, we all need some time in the belly of the whale.As Mahatma Gandhi put it: “It doesn’t matter how fast we’re going if we’re going in the wrong direction.” So, there’s a dire need to return to the essentials. The whole of society should take a step back and make space for some thorough contemplation about the manner in which we can properly connect the ontological with the practical and the metaphysical with the ethical. Or – to put it in more religious terms – the heavenly with the earthly.Now, if you’ve been with me for a while, you know I don’t put out episodes very often. That’s probably not changing anytime soon — between my job, my personal contemplative life, and other projects (including podcasts and vlogs in Dutch), there just isn’t a lot of extra room. Still, I hope to see you from time to time in the belly of the whale. In fact, I’ve got a new episode coming up soon, and I couldn’t think of anyone better to mark the occasion than the great theologian and author David Bentley Hart. We first discussed his philosophy of mind, life, and language, and then explored how his insights might help us deconstruct the hype around generative AI and the problematic views of consciousness that are spreading as a result.So stay tuned, and subscribed on whatever podcast app you use — or on YouTube. My dialogue with David will be worth your time, if I do say so myself.

A few weeks ago, I paid a visit to the renowned biologist Rupert Sheldrake. He’s been on my show before, but those conversations were all recorded online. So when I found myself in London for a couple of days this summer, I dropped by his place for a cup of tea.Finally meeting in person, we started off just catching up—talking about our lives and some shared interests. After a while the conversation also turned to some of the bigger challenges we face today in humanity’s collective search for truth on the intersection of spirituality and science. That seemed like a topic that might be of interest for a wider public, so I decided to record that part of our conversation. And I’m glad I did. Considering Rupert’s personal history, few people seem more suited to discuss some of the issues that the so called ‘post truth era’ confronts us with. On one hand, he’s spent decades pushing the boundaries of biology, life, and consciousness, despite fierce opposition from hardline skeptics who dismiss anything that challenges the orthodoxy of mechanistic materialism. On the other hand, he’s always remained a scientist at heart. Even as his work gained traction in spiritual circles, he did not start catering to a more woo-woo spirituality that bases itself merely on intuition or personal experience. Even when exploring topics like telepathy or other paranormal phenomena, his approach always remained grounded in research.So, I was wondering: what can we learn from Rupert’s lifelong journey? How did he manage to stay balanced in his pursuit of truth? How might his approach help us navigate these confusing times, in which we are constantly bombarded with competing ideas, theories, and truth claims? It’s not always easy to separate the solid and the genuinely interesting from the flimsy and the nonsensical—but maybe some of Rupert’s strategies can inspire us to do just that. ---For Rupert's website: https://www.sheldrake.org/For his substack page: https://rupertsheldrake.substack.com/And for his podcast: https://www.sheldrake.org/audios/navigating-consciousness-podcast

Addison Hodges Hart, also known as "The Pragmatic Mystic" (on Substack), is a retired parish priest and university chaplain. As an author, he has written several books on biblical commentary, religious studies, interfaith dialogue, and contemplative traditions. In this episode, Addison joins Jonas for a wide-ranging conversation on Christian monasticism.The discussion begins with Walter Nigg’s book Warriors of God, which explores the founders of monastic orders. Originally published in the 1950s, the book has now been republished by Angelico Press, thanks to Addison’s efforts. This new edition was long overdue, as few books have managed to provide such a thorough, insightful, yet accessible overview of Christian monasticism’s history and the lives of its key founders.Nigg’s observations lead Jonas and Addison into a fascinating exchange on:The essence of monasticism,How monastic founders often subverted the militaristic logic of their time,The differences between Eastern and Western monasticism,The possible future of monasticism,Ways we can integrate monastic practices and spirituality into our own lives.---For more on the new edition of Walter Nigg's Warriors of Godhttps://angelicopress.com/products/warriors-of-godAnd for Addison's Substack page:https://substack.com/@addisonhodgeshart1

Kevin P. Keating is a teacher of English literature at several colleges and universities. He's also a prize-winning fiction author. Jonas invited him for a conversation after reading his latest book Bridge of Dreams. Kevin's book brings together three interrelated short stories of magical realism. He places his characters in seemingly mundane settings and gradually lets them experience a journey through wonder and mystery. Themes like religion, reincarnation, psychedelics, spiritual transformation are constantly present in the background. As such, Jonas saw an opportunity to discuss religion and contemporary spirituality from the perspective of storytelling. Are humans inherently 'story creating creatures', and can religions be seen as the inevitable result of the story telling impulse? Is the supposedly 'secular' world not just yet another form of storytelling and, in that sense, as religious? How do we assess the work op Joseph Campbell in all of this? Has a truncated and commercialized version of his monomyth of the hero become the dominant religious story? How can we breach the dominance of that particular way of telling stories in a culture that has become so accustomed to them? How can we come up with new types of stories that allow more room for the contemporary revival of idealism? What would 'idealist myths' look like? And what about the use of psychedelics in trying to find new stories? Might they be pivotal in creating new stories or do they blind us to unconscious stories we haven't sufficiently faced?---For more on Kevin's book Bridge of Dreams:https://www.collectiveinkbooks.com/iff-books/our-books/bridge-dreams-novelAnd for his website:https://kevinpkeating.blogspot.com/

William T. Cavanaugh is a professor of Catholic studies and political theology at DePaul University. In this conversation, we delve into the arguments he presents in his latest book, The Uses of Idolatry. In contemporary religious discussions, idolatry is often overlooked. The prevailing belief is that everyone should live according to their own faith without categorizing religions as true or false. However, in his fascinating new book, Professor Cavanaugh elucidates how idolatry can be a very useful concept for analyzing contemporary society and for challenging the taken-for-granted boundaries between “the religious” and “the secular.” In so doing, he unites many of the themes he has explored in his previous works into a coherent, overarching argument. Together, we discuss how modernity has filled “the God-shaped hole” with the gods of nationalism and consumerism, revealing that we are not disenchanted at all but rather dominated by the gods of our own making. ** For more on prof. Cavanaugh's book:https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-uses-of-idolatry-9780197679043 For the previous conversation with William Cavanaugh see the episode on Religion, violence, secularism and spirituality Re-visioning Religion is hosted by Jonas Atlasjonasatlas.net

Jessica Corneille is a research psychologist who has recently published the peer-reviewed paper: Spontaneous Spiritual Awakenings: Phenomenology, Altered States, Individual Differences, and Well-Being. The main take-aways for Jonas were: 1. In the field of psychology spontaneous spiritual awakenings (SSA's) are still often either pathologized or not taken seriously enough as profound experiences that can have very beneficial effects in the lives of people. 2. Although their might exist a huge variety of SSA’s, it seems like there’s a common substrate to them. 3. SSA’s that are not drug induced seem to have even stronger impacts than ASC’s brought about by psychedelics. In their conversation they unpacked each of these findings and their implications. --- Jessica's article, which was co-authored with David Luke, can be found on the website of the journal Frontiers in Psychology. -- Re-visioning Religion is hosted by Jonas Atlas. jonasatlas.net

Both Rupert Sheldrake and Bernardo Kastrup are outspoken critics of mechanical materialism. In previous episodes, I already had a conversation with Bernardo Kastrup about his philosophical idealism and how that might influence our view of religion. With Rupert I had an in-depth dialogue about the seven secular myths about religion. However, I was surprised to find out that there were no recordings of the two of them discussing one of their core interests together: consciousness and its relation to the formation of reality. So, I reached out to them and proposed to moderate a talk about the overlaps and divergences in their views. In a sense, this led to a logical follow-up to our previous conversations, since we moved our focus from ‘religion’ to ‘God.’ That is to say, we engagaged in a discussion on the divine essence of existence. Casting a new light on age-old philosophical debates, the conversation explored the inherent consciousness underlying all reality in its deepest depths and highest heights. Rupert and Bernardo reinforced as well as nuanced each other’s perspectives, with a thought-provoking dialogue about the nature of the cosmic mind as a result. For a video version of this conversation: https://youtu.be/Wi1U7Cw4XV0?si=fyXxoTP0mDult2Bt For the previous episode with Bernardo Kastrup: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/re-visioning-religion/episodes/An-idealist-perspective-on-God-and-religion-e1k4cs9/a-a84m765 And for Jonas' earlier conversation with Rupert: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/re-visioning-religion/episodes/Bonus-the-seven-secular-myths-about-religion-e28i54o -----   For more on Bernardo and his work: https://www.bernardokastrup.com/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeDZCa3VrRQvzBlVR-oVVmA https://www.essentiafoundation.org/ https://www.youtube.com/@essentiafoundation ---   For more on Rupert and his work: https://www.sheldrake.org/ https://www.youtube.com/@RupertSheldrakePhD https://www.facebook.com/RupertSheldrake

My guest today is Rupert Sheldrake, a well-known biologist and author of groundbreaking books on science and spirituality. But the roles are a bit reversed this time. Instead of focusing on Rupert's ideas, we talked about one of my own books. As you will hear in the introduction of the conversation, when we originally recorded this podcast a couple of years ago, I had just launched a book in Dutch which tackles the seven main myths about religion. I told Rupert that I hoped to one day publish an English translation as well. And that day has come. At the end of June, the translation was published by IFF books under the title Religion: Reality Behind the Myths.  As such, it seemed like a good idea to put this conversation with Rupert Sheldrake on my own Re-visioning Religion podcast channel. If, afterwards, you feel like reading the book, then you’ll find Religion: Reality Behind the Myths in your favorite online bookstore. Needless to say, it offers a more in-depth look at all the topics I discussed with Rupert and much more. Because of time constraints, we could of course only scratch the surface. Those who’d prefer the video version can find the original on Rupert’s YouTube channel. But if you prefer the audio podcast, then please enjoy the conversation.

A conversation with Liz Bucar. Elizabeth Bucar is a professor of religion at Northeastern University and a leading expert in religious ethics. Jonas and Liz sat down to talk about her latest book 'Stealing My Religion: Not Just Any Cultural Appropriation', which offers an in-depth reflection about the ethical and political dynamics behind various forms of religious borrowing. _____ Photograph of Liz Bucar: Alyssa Stone More info on 'Stealing My Religion': Harvard University Press website.