Why Messy is Good and Structure is Overrated

It’s been quite a year! Kelli and Nolan bare it all in their 2024 wrap-up. Get their must-read books, binge-worthy podcasts, and raw personal journeys - including Kelly's identity crisis and Nolan's toughest year yet. Plus, hear why 2025 might be the year to go 'risk on' and why your company's headcount could be holding you back. No fluff, just real talk from two HR leaders who've been there.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:53) Reflections on 2024(07:24) Best of 2024 - Books(11:13) Best of 2024 - Podcasts(14:47) Sponsor: Metaview(16:20) The Real Talk: Our Raw 2024 Stories(19:16) Bold Predictions and Why 2025 Will Hit Different(28:45) That’s a Wrap 🎁 This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Are digital workers coming for your job? In this episode, Metaview CEO Siadhal Magos— our resident AI expert— breaks down the rise of AI-powered SDRs and what it means for the future of work. From 11x.ai's $75M raise to replace human sales reps, to broader implications for recruiting and tech roles, discover why VCs are betting big on AI labor. This is a candid discussion about job displacement, productivity gains, and why getting your hands dirty with AI might be your best career move.Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINSiadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—CHECK OUT: Metaview: https://www.metaview.ai/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:00) 11x.ai and Their Products (Alice & Mike) (02:03) Discussion of VCs' Interest in AI Labor Market (03:43) Labor vs Software Market Size Comparison (05:37) Evolution of Software Sales Models (07:18) Current State and Limitations of AI SDRs (08:15) Discussion of AI Job Displacement (09:01) Types of Roles Most Affected by AI (12:42) Historical Context of Automation in Tech (14:12) Future of Work and AI Integration (16:39) Sponsor: Metaview (17:59) Company Spending and Hiring Philosophy (20:00) Future of Recruiting and AI Integration (23:21) Historical Job Evolution and Future Opportunities (25:15) Importance of Hands-on AI Experience (26:24) Impact of AI on Engineering Productivity (27:05) AI's Effect on Recruiter Efficiency (27:53) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Ever wondered why your HR team feels like a bunch of separate countries? Tune in as Kelli and Nolan reveal why mixing your People Ops like finger paint might be the secret sauce to scaling – and why that messy feeling means you're actually crushing it.Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:21) Dear Heretics Question: Cross-Functional HR Collaboration (01:11) The Missing Link in HR Teams (02:42) DoorDash's GM Model & Early Learnings (04:36) The Weekly Business Review Magic (05:13) Building One Cohesive HR Experience (07:09) The Color Gradient Approach to HR (08:01) Sponsor: Metaview(09:42) Pod Structure: SWAT Teams for People Ops (10:38) Embracing Regular Reorgs (11:44) Why Messy HR is Good HR (12:29) Mobility as a Silo-Breaker (13:05) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Chris Yeh – author, venture partner, and co-writer of Blitzscaling (with Reid Hoffman) – shares insights from his multifaceted career as a Silicon Valley insider. Yeh discusses staying relevant in tech, the necessary skill of unlearning, and why traveling with potential partners might be the best way to assess compatibility. Yeh gives our listeners a masterclass in adaptability and authentic leadership.Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire athttps://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH CHRIS, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINChris: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisyehNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—RELATED LINKS:* Infinite Learning - Why Unlearning Is The Critical Learning Skill | Chris Yeh | TEDxGrandviewHeights* The Lightning-Fast Path to Building Massively Valuable Companies: https://www.blitzscaling.com/TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro (01:20) Chris's Palpable Energy (02:54) Passion vs Skill (04:08) Charisma in Leadership (08:09) Unlearning Old Things (14:29) Sponsor: Metaview(15:41) Writing a Book with Reid Hoffman (23:57) Picking and Prioritizing Projects(24:58) Staying Relevant (27:15) Blitzscaling: Adaptability & Resilience (32:21) What Would Chris Take Back from Blitzscaling? (37:01) Picking Companies as an Employee (40:25) Assessing a Founder (43:15) Bias in Assessments (45:16) Negotiating Founder Shares (51:55) Choosing Principles over Numbers (51:55) Offer Package Hack (53:28) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Tired of hearing "HR needs to be more business-focused" without any real direction? In this episode, Kelli and Nolan cut through the noise with actionable insights from veteran CPO Jeff Diana. Learn why joining sales calls, understanding your P&L, and getting your hands dirty in customer support might be your secret weapons. Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire athttps://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH JEFF, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINJeff: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-diana-a1906212/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:14) HR is a Business Function: Action vs. Rhetoric(02:09) The Business-First Approach Do's and Don'ts(04:19) Fostering a Deeper Understanding of the Business(06:01) Product Certification and Experiential Learning(06:57) Understanding a Founder's Emotional Investment (even if it seems irrational)(08:52) Knowing the Numbers(13:14) Strategic Time Investment and Knowledge Acquisition(15:56) Including Customer Success in Knowledge Gathering(16:18) Sponsor: Metaview(17:38) Internal Reviews and Cross-Functional Collaboration(19:01) Internal Best Practices and Efficiency(20:47) Growing Fluidity Between HR and other Business Functions(21:14) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Ever wonder what happens when HR leaders get real about C-suite scrutiny? Join Kelli, Nolan and friend of the podcast, Colleen McCreary, as they spill the tea on transforming those dreaded "show me the numbers" moments into power moves. Turns out, the secret sauce isn't hiding from spreadsheets—it's owning them with style.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:14) Increasing Scrutiny of HR budgets from CEOs, CFOs, and Board Members(01:50) Stakeholder Management and Proactive Planning(04:42) Assume Good Intent and Take Ownership(06:35) Earned Trust and Common Experience(08:05) Sponsor: Metaview(09:12) New Roles and Re-establishing Credibility and the CFOs Perspective(10:36) Advice and Next Steps(12:07) Closing and Outro This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

From pioneering parental leave strategies to 3 AM workout sessions, Warner Bros Discovery's SVP of People Donald Knight reveals how vulnerability, authenticity, and physical discipline shape exceptional leadership. Donald joins Kelli and Nolan in a candid conversation about evolving HR, squandered DEI opportunities, and building lasting relationships in hyper-growth environments.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsRECOMMENDED PODCAST:🎙️ Unpack Pricing - Dive into the dark arts of SaaS pricing with Metronome CEO Scott Woody and tech leaders. Learn how strategic pricing drives explosive revenue growth in today's biggest companies like Snowflake, Cockroach Labs, Dropbox and more._KEEP UP WITH DIDIER, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINDonald: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donaldfknight/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro (00:39) Donald's initial reluctance to join HR and his perspective shift (02:32) Evolution of the HR profession (04:06) Pushback against employee-centric HR practices (07:22) The "war for talent" and its aftermath (10:53) The focus on immutable traits in diversity initiatives (14:05) Sponsor: Metaview (15:17) Importance of company stances and differentiation (19:15) Donald's paternity leave plan and its impact (25:35) The recruiting process and its unexpected outcomes (32:45) Donald's experience working with founders (39:50) Donald's favorite interview questions and their rationale (44:30) Donald's fitness journey and its importance (49:20) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Didier Elzinga, Culture Amp's CEO, drops bombshell insights about why most leaders get growth wrong, reveals shocking data about manager vs. leader impact, and explains why treating feedback like an all-you-can-eat menu is destroying companies. Didier sits down with Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church for a conversation about company culture, data, and mapping the world of work on two axes—trust versus mission.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsRECOMMENDED PODCAST:🎙️ Unpack Pricing - Dive into the dark arts of SaaS pricing with Metronome CEO Scott Woody and tech leaders. Learn how strategic pricing drives explosive revenue growth in today's biggest companies like Snowflake, Cockroach Labs, Dropbox and more._KEEP UP WITH DIDIER, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINDidier: https://www.linkedin.com/in/didierelzingaNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(02:50) From Harry Potter to CultureAmp CEO (04:51) CultureAmp in the Film Industry & Anonymous Feedback (08:40) Culture-First Companies & the Importance of Resilience (13:24) Current Trends in Employee Engagement & Expectations (15:12) Sponsor: Metaview(16:24) The Future of Employer-Employee Relationships (19:20) Enduring Truths in Culture & Growth (21:13) Growth, Ambiguity, and Leadership (23:54) Data-Driven Insights & Addressing Gender Gaps (27:20) The Director to VP Transition & Hard Lessons (31:45) Influencing Change & the Power of Data (33:55) The Value & Limitations of Engagement Surveys (37:45) Defining Strategy & the Feedback "Workout" (39:01) CultureAmp's Non-Negotiables & Growth (43:07) The Power of Storytelling & Authenticity(46:32) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

How do you navigate a founding CTO's transition when they're struggling to scale? Kelli and Nolan share hard-won wisdom on avoiding common pitfalls: don't rush to judgment, build trust first, and respect the deep bonds between founders. Instead of plotting replacements, focus on supporting growth - and remember that even the best transitions happen through relationships, not force.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:52) Avoid Premature Judgments(04:43) Nuance and Relationship Building(07:43) Sponsor Message: Metaview(08:55) Further Discussion: Investing in Existing Leadership(11:25) Additional Insights: Truth and Trust(13:02) The Risk of Premature Action(14:23) Summary and Emotional Dynamics(14:46) Board Involvement and Conclusion(15:37) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Melanie Naranjo, Chief People Officer at Ethena, joins Kelli and Nolan to tackle the surge in employee litigation facing modern companies. In an era where employees are increasingly using legal terms like 'discrimination' and 'retaliation,' how can companies balance protecting themselves from frivolous lawsuits while ensuring legitimate grievances are properly addressed?Explore how social media, changing workplace expectations, and generational shifts are fueling this trend, while offering practical insights on navigating these challenges. The conversation balances protecting employee rights with managing unfounded claims, providing valuable perspectives for HR professionals and business leaders trying to build fair, transparent workplaces.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH MELANIE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINMelanie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanie-naranjo/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:10) Rising Employee Litigation(03:25) Traditional & Contrarian Responses(06:10) Deeper Issues & Lack of Transparency(07:30) Subjectivity & Company Liability(09:30) Litigation as a Trend & Setting Expectations(11:40) Employee Perspective & Open Dialogue(15:40) Company Burden & Employee Expectations(15:43) Sponsor: Metaview(18:10) Clear Expectations & Self-Selection(21:40) Internal Training & Consistency(23:20) Value of Community & Legal Counsel(26:10) Key Takeaways & The Bambi Golden Rule(28:08) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com