EP74 - Co-conspirators For A Half-decade with Adrian Fuoco And Mike Sutton
The campaign that delivered a 20 per cent sales boost didn't start with a creative brief, it started with a casual comment. In Episode 74 of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson joins Pizza Pizza CMO Adrian Fuoco and Zulu Alpha Kilo President and CEO Mike Sutton to unpack the half-decade partnership behind "Bipartisan Wings." The collaboration drove a 40 per cent jump in wing sales, a 2025 CMA Best of the Best award and a CEO crediting marketing for brand growth on BNN Bloomberg. 00:00:00.920 — 00:00:19.680 · Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, newly retired CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:23.840 — 00:02:32.250 · Alison Great marketing doesn't happen in boardrooms filled with endless PowerPoints and bloated processes. It happens when brilliant clients and creative partners trust each other enough to move fast, take risks and chase cultural moments that others often miss. My guests today are a perfect example. Adrian Fuoco, Chief Marketing Officer at Pizza Pizza Limited, and Mike Sutton, President and CEO of Zulu Alpha Kilo, helped build one of Canada's most successful client agency partnerships over the last five years. They've created campaigns like "Bipartisan Wings" and "Reverse Tariffs" that don't just win awards, they drive significant business results. Since joining as VP of Marketing in January 2020 and being promoted to CMO in June 2024, Pizza Pizza has really transformed under Adrian's leadership, from a traditional, value-focused QSR into one of Canada's most culturally relevant brands. The results really speak for themselves. Pizza Pizza was named Strategies magazine's Brand of the Year in 2023, won two gold CMA Awards in 2023 and 2025, and their "Bipartisan Wings" campaign closed the show, winning top honours as best of the best for 2025. Most impressively, Pizza Pizza's CEO cited on BNN Bloomberg that marketing initiatives drove growth. Words that every marketer and CMO aspires to hear. Mike Sutton has led Zulu Alpha Kilo as CEO since April 2021, steering the agency to become one of the world's most awarded independent shops. Under his leadership, the agency has expanded to Vancouver and New York, was named AD Age's A-list agency standout in March and achieved platinum status in Canada's Best Managed Companies in 2024. Together, they've proven that when you combine strategic agility, mutual trust and a willingness to say, hey, I'm not above going to jail for this idea, you can create marketing that cuts through in one of Canada's most competitive categories. Their "Bipartisan Wings" campaign drove a 40% jump in wing sales overall and a 47% spike on election night, while the "Reverse Tariffs" campaign delivered a 20% sales boost. Welcome, Adrian and Mike, I am thrilled to have you both here to pull back the curtain on how this partnership really works. 00:02:32.290 — 00:02:33.450 · Adrian Thanks for having us, Alison. 00:02:33.490 — 00:02:34.530 · Mike Thanks, Alison. 00:02:34.570 — 00:02:58.610 · Alison Adrian and Mike, I'm excited to have you here for a bunch of reasons. Getting into the significant business results you're driving is certainly high on the list. But the other part is, despite having hosted this podcast for a few years now, you're the first time that I've had a CMO and their agency CEO join me together. We're going to start with the basics. How did this partnership begin, and what made you both believe this could be something special> Adrian, why don't you kick things off? 00:02:58.650 — 00:04:38.700 · Adrian It was a really fun experience kicking off the partnership, and I think it was a long coming. So, you know, I'd say first, Alison, just in terms of what I thought could be special was I was excited to work on the Pizza Pizza brand. And that brand, you know, Mike and I both grew up in Ontario. And if you grow up here, Pizza Pizza was around your entire life, basically in one way or another. And I always got a kick out of some of the marketing that Pizza Pizza had done over the years and some of the wild sports promotions. And I remember one time where you could, you know, they would send you a VHS tape along with your pizza at Christmas time or movies and all kinds of fun stuff. And so I was just generally excited to be able to take a look at that brand and sort of understand how had they achieved all of that. And when I got to Pizza Pizza, I realized that a lot of that had just been achieved, you know, in house with a small, scrappy group of people who had done really amazing stuff. But what intrigued me was, you know, wow, what would happen if you were able to hand, you know, partner with one of the top creative shops and strategic agencies in Canada? Where could you take it beyond where it had already gone? So that was that was the part for me that was exciting. And then in terms of how the partnership began, it was really just a phone call. I knew Mike and Zach over the years working in the industry, but we hadn't done too much together. And so I just thought, wow, this would be really fun. This is a top tier crew, and if they'd be at all interested in partnering with us, we could probably really do some amazing work. And also that we would probably see some great results, which of course was important as well. And we were able to achieve all of that, I must say. And here we are. 00:04:38.740 — 00:04:41.020 · Alison So, Mike, what would you add from an agency perspective? 00:04:41.060 — 00:05:36.460 · Mike From an agency perspective, one of the things I'd say, as I sort of reflect back on those early conversations with Adrian, was thinking about like, great partnerships are grounded in a shared ambition. And so the thing that was immediately clear is that the ambition that Adrian had, what he wanted to do with marketing, really lined up well with the type of work that we like to do. So that was certainly business impact, but also about sort of mutual belief in the type of work that we can do together. So there was just this shared ambition from the very beginning. It isn't about one side presenting and one side approving to real shared ambition in terms of the type of work that we wanted to do together. And I like to think of it as us being co-conspirators. Yes, it's a client agency relationship, but really we're co-conspirators in trying to do amazing work for this really iconic Canadian brand. 00:05:36.500 — 00:05:56.020 · Alison One of the things that really struck me about your partnership is that the core team on both sides has remained intact for five years. And maybe part of that is because you are co-conspirators. But in an industry known for turnover, that really is remarkable, so I'd love to share what's contributed to that stability, and why do you think it matters for the work that you produce? 00:05:56.060 — 00:06:58.670 · Mike Yeah. I mean, for those listening who may not know, you talk about turnover, the last stat I saw was around 25%. Like, just think about that for a minute. Where imagine a world where you have 25% of your staff turning over year over year. The last few years we've hovered around 10% ,kind of thing. So we're not up there. But you're right, the industry has a significant amount of turnover. So what do I attribute to, like, I think clarity and candour is a big part of what works in the partnership. And then yes to consistency on the team. So we absolutely have that over the duration of the five years we've been working together. But the other important piece is like adding fresh energy throughout the partnership as well. So to me, that's always the perfect balance, is that you want that consistent core team, but then you always want to have fresh energy coming in and bringing fresh ideas to interpret the brand platform as we have it. And I think that's how we keep things fresh. And that's a big part of my job in making sure that the right people are coming onto the business at the right time. 00:06:59.030 — 00:07:28.910 · Alison That's such an important balance. And if our listeners weren't enticed earlier, they're certainly going to be enticed by how to get from 25% turnover down to 10% turnover. Now, Adrian, you mentioned when you joined Pizza Pizza that there was a very well-established internal creative department handling 99% of the work, and then you brought in Zulu as an agency partner. Now, let's be honest, that could have been a disaster. Egos clashing, turf wars, a real mess. Instead, it's become a real model of collaboration. So how did you navigate that potentially explosive situation? 00:07:28.950 — 00:09:11.880 · Adrian Yes. Um, well, I think personally, I believe in the model where you could have both an internal group and an agency partner and that that could actually create a system versus sort of competition. And so there'd be some things that one group could do and some things the other group could do. And what I found was, you know, the internal team, yeah, someone new comes in, and you could be concerned. What are they going to do? What about my job security and all the things that we've built? And so first thing I found was just to give them confidence that, no, I think that, you know, the leadership believes in you, and the leadership thinks that what you're doing is of great value. But let's take a look at the entire needs of the brand and let's have an honest conversation about, you know, if we were to do more brand equity building marketing, do we truly have the skill set to do that kind of stuff in-house? And the truth is that somewhat. But the team's really focused on the day to day sales, keeping the restaurants looking good, you know, getting all of the materials versioned. And with all of that work, that's a full time job right there. There really was no need to bring in a third party to do that. So then it's like, okay, if we want to add complementary marketing into that system, let's work together, be a part of that process. I think that's another really important part, right? If you are going to bring in a third party, an agency partner from out, and you have an internal team already in place, make sure they're part of the process. Don't kind of go off in isolation, and here you go. The third part, I would say, is just when it comes down to individuals, the people that were here were very confident and skilled and very collaborative people. So personality-wise, I just I just could tell that was never going to be an issue for us. And then the same thing at Zulu's end, we definitely had the conversations right up front to sort of say, look, we have people here that do certain things and we think they do them really well. So I don't think there was any true territoriality. It was understood what everybody would be doing together. 00:09:11.880 — 00:09:22.480 · Alison And Mike, from an agency, obviously it was, you've got two creative teams, one in-house, and the Zulu team. So it's important for you to be sensitive to that as well. So how did that change your approach? 00:09:22.640 — 00:10:51.320 · Mike The truth is, now, and even five years ago, most if not all of our clients have an in-house team. So this is the reality of business now and an important way of working. I mean, the pitfalls happen in those scenarios when you have really blurry roles, right? And, you know, Adrian mentioned competition, but I found that sometimes there can be an unspoken competition. Again, what Adrian did a great job of right off the bat was again confidence to his team. Confidence in our team. Everything was on the table. So there wasn't any unspoken competition. The other thing that Adrian, I like, you talked about designing system versus it's like just dividing the work. Okay, you do this, you do this. We sat down at the beginning of this year again, the team looked at the calendar designed for the year in terms of, okay, Zulu, we're pulling you in here, here, here and here at these key moments. There's a real mutual respect amongst our teams. Our creative people can talk directly. So it's not like, you know, me or one of our account directors is always in the middle. The creative people can speak directly, which I think is really important and a signal of a great working relationship. And you know what? We share wins and we share credit. So when there is a win, we're all winning together. It's not like, oh, so-and-so did this. It's just like, it's a it's a real team win. And actually at the CMAs. It was, that was a really special moment. You know, winning the the top prize of the night. And the full team was there to celebrate together, including Adrian's in-house team. So it does really work. 00:10:51.360 — 00:11:14.040 · Alison It really was amazing to see everyone come up on stage. Thank you both for sharing me some really important guidelines on how to have such a successful partnership. Now, Adrian, in an earlier conversation, you made a really important point about understanding what the agency needs to succeed and not just what you need from them. So can you talk about how thinking about their business and not just drone has shaped this partnership? 00:11:14.120 — 00:13:29.210 · Adrian That was something that, for myself and for the team here was a priority from the beginning. I think a lot of it is that way of thinking is borne out of just experience. And you think of the great agency partnership that I've had over the years, and it was really an understanding that there's an opportunity here for mutual benefit for both organizations. You know, just like any relationship should be that way. And then that means you have to have a little bit of empathy and understanding and sort of ask yourself, okay, well, yes, they are providing a service, but they also need to, you know, build their own brand and they need to build their own personal profiles and all of those things. And so have some empathy and say, what are the things that are important to the agency and, and how can I help provide those things? And then in turn, if I do that, what potentially are going to be the incremental benefits for Pizza Pizza? And so obviously the agency, other than they need to make money and they need to be able to invoice and bill and do all those things, they need to raise their profile in the industry. They need to be able to showcase to other clients that they do great work, and they need to do that great work in order to recruit the best people. And so if we can help provide them opportunities to do the kind of work that's going to achieve those goals, while at the same time building our brand and driving our sales, and that's going to be great. And then, of course, if we're able to do that, and then you're giving the agency work that's important to them. You know, not every project is going to be super exciting. Definitely, there's projects that we're we're up on the stage and there's lots of other ones where they just drive a specific goal or, you know, there's something that we need to say. And Zulu does a great job helping us with those too. But those sort of marquee projects, if we're able to do a few of those, I find usually the work is great and gives the brand great recognition, but also the better the work you give to the agency, the better people they put on your business. So many times when we're meeting with Mike's team, they'll say, oh, you know, we've got a new team that came on board and they're just, you know, they really want to work on Pizza Pizza. They're excited to come work on Pizza Pizza. And so we want that, right? We want to make sure that we're getting the best people supporting our business. So yeah just a little bit of understanding of what's what's important to everybody. And trying our best to be able to provide that. 00:13:29.250 — 00:14:03.620 · Alison For your brand, to be the brand that everyone at the agency really wants to work on, is such a powerful position to be in, and absolutely is a great way to ensure that you're going to continue to deliver great work. Now, Mike, when we were talking, you shared a pretty legendary quote from one of the creative presentations where Adrian said, "I love this idea and I'm actually not above going to jail for this." That's a pretty high bar for creative bravery. What creates the environment where a CMO feels empowered to say yes to such old, potentially risky ideas? 00:14:03.740 — 00:15:05.420 · Mike When you're in a leadership role and in this case, you're in a room with your agency partner and you say something like, I mean, and let's not romanticize risk here, right? Like, I mean, obviously Pizza Pizza is a it's a big business. There, there there are risks that, you know, you want to look at. But what it says to the team of people that have the ownership and accountability for this brief that we have is it's conviction. You've got a client that's saying you have permission to be bold, when you hear something like that and you've got a client who is going to have your back and champion ideas and get just as excited about them as you are. And so you want people knocking on the door at the agency to say, when's the next Pizza Pizza brief coming? Can I get on that? And so I think saying, hey, look, I'm not above going to jail for this is a pretty strong signal that you've got a client who believes in the power of creativity and who has a very high bar for ideas and has the conviction to go to jail, potentially for it. 00:15:05.460 — 00:15:07.140 · Adrian I don't. I'm terrified of jail. 00:15:07.180 — 00:15:19.820 · Mike He's terrified of jail. So, um, anyway, that was, that is a memorable, and if there's ever a book written about the Pizza Pizza - Zulu Alpha Kilo relationship, there is going to be a chapter, I'm sure, called I'm Not Above Going to Jail. 00:15:19.940 — 00:15:22.420 · Alison And, Adrian, we promise we're not gonna take you literally. 00:15:22.420 — 00:15:30.460 · Adrian I'm looking out my office window here on, uh, on Kipling Avenue as we have our discussion. And I actually look straight into the jail, which is across the street. 00:15:31.260 — 00:15:33.500 · Mike Well, the commute, the commute won't be too far then. 00:15:33.500 — 00:15:35.620 · Adrian It's too real. 00:15:37.260 — 00:15:37.980 · Alison Now Adrian, your brand has become known for jumping on cultural moments, "Bipartisan Wings" during the U.S. election to "Reverse Tariffs" and responding to trade tensions. You mentioned you're basically 80% planned and leave 20% flex for moments that come along. So how do you build that agility into your marketing operation? 00:15:55.940 — 00:17:30.110 · Adrian Well, that's a real challenge for us and our partners. One thing that allowed us to get to that place was just, I guess, best laid plans or however people describe it. Even if you have the great desire to have your year 100% planned out and you're gonna stick to that strategy and stick to that plan, I mean, I can't really think of of a time where we've pulled that off. So, you know, maybe if that's the reality, then just say, well, let's just build that into our system to say, you know what? Let's, if we could if we could achieve 80% in September of 2025, if we have a plan and come the end of the next year or the end of 2026, that we've achieved 80% of our plan, that will be a win and the other 20% will be sort of flex. So we just said, well, if there's going to be flex, let's just, let's just plan for it. That allows you to set a little bit of money aside, set a little bit of bandwidth aside, set a little bit of hours with Zulu aside so that when those moments come up, you're not scrambling to find the resources in order to make it happen. And, you know, I don't know if it's always been like this, but certainly the last few years, you don't have a lot of advance notice. And usually the best cultural moments just sort of land in your lap, you know, unexpectedly. So if you're going to try to react to those things authentically in a way where it almost feels planned, I think a few of the ones that we pulled off do feel planned, as opposed to pulled off over a weekend. But again, if you kind of pre-planned not to be planned then, then it gives you a little bit of a better chance of success of actually pulling it off. 00:17:30.270 — 00:17:46.750 · Alison And to assure there's capacity so that you can be agile when the moment arises. And then I'm sure there's an excitement of teams can really gel over what a cool opportunity and if we move quickly, we can be the first and only to seize this. I would think that that would help inspire both the brand team and the agency. 00:17:46.830 — 00:18:28.440 · Adrian It really does. And I don't know if there's any science to this or not, but I find when you have those moments and you know, brands, we all try and jump on them. But sometimes if you're not ready to go, you know, you just it's like a post. It's like a static image that you put up on Facebook saying, hey, you know, X thing we're talking about it. You can kind of get a sense that it's sort of a knee jerk thing. That's the last minute we're going to tape a slice of pizza to a wall to react to the banana to the wall artwork or whatever. Whereas if you are able to do some of these things the way we've done them, and you actually have enough time and resources to build what looks like a proper series of advertisement. So it gives you an opportunity to maybe to add a little bit more polish to these moments, and that could be an edge as well. 00:18:28.720 — 00:18:46.240 · Adrian Now, Mike, you mentioned that the reverse tariffs idea actually came from Adrian. He threw it out in one of your meetings and basically said "if Trump's doing tariffs, what if we did a reverse tariff?" So that challenges the traditional view of where ideas come from. So talk about why does it matter who has the idea and how that mindset can really shape your collaboration. 00:18:46.240 — 00:19:47.160 · Mike So much of the work that we do, there's this constant cycle of ideas that are happening, whether they be responding to cultural moments or whatever. And so it really doesn't matter where the idea comes from. And I mean, part of the founding philosophy of our agency is that, again, we're all creative, right? We are all creative, and the sort of universal belief in the power of creativity and what it can do, whether it's client, strategist, account person, creative team, it doesn't really matter. And so I love that story that Adrian just throws out this thought in a meeting. And then the team rallies around it. And immediately instead of shutting things down, and, what if? Okay, let's roll with that and see where it goes. And then again, like I mentioned earlier, again being generous with credit. So I don't know, maybe some agencies would have an issue saying, well, actually the seed of that idea came from the client. Who cares? I think that's fantastic. So I love it. Talking about speed. This was a fast one, not days. It was like an hours kind of situation, basically. 00:19:47.480 — 00:19:53.920 · Alison I would like to take a moment out of this episode to thank the Earnscliffe team for helping bring CMA Connect to our listeners. 00:19:56.880 — 00:20:23.120 · Alison Earnscliffe is one of Canada's leading independent communications firms, with teams across Canada and expertise spanning public relations, public affairs, digital marketing, data and design, Earnscliffe brings together national reach, regional insight and coordinated expertise to help clients make sense of complex issues to build trust and deliver results. To learn more about Earnscliffe team and Integrated services, visit earnscliffe.ca. 00:20:26.320 — 00:20:46.040 · Alison Now it's clear that the creative at Pizza Pizza is really, really high and that if something isn't hitting the mark, it doesn't happen, that there's no sort of, well, we've got to get to market quickly, so 70%, it's good enough, let's go. Adrian, how do you maintain that standard when you're also getting hourly sales reports and pressure is on to drive results right now? 00:20:46.480 — 00:22:20.570 · Adrian A big part of that is for us, there's always a baseline of activity that isn't necessarily podcast-worthy, you know, or award stage worthy that we have running constantly to support the business and those areas of marketing, whether it's through Search or whether it's other, more P Max type channels, we can flex those up and down as needed to support the day to day sales needs of the business, and we do that all the time. So when we're talking about most of the work that we're doing with Zulu Alpha Kilo, a lot of that is brand equity building tied to a product launch, where maybe there's a little bit of flexibility if we need to move a few days here or there. It's not it's not going to be the end of the world. So in those situations, I think there's a buffer of activity that that will keep the brand moving forward. And that gives us the opportunity to make sure that sort of the higher profile brand work is executed just the way that we want, right? And so another part of that is sometimes with something we're feeling, it's a little bit further on the edge or maybe a little bit riskier in terms of will this work and will we get it just right, the marketing department will kind of keep that project close to our hip for as long as we possibly can. Maybe a select group of people are aware, and that way you're just not in one of these terrible situations where you've promised this great thing to your franchisees and to the entire company, and then you have to embarrassingly go back and delay install. So we'll, on some of those projects, we'll try to hold on to it as long as humanly possible, so that when we do tell everybody that it's coming, the timing and the execution plan is a sure thing. 00:22:20.730 — 00:22:40.050 · Alison You get hourly sales reports delivered to your phone, so that's real-time accountability that QSR and retail have in common, but many marketers don't deal with. And in that is both a blessing and a curse. So how do you balance the gift of real time data with the danger of making reactive decisions based on one bad afternoon of sales? 00:22:40.370 — 00:22:43.090 · Adrian Yeah, that's very difficult. One thing is you need to have the confidence of your executive peer group and the CEO and the people that are going to be making the decisions as to whether or not some sort of reaction needs to happen. So I think we're fortunate here that we have that confidence and our partners have that confidence. And so I have the aperture to sort of say, okay, well, you know, we need to be looking for patterns here as opposed to, you know, like a moment. We're more interested in what's the trend that's happening that we can react to as opposed to what happened this afternoon. It can be really difficult. And the other thing is you have to be careful not to fluff those things off, right? So if you are having a really bad couple days or a bad week, you know, I wouldn't recommend sort of saying, ah, it's no big deal. We'll figure it out. People don't enjoy hearing that. And so I think some of the words that you use in terms of saying, yes, we're well aware, we've had a bit of a challenging period. We do feel confident in the strategy. We are taking a look at the longer term. Do we have a potentially sustained issue or is there some sort of blip going on? You know, take a look at the calendar, what's happening in sports, what's happening in the weather? Maybe this is something that we need to wait a little while and weather. So, some of it just is just, you know, a little bit of confidence and having the right support and just making your way through it. Of course, it does get to a point where, yeah, you may have to make a change, but I'd rather be a little bit planned out than sort of in the moment, because that can be really demoralizing for the team and our partners if you're constantly changing direction. 00:24:13.620 — 00:24:40.140 · Alison And you make such a good point, as marketers are always aware of what customers are thinking and how they're reacting. But you have another really important audience in your franchisees who are running their own business across the province, have staves and mortgages that they're responsible for, and that's a lot of pressure. So understanding where they're coming from and not being dismissive about what a slow day of sales actually can mean for them, is really important to building that customer relationship. 00:24:40.180 — 00:24:40.940 · Adrian Absolutely. 00:24:40.980 — 00:24:59.420 · Alison Now, Mike, you shared that the "Fixed Rate Pizza" actually started as a low investment social post. You saw it gaining great traction and then you invested in broadcast and above the line media. And that's often the inverse of how campaigns work. So what did that teach you about sort of testing before going big? 00:24:59.780 — 00:26:09.940 · Mike Yeah, I mean that's going back to 2022 and consumer prices were skyrocketing. I think it was like an 8% increase year over year. And so much of that campaign was about timing. We presented this idea that was all about parodying bank advertising a bit and seeing pizza as a financial asset, which is kind of a head-turner a bit, right? And so, again, rather than launch like a fully fleshed out integrated campaign, we launched with a social post. And again, you talked about real time data and seeing response. So obviously looking at that in sales to say, okay, we're going to have an extra large pizza with four toppings, and we're going to hold the price at $16.99. Is that going to get traction? Is that going to break through? And what we saw through social listening, we saw it get some heat, right? People started talking about it. And then it was only months after that where Adrian said, okay, we're going to brief in a more integrated campaign here, and we're going to free up the budget to make this much bigger than the way it started. And so starting from a position of real confidence, because we already knew that this was getting some positive reactions, positive sentiment from consumers. 00:26:10.020 — 00:26:49.470 · Mike Just to add to that, the other part is just you talk about an understanding and a respect for the skills of your partner. And so Zulu had given us this great idea. And just like Mike said, it kind of was taking off. And then it was like, wow, like, imagine if we gave them the opportunity to fully flush out a campaign and fully flush out a 30 second brand sell for this. And Pizza Pizza at that time hadn't done something like that in years. And so I felt very confident and obviously played out that way. We already know that people respond to the idea, and now we've got this top creative shop here who could just take it to the next level. And so that gave us confidence that, wow, there's still a lot of legs left in this thing with the right creative. 00:26:49.750 — 00:27:08.230 · Alison Adrian, in a recent quarterly reporting call, your CEO cited marketing as a key reason you were outperforming on sales. It's quite rare when most CEOs don't publicly credit marketing in that way. So how did you build that relationship where he sees marketing as a revenue driver and not a cost centre? 00:27:08.310 — 00:27:33.070 · Adrian Well, I think part of it is just fortunate that, you know, Paul Goddard, our CEO, is great and he loves marketing. And he, you know, he doesn't just value marketing, he gets a real kick out of it. And so that's just fun, right? Where your area is of personal interest to him. So that, coming over to Pizza Pizza I was aware of that. And that was another thing that attracted me to coming here was just the attitude of the leadership team towards, you know, our craft. 00:27:33.230 — 00:28:10.600 · Alison It can make such a difference just in how effective you can be and how you can build a stronger partnership knowing that if it's embedded in both culture of the brand and the business, then it's one less fight that you need to take on. Now, Adrian, you mentioned the weight of accountability, and with 700 franchise owners depending on you to drive sales, the CEO publicly crediting marketing for growth, that's wonderful in many ways and also a ton of pressure. So how do you manage through the inevitable tough weeks when all eyes are on you? We talked a bit about that like half day sales thing, but I want to drill down a little bit more on when there really is some softness in sales. How do you react? 00:28:10.640 — 00:29:33.160 · Adrian Go to the bathroom and cry alone. No, you know what I mean, there is a nugget there which is part of handling the pressure is how are you handling it internally, and how are you projecting out to the team and to your partners? I think that's really critical, right? You don't want the whole group living in a fool's paradise if things aren't going well. But at the same time, you do have a responsibility to sort of, you know, steady the ship and give everybody confidence that we have a great plan and we have great initiatives underway, and we'll find our way through it. And the truth is, in QSR for an established brand, everybody, it's ups and downs, that's the nature of the business, right? I mean, it's just, you're not going to grow every single day. So that's another part of it is just understanding that expectation, right? And sort of pushing towards the good days and staying positive in the tough ones. But it's good for the job security of the people that can handle it, because it is a really difficult task and it's not something that can be taught. It just has to do with your attitude and of course, confidence in your strategy, right? If you feel really good, that look, we put a lot of thought into this strategy. We're well aware of what the competition is doing. We feel not just with our creative partner, a strategic partner, but of course our media partner and others that we've got people supporting the business who know what they're doing. We're confident that we know what we're doing. So you don't want to be overconfident, but a little bit of confidence can go a long way and say, no, no, we're good. Like if after a while it's not working, then yeah, we can make some adjustments. 00:29:33.200 — 00:29:38.560 · Adrian And Mike, from an agency partner perspective, how do you and the team step up to support in those moments? 00:29:38.760 — 00:30:24.200 · Mike Well, I think first of all, the team understands the responsibility that, you know, Adrian and his team have. And yes, although the work we're doing is building brand equity, there's also an expectation that we're going to see the cash register respond as well. So I think that awareness within the team of what we're trying to do is important. And then I think just responsiveness right? Adrian and the team know, like, pick up the phone, call us. Transparency. Be really communicative. Because the more we understand about what's happening, the more we're going to be able to help. And sometimes that might mean we need to move really, really quickly. And sometimes that might mean we need to pivot and go in another direction because something's changed that we didn't know when we briefed on a project. 00:30:24.320 — 00:30:47.440 · Adrian So, Adrian , you made a fascinating comment that many marketers say, I wish I had more influence. And I hear that every day. There is a downside to it when you have as much influence as you do. You're often in a meeting with five executive colleagues and AI comes up, changing the business comes up and all eyes focus on you to solve the problem. So talk about how you navigate that double-edged sword. 00:30:47.640 — 00:32:12.050 · Adrian Well yeah, it can be challenging, particularly if it's an organization where people are relying on marketing for a lot of those answers, and sometimes you don't have them ready in the moment. So I think the first thing is, if you have a really solid leadership team, you know, where you've got each other's backs. And so where, yeah, something's coming my way, whether it's, hey, this is, what's your point of view on AI or what's your point of view on the fact that sales in this province stink? And so I think you need to be prepared for those discussions in advance. But then also you need to have people that you're with who you can say, well, you know, you know what? I don't have all the answers right now. Let me go back and we're going to get a solid point of view. We'll come back to the team with a plan. And I think, you know, the other part of it is everybody knows that we all have a weight of responsibility to move the business forward. It's not just marketing, right? So I don't think anybody deep down truly believes that. And so it's just making sure that, you know, you also have a culture where, yeah, it's understood that there's a shared responsibility here and everybody contributes in different ways. And so I'm not saying you want to push back and deflect and that kind of thing, but I think that just comes back again to empathy of all the different accountabilities that people have. And maybe it could be a different conversation earlier where a different group is having a struggle, and if you are able to be supportive of them in that moment and be empathetic to the pressure that they're feeling in that moment, probably you're going to fare better when the pressures and the spotlight is on you. 00:32:12.370 — 00:32:30.890 · Alison Well, said. And Mike, having led an agency, I also know that from your perspective, there are times like AI and others where you have a number of your clients reach out and really looking to the agency for support, which is absolutely what you want as an agency, but it puts a lot of pressure on you as well. So I'd love to hear how you answer the question. 00:32:30.930 — 00:33:41.180 · Mike Yeah, you know what? I, like, it kind of speaks to the importance of, again, just the marketing leadership as a profession, really. Think about the responsibility, the weight, has certainly gotten bigger and broader. Like Adrian, I think about the responsibilities on product innovation side of things, the responsibility purely on the marketing side of things. There's the customer service piece of it. Alison, you mentioned technology, consumer trends and marketing innovation and the list goes on and on and on. And heads do turn to the marketing leader. And what an amazing privilege that is, right, for marketers to be the ones to have the responsibility to solve that. So I love that. And I think in my role too, I have the, like the real pleasure of actually taking action against those things. And I mean, what I loved is I get to decide what I do. I don't have to call anybody and ask for permission to solve one of these things, or hey, we need to pivot and put a whole bunch more resources on a client issue because it's really, really important. And I don't have to ask anybody for permission. We can just go ahead and do that. But all of that responsibility and the weight of it is what you do about it. You know, having a bias for action is key. 00:33:41.460 — 00:34:21.620 · Alison That's great. And Adrian, I know you joked about going and crying in the bathroom, but it's such an important acknowledgement to say, like, as leaders, we have to put on a brave face. We have to be transparent with our teams and partners. But we also have to acknowledge there's a huge weight on our shoulders and find a time, whether it's crying in the bathroom, going for a run, however you deal with it, to acknowledge that and give yourself some grace before you then charge ahead. So I think it's a great important lesson that we can all take away for sure. Now, I have definitely learned some of the most powerful lessons the hard way, whether it's a mistake or just an outright failure. So before we celebrate all of your wins, I would love you each to share a misstep and what you learned from it. 00:34:21.659 — 00:36:07.630 · Adrian I mean, fortunately, I can say this is when I was more junior, so not as big of an issue now, but sort of client side, the brand side. The biggest mistake that I ever made, or that I have very often seen others make, is not trying your best to fully understand the complete business that you're operating in. So, you know, in this case, I'm here in the restaurant business and I'm a marketer. That's what I love to do. I love to build strategies and campaigns and ads and all that fun stuff. But the reality is, is that this this is a pizza making business. And this is a franchising business. And you know, you might be surprised. This is a construction business, this is a real estate business, this is a supply chain business. And so all of those other things are connected to what we're doing. You know, where we choose to put a location, that's going to have an impact on marketing and how the food arrives and the products are built and shipped and all that stuff has an implication on marketing. And so if you just sort of made a decision like, no, I'm just going to I'm just going to do the ads and buy the media. And that's my role. I just, I really feel that you're going to you're going to struggle if you don't understand the bigger picture of the business. And also you're going to not have a lot of credibility outside of the four walls of marketing, which is also a challenge. Right? You've all been in this position where you feel like you're constantly doing a pitch job internally to convince people of what you're doing. And, you know, if you take the time to understand what other people are doing and how the how the system operates and of course, how the company makes money financially and all those critical things, you just have better credibility. First of all, you're going to have better plans. And also it's going to be easier for you to merchandise those around the company and get people on board because you're speaking from a place of authenticity and knowledge of the business. 00:36:07.910 — 00:36:32.670 · Alison That is such important advice, and I hope everyone that's listening, regardless of what level, really takes the time to absorb that, because it can make such an incredible difference in building relationships, your credibility and your enjoyment of the job, like having that depth and understanding of the business, what your colleagues are also responsible for. It can also lead to some really great ideas when you dig into the business and understand it. 00:36:32.710 — 00:37:38.430 · Mike You know what, when I think about mistakes and I made this one more than once. So much of my role now is about like setting the conditions internally here at the agency, setting the conditions in our client relationships for us to do the best work that we can do. And one of the lessons I've learned more than once is waiting too long to address something that feels slightly off in a partnership. And it's not even a scenario where like, okay, something's like really broken. It's more, again, maybe there's a little misalignment. And I've convinced myself that maybe I can manage around something, but I think those small misalignments don't stay small. They get big. I guess what I've learned is to address those things much earlier on. Not confrontationally, but address them with a lot of clarity, a lot of empathy, just to create a better foundation for partnership. And so I think I've gotten much better at that. You know, we all have instincts, right? And I have learned to really trust my instincts. I think as my career has gone on and act on those things versus push them away and deal with them head on. 00:37:38.470 — 00:38:04.240 · Alison That was a great follow on. And when you think about, the more you let it fester, the bigger it becomes, the harder that conversation also becomes when you need to address it. So yeah, it's super valuable learning from both of you. So now let's move to most proud moments. And I know you both have a ton of those, so this might be the hardest question I ask, but if you have to pick one of your favourite successes together and you each get to pick one, what are you most proud of and why. 00:38:04.840 — 00:39:28.080 · Adrian It's so recent. Obviously Mike and I jumping up on stage with the team to the Best of the Best last year. We were all gushing with pride at the CMAs. I mean, that was super cool. And you know, I think a big part of that is we're a medium-sized brand, Zulu is an independent agency. And so for that, that level of recognition, especially when we talk about, you know, just sort of this conversation and where it started from small scrappy team on a great brand, kind of doing DIY, you know, full circle to you're up there on the biggest stage accepting the show closer. That to me was a great moment of pride. And the other thing related to that is just I'm extremely proud to have personally a thumbprint on a brand. Like I feel that, you know, people, they'll say, oh, Pizza Pizza, you guys have done some great stuff and you've seen a lot of changes and this and that, and I, I feel like we're getting close to building sort of a legacy that, you know, at some point I will move on and the team will move on. But if you're able to create like a little bit of an era for a brand, just like on a sports franchise or whatever else, that, to be a part of something like that, I'm super proud of it. I don't think I'll always have that opportunity. And we, you know, we all know marketers over the years who kind of have that moment where they're associated with a particular brand, and you get to carry that with you. If we could have achieved that at Pizza Pizza, between my team here and the team at Zulu for this period, I think that would be really neat. 00:39:28.120 — 00:39:30.080 · Alison Absolutely. Mike, over to you. 00:39:30.080 — 00:40:44.490 · Mike It's tough to top this that CMA moment on stage together. And I still, I get chills just just thinking about it. I'm going to cheat, Alison, I'm going to I'm going to pick two. Um, the first proud moment I'd say, because everything that's followed started with the foundation, started with the brand platform, "Everyone Deserves Pizza." Before we had some incredible breakthrough creative idea, we had this amazing, solid, authentic, truthful platform called "Everyone Deserves Pizza" for the brand. And so that's a proud moment because the very first hit was "fixed rate pizza". It allowed that, and it's allowed every single thing that's happened after that. So a lot of pride in again creating the structure and the foundation that's enabled the work. And then the other moment where I get pride is where I hear from people outside of the Zulu and Pizza Pizza teams who know about the work. Could be another client who's calling to say, hey, I've been following the the Pizza Pizza work, I've seen the business results, and I want to learn more about how you did that. And so a lot of pride in that when there's compliments, you know, from our peer group in the work that we're doing in the success that we're having. 00:40:44.650 — 00:40:57.730 · Alison It's amazing. The ultimate compliment, for sure. I'm really lucky to host senior leaders like you on the podcast, so I always end each episode by asking you to share one piece of career advice for our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps. 00:40:57.770 — 00:41:48.730 · Adrian We talked earlier about taking risks, but no, I mean, at the end of the day to be definitely on on the brand side, like to be a great marketer, you have to do things that are memorable and really going to get people's attention, and maybe they'll laugh, or maybe they'll just sort of have a wow moment. And if you don't have any of those, I don't know how you're going to be successful. You have to sort of be associated with interest and excitement. And so you're not going to get that playing it safe. So you are going to have to take some risks and do a few things that are a little bit outside of your comfort zone. But at the end of the day, the alternative is scarier, right? Like, if you're just invisible and you're not really known for anything and you're just kind of playing it safe, I feel that's how you kind of just float off into obscurity. So unfortunately, the risks is the only, the true path to to success. Just got to find a way to do it that's, you know, measured and strategic. 00:41:48.770 — 00:41:59.170 · Alison And it does get easier. As you take risks and see them paying off when they don't pay off when you pivot quickly and get the learning from it over time, you build that muscle for sure. Mike, over to you. 00:41:59.210 — 00:42:37.650 · Mike Love that. This is going to build off of, you know, what Adrian just talked about? I'd say enthusiasm and presence early on in your career. Put your hand up. Get involved. Ask to be involved in things that are out, maybe outside of your core assignment. Attach yourself to those opportunities that are happening within your organization, whether you're a client side or whether you're in an agency. And in order to do that, you have to be present. So really be present. Be involved. Get to know all of your colleagues and the leadership. And you do those two things, have a lot of enthusiasm and be present in your role, good things are going to follow. 00:42:38.020 — 00:43:02.980 · Alison Terrific advice. So, Mike and Adrian, I have really enjoyed our conversation. You've both provided such rich learning for our listeners, and it's great to have both sides of the partnership represented. And I want to end by congratulating you on you're doing such terrific work together. You're driving and delivering inspiring business results, which is ultimately why we're all in the marketing profession. And I really appreciate you taking time from very busy days to join us for CMA Connect. 00:43:03.020 — 00:43:04.300 · Adrian Thanks so much, Alison. 00:43:04.340 — 00:43:07.020 · Mike Absolute pleasure. Thanks, Alison. Thanks, Adrian. 00:43:07.060 — 00:43:09.180 · Adrian Cheers. Thanks, Mike. Great seeing you both. 00:43:11.020 — 00:43:23.980 · Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.
