Extreme Wealth – Episode 2: Steve Fishman Inside the Mind of Prisoner Bernie Madoff

Retired Canadian Supreme Court Justice Thomas Cromwell joins the podcast to describe the review he was commissioned to undertake of Hockey Canada’s organizational structure in the aftermath of a sexual assault scandal that shook confidence in the sport in 2018.

In his mid-20s, Chuck Collins made a fateful choice. The great-grandson of Oscar Meyer, and thus an heir to part of the meatpacker’s family fortune, Chuck was skeptical of the riches (some $500,000 in 1986 dollars). He didn’t want to perpetuate the imbalances he saw dynastic wealth creating in society. Rather than live off the interest, or to give a portion to charity, Chuck gave away the entire inheritance, and thus embarked on a most unusual sort of normal life. In this episode, Chuck explains what reverberations his decision to give away his inheritance had on his family and in his career, and he lays out his case to other similarly privileged Americans: Why life is better without the insulation that great wealth provides, and how billionaires can rejoin American life. Chuck Collins is the director of the Program on Inequality and the Common Good at the Institute for Policy Studies, where he edits Inequality.org. He is also a founding member of Patriotic Millionaires, a group of high-net-worth Americans who advocate for public policies — including higher taxes on the wealthy — meant to rein in the political power of the richest Americans. His prolific writings focus on inequality, the racial wealth divide, philanthropy, the climate crisis, and billionaire wealth dynasties. His forthcoming book "Burned by Billionaires: How Concentrated Wealth and Power and Ruining Our Lives and Planet" will be published in 2025.

The sudden ascent of Mohammed bin Salman from an obscure royal heir to the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia — the country’s de facto ruler — has fascinated Jonathan Rugman, an author and longtime correspondent in the Middle East. Jonathan’s latest BBC documentary, “The Kingdom,” traces MBS’s life from an unruly youth to a series of Machiavellian maneuvers to cut ahead of cousins and uncles in the line of royal succession. Jonathan’s reporting illuminates a brash but secretive young autocrat whose wealth and power have few equals anywhere on the planet. After years of high-profile murder, jailings, and crackdowns, a formidable question remains: What more does MBS want? Jonathan Rugman is a Visiting Lecturer in the journalism department at City, University of London, who has reported from some 50 countries during his 30-year journalism career. He is the author of “Ataturk’s Children – Turkey and the Kurds” and “The Killing in the Consulate,” in which he investigated the murder of the Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi. His numerous awards include a BAFTA for his coverage of the Paris terror attacks of 2015.

For more than 20 years, Paul Schervish surveyed many of the richest people in America for a long-running study on how the wealthy view the world and themselves. In this episode, another in our series on extreme wealth, Paul explains how his research and his early years spent as a priest inform his understanding of wealth and its potential to improve the world. Applying sociological and religious scholarship to the question of how what to do with money — and by extension, what to do with the rich — he invites haves and have-nots alike to consider the roles that God, human agency, and spiritual fulfillment play in our material lives. Paul Schervish is a former Jesuit priest and a professor emeritus at Boston College, where he directed the Center on Wealth and Philanthropy. A prolific scholar and author, his books include “The Structural Determinants of Unemployment,” “Wealth in Western Thought: The Case for and Against Riches,” “Gospels of Wealth: How the Rich Portray their Lives,” and “The Will of God and Wealth: Discerning the Use of Riches in the Service of Ultimate Purpose.”

Sir William Browder (“Bill”), a financier turned justice advocate, is our guest for this episode of our ongoing series on extreme wealth. Bill has been the engine behind the Magnitsky Act, a law that for the past 12 years has empowered governments to seize the assets of foreign leaders who abuse human rights — a significant countermeasure against corruption and atrocity that has exasperated Vladimir Putin and oligarchs in Russia, where Bill was once a leading foreign investor. His experience working in (and subsequently abandoning) Russia allowed him to see inside that culture and economy, and have led him to conclude Putin’s military conquests as a dictator’s efforts to protect his unfathomable stolen wealth — and his own neck. Bill Browder is the founder of Hermitage Capital Management, a firm that became the top foreign investor in post-Soviet Russia. For nearly 20 years he has been the target of Russian prosecution efforts that have drawn round condemnation from the international community, as he continues to promote the rule of law and denounce the regime of Vladimir Putin. He’s the author of “Red Notice: A True Story of High Finance, Murder and One Man's Fight for Justice” and “Freezing Order: A True Story of Russian Money Laundering, State-Sponsored Murder, and Surviving Vladimir Putin's Wrath.”

The author and philanthropist Jennifer Risher continues our series on extreme wealth by telling the story of her ear-popping rise from a middle-class Microsoft employee in the early ‘90s to an unexpected multimillionaire. The stock options she accrued with her husband, David — a fellow Microsoft employee who went on to join Amazon and who is now the CEO of Lyft — gave Jennifer immediate entry to a world of privilege that, as the child of a working-class household, she’d never expected to join. Her experience showed her the peculiar nature of personal wealth: an agent of tremendous power that, she finds, does more to amplify people’s character than to alter it. Jennifer Risher is the author of “We Need to Talk: A Memoir About Wealth,” which aims to illuminate discussions of money that are often cloaked in taboo, guilt, and secrecy. She and her husband founded the #HalfMyDAF movement, which seeks to encourage wealthy people to make greater charitable gifts in their lifetimes.

In this episode — another in our series on extreme wealth — the journalist Steve Fishman discusses his reporting on Bernie Madoff and the collapse of Madoff’s $65 billion ponzi scheme. Steve doggedly pursued the story even after the financier was sent to a federal prison in North Carolina. Eventually the two men connected for a series of phone interviews that gave Steve a unique insight into the truths and lies that enabled Madoff to con investors at an industrial scale. Steve explains that greed was but one motivation for Madoff, an apex Manhattan insider who never forgot humiliations he suffered during his youth in Queens. Steve Fishman is a longtime journalist who lives in Brooklyn. He covered Bernie Madoff first as a staff writer at New York magazine and later as the host and creator of the podcast Ponzi Supernova. His latest podcast series, The Burden, investigates decades of sketchy convictions won by Louis Scarcella, a formerly celebrated NYPD detective.

This week we debut a special project within Bribe, Swindle or Steal: single-topic episodes that focus on extreme wealth. For years Alexandra Wrage has worked on corporate compliance and anti-corruption efforts, a field that provides a front-row view into human corruptibility. In these episodes, she digs into the practical, philosophical, political, and even spiritual roots of why people risk everything—from scandal to criminal charges—for the allure of money, even when all of their material needs are more than covered. She will explore some surprising challenges of wealth alongside the ways in which greed changes people and extreme wealth changes the rules that we all live by. Her first guest in this series is Clay Cockrell, a therapist in New York City whose Walk and Talk Therapy practice specializes in treating very wealthy clients. The problems they bring to therapy give him a unique insight into the privileges, the anxieties, and the perils exclusive to the 1%.

In this episode from 2020, Randall Eliason, law professor and former Assistant U.S. Attorney provides an excellent account of the days leading up to the sentencing of political operative Roger Stone. The Department of Justice’s unprecedented interference in--and reversal of--its prosecutorial team’s recommendation led to the resignation from the case of all four prosecutors. Over 2000 former DOJ officials called on Attorney General Barr to resign in the wake of his interference in the case. This episode was originally published on 4 March 2020.

A 22-year veteran of Treasury and consultant to the Dept of Justice, John Madinger sheds light on some of the money-laundering schemes he has uncovered and why the Breaking Bad car wash scheme probably wouldn’t have worked. This episode was originally posted: December 27, 2017