The Legal Growth Table

Barbara and Andrew are joined by Deborah Farone, a leading and award-winning expert in law firm marketing and business development. Deborah shares what she learned from more than sixty interviews for her new book, Breaking Ground. The conversation covers why rainmaking cannot be taught by numbers, the trust triangle of logic, empathy, and authenticity, why firms must train associates early, and how the best lawyers create value by listening rather than selling.Rainmakers are made, not born. Plenty to take back to your desk.

Barbara and Andrew are joined by Scott Love, President of the Attorney Search Group and host of The Rainmaking Podcast, who has spent three decades placing partners and advising AmLaw 100 and 200 firms on how they grow.Scott makes a simple, contrarian case: lateral partner recruiting is the most effective form of business development a firm can do. When a partner joins with twenty to thirty trusted relationships, that trust transfers on day one.He explains why firms should hunt for force multipliers rather than connection points, why the wall between the marketing and recruiting teams is leaving money behind the sofa, and why distinction, not difference, is what earns attention in a market where everyone chases the same people. He closes on the questions every firm leader should be asking: what problems do we solve, and what business are we actually in.

Barbara and Andrew are joined by Thomas Vanhee, Founder of Aurifer, a boutique tax and audit firm with offices in Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Riyadh, and Doha. Thomas spent a decade at tier-one tax law firms in Brussels and Paris before a secondment took him to the Gulf, where in 2017 he left the big brand behind and started his own firm.This is a founder's growth story told without the gloss. Thomas is honest about how much a large firm quietly takes care of for you, and how exposed you feel the moment that support is gone.He talks about the early months when the bank balance would not cover payroll, and why protecting three people's salaries mattered more than his own for over two years. He explains the lesson he learned the hard way, that saying yes to every client locks you into the wrong pool, and why learning to say no is what lets a firm grow into the work it actually wants. He makes the case that trust, not price, is what clients buy, and that the slow compounding of relationships and after-care is where the real growth sits.If you have ever thought about building something of your own, this one is worth your time.

Barbara and Andrew are joined by Chandler Lauzon, Chief Growth Officer at Cassels, a national Canadian law firm of about 400 lawyers with offices coast to coast. Chandler calls himself "a recovering lawyer." He practiced for about eight years before pivoting into proposals in the early 2000s, and has spent the last 20 years watching the BD and marketing function inside law firms evolve. In this conversation Chandler talks about the mission he was hired for: moving a BD and marketing function that was "responsive, but tactical" into something genuinely strategic. He walks us through the three metrics he now holds his team to, revenue generation, profitability and profile, and why anything outside those is noise. He explains why "lists of 20 action items in law firms will never get done," why accountability is the new dirty word in the legal industry, and why the real unlock is everyone in the firm understanding that "at some fundamental level, we're all doing business development, just at different points on the pipeline." He also shares the reminder he gives his own team every chance he gets: behave like the experts that you are. If you work in legal BD, this one is practical, honest and full of ideas you can carry straight into your next partner meeting. One to listen to twice.

Barbara and Andrew are joined by Liz Sobe, Head of Business Development at Robinson and Cole, a full-service firm of 200 lawyers with a global footprint. Liz has spent 30 years in business development and client relations across professional services. She once took a sabbatical to help a national toy retailer launch a .com, but growth in professional services is where she has always returned.This conversation is about what it really means to listen to clients, and why most firms are doing far less of it than they think.Liz opens with the three phrases she hears from attorneys that signal both risk and opportunity: “this works for me”, “this is how I have always done it”, and “my clients love me.” She explains why she no longer calls it arrogance when partners push back on client listening. It is fear: the fear of what they might find out. And she makes the case that the right response is not confrontation but education.She walks through six categories of clients that deserve active listening attention, from high-growth potential accounts to at-risk clients to market bellwethers, and explains why the follow-up is “probably the most important part” of any programme. She also makes a case for breadth: client listening is not a feedback interview. It is journey mapping, net promoter surveys, end-of-matter debriefs, lateral onboarding, and every conversation in between.She leaves us with a line that reframes everything: “It is a people business with law built in.”

Barbara and Andrew are joined by Robin van Keeken, Senior Business Development Manager at Buren, a mid-size international law firm in the Netherlands. Seven years ago Robin pitched his firm on an idea that still feels unusual in the legal sector: an outbound business development role. Buren gave it a go, and in his own words, "we have proven that outbound for business development can work."Robin talks openly about why sales in a law firm is not a dirty word but a conversation, why pipeline is always a joint effort across partnership, marketing and business development, and why he would rather listen than pitch. He shares the story of a Rotterdam CFO who mentioned in passing that his company was "also doing some work in China," and the acquisition that followed two months later from a single moment of real listening. He walks us through the International Legal Counseling Community Buren is now building, and leaves us with a line about client experience in the legal industry that every firm should hear: the CMO of a major bank whose last contact with his law firm was the invoice.

Barbara and Andrew are joined by Mike Mellor, legal BD consultant and former co-head of proposals at Paul Weiss. Mike spent his early career in professional services marketing at the Big Four, including a formative stretch on a KPMG deal team, before moving into legal where he quickly realised a lot of people were "winging it" through an apprenticeship method. Over the last year and a half he has built his consulting practice on one simple idea: systems. In this conversation Mike talks about what the Big Four has figured out that law firms mostly have not, starting with investment and training. Why he believes "attorneys talk in features and clients care about benefits," and why the real unlock is a shared language and a shared playbook across the firm. He shares an honest failure story from his first month at a firm when a firm-wide policy rollout was met with "laughter coming down the hall," and the lesson it taught him about working with the coalition of the willing rather than the 14 million dollar rainmaker on day one. He also lays out a practical, phased playbook for anyone walking into a new BD seat: observe first, fix the data, run small pilots, and walk into every partner meeting armed. If you work in legal BD, this one is honest, systematic, and full of lessons from both sides of the Big Four and Big Law divide.

Barbara and Andrew are joined by Jean Muller, Executive Director of Global Markets at Khaitan & Co, one of India's leading law firms, and a former diplomat who served as France's youngest Foreign Trade Advisor in India and Singapore.Jean brings a rare perspective to this conversation. He talks about what it really takes to enter a new market, whether that means a new geography or a new focus area, and how to align internal stakeholders when a firm is pushing into unfamiliar territory. He shares his thinking on combining homegrown talent with new hires to build a team that can actually deliver, and offers a fascinating inside view on how Indian law firms are preparing for the arrival of international big law.

Barbara and Andrew are joined by Chris Newman, who has led sales enablement at McDermott and Mintz, amongst others. This conversation is packed with the kind of hard-won thinking you rarely hear so openly shared. Chris walks through how he built pipeline management, ideal client profiles, white space analysis, and a dedicated new logo targeting team, and how he launched a digital products function that rethought what BD value looks like inside a law firm.If you work in legal BD, you will come away with new ideas on sales culture, teaching lawyers the science behind business development, and using AI as a thought partner. The Legal Growth Table at its best: real energy, no filler, and plenty to take back to your desk. One to listen to twice.

Before the guests arrive, the hosts take a seat.In this opening episode, Andrew Hutchinson and Barbara Koenen-Geerdink introduce themselves, the podcast, and the moment the legal industry finds itself in. Why are we still in the early stages of a much bigger shift? What challenges are coming that most firms aren't ready for? And why does data, not technology, sit at the foundation of any AI strategy worth building?