Radical Reformers podcast

I was delighted to see Ian Thomas CBE named Britain’s most influential black person on the Powerlist 2027. I was reminded of the time we were lucky to have Ian as a guest on the Radical Reformers podcast. Exploring Ian’s rich career history is as meaningful now as it was when I first spoke to him five years ago! So, we’re bringing this episode back! Ian is currently the Town Clerk & Chief Executive of the City of London Corporation. At the time of recording, he was the Chief Executive of Royal Borough of Kingston Upon Thames. In the first part of the conversation, Ian explores the importance of public sector infrastructure, commercial vibrancy, inward investment and attractive, safe public places. It’s a theme that feels particularly relevant today, as the government develops its ambitions for Rewiring the State around stronger places and local leadership. Ian and I also discuss Ian’s role as the Director of Children’s Services (DCS) in Rotherham in 2015. He reflects on the importance of working as one system around a place and breaking down organisational boundaries, which ultimately uncovered one of the biggest sexual exploitation scandals this country has ever seen. Ian is a radical reformer in the truest sense, and I hope you enjoy this revisited episode.

This episode of Radical Reformers is very timely. We have just had John Healey's first budget - but the focus has very quickly shifted to the imminent arrival of the Government's "Re-wiring the State" white paper. Andrew Laird is joined by Jonathan Werran, Chief Executive of Localis, an independent not-for-profit think tank focused on localist ideas. They explore what Rewiring the (local) state should mean for communities against a backdrop of local government reorganisation and devolution. Andrew and Jonathan discuss: - Why reorganisation needs to be a platform for long-term public service redesign. - How strategic authorities and councils can work together, with power reaching communities rather than stopping at regional level. - Why understanding your place matters and combining demographic, social and economic insight with strong local relationships. - The case for strategic authorities providing the right footprint for safe, responsible and ethical adoption of AI, drawing on richer, joined-up data sets. Jonathan’s central message in this episode is that councils’ distinctive strength is knowing their communities and bringing partners together. Any structural reform or "rewiring" must have this at its core.

AI and Public Services: What should you know? What should you be thinking about? Artificial Intelligence could be the most consequential disruption today's public service leaders encounter in their careers. But how well do we really understand what we're dealing with? Much of the conversation about AI in public services focuses on what it can do for us - improving productivity, reducing costs and transforming services. These are important opportunities. But before rushing to adopt new technologies, public service leaders need to understand what AI actually is, how it's evolving, what it can and cannot do, and what must remain distinctively human. In the latest episode of our #RadicalReformers podcast, Andrew sets the scene for a series of Mutual Ventures articles, webinars and podcasts exploring the evolution from generative AI to AI agents that can increasingly act autonomously, the opportunities and risks this creates, and the fundamental questions it raises about leadership, judgement, accountability and public trust. Our ambition is to help public service leaders navigate this rapidly changing landscape - not by turning them into technologists, but by equipping them with the understanding and confidence to ask the right questions and make informed decisions. We're excited and concerned in equal measure about what lies ahead - but these are conversations public service leaders need to be having right now!

In this revisited episode, I’m returning to a conversation with Caroline Simpson. Caroline is currently Deputy Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, with a particular responsibility in Number 10 North. At the time of recording Caroline was the Group Chief Executive of Greater Manchester Combined Authority, Transport for Greater Manchester and Greater Manchester Fire and Rescue Service. This episode is worth hearing again because it gets beneath the structures of devolution and explores what it really takes to make it work. Caroline talks about the relationship between economic growth and public service reform, and why progress must ultimately be felt in people’s lives, not just seen in new buildings or stronger economic stats. She also makes a compelling case for moving investment towards prevention and designing services around the whole person, rather than expecting people to navigate a collection of disconnected systems. All themes we are familiar with here at MV. But at the heart of the conversation is leadership. Caroline explains how Greater Manchester’s progress has been built on trust, strong relationships and a willingness to have constructive disagreements. These are themes which were strongly supported in my subsequent Manchesterism conversations with Eve holt, Thomas Johnson and Warren Heppolette. There is a lot here for anyone leading change in a complex system. Above all, Caroline brings remarkable energy, humility and determination and a leadership philosophy that can be summed up in two words: “all in”.

A year on, this Radical Reformers episode with Gary Wallace, Plymouth City Council, is just as relevant now as it was then and serves as a powerful reminder that change sometimes it starts with a conversation, a relationship or a different way of working. As local government and public services continue to grapple with rising demand, shrinking budgets and increasing complexity, we're seeing more debate about the limitations of traditional performance-driven models and growing interest in prevention, place-based approaches and relational working. Gary sat down with Andrew Laird and challenged the principles of New Public Management and shared why he believes better outcomes come from creating healthier systems. Systems where people, organisations and communities work together. We could all do with a bit of practical optimism right now. Gary’s message isn't that we need to wait for wholesale system reform. It's that change starts with how we work every day. And as he says, 'Even if you can't change the way your service works, you can change the way you work as an individual.'"

Over the last few weeks, we’ve been exploring what “Manchesterism” really means and what the rest of the country might learn from Greater Manchester’s approach to devolution and public service reform. First, Andrew Laird spoke to Eve Holt about the long history of collaboration and person-centred public service reform that has characterised Greater Manchester’s approach. They discussed the Live Well programme as a useful case study. Then Thomas Johnson reflected on the importance of long-term commitment to a place and the deep local knowledge that Whitehall can struggle to replicate. For the third and final part of the series, Andrew is joined by Warren Heppolette, Director of the Greater Manchester Prevention Demonstrator and one of the leading figures behind Greater Manchester’s health devolution journey. It’s a fascinating conversation which gets right to the heart of what Manchesterism looks like in practice. Warren identifies some of its defining characteristics: - A deep culture of collaboration, built up over decades rather than created through a new structure or governance model. - Putting “people and place above institutional interests” and designing public services around a shared purpose rather than simply aggregating organisational responsibilities. - Coming to the table asking “what can I bring?” rather than “what can I get?”. This deceptively simple but hugely important mindset sets the scene for genuine collaboration. - An expectation of ambition. As Warren puts it, in Greater Manchester you should “expect the inconceivable to become routine”. There’s also a brilliant reflection on Warren’s early career as a neighbourhood housing officer and how the arrival of New Public Management and specialist teams gradually broke the connection between the public servant, the person and whether their problem was actually solved. In Warren’s words, it started “taking the joy” out of public service. We recommend you listen to this in conjunction with parts 1 and 2 to get a full flavour of “Manchesterism”!

In part two of our Manchesterism series on the #RadicalReformers podcast, Andrew Laird is joined by Thomas Johnson, Head of Reform Strategy and Policy at the Greater Manchester Combined Authority, for a wide-ranging conversation on what we can learn from the Greater Manchester experience. What comes through strongly is that meaningful reform cannot be delivered by one organisation, one leader or one part of the system acting alone. It requires consistent and collective effort. Thomas reflects on Greater Manchester’s long history of bringing councils, health, police, fire and rescue and voluntary sector partners and communities together around shared challenges. Collaboration has to be built into the structures, behaviours and day-to-day ways of working. The conversation also explores the importance of commitment to a place. Thomas describes how long-term relationships, institutional memory and a deep understanding of local complexity have helped Greater Manchester develop its approach over time. Can this be replicated? This is not about copying and pasting a model into other areas. It is about understanding the principles that sit underneath it - trust, shared purpose, practical collaboration, local identity and a willingness to rewire systems around people and places. For anyone thinking about devolution, public service reform, local government reorganisation or the future of place leadership, this episode offers valuable insight into what it really takes to make collaboration stick.

In the latest episode of Radical Reformers, Andrew Laird speaks to Professor Toby Lowe from the Policy Evaluation and Research Unit at Manchester Metropolitan University. Radical Reformers listeners will probably know Toby as a leading Human Learning Systems expert who takes a real interest in the practical delivery of public service reform. Like the Mutual Ventures team, he is no fan of New Public Management models built on control, targets and standardisation! At the heart of this conversation is a powerful idea - the moral purpose of public services is to support human freedom and flourishing. This means services can’t be designed around metrics or institutional convenience. They need to be built on strong human relationships between public servants and communities, between public service colleagues and across whole systems. If we want services to respond to the complexity of people’s real lives, we need to start with their individual strengths, needs and aspirations. And we need to ask the right questions such as - "What matters to you"? This is a great conversation and a brilliant listen for anyone wanting to build their knowledge about relational public services, place-based reform, and how we create the conditions for public servants to learn, adapt and do their best work.

As Andy Burnham prepares to become Prime Minister, there is growing interest in what “Manchesterism” might mean for the country. The term has already come to encompass a wide range of ideas: collective self-belief; collaboration across boundaries; devolution and subsidiarity; greater social justice; and good growth rooted in people and place.  In the latest episode of Radical Reformers, Andrew Laird speaks to Eve Holt, Head of Policy and Implementation at Greater Manchester Combined Authority, about the ideas, culture and confidence behind Greater Manchester’s devolution journey. Eve talks about what makes Greater Manchester distinctive: the “ten plus one” model, the long history of collaboration across councils and partners, the role of communities and the voluntary sector, and the importance of connecting policy with implementation from the get-go. We hear a few of our pals name-dropped along the way too, including Prof. Donna Hall, Scott Darraugh and Rachel Law, as part of a wider conversation about the people, places and ideas that have helped shape this way of working. This is a great listen for anyone thinking about devolution, place leadership, public service reform or what it really takes to move from ambition to action.

In this episode of Radical Reformers, Andrew Laird speaks to Tracey Lee, Chief Executive of Plymouth City Council, about one of the most significant place-based opportunities in the UK. Plymouth is a city with defence, engineering and the Royal Navy in its DNA. With a 70-year investment in the city and thousands of new jobs linked to Babcock and the Ministry of Defence, Plymouth has a once-in-a-generation chance to reshape its economy and future. Plymouth is also a city of stark inequalities, with too many residents still unable to access the skills, housing and support they need. The challenge is not simply creating jobs, but ensuring local people can benefit from them. Tracey describes how "Team Plymouth" brings together the Council, the MOD, central government, Babcock, other local businesses and other partners around a shared mission. This episode offers a powerful lesson for place leaders - councils do not need to do everything themselves, but they do need to convene, connect and create the conditions for others to act.