Loitering

Loitering with Evan Ratliff is a conversation with Evan Ratliff about his career trajectory as a journalist and podcast host, and the backstory behind "Shell Game," the podcast he created about the influence of AI in our lives. To read the accompanying newsletter, please visit loitering.substack.com. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com

Hello, everyone! I’ll start with the obvious—over a year has passed since my last update. Again, after Loitering at the Merylthon, I thought the cadence of updates would be more frequent. But of course, life calls. It’s been a busy year, and a challenging one at times. In the middle of that, though, there have been balms, and this interview is one of them.Earlier this year, I was lucky to speak with the writer Carvell Wallace about his memoir, Another Word for Love, for the journal Alta. We sat on the grass at Lake Merritt in Oakland and had a wide-ranging conversation about love, writing, healing, etc. — some of which appeared on the Alta Q&A, much of which did not! I hope you’ll listen to it now. The interview also appears on Carvell’s Substack.(the cover of Carvell’s memoir)On my end, this summer I took on a new role with Uncuffed. In addition to teaching and editing at Solano State Prison and co-producing our podcast, I’m now strategizing media partnerships for Uncuffed—a.k.a., getting the word out about our amazing work! If you’re in the podcast and/or media world and want to feature Uncuffed stories, re-air an episode, or write about Uncuffed, please get at me.Uncuffed recently won an award from the NorCal Society of Professional Journalists for a story about pickleball in prison (!) The awards ceremony was a rare opportunity for a lot of Uncuffed staff to be at the same place at the same time, so please enjoy this photo of us. :) A story I reported for 99% Invisible also won an award that night (!) I mostly think awards in journalism are a scheme, but I admit it was nice to be honored. The story is one of my favorite pieces I’ve ever reported. It’s about the history and evolution of U.S. military simulations and the experiences of the role players who staff them. I started reporting on the story at the beginning of 2023, and by the time I started tracking it at the end of last year, the war in Gaza was well underway. Suffice it to say it made covering a piece like this an even more surreal experience. (The latest headlines have now placed the death toll at a staggering over 44,000 people, according to Palestinian authorities). And that’s just what the news reminds us of. It’s easy to forget ongoing conflicts in Ethiopia, Armenia-Azerbaijan, Sudan, Ukraine, etc., etc. Selective amnesia about war, politics, and so on is a trend. Let’s not forget how that’s also playing out in the U.S. these days.But back to the story. Another reason I loved reporting that 99pi piece is that it brought me back to that feeling of discovery that happens when you’re out in the world, reporting outside your home or comfort zone and engaging all your senses. I miss that! Outside of Uncuffed, I’ve been working on another project, but it’s been mostly planning and less field reporting at this stage. That will change in time, although it often feels like it can’t happen soon enough. Until then, something else has been creating a new experience of being in the world……Which brings me to other news—I got a puppy! If you’re reading this post, you probably already know that. His name is Yunoki. He’s a medium bernedoodle named after the local train stop where I lived in Japan. The name generates that natsukashii feeling, and he generates a lot of attention! Yunoki is a walking conversation starter. I’ve been enjoying my time with him and leaning into my identity as a dog person. :) And yes, he has an Instagram.Here’s a photo of him from a few months ago. He’s bigger now!And here’s a little portrait my friend Evan took of us this summer.Again, I want to say I’ll be more frequent with these posts—it seems like everyone has a Substack these days and is doing just that—but I also do enjoy posting at this slower cadence. So let’s see. Wishing everyone a peaceful close to 2024. Maybe you’ll hear from me before it ends, maybe you won’t!Until next time…Peace,Sonia This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com

Hello, everyone. Before I get into the topic of this interview…Suffice it to say it’s been an incredibly long time since my last update… Over a year, in fact. I swore to myself at the end of last year that I’d be more consistent with updates for 2023 (starting with “Loitering in the Closet” — and yes, I still plan to do that episode). But scheduling hurdles for planned episodes got in the way, and then, with news of a bill to ban caste discrimination in California, my time and attention snapped onto covering that issue.I had already wrapped up my production work on an audio documentary about caste in Silicon Valley for The Documentary podcast on the BBC when Seattle became the first city in the U.S. to ban caste discrimination. Cue me crouching in the closet to re-track that narration so we could include it in the BBC story. Then, California state Senator Aisha Wahab announced SB 403, a bill that would clarify existing California civil rights laws to explicitly ban caste discrimination as well. Cue more re-tracking. By the time The hidden caste codes of Silicon Valley (as we finally called the BBC story) was finally released, there was a ton of attention on SB 403. And suddenly, here was this audio documentary with me interviewing Dalits and asking people somewhat uncomfortable questions about caste in front of an Indian grocery store. Suddenly, I found myself going on podcasts and news shows to talk about the issue and the significance of the bill, as well as actively reporting on the ground in Sacramento as meetings on the proposal drew intense crowds of supporters and protestors.You may have heard that California Governor Newsom recently vetoed the bill after it was passed by a majority of the California State Legislature. However you feel about that news, it seems pretty certain this issue isn’t going away. If you’re interested, you can hear me wax on about my reporting on Here and Now, Our Body Politic, KQED’s The Bay, The Grand Tamasha, Forum on KQED, KALW and Vox’s Today, Explained. I also wrote and reported this story about the bill for Mother Jones. This was all before Newsom’s decision, by the way, so there’s definitely more to report and say.That’s an update on what’s been preoccupying my energy recently, but that’s not necessarily the point of this post. I very well realize that as I write, a conflict is raging in Israel-Gaza that’s scary, heartbreaking and devastating on multiple levels. And that people are very afraid and hurting. It’s a grim time. And I say/write this as someone relatively distanced from the situation. I can only imagine how this is impacting Israelis, Jews, Palestinians and others for whom this hits closer to home. There is a lot to absorb about what’s been happening. I found this one of the more insightful pieces I’ve come across, as it doesn’t lose sight of the necessity of managing complexity in this moment.Now, onto expanding upon the Loitering interview embedded in this post. It may seem frivolous in comparison to the previous discussion. But I actually find it quite beautiful and meaningful on top of being funny and silly. And that is the Merylthon.The Merylthon is/was a “unique 3-day film marathon featuring Meryl Streep in 8 iconic film roles.” It was the brainchild of my good friend Evan Roberts, who orchestrated the event after it first started out as a fun pun back in 2006. The point of the actual Merylthon was not just to finally bring the concept to life, but to also fundraise for Queer Life Space, a Bay Area organization that offers evidence-based training and mental health services for the LGBTQIA+ community.I went to the showing of The Devil Wears Prada at San Francisco’s Four Star Theater during the Merylthon only to find an original Guess Who game featuring Meryl…… as well as a ton of original paraphernalia and promotional items (see the video).Sadly, I missed the drag performances because it took so long to find parking (poor time management on my part). But I did encounter original “Meryl cocktails” and, as you heard in the interview, “she-devil” cake. Evan even created a promotional video featuring real-life Meryls!All this to say, the Merylthon was inspiring. As another friend put it, it was a “beautiful, hilarious, whacky, wonderful, creative idea.” And as Rodrigo told me in our interview, our communities need more events like a Merylthon.Congratulations to Evan and the rest of the Merylthon team!Until next time…Peace,SoniaP.S. If you’re curious to know more about She-Devil, here’s the original trailer. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com

Hello, everyone… So it’s been quite some time since the last episode of Loitering. Some helpful information you should know to understand this current episode is that at the end of last year, I started teaching at Uncuffed, a podcast and audio journalism training program in California prisons. That work recently brought me and my colleagues (including several formerly incarcerated producers of Uncuffed) to Norway. More information about that when you listen to this episode! The person you’ll hear is Tommy Ross, who goes by Shakur, and it was recorded on June 16, 2022, in the lobby of Oslo’s Hotel Verdandi. Shakur wanted to send along some pictures for this episode, so here they are below. You’ll understand these moments when you listen. :)Shakur and Ninna (who you’ll hear about during the episode) at the FedEx facility:Shakur at the San Francisco International Airport:Shakur running into Eli (who you’ll also hear about during this episode) in Amsterdam:Some members of the Uncuffed team visiting Halden Prison in Norway:Me, Ninna and Shakur at Oslo City Hall:Shakur in Norway!Shakur being interviewed by Angela (who you’ll also hear about during this episode) the morning after we recorded this interview:If you’re looking to understand more about why Californians are interested in Norway’s prison system, have a listen/read to this piece from KQED (which features Isiah Daniels, who also has a cameo in this episode of Loitering)!Some other updates from me: Earlier this year a piece I reported for the BBC World Service profiling the Ethiopian American writer Meron Hadero aired/published. You can have a listen to that here. And a piece I’d been working on for some time about caste in Silicon Valley came out in March and was featured in the April issue of WIRED magazine. You can read that here. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com

Hello, everyone! It’s been a long year, to say the least. Hard to believe 2021 is about to close. Before it does, however, please check out this special episode of Loitering, featuring Albert Samaha, Johana Bhuiyan and Arvin Temkar. We discuss Albert’s new book, Concepcion, and dig into the process of excavating family history and identity. I like to think of it as the good thinking, good listening podcast we could use for our ears right now! Let me know what you think.Peace,SoniaSonia Paul 0:13 Okay, thank you both for agreeing to join me for this book club/book talk about Concepcion, by Albert Samaha. And so before we like get into the book discussion, could you each introduce yourselves so listeners know who are friends of Loitering right now? Sure.Johana Bhuiyan 0:34 I am Johana Bhuiyan. I am a tech reporter and editor at The Guardian. I live in the Bay Area. I'm half Filipino, half Bangladeshi. That's pretty much the pertinent information.Arvin Temkar 0:48 Oh, that's super cool. Yeah, we're all half. We're all mixed. That's really interesting. So my name is Arvin Temkar. I am a freelance photojournalist and writer in Atlanta. And I used to live in the Bay Area. So a lot of the book was really interesting to kind of learn about the history of San Francisco. And I met Sonia in the bay,Sonia Paul 1:08 And to Arvin's point about all of us being mixed, I think that is interesting. All of us have a connection to Filipino culture. My mom's side of the family is born and raised in the Philippines. They're like mixed Indian-Filipino from the Philippines. So there's so much of that culture in my family as well. So to that end, I'm curious because how this started is that I knew Arvin would be reading this book, and I was interested in reading this book. And then I was like, let's have a book club. I know who was probably reading this book as well. And that would be Johana. But also, like, let's pinpoint what was compelling each of us to read this book.Johana Bhuiyan 1:47 I worked with Albert at BuzzFeed. So that was part of it, part a lot of it was just in support of. But I also I mean, I am really interested in my Filipino culture and learning more about the history of the Philippines. There was a lot of like, wanting to learn a little bit more about my Filipino ethnicity. My dad is the Bangladeshi one. I grew up largely culturally Bangladeshi. So I learned how to speak Bangla. Like, I really don't know a ton of the Tagalog. So honestly, any opportunity I get to learn a little bit more about Filipino culture and people who have Filipino backgrounds. And obviously, Albert, knowing him personally, I was really interested in, and he had done a couple of articles too about his mother. And I was actually hoping to read a little bit more about that as well.Sonia Paul 2:30 Yeah, did you to have a chance to like, exchange information or experiences about being half Filipino?Johana Bhuiyan 2:38 No, I honestly, like did not know that. He was half Filipino. I like did not know what ethnicity he was. Until he started writing about his Filipino mom. I'm like, Oh, this makes a lot of sense, based on his name. Like, I'm like, this all started to click for me. But yeah, I'd never put two and two together. We had like, talked about it after I stopped working on Buzzfeed. But it was never like a topic of conversation.Sonia Paul 2:59 Hmm, interesting. How about you, Arvin.Arvin Temkar 3:02 I also know Albert, we're friends. And we went to journalism school together. So obviously, I want to support him and his brilliant writing. But you know, I'm also just super interested in all of the topics that he writes about, particularly in this book, the question of whether his family or anybody's family is better off moving to the United States and kind of pursuing the American dream, as many of us have been raised to believe. I didn't mention this earlier, but my mom is Filipino, and my dad is Indian. But I relate mostly to my Filipino side. And I think that's because I learned my mom's language when I was little. I have a lot of cousins in the United States who are Filipino, my mom cooked food from her country. And I didn't really have that same experience on my dad's side. It was kind of interesting also to kind of read the book and learn a little bit about Albert's dad, but also kind of recognizing that he seems to really identify particularly with his Filipino side. I think I have a similar experience.Sonia Paul 3:59 Yeah, I was also really intrigued to read this book because I feel like I haven't come across many books about Filipino identity and culture from like a second generation experience. Also super interested in that critique, as Arvin mentioned, of like, is it a good thing that people chose to immigrate to this country. And also the experience of coming from a half identity or like a bicultural experience? And then writing about that diaspora community or about that immigrant community? I just don't feel like we have a lot of that in literature at this moment. And so one of the things I was thinking about when reading this book is that considering that he's examining his own Filipino identity and acknowledges he grew up with that side of his family and really embraces that, how did that portrayal resonate with you?Arvin Temkar 4:51 I thought it was really interesting that Albert describes kind of this black and white dichotomy in our culture, and kind of questions where other people fit in, particularly if you're Filipino. And the part that resonates with me in the book in regards to your question is, he kind of does this cultural analysis of this movie called The Debut, The Debut. Sonia Paul 5:16 Yes! Arvin Temkar 5:17 And where the main character kind of falls, how that relates to his experience. And I guess Albert relates a lot to Black culture, and the character in that movie seem to fall in with white culture. And he kind of compares and contrasts these experiences. And I really did that personally, because I've always felt like I have kind of related more to the white culture, but had noticed in my school that it felt like many of the Filipinos were relating more to Black culture. So it's always been like just a weird dynamic. And I think partly that might be because I moved around a lot when I was a kid. And I didn't have many other Filipino friends, until I got to like, MiddleSchool AND high school, where I was on an army base, and there were a lot of Filipinos,Johana Bhuiyan 6:03 I mean, I was gonna ask you where you grew up, because I think that adds a lot of context, you know, whether you identify more with white or Black culture as a person of color. I mean, that was something similar, but I thought was interesting in the book. And it's something that I think about quite a lot. Because I do feel like speaking of the lack of representation, or a lack of any kind of narratives about what it's actually like to be Filipino, I think growing up without that, you basically are forced to choose between white and Black culture, because what is a second-generation Filipino culture? What does that look like? Or what is brown culture look like? You know, we just didn't have a very real concept of that. I mean, I grew up in Queens, New York. And so I definitely, I moved more toward Black culture. But I think I also felt more accepted by Black culture and much more comfortable. And so it is interesting to me that while Albert, he felt closer to Black culture than white culture, his family kind of took on and accepted a lot of sort of the white stereotypes, white expectations, kind of saw whiteness as — whether or not it was a net positive — accessing that whiteness, or that closeness to whiteness would be the thing that provided them a lot of opportunities. In order to progress in American society, they needed to accept whiteness, which I think is pretty true of a lot of my immigrant family. Right. Like, I think that that was sort of the… This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com

Hello! This episode of Loitering is a brief one, so no transcript. Hope you enjoy!Here is a picture of the trees discussed in the episode. According to the app PlantSnap, they are Ceiba speciosa, otherwise known as silk floss trees.From front to back: Breezy Treezy, Cheesy Treezy, and Weezy Treezy.Here is a portrait of Latif with Breezy Treezy.Listen to Radiolab here.Listen to Latif’s award-winning podcast, “The Other Latif,” about a detainee at Guantanamo Bay who shares his name, and what 9/11 and the War on Terror have brought us 20 years later.Check out Latif on the Netflix show “Connected” here.Read this affecting piece by Niha Masih about covering India’s devastating surge of coronavirus while the pandemic also infected everyone in her entire family.And check out “Dreamland: The Burning of Black Wall Street,” directed and produced by Salima Koroma, with Adam Perez serving as director of photography (and a host of other talented team members supporting the production, as is the case with most other podcasts and documentaries you consume)! Here’s some info on how to watch from the CNN Press Room: “Beginning Tuesday, June 1, the film will be available on demand via cable/satellite systems, CNNgo platforms, and CNN mobile apps.  DREAMLAND will encore Saturday, June 5 at 9:00pm Eastern.  HBO Max will offer the film for subscribers at a later date.” This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com

Heylo!!! It’s been quite a while since the last episode… and now, 2021 is certainly upon us. There’s much to update on, but first, here’s an episode of Loitering recorded about a month ago… that stems from this article by Ruchika Tulshyan and Jodi-Ann Burey I read a couple of months before that, about a phenomenon that might ring a bell to many listeners — 🔥 imposter syndrome🔥.As you’ll hear, there are burning flames around this term for a reason. Enjoy! Also, please scroll ahead to the links below the transcript for some updates from me. :) Sonia Paul  00:11Hello, everyone, welcome to Loitering, the occasional but lovable traveling mini pod I am currently testing in newsletter format. And today I am loitering with two very special guests. Can you please introduce yourself?Ruchika Tulshyan  00:27Sure, I'm Ruchika Tulshyan, I'm a former journalist. And currently, I write about gender diversity and racial equity in the workplace for Harvard Business Review. I also run an inclusion strategy practice called Candour.Jodi-Ann Burey  00:43Hi, and I am Jodi-Ann Burey. I'm a speaker, writer, I call myself a disrupter because we have to do things differently if we want to achieve social change. I speak and write at the intersections of race, culture, and health equity. I also created and host the podcast Black Cancer, which is about the lives of people of color told through their cancer journeys. Also have a TED talk titled “The myth of bringing your full, authentic self to work,” where I really try to disrupt what we think of how racism shows up in the workplace.Sonia Paul  01:16Cool, thank you both so much for making the time to talk. And the two of you both co-authored an article recently for the Harvard Business Review, titled “Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome.” And I was just wondering, you know, first of all, can we just define what do we mean when we say imposter syndrome? Because I also feel like it has become a catch-all term for a lot of different things that maybe have the same source, and how are you defining it?Jodi-Ann Burey  01:47So imposter syndrome is defined as not having an internal sense of success, despite probably having what other people might call success, right. So whether it's the degrees that you've had, the accolades that you've had, you know, whatever area in your professional life where you are, quote, unquote, high achieving, that sense of achievement isn't felt internally. So the short for that is having this feeling like you're a fraud, or a high level of self-doubt in your, you know, whatever your work environment is, or whatever the context is.Ruchika Tulshyan  02:25And while feelings of self-doubt, and largely, you know, this, this diagnosis of imposter syndrome can really impact anyone where they may be doubting their self-worth, or their abilities or their successes, it definitely is much more prevalent in women, in terms of the way the research has been done. And it is also sort of a syndrome that's really, you know, placed upon women. And so often women get diagnosed with imposter syndrome, we're invited to a lot of events, women's events, conferences, where women are essentially being taught how to overcome their imposter syndrome. So even though feelings of self-doubt and feeling like, you know, maybe you question whether you belong in a place, or whether you really are a fraud, those feelings might be fairly universal by gender and race, there is a very gendered aspect to how it shows up in our society.Sonia Paul  03:23Yeah, and, you know, something that I was just like, very curious about is just this notion of being a fraud, and how essential that is to the definition of imposter syndrome, because I think — I personally think, for example, that there is a lot of maybe the influence of humility in fueling imposter syndrome, just, you know, women who wouldn't boast about themselves, who do acknowledge that they are successful, but maybe not to the extent that they should, and others don't validate them. And so I'm just wondering if that is part of our definition of imposter syndrome, or if that's something else, and if the two of you reflected upon that?Jodi-Ann Burey  04:13Yeah, I think what's interesting here is even as Ruchika was speaking before, with the sense of diagnosing and syndrome and all these medical terms, all of this is done and people can't see this because it's a podcast, but "in quotations," right, diagnosing them with this quote, unquote, syndrome. You know, and so I think what we are trying to speak to in the article is around the structural environment within which women and folks of color and other people who experience marginalization or underrepresentation, what that environment is doing to create these feelings or heightened feelings of self-doubt, because, you know, Ruchika and I talk about this, having a healthy level of self-doubt is normal, but to the degree that gets talked about and is explained within this concept of imposter syndrome, or of what you're saying where women, people of color, folks have other identities are also socialized to try to downplay their work and their worth and their value in some way. And, you know, we can all give examples of men-identifying people in our lives who do not do that, who take up as much physical space as possible, who take as much energy as possible, to boast about the work that we're doing. And we value that. And so I think what you're speaking to of this downplaying, and this concept of imposter syndrome is linked, in that the racism and sexism that exists in our culture is what creates — I think they're both byproducts of what bias looks like, in these, you know, micro-moments of our lives, and also in the decision making in our workplaces.Sonia Paul  05:57Right. And what led the two of you to do this research together? Was there like a tipping point in our cultural conversation? Or was there some sort of emerging research that came out that really pushed you to go in this direction?Ruchika Tulshyan  06:12Yeah, I think that's a great question. And I actually wish there was research that we could cite, because for a few people who might have felt, you know, like, this article was, you know, did not speak to them, or it did not speak to their experience. We did hear from, you know, we heard from some white women, we heard from some men who said, you know, I experienced imposter syndrome to when it's really unfair, or like this doesn't apply, you're talking about just women or women of color. But that's not been my experience as a non-woman or a non-person of color. And sometimes I wish there was research to, to say that, you know, there's a direct link between this very specific phenomenon of feeling imposter syndrome, and how that relates to experiencing sexism and racism in the workplace. The reality is, the link exists. And I think for any of us, or anyone we've spoken to about this topic, even some of the experts that we interviewed, there is definitely a link that I think the academic research needs to catch up to, in all honesty. But I think the tipping point, if I really think about it, is indeed, Jodi-Ann and I often would talk about how we're invited to these events, or how we were expected to sort of address — both of us are professional speakers too — and often we would be asked to address this topic of, how do you overcome self-doubt? How do you overcome imposter syndrome? Or on the converse, how do you be more confident as a woman? And it was really grating against us, because I think both of us connected over the fact that we don't really identify with this term. And yet, we're supposed to keep addressing it in the various audiences, among the various especially female-identifying audiences we were supposed to talk to, or that conferences we were supposed to attend. And it was really grating at us, because what was a common experience that we both had, was experiencing sexism and racism in the workplace as women … This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com

Hi everyone,I hope you all are staying safe and well, despite the pandemic and attempted coup... That being said, this episode of Loitering with Tracie Hunte was recorded just over a week ago at the tail end of 2020 but already feels like a lifetime ago. There’s no transcript, but there is some useful listening that’ll offer context to the discussion (namely this piece about protests and this piece about Nina Simone). I should also mention that while there’s been some radio drama recently, this was pure radio joy.On another note, one of Loitering’s favorite listeners, Chris Turillo, reminded me of this piece recently, and I thought it was worth sharing with all of you.Thanks to Tracie for loitering. :) Here’s to staying strong in 2021.Sonia This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com

Sonia Paul  00:13Hello, everyone, welcome to Loitering, the occasional, but lovable traveling mini pod I am currently testing in newsletter format. And today I am loitering in Fort Greene — Avery Trufelman  00:24Watch out!Sonia Paul  00:25Oh my gosh. I very nearly stepped on poop. And today, I am loitering in Fort Greene Park and walking around Fort Greene with a very special guest. Can you please introduce yourself?Avery Trufelman  00:38Sure. Hi, I'm Avery Trufelman. I make podcasts. And now I live in Brooklyn and I moved here during the pandemic. It's weird.Sonia Paul  00:48And where were you before, Avery?Avery Trufelman  00:50In the Bay Area, where you live, and so it's very weird to be walking with Sonia on the other side of the country now.Sonia Paul  00:58Or not so weird at all.Avery Trufelman  01:00Right. Like, no weirder than anything else that has happened this year. Like, who knows, right? Anything could happen.Sonia Paul  01:05Exactly. Okay, Avery. Um, tell us a little bit about your time since being back in New York. What has been the most memorable aspect for you in the last few months?Avery Trufelman  01:20It's weird, in this moment of extreme nothing, right. Like, I can't go to bars, and I can't really meet people, like, I can't do anything. I can't go to people's homes. It does feel like so much is happening. Like every week bring some sort of little fresh, tiny crisis. And oh, God, was it two weeks ago? I waited in line. It's funny, now that I live in New York have to go back to saying "on line," like, New Yorkers say, like, I waited on line. And I used to say that when I moved to California, and everyone was like, what does that mean? Like, the internet? But now that I'm back, I have to untrain my — like, get back to my New Yorker-ism of waiting on line. So I was waiting on line for a test. And the line was so long — Sonia PaulWait, a test for what? Avery TrufelmanA COVID test, a COVID test, which like, we all have to do all the time now. And it takes forever, and it's freezing. It's like, totally hellish. And um, I did a rapid test. And that day, they called me. And they're like, you've, you tested positive. I was like, oh, oh, I had no symptoms at all. I was shocked. And um.Sonia Paul  02:00Why, what prompted you to get a test in the first place?Avery Trufelman  02:25Oh, because it was like, Thanksgiving, and I was about to go home. So it was 10 days before Thanksgiving. And I was like, you know, it's the thing to do, like take a test and then quarantine. I was like, make sure I'm negative and then quarantine. And I was not expecting the test to come back positive. It was super — it was super weird. And um, it was kind of fascinating because I watched the mechanisms of New York State sort of snap into gear. The contact tracers called me, they called me every day. I got sent this pack of like, masks and hand sanitizer. And I mean, the amenities here are kind of amazing. They'll put you up in a hotel if you need it. They asked me to list every business I had interacted with, every person I'd interacted with. I had to go and call everyone and be like, "Hey, I just want to let you know that I tested positive for COVID." And it was a total nightmare. It was like, oh, this is what it must have felt like during the AIDS crisis, to call everyone up and be like, "Hey, I have this thing." And a lot of people were really understanding. Some people were furious.Sonia Paul  03:29Can I ask, like, this rapid test. I mean, given that you had no known exposures, no known symptoms… Like, how confident, how certain were you about these results? Like, were you in disbelief at all? Avery Trufelman  03:44Oh, well I mean, it seems likely, like, there are a lot of asymptomatic carriers. And also like, I'm not a scientist. I don't know. I feel like there's so much of a doctrine of healthy skepticism now. Like, Leticia Wright just posted that tweet about like, "Maybe we shouldn't trust the vaccines." And like, I don't want to be anti-medicine. Like, it would just be the perfect American a*****e thing to do, to test positive and be like, "Nah, I don't believe it." Like, of course, I, I quarantined, I didn't do anything. And my friends were so sweet. Like, my friend sent me groceries, my friend sent me flowers, which like, honestly, I really needed. It was very weird to be like, ah, I want a snack, and like, not be able to go to the store and get it. So, I waited a few days, and then I took more COVID tests, I took three more. I took like, a rapid and a PCR and a saliva test. And I was really stressed out, and those all came back negative.Sonia Paul  04:38Interesting, because, you know, isn't it the case too that the rapid tests aren't that accurate anyway? I mean, like — Avery Trufelman  04:45Which I'm learning. Yeah, apparently, they're like, not even legal in Denmark. They're terrible science.Sonia Paul  04:50So why do you think we have something called rapid tests?Avery Trufelman  04:54Cuz we're busy, we need our test results now! And that was me, I was like, "I need these results today. Like, I'm so busy." Doing what? There's literally nowhere to go. I don't know why. So I feel like that's part of like a shift in the cultural ethos, is we need to be like, just wait three days for a PCR test. Yeah, so it was crazy. It was like, oh, it was a false positive. I still quarantined anyway, for the full time, just to be certain. As much as anyone can be certain about anything. But yeah, like, I think it's important to be skeptical of the rapid tests, but you know, it's like a fine line to walk, right? I think all the time about that brilliant New Yorker comic, where it shows a guy in an airplane. And he's like, "Who's sick of these elitist pilots flying the plane? Who thinks I should fly the plane?" It's like, that's America. Like, I don't want to be like, "Listen, as a human, I don't trust doctors." Like, of course I trust science, and I trust experts and the people who are risking their lives for us every day. So I don't know, I don't know what to make of it. I can't say it's like, fundamentally shifted the way I believe. I think I'm just like, that's a crazy — that was a crazy fluke. And it's really hard to know that my scenario was a best-case scenario? Like, I wasn't even sick. And it still sucked. It still sucks just to like, culturally, go around and tell everyone that I tested positive. And have some people be mad at me and like, nurse the uncertainty and quarantine. Like, all of that already sucked. I cannot imagine actually being sick on top of it. And, you know, my family got in a huge argument about whether or not I should come home for Thanksgiving. And just to realize how the policy and the science of this moment is actually just affecting our personal lives. And I'm sure similar problems are ricocheting throughout the country and throughout the world right now on all these divides. So, I mean, I hope, pray, inshallah, that, you know, I don't test positive again. But in a weird way, I'm kind of grateful for the experience, to have almost like, roleplayed, what it would have been like to test positive and to know the resources that are there. But man, that was a — that was a trip.Sonia Paul  07:08Yeah, I mean, like... so you went through all the steps. You pretended — I mean, you did, theoretically, according to this rapid test, have COVID. But...I know you mentioned that it hasn't fundamentally altered the way you think. But, do you think this year, with all the uncertainty it has wrought... Has it made you question what it means to be certain about the future? Or certain about whatever present circumstances you thought you could count on?Avery Trufelman  07:44That's a good question. You know, honestly, I think I've always prided myself as the kind of person who like, says yes to everything. If someone's like, want to go to this weird event, I'm like, "Yeah, t… This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com

Hi everyone,Well, the day is finally here. Election day. And here is some perspective on what you’re thinking about the election, from Josh in El Cerrito.Meanwhile, a story I started working on last October finally came out last Friday. It’s gotten a lot more attention than I anticipated, which I think is a good thing. Here’s a link to it if you’re interested, and here’s a link to a Twitter thread with some broader points (and you can see it’s also attracted a number of trolls).Speaking of trolls: To the person who signed up for Loitering with the email address “[email protected]” — bravo. You sure know how to not be discreet about your intentions.Ok, more again after the election! Take care. XO,SoniaMusic for this work, "Loitering on the Election", is a derivative of "Gaena" by Blue Dot Sessions, used under CC BY-NC 4.0. "Gaena" is licensed under CC BY-NC 4.0 by Sonia Paul. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com