Suleika Jaouad joins our show today to discuss her extraordinary book "Between Two Kingdoms." Suleika shares her story of receiving an early-in-life cancer diagnosis and the way that experience changed her relationship to her sense of community and hope.
Suleika is a journalist, writer, speaker, and cancer survivor. She has written for The New York Times, Vogue, and NPR and her memoir “Between Two Kingdoms” details her journey of being treated and recovering from leukemia at the age of twenty two.
Join Jen and Suleika as they discuss the following:
Suleika's experience of being diagnosed with cancer at a young age and how it changed her perspective in life.
The vital role of community and support during challenging times, and how Suleika's own community rallied around her during her illness.
The challenges of writing a memoir and going from a journalist to a memoirist, professionally
How to practice self compassion while experiencing “Big Grief” in all it’s different stages
* * *
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“I think as a culture we're so focused on positivity and self-improvement and on living our best lives that we sort of forget how to live in discomfort.” - Suleika Jouad
“We live in a culture where we're told that if we only work hard enough, we can live the life that we've always wanted to live. I've been told that my whole life. And you know, there's that saying that when you make plans, god laughs.” - Suleika Jouad
“I have a post-it note on my desk that's sort of my guiding light in terms of what I'm trying to do when I write. And it says, if you want to write a good book, write what you don't want others to know about you. Yeah. And if you want to write a great book, write what you don't want to know about yourself.” - Suleika Jouad
“With the distance of time, I see that what I initially thought of as a complete loss of my identity was actually an invitation to get closer to my truer self.” - Suleika Jouad
“I was a planner, I was a doer. I was someone who had a one year plan and a five year plan and a 10 year plan, and all of that went up in smoke when I got sick. Yeah. Um, and I realized that for much of my adult life, all four years of it at that point, uh, I really summed up my sense of self based on achievement, based on my work ethic, based on my output, based on my grade point average. Yep. And all of that was stripped away from me when I got sick. I lost my job overnight. I was dependent on my parents as much as I've been since elementary school. That's right. I lost my independence, even my ability to shower alone, which for someone who doesn't like to ask for help, who had always thought of myself as fiercely independent, that was a hard pill to swallow.” -Suleika Jouad
Suleika Jouad Website
Suleika’s Instagram - @suleikajaouad
Suleika’s Twitter - @suleikajaouad
Suleik’s Facebook - @SuleikaJaouadPage
Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode
“Wolfish” by Erica Berry
Connect with Jen!
More episodes from "For The Love With Jen Hatmaker Podcast"
For the Love of Funny: Tom Papa Takes His Comedy Personally
54:03We’re knee-deep in our “For the Love of Funny” series, celebrating all things hilarious and witty. Jen’s been a long-time fan and amateur participant in the world of comedy, and our guest today explores one of her tip-top favorite genres of comedy. He's a master of observational humor, turning even the most mundane moments of life into pure comedy gold. Our guest, Tom Papa, is not just a comedian—he's a whirlwind of talent with a remarkable career spanning two decades. From his uproarious Netflix specials "What A Day" and "You're Doing Great," to his writing and stand-up projects in comedy clubs and for shows like NPR’s "Live From Here," to his acting roles, Tom has done it all. He and Jen discuss the common theme of mining gold from your family to create some of your best comedy material (but avoiding presenting that said material to them, because family can be brutal critics). They also discuss Tom’s new passion–baking, and how between writing, doing comedy and various shows, he’s in the kitchen tending to all the processes involved with producing amazing bread and other baked goods. To that end, Tom also hosts his own podcast called "Breaking Bread with Tom Papa," where he invites guests for lively discussions over meals. Like a lot of comedians, Tom is more than just funny—he's a thoughtful, insightful individual who gives you something to think about between all the laughs. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Jen Hatmaker BookClub | Visit jenhatmakerbookclub.com and use code READ at checkout $5 off your purchase! ABLE | Visit https://www.ableclothing.com/ and use code JEN to save at checkout BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/forthelove to save 10% on your first month! Thought-Provoking Quotes: “My uncle Tony was really funny. He would sit at the table and hold court. Then some cousins were funny, and so I definitely gravitated toward those people; that always kind of informed me. And I started doing that around my friends very, very early.” - Tom Papa “[In my comedy] I relate through family and the small stuff. It's like it is observational, but it's not. It's very personal observational, in a way." - Tom Papa "When you’re around people that are doing what you want to do, in time, you just want someone to say, 'it'll work. Just tell me. It'll work out.' It's like sometimes you go to the doctor, 'just tell me everything's all right.'" - Tom Papa “[My favorite thing] is standup, but that almost goes without saying. That's just me. So to even call that one of the things is kind of not fair. It's so good. It's so great. You get the response, you get the physical, the mental, the applause, the scariness, all of it is so raw and potent out of the other stuff that I do." - Tom Papa "One of the biggest hurdles that writers have is, is your own head saying, 'is this good enough?' And you start tearing it down and stop yourself from working with your critical mind." - Tom Papa "There's a quiet joy I have knowing as you're baking over an hour and you're opening the oven and taking the lid off of the dutch oven and then just knowing when you hit that point where the house is now filled with that smell, there's a quiet, I know I'm doing good; I may not be giving you great advice, or maybe, I've been a little short, who knows? But at least I added this." - Tom Papa “There's a perspective that you get at a certain stage in life. Right now there's lots of change and there's lots of external forces and internal stuff. There's a lot going on, but I feel like I've played this game and have a calmness and a perspective that is really, really valuable.” - Tom Papa Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Class Clown (Comedy Album by George Carlin) Let's Get Small (Comedy Album by Steve Martin) The Comedy Store Comedy Cellar Gary Gulman Ryan Hamilton Maria Bamford Colin Quinn Mateo Lane Ali Wong Live From Here A Prairie Home Companion with Garrison Keillor Come to Papa Chris Thile The Fitzgerald Theater Daily Rituals by Mason Currey Getting Baked with Tom Papa // The Best Italian Ciambella Ever! Getting Baked with Tom Papa // How To Start Baking Sourdough Jen’s No-Cook Thai Peanut Chicken Salad Recipe Guest’s Links: Tom’s Website Tom’s Facebook Tom’s Instagram Tom’s Twitter Tom’s YouTube Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
Sheltered Kids Who Grew Up To Be Funny: Trey + Katie Kennedy and Jake Triplett
57:49We’re back with more funny, and this week doesn’t disappoint. For those of you who grew up in the Bible Belt and maybe went to a conservative church (or even if you didn’t), perhaps you were a bit sheltered like our guests this week. Before racking up over 12 million combined followers on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook and elsewhere, and hosting the hit podcast Correct Opinions, comedian Trey Kennedy came to fame on the short-form videosharing app Vine. His hilarious and pointed videos ranged from imitating a church youth pastor who is cornily trying to be cool and up on pop culture, to an overly sunny Dad who tries to drag his teenage son out of bed to go to church. Now, Trey has teamed up with his friend Jake Triplett, who he met at a Christian camp, and the two co host the podcast, along with Trey’s wife Katie (who keeps the pair on track and from going down too many rabbit holes). In this episode, the trio and Jen share the commonalities of their Baptist church upbringings, their naivete about dating customs (hearing Jake’s assessment of what he thought french kissing was will make you howl), and how Trey’s Bible wielding grandmother had a serious talk with him about rumours of him being gay (He’s not. Not that there’s anything wrong with that). They've managed to turn being 'sheltered' into comedy gold, and they’ve been taking their brand of comedy all around the country with their recent “Grow Up” tour and their clean comedy is resonating everywhere. Their funny spin on their past doesn't just give us a good laugh; it also makes anyone who had a similar childhood feel like part of a big, quirky family. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Jen Hatmaker BookClub | Visit jenhatmakerbookclub.com and use code READ at checkout $5 off your purchase! FOCL | Visit https://focl.com/ and use code FORTHELOVE at checkout for 20% off of your purchase ABLE | Visit https://www.ableclothing.com/ and use code JEN to save at checkout Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Vine Correct Opinions (Podcast hosted by Trey, Katie, and Jake) Trey Kennedy’s Grow Up Comedy Tour Jake Triplett’s Sheltered Kid Special Shiny Happy People Docuseries For the Love Episode ft. John Crist Make Me Care About Podcast Interview with Melinda Gates Guest’s Links: Trey’s Website Trey’s Instagram Trey’s Facebook Trey’s Twitter Jake’s Instagram Jake’s Facebook Jake’s Twitter Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
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For the Love of Funny: Finding The Funny In Our Wins and Losses with R. Eric Thomas
55:38We’re back with more of our For the Love of Funny series, and this week we’re asking the question; is it possible to find humor not only in our lighter moments, but also in our vulnerable and difficult times? Our guest this week specializes in wit through the written word–and he has found that it is possible to find joy, while being heartfelt and hilarious at the same time. We’re welcoming R. Eric Thomas, back to the show! Whether he’s writing about politics, pop culture, or celebrity craziness–Eric has a refreshing and hilarious perspective–which really helps when regular reporting on politics and news might send us spiraling into the darkness. Eric is also a television writer (Dickinson on AppleTV+, Better Things on FX), a playwright, and a bestselling author of several books, including Here For It: Or How To Save Your Soul in America and his newest work, a collection of hilarious essays called Congratulations The Best Is Over. Eric brings that laugh we need when the world seems bonkers, and helps remind us that we can find something to laugh at in almost every situation–we just have to be open to it. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/forthelove to save 10% on your first month! Trust and Will - Get 10% and Free Shipping when Visit trustandwill.com/forthelove. See how Trust and Will can benefit you! FOCL - Visit https://focl.com/ and use code FORTHELOVE at checkout for 20% off of your purchase Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Be grateful that you got to this place because this is where you wanted to be. Don't spend so much time thinking, ‘What if it all goes away?’” - R. Eric Thomas “I think to myself, ‘If you were better, then you'd be busier and that would make you happier.’ I don't know that busier equals happier. I don't know if that's true.” - R. Eric Thomas “I remember the first time somebody came up to me in the street and said, ‘Hey, this is weird, but I follow your Facebook, a friend of mine told me to, and you're funny.’ And I'm like, ‘Who are you? What's happening? Where are the cameras?’” - R. Eric Thomas “I know from my own experience as a reader and as a writer, you can have a good time with something that is both funny and heartfelt.” - R. Eric Thomas “I posted an Instagram story that was essentially like, ‘I got rejected from this thing, but my Beyonce´ hat came. So there are pluses and minuses.’ People really responded. They were like, ‘Thank you for sharing not only your wins but your losses. It seems like you're always winning.’ I'm like, ‘baby, I am always losing, but I'm not going to share that.’” - R. Eric Thomas Resources Mentioned in This Episode: For the Love of Finding Truth ft. Eric Thomas Eric Reads the News Dickinson Better Things Here for It by R. Eric Thomas Congratulations, The Best is Over by R. Eric Thomas Reclaiming Her Time: The Power of Maxine Waters by R. Eric Thomas and Helena Andrews-Dyer Kings of B’more by R. Eric Thomas Lynn Nottage’s Website The Getaway Car: A Practical Memoir About Writing and Life by Ann Patchett The Enneagram Institute Broken (in the best possible way) by Jenny Lawson My Point…And I Do Have One by Ellen Degeneres There’s Nothing in This Book That I Meant to Say by Paula Poundstone The Moth For the Love Podcast episode with Anne Bogel Guest’s Links: R. Eric Thomas’s Website R. Eric Thomas’s Instagram R. Eric Thomas’s Twitter R. Eric Thomas’s Facebook Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
Yelled at By A Clown: How Nate Bargatze Found His Funny
51:25We’re looking for laughs and we found them in all the right places, and we’re sharing the hilarity with a brand new series called For the Love Of Funny. If you’ve hung out with us for any amount of time, you know that Jen is an avid devotee of all things funny. So we’ve rounded up some of her favorite funny people to not only bring us laughs, but to unpack the art and science of making people laugh. And for our very first episode, we couldn’t be more delighted to welcome “The Tennessee Kid” himself–Nate Bargatze! Nate’s known for his down-to-earth humor and deadpan comedy delivery, his highly viewed Netflix specials, and his favored status as a frequent guest on “The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon: (10+ times!). Surprise guest interviewer Tyler Merritt joins Jen as they pull back the curtain on Nate’s comedy journey. Often referred to as the “nicest man in standup,” Nate talks about growing up in a performance forward home (his dad was a Christian magician), the origins of some of his funniest jokes (Yelled at By a Clown, anyone?) and the side of fame that isn’t so pretty–like his sister’s incredulity that anyone would want to take a selfie with him. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Chime | Visit chime.com/forthelove to learn how you can benefit from using Chime! Jen Hatmaker BookClub | Visit jenhatmakerbookclub.com and use code READ at checkout $5 off your purchase! FOCL | Visit https://focl.com/ and use code FORTHELOVE at checkout for 20% off of your purchase Resources Mentioned in This Episode: For the Love Episode ft. Kevin Nealon Nate Bargatze: The Tennessee Kid Nate Bargatze: The Greatest Average American The Nateland Podcast The Be Funny Tour The Second City Comedy Club Hannibal Buress’s Website Kumail Nanjiani T.J. Miller’s Website Pete Holmes Website Amy Schumer’s Website Aziz Ansari’s Website Dusty Slay’s Website Sinbad: Afros & Bellbottoms Brian Regan’s Website Kurt Metzger’s Website Big J Oakerson’s Website Bill Burr’s Website Dave Attell’s Website Eddie Murphy: Raw Eddie Murphy: Delirious The Comic Strip Steve Martin Justin Smith’s Website Guest’s Links: Nate’s Website Nate’s Instagram Nate’s TikTok Nate’s YouTube Channel Nate’s Twitter Nate’s Facebook Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
Redefining Community & Friendships When Faced With The Unexpected ft. Emma Nadler
37:55As we close in on the end of our Community and Friendships series, we’re reflecting on the great conversations we’ve had toward building relationships in our lives. And this week’s convo puts the cherry on top as we discuss our friends as “chosen family” and the shape that our friendship and communities take when we are in a place where we need extra support. Our guest this week, Emma Nadler, is a therapist, author and speaker who is doing valuable work in helping people build deeper relationships. Emma knows firsthand what it means to rely on her circle in ways she never thought she would, when her daughter was diagnosed with a DNA disorder, shifting the life she knew, and navigating the special care, multiple hospital stays, and more than full-time parenting her daughter needs. By leaning on her community and being brave enough to ask for help (when sometimes the tendency is to act like we’ve got it all under control). Emma’s goal is to show us how we can look beyond preconceived notions about what it means to be valued and to belong, and leads us toward building a world where thriving in community is possible for every single person. Emma and Jen touch on: What it looks like when our “family” looks different than expected in the context of friendships and our communities How to understand and learn to tolerate our emotions when it comes to interacting with friends and community and how to find meaning in everything—good and bad Practical steps on fostering really authentic connections, asking for help, and creating inclusive spaces The power of being direct when reaching out to connect with new people, or friends you’ve drifted from, to foster a deeper relationship There’s so much value in learning how to meaningfully connect with others and create communities and friendships that celebrate our joyful times and anchor us at difficult times. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Jen Hatmaker BookClub | Visit jenhatmakerbookclub.com and use code READ at checkout $5 off your purchase! FOCL | Visit https://focl.com/ and use code FORTHELOVE at checkout for 20% off of your purchase BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/forthelove to save 10% on your first month! Thought-Provoking Quotes: “We're born into something and we get certain things from that family; we might get a lot of things. We might get a lot of love. Some people do, some people don't get what they need. I think we can take that and build on it in the relationships that we create in our lives.” - Emma Nadler “There are 53 million caregivers in the United States right now and we can really feel alone, even though we're not. Often our work [leaves us] tucked away. We're at home. We have so much that we're grappling with that isn't seen. And so it can really feel [lonely].” - Emma Nadler “What would it be like to be open with people about what we are looking for in our relationships, what we want, and really let that in? ” - Emma Nadler “To me, in relationships, the question I'm most interested in is, do we want the same things out of this relationship?” - Emma Nadler “We're full of possibilities. We just never know when we're gonna meet someone who will change our life.” - Emma Nadler Resources Mentioned in This Episode: The Unlikely Village of Eden by Emma NadlerFeed These People by Jen Hatmaker Dr. Robert Waldinger’s Harvard Second Generation Study Guest’s Links: Emma’s Website Emma’s Instagram Emma’s Facebook Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s Instagram Jen’s Twitter Jen’s Facebook Jen’s YouTube PLEASE NOTE: Listening to this podcast in no way creates a client/therapist relationship with Emma Nadler. This is educational in nature. No legal, counseling, or other professional services are being rendered and nothing is intended to provide such services or advice of any kind. If you are having a mental health emergency, please contact 911 or go to your nearest emergency room. You can also text or call 988 for the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline (within the United States).
The Hardest Part of Friendship; When It’s Time To Say Goodbye ft. Erin Falconer
56:53We’re back with our “For the Love of Community and Friendship Series, and this week, we delve into an area of friendship that all of us may face, but inevitably dread. It’s that moment when you know a friendship has run its course, or perhaps has become toxic, or you’ve just drifted apart–and you don’t know how to go forward. When life changes, when we change, and a friendship no longer serves us, how do we gracefully (and honestly) communicate about it? Our guest this week, who is here to walk us through this touchy topic, is writer, former standup comedian and political consultant Erin Falconer. Erin's written a book called How to Break Up With Your Friends: Finding Meaning, Connection and Boundaries in Modern Friendships. Lest you think this is just a conversation on how to wipe your friend slate clean, stick around–you’ll hear Jen and Erin talk about how to create and maintain the healthiest friendships through all the seasons of our lives in order to avoid the painful friend breakup. They also discuss: Erin’s “Six Pillars of Friendship” that help us take stock of who is in our life and how we’re serving each other What to do when we see a friendship has run its course or needs to shift or change in some way How to keep the source of joy going in our adult friendships, and minimize the pain It’s tough to grapple with the complexities of friendship breakups, but it all starts with building healthy relationships from the start. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Trust and Will - Get 10% and Free Shipping when Visit trustandwill.com/forthelove. See how Trust and Will can benefit you! FOCL - Visit https://focl.com/ and use code FORTHELOVE at checkout for 20% off of your purchase Jen Hatmaker BookClub | Visit jenhatmakerbookclub.com and use code READ at checkout $5 off your purchase! Thought-Provoking Quotes: “There's no collectively agreed upon language out there in the zeitgeist about how to navigate conflict in [friend] relationships. There’s no blueprint for what a good one looks like, what a bad one looks like, and how to get out of good bad ones and into good ones." - Erin Falconer “The default setting on any one relationship should be one of positivity. It's so easy to slip into negative thinking and negative conversations because they feel so good. They feel like you're seen and you're heard and done. But you have to be really careful to not lean too heavily into those things.” - Erin Falconer “Relationships take work. To show up, you need to commit to the other person and you have to find your rhythm of what that looks like. It doesn't mean you have to be getting dinner every week, but there has to be some kind of agreed-upon level of commitment in this.” - Erin Falconer “It is true that individuals themselves can be toxic people. That is such a small percentage of people. It is, in this case, the relationship that is toxic, and even if somebody else is behaving badly, you've allowed them to continue to show up in this way in your life. We teach people how to treat us and there's a certain degree of responsibility we need to own within these relationships because with responsibility comes freedom and power.” - Erin Falconer “Relationships are very much a mirror to you. The more you explore these types of relationships, the more you explore yourself. To that end, understanding who is in your world is really important to understanding who you are.” - Erin Falconer Resources Mentioned in This Episode: For the Love of Reconnecting ft. Nedra Tawwab How to Break Up with Your Friends: Finding Meaning, Connection, and Boundaries in Modern Friendships by Erin Falconer Marie Kondo Guest’s Links: Erin’s Instagram Erin’s Twitter Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
Shannan Martin on Friendship: “It Starts with Hello”
1:04:36When was the last time you reached out to one of your neighbors? Not just the people you feel comfortable with, but the ones who live near that you might not know beyond a “How are you?” in passing. As we continue our Community and Friendship series, we’re taking a look at why it enriches our lives (and the lives of our neighbors) to invest in the people around us. It doesn’t have to mean they all become our best friends, but a little curiosity, a little paying attention, and a little effort to listen will go a long way in developing the kinds of relationships that make life sweeter. To help guide this conversation, we’re delighted to welcome author and speaker Shannan Martin back to the show! Through her writing, Shannan has revolutionized the way we think about relationships with her refreshing perspectives. She articulates the need for genuine, deep-seated friendships that stretch beyond conventional norms. She also unravels the complexities of forging meaningful connections in our modern world, and her last book “Start with Hello” beckons us toward extending hospitality in ways that might feel awkward at first, but will net us that sense of community and belonging we all long for. Shannan and Jen discuss: How Shannan, a self proclaimed introvert, faced her loneliness after she and her family moved from the country to the city by getting outside her comfort zone and making herself available to meet her neighbors What it means to be deeply embedded in a neighborhood where you are both a good neighbor, and your neighbors are good neighbors to you How making new friends, no matter how big or small, always starts with a simple “hello” and the small steps towards getting to know someone by making eye contact, paying attention and helping when we can Shannan and Jen agree that when we reach out beyond our fears, beyond our comfort level, and beyond our borders with radical hospitality, good things start to happen in our neighborhoods which then trickle out to our communities and begin to affect society as a whole. And, be sure to stay with us ‘til the very end–you won’t want to miss a little bonus chat among friends about whether ice cream is healthy for you or not, and what flavors Jen and Shannan swear by. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/forthelove to save 10% on your first month! Jen Hatmaker BookClub | Visit jenhatmakerbookclub.com and use code READ at checkout $5 off your purchase! FOCL | Visit https://focl.com/ and use code FORTHELOVE at checkout for 20% off of your purchase Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Every relationship that we have, whether it's the smallest acquaintance or our truest loves, began with a hello.” - Shannan Martin “There's this unfair idea that if somebody is unhoused, they're gonna be inherently a danger to us and it's just simply not true.” - Shannan Martin “What if we just decided to eat together? What if we decided that nobody is exempt from being in our home? Everybody's invited. That makes life really interesting.” - Shannan Martin Resources Mentioned in This Episode: For the Love of Books Series The Window (a nonprofit organization out of Goshen, IN) Shannan’s Books For the Love Episode ft. Osheta Moore An article on the health benefits of Ice Cream by The Atlantic Toad the Wet Sprocket Tour Crack the Case by Dawes Guest’s Links: Shannan’s Website Shannan’s Twitter Shannan’s Instagram Shannan’s Facebook Connect with Jen!: Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
What Is Your Friendship Attachment Style? Ft. Dr. Marisa Franco
54:08Hey friends, we are back with another episode in our For the Love of Community & Friendships, and we happen to have a true friend of the show returning to lay down some expertise about what it means to make and keep friends. We’re delighted to have Dr. Marisa Franco, (who also partnered with Jen to create a MeCourse on Friendship) who delves into the fascinating world of friendship attachment styles. Dr. Franco shares her extensive knowledge and insights on how our attachment styles, often formed during our early years, can significantly influence the type of friendships we form as adults. She discusses the three main types of attachment styles—secure, avoidant, and anxious—and explains how understanding our own style can help us navigate our friendships more effectively. Jen and Marisa touch on: How the three main types of attachment styles can change over time as we typically become more secure as we mature How, when we’re younger, we tend to have more friends (and friends who are very similar to us) as we look to expand our identity, and when we become more solid in our identity, we’re more open to be friends with people who are different from us Why friendship doesn’t just typically “happen,”--it takes effort, and some ways you can put yourself out there to make new friends, and how to do the work to keep the friends you already have How to approach conflict in friendship where we kindly share our needs with a spirit of reconciliation over an attitude of defensiveness * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Chime | Visit chime.com/forthelove to learn how you can benefit from using Chime! FOCL | Visit https://focl.com/ and use code FORTHELOVE at checkout for 20% off of your purchase Jen Hatmaker BookClub | Visit jenhatmakerbookclub.com and use code READ at checkout $5 off your purchase! Thought-Provoking Quotes: “If you don't understand your attachment style, you think that the world is just mean and cruel and people are gonna reject you or people are going to betray you. If you're more avoidant and you don't have any power, you don't have any agency because all the issues are out in the world.” - Dr. Marisa Franco “I think if we can understand our attachment styles, we have more agency, we have more control, we can shift our behaviors and we can find the relationships that we really want.” - Dr. Marisa Franco “People are a lot more likely to be friends with people that are similar to them. It's called homophily. The value of these similar relationships is they do make us feel very safe.” - Dr. Marisa Franco “We see in the research that people who see friendship as happening without effort are more likely to be lonely five years later. People that see it as requiring effort are less likely to be lonely five years later.” - Dr. Marisa Franco “What we see in the research is that when people try to reconnect with someone, that person is happier to receive that reconnection than we predict.” - Dr. Marisa Franco “In a healthy conflict, I think of; what does this conflict look like without blame? What if I go into here not trying to blame this person, not trying to even assume that they were trying to intentionally hurt me. So then, how do I navigate it with that being what's going on in my head?” - Dr. Marisa Franco Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Platonic How The Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep Friends a book by Dr. Marisa Franco Guest’s Links: Dr. Franco’s Website Dr. Franco’s Instagram Dr. Franco’s Facebook Dr. Franco’s Twitter Dr. Franco’s Psychology Today Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
The Friendships That Save Us: Maggie Smith
51:15Genuine heart friendships have an incredible impact on our lives, including our health. Many recent studies tout the connection between health and the quality of your relationships, and that loneliness (not to be confused with being alone) can have a negative effect on our health–possibly even bigger than smoking or drinking or poor eating. So is it possible that our friends can actually help save us? Our guest today thinks so; writer and poet extraordinaire Maggie Smith recently went through a divorce and she credits her close knit friend group for being “her parachute” in that process (much like Jen’s friends have been for her as well). Jen and Maggie discuss these topics around friendship: The way friends can invest in you in a way that family isn’t able to when you’re going through disruptive life moments The friends that intuitively know what you need during a rough patch and show up proactively with solutions so you don’t feel so lost How we can nurture those “life saving” friendships by being a good friend ourselves Thank God for the friends who remind us of who we are–of our core goodness and worth– when a disruptive time shakes up our identity. They help bring us back to ourselves. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Jen Hatmaker BookClub | Visit jenhatmakerbookclub.com and use code READ at checkout $5 off your purchase! Caraway | Save 10% on your next purchase on all Caraway products by visiting carawayhome.com/forthelove and use code: forthelove BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/forthelove to save 10% on your first month! Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I was in a ‘not seeing the forest for the trees' mode. I was painting an inch from the canvas. I had no idea what the shape of anything was and I was just panicked and trying to spackle everything back together as quickly as I could. And so having people who could remind me of my goodness, my core worth, which I think is so easy to forget in these moments." - Maggie Smith "When friends come in, they're not necessarily invested in the relationship. They're invested in your happiness. Whatever that looks like for you, it doesn't actually impact your friend a block away. If your marriage doesn't work the same way it impacts your family, who's thinking, 'Oh, what are we gonna do for Christmas now?'" - Maggie Smith “I think there's something that we do that hurts our adult friendships in particular, which is why we prioritize them sometimes way below our romantic relationships. It happens even when we're dating. We all knew or we were the girl who was 15 and as soon as she got a boyfriend stopped hanging out with her friends on the weekends because she was like, ‘I just wanna be with my boyfriend and if he's busy then I can come hang out.’” - Maggie Smith "Maybe someone hurt you five years ago now seems pretty small and not unmanageable or unforgivable. So what would it take to just reach out, call your friends, and have them help you craft a text to someone that you haven't talked to in a while, or leave a voicemail—if you're phone brave, I am not phone brave, so I would text or probably email. If you know where they live, send a little postcard that has some little private joke or something that reminds you of them." - Maggie Smith Resources Mentioned in This Episode: You Could Make This Place Beautiful: A Memoir by Maggie Smith My Thoughts Have Wings by Maggie Smith (A picture book releasing in winter 2024 by Maggie Smith) Moving Forward After Pain Rips Your Script: Maggie Smith (FTL Episode featuring Maggie Smith) Guest’s Links: Maggie’s Website Maggie’s Instagram Maggie’s Twitter Maggie’s Facebook Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
Finding Friends, Keeping Them and What To Do When You Break Up: Laura Tremaine
1:09:32We’re in a brand new series; For the Love of Friends and Community. Friendship and community often serve as the cornerstone for many women's lives, providing a vital support system that nurtures connection, empathy, and mutual growth. In a recent survey from Psych Central, nearly half of most women report having fewer than 3 close friends, one third report having between 4-9 close friends, and 12% say they have no close friends at all. We know that friendship contributes to more satisfaction in life and is good for our overall health. So what’s the key to finding and keeping friends? How many friends do we need to get those good friend vibes? Our guest this week, author and podcaster Laura Tremaine, has written extensively about friendship, drawing from her own experiences and the experiences of other women she has talked to. Laura wants us to identify, create and nurture these deep connections that we long for. She also teaches us that friendship takes work, and vulnerably shares her friendship fails (yes, even a friendship expert has a few friend misses now and again). Jen and Laura discuss: The key qualities that make a friendship meaningful and enduring, and how those things are defined by what you value A rundown of the things we all may think are important about friendship and looking at the things that aren’t as important as we’ve been made to believe they are How to navigate friendship breakups and friendships ending, allowing grief over that loss, and leaving room for that vacant “chair” to be filled by someone new Finding the “fellow obsessive” friend - the one you can geek out about with things that you both love Creating meaningful friendships is not just about having a social circle. It's about experiencing true companionship and vulnerability and support. And it's these soul connections that can bring so much joy and fulfillment to our lives. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! MeCourse: LGBTQIA+ | LGBTQIA+ Parenting e-course from Jen and special guests is available for order. Visit https://www.mecourse.org/lgbtqia-parenting for more info. FOCL | Visit https://focl.com/ and use code FORTHELOVE at checkout for 20% off of your purchase Jen Hatmaker BookClub | Visit jenhatmakerbookclub.com and use code READ at checkout $5 off your purchase! Thought-Provoking Quotes: “You can have all the data about why we connect or don't connect or how many people we can reasonably connect with. There's data and then there's actually real life.” - Laura Tremaine “It's great to have the friends who knew you when. It's also great to have friends who are like, ‘I had no idea you used to be that way and I'm glad we're meeting at this stage.’” - Laura Tremaine “My friendship with one of my best friends ended not by my choice, and it was as devastating as any romantic breakup I have ever been through.” - Laura Tremaine “Sharing your stuff, even when it's messy, brings you closer to who you are.” - Laura Tremaine “When you make a new friend and someone likes this newest version of you that you have fought so hard to be, how validating is that?” - Laura Tremaine “Friendship is a to-do and I have to put it on my to-do list like I put work tasks on my to-do list.” - Laura Tremaine Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Share Your Stuff I’ll Go First (a book by Laura Tremaine) Friends song by Michael W. Smith Brené Brown’s Websites Jamie B. Golden Steven King Summer (A book club with Laura Tremaine) On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft by Stephen King The Stand by Stephen King Guest’s Links: Laura’s Instagram Laura’s Facebook Laura’s Podcast Laura’s Amazon Laura’s Website Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube