The UpWords Podcast

What does it mean to follow a calling when the road is filled with disappointment and rejection? And how can storytelling help us remember the past, honor those who came before us, and find hope in the midst of suffering?Host Rebecca Cooks sits down with novelist Bora Lee Reed to discuss Song for Another Home, her debut historical novel inspired by her family's experience during the Korean War. When Chinese forces pushed south in 1950, Bora's father, then 15, fled Pyongyang with his mother and siblings, hiding the family Bible and alarm clock in the rafters because they expected to come home. They never did, and they never saw Bora's grandfather again.Bora Lee Reed talks about the years of rejection that tested her sense of calling, the role of community and Ignatian prayer in her persistence, and how a Reese's Book Club LitUp fellowship opened doors with agents and editors. She reflects on writing about a generation's trauma as a Korean American, the elders who have asked her how she could possibly know what it was like, the remarkable story of how a photograph of her grandfather returned to her family three decades later, and the mystery of faith that deepens rather than breaks under suffering.In this episode• Why becoming a writer and getting published are two different journeys• Rejection as a clarifying moment for vocation• Calling as an iterative process confirmed by joy, a sense of rightness, and the urge to get back up• Inside Reese's Book Club's LitUp fellowship for underrepresented women writers• Her father's flight from Pyongyang and the separation that shaped her family• Why a writing teacher told her to set aside the elders looking over her shoulder• Art as a container where writer and reader make meaning together• How she researched the war, from memoirs to a Pulitzer-winning photograph of the Taedong River bridge• Holding loss and hope together on the page• Her father's faith as a pastor shaped by chaos, displacement, and God's shepherding• The Rilke epigraph and what the title Song for Another Home meansAbout our guestBora Lee Reed was born in Seoul, South Korea, and immigrated to the United States as a young child, growing up in Southern California's Korean immigrant community. She holds an MFA from Warren Wilson College and an MA in theology, and has held residencies at Hedgebrook, Ragdale, and Ucross. A 2023 LitUp Fellow with Reese's Book Club, she lives in Berkeley, California, where she leads communications for UC Berkeley's Goldman School of Public Policy. Song for Another Home (Simon & Schuster, 2026) is her first novel.Resources mentioned• Song for Another Home by Bora Lee Reed — Simon & Schuster• Bora Lee Reed — author page• Rainer Maria Rilke, The Book of Hours • The Ignatian Spiritual Exercises• LitUp by Reese's Book Club• Min Jin Lee, Pachinko Send us Fan MailCONNECT WITH USSubscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave ConourEdited by Dave Conour

In a world of constant notifications, endless scrolling, and voices competing for our attention, what does it take to cultivate a quiet, thoughtful inner life? Host Dan Hummel is joined by guest writer, educator, and Lumen Center fellow Cassandra Nelson to discuss her new book, Who’s Afraid of the Still Small Voice?: Essays on Teaching, Learning, and Faith (One Subject Press, 2026). Drawing on the story of Elijah hearing God not in the earthquake, wind, or fire but in the still small voice, Cassandra makes the case that one of education’s deepest tasks is helping young people develop a rich interior world—the place where imagination grows and conscience is formed. Cassandra and Dan talk about why we read fiction to learn how to live, what the printed page offers that video and audiobooks can’t, how fear and the love of money have come to drive so much of education, and the pressures undermining teachers’ autonomy and authority. They close with James Davison Hunter’s idea of faithful presence, the challenge of slow, relational work in an age of scale, and the signs of hope Cassandra sees today.In this episodeHow a series of essays written over nearly a decade became a bookThe still small voice of 1 Kings 19, and why conscience is where God speaks to usWhy children (and adults) are allowed to have interior worlds of their ownReading fiction to learn how to live, from fairy tales to David Foster WallaceWhat makes the printed word distinct from film, podcasts, and audiobooksLeading with love instead of fear and greed in educationThe case for the humanities, and what ed tech is really solvingWhy teachers are leaving, and the difference between coercion, contract, and covenantFaithful presence, Jeremiah 29, and doing good in exileClassical schools, Christian study centers, and the message “you’re worth it”About our guestCassandra Nelson is a fellow in literature at the Lumen Center in Madison, Wisconsin, and an associate fellow at the University of Virginia’s Institute for Advanced Studies in Culture. She previously taught literature and composition at the United States Military Academy at West Point. She writes about faith, fiction, technology, and culture, and her work has appeared in Comment, Common Good, First Things, Plough, and The Point. She is the author of A Theology of Fiction (Wiseblood Books, 2025).Mentioned in this episodeWho’s Afraid of the Still Small Voice?: Essays on Teaching, Learning, and Faith, Cassandra Nelson (One Subject Press, 2026)A Theology of Fiction, Cassandra Nelson (Wiseblood Books, 2025)“Who’s Afraid of the Still, Small Voice? The Case for Faithful Presence in Education,” Common Good (2023)Knucklehead, Zach CzaiaTo Change the World, James Davison Hunter (source of “faithful presence”)“What Is Authority?”, Hannah Arendt“Good People” and The Pale King, David Foster WallaceThe Big Money, John Dos PassosThe Fun Stuff, James WoodScripture: 1 Kings 19 (Elijah and the still small voice); Jeremiah 29 (seek the welfare of the city)Links•   Get the book: onesubjectpress.com/who-s-afraid-of-the-still-small-voice•   Cassandra Nelson: cassandramarianelson.com•   More from SLBF Studio: slbf.org/studioSend us Fan MailCONNECT WITH USSubscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave ConourEdited by Dave Conour

What does faithfulness look like in a corporate boardroom? Host Joy Fea talks with guest Kristine Braden, whose 26-year career at Citi took her across Latin America, Asia, and Europe, culminating in her leading the bank's business across Europe. Kristine tells the story of the walk to work that turned a committed skeptic into a follower of Jesus, and of the "tent-making" life she and her husband built as he served in burn clinics, slum clinics, orphanages, and refugee ministries wherever her career took them.Kristine shares how she helped the Philippines restructure its debt, how Citi navigated Europe's energy crisis after Russia invaded Ukraine, and why she once accepted a demotion because she sensed God calling her to a new role. She offers practical wisdom on ambition and calling, asking hard questions in high-stakes rooms, building trust as the only woman at the table, reading the news well, and explaining why there is no line between sacred and secular work.IN THIS EPISODE•   Why living in a country, not just visiting it, changed how Kristine understood its economy•   Combining a banking career with her husband's medical missions in four countries•   Saving the Philippines an estimated $150 million in future debt payments•   A church member's warning that "you can't be a banker and be a Christian"•   Letting integrity speak first, and the boss who almost didn't hire her•   Active listening, getting quiet voices to speak, and learning your own voice in a room•   Building trust when you are foreign, female, and young in the room•   Ambition versus calling, and the demotion that turned out to be the right move•   The "taxi test" for separating headlines from facts on the ground•   Starting high-stakes decisions with your constraints•   Advice for young women: start with what you know, then keep adding skillsABOUT OUR GUESTKristine Braden spent 26 years at Citi, beginning in an international management program with postings in the Dominican Republic, the Philippines, Hong Kong, and Cairo. Her roles included Country Officer and Corporate & Investment Banking Head for Switzerland, Monaco, and Liechtenstein; chief of staff to then-Citi CEO Mike Corbat; and Europe Cluster Head and CEO of Citigroup Global Markets Europe AG in Frankfurt. She now serves on corporate boards. She holds a B.A. in political science from the University of California, Berkeley.RESCOURSES MENTIONED•   How Remarkable Women Lead: The Breakthrough Model for Work and Life by Joanna Barsh and Susie Cranston (Crown Business, 2009)•   5 Voices, the team-communication framework from GiANT Worldwide•   Eric Liddell, the Olympic runner portrayed in Chariots of FireSend us Fan MailCONNECT WITH USSubscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave ConourEdited by Dave Conour

For our 200th episode, host Jean Geran welcomes Anglican priest and award-winning author Tish Harrison Warren for a conversation about the spiritual practices that sustain faith over a lifetime.Drawing on her new book, What Grows in Weary Lands: On Christian Resilience, Tish shares how she fell in love with liturgy almost by accident, why she resists dividing life into "spiritual" and "non-spiritual" practices, and what the strange, wholehearted desert fathers and mothers can teach a busy, distracted church. She tells the story behind the opening line of Prayer in the Night, when praying Compline carried her and her husband through a medical emergency, and explains why practices built in ordinary seasons are still there for us in crisis.Jean and Tish also talk about silence as the orienting goal of a day, the role of elders and mentors in a long life of faith, the Madison editor who first told Tish she had a voice, and how patience means learning to meet God in the life we actually have rather than the one we imagine.IN THIS EPISODEHow Tish found her way into Anglicanism and the liturgy during a season of transitionLiturgy vs. spiritual practices, and why napping can be a spiritual practiceA sacramental view of reality: prayer as stepping into a river that is already flowingWho the desert fathers and mothers were, and why the church could stand to be a little weirderSilence and solitude as an orienting goal, not an add-onCompline, suffering, and practices that hold when we have no words of our ownMentorship, elders, and naming the gifts we see in othersConstraint, patience, and the three responses to suffering: flame out, numb out, or go deepMENTIONED IN THIS EPISODEWhat Grows in Weary Lands: On Christian Resilience by Tish Harrison Warren (Convergent, 2026)Liturgy of the Ordinary: Sacred Practices in Everyday Life by Tish Harrison WarrenPrayer in the Night: For Those Who Work or Watch or Weep by Tish Harrison WarrenJames K. A. Smith, Dorothy Bass, Fleming Rutledge, C. S. Lewis, Kaitlyn SchiessThe desert fathers and mothers, St. Benedict, and the office of ComplineThe Well (InterVarsity) and editor Marcia BosscherABOUT OUR GUESTTish Harrison Warren is a writer and a priest in the Anglican Church in North America. Her books include Liturgy of the Ordinary (Christianity Today's 2018 Book of the Year) and Prayer in the Night (Christianity Today's 2022 Book of the Year and the 2022 ECPA Christian Book of the Year). She formerly wrote a weekly newsletter for The New York Times, is a senior fellow with the Trinity Forum, and serves as C. S. Lewis Theological Writer-in-Residence at Baylor University's Truett Seminary. She lives in Austin, Texas, with her husband and three children. Learn more at tishharrisonwarren.com. Send us Fan MailCONNECT WITH USSubscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave ConourEdited by Dave Conour

When most people hear “apologetics,” they think of courtroom-style arguments for the resurrection or bestsellers like The Case for Christ. But those are only a recent chapter in a much longer story. In this episode, host Dan Hummel talks with guest  Daniel K. Williams about his new book, The Search for a Rational Faith: Reason and Belief in the History of American Christianity (Oxford University Press, 2026).Together they trace four centuries of Christian efforts to defend the faith: the English Arminians and William Paley’s natural theology, the “Christian evidences” courses once taught at nearly every American college, the German research university model that displaced them, the experiential apologetics of liberal Protestantism, and the cultural apologetics of C.S. Lewis, Tim Keller, and their heirs. Williams also reflects on how his own upbringing shaped the book, why apologetics has mostly served believers rather than skeptics, and what today’s intra-Christian debates on YouTube have in common with seventeenth-century arguments.IN THIS EPISODEThe five main types of apologetics: evidentialist, classical, presuppositional, worldview, and culturalWhy nineteenth-century Christians thought the evidence for Christianity was as certain as Newtonian scienceHow the German university model, not Darwin alone, ended apologetics in the American curriculumWhy today’s apologists must answer critiques of Christianity’s historical recordHow Catholic and Protestant apologetics have converged in recent decadesABOUT OUR GUESTDaniel K. Williams is a senior fellow at the Ashbrook Center at Ashland University, where he teaches American history. He is the author of several books on American religion and politics, including God’s Own Party: The Making of the Christian Right and The Politics of the Cross: A Christian Alternative to Partisanship. His newest book, The Search for a Rational Faith: Reason and Belief in the History of American Christianity, was published by Oxford University Press in 2026.NAMES AND WORKS MENTIONED• Josh McDowell, Evidence That Demands a Verdict• Lee Strobel, The Case for Christ• C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity and The Chronicles of Narnia• Francis Schaeffer and Cornelius Van Til• N.T. Wright, Gary Habermas, and Michael Licona on the resurrection• Tim Keller and Rebecca McLaughlin (cultural apologetics)• Thomas Aquinas, R.C. Sproul, and William Lane Craig (classical apologetics)• William Paley (natural theology and Christian evidences)• Mark Hopkins (Williams College) and George Frederick Wright (Oberlin College)• Thomas Reid, Immanuel Kant, and David Strauss• Mark Noll on the Bible as "America’s book"• Tom Holland and Christopher Hitchens on Christianity’s legacy• G.K. Chesterton, J.R.R. Tolkien, and Peter Kreeft• Gavin Ortlund, Trent Horn, and Bishop Robert Barron (online apologetics)• John Owen and the Young, Restless, and Reformed movement🔗 LINKS• The Search for a Rational Faith: Reason and Belief in the History of American Christianity (Oxford University Press, 2026) — https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-search-for-a-rational-faith-9780197748039?cc=us&lang=en&Send us Fan MailCONNECT WITH USSubscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave ConourEdited by Dave Conour

As the seasons change, so do our reading lists. Byron Borger, co-owner of Hearts & Minds Bookstore in Dallastown, Pennsylvania, returns to The UpWords Podcast with his fall roundup of the books most worth your time. Host Susan Smetzer-Anderson and Byron begin by remembering Annie Dillard and Wendell Berry, two literary lights whose work shaped generations of Christian readers, before turning to a remarkable season of new releases.Byron makes the case for reading the ancients alongside the moderns, previews John Fea’s new look at whether America was founded as a Christian nation, and compares two of the fall’s most debated books: Kristin Kobes Du Mez’s Live Laugh Love and Bonnie Kristian’s In Defense of Evangelicalism. The conversation then moves into spiritual formation, with new books on God’s love, the humanity of Jesus, the medieval mystics, silence, and character, and closes with titles on cultural myths, womanhood in art, a theology of place, and the role of faith in a pluralistic democracy.IN THIS EPISODERemembering Annie Dillard and Wendell BerryWhy Christians should read ancient literature, and how to read it with discernmentTwo contrasting accounts of evangelical women and evangelical cultureNew books on spiritual formation, from the Trinity to the mystics to the discipline of silenceBooks on cultural narratives, visual culture, sacred place, and religion in public lifeA teaser for anyone who wants to read more but struggles toABOUT OUR GUESTByron Borger and his wife, Beth, opened Hearts & Minds Bookstore in Dallastown, Pennsylvania, in 1982. Byron writes BookNotes, the store’s long-running review newsletter, and is a longtime conference bookseller and speaker on relating Christian faith to every area of life.📙 BOOKS FEATURED IN THIS EPISODECrossing the Wine-Dark Sea by Emily WilsonChristians Reading Classics by Nadya WilliamsFrom Achilles to Christ by Louis MarkosBreaking Bread with the Dead by Alan JacobsIn God We Trust by John FeaLive Laugh Love by Kristin Kobes Du MezIn Defense of Evangelicalism by Bonnie KristianThe Wisdom of Jesus by N. T. WrightFully Beloved by Timothy JonesVulnerable God by Kenneth TannerMake Your Home in This Luminous Dark by James K. A. SmithThe Way of the Spirit by Jeremy SimsInto the Quiet by John Mark ComerWho You’re Becoming by Chuck DeGroatThe Stories We Live By by Timothy Keller and Michael KellerLook Like a Lady by Elissa Yukiko WeichbrodtEvery Somewhere Sacred by Ben Norquist and Brian MillerCan Religion Save Democracy? by Matthew Kaemingk and Shadi Hamid🔗 LINKSHearts & Minds Bookstore: heartsandmindsbooks.comByron’s BookNotes newsletter: heartsandmindsbooks.com/booknotesSend us Fan MailCONNECT WITH USSubscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave ConourEdited by Dave Conour

What does it mean to follow Jesus not only in who you are, but in how you lead, serve, and work? On this episode of The UpWords Podcast, host Joy Fea sits down with guest Joanna Meyer, founder and executive director of Women, Work, & Calling at the Denver Institute for Faith & Work, to explore vocational discipleship: forming people for a whole-life "yes" to God that reaches into their daily work.Joanna traces her path from aspiring high school social studies teacher to twelve years of campus ministry, a season in global telecom, and more than a decade at the Denver Institute, showing how calling is often formed over time rather than discovered in a single moment. Together, Joy and Joanna walk through core ideas from Joanna's framework for vocational discipleship: influence that flows from hearts renewed by Christ; our identity as image-bearers and stewards; participation in God's renewal of all things; and women as agents of flourishing. Along the way, they talk about productivity and overwork, a redemptive understanding of power, generous leadership, and the mentors who help us see what God is inviting us into.WHAT YOU WILL LEARN Why vocation is "a whole-life response to God's voice," not just a category of religious workHow Christ's renewal of "all things" gives new meaning to daily work, from private equity to HOA boardsSetting a generous table for women across theological convictions and life stagesJoanna's candid reflections on overwork and being "addicted to mission"A business leader who built pre-apprenticeship on-ramps for people facing barriers to employmentWhat a redemptive, servant-shaped understanding of power looks like across a workweekBreath prayer and daily silence as portable practices for busy workersWhy God's hand is often clearer in the rearview mirror than in the road aheadABOUT OUR GUESTJoanna Meyer is the founder and executive director of Women, Work, & Calling, a national initiative of the Denver Institute for Faith & Work that equips Christian women to have a godly influence in public life. She also hosts the Institute's Faith & Work Podcast. Before joining the Institute, she worked in global telecom, nonprofit consulting, and campus ministry with Cru. She holds an MA in Social Entrepreneurship from Bakke Graduate University and graduated magna cum laude from the University of Colorado Boulder. She is the author of Women, Work, & Calling: Step into Your Place in God's World (InterVarsity Press, 2023).RESOURCES MENTIONED• Women, Work, & Calling: Step into Your Place in God's World by Joanna Meyer (InterVarsity Press)• Strong and Weak by Andy Crouch• Culture Making by Andy Crouch• The Work of Leaders (Jossey-Bass)• The MBA Oath• Denver Institute for Faith & Work: denverinstitute.org• Women, Work, & Calling: womenworkandcalling.comSend us Fan MailCONNECT WITH USSubscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave ConourEdited by Dave Conour

What does real spiritual transformation actually look like — a powerful moment at a retreat or altar call, or something much slower, deeper, and more relational? In this episode, host Dan Johnson sits down with first-time author Jonathan R. Bailey to talk about his new book, Dwelling in Christ: Discover the Threefold Path of Spiritual Transformation (IVP, 2026). Drawing on years of mentorship from Richard Foster and the legacy of Dallas Willard, Jonathan unpacks the ancient threefold path of Christian spiritual formation — purgation, illumination, and union — and makes the case that transformation can’t be rushed. Dan and Jonathan dig into the difference between transactional and transformational faith, why purgation is pruning rather than punishment, how to build a flexible “rule of life,” and what it means to trade trying for training. Jonathan also shares a personal story of a fleeting taste of union he experienced in a Toys “R” Us parking lot, and offers three simple practices — prayer, fasting, and almsgiving — for anyone who wants to begin the journey toward becoming more like Christ.ABOUT OUR GUESTJonathan R. Bailey is the cofounder of Dwell, an audio Bible app helping people rediscover the ancient practice of listening to Scripture. He writes Three Weekly Lights, a newsletter on spiritual transformation, and serves on the ministry team at Renovaré. He lives in Frisco, Texas, with his wife, Kori, and their three children. Dwelling in Christ is his first book, with a foreword by Richard J. Foster.WHAT YOU WILL LEARNThe real difference between a transactional and a transformational approach to faith — and why relationship, not quick fixes, is what actually drives change.How to tell God’s pruning apart from self-imposed shame or punishment during hard seasons.Why mountaintop spiritual experiences are meant to refresh the journey, not replace the ordinary, sustained faithfulness that follows.How to build a “rule of life” that’s flexible rather than rigid — and why an overly aspirational one can do more harm than good.The practical difference between “trying” to produce spiritual fruit and “training” toward it.What union with God actually looks like in daily life: becoming other-centered instead of self-centered.Three simple, relational practices from the Sermon on the Mount — prayer, fasting, and almsgiving — and how each corresponds to a different relationship: with God, with self, and with others.BOOKS AND LINKS▶ Get the book: https://www.ivpress.com/dwelling-in-christ▶ More about Jonathan: https://www.ivpress.com/jonathan-bailey Send us Fan MailCONNECT WITH USSubscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave ConourEdited by Dave Conour

Many of us are busy serving, producing, and performing — while our own relationship with God quietly grows distant. In this episode, host Tressa Spingler sits down with author and pastor Jacob Coyne to talk about his new book, The Secret Life of Christians: How to Live Authentically, Especially When No One Is Watching (Tyndale House, 2026).Jacob shares the story behind his move from a rapidly growing online ministry on the West Coast to a slower, more hidden life in Johnson City, Tennessee — a decision shaped by a mentor’s warning that ministry built at breakneck speed can cost a family everything. From there, the conversation turns to the ancient spiritual disciplines — prayer, fasting, silence, Sabbath — that have shaped Christians for centuries; to a pilgrimage to Jerusalem that reconnected Jacob to the wider Christian tradition; and to the moment his wife’s honest words pushed him to reset his relationship with his phone.Along the way, Jacob and Tressa talk about what it means to be loved by God before we do anything to earn it — and why the secret place isn’t about hiding. It’s about being known.ABOUT OUR GUESTJacob Coyne is an author, preacher, and founder of Stay Here, a nonprofit suicide-prevention and mental health movement, and the Bible Collective, a network and daily devotional platform serving thousands of readers. His new book is The Secret Life of Christians: How to Live Authentically, Especially When No One Is Watching. Jacob lives in Johnson City, Tennessee, with his wife, Mariah, and their five children.🔗 LINKShttps://www.amazon.com/Secret-Life-Christians-Authentically-Especially/dp/B0FVTY6NW6 https://www.jacob-coyne.com/https://www.stayhere.live/Send us Fan MailCONNECT WITH USSubscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave ConourEdited by Dave Conour

What does it look like to lead the way Jesus did — through the cross, not around it? Host Joy Fea welcomes Rev. Dr. Nicole Massie Martin, President and CEO of Christianity Today, to talk about her book Nailing It: Why Successful Leadership Demands Suffering and Surrender. Together, they explore what people really need from a leader, why perfectionism isn't the same as excellence, how power works for women with and without a title, and why loyalty can quietly become an idol. Nicole also shares what “cruciform leadership” looks like on an ordinary Tuesday, and what she'd tell her twentysomething self about ambition, insecurity, and calling.WHAT YOU WILL LEARNWhy transparency — not just confidence — is what makes a leader trustworthy, and how naming the “turbulence” ahead of time actually builds a team's confidence rather than undermining it.What Nicole's book title actually means: leadership “suffering” isn't suffering for its own sake — it's dying to ego, control, and ambition so that something greater can be resurrected through you.How to recognize when perfectionism, not excellence, is driving your leadership (and your parenting) — and why anything involving other people can never be perfect.The difference between operating with excellence and operating to prove your worth — and why God's approval, not your output, is the more stable foundation.A framework for understanding power beyond your job title: legitimate, expert, informational, referential, and reward power, and how to identify and use whatever power you actually have.How to tell the difference between healthy, Christ-centered loyalty and loyalty that has quietly become an idol — and why toxic leaders are usually surrounded by loyal followers who are afraid to speak up.What women uniquely bring to leadership when they're free to lead from who God made them to be, rather than compensating for who they're told they aren't.What “cruciform leadership” looks like in practice — a daily, repeated act of surrendering your schedule, your meetings, and your outcomes to God rather than white-knuckling your way through them.How Nicole leads a 70-year-old media ministry without becoming captive to its legacy — maintaining Christianity Today's founding mission while letting its expression evolve.Nicole's advice to young leaders on discerning calling: focus on your strengths rather than fixing your weaknesses, and hold your context loosely — your calling is bigger than any one role.ABOUT OUR GUEST Reverend Doctor Nicole Massie Martin was born and educated in Baltimore, Maryland. She graduated magna cum laude from Vanderbilt University with a triple major in Human and Organizational Development, Educational Studies, and French. Dr. Martin received her Master of Divinity from Princeton Theological Seminary and earned a Doctor of Ministry from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary.Dr. Martin is the founder and Executive Director of Soulfire International Ministries, which accelerates thriving for pastors, churches, and younger leaders. She has decades of executive leadership experience in the church and Christian non-profits and is currently serving as the President and Chief Executive Officer of Christianity Today. She is also active in her local congregation, Kingdom Fellowship AME Church, in Maryland.Prior to her role at Christianity Today, Dr. Martin has served in a variety of leadership and executive capacities, including as the Senior Vice President of Ministry Impact at the American Bible Society, as Executive Minister at The Park Church, and Assistant Professor of Ministry and Leadership Development at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in Charlotte, NC.Dr. Martin is a gifted writer and author of numerous articles and three books: Made to Lead: Empowering Women for Ministry, Leaning In, Letting Go: A Lenten Devotional, and Nailing It: Why Successful Leadership Demands Suffering and Surrender.  She serves on the executive council of the National Association of Evangelicals, the Board of Trustees at Fuller Theological Seminary, and on the National Advisory Council for the Salvation Army. She is a founding board member of the Center for Christianity and Public Life and has been inducted into the esteemed Board of Preachers at Morehouse College.Dr. Martin is married to her best friend, Dr. Mark Martin, and they have two amazing daughters, Addison and Josephine.Send us Fan MailCONNECT WITH USSubscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave ConourEdited by Dave Conour