Savage Minds

Christian Parenti discusses the intellectual and political legacy of his father, the Marxist writer Michael Parenti, and the lessons that legacy offers for understanding socialism, imperialism, political power and the contemporary left. He reflects on his father’s anti-imperialist worldview, his defence of actually existing socialism, and his willingness to confront uncomfortable political realities that much of the left preferred to avoid. The conversation examines the contradictions of socialist societies, including the problem of labour discipline and the difficulty of building systems that depend on people being motivated by collective moral commitments rather than material incentives. Parenti considers the collapse of the Soviet Union, drawing on the work of David Kotz and Fred Weir, and discusses the role of elite interests, economic pressures and political transformation. He also addresses the failures of ideological purity and wishful thinking on the contemporary left, including the political lessons of COVID. From there, the discussion turns to human nature, aggression, self-interest and the question of how societies can function when people do not contribute equally. Parenti also explores Cuba’s revolutionary history, its struggle for sovereignty, US pressure, the CIA and the continuing conflict between Washington and Havana. A substantial portion of the conversation examines his father’s views on the Kennedy assassination, the CIA and the divisions this created within the Marxist left, including his disagreement with Noam Chomsky. Throughout, Parenti argues for a political realism grounded in history, material conditions and an honest assessment of power rather than ideological comfort. Get full access to Savage Minds at www.savageminds.co/subscribe

Charles Derber, sociologist and political commentator, joins for a far-reaching discussion on democracy, oligarchy, economic inequality, the erosion of political power, and the emergence of a new generation of “robber barons.” Drawing on his analysis of political history and contemporary capitalism, Derber challenges conventional accounts of democratic development, examining the Magna Carta and the concentration of political authority among elites rather than ordinary citizens. The conversation moves from medieval Britain to the present, exploring how contemporary economic structures have transformed work and weakened the relationships that once allowed exploitation to generate collective resistance. Derber examines the rise of gig work, temporary employment, insecure jobs, and the growing pressures of housing and economic survival, particularly for younger generations. He considers how companies increasingly treat workers as disposable and how this fragmentation of employment can make organised resistance more difficult, even as economic insecurity intensifies. The discussion also explores the relationship between political democracy and concentrated wealth, asking whether formal democratic institutions can provide meaningful power when economic authority remains increasingly concentrated. Derber reflects on the pressures facing young people who recognise that the economy is being reorganised against their interests while simultaneously feeling that their futures depend on succeeding within it. Social media, psychological exhaustion, competition for professional opportunities, and the difficulty of converting widespread frustration into political mobilisation become central to the discussion. Ultimately, the conversation examines whether the pressures created by contemporary capitalism could produce a renewed resistance movement, or whether insecurity and fragmentation will prevent that transformation from occurring. Get full access to Savage Minds at www.savageminds.co/subscribe

Joanna Moncrieff, professor of critical and social psychiatry at University College London, joins for a far-reaching discussion on depression, psychiatric diagnosis, antidepressants, the medical model of mental illness, and the expanding influence of psychiatry in contemporary society. Drawing on decades of clinical practice, research, and critical scholarship, Moncrieff challenges the assumption that mental disorders can be understood simply as underlying biological diseases and examines the evidence behind the widely repeated chemical imbalance theory of depression. The conversation explores the distinction between disease-centred and drug-centred approaches to psychiatric medication, the effectiveness and limitations of antidepressants, withdrawal, and the ways pharmaceutical interests have influenced psychiatric research and treatment. Moncrieff also considers the historical development of psychiatric interventions and the broader question of what happens when ordinary human experiences such as grief, distress, and social suffering become increasingly medicalised. The discussion moves beyond medication into questions of power, social control, and the changing boundaries of normality, drawing on Michel Foucault’s concept of biopower and examining why psychiatric diagnoses have become increasingly prominent in public life. Vigo and Moncrieff also discuss ADHD, autism, psychedelic-assisted therapy, and the political and cultural implications of expanding psychiatric categories. Throughout, the conversation asks whether psychiatry should be understood primarily as a branch of medicine or as a discipline shaped by social values, institutional power, and contested ideas about human behaviour. The episode offers a sustained examination of what psychiatric diagnosis means, what psychiatric drugs actually do, and how mental distress might be understood beyond the conventional medical framework. Get full access to Savage Minds at www.savageminds.co/subscribe

Roger Hallam, co-founder of Extinction Rebellion, Just Stop Oil, and Insulate Britain, joins Julian Vigo on Savage Minds for a far-reaching discussion on climate breakdown, civil resistance, revolutionary politics, and the future of democratic society. Drawing on decades of activism, academic research, and firsthand experience as an organic farmer whose livelihood was devastated by extreme weather, Hallam argues that the climate crisis is inseparable from the structural failures of contemporary capitalism and that Western societies have entered a pre-revolutionary period. Julian Vigo challenges Hallam on the effectiveness of disruptive protest, the criminalisation of climate activism, the changing nature of the political left, and the contradictions exposed during the COVID-19 era regarding civil liberties, state power, and public participation. Their conversation moves beyond environmental policy into broader philosophical questions concerning historical revolutions, the psychology of mass mobilisation, the role of spirituality and meaning in political action, and whether existing democratic institutions are capable of responding to accelerating ecological collapse. Together, Vigo and Hallam examine why climate activism increasingly intersects with debates over freedom, political legitimacy, cultural identity, and social transformation, while reflecting on the tensions between reform and revolution, institutional politics and grassroots movements, and materialist analysis versus moral conviction. This episode offers an unflinching exploration of one of the defining political and ecological debates of the twenty-first century through an extended dialogue that challenges assumptions across the ideological spectrum. Get full access to Savage Minds at www.savageminds.co/subscribe

Robert Pape, professor of political science at the University of Chicago and founding director of the Chicago Project on Security and Threats, examines why modern military superiority so often fails to produce lasting political success. Drawing on decades of research into coercive air power, he argues that precision-guided warfare has fundamentally reshaped public expectations by creating the illusion that wars can be won quickly, cheaply, and with few casualties. Revisiting the lessons of Vietnam and the arguments developed in his landmark book Bombing to Win, Pape explains why tactical achievements frequently strengthen an adversary’s political resolve instead of compelling surrender. The conversation explores his concept of the “escalation trap,” in which battlefield successes steadily weaken a state’s broader strategic position by deepening political resistance and encouraging further military escalation. Applying this framework to the recent confrontation with Iran, Pape analyzes the strategic significance of the Strait of Hormuz, the limitations of coercive diplomacy, shifting regional power dynamics, and Washington’s declining credibility in the Middle East. He argues that effective strategy depends not on the destructive power of modern weapons but on understanding how military action interacts with political objectives, public opinion, and national resolve. Rather than viewing conflict through the lens of technological superiority alone, Pape contends that contemporary wars are ultimately decided by political outcomes, making strategic judgment far more important than tactical victories. The discussion offers a timely assessment of air power, deterrence, escalation, and the changing character of warfare in an increasingly unstable international system. Get full access to Savage Minds at www.savageminds.co/subscribe

Political analyst Trita Parsi examines the deep contradictions at the heart of contemporary US foreign policy, tracing the consequences of decades of military intervention from Iraq and Syria to Iran. The discussion explores how the US invasion of Iraq helped create the conditions for the rise of ISIS, the rapid normalisation of Syria's new leadership despite its origins in Al-Qaeda-linked movements, and the broader erosion of public trust in mainstream media coverage of global conflicts. Parsi argues that sanctions on countries such as Iran and Syria overwhelmingly punish civilian populations while failing to achieve their stated political objectives. He also analyses the influence of the military-industrial complex on Washington's decision-making, explaining how economic and political incentives perpetuate a cycle of intervention even as public support for endless wars declines. The conversation turns to Iran, where Parsi challenges widely circulated narratives about protests, political unrest and regime change, arguing that foreign interference and media distortions have often obscured a more complex reality. Throughout the interview, broader questions emerge about empire, propaganda, media credibility and the limits of military power in shaping political outcomes. The result is a wide-ranging examination of how interventionist policies have reshaped the Middle East, why many official narratives are increasingly being questioned and what a more restrained and realistic approach to international relations might look like in an era marked by geopolitical instability and declining confidence in traditional institutions. Get full access to Savage Minds at www.savageminds.co/subscribe

Robin Andersen, professor emerita of media studies at Fordham University, examines how US media coverage of Gaza functions less as journalism than as a system of narrative management, transforming military violence into a language of self-defence while obscuring the historical realities of occupation, blockade, and dispossession. Drawing on her recent book The Complicit Lens (2026), Andersen argues that mainstream outlets relied heavily on Israeli military claims, anonymous intelligence sources, and reporting conventions that concealed agency and normalised civilian suffering. Rather than treating these distortions as isolated failures, she situates them within a broader history of wartime propaganda, comparing contemporary Gaza coverage to the media’s role in legitimising the Iraq War and advancing narratives during the War on Terror. The discussion explores how concentrated media ownership, corporate interests, and institutional dependence on official sources shape the limits of acceptable discourse, narrowing the range of perspectives available to the public during periods of conflict. Andersen argues that journalists who challenge dominant narratives often face marginalisation, while eyewitness accounts, humanitarian testimony, and independent reporting are subordinated to the claims of political and military authorities. The result, she contends, is a media environment that privileges power over accountability and framing over factual complexity. At the centre of the conversation is a critique of how language, sourcing, and editorial priorities influence public understanding of war, revealing the extent to which modern news institutions can become active participants in manufacturing consent rather than independent watchdogs holding power to account. Get full access to Savage Minds at www.savageminds.co/subscribe

Alex Byrne, Lawrence S. Rockefeller Professor of Philosophy at MIT and author of Trouble with Gender: Sex Facts, Gender Fictions (2023), argues in this conversation that the contemporary backlash against the biological definition of “woman” stems from two distinct and often conflicting intellectual currents: a longstanding feminist suspicion of biological essentialism, and a newer push, largely from trans activism, to redefine sex itself as socially constructed or non-binary. Byrne traces how this confusion has hardened into orthodoxy across academia and medicine, making dissent professionally dangerous even for scholars working from well-established science. The conversation examines the toll this has taken: researchers no-platformed, careers destroyed, and a climate in which even raising basic biological facts can trigger threats and reputational ruin. Byrne discusses MIT’s Civil Discourse Project, which he co-leads, as evidence that controversial topics can still be debated productively when expectations are set honestly and both sides are willing to show up. He reflects on the reluctance of gender-affirming care’s strongest proponents to defend their position in open debate, and on the growing body of evidence against pediatric medical transition. Asked whether a “truth and reconciliation” reckoning is possible, Byrne is doubtful that public admissions of error will come, but sees hope in quieter institutional change: medical bodies revising guidance, universities loosening restrictions on academic freedom, and the slow erosion of a consensus he believes is no longer defensible. Get full access to Savage Minds at www.savageminds.co/subscribe

Elena Poniatowska, Mexico’s most celebrated journalist and one of the most significant literary voices in the Spanish-speaking world, argues in this conversation that the crisis of contemporary journalism is inseparable from the collapse of critical reading—and that both are symptoms of a deeper cultural abandonment. Born in Paris in 1932 to a French-Polish father and Mexican mother, Poniatowska contends that her formation as a writer was shaped by displacement, by learning to listen to those rendered voiceless by history, and by understanding that journalism must be an act of solidarity before it is anything else. Widely credited with helping to establish the genre of testimonio in Latin American letters, she transformed the voices of the marginalised into literature that forced an entire nation to confront its own silence. She maintains that her landmark work La Noche de Tlatelolco was not a journalistic achievement but a moral obligation, and reflects on her decision to refuse the Xavier Villaurrutia Prize, asking who would award the dead. Poniatowska insists that the greatest threat to literature and journalism today is not artificial intelligence but the disappearance of patience—the willingness to sit with a text, a story, or a life long enough for meaning to emerge. At 94, she affirms her belief in the innate goodness of human beings as not a sentiment but a necessity.Elena Poniatowska, la periodista más célebre de México y una de las voces literarias más significativas del mundo hispanohablante, sostiene en esta conversación que la crisis del periodismo contemporáneo es inseparable del colapso de la lectura crítica—y que ambos son síntomas de un abandono cultural más profundo. Nacida en París en 1932 de padre franco-polaco y madre mexicana, Poniatowska afirma que su formación como escritora estuvo marcada por el desplazamiento, por aprender a escuchar a quienes la historia había silenciado, y por comprender que el periodismo debe ser ante todo un acto de solidaridad. Ampliamente reconocida por haber contribuido a establecer el género del testimonio en las letras latinoamericanas, transformó las voces de los marginados en literatura que obligó a una nación entera a confrontar su propio silencio. Sostiene que su obra emblemática La Noche de Tlatelolco no fue un logro periodístico sino una obligación moral, y reflexiona sobre su decisión de rechazar el Premio Xavier Villaurrutia, preguntando quién iba a premiar a los muertos. Poniatowska insiste en que la mayor amenaza para la literatura y el periodismo hoy no es la inteligencia artificial sino la desaparición de la paciencia—la disposición a permanecer con un texto, una historia o una vida el tiempo suficiente para que emerja el significado. A los 94 años, reafirma su creencia en la bondad innata de los seres humanos no como un sentimiento sino como una necesidad.English transcript:SAVAGE MINDS — Elena PoniatowskaJulian Vigo (00:00:15):Welcome to Savage Minds.Julian Vigo (00:00:26):I am your host, Julian Vigo.Julian Vigo (00:00:30):Today’s guest is Elena Poniatowska Amor,Julian Vigo (00:00:33):daughter of a French father of Polish origin, Jean E.Julian Vigo (00:00:37):Poniatowski, and Mexican mother Paula Amor.Julian Vigo (00:00:41):She was born in Paris in 1932.Julian Vigo (00:00:46):She has practiced journalism since 1953 at the newspapers El Día, Excélsior, Novedades, and La Jornada.Julian Vigo (00:00:57):She is the first woman to receive the National Journalism Prize.Julian Vigo (00:01:02):Among her works is La Noche de Tlatelolco,Julian Vigo (00:01:05):a classic since its publication, for which she was awarded the Xavier Villaurrutia Prize,Julian Vigo (00:01:12):which she refused, asking who was going to award the dead.Julian Vigo (00:01:17):Her novels and stories include La Flor de Lis,Julian Vigo (00:01:20):De Noche Vienes and Tlapalería,Julian Vigo (00:01:24):Paseo de la Reforma,Julian Vigo (00:01:26):Hasta No Verte Jesús Mío,Julian Vigo (00:01:28):The Life of a Mexican Soldadera,Julian Vigo (00:01:31):Querido Diego Te Abraza Quiela, Tinísima, winner of the Mazatlán Prize in 1992, La Piel del Cielo,Julian Vigo (00:01:40):winner of the Alfaguara Novel Prize in 2001, and El Tren Pasa Primero,Julian Vigo (00:01:48):about the lives of Mexican railway workers,Julian Vigo (00:01:52):winner of the Rómulo Gallegos International Novel Prize in 2007. Leonora won the Premio Biblioteca Breve Seix Barral in 2011. El Universo o Nada (2013) is the biography ofJulian Vigo (00:02:07):astrophysicist Guillermo Haro. Ondas de la Niña Mala is her first poetry collection, andJulian Vigo (00:02:14):her children’s books include Boda en Chimalistac, La Vendedora de Nubes,Julian Vigo (00:02:20):El Burro que Metió la Pata, Sansimonsi, illustrated by Rafael Barajas el Fisgón, and ElJulian Vigo (00:02:27):Niño Estrellero by Fernando Robles, and El Charito Cantor by Osvaldo Hernández.Julian Vigo (00:02:34):Her most recent novel, El Amante Polaco, portrays the last king of Poland, Stanisław AugustJulian Vigo (00:02:41):Poniatowski. Translated into 20 languages. Gabi Brimmer and Las Mil y Una, the story ofJulian Vigo (00:02:48):Paulina,Julian Vigo (00:02:49):address social issues.Julian Vigo (00:02:52):After receiving honorary doctorates from UNAM and UAM,Julian Vigo (00:02:57):she was awarded them from the University of Puebla,Julian Vigo (00:03:01):Sonora, Estado de México,Julian Vigo (00:03:04):Guerrero,Julian Vigo (00:03:06):Chiapas, and Puerto Rico.Julian Vigo (00:03:09):She also received honorary degrees from the New School for Social Research in New York,Julian Vigo (00:03:13):Manhattanville College, and Florida Atlantic University in the United States, and fromJulian Vigo (00:03:19):Paris 8,Julian Vigo (00:03:19):La Sorbonne, and Pau-Pyrénées, as well as the Maria Moors Cabot Prize for Journalism atJulian Vigo (00:03:27):Columbia University, New York, in 2004, and from the Universidad Complutense, Madrid, inJulian Vigo (00:03:32):2015.Julian Vigo (00:03:34):She received the French Legion of Honour at the rank of Officer, the Gabriela Mistral Prize from Chile, and inJulian Vigo (00:03:41):2006, the Courage Award from the International Women’s Media Foundation.Julian Vigo (00:03:43):In 2013 she was awardedJulian Vigo (00:03:49):the Miguel de Cervantes Prize for literature in the Spanish language, and she received theJulian Vigo (00:03:55):Belisario Domínguez Medal in 2022.Julian Vigo (00:03:58):This is the highest honour granted by the Senate of the Mexican Republic, along with theJulian Vigo (00:04:05):Carlos Fuentes International Prize for Literary Creation in the Spanish Language in 2023.(00:04:12):I welcome Elena Poniatowska to Savage Minds.Julian Vigo (00:04:19):I wanted to begin with a memory I have of you.Julian Vigo (00:04:22):In 1993,Julian Vigo (00:04:25):I think,Julian Vigo (00:04:27):or 94 —Julian Vigo (00:04:28):one of those two years —Julian Vigo (00:04:29):I was in Puebla,Julian Vigo (00:04:31):Cholula,Julian Vigo (00:04:32):teaching at the Universidad de las Américas.Julian Vigo (00:04:35):Yes.Julian Vigo (00:04:36):And you came to give a talk at an observatory — I believe it was Tonantzintla.Elena Poniatowska (00:04:44):Yes, of course.Elena Poniatowska (00:04:46):Yes, I remember it, andJulian Vigo (00:04:49):you made a great impression on me that day. But I must confess that your entire life’s work made a great impression on me — not only on me. I wanted to begin with your formation, your life, because you were born in France andJulian Vigo (00:05:12):how do you remember your childhood in France, and what elements of that world did you bring with you when you arrived in Mexico in 1942?Elena Poniatowska (00:05:21):Well, thank you very much for your interest.Elena Poniatowska (00:05:29):I can tell you that I was born in 1932 in Paris, France, because my mother Paula Amor marriedElena Poniatowska (00:05:42):Juan Poniatowski, who held a noble title — that of prince —Elena Poniatowska (00:05:54):because the last king of Poland was Stanisław Poniatowski, who was, I believe, one ofElena Poniatowska (00:06:07):the lovers —Elena Poniatowska (00:06:09):one of the younger lovers of the Empress of Russia, Catherine the Great.Elena Poniatowska (00:06:21):My mother was a woman born also in Paris, of Mexican origin, who leftElena Poniatowska (00:06:32):France because of the Mexican RevolutionElena Poniatowska (00:06:36):and went to live with her parents — Pablo Amor and Elena Iturbe de Amor — inElena Poniatowska (00:06:49):Biarritz, and they later moved to Paris. My mother always spoke Spanish with a French accent. She had two sisters who also lived in France for a long time,Elena Poniatowska (00:07:07):and they were rather Frenchified. She met my father Jean Poniatowski in Paris andElena Poniatowska (00:07:20):married him, and I was born in 1932 in Paris.Elena Poniatowska (00:07:25):I would like to knowJulian Vigo (00:07:31):more about this experience, because as you probably know — especially Americans and Canadians — they think everyone wants to come to their countries. But something they don’t know until they travel is that in Mexico, Honduras, and all of Latin America there is a great deal of immigration, people from every country in the world. Why not?Elena Poniatowska (00:08:01):Her mother was in France; my mother was Mexican, born in France. Her family — she had a grandmother, my mother’s great-grandmother, who was Russian, and in general her father was educated in England, so they wereElena Poniatowska (00:08:29):Mexicans — Amor is a Mexican surname — but they were very closely tied to Europe. For my mother, living in Europe was very natural becauseElena Poniatowska (00:08:49):she first attended a boarding school in Switzerland, in Lausanne,Elena Poniatowska (00:08:56):and then was in Paris. At a Rothschild ball she met my father JuanElena Poniatowska (00:09:07):Poniatowski and married him in 1931,Elena Poniatowska (00:09:17):or perhaps at the beginning of 1932, because I was born on the 19th of May 1932.Elena Poniatowska (00:09:29):My sister was born in 1933.Julian Vigo (00:09:34):As a child who spoke French and had to learn Spanish, in what way did language become your first tool for survival?Elena Poniatowska (00:09:47):Well, I also know English and French. Language, for me — learning Spanish in Mexico — was obviously about communicating with people in the streetElena Poniatowska (00:09:56):and with friends at school. But French remained my mother tongue, andElena Poniatowska (00:10:03):later I dedicated myself to speaking Spanish with the people at home, with the MexicansElena Poniatowska (00:10:14):I met at school.Elena Poniatowska (00:10:23):Curiously, I attended an English school called the Windsor School, but I learned SpanishJulian Vigo (00:10:38):in the street — one always learns Spanish better in the street. You learn so much from people in Mexico. I found people very warm and open. On the other hand, for Mexicans in my country, it’s not the same at all.Julian Vigo (00:10:59):What was the first moment you felt that writing was the only possible way to understand the Mexico around you?Elena Poniatowska (00:11:11):Well, I would never say it was the only possible way.Elena Poniatowska (00:11:17):I think that at twenty,Elena Poniatowska (00:11:22):twenty-one years old, returning from studying at a convent of nuns, I had theElena Poniatowska (00:11:30):good fortune to be able to start writing at a newspaper called, at that time,Elena Poniatowska (00:11:42):Excelsior.Elena Poniatowska (00:11:43):They asked me to submit a daily article,Elena Poniatowska (00:11:48):an interview,Elena Poniatowska (00:11:51):a chronicle, and I did so with enormous enthusiasm and great pleasure, because it allowed meElena Poniatowska (00:12:00):to know Mexico much better, and also to meet great figures of Mexico such asElena Poniatowska (00:12:09):Diego Rivera,Elena Poniatowska (00:12:11):José Clemente Orozco, actresses like Dolores del Río and María Félix, architects likeElena Poniatowska (00:12:20):Luis Barragán, and writers — even writers of my own generation, or slightlyElena Poniatowska (00:12:31):older than me — such as Juan Rulfo,Elena Poniatowska (00:12:38):Rosario Castellanos, Carlos Fuentes, and of course Octavio Paz.Julian Vigo (00:12:46):What a rich life! María Félix — what a figure!Julian Vigo (00:12:52):How was your experience beginning in journalism in the early 1950s in a predominantly male environment?Elena Poniatowska (00:13:05):Well, I was truly very lucky, because people were very kind andElena Poniatowska (00:13:14):even affectionate towards me. No one ever refused me an interview. I was able to reach Alfonso Reyes, Octavio Paz,Elena Poniatowska (00:13:25):the great architect Luis Barragán, José Vasconcelos the philosopher, and all were veryElena Poniatowska (00:13:40):kind and cordial with me, as were important actors like Ignacio LópezElena Poniatowska (00:13:51):Tarso,Elena Poniatowska (00:13:52):and of course those I already mentioned — Dolores del Río, María Félix — and singers, and also many visitors who came from Europe, the United States, or Latin America to perform in Mexico.Elena Poniatowska (00:14:20):Did you know El Indio Fernández?Elena Poniatowska (00:14:23):Yes,Elena Poniatowska (00:14:24):of course —Elena Poniatowska (00:14:25):I interviewed him,Elena Poniatowska (00:14:26):I knew El Indio Fernández, who by ten in the morning was already offering me a tequila, whichElena Poniatowska (00:14:35):I did not drink, as I’m not accustomed to drinking. And also many otherElena Poniatowska (00:14:47):famous actors of that era, like the comedian Cantinflas, whoseJulian Vigo (00:14:56):real name was Mario Moreno. Cantinflas — I know his work. Wow. And you were in Mexico during the same period as Luis Buñuel?Elena Poniatowska (00:15:06):Yes, I ended up with Luis Buñuel — yes, we had a great friendshipElena Poniatowska (00:15:15):because out of affection he came to have lunch at my house several times, so I saw him on manyElena Poniatowska (00:15:24):occasions. We even went together to the prison of Lecumberri to visit, for example, aElena Poniatowska (00:15:33):Colombian who had committed an offence and was imprisoned — his name wasElena Poniatowska (00:15:42):Álvaro Mutis.Julian Vigo (00:15:45):And you have lived through and narrated great social transformations.Julian Vigo (00:15:51):Do you think that today’s digital democratisation of public opinion helps social justice, or does it rather dilute real struggles into mere narratives of identity and likes?Elena Poniatowska (00:16:08):Well, I think the Mexican Revolution,Elena Poniatowska (00:16:15):led by a man like Emiliano Zapata, was extraordinary in redistributing the lands and haciendas of Mexico and in giving all MexicansElena Poniatowska (00:16:32):access to better education, better formation, a better life. I consider thatElena Poniatowska (00:16:46):Emiliano Zapata was one of the great heroes of Mexico, even though he personally took away the haciendas of my grandparents, the Amors and the Iturbes.Julian Vigo (00:17:06):What did you learn from the great intellectuals of your youth?Julian Vigo (00:17:08):You mentioned Juan Rulfo, Alfonso Reyes, and many others.Julian Vigo (00:17:15):What influenced your decision to dedicate your life to letters?Elena Poniatowska (00:17:20):No, they did not influence my decision to dedicate myself to letters.Elena Poniatowska (00:17:26):I met them later.Elena Poniatowska (00:17:30):I began as a journalist, a modest journalist, at the newspaper Excelsior in 1953 —Elena Poniatowska (00:17:42):I think 1952 or 1953. Very young. I had come from an education at a convent of nuns inElena Poniatowska (00:17:53):Philadelphia, and I decidedElena Poniatowska (00:17:57):to write chronicles and interviews to get to know Mexico better. I came to know those figures through my work as a journalist, and because I could question themElena Poniatowska (00:18:14):in the language I knew and had learned as a child — at ten years old — which is Spanish. My other languages until then had beenElena Poniatowska (00:18:22):English,Elena Poniatowska (00:18:27):and French, which is my mother tongue.Julian Vigo (00:18:32):You are known for the testimonio.Julian Vigo (00:18:36):At what exact point did you feel that traditional fiction was not sufficient to capture Mexican reality?Elena Poniatowska (00:18:47):As I mentioned, I began by engaging with many valuable MexicansElena Poniatowska (00:18:54):who received me in their homes, gave me their opinions. At the same time as I received what they wished to give me,Elena Poniatowska (00:19:04):I observed how their homes were, how they treated the people around them — their wives, their children, their servants — and all of that helped meElena Poniatowska (00:19:22):to know Mexico better. I also spent a great deal of time in the streets — that is, with the poorest people, whom I was able to reachElena Poniatowska (00:19:34):through my own nature and also with the help of a great Mexican illustrator, Alberto Beltrán. In the street he made sketches of everything the Mexicans did — the newspaper vendors,Elena Poniatowska (00:19:59):the taco sellers,Elena Poniatowska (00:20:03):the women making corn tortillas by hand,Elena Poniatowska (00:20:12):the bakeries, and then the hardware stores where everything was sold — from nails toElena Poniatowska (00:20:22):cleaning cloths — and all of that was a very vital andElena Poniatowska (00:20:32):generous apprenticeship in learning to see the lives of working Mexicans.Julian Vigo (00:20:40):But it is an art — to be able to listen to people, to their voices.Julian Vigo (00:20:53):How did you learn to listen to the voice of the other?Elena Poniatowska (00:20:58):Well, I think it is a natural inclination.Elena Poniatowska (00:21:03):It is not learned.Elena Poniatowska (00:21:05):It is not forced.Elena Poniatowska (00:21:06):It is a way of being.Elena Poniatowska (00:21:10):I am far more interestedElena Poniatowska (00:21:11):in speaking of what others do, how they do it, and who they are, than in speaking of myself, my sensations, my emotions. And I have done this from a very young age, so it has become a habit — it is part of my daily life.Julian Vigo (00:21:36):Do you believe that the testimonio is essentially an act of political resistance?Elena Poniatowska (00:21:44):I think so.Elena Poniatowska (00:21:45):It helps enormously to know the thinking of those who have no power, who are not in power, who do not consider themselves political, who are not leaders — although I did have the great privilege of interviewing leaders and very important figures in Mexico,Elena Poniatowska (00:22:14):such as, for example, the Spanish refugee of the Civil War, Luis Buñuel.Julian Vigo (00:22:26):And how was the process of gathering the voice of Jesusa Palancares?Julian Vigo (00:22:32):How long did it take you to absorb her story?Elena Poniatowska (00:22:38):Well, it was a privilege. I heard her — she was doing laundry in a popular building, a building where many Mexicans lived who had noElena Poniatowska (00:22:56):economic resources. Everything she said caught my attention enormously. I approached her and asked if I could visit her at her home,Elena Poniatowska (00:23:13):which was a very poor house, obviously far from the area where I lived. And so I went toElena Poniatowska (00:23:26):see her once a week. We became friends, and she began telling me her life. And that is howElena Poniatowska (00:23:36):the novel Hasta No Verte Jesús Mío came about. When it was published,Elena Poniatowska (00:23:43):she asked me to give her ten copies to give to her friends —Elena Poniatowska (00:23:52):the bricklayers or the people she had worked with.Julian Vigo (00:24:00):And why did she choose the testimonial genre for Hasta No Verte Jesús Mío?Julian Vigo (00:24:09):It is one of the testimonial novels because —Elena Poniatowska (00:24:16):She didn’t really choose it — she didn’t. It was I who gathered her words andElena Poniatowska (00:24:27):assembled them in the best way I could. But she did not choose it.Elena Poniatowska (00:24:34):She could not read or write. She did not know how to read or write. But she asked for the books, and I — the cover of the book, what goes on the outside, is the Santo Niño de Atocha, a small Christ child that she liked.Julian Vigo (00:25:08):And I saw it in the street, and so I put it there so she would be happy. But I was asking you about the testimonial genre — in 1969 it was not a common thing in literature.Julian Vigo (00:25:26):How was this novel received?Julian Vigo (00:25:30):I wonder if people were confused.Julian Vigo (00:25:32):Is it a true story or is it fiction?Elena Poniatowska (00:25:35):No, it was very well received. The book was greatly liked.Elena Poniatowska (00:25:41):Immediately many editions came out and it was translated into English and French.Julian Vigo (00:25:51):And I wonder if at that time — less so today — people were confused because they did not know if it was a completely real story or partly real. Because the novel Hasta No Verte Jesús Mío was categorised as a novel.Elena Poniatowska (00:26:16):Yes, that’s right, that is what it was.Elena Poniatowska (00:26:19):It is a novel based on a character — a woman who was in the Mexican Revolution, the life of a soldadera. To what extent is Jesusa an invented character or a real woman? I have said it, I have written it many times: Jesusa is a real character. After that I wroteElena Poniatowska (00:26:49):other books about other women who were also real characters. I had the joy of knowing Jesusa in person, but for example Tina Modotti, the main character ofElena Poniatowska (00:27:08):the novel Tinísima, I did not know. And other novels about other women and other characters I also did not know.Julian Vigo (00:27:22):What lessons about the resilience of Mexican women did you learn from Jesusa that remain relevant today?Elena Poniatowska (00:27:31):All the women in Mexico whom I see and engage with and encounter in the streetElena Poniatowska (00:27:41):and who come to my house — they are women who have known how to struggle and continue to struggle. For example, one woman, Rosario Ibarra de Piedra, whose son was disappeared, and who searched all of Mexico — she is obviously one of the heroines who has most caught my attention.Julian Vigo (00:28:10):And especially in recent years — almost thirty years — the femicides and the disappearances of men and women. You are still fighting for your society, and I think literary words have the power to carry reality forward. I am thinking of La Noche de Tlatelolco — that was the first book of yours I read. It is incredible. I have no words. Thank you. It is one of the best books of the twentieth century, and I teach it. It is astonishing. Can you speak about why you began that work, and also for those listening now who do not know the history of what happened in Mexico?Elena Poniatowska (00:29:03):Well, in general I can tell you that I received letters from a prisoner in the jail — Jesús Sánchez García — and I began going to Lecumberri, which was called the Black Palace of Lecumberri. It was no palace — it was a prison with bars and cells. I asked permission from the prison director — I believe his name was Martín del Campo — and he gave it to me. That is how I went to gather life stories from men, and later, at the women’s prison, from women who had nothing to do with my own life, who bore no resemblance to what I hadElena Poniatowska (00:30:03):lived or what I would go on to live.Elena Poniatowska (00:30:16):That was an enormous enrichment for me, and a knowledge of an unknown Mexico that also helped me understand MexicoElena Poniatowska (00:30:31):— a Mexico to which I owe a great deal.Elena Poniatowska (00:30:35):I think that everything I am I owe to the voice, and to the gift of their voice, that the poorest Mexicans gave me — those I was able to approach over years and years,Elena Poniatowska (00:30:52):going to the prison and sometimes going to their own very poor homes, called vecindades, which were located in the very neighbourhoods where the prisons were.Julian Vigo (00:31:11):How did you manage the pain and trauma of the testimonies you heard while assembling the book?Elena Poniatowska (00:31:22):Pain is not managed. To manage something is to seek something. Pain is simply assumed and lived. So the pain is in the words written in the book.Julian Vigo (00:31:46):And why did you choose the technique of a collage of voices rather than a linear, chronological narrative for this book?Elena Poniatowska (00:31:57):I have many other books that speak even of personal stories — books that contain much of biography.Julian Vigo (00:32:13):Yes, but it is very interesting how you wove those narratives together in this book. It is very beautiful, in fact.Julian Vigo (00:32:24):Was there any moment during the writing of La Noche de Tlatelolco when you felt fear or censorship?Elena Poniatowska (00:32:33):Well, there was always the dread of entering terrain unknown to me.Elena Poniatowska (00:32:40):Ultimately, I was educated —Elena Poniatowska (00:32:45):I spent time in the United States at a convent to be educated, not to become a nun — it was called the Sacred Heart Convent.Elena Poniatowska (00:33:03):When I came out I was speaking English. My mother tongue is French. And when I left there, my strongest desire was truly to know Mexico — the country I had arrived in at the age of ten, but in which I had received an educationElena Poniatowska (00:33:30):in both English and French, not in Spanish.Julian Vigo (00:33:36):More than fifty years later, what impact do you think that book has on the collective memory of young Mexicans today?Elena Poniatowska (00:33:48):Well, I think that is a question that should be put to them.Elena Poniatowska (00:33:55):What I can say is that I have receivedElena Poniatowska (00:33:59):a great deal of affection from young people — many come to find me at my home, and I give lectures and talks with some frequency. Remember that I am already 94 years old and have lost the use of my left eye, which prevents me from seeing well. So within my limitations,Elena Poniatowska (00:34:27):I remain in contact with the people who want to see me, which for me produces great enthusiasm and which I experience as great support.Julian Vigo (00:34:42):The book you wrote is something very specific — evidently about Mexico — but it is still a book with which everyone can identify. If we look around today, where there are acts of political repression in almost every country in the world in one form or another — and I know your books are translated into many languages — I wonder whether the power of La Noche de Tlatelolco came from the form of the narration itself, not only from the fact that you confronted the government, the police, and justice. You narrated a story of the people seeking justice, yes, but literature itself was also seeking truth within its pages. There are wars everywhere, there is too much sadness. After the lockdown — which was less bad in Mexico than here in Italy — we are living through a very difficult moment. Do you sometimes think of this book as a model for dialogue, for collaboration, for moving forward together, the people united?Elena Poniatowska (00:36:09):Well, what I love about this book is that it has so many voices — many voices gathered from mothers of families, from children of political prisoners. For me it was a great learning experience to go to the prison in Mexico and see a world I did not know, to be accepted in that world, to go frequently to hear and gather the voices of political prisoners and of young people whoElena Poniatowska (00:36:52):didn’t even have strong political ideas but were imprisoned because they had stolen something in a market. It meant entering a world I was completely unfamiliar with,Elena Poniatowska (00:37:13):to which I did not belong. And it was an enormous lesson — a very generous lesson — in how the lives of others can be. That is what I have dedicated myself to over many years, because I remain a journalist and continue writing about disasters such asElena Poniatowska (00:37:39):not only the massacre of the 2nd of October, but what the earthquake of 1985 meant for Mexico and the loss, for many Mexicans, of their families and their homes.Julian Vigo (00:37:59):Yes. You documented the earthquake of ‘85 — a moment when the Mexican government was completely paralysed and it was civil society that took control to rescue the city.Julian Vigo (00:38:15):Do you believe that peoples are still alone in the face of tragedy, or is that organic solidarity you described an invincible force?Elena Poniatowska (00:38:29):Yes,Elena Poniatowska (00:38:29):of course.Elena Poniatowska (00:38:30):I believe — that is why I believe in the invincible force of Mexicans, who help and support each other, who run to answer a cry for help. They are the ones who save themselves by saving others. I believe in that truth. It is a truth I lived, that I witnessed,Elena Poniatowska (00:38:57):and for me it is a lesson, a way of life.Julian Vigo (00:39:03):Does it reflect the structural abandonment of the seamstresses, the inhabitants, those who live in vecindades, and the poorest?Julian Vigo (00:39:13):How did you manage, in the midst of the chaos, the dust, and the mourning of those days, to earn the trust of people so that they would share their most painful and raw testimonies?Elena Poniatowska (00:39:30):Well, I have two physical advantages.Elena Poniatowska (00:39:32):I am small in stature. I frighten no one. No one is afraid of me. I can go anywhere. I am not someone who imposes anything at all, and I know how to listen. So by listening to others’ voices, I gather them, I keep them, I memorise them,Elena Poniatowska (00:40:03):and then I put them on paper.Elena Poniatowska (00:40:06):That is the most solitary and difficult moment — writing about what happens to others,Elena Poniatowska (00:40:21):their sorrows,Elena Poniatowska (00:40:22):their joys,Elena Poniatowska (00:40:24):their defeats and also their triumphs —Elena Poniatowska (00:40:28):and making books and articles from them. Because I am also a journalist sinceElena Poniatowska (00:40:38):1953. I am now 94 years old.Julian Vigo (00:40:47):You’re listening to Savage Minds.Julian Vigo (00:40:49):If you’re enjoying the show, take a second to subscribe at savageminds.co.Julian Vigo (00:40:54):Feel free to comment below or drop us a line to share your thoughts.Julian Vigo (00:40:59):Support independent media today.Julian Vigo (00:41:01):Now, let’s get back to it.Julian Vigo (00:41:15):Many consider that the earthquake of ‘85 not only brought down buildings but also toppled the myth of the Mexican State’s absolute control — marking the true birth of modern citizenship in the country.Julian Vigo (00:41:33):From your perspective as a chronicler —Elena Poniatowska (00:41:40):I think Mexicans have always had enormous character and enormous capacity to defend themselvesElena Poniatowska (00:41:49):in spite of their own poverty, or in spite of the total absence of outside help.Elena Poniatowska (00:42:02):There was in Mexico a Mexican Revolution,Elena Poniatowska (00:42:08):a country conquered by very cruel conquerors, and yet the country has continued to forge ahead and has continued to demonstrate its bravery and courage in allElena Poniatowska (00:42:28):circumstances — one of which was, for example, the earthquake, in which the neighbours themselvesElena Poniatowska (00:42:37):helped each other before the State or the so-called government did anything.Elena Poniatowska (00:42:46):So I think it is a country with many very brave men, women, and children who save themselves, who know how to look after themselves.Elena Poniatowska (00:43:03):Of course there are people who don’t know how to do it, and there are people who sometimes end upElena Poniatowska (00:43:12):in prison or in hospital. But in general Mexico is a country of very solidary people, people who help each other and defend themselves.Julian Vigo (00:43:31):What I love about your books in general is that you give voice — you shed light on the lives that are forgotten.Julian Vigo (00:43:42):Do you feel that in this book, for example, or in Nadie Me Verá Llorar, the author’s voice becomes more present or closer to her characters than in your earlier works?Elena Poniatowska (00:43:56):No,Elena Poniatowska (00:43:57):I think that element is present in all my works — in Hasta No Verte Jesús Mío, in the book about the 2nd of October, in the earthquake — and it is always present in everything I still do at the newspaper where I work. I am in a certain way a chronicler and aElena Poniatowska (00:44:21):participant in the lives of other Mexicans.Julian Vigo (00:44:27):And I also notice that many of your works are about women — Tinísima, the life of Tina Modotti, a woman who lived so many lives in one. Leonora. And I wanted to ask — before we get to those books — about Querido Diego Te Abraza Quiela. Why did you choose that subject? Not only Diego Rivera but his first wife.Elena Poniatowska (00:44:59):I was moved to learn that in Paris, Angelina Beloff had gone to Mexico to seeElena Poniatowska (00:45:12):Diego Rivera, whom she had supported in Paris. He had lived with her and had livedElena Poniatowska (00:45:22):off her, because she was the one with a salary. He was a very young painter withoutElena Poniatowska (00:45:33):money, without resources. She helped him. And when she went to Mexico, she had also hadElena Poniatowska (00:45:42):the only male child that Diego Rivera ever had, who died of cold in Paris. And when she decided to go to Mexico — in a sense, to get to know the country of her lover — she decided to go to the Palacio de Bellas Artes because she knew that heElena Poniatowska (00:46:11):would be there. And he walked right past her — past the seat, one of those red velvet seats in the Palacio de Bellas Artes, called butacas, in which she was sitting — he walked past and did not even recognise her.Elena Poniatowska (00:46:40):That story struck me deeply, and that is why I decided to write the small book —Elena Poniatowska (00:46:55):it is not a very long book —Elena Poniatowska (00:46:58):called Querido Diego, Te Abraza Quiela.Julian Vigo (00:47:00):In Tinísima, what was it that drew you to the life of Tina Modotti?Elena Poniatowska (00:47:08):In reality it came from a request to make a film. The cinematographerElena Poniatowska (00:47:17):Gabriel Figueroa told me that a film was going to be made about Tina Modotti, the Italian woman who had been in Mexico. So I began interviewing all the people who had knownElena Poniatowska (00:47:38):Tina Modotti. And even when I was invited to France for a conference, I had theElena Poniatowska (00:47:47):opportunity to go to Udine in Italy to meet and get to know the siblings of Tina Modotti —Elena Poniatowska (00:48:00):to see them, interview them, speak with them.Elena Poniatowska (00:48:05):Then when I was told that the film about Tina Modotti in Mexico was no longer going to be made because there was no money, I — who had gone at my own expense to that conference in France and another writers’ conference inElena Poniatowska (00:48:37):Italy — decided to launch into writing the novel called Tinísima, because I hadElena Poniatowska (00:48:48):interviewed many old communists whom I had gone to visitElena Poniatowska (00:48:56):in their various homes — generally very modest, very poor homes.Elena Poniatowska (00:49:03):I did not want to let them down, and so the novel Tinísima was published.Julian Vigo (00:49:10):And to what extent does Tina Modotti represent the struggle of the woman artist in the twentieth century?Elena Poniatowska (00:49:19):To the extent that she commits herself —Elena Poniatowska (00:49:23):she takes photographs of Mexico alongside Edward Weston, and then goes alongsideElena Poniatowska (00:49:33):Commander Carlos of the Fifth Regiment to Spain — she goes to the Spanish Civil War and becomes a nurse, caring evenElena Poniatowska (00:49:52):on the ground for the bodies that had fallen on the earth before taking them to the Red Cross — giving them first aid and dedicating herself to saving lives,Elena Poniatowska (00:50:08):or helping to save lives. I believe that many soldiers did not die thanks to the care of this womanElena Poniatowska (00:50:19):who was in the trench following the doctors.Julian Vigo (00:50:25):You have said that the writer must be a bridge.Julian Vigo (00:50:29):Between what worlds do you think it is most necessary to build bridges — or should we be breaking bridges today?Elena Poniatowska (00:50:38):No, I think one should never break a bridge, for anything.Elena Poniatowska (00:50:42):I think one mustElena Poniatowska (00:50:45):communicate — that the most important thing in the life of any human being is dialogue. Peoples too must dialogue with others in order to know each other. I think Mexico must have a dialogue with the United States, and that many Mexicans who have returned fromElena Poniatowska (00:51:09):the United States because TrumpElena Poniatowska (00:51:12):did not want to receive them, has rejected them — well, they nevertheless had, with another nation or with the inhabitants of another nation, knowledge and dialogue.Elena Poniatowska (00:51:28):And that I believe is what is called,Elena Poniatowska (00:51:34):within Catholicism if you like, or within any religion by whatever name it may be called — that is human fraternity. The otherElena Poniatowska (00:51:50):is the one who exists and who awaits you and whom you must help, because perhapsElena Poniatowska (00:51:58):one day you will need him to extend a hand to you.Julian Vigo (00:52:05):Trump is certainly a character, but I see the situation as too tragic for Americans — the United States, still my country — because the reality is that a large part of the Western world has absolutely no idea of the immense cultural, intellectual, and spiritual richness of Mexico.Julian Vigo (00:52:30):For me, it’s not only Trump —Julian Vigo (00:52:32):but Americans, Canadians, etc.Julian Vigo (00:52:35):know nothing about the sharpest chroniclers of this country. If you had to open the eyes of an international audience completely unaware of Mexico’s depth, what would you say is the most valuable treasure of Mexican identity that the rest of the world is missing?Elena Poniatowska (00:53:01):Well, I must say that many North Americans have come and written about Mexico — anthropologists and sociologists. We have Oscar LewisElena Poniatowska (00:53:17):and many others who have written about the poorest Mexicans, starting in Tepoztlán, a city near Mexico City, following them to the vecindades in the city where they took refuge and found very modest work. So yes, there have been North AmericansElena Poniatowska (00:53:44):who have written about the richness and beauty of Mexico, and their books areElena Poniatowska (00:53:53):translated into Spanish and are admired and appreciated by Mexicans who are grateful that attention is paid to them. So one cannot say that no one who has come from outside has cared about Mexico — in archaeology, in anthropology, as well as figures like Frances Toor, who was a North American woman who created a magazineElena Poniatowska (00:54:39):called Mexico Today and wrote extensively about Mexican customs and lived in Taxco.Elena Poniatowska (00:54:41):For example, a certain William Spratling enriched himself personally but helped many Mexicans inElena Poniatowska (00:54:51):Taxco to learn how to work silver and sell silver. And still today many foreigners and tourists go to buy silver objectsElena Poniatowska (00:55:10):that come from a mine discovered by foreigners — and clearly alsoElena Poniatowska (00:55:20):plundered, one might say, by foreigners.Julian Vigo (00:55:30):Because not everything is entirely good or entirely bad. But I was referring to the fact that — as you know, having been in the United States and many other countries — Trump and far too many people insufficiently educated about Mexico think that all Mexicans want to invade the United States. But the reality is otherwise. In Mexico there was a great cinematic tradition, for example. Mexican cinema has greatly influenced Hollywood — not only today but throughout history. The Oscar statuette itself was modelled on the body of El Indio Fernández. People do not know the depth of Mexican philosophy. I am thinking of Sor Juana, who contributed so much to poetry, theatre, even science — if we think of her letter to Sor Filotea, who was actually Manuel Fernández de Puebla. That dialogue was very important. Western feminists know nothing of these exchanges between those two figures. But for me Mexico has an enormous and very important force in the history of philosophy, science, and feminism. And I am thinking of Octavio Paz’s book on Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, called Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, or The Traps of Faith. You knew Paz closely. Did you have conversations with him about his perspective on this book — especially regarding the power dynamics of the Church and the silencing she suffered as an intellectual woman?Elena Poniatowska (00:58:09):No, but I think you are mixing very many topics into one question, and it isElena Poniatowska (00:58:18):difficult to answer you because you are speaking of very diverse things that evenElena Poniatowska (00:58:27):happened in different centuries.Elena Poniatowska (00:58:30):Sor Juana — there have always been in Mexico,Elena Poniatowska (00:58:34):before Octavio Paz, people who dedicated themselves to reading,Elena Poniatowska (00:58:40):studying, and getting to know Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz.Elena Poniatowska (00:58:45):I will not add more names to those you mentioned, but there are many studies and many Sor Juana scholars in Mexico, as well as at the University of SantaElena Poniatowska (00:59:01):Barbara, California, in Paris, in France —Elena Poniatowska (00:59:04):there are many studies on the great figures of Mexico — not only The Traps of Faith by the Mexican poet Octavio Paz. So these are studies that will continue and do continue. In California, for example, Sara Poot HerreraElena Poniatowska (00:59:32):is dedicated to studying Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, along with many other scholars — I don’t know if she is still living — whose name was Rivers. All of these are studies that have been carried out in Mexico and outside Mexico.Julian Vigo (00:59:55):No, I was asking specifically about Paz’s book because you knew him and —Elena Poniatowska (01:00:03):I knew him,Elena Poniatowska (01:00:04):I admired him, and I also wrote about him. I have a book about him. I admired him,Elena Poniatowska (01:00:12):I knew him, his poetry dazzled me. And he is a man whom I have admired since getting to know him, and whom I also hold with affection.Julian Vigo (01:00:29):I asked about your relationship with him because sometimes it happens to me too — with other writers — one asks or someone asks me, “Why did you do that?” It is a dialogue. Because that book, The Traps of Faith, had something very important — not only for Mexico but it placed the image of Sor Juana before the world. Many people began to ask who this nun was because it is very important. I was asking about the presentation Paz gave of her — whether you had any dialogues with Paz from your own perspective.Elena Poniatowska (01:01:20):Well, yes, of course. But there were others who also spoke at great length about Sor Juana de la Cruz — other Mexicans before Octavio Paz, other Mexicans who, for example, also concerned themselves with indigenous peoples, such as a priest — Ángel María Garibay — who was also a Sor Juana scholar. So there are many studies on Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz and there are Sor Juana scholars in Santa Bárbara, for example, such as Doctor Sara Poot Herrera and others — a woman by the name of Rivers and many more.Julian Vigo (01:02:16):You have dedicated your life to listening and giving voice to those who have none, through the chronicle and literature.Julian Vigo (01:02:26):Today,Julian Vigo (01:02:27):with social media,Julian Vigo (01:02:28):it seems that everyone has a platform for opinions.Julian Vigo (01:02:32):But are we really listening?Julian Vigo (01:02:36):What happens to the power of the word when it becomes a constant noise, as in social media?Elena Poniatowska (01:02:45):I don’t know.Elena Poniatowska (01:02:46):I suppose it loses efficacy.Elena Poniatowska (01:02:49):But that depends on the activity of each human being.Elena Poniatowska (01:02:58):There are people — elderly people, for example, people already old — for whom life,Elena Poniatowska (01:03:08):even in institutions, in care homes, means turning the television on from morning until night and being entertained — that is, entertained without making the least effort of criticism or thought in front ofElena Poniatowska (01:03:29):the television.Elena Poniatowska (01:03:31):I have seen that this has been very important in keeping the elderly calm andElena Poniatowska (01:03:41):allowing them to die little by little in institutions called health facilities, where they have thisElena Poniatowska (01:03:52):constant and rather sad entertainment. ButElena Poniatowska (01:03:59):as they say in Mexico: no hay de otra — there is no other option, or no other option has been found, or there are not enough people willing to dedicate themselves to attending to and caring for others. So I see it as an end of lifeElena Poniatowska (01:04:28):for an individual who was once a thinking individual, who knew how to act,Elena Poniatowska (01:04:37):who knew how to elevate himself,Elena Poniatowska (01:04:41):to become a better human being. And I find it sad.Julian Vigo (01:04:46):Today, and for twenty years now, I have noticed as a university professor that students are reading less and less. Today, with so-called artificial intelligence — so-called because intelligence it is not — students are not reading. How can literature or journalism restore the true value and depth of words when we are in a world full of social media, opinions, and videos of a cat doing something funny?Elena Poniatowska (01:05:31):Your question is very difficult because I don’t have the answer.Elena Poniatowska (01:05:37):What I can say is that ultimately it depends on the teachers.Elena Poniatowska (01:05:44):It depends on students having a good teacher,Elena Poniatowska (01:05:49):because even I have seen in classes —Elena Poniatowska (01:05:54):in different classes —Elena Poniatowska (01:05:57):that many young people continue looking at their phones while the teacher is writing onElena Poniatowska (01:06:07):the board, or speaking, or giving a class.Elena Poniatowska (01:06:13):So we shall see whether the destiny of young people will depend on what theyElena Poniatowska (01:06:21):learn from their phone. I don’t have a phone —Elena Poniatowska (01:06:27):I never bought one,Elena Poniatowska (01:06:28):never got one. Or whether they will be able to go beyond themselvesElena Poniatowska (01:06:37):and beyond above all what the phone wants to give you or teach you or not teach youElena Poniatowska (01:06:46):or distract you from — because ultimately it is a distraction. Yes.Julian Vigo (01:06:53):Writing something to share — in quotation marks — they are sharing nothing in the end. I have noticed that many people are sharing articles they have not read. Young people are embracing identity politics and cancel cultureJulian Vigo (01:07:16):in the absence of any engagement with material reality today.Julian Vigo (01:07:21):That is my fear —Julian Vigo (01:07:23):that the millennials,Julian Vigo (01:07:26):this generation of thirty-year-olds,Julian Vigo (01:07:31):are fixated on pronounsJulian Vigo (01:07:36):but do nothing to help their neighbour.Julian Vigo (01:07:41):They do nothing to fight for living wages.Elena Poniatowska (01:07:46):Well, not all of them.Elena Poniatowska (01:07:49):It’s a generalisation, of course.Elena Poniatowska (01:07:54):But I think you are right.Elena Poniatowska (01:07:58):It is a generalisation, because in any case there are human beings who live for others.Julian Vigo (01:08:08):We are in two camps today, because during the lockdown I noticed that many people — even on the right — were fighting for the poor in the United States, where I published. I could not publish a single article questioning the lockdown. That is when I started Savage Minds, because I was asking: what is happening? I no longer recognise this world in which the left is pushing people not to speak. We weren’t talking about the lockdown, and the right was speaking very openly. And I see that politically, left and right — there is no longer that dichotomy, so to speak.Elena Poniatowska (01:09:02):Yes,Elena Poniatowska (01:09:03):I thank you greatly for your interest and I thank you enormously for this conversation. I feel animated,Elena Poniatowska (01:09:11):I feel glad to hear what you are saying.Elena Poniatowska (01:09:19):But I do feel that,Elena Poniatowska (01:09:22):as you say,Elena Poniatowska (01:09:23):the speed,Elena Poniatowska (01:09:26):the pace of all events,Elena Poniatowska (01:09:29):the television —Elena Poniatowska (01:09:32):it sets critical thinking and reflection on events to one side,Elena Poniatowska (01:09:41):because everything must be immediate, mustn’t it?Elena Poniatowska (01:09:46):That is to say, everything ends in a second. Even the deepest interests sometimes last onlyElena Poniatowska (01:09:56):a few — one might even think, as we say in Mexico,Elena Poniatowska (01:10:01):un ratito — just a little while. There is no continuity in ideas orElena Poniatowska (01:10:12):even in purposes. There is something we all know called habit, and each personElena Poniatowska (01:10:21):lives according to the habits they have established in order to keep going —Elena Poniatowska (01:10:28):to keep existing, if you will. To make it to night, fall asleep, and know that you will wake the following day. Or perhaps you won’t wake, because — well, for example, IElena Poniatowska (01:10:45):am a person of 94 years old and I have no certainty that I will see the following morning. ButElena Poniatowska (01:10:55):what I do believe is thatElena Poniatowska (01:10:58):I believe in the innate goodness of every human being.Elena Poniatowska (01:11:03):I have to believe in it, because I need that hope.(01:12:02): Get full access to Savage Minds at www.savageminds.co/subscribe

Journalist, grassroots organiser, and author Chris Kaspar de Ploeg pulls back the curtain on how Western legacy media operates to manufacture consent for imperialist, neocolonial, and xenophobic narratives. Moving beyond surface-level partisan bickering, de Ploeg utilizes a rigorous socioeconomic and class-based analysis to dissect the structural mechanisms that dictate modern news coverage. The discussion explores how Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky’s Propaganda Model manifests today, examining a media ecosystem where the audience is treated as the product rather than the client. De Ploeg shares his firsthand experience with media blackouts following the release of his book, Ukraine in the Crossfire, illustrating the real-world boundaries of acceptable discourse. His analysis then expands to the broader political economy of news—including corporate monopolies, advertising reliance, and state subsidies—before delivering a critical evaluation of the media’s disparate framing of state violence, civilian casualties, and ideological weaponisation in the Gaza crisis. Finally, the conversation tackles the illusion of choice in the digital age, analysing how algorithmic shadow-banning and digital oligopolies bottleneck dissent to provide an essential, uncompromising look at the forces shaping our perception of global conflict. Get full access to Savage Minds at www.savageminds.co/subscribe