Navigating Career Shifts as a New (or Old) Mom
January 21, 2024 / Mom &… Podcast Episode 144 / Guest: Jess Galica
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Show Summary:
In this episode of the Mom &… Podcast, hosts Susanne Kerns and Missy Stevens welcome Jess Galica, an executive and career coach, speaker, and author. Jess shares her journey of transitioning from corporate roles to becoming a career coach, particularly focusing on the intertwining of motherhood and career aspirations. The discussion delves into the impact of COVID-19 on work-life paradigms, common career challenges faced by moms, and strategies for re-entering the workforce. They also emphasize the importance of support systems like coaches and community networks while touching on Jess’ book LEAP: WHY IT’S TIME TO LET GO TO GET AHEAD IN YOUR CAREER.
Topics From This Episode:
00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Hosts
01:17 Guest Introduction: Jess Galica
01:56 Jess’s Career Journey and Motherhood
03:41 Impact of COVID on Career and Motherhood
05:35 Navigating Career Transitions
09:11 The Role of Coaching and Support
11:56 Storytelling and Overcoming Negative Self-Talk
18:14 Networking Strategies for Moms
24:21 Maintaining a LinkedIn Profile
26:53 Strategic Activities During Career Breaks
28:37 Exploring Core Values and Interests
30:12 Introduction to Jess’s Book
30:45 Navigating Career Shifts as a New Mom
32:39 Finding Comfort in Shared Experiences
34:11 Promoting the Book and Connecting with the Author
34:46 Look, Listen, Learn Segment Introduction
35:07 Susanne’s Look, Listen, Learn
43:10 Jessica’s Look, Listen, Learn
46:52 Missy’s Look, Listen, Learn
53:31 Final Thoughts and Farewell
Look, Listen, Learns
Susanne:
Shopping for a printer
MOTHER OF STRANGERS, by Suad Amiry
How learning to put in contacts is a metaphor for life
Jess:
Origin
Neha Ruch, Mother Untitled
Melinda French Gates’s new philanthropic endeavors for women’s rights
Missy:
LAY YOUR BODY DOWN, by Amy Suiter Clark
Listening to favorites playlist and a lot of Taylor Swift
Graston technique
More About Jess Galica:
Jessica Galica has worked in almost every kind of corporate environment, from Fortune 100 titans to startups to management consulting at prestigious Bain & Company. Today she splits her career between her role as a Director at Siemens and her work executive coaching and writing on how high-performing women can reclaim control, fulfillment, and greater success within their careers.
Jess has researched women and career throughout her education. Her undergraduate thesis at Georgetown University examined depictions of working moms across media. And at MIT Sloan School of Management, where Jess earned her MBA, she pioneered the first research study to compare rates of students’ class participation by gender—proving her hypothesis that men were more likely than women to speak up in quantitative courses.
Jess wants to redefine for high-performing women what a successful career looks like. Reclaim Your Career began as a personal project to redirect Jess’ career, but quickly became something much bigger. Jess discovered that her story—building a career, doing everything “right,” but waking up lost—is not unique. She had struck a larger chord. A personal project turned into dozens of in-depth interviews and valuable research on “the why and how” of reinventing your career. Now Jess is on a mission to share these insights so that all women have the inspiration and tools to build a purposeful, intentional career.
Jess is a present mom to her two kids and lives in Boston’s Charlestown neighborhood with her husband Matt and dog Riley.
Connect with Jess Galica:
Website
LinkedIn
Instagram
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Musical Notes
Our delightfully happy intro and outro theme music, “We Will Get Through This” is performed by Young Presidents, and used under license from Shutterstock.
Transcript is auto-generated by a robot. Apologies in advance for misspellings or errors.
[00:00:04] Susanne: Welcome to the mom and dot, dot, dot podcast, the podcast that helps you make your ellipses count, you know, all the dot, dot, dots that come after I’m a mom and I’m Susanne Kerns, mom and dot, dot, dot writer, LGBTQ and sex ed advocate. And today, Prepping to jump from the frying pan into the fire, at least temperature wise, as we are heading to Arizona to celebrate my mother in law’s birthday.
I mean, it’s been in the high nineties here in Texas, but it’s going to be 104 there, so.
[00:00:35] Missy: but it’s a dry heat.
[00:00:37] Susanne: It’s a dry heat, yes, that’s true. Look at you looking on
[00:00:40] Missy: what they always say. I did think when we were there for a conference last year, I did think like it is different.
[00:00:47] Susanne: is. Anything’s better than Texas, really, for many reasons.
[00:00:52] Missy: Right. Agreed. Well, I’m Missy Stevens, mom and dot, dot, dot writer, foster care advocate. And today parent of a kid with a fresh new learner’s permit. We have another learning driver on the road
[00:01:04] Susanne: Ooh,
[00:01:04] Missy: and he drove himself to swim practice this morning.
Very exciting.
[00:01:07] Susanne: that is a big deal.
[00:01:09] Missy: He keeps asking me if I need to go anywhere today and if he can take me and I’m like, Nope. Don’t have anywhere to go today.
[00:01:16] Susanne: Can he come take Zoe to the store because she doesn’t want to drive?
[00:01:19] Missy: He’d be happy to.
[00:01:20] Susanne: Thank you. And today we are so excited to be welcoming Jess Gallagher to the podcast. Jess is a mom and executive and career coach, sought after speaker on topics around women’s leadership and motherhood, host of the Reclaim Your Career podcast and author of the book Leap, Why It’s Time to Let Go.
Go and get ahead in your career. Jess holds an MBA from MIT Sloan School of Management, and a BA from Georgetown University. Welcome, Jess. We are so excited to have you here.
[00:01:56] Jess: Hey, both. It is great to be here. Excited to chat today.
[00:02:00] Missy: Awesome. Well, we want to dive into everything you do, but we thought we’d start with a just one on one and give us like a little snapshot if you can of where you started and what got you to where you are now.
[00:02:12] Jess: sure. Yeah. So like you mentioned, I’m a mom. I have two kids, a daughter who is three and a half years old and a one year old son. So I am in the thick of it in those early years of motherhood, um, which is both wonderful and of course a challenge too. but my story is really about the intersection of my role as a mom also with my career ambition.
And I spent the first 15 years of my career in pretty traditional corporate business roles. I worked in management consulting. I worked in tech leading global sales teams. And then my career really shifted in the beginning of 2020 before the pandemic broke out. I felt really unfulfilled at work despite working at all of these amazing companies and organizations.
I just felt like I hadn’t found my place when it came to my career. And then of course I was stepping into motherhood for the first time. So I was pregnant with my now three and a half year old and that stepping into motherhood transformed really everything when it came to my career. But I had this deep desire to pursue work that felt more fulfilling.
And I also had this desire to show up as a mom and invest more time with my kids that evolved starting as I became a mom and then has evolved in the years since. So that led me to write the book that you see behind me, which helps women who are kind of grappling with this question of how do I redefine my career and my career ambition, particularly after motherhood, um, and has led me to all of the work that I do today that I know we’ll dive a lot more into.
[00:03:45] Susanne: Oh, it’s interesting, especially after that period of COVID that you’re, I mean, you had so many big life changes happening. Along with this global phenomenon, not in a good way, um, of COVID. So, I’m, I’m guessing that that greatly influenced the, the themes that you are hearing from some of your coaching clients.
So, are, what, what is that looking like post COVID? those continuing themes, uh, that you see with moms.
[00:04:19] Jess: I think there are some big themes, but I think the biggest one is just that COVID for so many people, whether a parent or a caregiver or not, It really challenged these fundamental truths and assumptions that we thought were unmovable about work and our lives, right? it really upended it, like the idea that, oh, maybe we can work remotely, maybe we can move somewhere else.
this, um, you know, period where people started to, uh, COVID was such a challenging time for many, but it also was a time when a lot of people got to tap into other really rich, rewarding, fulfilling parts of their lives in a way that they hadn’t before. So I think it completely shifted, so many people that were really exclusively focused on career to really think less about just optimizing for career and more about optimizing for their life.
So for me, when I think about COVID, that is the most fundamental shift is this opening, this invitation, this possibility that work and life could look different. and opening that door a little bit, uh, allows a lot of people to make big reflections, decisions, and transitions when it comes to how they want to live their life.
[00:05:30] Susanne: Yeah. Were you seeing that a lot of those transitions were intentional or forced? I know that a lot of stay at home moms suddenly had to go back to work because the partner was laid off or maybe they were laid off and it made them have to face a transition. I’m just really curious how people approach those next steps differently when it’s something that they’re excited about and, you know, is proactive versus something that was forced upon them by an outside force.
[00:06:00] Jess: Yeah, absolutely. And sometimes it’s really clear, right? Sometimes it is choice, and sometimes it’s, um, by circumstance, and it’s very clear. And then I think there’s this kind of middle group, too, right? That it’s, well, is it choice, or is it circumstance, right? Maybe it’s not a complete choice, maybe it’s not a complete layoff scenario where it’s the only option, but it’s a pressure cooker environment of, gosh, I’m trying to juggle the cost of childcare and a dual income household or whatever it may be, but there’s so much pressure and force that whether it is choice or circumstance, but I think you’re totally right that it’s not only, you know, people and women in particular who are reimagining by choice, but there are also these really difficult circumstances with covid and then also with just generally motherhood and childcare, that force women into, you know, thinking about these situations in a new way.
[00:06:51] Susanne: Yeah,
[00:06:51] Missy: it comes to that re imagination, and this is, I may be putting my stuff into this question, but, uh, whether it’s something you want to do, cause it’s definitely a thing that I have a lot of energy around doing, but whether you want to do it or you’re being forced to do it, it’s kind of hard to know what that, how to start.
How do we even start envisioning this new thing? How do we take what we have done before and Where we are now and combine that and create next
[00:07:22] Susanne: your
[00:07:23] Missy: Where do you, yeah, where do you start with that?
[00:07:26] Jess: Yeah, I think the most helpful thing to get clear on is what’s the purpose here, right? What’s the value that you’re getting out of this? What is the why? and that can look really different, right? For people who are in a full time career wanting to switch to a full time career, that purpose might look like they want more flexibility, they want more fulfillment, they want a new different challenge.
for a stay at home parent who is, I don’t know, maybe trying to launch a small sort of side business or do something different, right? What they want out of it probably looks really different. It might be, you know, oh, I want, you know, intellectual engagement. I want a small stream of revenue. I want, you know, something to keep my foot sort of in the water because long term I may want to transition back.
but what I find is that the most important thing is not focusing on the execution, like how do I, you know, do X, Y, and Z. It’s really about getting super clear on what’s the purpose behind this, because the clearer and more confident you are on what you’re trying to get out of it, the more likely you will be to Stay committed and to execute and have that, um, just have that conviction that this is something you want to do.
And then I say all the time, once you know you want to do it, people are phenomenal, especially women and moms. They are phenomenal executors. So really investing that time to, to know your why is I think the most important first step.
[00:08:57] Susanne: And I think for probably a lot of us, that’s where a good coach comes in, because I think doing it by yourself can feel. Really overwhelming because you barely are able to find the what, let alone the why behind it. Missy and I liked to joke that after so many years of being stay at home moms, like, we didn’t even know what we liked anymore.
We didn’t know what our interests were. We didn’t know if we had any hobbies or anything that we even liked. We just did kind of whatever the schedule for our kids told us to do in a given day. And I’m guessing you’ve encountered clients who are doing the same thing.
[00:09:35] Jess: Yeah, absolutely. It’s funny, right? The, um, the biggest thing that our most common thing that I hear from clients, or if I’m doing a speaking engagement is. Well, he want, you know, I sense that I want to do something different or want to do something more, but I just, I don’t know what. And I think the most important thing that a coach can do, the coach isn’t going to give you the answers, right?
Um, that’s, you’re with the wrong coach if they’re giving you the answers. But what a coach can do is really help you to unlock that voice that you have inside of yourself, that so many women and so many moms in particular have deprioritized and silenced and kind of, you know, all of the other things have gotten stacked on top of it.
It’s really that work that a coach can help with to start to unearth, okay, what is that voice? And what are those things that I know about myself, that I want to uncover and, you know, shed some light on?
[00:10:28] Missy: I think as moms, like, my brain is going a million miles
[00:10:33] Susanne: I know. I’m
[00:10:34] Missy: This is something really top of mind for me, but, um, you know, if we made the choice to have this extensive career pause, which Suzanne did, I did. I’m not going to lie, like lately more than ever, I am regretting it because it feels insurmountable to come back from this pause.
And so what is that process like if someone like myself, for example, has been home for a long time and I’ve dabbled and I’ve done contract work and I’ve done some things, but, What does that look like when someone is trying to reinvent themselves and figure out what to do with that huge gap? How do you, how do you present it and move forward?
[00:11:13] Jess: Mm. Yeah. I think, you know, I would talk about kind of three pillars. And this is for someone who’s already been out and, You can’t change how you spent that time or you know, so we’re talking you’re already there. I think that there’s three things that we see come up a lot. And the first is that storytelling.
What is the story that you’re telling yourself and also you’re using externally to pitch and present and share who you are out with the market. So I think there is a storytelling piece that’s really, really important. And that’s a place where getting some outside help, whether a coach, right, or a peer or a friend or a mentor can be really valuable because it sounds like, well, I should just know my story.
It is so much easier for someone with a little space to help you craft that story. So that’s the first piece, this storytelling. I think the second is a really pragmatic toolkit, right? Which is, okay, how do I, gosh, pick up and dust off my resume? How do I get comfortable? You know, informational interviewing like there are these skills and tools that you need to kind of get in tip top shape again to start the process.
Um, and then the third is a good networking strategy. And of course you need one and two to support you for three, right? You need to know that story, you need to have some of the tools. But then what is your strategy to use that networking based approach? Because for, uh, you know, someone returning to work, You’ve become, in some ways, right, a non traditional candidate, and I’m using the air quotes here.
So oftentimes, using that network based approach is the most effective way to get you back into a role in, in some capacity. So I really encourage women to be thinking about those three pillars and coming up with a, a plan for each of those.
[00:13:06] Missy: That’s genius.
[00:13:07] Susanne: Okay, I’m writing down
[00:13:09] Missy: and I’m watching you write it down.
[00:13:11] Susanne: I know. Do you see what I’m writing in my notes? Okay, so around the storytelling, One of the things we talk about a lot on the podcast is our negative inner voice. And I think that maybe having a coach is what’s necessary to keep you from um, Letting that voice take over your storytelling, because I know when you’re talking about it, you’re like, no, this is the story that you’re telling about yourself to project to the world to, like, get you to that next step.
But if you have this negative inner voice, that is the story you’re listening to, like, you’re not ready to tell that story yet. So, like, how do you get from the step of, like, probably what a lot of, especially if they’ve had extensive career breaks, or if they’ve been through a layoff and are feeling the sting of that still.
Yeah. To get over the internal negative dialogue storytelling that maybe they’re hearing inside their own heads to get to the place where you’re able to tell this forward thinking story about your, your relaunch or your new career.
[00:14:12] Jess: Yeah, Suzanne, I think your instinct is right, that this is where the power of a coach can come in. But I want to be more inclusive than that. Because not everyone has access to a one on one dedicated coach. So I want to use the term broadly, but this is where a helper, let’s call it right. A helper or a cheerleader can come in.
And I think if you can find someone too, who you really know can champion you and maybe even does have, you know, their foot back in the world that you’re trying to get into, whether it’s the corporate world or whatever, right. You want that person just to really be that, um, that mirror. Who can reflect back on you in that really positive way, you know, no, no, no, no, no, Suzanne.
I know, you know, let’s tease out of you this really confident, really positive story. That’s we’re not making it up, right. It’s, it’s real, but it’s, it’s, um, you know, it’s just that confident story that is, showing you in your best light. And I see right when you’re maybe in that moment of a little bit lower confidence or insecurity or uncertainty, it is really, really hard to craft that story in that positive, confident way.
So finding someone who can kind of, you know, pull you along for that journey, right? Take the backpack if it’s heavy. is the most important thing. that the confidence piece is number one. We can get the story down on paper. You just need someone who can help, you know, hold your hand and, and, and get it out.
[00:15:35] Susanne: Wouldn’t that be the funnest girls night out, like, just to have all of you, like, partner up and find some things? Because everybody has a little bit of a different perspective. But I always love that exercise that coaches have, where they ask you to ask, like, five of your friends, what, what traits would they use to describe you or those types of things.
And I bet that would be so fun. And you could really help encourage each other and lift each other up and get a night out.
[00:16:02] Jess: Yeah.
[00:16:03] Missy: you just came up with a business idea.
[00:16:05] Susanne: Oh, okay, good. I’m gonna ignore that and let someone else monetize that and make a million dollars.
[00:16:11] Jess: Yeah. I, I love that though, because right. It’s like, you know, we, as women, we are the best type women to use. I love, I don’t know if either of you follow this Um, activist thought leader, Aaron Gallagher, who is pushing this hype women, movement, right? But we are so great at hyping and getting behind and championing the other women in our life, right?
The data shows that women are the best negotiators when they’re negotiating on behalf of someone else. And so I love that idea of
bringing that community together, right? Of like, wait, let’s all hype. Let’s all negotiate. The woman sitting next to us, because, you know, that feeling, that hype is so genuine, but it’s really hard to bring that energy for yourself.
[00:16:52] Missy: It’s so true. Like I, in my career that I’ve done a lot of contract work and I’ve worked for myself for many years and I have the hardest time selling me, you know, I could tell anybody why they should hire Suzanne to do a job. But with me, I’m like, Oh man, I can do this for you and it’s fine, you can pay me whatever, you know, like it’s just kind of this, I don’t know, like I cannot hype myself.
I do think women are great at hyping each other. And so I love the idea of if you don’t have access to a coach, because that is a privileged place to be. And maybe you don’t, whether it’s financial or time wise or whatever it is, hopefully there is at least one person in your life that you can sit down and say, help me build this story.
I think that’s pretty incredible. I love this idea.
[00:17:36] Susanne: Okay, I’m going to the third pillar now. That was my question on the storytelling. And I’m sure we, oh my gosh, we could have like 10 whole shows on the pragmatic toolkit part, but the networking strategy, I know that a lot of stay at home moms or moms, you know, who are taking a pause, feel like their network is gone.
They think a network or just the people who are your coworkers that we’re all getting paid by the same company where Missy and I kick ourselves and try to tell any listener who will listen. The people in the school pickup line are the most fascinating, interesting, talented people you will ever meet and like, ask them, ask them what they do or what they’re interested in or what they used to do or what connections they might have.
It’s shocking. The, the wealth of knowledge and networks that are available there. But do you have any other recommendations for You know, people who don’t necessarily think that they have a quote unquote network, how they can take that first step in actually using the people who are around, not using the people who are around them, but connecting and building those relationships with the people who are around them.
[00:18:47] Jess: I’ll reinforce what you said, which is start where you are, right? And for moms, right? You know, the listeners, like you said, right? That might be school drop off line. And what’s really interesting too is there’s a whole community of moms who are, are working, right? And like, let’s, let’s connect these communities.
There’s so much that. You know, moms who are working full time as stay at home parents can offer to moms who are in the paid workforce outside of the home and vice versa, and so I see that as a wonderful first place to start. And then the only separate thing that I’ll add is that Oftentimes it is not the tactical question of like, oh, well, who is out there?
Oftentimes the battle that I see women facing is this confidence thing of feeling, you know, sheepish or insecure or whatever it is. And what I’d say there is go back to number one and number two. If you feel really good and confident with your story, it becomes a whole lot easier to approach that person at school pickup line.
Um, so they all work hand in hand, right? But I think once you get that story down, it really does open up this, okay, I feel good about going and bringing this to someone and having a conversation.
[00:19:56] Missy: So, so true.
[00:19:58] Susanne: you’re right, that number two could be very helpful, and I’m sure they kind of ping back and forth and
[00:20:03] Missy: Mm
[00:20:04] Susanne: go to each of the pillars, because doing that resume, even if you don’t feel like you are going to be going out on a job search right away, is a nice reminder of the skills and talents and abilities that you have, and that you could bring to the table.
So is that something that you do recommend as an exercise for people, even if they aren’t? Doing a job search. I do recommend having a resume ready to go, because you never know when that, that conversation in the school pickup line could become something,
[00:20:35] Jess: Yeah,
[00:20:35] Susanne: you
[00:20:35] Jess: I do. I mean, you don’t have to update your resume every month, right? But having a generally fresh resume, I think is a great thing to have in your toolkit. And we can play out the scenario of this one, two, three that we’re describing, right? Of maybe, gosh, if you start to say, Oh, I kind of know my story, right?
I spent, you know, a decade in the media world. And then I took time off to be a parent and launched a podcast. And now I’m looking for opportunities, right? Okay. If we’ve got the bare bones of our story, then who knows if we run into, you know, so and so at the school drop off line, we can start to have a conversation of, Oh, interesting.
I didn’t know that you work, you know, in a creative role for this company. And, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Here’s my story. Right. Tell the story. And then they might say, Oh, interesting. You know, send me your resume. So I know more about your background can keep my eyes and ears open. So you see how they all
[00:21:27] Susanne: Mm hmm.
[00:21:29] Jess: important to have that. It will also just build your confidence and your, your sense of readiness too.
[00:21:34] Susanne: Yes. Practicing and refining that story, I’m sure, is an art form, and not something that happens perfectly the first time it rolls off your tongue.
[00:21:43] Missy: Yeah. Making it feel like, again, like you said, we’re not making it up, but making it sort of second nature to be able to tell it and make yourself remember that you’re not making it up and this is your story and that, yeah, that is something that might take some practice. Yes. But talking about all of this is making me think.
Suzanne and I have a lot of similar issues and we’re probably not alone in this. Do you see common themes with your coaching clients as they’re embarking on this new journey and trying to reinvent or reimagine their careers? Is there something that comes up over and over again?
[00:22:19] Jess: yeah. I mean, everyone’s story is unique, but absolutely there are common themes. I think two things stand out. One is that, and I’ve hinted at this in some of the questions you’ve asked, but One is that the thing holding women back from making a transition rather that regardless of, you know, if it’s to one industry to another or it’s downshifting their career or returning to a career after a period of, staying at home.
The most common theme is that people think what’s holding them back is the tactical things, the, the toolkit, so to speak, right? And I know I mentioned you need that across the board. The biggest thing that is holding women back is not that they don’t know how to update the resume or they don’t know how to do a networking call.
It’s actually these emotional barriers and these emotional challenges that are the hardest to surmount. So that fear, that lack of confidence, that guilt, maybe. Um, so I always see that as one of the most common threads, regardless of women’s story, really the biggest battle that they’re fighting is not against the resume and LinkedIn.
It’s against whatever is that emotion that’s really holding them back from that next step.
[00:23:30] Susanne: Oh, that’s funny you brought up LinkedIn because I just literally wrote that down because I wanted to ask about, coaches that we have interviewed for the show have. Different opinions. Most of them, it sounds like they pretty much recommend someone having a LinkedIn, even if they are a stay at home mom who is not actively looking for a career to maintain some connections that from their past job and just to, just to be Know what the technology is for when they are going in to update it.
Do you have any recommendations? I know they even have one of those like you can select the career as stay at home mom. Do you recommend people use that not use that? Address their career gap on LinkedIn. Like what are your your best recommend or What?
[00:24:14] Jess: There
[00:24:15] Susanne: at a loss for words today, but best, best practices.
Yeah. What are your best
[00:24:19] Jess: to me that feel universal. I can give you the answer and other things that I, um, you know, I feel that it’s a, it’s a matter of style. So where I feel absolutely adamant is that, yes, take the time to create a LinkedIn profile and update it.
Um, you don’t have to be on it every day, but there’s really no downside here. It allows you, like you said, to maintain those connections. Add new connections, right? If you did meet someone interesting in the makeup line, add them on LinkedIn, right? And send a note that gives you that jogs your memory too on, ooh, what was the sort of context here?
So there’s really no downside to having it, and there are downsides to not investing that time. So You know, absolutely. I encourage all women and all moms, even if they’re not in the paid workforce outside of the home right now to still maintain a LinkedIn account. Where I think it’s more a matter of style is how you want to communicate this role in this time that you’re spending as a full time caregiver.
And I think that there are, I don’t feel strongly about this. I think that if you want to communicate that, that’s great. If you don’t, that’s great too. Um, I also think if there are other, uh, activities that you can bring in, for example, if you are a board member of a school or a PTO or you are doing volunteer work, those are fantastic ways to kind of maintain that sense of relevancy and, and activity.
without necessarily having to center it on your role as a caregiver. So those are my, you know, two tips. Absolutely have the account when it comes to that stay at home mom. I think it’s a personal kind of style decision, but also it’s not limited to that. Think about the activities that you’re playing in your community and beyond and how those can be part of your story too.
[00:26:07] Susanne: And how can we like to encourage, especially stay at home moms to use their time at home to get really strategic about making decisions about those activities that they choose to do during that time? Do you have any thoughts around that? Or is it very much interest led or, you know, should that time be a big part of it?
period of introspection versus doing like, how, how do you help and guide moms to approach that?
[00:26:34] Jess: yeah. I think two different strategies depending on what the long term goal is for the mom, right? So I think if you’re a mom who’s planning to take a career break, but you’ve got a vision that, Hey, I want to return, and I want to return in this way. I want to return back to my industry, or I want to, you know, return to X.
Then, I think you should use the activities that you’re, you know, doing during your time off strategically. Map them to what you want, right? So if you want to return to your industry, gosh, is there any way to stay involved, right? Can you do volunteer work that’s in the same industry? Can you maybe write an article?
Could you, I mean, you, podcasting is a ton of work, right? But, um, but, uh, you know, something that’s relevant to that. So I think if you know where you want to go, it’s a no brainer, try to map some of your activities so that you maintain that kind of foot in the water. I think if you’re someone who is more open ended, you’re taking the time off, you’re not sure, then I would recommend be interest led, right?
Because there’s not really that, that other guidepost that you can use. And so allow your own interest, your own skills, your values, be the thing that starts to, to shift you towards the, the work and activities that you, you choose.
[00:27:49] Susanne: you have any favorite exercises that you recommend? I know it always seems like everything comes back to figuring out your core values before you jump too far into that. Do you adhere to that as well or do you have some other recommendations to get that ball rolling?
[00:28:06] Jess: And this would be for moms or women who are, um, don’t have that long term vision in place and they’re trying to figure out where to start. Yeah, yeah. Um, I’d like values. I think sometimes though that can feel a little bit, it can almost stump people like, well, huh, what, how do I figure out my values? and so, you know, another way to think about it is to think about the work experience that you have, whether that’s your, you know, professional paid work experience in the paid workforce or even the work that you’re doing in your, you know, life as a caregiver or in your community and start to just think about, okay, what do I really like?
Right? What are the activities that are energizers for me? And what are the activities that are drainers, right? That, oh, I dread this, or I really always hated this about work. That can be a little bit more of an accessible way to start to get at, okay, what are my values and my interests? If you’re someone who immediately taps into that, that’s great.
But if you’re someone thinking, well, I don’t know. I don’t really know what my values are. I like to offer that as an alternative too. Just really simple. What do you enjoy doing? What gives you energy? And what do you not? What’s the opposite?
[00:29:19] Missy: I think that’s great advice. I want to think this is a good moment to go into the book. I want to make sure we spend a few minutes talking about the book. And you mentioned at the top of talking that it came out of this like life COVID pivot that you were going through. But talk to us a little bit more about where the book came from and what your goal was when writing it.
[00:29:41] Jess: I really wrote the book that I wanted and needed for myself. So, at the outset of 2020, like I mentioned pre pandemic, I felt really lost in my career in terms of fulfillment. And I was also stepping into motherhood for the first time. so I knew my hypothesis was, Okay, I know that I’m on the precipice of a big shift, a big transition when it comes to work.
And I know that there’s something really important to not just about a career pivot, but about being a woman doing this and being a mom doing this. And there were a lot of books and resources out there about making a career change, but very, very few that rooted it in the context specifically for women and working moms.
And so that’s the book that I wanted. Like, how do you figure this out? If you wake up after a career and you’re feeling unfulfilled and you’re knowing that as a mom, a lot in your career is about to shift. How do you navigate with all of the emotions that come with that? And how do you execute? Where do you go from here?
And so really, the inspiration was kind of my own personal career crisis. And I was able to learn from, interviews and studying the trajectories of over 150 women who made these types of transitions. And started to see these bits of wisdom and these learnings for, okay, these are, here are some models or some, All right.
You know, helpful information to navigate this period that feels so, so messy and confusing.
[00:31:08] Missy: It’s so overwhelming, I feel like, to, I mean, you say you woke up one day, or you suddenly realized that you were unfulfilled, and you pour yourself into work, and to realize you’re unfulfilled, and then think also, well, my whole life is changing at the same time. I’m also now a parent, or whatever, like, It’s hugely overwhelming, and I love that you took it and wrote a book out of it instead of just curling up in the corner and rocking slowly back and forth as some of us might have done.
[00:31:35] Susanne: Yeah, I think this is the book we needed too, Missy, approximately 18 years
[00:31:40] Missy: years ago.
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:31:42] Susanne: time
[00:31:43] Jess: that was one of the other motivators too, is I felt initially really alone in this. I’m like, what is wrong with me that I can’t figure this out? I’ve had these wonderful jobs and these wonderful opportunities and it still doesn’t feel right. I really was coming from this place of, okay, I feel like I’ve got a defect.
Something is wrong with me here. And what really motivated me is that as I started to have conversations, I realized, oh, wow, almost, it feels like almost every woman in my peer set and, you know, a half step ahead and a half step behind is grappling with these same exact questions. And so that became really comforting for me.
And of course, made me super interested in the topic to realize that, oh, this isn’t a me problem. And This is actually a much bigger, women, cultural, huge problem.
[00:32:28] Susanne: Yeah. I think that’s one of the main things we have learned from the podcast too. I mean, we started it to answer these questions that we thought it was just unique to you, me and Missy. And yeah. Like, you know, maybe some other people could potentially get, you know, some interest out of it. And I feel like our lives just revolve, everybody’s lives revolve around the same five problems.
And, you know, we get stuck in them because we think we’re the only one. And it’s very embarrassing to admit that we’re not doing everything perfectly. When if we could just let that guard down and share that with people, we would realize that, oh no, everybody is feeling the same way. No one is alone in this.
Yes. All
[00:33:08] Missy: Well, before we, it’s almost time to jump into our Look, Listen, Learns. I want to be careful with our time today, but, um, before that, let’s tell people where to find the book because I think that most of our listeners, if not all of them, would really benefit from reading it and where to connect with you.
[00:33:24] Jess: Sure. Well, the book is available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, wherever you buy your books. Um, it is called Leap, Why It’s Time to Let Go to Get Ahead in Your Career. And then you can follow me on LinkedIn, Jess Gallica, or head to the website, jessicagallica. com.
[00:33:41] Missy: All right. We’ll put that all in the show notes too. well, I think we’re going to go into our look, listen, learns. And if you have not been here before, we’re so glad that you are listening today. And look, listen, learn is something we do at the end of every show. Just for fun. We talk about what we’ve been reading or watching, listening to new products we may have found.
Sometimes it’s ridiculous and sometimes it’s really serious and we don’t like our guests to have to go first. So Suzanne, you are up first today. What are you look, listening, learning?
[00:34:10] Susanne: Oh my gosh. I am looking at new printers. I,
[00:34:16] Missy: funny, as Jess had a printer problem today. I thought that was great timing.
[00:34:20] Jess: tip.
[00:34:20] Susanne: oh my goodness. Well, I had done like a little post on Instagram or whatever at like 11 o’clock at night, the night before the last day of school, because I usually print out these cute little cards for the teachers or whatever to put the gift card and stuff in there.
And so I thought, okay, yeah, it’s 11, but I felt like I was ready to go because I was like. They’re already formatted. I got the paper. Let’s go. But I sent my husband on an emergency ink run to Walmart to go get some printer ink because, of course, that’s the time when you get the printer ink error. Shove all the ink into the printer, and then it gives me this new error that I had never heard of before.
And I Google it, and there’s just a bunch of This random guy, I’ll have to share the link to this video. It’s so funny. The guy is like, Well, this error usually means it’s a goner, but let’s give it a try. And he’s like,
I don’t think it’s gonna work, but let’s try it. And so I did what he said to do, and then it went to a new error, and then everything just went dark.
But the, oh my god, we were laughing so hard, because the final error I got before it went dark. was to unplug the printer. And I took that as originally like, Oh, you know, that’s how you solve problems with electronics. You unplug them and you plug them back in. But I think it may mean like, you do not want what is happening in this computer to be Connected to an electronic source right
now. So it is unplugged. It is just sitting there. I’m very sad because we’ve had a long history of really crappy printers. And this one, even like on our little wifi or whatever, password is like world’s best printer, like it really has done well by us over the past several years. So even though I want to go, what’s that movie where they smash the printer in the field office space?
[00:36:11] Missy: Oh, yeah, if it’s facing
[00:36:12] Susanne: Yeah, I kind of want to do that, but I also just kind of want to thank it for its service because It’s been a good printer up until now. Oh, but I hate shopping for printers, but that is what I’m doing
[00:36:23] Missy: fun thing to have to buy.
[00:36:24] Susanne: Yes, um, let’s see. I’m listening. I just finished listening for my fancy schmancy book club mother of strangers And I’m not gonna pronounce the name right, but I think it’s Suad Amri and it was very timely in the world today.
It takes place, between 1947, 1951 in Jaffa, right after the 1948 Palestine war. As the population was fleeing or being expelled and the establishment of the state of Israel. So definitely a topic that is current. Now the book is a few years old, but it just for someone who really has found myself in needing to get a lot of information and educate myself in something I probably should have been more educated about for a long, long time.
Um, it’s just a, I mean, it’s a novel. It’s not a, you know. It’s not a documentary or anything. It’s not nonfiction. Um, actually, it is somewhat nonfiction. I wish she would have told me this at the beginning of the book, but in the end of the book, they say how it actually is based on someone’s story. It’s very loosely based on someone’s story.
so it was just, it was very interesting to see like how it could have been on the ground during this time period and what that, what that felt like in everybody’s day to day lives.
[00:37:49] Missy: Yeah.
[00:37:50] Susanne: And it kind of reminded me of how people Because we were into, you know, we were like, Oh my gosh, there’s all this stuff going around and this guy’s really worried about his suit.
Like how this new suit he got, and he’s just super preoccupied with that. But it was just kind of funny because I’m like, just look at all of us. There’s just such craziness in the world right now going on. And we’re like, okay, what, what do you put in your smoothie, Missy? Like what? I mean, just like, The most nonsensical things that we find to be important in our day to day life when everything else is so, it’s almost like everything’s so important that we have to be unimportant just to keep ourselves sane,
[00:38:28] Missy: Right. Our brains do funny things to keep us from
[00:38:31] Susanne: to protect us from the trauma of it all.
When not everybody has the luxury of being able to just tune out. Um, so it was, it was, it was good for me to tune in a little bit, even if it was in this fictionalized book. Um, and then learning, I am learning that the initial process of learning how to put in contact lenses is a metaphor for everything.
In the world, my son had a two hour appointment yesterday to learn how to put in his contact lenses, and we’re going back for round two in a couple of days because we were not complete. But I told him, I was like, do not feel bad. Like, I remember getting mine at pretty much his exact same age, and they just shut down the mall around me at this place and basically just sent me home.
They gave up. But it made me think that I’m like. I’m trying to explain to him, you are not doing anything wrong. Your body is just doing everything right. In
[00:39:33] Missy: supposed to touch your eyeball.
[00:39:35] Susanne: your eye is doing exactly what it is built to do. You have millennia of, you know, genetics that are telling your eye, no, no, don’t put that in there.
But it just, it reminds me of all the things that we hear about, like taking chances or jumping, or, you know, something that feels very unnatural to every safety mechanism in our body that is like there to protect us from doing things that feel scary or that, you know, back in caveman days could have killed us.
But it just, I was like, you just got to keep poking yourself in the eye until your eye learns that this is okay. And so it’s almost like this exposure therapy for his eyeball, but it just, it seemed like such a metaphor for everything that’s not truly dangerous, but our body wants us to think is dangerous.
And what a weird conflict that is to try to get through in life. So I’m learning that and trying to give myself grace, trying to teach him to give himself some grace in that you’re not doing anything wrong. Your body’s doing everything it’s supposed to do. You just got to come to an agreement here. So,
[00:40:45] Missy: I think that’s a really great, great thing to say to him. And please tell him that as a 50 year old, I reentered the world of contacts after trying them many years ago and deciding it wasn’t for me. And so I, I mean, it took me, I don’t know how long it took me, but I had to relearn as well and would plan extra time to get ready every day because I knew that it was going to take me a few minutes.
And still to this day, my right eye is like, no, I don’t want that. Like it takes a minute every day. Um, I’m much better at it
[00:41:14] Susanne: a woman I work with sent me a video, and we’ll link it in the show notes, that is supposedly, of course, we got it like a minute before he was getting kicked out of the optical shop, but it’s a way where you put the contact lens here on your finger
[00:41:28] Missy: Oh,
[00:41:29] Susanne: instead of on your fingertip, and instead of lifting your eyelid, you Look down and just shove.
So we’ll see if that works, but she said it worked for her son and for a nephew or someone who could not get a contact lens in. And this one method worked, so. We’re going to try that tomorrow, but today we’re giving his little eyeballs and his sanity a break.
[00:41:52] Missy: Yeah. Sometimes you just got to take a break and try again.
[00:41:54] Susanne: Yes. What about you, Jessica? You look less, or Jess, what do you look less than learning?
[00:42:00] Jess: I love this question. Well, I’ve got a lot of content racks and Missy, you’re inspiring my look one because I was looking at your bookshelf behind you and the book
cast. And remembering that I just watched, uh, the movie Origin, which is kind of the movie representation of the book cast. The movie’s done, um, produced by Ava DuVernay, and, um, yeah, so, and it was wonderful.
Highly, highly recommend, so. That’s what I looked at the bookshelf and then I was watching the the TV recently and watching that movie. So that’s a great one that I recommend for for look. And then what’s next? Listen?
[00:42:40] Missy: Lesson.
[00:42:41] Jess: Yeah, you know, I think one, gosh, one woman who I’m listening to and who is really resonating with me and I think will super resonate with your audience is Neha Roosh, who is the founder of the platform Mother Untitled.
[00:42:55] Susanne: Yes,
[00:42:56] Jess: Yeah. All right. I was gonna say you must follow Neha or some of her content. But for anyone who’s listening and doesn’t, right, um, her whole goal with the platform is really to redefine stay at home motherhood and make space for it as a time of still retaining ambition and creativity and purpose. And I just love the way that she is really celebrating this gray area between traditional work and motherhood and, you know, the diversity of women who show up in that space and kind of breaking down these rigid boundaries between the two.
Um, so she does weekly, uh, pep talks, she calls them, where she features, you know, a thinker or just anyone who’s kind of in this gray space between work and motherhood. So highly recommend listening to one of those pep talks or following her, her platform in whatever way.
[00:43:45] Missy: Yeah. She’s really great. And that’s it. We should have her on
[00:43:48] Susanne: I know. I know. We totally should. We had someone, we had another guest who mentioned her before and it’s just one of those things that I’m so grateful for the guests that we have on and that’s why I love this segment so much is because it just seems like obviously our paths should have crossed like a hundred times that we have these interests and we had never heard of her until then.
So we’re so
[00:44:08] Jess: totally. Yes, yes. We’ll definitely reach out to her and, you know, tell her I sent you, among others.
[00:44:14] Susanne: Oh yay.
[00:44:15] Jess: to feature.
[00:44:16] Susanne: Oh, awesome. Thank
[00:44:17] Jess: So look and listen and Learning. Ooh, yeah, what am I learning? This is a great one. You know, I’ve been, I’m inspired to learn more about what, um, Melinda French Gates is doing with her philanthropy.
I’m sure you saw this major announcement, right, a day or two ago that, um, Um, she left the Gates Foundation, is now dedicating a billion dollars to organizations that are supporting women and families. And I am really drawn to just the way she’s framing this as such a critical moment. And she had this one line in, in kind of her announcement about how it’s, it’s hard to believe, but her granddaughter, her one year old granddaughter may grow up with less rights than she had.
And, um, yeah, so I’m just feeling inspired to learn more about the work that she’s doing and the moment that is inspiring that work.
[00:45:13] Missy: Oh, I kind of gave me a flutter. It’s so, it’s so true. We have such an obligation to young women because as it stands. They’re, they’re in a world of hurt with what’s going on and it’s up to us to fix this.
[00:45:26] Susanne: Yes. What about you, Missy? You look less than learning?
[00:45:32] Missy: yeah, nothing as, um, important as what you guys are look, listening, learning.
[00:45:37] Susanne: We don’t judge here.
[00:45:39] Missy: yeah, right. Uh, I am reading this. I just have the dust jacket in here, but lay your body down. If you have some religious trauma, I don’t know if it’s the one for you. It’s fiction. and it’s suspenseful. It’s kind of got a mystery to it.
Um, Um, is really good so far, um, but definitely brings up some of that old church crap that is lingering. but yeah, it’s a good read. So I recommend that one. Um, and on my listen, I want to give another shout out to sociopath. We talked about it in our episode with Jennifer King Lindley, Suzanne’s read it or listen to it.
I believe I’m listening to it. Um, and I take little breaks in my listens, um, but it’s so interesting. So just another shout out. It’s fascinating. Look at. Someone who understands they are a sociopath. It’s really amazing. Um, but one of the other things I’m listening to is I’ve been listening just to my favorites playlist, um, that Apple will just make you, you know, a playlist of everything you’ve ever favorited.
And I am learning that like every other song is a Taylor Swift song. No shade. Love T Swift, clearly. But so my goal this summer is maybe branch out and find some new music, but it’ll be very funny because it’ll be like, song, Taylor Swift. Song by someone else, Taylor Swift. Song by Taylor Swift. She’s just constant and my favorite.
Um, if you have new ideas for me, send them to me. I am looking for some new music, a little branch out. Um, and my learn is I’ve been learning not to do, but Graston technique. Which is described as instrument assisted massage and soft tissue
[00:47:13] Susanne: we’re not X rated, Missy.
[00:47:16] Missy: I know it sounds gross. Um, but I, my shoulder or my posture has been really terrible since I had surgery last year.
And ever since then, my posture has just been crap. I had a, a bilateral mastectomy for those who don’t know. And so it just changed the way I hold myself and I fold up a little bit, I guess. And so my, And I’m sure, yes, there’s like pulling and it impacts everything, like it pulls my ribs and so it has really caused some back and shoulder like scapular pain, um, that I was trying to manage myself for the longest time thinking, I have the tools, I know what I’m doing, I can stretch and roll and do all of this.
Well, I could not. I got to the point where I was in constant pain. Um, But the short version of Graston is I have a bruise on my back right now that is like prohibiting the wearing of most tank tops. And when I’m like, people who have seen it are like, Oh my God, what happened to you? Um,
[00:48:10] Susanne: Is it like one of those cupping bruises?
[00:48:12] Missy: No, like I, I’ve had the cupping bruises before and those don’t really hurt. You know, they just look funny. This, like, it’s a metal tool that she like slathers cocoa butter on me and then takes this tool and gets into the tissue. And. She said she was like, like it, you know, your, the blood comes to the surface kind of like, you know, you can see your skin turning red and she was like this side like the blood really came to the surface and she’s like, You may have some bruising.
She was not kidding. I feel so much better. I can move my like my scapulas are moving and I feel a ton better and I’m loosening up but this bruises. Not cute. So I don’t want to scare people from trying it because my son had it done on his leg. That’s why I ended up making an appointment with her, but he had it done, just for like a nagging, some nagging leg pain and no bruising at all for him.
And, but it, It was almost automatic relief, like it really breaks up all that stuff that just locks up in there. so
[00:49:10] Jess: Missy, and I can’t help but think because of the Taylor Swift reference, right, and this, you know, posture, have you tried the viral posture sports bra?
[00:49:20] Missy: I have not, it was so funny because just Monday I was hanging out with friends. It was Memorial Day and so we were in swimsuits and they were like, Uh huh, what is going on with your back? And, um, So we were talking about it and somebody said, you need Taylor’s bra and I’m like, I need Taylor’s bra
[00:49:37] Susanne: has a bra?
[00:49:38] Missy: or well, they advertise it like all the, it pops up in the social media will be somebody saying, I tried Taylor Swift’s, you know, bra, whatever it’s, it is supposed to help you pull your shoulders back
[00:49:49] Susanne: As I’m like, what?
[00:49:50] Jess: Yeah, I know.
You’re, but yeah, it’s like a posture correcting bra that I think she was, pictures were taken of her in it or whatever. So people now know she wore it. So it’s gotten very popular.
[00:50:01] Missy: Yeah, because I guess she had gotten kind of rounded and so she used it to straighten up. But yeah, I need to order it because I think it might be the ticket. But yeah, I catch myself all day, every day. I’m like, oh, I’m folded up again in this little,
[00:50:14] Susanne: Oh, it’s so easy to do. It is
[00:50:17] Missy: It
[00:50:17] Susanne: easy to do.
[00:50:18] Missy: Well, we’ve talked about so many times on the show, we’ve talked about how as women, as girls, we kind of fold in when we start to develop breasts, like you’re, you kind of hide them.
And I, it’s counterintuitive to me now that I don’t have them that I wouldn’t just stand up straight. Like I’m not trying to, I don’t know,
[00:50:36] Susanne: popping the girls out?
[00:50:37] Missy: Yeah. Like I don’t know. It’s weird. You would think it would not be hard to stand up straight. You would think it would make it easier, but I think it just messed with all the muscles and some of that, just the connection, like nerve connections and stuff.
Like everything’s just
[00:50:50] Susanne: Yeah, you can’t just get rid of almost 50 years of mental training to do that. And then also, yeah, your body is, your body is fighting against you. So I’m so glad that you have found this technique that’s helping. And maybe the Taylor
[00:51:03] Missy: my arsenal. Yeah, the tailor bra just might be it. Might be the final piece of the puzzle.
[00:51:09] Susanne: It all comes back to Taylor Swift, I
[00:51:11] Missy: It does. It does. She rules the world.
[00:51:15] Susanne: Oh, if, does she have a song called Leap, then we could really tie it
[00:51:18] Missy: Oh, I don’t think
[00:51:20] Jess: don’t think so.
[00:51:21] Susanne: Dang it. Okay, maybe that’s the next album. It should be out in probably three weeks, the way, the
[00:51:25] Missy: Right.
[00:51:25] Susanne: she goes.
[00:51:27] Missy: I know. That she has written while also doing a world tour and, you know.
[00:51:30] Susanne: Yeah, exactly. Oh, well, it was such a pleasure meeting you and so excited that this book is out now, even though it was not out for us 18 years ago when we need it, but it’s never too late.
So we’re grateful for everybody who can use it now and for your podcast and all the other gifts that you’re giving to the world.
Thank you. You’re just every, every person that we can, every mom that we can help. Move to that next step and enjoy her life a little bit more is all the better for her family, her kids, everybody around her. It’s an inspiration to everyone. So we are grateful for everything that you do.
[00:52:09] Jess: Thank you. And likewise.
[00:52:10] Missy: thank you for being here, and have a great afternoon.
[00:52:13] Susanne: Have a great day.
[00:52:15] Jess: both. Great to be here.
[00:52:16] Susanne: Okay. Bye
[00:52:17] Missy: Bye.
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