60. Experience, Science, Christianity (w/ Rafe Kelley)

I'm joined by Doug Scott, LCSW, to discuss his SH!PS approach to interpersonal transformation and development. Doug is a clinical social worker with a background in ministry and has worked as a mental health counselor since 2001. Here we discuss the common pattern Doug has abstracted from his counseling and pastoral experience for achieving growth and connection, uniting spiritual and mental health perspectives. 0:00 Introduction 1:26 Doug's Story 6:47 A Praxis for Development and Transformation The SH!PS Approach 12:18 (I)nterview: Perspective-Taking 21:32 (S)olidarity: We're All in this Together 27:27 (H)ope: Cultivating Aspirational Purpose 56:55 (P)rocess: Honoring the Way Things Become 1:03:22 (S)ervice: How to Human Better 1:11:24 Conclusion

Gregg Henriques and I talk about the release of his new book UTOK: The Unified Theory of Knowledge through Sky Meadow Press. We discuss how this book is different from other works Gregg has written, its aesthetic nod to the classic alchemical tradition, and the arc of his journey from hard-nosed materialism to metamodern metatheoretical mythopoeia. We talk about UTOK through the lens of personal mythology and religio and the grand takeaway about the nature of meaning and the sacred from such a system. The book is available at https://www.skymeadowinstitute.org/press 0:00 Introduction 0:28 UTOK: The Unified Theory of Knowledge Published by Sky Meadow Press 2:56 An Accessible, Aesthetic Primer for UTOK 6:32 Big Picture Thinking and Metamodern Alchemy 16:27 From Modern Materialist Reductionism to Metamodern Emergent Mythos 22:20 Life and Calling: Personal Myth and "Building the Cathedral" 27:08 Avoiding the Pitfalls of Imaginal/Archetypal Projects 34:10 Relating to Meaning and the Sacred 38:32 Mythos and Logos: Waking up to a New Worldview 44:21 Ritual and Praxis in a Time Between Worlds 48:07 UTOK as Framework for Religio 50:44 Mythopoeia admidst the Desire for Tradition 56:46 UTOK...? So What? The Miracle of Self Knowing the World 1:07:09 Conclusion

Process thinker Matt Segall joins me again to continue our ongoing metaphysical exploration of a panmatheistic universe coming to self-knowledge. Here we discuss modern science's "blind spot" with regard to direct experience vs. scientific abstraction and the problem of "misplaced concreteness" before considering the proper understanding of the role of the human in the cosmos. 0:00 Introduction 2:02 "The Blind Spot": Mistaking Scientific Models for Reality 12:59 The Limits of Abstraction: From Idea to Feeling 34:18 Learning as Movement from Concrete to Abstract 46:00 Quantum Mechanics, Misplaced Concreteness, and Conceptual Prehension 58:16 The Will of the Universe to Wake Up: Towards Anthropos + Christ 1:11:03 Towards a 360° Platonism 1:20:50 Art, Incarnation, and the Face of God 1:33:09 Next Questions

Rafe Kelley and I discuss his recent transformational experiences with Christianity, then consider the best sense-making frames for such life-altering religious experiences. What are the role of Christianity's traditional propositional claims relative to direct experiential encounters with the Christ archetype? Can the activation of transformational memetic archetypes actually require acting "as if" some false claims are true? 0:00 Introduction 2:06 Character: Who Do You Want to Be? 7:08 Rafe's Background 30:35 The Christian Lure in the West 49:56 Mythos and Logos 1:03:25 Rafe's Conversion 1:16:45 Experience vs. Theology 1:26:17 Faith and the Transhistorical 1:39:22 Toggling into the Christ Archetype 1:47:17 Metamemes, Consciousness, and Believing "As If" 1:57:18 Building the Cathedral 2:03:58 Conclusion

Neil Theise joins me to talk about his book Notes on Complexity: A Scientific Theory of Connection, Consciousness, and Being. As a liver pathologist gazing daily through his microscope, Neil lives in an ongoing liminal state between scales: the micro cellular and the macro organismic. How is it, he asks, that any given "thing" seems to disappear when you zoom in or out? Neil brings a complexity science lens to this issue of lensing, which he synthesizes with his longterm practice of Zen meditation to interesting conclusions. Is this processual "no-thing-ness" what the Buddhists speak of as "emptiness"? What is the "I" if it can be similarly deconstructed? What insights can meditation add to the metaphysical picture once we appreciate the limits of other ways of knowing? 0:00 Introduction 0:57 Spark-'Notes on Complexity' 4:30 Neil's Interdisciplinary Background 14:33 Body or Cells? Scale, Process, and (Relative) No-Thing-ness 40:29 "Self" and Complimentarity 50:03 Self and the Limits of Science: Consciousness and Quantum Physics 56:24 Self and the Limits of Mathematics: Incompleteness and Intuition 1:08:45 Can Meditative Practice Reveal Metaphysical Realities? 1:26:51 No Separation

Philosopher and author Tim Freke joins me to talk about his conceptions of an "emergent spirituality." We discuss his 2017 book Soul Story, in which he lays out a vision for a developing cosmos leading to deeper self-realization. From there we discuss his thinking about the continuation of imaginal phenomena after the biological death of the individual. 0:00 Introduction 1:22 Soul Story and Emergent Spirituality 8:56 Is Consciousness Fundamental? Tim's Recent Move to Emergentism 9:25 card to Tim's video on emergentism of consciousness 19:59 The Profound Meaning within Emergentism 26:02 Psyche after Death? 36:11 Imaginal Information in an Inforverse 48:52 God as Real Dream: Temporal Holonic Emergence 56:57 Soul and the Redemption of Suffering 1:01:34 A New Understanding 1:05:57 Praxis: "Why Your Life Really Matters" 1:11:30 Conclusion

Layman Pascal joins me to discuss his new book, Gurdjieff for a Time Between Worlds. Who was G. I. Gurdjieff and why is he keenly relevant to our present metamodern moment? In what ways can we see in his work anticipations of contemporary spiritual modalities, such as sincere irony, integration of pluralities, immanent transcendence, and the mythopoeic construction of new imaginal narratives gesturing beyond modernity? With classic flare and verbal acuity, Layman unpacks his "hyperpersonal essays for the grandfather of metamodern spirituality." 0:00 Introduction 1:38 Who was G. I. Gurdjieff? 5:21 Gurdjieff and Metamodernity 9:29 "The Sly Man": Serious Play, Sincere Irony, Crazy Wisdom 20:04 Integrating Pluralities 31:04 Gurdjieff the Shamanoid 36:51 Real vs. Imaginal Mythos 51:35 Eso-, Meso-, Exo-teric 56:31 Pascal's Imaginal Gurdjieff? 1:05:25 Transcendent Immanence Get the book here: https://www.skymeadowinstitute.org/press

Catechism has meant "religious education," especially as a coming-of-age initiation into the fullness of spiritual community and engagement with its mysteries. It has to do with what sort of support and instruction young people and converts receive about their faith as they move into deeper spiritual relationship with God and church. Here I ask, What would a supportive catechism look like for Christians on the path towards a metamodern form of faith? How might religious learning unfold in healthy and sustainable ways such as would foster a kind of Christianity that is truly metamodern in outlook? What are the right developmental moments for literalism, doubt, even atheism, and conviction? 0:00 An Education for Faith 1:55 Grades or Phases of Spiritual Learning 4:32 Age 0-7*: Childhood Enchantment 9:20 Age 7-10: Mythic Literalism 15:12 Age 10-13: Symbolic Belief 21:03 Age 13-15: Reflective Religion 26:24 Age 15-18: Rational Meaning-Making 29:28 Age 18-23: Deconstructive Questioning 41:33 Age 23-27: Integrative Wisdom 50:13 What's Missing? 54:13 Invitation to Keep Learning *All ages are just rough approximations

Who is the Christ of faith? What if he is the telos of existence itself? the direction to which all of thought and action tend? What if Christ Consciousness is the goal of a more comprehensive, open, de-centered, contextualized, and other-sensitive perspective? What if we (you and me) actually participate in the unfolding of God in the world?... 0:00 "After Deconstruction Must Come Reconstruction" 6:34 Metamodernism and Relating to the Christ of Faith 9:18 Moving Beyond Postmodern Relativistic Perspectivalism 19:43 Metamodernism: Seeing the Pattern of Perspectives 34:28 Christ as the Aim of Sacred History 48:13 "Christ" as Expanding Consciousness 54:10 Idols vs. Icons: The Death and Resurrection of "God" 1:00:19 Metamodern Informed Naivete 1:03:07 Forking the Lightning of God

To get beyond the enduring impasse of the "science vs. religion" debate, let's give science its due—and then leave it in the dust! There's no need to affirm the historical basis of the Christian story to relate to the Christ of faith. If we can accept that the Gospels are prehistorical materials, we can get beyond the classic hangups and begin to see how "it's all made up" AND "it's all real!" are both true simultaneously. Here I frame the current debates around history and religion in light of the "pre/trans fallacy" so well described by integral theory. This framing, I think, helps position us to appreciate what a truly metamodern Christianity can look like. By accepting the historical Jesus account, we are freed to embrace the Christ of faith and tradition—not in spite of the facts, but because we have transcended them. 0:00 Introduction 2:01 Moving Beyond History 4:20 The Pre/Trans Fallacy 8:31 "Trans-" Demonstrates Capacity and Transformation 13:56 The Gospels and the History of History 21:05 Christianity and the Fallacy of Origins 24:38 Transcending the Claims History Makes on Us 39:11 Cultural Metamodernism and the Transhistorical 46:41 Owning Deconstruction without Equivocation 54:41 The Growth Edge of Christianity 56:31 Conclusion