Machine Learning Street Talk (MLST)

"What is life?" - asks Chris Kempes, a professor at the Santa Fe Institute.Chris explains that scientists are moving beyond a purely Earth-based, biological view and are searching for a universal theory of life that could apply to anything, anywhere in the universe. He proposes that things we don't normally consider "alive"—like human culture, language, or even artificial intelligence; could be seen as life forms existing on different "substrates".To understand this, Chris presents a fascinating three-level framework:- Materials: The physical stuff life is made of. He argues this could be incredibly diverse across the universe, and we shouldn't expect alien life to share our biochemistry.- Constraints: The universal laws of physics (like gravity or diffusion) that all life must obey, regardless of what it's made of. This is where different life forms start to look more similar.- Principles: At the highest level are abstract principles like evolution and learning. Chris suggests these computational or "optimization" rules are what truly define a living system.A key idea is "convergence" – using the example of the eye. It's such a complex organ that you'd think it evolved only once. However, eyes evolved many separate times across different species. This is because the physics of light provides a clear "target", and evolution found similar solutions to the problem of seeing, even with different starting materials.**SPONSOR MESSAGES**—Prolific - Quality data. From real people. For faster breakthroughs.https://www.prolific.com/?utm_source=mlst—Check out NotebookLM from Google here - https://notebooklm.google.com/ - it’s really good for doing research directly from authoritative source material, minimising hallucinations. —cyber•Fund https://cyber.fund/?utm_source=mlst is a founder-led investment firm accelerating the cybernetic economyHiring a SF VC Principal: https://talent.cyber.fund/companies/cyber-fund-2/jobs/57674170-ai-investment-principal#content?utm_source=mlstSubmit investment deck: https://cyber.fund/contact?utm_source=mlst— Prof. Chris Kempes:https://www.santafe.edu/people/profile/chris-kempesTRANSCRIPT:https://app.rescript.info/public/share/Y2cI1i0nX_-iuZitvlguHvaVLQTwPX1Y_E1EHxV0i9ITOC:00:00:00 - Introduction to Chris Kempes and the Santa Fe Institute00:02:28 - The Three Cultures of Science00:05:08 - What Makes a Good Scientific Theory?00:06:50 - The Universal Theory of Life00:09:40 - The Role of Material in Life00:12:50 - A Hierarchy for Understanding Life00:13:55 - How Life Diversifies and Converges00:17:53 - Adaptive Processes and Defining Life00:19:28 - Functionalism, Memes, and Phylogenies00:22:58 - Convergence at Multiple Levels00:25:45 - The Possibility of Simulating Life00:28:16 - Intelligence, Parasitism, and Spectrums of Life00:32:39 - Phase Changes in Evolution00:36:16 - The Separation of Matter and Logic00:37:21 - Assembly Theory and Quantifying ComplexityREFS:Developing a predictive science of the biosphere requires the integration of scientific cultures [Kempes et al]https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2209196121Seeing with an extra sense (“Dangerous prediction”) [Rob Phillips]https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982224009035 The Multiple Paths to Multiple Life [Christopher P. Kempes & David C. Krakauer]https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00239-021-10016-2 The Information Theory of Individuality [David Krakauer et al]https://arxiv.org/abs/1412.2447Minds, Brains and Programs [Searle]https://home.csulb.edu/~cwallis/382/readings/482/searle.minds.brains.programs.bbs.1980.pdf The error thresholdhttps://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0168170204003843Assembly theory and its relationship with computational complexity [Kempes et al]https://arxiv.org/abs/2406.12176

Blaise Agüera y Arcas explores some mind-bending ideas about what intelligence and life really are—and why they might be more similar than we think (filmed at ALIFE conference, 2025 - https://2025.alife.org/).Life and intelligence are both fundamentally computational (he says). From the very beginning, living things have been running programs. Your DNA? It's literally a computer program, and the ribosomes in your cells are tiny universal computers building you according to those instructions.**SPONSOR MESSAGES**—Prolific - Quality data. From real people. For faster breakthroughs.https://www.prolific.com/?utm_source=mlst—cyber•Fund https://cyber.fund/?utm_source=mlst is a founder-led investment firm accelerating the cybernetic economyOct SF conference - https://dagihouse.com/?utm_source=mlst - Joscha Bach keynoting(!) + OAI, Anthropic, NVDA,++Hiring a SF VC Principal: https://talent.cyber.fund/companies/cyber-fund-2/jobs/57674170-ai-investment-principal#content?utm_source=mlstSubmit investment deck: https://cyber.fund/contact?utm_source=mlst— Blaise argues that there is more to evolution than random mutations (like most people think). The secret to increasing complexity is *merging* i.e. when different organisms or systems come together and combine their histories and capabilities.Blaise describes his "BFF" experiment where random computer code spontaneously evolved into self-replicating programs, showing how purpose and complexity can emerge from pure randomness through computational processes.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaise_Ag%C3%BCera_y_Arcashttps://x.com/blaiseaguera?lang=enTRANSCRIPT:https://app.rescript.info/public/share/VX7Gktfr3_wIn4Bj7cl9StPBO1MN4R5lcJ11NE99hLgTOC:00:00:00 Introduction - New book "What is Intelligence?"00:01:45 Life as computation - Von Neumann's insights00:12:00 BFF experiment - How purpose emerges00:26:00 Symbiogenesis and evolutionary complexity00:40:00 Functionalism and consciousness00:49:45 AI as part of collective human intelligence00:57:00 Comparing AI and human cognitionREFS:What is intelligence [Blaise Agüera y Arcas]https://whatisintelligence.antikythera.org/ [Read free online, interactive rich media]https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262049955/what-is-intelligence/ [MIT Press]Large Language Models and Emergence: A Complex Systems Perspectivehttps://arxiv.org/abs/2506.11135Our first Noam Chomsky MLST interviewhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axuGfh4UR9Q Chance and Necessity [Jacques Monod]https://monoskop.org/images/9/99/Monod_Jacques_Chance_and_Necessity.pdfWonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the History of Nature [Stephen Jay Gould]https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wonderful-Life-Burgess-Nature-History/dp/0099273454 The major evolutionary transitions [E Szathmáry, J M Smith]https://wiki.santafe.edu/images/0/0e/Szathmary.MaynardSmith_1995_Nature.pdfDon't Sleep, There Are Snakes: Life and Language in the Amazonian Jungle [Dan Everett]https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Sleep-There-Are-Snakes/dp/0307386120 The Nature of Technology: What It Is and How It Evolves [W. Brian Arthur] https://www.amazon.com/Nature-Technology-What-How-Evolves-ebook/dp/B002RI9W16/ The MANIAC [Benjamin Labatut]https://www.amazon.com/MANIAC-Benjam%C3%ADn-Labatut/dp/1782279814 When We Cease to Understand the World [Benjamin Labatut]https://www.amazon.com/When-We-Cease-Understand-World/dp/1681375664/ The Boys in the Boat [Dan Brown]https://www.amazon.com/Boys-Boat-Americans-Berlin-Olympics/dp/0143125478 [Petter Johansson] (Split brain)https://www.lucs.lu.se/fileadmin/user_upload/lucs/2011/01/Johansson-et-al.-2006-How-Something-Can-Be-Said-About-Telling-More-Than-We-Can-Know.pdfIf Anyone Builds It, Everyone Dies [Eliezer Yudkowsky, Nate Soares]https://www.amazon.com/Anyone-Builds-Everyone-Dies-Superhuman/dp/0316595640 The science of cycologyhttps://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.3758/bf03195929.pdf <trunc, see YT desc for more>

We sat down with Sara Saab (VP of Product at Prolific) and Enzo Blindow (VP of Data and AI at Prolific) to explore the critical role of human evaluation in AI development and the challenges of aligning AI systems with human values. Prolific is a human annotation and orchestration platform for AI used by many of the major AI labs. This is a sponsored show in partnership with Prolific. **SPONSOR MESSAGES**—cyber•Fund https://cyber.fund/?utm_source=mlst is a founder-led investment firm accelerating the cybernetic economyOct SF conference - https://dagihouse.com/?utm_source=mlst - Joscha Bach keynoting(!) + OAI, Anthropic, NVDA,++Hiring a SF VC Principal: https://talent.cyber.fund/companies/cyber-fund-2/jobs/57674170-ai-investment-principal#content?utm_source=mlstSubmit investment deck: https://cyber.fund/contact?utm_source=mlst— While technologists want to remove humans from the loop for speed and efficiency, these non-deterministic AI systems actually require more human oversight than ever before. Prolific's approach is to put "well-treated, verified, diversely demographic humans behind an API" - making human feedback as accessible as any other infrastructure service.When AI models like Grok 4 achieve top scores on technical benchmarks but feel awkward or problematic to use in practice, it exposes the limitations of our current evaluation methods. The guests argue that optimizing for benchmarks may actually weaken model performance in other crucial areas, like cultural sensitivity or natural conversation.We also discuss Anthropic's research showing that frontier AI models, when given goals and access to information, independently arrived at solutions involving blackmail - without any prompting toward unethical behavior. Even more concerning, the more sophisticated the model, the more susceptible it was to this "agentic misalignment." Enzo and Sarah present Prolific's "Humane" leaderboard as an alternative to existing benchmarking systems. By stratifying evaluations across diverse demographic groups, they reveal that different populations have vastly different experiences with the same AI models. Looking ahead, the guests imagine a world where humans take on coaching and teaching roles for AI systems - similar to how we might correct a child or review code. This also raises important questions about working conditions and the evolution of labor in an AI-augmented world. Rather than replacing humans entirely, we may be moving toward more sophisticated forms of human-AI collaboration.As AI tech becomes more powerful and general-purpose, the quality of human evaluation becomes more critical, not less. We need more representative evaluation frameworks that capture the messy reality of human values and cultural diversity. Visit Prolific: https://www.prolific.com/Sara Saab (VP Product):https://uk.linkedin.com/in/sarasaabEnzo Blindow (VP Data & AI):https://uk.linkedin.com/in/enzoblindowTRANSCRIPT:https://app.rescript.info/public/share/xZ31-0kJJ_xp4zFSC-bunC8-hJNkHpbm7Lg88RFcuLETOC:[00:00:00] Intro & Background[00:03:16] Human-in-the-Loop Challenges[00:17:19] Can AIs Understand?[00:32:02] Benchmarking & Vibes[00:51:00] Agentic Misalignment Study[01:03:00] Data Quality vs Quantity[01:16:00] Future of AI OversightREFS:Anthropic Agentic Misalignmenthttps://www.anthropic.com/research/agentic-misalignmentValue Compasshttps://arxiv.org/pdf/2409.09586Reasoning Models Don’t Always Say What They Think (Anthropic)https://www.anthropic.com/research/reasoning-models-dont-say-think https://assets.anthropic.com/m/71876fabef0f0ed4/original/reasoning_models_paper.pdfApollo research - science of evals blog posthttps://www.apolloresearch.ai/blog/we-need-a-science-of-evals Leaderboard Illusion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W_OhS38rIE MLST videoThe Leaderboard Illusion [2025]Shivalika Singh et alhttps://arxiv.org/abs/2504.20879(Truncated, full list on YT)

Dr. Ilia Shumailov - Former DeepMind AI Security Researcher, now building security tools for AI agentsEver wondered what happens when AI agents start talking to each other—or worse, when they start breaking things? Ilia Shumailov spent years at DeepMind thinking about exactly these problems, and he's here to explain why securing AI is way harder than you think.**SPONSOR MESSAGES**—Check out notebooklm for your research project, it's really powerfulhttps://notebooklm.google.com/—Take the Prolific human data survey - https://www.prolific.com/humandatasurvey?utm_source=mlst and be the first to see the results and benchmark their practices against the wider community!—cyber•Fund https://cyber.fund/?utm_source=mlst is a founder-led investment firm accelerating the cybernetic economyOct SF conference - https://dagihouse.com/?utm_source=mlst - Joscha Bach keynoting(!) + OAI, Anthropic, NVDA,++Hiring a SF VC Principal: https://talent.cyber.fund/companies/cyber-fund-2/jobs/57674170-ai-investment-principal#content?utm_source=mlstSubmit investment deck: https://cyber.fund/contact?utm_source=mlst— We're racing toward a world where AI agents will handle our emails, manage our finances, and interact with sensitive data 24/7. But there is a problem. These agents are nothing like human employees. They never sleep, they can touch every endpoint in your system simultaneously, and they can generate sophisticated hacking tools in seconds. Traditional security measures designed for humans simply won't work.Dr. Ilia Shumailovhttps://x.com/iliaishackedhttps://iliaishacked.github.io/https://sequrity.ai/TRANSCRIPT:https://app.rescript.info/public/share/dVGsk8dz9_V0J7xMlwguByBq1HXRD6i4uC5z5r7EVGMTOC:00:00:00 - Introduction & Trusted Third Parties via ML00:03:45 - Background & Career Journey00:06:42 - Safety vs Security Distinction00:09:45 - Prompt Injection & Model Capability00:13:00 - Agents as Worst-Case Adversaries00:15:45 - Personal AI & CAML System Defense00:19:30 - Agents vs Humans: Threat Modeling00:22:30 - Calculator Analogy & Agent Behavior00:25:00 - IMO Math Solutions & Agent Thinking00:28:15 - Diffusion of Responsibility & Insider Threats00:31:00 - Open Source Security Concerns00:34:45 - Supply Chain Attacks & Trust Issues00:39:45 - Architectural Backdoors00:44:00 - Academic Incentives & Defense Work00:48:30 - Semantic Censorship & Halting Problem00:52:00 - Model Collapse: Theory & Criticism00:59:30 - Career Advice & Ross Anderson TributeREFS:Lessons from Defending Gemini Against Indirect Prompt Injectionshttps://arxiv.org/abs/2505.14534Defeating Prompt Injections by Design. Debenedetti, E., Shumailov, I., Fan, T., Hayes, J., Carlini, N., Fabian, D., Kern, C., Shi, C., Terzis, A., & Tramèr, F. https://arxiv.org/pdf/2503.18813Agentic Misalignment: How LLMs could be insider threatshttps://www.anthropic.com/research/agentic-misalignmentSTOP ANTHROPOMORPHIZING INTERMEDIATE TOKENS AS REASONING/THINKING TRACES!Subbarao Kambhampati et alhttps://arxiv.org/pdf/2504.09762Meiklejohn, S., Blauzvern, H., Maruseac, M., Schrock, S., Simon, L., & Shumailov, I. (2025). Machine learning models have a supply chain problem. https://arxiv.org/abs/2505.22778 Gao, Y., Shumailov, I., & Fawaz, K. (2025). Supply-chain attacks in machine learning frameworks. https://openreview.net/pdf?id=EH5PZW6aCrApache Log4j Vulnerability Guidancehttps://www.cisa.gov/news-events/news/apache-log4j-vulnerability-guidance Bober-Irizar, M., Shumailov, I., Zhao, Y., Mullins, R., & Papernot, N. (2022). Architectural backdoors in neural networks. https://arxiv.org/pdf/2206.07840Position: Fundamental Limitations of LLM Censorship Necessitate New ApproachesDavid Glukhov, Ilia Shumailov, ...https://proceedings.mlr.press/v235/glukhov24a.html AlphaEvolve MLST interview [Matej Balog, Alexander Novikov]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC9nAosXrJw

We need AI systems to synthesise new knowledge, not just compress the data they see. Jeremy Berman, is a research scientist at Reflection AI and recent winner of the ARC-AGI v2 public leaderboard.**SPONSOR MESSAGES**—Take the Prolific human data survey - https://www.prolific.com/humandatasurvey?utm_source=mlst and be the first to see the results and benchmark their practices against the wider community!—cyber•Fund https://cyber.fund/?utm_source=mlst is a founder-led investment firm accelerating the cybernetic economyOct SF conference - https://dagihouse.com/?utm_source=mlst - Joscha Bach keynoting(!) + OAI, Anthropic, NVDA,++Hiring a SF VC Principal: https://talent.cyber.fund/companies/cyber-fund-2/jobs/57674170-ai-investment-principal#content?utm_source=mlstSubmit investment deck: https://cyber.fund/contact?utm_source=mlst— Imagine trying to teach an AI to think like a human i.e. solving puzzles that are easy for us but stump even the smartest models. Jeremy's evolutionary approach—evolving natural language descriptions instead of python code like his last version—landed him at the top with about 30% accuracy on the ARCv2.We discuss why current AIs are like "stochastic parrots" that memorize but struggle to truly reason or innovate as well as big ideas like building "knowledge trees" for real understanding, the limits of neural networks versus symbolic systems, and whether we can train models to synthesize new ideas without forgetting everything else. Jeremy Berman:https://x.com/jerber888TRANSCRIPT:https://app.rescript.info/public/share/qvCioZeZJ4Q_NlR66m-hNUZnh-qWlUJcS15Wc2OGwD0TOC:Introduction and Overview [00:00:00]ARC v1 Solution [00:07:20]Evolutionary Python Approach [00:08:00]Trade-offs in Depth vs. Breadth [00:10:33]ARC v2 Improvements [00:11:45]Natural Language Shift [00:12:35]Model Thinking Enhancements [00:13:05]Neural Networks vs. Symbolism Debate [00:14:24]Turing Completeness Discussion [00:15:24]Continual Learning Challenges [00:19:12]Reasoning and Intelligence [00:29:33]Knowledge Trees and Synthesis [00:50:15]Creativity and Invention [00:56:41]Future Directions and Closing [01:02:30]REFS:Jeremy’s 2024 article on winning ARCAGI1-pubhttps://jeremyberman.substack.com/p/how-i-got-a-record-536-on-arc-agiGetting 50% (SoTA) on ARC-AGI with GPT-4o [Greenblatt]https://blog.redwoodresearch.org/p/getting-50-sota-on-arc-agi-with-gpt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9j3wB1RRGA [his MLST interview]A Thousand Brains: A New Theory of Intelligence [Hawkins]https://www.amazon.com/Thousand-Brains-New-Theory-Intelligence/dp/1541675819https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VQILbDqaI4 [MLST interview]Francois Chollet + Mike Knoop’s labhttps://ndea.com/On the Measure of Intelligence [Chollet]https://arxiv.org/abs/1911.01547On the Biology of a Large Language Model [Anthropic]https://transformer-circuits.pub/2025/attribution-graphs/biology.html The ARChitects [won 2024 ARC-AGI-1-private]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTX_sAq--zY Connectionism critique 1998 [Fodor/Pylshyn]https://uh.edu/~garson/F&P1.PDF Questioning Representational Optimism in Deep Learning: The Fractured Entangled Representation Hypothesis [Kumar/Stanley]https://arxiv.org/pdf/2505.11581 AlphaEvolve interview (also program synthesis)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC9nAosXrJw ShinkaEvolve: Evolving New Algorithms with LLMs, Orders of Magnitude More Efficiently [Lange et al]https://sakana.ai/shinka-evolve/ Deep learning with Python Rev 3 [Chollet] - READ CHAPTER 19 NOW!https://deeplearningwithpython.io/

Professor Andrew Wilson from NYU explains why many common-sense ideas in artificial intelligence might be wrong. For decades, the rule of thumb in machine learning has been to fear complexity. The thinking goes: if your model has too many parameters (is "too complex") for the amount of data you have, it will "overfit" by essentially memorizing the data instead of learning the underlying patterns. This leads to poor performance on new, unseen data. This is known as the classic "bias-variance trade-off" i.e. a balancing act between a model that's too simple and one that's too complex.**SPONSOR MESSAGES**—Tufa AI Labs is an AI research lab based in Zurich. **They are hiring ML research engineers!** This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to work with one of the best labs in EuropeContact Benjamin Crouzier - https://tufalabs.ai/ —Take the Prolific human data survey - https://www.prolific.com/humandatasurvey?utm_source=mlst and be the first to see the results and benchmark their practices against the wider community!—cyber•Fund https://cyber.fund/?utm_source=mlst is a founder-led investment firm accelerating the cybernetic economyOct SF conference - https://dagihouse.com/?utm_source=mlst - Joscha Bach keynoting(!) + OAI, Anthropic, NVDA,++Hiring a SF VC Principal: https://talent.cyber.fund/companies/cyber-fund-2/jobs/57674170-ai-investment-principal#content?utm_source=mlstSubmit investment deck: https://cyber.fund/contact?utm_source=mlst— Description Continued:Professor Wilson challenges this fundamental belief (fearing complexity). He makes a few surprising points:**Bigger Can Be Better**: massive models don't just get more flexible; they also develop a stronger "simplicity bias". So, if your model is overfitting, the solution might paradoxically be to make it even bigger.**The "Bias-Variance Trade-off" is a Misnomer**: Wilson claims you don't actually have to trade one for the other. You can have a model that is incredibly expressive and flexible while also being strongly biased toward simple solutions. He points to the "double descent" phenomenon, where performance first gets worse as models get more complex, but then surprisingly starts getting better again.**Honest Beliefs and Bayesian Thinking**: His core philosophy is that we should build models that honestly represent our beliefs about the world. We believe the world is complex, so our models should be expressive. But we also believe in Occam's razor—that the simplest explanation is often the best. He champions Bayesian methods, which naturally balance these two ideas through a process called marginalization, which he describes as an automatic Occam's razor.TOC:[00:00:00] Introduction and Thesis[00:04:19] Challenging Conventional Wisdom[00:11:17] The Philosophy of a Scientist-Engineer[00:16:47] Expressiveness, Overfitting, and Bias[00:28:15] Understanding, Compression, and Kolmogorov Complexity[01:05:06] The Surprising Power of Generalization[01:13:21] The Elegance of Bayesian Inference[01:33:02] The Geometry of Learning[01:46:28] Practical Advice and The Future of AIProf. Andrew Gordon Wilson:https://x.com/andrewgwilshttps://cims.nyu.edu/~andrewgw/https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=twWX2LIAAAAJ&hl=en https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aja0kZeWRy4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEp4TOrkwV4 TRANSCRIPT:https://app.rescript.info/public/share/H4Io1Y7Rr54MM05FuZgAv4yphoukCfkqokyzSYJwCK8Hosts:Dr. Tim Scarfe / Dr. Keith Duggar (MIT Ph.D)REFS:Deep Learning is Not So Mysterious or Different [Andrew Gordon Wilson]https://arxiv.org/abs/2503.02113Bayesian Deep Learning and a Probabilistic Perspective of Generalization [Andrew Gordon Wilson, Pavel Izmailov]https://arxiv.org/abs/2002.08791Compute-Optimal LLMs Provably Generalize Better With Scale [Marc Finzi, Sanyam Kapoor, Diego Granziol, Anming Gu, Christopher De Sa, J. Zico Kolter, Andrew Gordon Wilson]https://arxiv.org/abs/2504.15208

In this episode, hosts Tim and Keith finally realize their long-held dream of sitting down with their hero, the brilliant neuroscientist Professor Karl Friston. The conversation is a fascinating and mind-bending journey into Professor Friston's life's work, the Free Energy Principle, and what it reveals about life, intelligence, and consciousness itself.**SPONSORS**Gemini CLI is an open-source AI agent that brings the power of Gemini directly into your terminal - https://github.com/google-gemini/gemini-cli--- Take the Prolific human data survey - https://www.prolific.com/humandatasurvey?utm_source=mlst and be the first to see the results and benchmark their practices against the wider community!---cyber•Fund https://cyber.fund/?utm_source=mlst is a founder-led investment firm accelerating the cybernetic economyOct SF conference - https://dagihouse.com/?utm_source=mlst - Joscha Bach keynoting(!) + OAI, Anthropic, NVDA,++Hiring a SF VC Principal: https://talent.cyber.fund/companies/cyber-fund-2/jobs/57674170-ai-investment-principal#content?utm_source=mlstSubmit investment deck: https://cyber.fund/contact?utm_source=mlst***They kick things off by looking back on the 20-year journey of the Free Energy Principle. Professor Friston explains it as a fundamental rule for survival: all living things, from a single cell to a human being, are constantly trying to make sense of the world and reduce unpredictability. It’s this drive to minimize surprise that allows things to exist and maintain their structure.This leads to a bigger question: What does it truly mean to be "intelligent"? The group debates whether intelligence is everywhere, even in a virus or a plant, or if it requires a certain level of complexity. Professor Friston introduces the idea of different "kinds" of things, suggesting that creatures like us, who can model themselves and think about the future, possess a unique and "strange" kind of agency that sets us apart.From intelligence, the discussion naturally flows to the even trickier concept of consciousness. Is it the same as intelligence? Professor Friston argues they are different. He explains that consciousness might emerge from deep, layered self-awareness—not just acting, but understanding that you are the one causing your actions and thinking about your place in the world.They also explore intelligence at different sizes. Is a corporation intelligent? What about the entire planet? Professor Friston suggests there might be a "Goldilocks zone" for intelligence. It doesn't seem to exist at the super-tiny atomic level or at the massive scale of planets and solar systems, but thrives in the complex middle-ground where we live.Finally, they tackle one of the most pressing topics of our time: Can we build a truly conscious AI? Professor Friston shares his doubts about whether our current computers are capable of a feat like that. He suggests that genuine consciousness might require a different kind of "mortal" computation, where the machine's physical body and its "mind" are inseparable, much like in biological creatures.TRANSCRIPT:https://app.rescript.info/public/share/FZkF8BO7HMt9aFfu2_q69WGT_ZbYZ1VVkC6RtU3eeOITOC:00:00:00: Introduction & Retrospective on the Free Energy Principle00:09:34: Strange Particles, Agency, and Consciousness00:37:45: The Scale of Intelligence: From Viruses to the Biosphere01:01:35: Modelling, Boundaries, and Practical Application01:21:12: Conclusion

We are joined by Cristopher Moore, a professor at the Santa Fe Institute with a diverse background in physics, computer science, and machine learning.The conversation begins with Cristopher, who calls himself a "frog" explaining that he prefers to dive deep into specific, concrete problems rather than taking a high-level "bird's-eye view". They explore why current AI models, like transformers, are so surprisingly effective. Cristopher argues it's because the real world isn't random; it's full of rich structures, patterns, and hierarchies that these models can learn to exploit, even if we don't fully understand how.**SPONSORS**Take the Prolific human data survey - https://www.prolific.com/humandatasurvey?utm_source=mlst and be the first to see the results and benchmark their practices against the wider community!---cyber•Fund https://cyber.fund/?utm_source=mlst is a founder-led investment firm accelerating the cybernetic economy.Oct SF conference - https://dagihouse.com/?utm_source=mlst - Joscha Bach keynoting(!) + OAI, Anthropic, NVDA,++Hiring a SF VC Principal: https://talent.cyber.fund/companies/cyber-fund-2/jobs/57674170-ai-investment-principal#content?utm_source=mlstSubmit investment deck: https://cyber.fund/contact?utm_source=mlst***Cristopher Moore:https://sites.santafe.edu/~moore/TOC:00:00:00 - Introduction00:02:05 - Meet Christopher Moore: A Frog in the World of Science00:05:14 - The Limits of Transformers and Real-World Data00:11:19 - Intelligence as Creative Problem-Solving00:23:30 - Grounding, Meaning, and Shared Reality00:31:09 - The Nature of Creativity and Aesthetics00:44:31 - Computational Irreducibility and Universality00:53:06 - Turing Completeness, Recursion, and Intelligence01:11:26 - The Universe Through a Computational Lens01:26:45 - Algorithmic Justice and the Need for TransparencyTRANSCRIPT: https://app.rescript.info/public/share/VRe2uQSvKZOm0oIBoDsrNwt46OMCqRnShVnUF3qyoFkFilmed at DISI (Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute)https://disi.org/REFS:The Nature of computation [Chris Moore]https://nature-of-computation.org/ Birds and Frogs [Freeman Dyson]https://www.ams.org/notices/200902/rtx090200212p.pdf Replica Theory [Parisi et al]https://arxiv.org/pdf/1409.2722 Janossy pooling [Fabian Fuchs]https://fabianfuchsml.github.io/equilibriumaggregation/ Cracking the cryptic [YT channel]https://www.youtube.com/c/CrackingTheCrypticSudoko Bench [Sakana]https://sakana.ai/sudoku-bench/Fractured entangled representations “phylogenetic locking in comment” [Kumar/Stanley]https://arxiv.org/pdf/2505.11581 (see our shows on this)The War Against Cliché: [Martin Amis]https://www.amazon.com/War-Against-Cliche-Reviews-1971-2000/dp/0375727167Rule 110 (CA)https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Rule150.htmlUniversality in Elementary Cellular Automata [Matt Cooke]https://wpmedia.wolfram.com/sites/13/2018/02/15-1-1.pdf Small Semi-Weakly Universal Turing Machines [Damien Woods] https://tilde.ini.uzh.ch/users/tneary/public_html/WoodsNeary-FI09.pdf COMPUTING MACHINERY AND INTELLIGENCE [Turing, 1950]https://courses.cs.umbc.edu/471/papers/turing.pdf Comment on Space Time as a causal set [Moore, 88]https://sites.santafe.edu/~moore/comment.pdf Recursion Theory on the Reals and Continuous-time Computation [Moore, 96]

Dr. Michael Timothy Bennett is a computer scientist who's deeply interested in understanding artificial intelligence, consciousness, and what it means to be alive. He's known for his provocative paper "What the F*** is Artificial Intelligence" which challenges conventional thinking about AI and intelligence.**SPONSOR MESSAGES***Prolific: Quality data. From real people. For faster breakthroughs.https://prolific.com/mlst?utm_campaign=98404559-MLST&utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=mb***Michael takes us on a journey through some of the biggest questions in AI and consciousness. He starts by exploring what intelligence actually is - settling on the idea that it's about "adaptation with limited resources" (a definition from researcher Pei Wang that he particularly likes).The discussion ranges from technical AI concepts to philosophical questions about consciousness, with Michael offering fresh perspectives that challenge Silicon Valley's "just scale it up" approach to AI. He argues that true intelligence isn't just about having more parameters or data - it's about being able to adapt efficiently, like biological systems do.TOC:1. Introduction & Paper Overview [00:01:34]2. Definitions of Intelligence [00:02:54]3. Formal Models (AIXI, Active Inference) [00:07:06]4. Causality, Abstraction & Embodiment [00:10:45]5. Computational Dualism & Mortal Computation [00:25:51]6. Modern AI, AGI Progress & Benchmarks [00:31:30]7. Hybrid AI Approaches [00:35:00]8. Consciousness & The Hard Problem [00:39:35]9. The Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute (DISI) [00:53:20]10. Living Systems & Self-Organization [00:54:17]11. Closing Thoughts [01:04:24]Michaels socials:https://michaeltimothybennett.com/https://x.com/MiTiBennettTranscript:https://app.rescript.info/public/share/4jSKbcM77Sf6Zn-Ms4hda7C4krRrMcQt0qwYqiqPTPIReferences:Bennett, M.T. "What the F*** is Artificial Intelligence"https://arxiv.org/abs/2503.23923Bennett, M.T. "Are Biological Systems More Intelligent Than Artificial Intelligence?" https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.02325Bennett, M.T. PhD Thesis "How To Build Conscious Machines"https://osf.io/preprints/thesiscommons/wehmg_v1Legg, S. & Hutter, M. (2007). "Universal Intelligence: A Definition of Machine Intelligence"Wang, P. "Defining Artificial Intelligence" - on non-axiomatic reasoning systems (NARS)Chollet, F. (2019). "On the Measure of Intelligence" - introduces the ARC benchmark and developer-aware generalizationHutter, M. (2005). "Universal Artificial Intelligence: Sequential Decisions Based on Algorithmic Probability"Chalmers, D. "The Hard Problem of Consciousness"Descartes, R. - Cartesian dualism and the pineal gland theory (historical context)Friston, K. - Free Energy Principle and Active Inference frameworkLevin, M. - Work on collective intelligence, cancer as information isolation, and "mind blindness"Hinton, G. (2022). "The Forward-Forward Algorithm" - introduces mortal computation conceptAlexander Ororbia & Friston - Formal treatment of mortal computationSutton, R. "The Bitter Lesson" - on search and learning in AIPearl, J. "The Book of Why" - causal inference and reasoningAlternative AGI ApproachesWang, P. - NARS (Non-Axiomatic Reasoning System)Goertzel, B. - Hyperon system and modular AGI architecturesBenchmarks & EvaluationHendrycks, D. - Humanities Last Exam benchmark (mentioned re: saturation)Filmed at:Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute (DISI) https://disi.org/

Deep dive with Dan Hendrycks, a leading AI safety researcher and co-author of the "Superintelligence Strategy" paper with former Google CEO Eric Schmidt and Scale AI CEO Alexandr Wang.*** SPONSOR MESSAGESGemini CLI is an open-source AI agent that brings the power of Gemini directly into your terminal - https://github.com/google-gemini/gemini-cliProlific: Quality data. From real people. For faster breakthroughs.https://prolific.com/mlst?utm_campaign=98404559-MLST&utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=script-gen***Hendrycks argues that society is making a fundamental mistake in how it views artificial intelligence. We often compare AI to transformative but ultimately manageable technologies like electricity or the internet. He contends a far better and more realistic analogy is nuclear technology. Like nuclear power, AI has the potential for immense good, but it is also a dual-use technology that carries the risk of unprecedented catastrophe.The Problem with an AI "Manhattan Project":A popular idea is for the U.S. to launch a "Manhattan Project" for AI—a secret, all-out government race to build a superintelligence before rivals like China. Hendrycks argues this strategy is deeply flawed and dangerous for several reasons:- It wouldn’t be secret. You cannot hide a massive, heat-generating data center from satellite surveillance.- It would be destabilizing. A public race would alarm rivals, causing them to start their own desperate, corner-cutting projects, dramatically increasing global risk.- It’s vulnerable to sabotage. An AI project can be crippled in many ways, from cyberattacks that poison its training data to physical attacks on its power plants. This is what the paper refers to as a "maiming attack."This vulnerability leads to the paper's central concept: Mutual Assured AI Malfunction (MAIM). This is the AI-era version of the nuclear-era's Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD). In this dynamic, any nation that makes an aggressive, destabilizing bid for a world-dominating AI must expect its rivals to sabotage the project to ensure their own survival. This deterrence, Hendrycks argues, is already the default reality we live in.A Better Strategy: The Three PillarsInstead of a reckless race, the paper proposes a more stable, three-part strategy modeled on Cold War principles:- Deterrence: Acknowledge the reality of MAIM. The goal should not be to "win" the race to superintelligence, but to deter anyone from starting such a race in the first place through the credible threat of sabotage.- Nonproliferation: Just as we work to keep fissile materials for nuclear bombs out of the hands of terrorists and rogue states, we must control the key inputs for catastrophic AI. The most critical input is advanced AI chips (GPUs). Hendrycks makes the powerful claim that building cutting-edge GPUs is now more difficult than enriching uranium, making this strategy viable.- Competitiveness: The race between nations like the U.S. and China should not be about who builds superintelligence first. Instead, it should be about who can best use existing AI to build a stronger economy, a more effective military, and more resilient supply chains (for example, by manufacturing more chips domestically).Dan says the stakes are high if we fail to manage this transition:- Erosion of Control- Intelligence Recursion- Worthless LaborHendrycks maintains that while the risks are existential, the future is not set. TOC:1 Measuring the Beast [00:00:00]2 Defining the Beast [00:11:34]3 The Core Strategy [00:38:20]4 Ideological Battlegrounds [00:53:12]5 Mechanisms of Control [01:34:45]TRANSCRIPT:https://app.rescript.info/public/share/cOKcz4pWRPjh7BTIgybd7PUr_vChUaY6VQW64No8XMs<truncated, see refs and larger description on YT version>