Kate Bowler on the Ache That Makes Us Human—and the Joy That Makes Us Whole

Description:If you’ve ever whispered, Is this it?—if you’ve been doing “all the right things” and still feel that unfinished ache humming under your skin—go ahead and hit download. Jen is joined by her beloved friend (and actual genius) Kate Bowler to talk about her new book, Joyful Anyway—a bracing, funny, tender rebellion against the optimization industrial complex. This is not a “choose joy” pep talk where somebody sprints past you tossing a Live Laugh Love pillow at your face. Kate is here for the after: after the before-and-after story didn’t pan out, after grief and guilt and longing set up permanent residence, after you realized happiness is fragile and reality keeps kicking in. Together, Jen, Amy, and Kate name what so many of us can’t quite articulate: the ache—that “achy, stabby want” at the center of our lived experience. They talk about why we need permission just to be human, why “performing resilience” is exhausting, and how telling the truth can loosen the grip of the story that’s been swallowing the rest of our life. Kate also shares an unforgettable story about a snake bite, an ER, and a moment of unexpected mercy that cracked something open—proof that joy doesn’t always come through the front door. Sometimes it slips in sideways, like grace. Like a sudden, full-bodied yes—even when nothing is resolved. You’ll also hear about: The difference between happiness (fragile and expensive) and joy (sneaky, un-schedulable, and—somehow—free) How joy finds us through embodied moments—beauty, absurdity, paying attention The Burn Book / Resentment List and why making a “this scarred me, this counted” list might be the most faithful thing you do all week (including Kate’s deeply personal grievance about her tragically unaesthetic family gravesite) Roadside Joy Detours: Kate’s practice of putting herself “in the way of joy” with absurd road trips to local oddities And Kate’s reminder: you are a song—don’t die with it still inside you Bottom line: if you’re quietly undone, if your body feels weary, if the headlines have you spiraling—Kate is here with permission, language, and a weird little flashlight. The ache stays. But joy still shows up. Sometimes as grace. Sometimes as absurdity. Sometimes as a roadside attraction you drove two hours to see for no reason—except you’re alive, and that’s reason enough. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I think there's a great mystery at the heart of the human experience and I wanted to explore joy as one of those unbelievable places.” – Kate Bowler “The purpose of that ache inside you is to get you to re-examine how it feels in your body, bring your honesty to it, and then ask, where can I go from here? Where can this take me that's lovelier than here?” – Kate Bowler “I find that absurdity is one of the side doors to joy.” – Kate Bowler “Joy is asking us to step up to the edge of a mystery where we get momentary fulfillment and then we get life. And God is asking us to say that this is holy.” – Kate Bowler Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Joyful Anyway by Kate Bowler - https://amzn.to/3ZWqNBT Kate Bowler book tour - https://katebowler.com/books/joyfulanyway/#tour Theo of Golden: A Novel by Allen Levi- https://amzn.to/4bdpN2q Guest’s Links: Website - https://katebowler.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/katecbowler/ Twitter - https://x.com/katecbowler Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/katecbowler Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf8m7lNdR7YVieU0muCg5cg TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@katecbowler Substack - https://katebowler.substack.com/ Podcast - https://katebowler.com/podcasts/ Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:What does it mean to be okay when nothing is okay? Not fixed. Not optimized. Not cured. Just… okay. This week, Jen and Amy sit down with bestselling author and professional weirdo Jenny Lawson to talk about surviving — and sometimes even thriving — inside a brain that does not always cooperate. Jenny’s new book, How to Be Okay When Nothing Is Okay, is a field guide for tender humans: a collection of tiny tools for when the big solutions feel impossible. Today, we talk about: Living with “tiny erratic squirrels” in your head Why imposter syndrome gets louder with success Learning to live within your real capacity Why you’re not failing if it’s just not for you Helpful tools like “weird walks”, “body doubling”, “writing Zooms”,  The radical courage of simply staying This conversation explores what happens when we stop trying to override our nervous systems and start listening to them instead. Midlife has a way of stripping away illusion — about productivity, about comparison, about who we’re supposed to be. Jenny reminds us that sometimes grit looks like finishing the book. And sometimes it looks like taking a drink of water and calling it enough. If you are exhausted, if you feel behind, if your brain tells you you’re the only one struggling – YOU ARE NOT ALONE. And being “still here” is no small thing. Thought-provoking Quotes: “Self-help books are super helpful for the right kind of person but I’m not that person.” – Jenny Lawson “Keep in mind that what worked for you in the past might not necessarily work for you now or in the future, and that doesn't mean you failed. It just means that's an opportunity.” – Jenny Lawson “If you throw humor into a really dark subject, it gives people permission to laugh. And then that big monster becomes so much smaller.” – Jenny Lawson Resources Mentioned in This Episode: How to Be Okay When Nothing Is Okay: Tips and Tricks That Kept Me Alive, Happy, and Creative in Spite of Myself by Jenny Lawson – https://amzn.to/4qWKZi5 Samantha Irby – https://www.samanthairby.com/ A Ghost and His Gold by Roberta Eaton Cheadle – https://amzn.to/405lMH8 Anne Rice – https://annerice.com/ Dean Koontz – https://www.deankoontz.com/ Mexican Gothic by Silvia Moreno-Garcia – https://amzn.to/475Qp31 Focusmate (Body Doubling App) -  https://www.focusmate.com/ Let's Pretend This Never Happened: (A Mostly True Memoir) by Jenny Lawson – https://amzn.to/4rGEBN7 Furiously Happy: A Funny Book About Horrible Things by Jenny Lawson – https://amzn.to/4u4RBxG Broken (In The Best Possible Way) by Jenny Lawson – https://amzn.to/4r3Bhuh Jenny Lawson Book Tour - https://thebloggess.com/2026/02/25/how-to-be-okay-when-nothing-is-okay-on-book-tour/ Jenny Lawson’s Nowhere Book Shop in San Antonio, TX - https://nowherebookshop.com/ Guest’s Links: Website - https://thebloggess.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thebloggess/ Twitter - https://x.com/TheBloggess Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jennythebloggess Pinterest - https://www.pinterest.com/thebloggess/ Substack - https://thebloggess.substack.com/ Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:For years, women in their late 30s and 40s have walked into doctors’ offices saying the same thing: “I don’t feel like myself.” They’re exhausted but can’t sleep. Gaining weight but eating less. Anxious, foggy, irritable, disconnected. And too often, they’re told it’s stress. Aging. Depression. Just part of being a woman. But what if it’s something else? This week, Jen and Amy sit down with board-certified OB-GYN and menopause expert Dr. Mary Claire Haver to talk about what’s really happening in perimenopause — the hormonal transition that can begin years before your final period and affect nearly every system in your body. Drawing from her new book The New Perimenopause, Dr. Haver explains: Why the brain may be the first organ to notice hormone shifts Why antidepressants are often prescribed before hormones are even discussed The dangerous legacy of outdated research and underfunded women’s health How bone density, cholesterol, muscle mass, mood, libido, and cognition are all connected And why midlife is not a decline — but a powerful window of opportunity This is not just a conversation about hot flashes. It’s about the “Zone of Chaos.” It’s about medical gaslighting. It’s about reclaiming your body as your ally, not your enemy. If you’ve ever whispered, “What is wrong with me?” or spent your sleepless nights up Googling dramatic questions like “is my brain broken?” — this episode is for you. You’re not broken. You’re not weak. And you are definitely not alone. Thought-provoking Quotes: “We got some bad f*cking advice…Power through! You built this life. You asked for this. Oh, and also be thin, and make yourself smaller, and don't take up space, and make sure you put everyone in your family before your needs. That's the only way you're gonna be rewarded, elevated, celebrated is on this altar of self-sacrifice. You know what that did for my mother and my grandmother? Dementia and sarcopenia. I’m saying we’re going to take a different path.” – Dr. Mary Claire Haver  “Men build rockets. Women build healthcare systems.” – Dr. Mary Claire Haver  “One of the good things about menopause is that women lose their give-a-shit filter.” – Dr. Mary Claire Haver “I just want menopause to be taken half as seriously as erectile dysfunction.” – Dr. Mary Claire Haver Resources Mentioned in This Episode: The New Perimenopause: An Evidence-Based Guide to Surviving the Zone of Chaos and Feeling Like Yourself Again by Dr. Mary Claire Haver – https://www.amazon.com/New-Perimenopause-Evidence-Based-Surviving-Yourself/dp/0593736613/ The New Menopause: Navigating Your Path Through Hormonal Change with Purpose, Power, and Facts by Dr. Mary Claire Haver - https://amzn.to/4aUtrx3 The Blue Lagoon film (1980) – https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080453/ Menopause.org The International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health (ISSWSH) - https://www.isswsh.org/ The Pause Life - https://thepauselife.com/ MidiHealth - https://www.joinmidi.com/ Guest’s Links: Website - https://thepauselife.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/drmaryclaire Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/drmaryclaire Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@drmaryclaire TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@drmaryclaire Substack - https://drmaryclairehaver.substack.com/ Podcast - https://thepauselife.com/blogs/the-unpaused-podcast Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:What do we do when the world feels like too much? When the headlines won’t let up, when grief and uncertainty sit heavy in our bodies, when we’re carrying more than we ever thought we could—how do we keep going without numbing out or falling apart? This week, Jen sits down with beloved writer and friend Shannan Martin to talk about her new book Counterweights, a tender, practical guide for living with hope in a heavy world. At the center of Shannan’s work is a deceptively simple idea: when life gets heavy, we don’t eliminate the weight—we learn to carry something equally weighty in the other hand. Not balance. Not denial. But both/and. Together, Jen and Shannan explore what it means to hold grief and joy at the same time, to resist despair without turning away from reality, and to find steady ground in the middle of it all. They talk about community as survival, faith that evolves and expands, and the small, ordinary moments that become lifelines when everything feels overwhelming. This conversation is a fitting close to our Wilderness & Wonder exploration—because if the wilderness strips us down to what’s real, Shannan helps us ask: what will hold us up now? If you’ve been feeling stretched thin, worn down, or just plain tired of carrying it all alone, this episode is for you. Thought-provoking Quotes: “Now, what are the things that are keeping me going? For me, it’s clawing for those little tiny moments where we can. I need to see myself take care of myself.” – Shannan Martin “We have to carry a lot of really heavy things in one hand. We don't choose these things. We would never have asked for them. And we can't just put them down. We don't have control over them. We can't just set them aside. So how do we carry these heavy things? We fill the other hand with heavy goodness.” – Shannan Martin “The world feels catastrophic right now. My bowl of curry for lunch cannot cancel that out. There's no amount of beautiful sunsets that can cancel out a diagnosis that nobody wants or these heavy, heavy things that we are tasked with carrying because balance is impossible.” – Shannan Martin “When wholeness is our goal, beauty is our emergency.” – Shannan Martin “Anytime I can disrupt the algorithm, I feel it in my body.” – Shannan Martin “The abundant life is not getting all the things we ever wanted. The abundant life is you get this and this and the task now is to figure out how to carry it.” – Shannan Martin Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Counterweights: An Essential Practice for Holding Hope in a Heavy World by Shannan Martin - https://amzn.to/4sRdTRZ David Chang - https://www.instagram.com/davidchang/ 7: An Experimental Mutiny Against Excess by Jen Hatmaker Rainer Maria Rilke - https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/rainer-maria-rilke Sara Miles - https://sara-miles.squarespace.com/bio Shannan Martin Book Tour - https://www.shannanmartin.com/counterweights-events Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.shannanmartin.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/shannanwrites/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/shannan.garbermartin Substack - https://www.shannanmartin.com/newsletter Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today we are thrilled to introduce you to a voice we think can really help us navigate some of the big life questions we’re facing right now: Suzy Welch. Have you ever wondered, “What should I do with my life?” Or, “Should I stay or should I go?” Or, “Is there anyone out there who actually tells the freaking truth about life and work today, but also does not leave me in despair?” Wonder no more! The “Becoming You” podcast has arrived, hosted by Suzy Welch, the business journalist-turned-professor at the helm of NYU’s wildly popular self-discovery class by the same name. A three New York Times best-seller and frequent contributor to the Today Show and the Wall Street Journal, Professor Welch is considered a leading expert on decision-making, and the discovery and pursuit of authentic purpose. Join Suzy every week to laugh, learn, get riled up, get calmed down, and basically get closer to becoming you, joyfully, in this crazy, upside-down, scary, messy, and altogether beautiful world we share. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:Sometimes a conversation lands so gently—and so powerfully—that it deserves another moment in the light. In this encore episode, Jen revisits her conversation with poet, writer, and visual artist David Gate, whose work explores themes of care, community, and spiritual resilience. Jen first discovered David the way so many of us discover the words that change us: late at night on Instagram, stumbling across a poem that made her stop mid-scroll and immediately send it to six friends. That was the beginning of a quiet fandom that eventually turned into this conversation—one that felt less like an interview and more like sitting in the presence of someone who has learned how to notice beauty in hard places. David’s work—including his collection A Rebellion of Care—is rooted in the radical idea that tenderness, attention, and compassion are not small acts. They are resistance. They are survival. They are a way through the wilderness. Together, Jen and David explore the ways language can become a lifeline during difficult seasons. They talk about the courage of softness in a harsh world, the sacred practice of paying attention, and how poetry can give us words for things we thought we had to carry alone. This conversation sits right at the intersection: the wilderness of grief, uncertainty, and fatigue—and the wonder that still insists on growing in the cracks. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I did not want to have an email job and I did not want to be in meetings that could have been emails. I did not want to be on Slack. I just didn't want that to be what I was spending my time doing. I loved caring for people, and I loved creating and writing, and I got to do that within the church world.” – David Gate “It’s a constant battle to speak the truth. Even things we all know It can be difficult to say, if it's not something that is normally said, and it's not something that is normally expressed, so you have to fight for that and you have to fight for your experience of the truth. You have to fight for your story. You have to fight for all of that.” – David Gate “I think it's very, very difficult for men to reach for emotional honesty because everything tells you that you're failing if you do that. But it's the most important work right now. And so much of what men are actually looking for in this world, intimacy, a sense of place, a sense of belonging, companionship, adventure, excitement, is on the other side of reaching for that emotional honesty.” – David Gate Resources Mentioned in This Episode: A Rebellion of Care: Poems and Essays by David Gate - https://amzn.to/4jjf87X Good Soil: The Education of an Accidental Farmhand by Jeff Chu - https://amzn.to/3GnS21w Cultivating Belonging and Evolving Faith with Jeff Chu - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/cultivating-belonging-and-evolving-faith-with-jeff-chu/ Sarah Bessey - https://www.sarahbessey.com/ Armando Veve, Illustrator - https://www.instagram.com/armandoveve/ Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/3YHKgpw Sinners film (2025) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt31193180/ Malaprop's Bookstore, Asheville - https://www.malaprops.com/ Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.davidgatepoet.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/davidgatepoet/ Substack - https://substack.com/@davidgatepoet Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:Today’s bonus episode is a joy from start to finish. We’re sitting down with treasured friend Anne Lamott—beloved writer, teacher, and spiritual guide—whose voice has shaped how so many of us think about faith, truth, writing, and what it means to be human on the page. Anne returns to For the Love to talk about her upcoming book, Good Writing, co-written with her husband, journalist and editor Neal Allen. While Neal couldn’t join us today, this conversation is very much about the shared work they created together—a book that isn’t chasing polish or perfection, but clarity, honesty, and respect for the reader. Good Writing is part craft guide, part philosophy of living. Written in alternating voices, it blends Anne’s signature warmth, humor, and spiritual insight with Neal’s journalistic precision and discipline. Together, they explore what makes sentences work, how voice is formed, why ego gets in the way, and why clarity is not just a stylistic choice—but an act of generosity. In this intimate and often funny conversation, Jen and Amy talk with Anne about what it was like to co-write a book so closely, what collaboration revealed about trust and restraint, and how writing—at its best—is a relationship. They dig into voice and ego, bad sentences and letting go, rhythm and revision, and why removing what doesn’t serve the sentence can feel like both grief and grace. But as always with Anne, the conversation goes deeper than craft. This episode explores writing as a way of being in the world—how attention, humility, and courage shape not only our sentences, but our lives.  If you’ve ever loved Bird by Bird, wrestled with your inner critic, or longed to tell the truth with a little more care—this conversation is for you. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I only have to do today, today.” – Anne Lamott “We write because we try to tell the truth. We try to share our experience, strength and hope.” – Anne Lamott “Say what you mean. Mean what you say. And don’t say it mean.” – Anne Lamott Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Traveling Mercies: Some Thoughts on Faith by Anne Lamott - https://amzn.to/4qLZRQR Anne Lamott on Faith, Writing, and Radical Self-Love - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/bonus/anne-lamott-on-faith-writing-and-radical-self-love-2/ Neal Allen - https://www.shapesoftruth.com/ Good Writing: 36 Ways to Improve Your Sentences by Neal Allen and Anne Lamott - https://amzn.to/3NMoKNP Bird by Bird: Some Instructions on Writing and Life by Anne Lamott - https://amzn.to/4t7FteL Somehow: Thoughts on Love by Anne Lamott - https://amzn.to/3Z4Nd3r Stanley Tucci on the For the Love podcast - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/stanley-tucci-food-memories-and-emotions/ Amy’s Full of Microplastics and Existential Dread Sweatshirt - https://www.threadless.com/shop/@dinomike/design/full-of-microplastics/womens/sweatshirt Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4rlv3Gz Jessica Mitford - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Mitford Tyler Merritt - https://thetylermerrittproject.com/ I Take My Coffee Black: Reflections on Tupac, Musical Theater, Faith, and Being Black in America by Tyler Merritt - https://amzn.to/49N1ms8 Better Days: Tame Your Inner Critic by Neal Allen - https://amzn.to/3LTEVs9 A Writing Room - https://awritingroom.com/ Guest’s Links: Website - https://awritingroom.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/annelamott/ Twitter - https://x.com/ANNELAMOTT?lang=en Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/AnneLamott/ Substack - https://annelamott.substack.com/ Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:If parenting has you oscillating between “I’ve got this” and “I need to lie down immediately,” press play. Today, we’re stepping into one of the most humbling arenas for compassion and grace: your own living room. Because fierce compassion isn’t just for coworkers and complicated relatives—it’s also for the tiny humans melting down over the wrong color cup or the soccer uniform that didn’t get washed in time for game day. And it’s for YOU, standing there, wondering how you got so activated over this nonsense. Jen and Amy are talking to Mandy Grass—nationally recognized Board-Certified Behavior Analyst, founder of The Family Behaviorist, former teacher, and mom in a blended family of seven kids (ages four to sixteen). Yes, seven. Her house is less “quiet retreat” and more “ongoing behavioral case study.” The data is… robust. For nearly two decades, Mandy has been translating behavior science into practical, no-guilt tools for families. Her central message feels radical in a culture obsessed with control: kids’ behavior is communication—not a moral failure. And neither is your exhaustion. In this conversation, we talk about: What Mandy actually hears when parents say, “We’ve tried everything” How shame and blame sneak into parenting—and how to gently escort them out Why so much of parenting work begins with the parent, not the kid (I know. We had feelings about this too.) And one tiny shift you can make tonight that will cool the temperature at home (no sticker charts required) Here’s the truth: we cannot regulate our kids if we are operating at DEFCON 1 ourselves. Fierce compassion means holding boundaries without losing your humanity. It means seeing your child clearly—and offering yourself the same grace when you inevitably lose it over bedtime negotiations. Mandy also shares about her new podcast, The Behavior Blueprint, a grounded, step-by-step guide for parents who are tired of quick fixes and ready for something that actually works in real life—not just on Instagram. It’s equal parts instruction, compassion, and “oh thank God, it’s not just me.” Take a breath. Your child isn’t the problem. You aren’t either. And that might be the fiercest compassion of all. Thought-provoking Quotes: "In behavior analysis, every behavior has a function –attention, escape, access to something tangible, and an automatic or a sensory function."– Mandy Grass “Do I have ADHD, anxiety, or am I just a mom?” – Mandy Grass “Our default is take away, take away, take away. And really what we want to do is reinforce the behavior we want to see more of.” – Mandy Grass “You’re not gonna get it right every time, but at least it doesn't feel like you have no idea what to do.”– Mandy Grass Resources Mentioned in This Episode: The Behavior Blueprint podcast with Mandy Grass - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-behavior-blueprint-with-mandy-grass/id1872526999 Too Much Junk on Your Social Media Feeds? I'll Show You How to Clean It Up - https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/too-much-junk-on-your-social-media-feeds-ill-show-you-how-to-clean-it-up?test_uuid=04IpBmWGZleS0I0J3epvMrC&test_variant=A Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.thefamilybehaviorist.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thefamilybehaviorist Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61560942080087 Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@thefamilybehaviorist TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@thefamilybehaviorist Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-behavior-blueprint-with-mandy-grass/id1872526999 Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:What if you were handed a single piece of information that could change everything you think you know about your life? For this Jen Hatmaker Book Club episode, Jen sits down with novelist Nikki Erlick, author of the wildly imaginative and deeply human novel The Measure—a story that asks one unsettling question: What would you do if you knew exactly how long you had to live? In The Measure, every adult in the world receives a small wooden box containing a string that reveals the length of their life. What follows isn’t chaos for chaos’ sake, but something far more intimate: marriages tested, dreams deferred or pursued, fears amplified, and love redefined. It’s a novel about mortality, yes—but even more so about meaning, choice, and how we show up for one another when certainty is stripped away. Jen and Nikki talk about the origin of this unforgettable premise, the emotional weight of writing about death in order to illuminate life, and why the book resonates so deeply with readers navigating grief, anxiety, hope, and big unanswered questions. They explore what The Measure reveals about how we value time, how fear can quietly shape our decisions, and what it might look like to live more honestly—even without guarantees. Whether you’ve already read along with the book club or are just encountering this story for the first time, this conversation invites you to reflect on your own “measure”—and to consider how love, courage, and presence might matter more than the number of days themselves. This episode is tender, thought-provoking, and quietly life-altering. Come for the story. Stay for the questions it leaves you asking long after the last page. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I was preoccupied with these big questions in life, the things that don't have easy answers or any answers at all. Why do people have different fates? Why do bad things happen to good people? How much power do we actually have over our lives? That inspired me.” – Nikki Erlick “My process felt like people knocking on the door to my brain at all times, being like, what about me? What about me? I would be an interesting story too. I had to answer the first couple of knocks and bring these new characters in. Once I hit eight or 10, I felt like readers can't handle any more than this.” – Nikki Erlick “I wanted to pull on everything, for every community that has been marginalized to make this experience feel real for the people in this book.” – Nikki Erlick “The one thing that doesn't go out of style is hope.”– Nikki Erlick Resources Mentioned in This Episode: The Measure: A Novel by Nikki Erlick - https://amzn.to/3OmiJaK The Poppy Fields: A Novel by Nikki Erlick - https://amzn.to/49ZxdGf Allen Bradley, author - https://alanbradleyauthor.com/ Sandwich: A Novel by Catherine Newman - https://amzn.to/4a0bOwB Catherine Newman on the For the Love podcast - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/august-2025-catherine-newmans-sandwich/ Wreck by Catherine Newman - https://amzn.to/4bvUy3o This Is Not About Us by Allegra Goodman - https://amzn.to/4qnGIE3 Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.nikkierlick.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/nikkierlick/ Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:Many of us were taught that desire is dangerous—something to manage, suppress, or feel ashamed of. But what if desire isn’t the problem at all? What if it’s not just about sex or attraction, but about the places we feel most alive? Today, Jen and Amy sit down with FTL fan-favorite Jay Stringer, a licensed therapist and author whose work helps people understand the deeper stories shaping their desires—especially the ones we’ve been taught to hide, or silence. Drawing from his powerful new book Desire, Jay reframes desire not as a moral failure or impulse to eliminate, but as a signal worth listening to—one that points us toward what formed us, what wounded us, and what we are still longing for beneath the surface. Jay shifts the focus from behavior modification to understanding the story behind desire—for intimacy, success, escape, creativity, or belonging—shaped by early attachment, trauma, and unmet needs. The conversation moves from "What's wrong with me?" to "What happened to me?" turning desire from shame into meaning. This is not a conversation about labeling or fixing yourself. It’s about understanding yourself—how your story formed you, and how listening to what brings you to life can lead toward freedom, wholeness, and deeper connection.  This episode also serves as the opening doorway into our Wilderness & Wonder series. In a season when many of us are navigating uncertainty—spiritually, relationally, or internally—this episode grounds us in the idea that exploration isn’t aimlessness, but formation. That the wilderness can be a teacher. And that desire itself may be one of the quiet guides helping us stay awake, curious, and present as we learn how to live inside the questions. This is a gentle conversation, but it’s also a brave one. And we’re really glad you’re here for it. Thought-provoking Quotes: “Desire is a navigational term from Latin that means ‘lack of a star’. I'm looking into the skies, trying to find this new direction. How do I get home in the midst of all this wandering, all this misery that I feel like I'm in?” – Jay Stringer “When did you last feel alive? When did you feel connected to your body, connected to others? That's the essence of desire that we're trying to get back to.” – Jay Stringer “The antidote to shame is really developing some curiosity for it.” – Jay Stringer Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Harper’s Magazine | Who Goes Nazi? by Dorothy Thompson - https://harpers.org/archive/1941/08/who-goes-nazi/ Desire: The Longings Inside Us and the New Science of How We Love, Heal, and Grow by Jay Stringer - https://amzn.to/4buLADD Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing by Jay Stringer - https://www.amazon.com/Unwanted-Sexual-Brokenness-Reveals-Healing/dp/1631466720 Annie Dillard - https://www.anniedillard.com/ Brené Brown - https://brenebrown.com/ Alex Honnold climbs Taipei 101 skyscraper without ropes - https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Living/video/alex-honnold-climbs-taipei-101-skyscraper-ropes-129537771 Bill Plotkin - https://www.animas.org/about-us/our-founder/ Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/3LTorjM Stanzas from the Grande Chartreuse by Matthew Arnold - https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43605/stanzas-from-the-grande-chartreuse Jon Batiste - jonbatiste.com Sarah Bessey - https://www.sarahbessey.com/ Dacher Keltner, PhD - https://www.dacherkeltner.com/ Guest’s Links: Website - https://jay-stringer.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jay_stringer_/ Twitter - https://x.com/_jaystringer Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/JayStringerUnwanted# Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices