Ep. 146: Dr. Kathryn Gordon — How to Save a Life by Meeting Despair with Love and Connection

My guest this week is psychologist Dr. Beth Kurland, author of the new book, You Don’t Have to Change to Change Everything: Six Ways to Shift Your Vantage Point, Stop Striving for Happy, and Find True Well-Being (affiliate link). We begin with a calming guided meditation that Beth led. Topics we discussed included: The assumption that not feeling at ease is a personal failure Being with our distress without being swallowed up by it Cultivating well-being in the absence of happiness The role of self-compassion in well-being Recognizing and connecting with a deeper part of ourselves, whether we call is Self, spirit, or soul Seeing the world from our Wise Self Living from our head vs. being more connected to and aware of the body Contraction vs. expansion in the area around the heart Why we don’t habitually run toward our body and wise Self as refuges A simple practice for coming back into one’s body Proper breathing for calming the nervous system Beth Kurland, PhD, is a clinical psychologist with three decades of experience. She is also a TEDx and public speaker, a mind-body coach, and an author of three award-winning books: Dancing on The Tightrope; The Transformative Power of Ten Minutes; and Gifts of the Rain Puddle.  Beth blogs for Psychology Today and is the creator of the Well-Being Toolkit online program. She lives in the Boston area. For more, visit her website.  

My guest this week is Dr. Peter Levine, who is well-known for being the developer of Somatic Experiencing. He’s also the author of a new book: An Autobiography of Trauma: A Healing Journey (affiliate link), which we focused on in this very enjoyable and meaningful discussion. Peter shared about how his own wounds from early in life were a big part of what led him into the field of trauma therapy. We explored how the healing continues, even now in Peter’s ninth decade. Topics we discussed included: What Peter means when he describes himself as a modern “Chiron” Using our own wounds in life as we’re working to help others Getting to trauma memories and healing through embodiment in somatic experiencing The horrific trauma Peter experienced early in his life The dream that led Peter to share this book rather than writing it only for his own healing The significance of dreams for waking life Learning to attend to the promptings of the unconscious mind The relation between somatic experiencing and an approach like cognitive behavioral therapy The role of the vagus nerve in the trauma response and in healing Using the body to encounter our traumas in a healing way Why a union of the body and mind tends to reduce anxiety The disconnection we so often experience between our minds and bodies Peter’s reaction to a meditation workshop several decades ago The idea of “living your dying” Connections between death and the divine The promises and pitfalls of psychedelics Peter Levine, PhD, is the renowned developer of Somatic Experiencing. He holds a doctorate in medical and biological Physics from the University of California at Berkeley and a doctorate in psychology from International University. The recipient of four lifetime achievement awards, he is the author of several books, including Waking the Tiger, which has now been printed in 33 countries and has sold over a million copies. Learn more about: Peter Levine Somatic Experiencing An Autobiography of Trauma

My guest this week for part 4 of our series on midlife is Dr. Tim Windsor. Tim has done many research studies on adult development and how we change in midlife and older age. I took so much from this conversation as Tim described what we know about how to have a great second half of life. Things we discussed included: My guest’s research in lifespan developmental psychology Optimizing one’s potential to live well in later adulthood How Tim came to this area of research The challenges and opportunities that come with an aging population The U-shaped curve in happiness across adulthood The struggles we often face in midlife The socio-emotional selectivity theory of Laura Carstensen at Stanford The downturn in happiness that’s typical of oldest old age Variability in the slopes of well-being across adulthood Organizing our lives in ways that maximize well-being in the second half of life Developing psychological immunity in older age Emotion regulation in older age The benefits of using “positive reappraisal” to rethink one’s perspective The goodness-of-fit between situation and emotion regulation strategy The average increases in mindfulness with older age and the research of Leeann Mahlo Coping through accommodation or assimilation Using momentary ecological assessment to measure how mindful acceptance affects one’s reactions to daily hassles Awareness of losses and gains in older age How my guest’s research influences his behavior as he looks toward older age Tim Windsor, PhD, is a Professor in Psychology and Deputy Director of the Flinders Institute of Mental Health and Wellbeing at Flinders University. His research focuses on examining social and psychological resources that promote well-being in older adulthood, links between views on aging, health and well-being, and developing interventions to promote engagement with life. He is Director of the Generations Research Initiative at Flinders and is a Distinguished Member the Australian Association of Gerontology, and a Fellow of the Gerontological Society of America. Learn more about Tim and his research at his faculty website.

My guest this week is Nick Davies, back for his third time on the podcast. This time we focused on issues related to midlife, as this is part 3 of our series on that topic. Things we discussed included: Nick’s personal backstory and his decision to make a big change in his mid-thirties Asking the right questions that can lead us to fulfillment The danger of “normality” that doesn’t serve us well Waiting for life to open up for you vs. creating the life you want Unhelpful beliefs that can lead us to take a passive role in our own lives Steven Covey’s Seven Habits of Highly Effective People The Happiness Project by Gretchen Rubin Shambhala: The Sacred Path of the Warrior Setting up your environment in a way that helps you flourish (e.g. life-giving relationships) Knowing when to change ourselves vs. changing the situation Returning to my clinical practice with a different mindset Nick Davies is a Tony Robbins-trained coach with over 20 years of experience in the corporate world. Nick’s sweet spot for delivering value is working with high achieving financial advisors who want to add zero’s to their business but aren’t willing to sacrifice their health or time with family, Growing up in England, living across 3 continents and 5 locations, Nick takes the lessons from his extensive exposure to people and business, and applies them to his life and his clients. His focus is to get to the heart of what people really want. Nick believes most of us leave our personal and business potential on the table and settle – and is on a mission to relieve the suffering that can bring. With over 3500 hours of coaching and counting, Nick has worked with many different types of people and businesses to create massive awareness and abundance in those areas. He believes in holding high standards for himself and his clients. That means a focus on results, but also a focus on compassion. Find Nick online at LinkedIn.

My guest this week is Dr. Kieran Setiya, a philosophy professor at MIT and author of Midlife: A Philosophical Guide (affiliate link). Topics we discussed included: The extent to which midlife is a time of crisis Elliott Jaques’s coining of the term “midlife crisis” in 1965 Data showing that life satisfaction is U-shaped, with a low in middle age Common significant challenges in midlife Past, Present, and Future The feeling of having missed out on other possible lives The tremendous loss we would experience if missing out were not possible The power of philosophy in the self-help space The poetic quality of Kieran’s writing and its likely origins The overvaluing of having options for their own sake, even if it costs us in absolute satisfaction Value beyond removing problems and suffering A vision of life beyond striving for “neutral” The tension between feeling like what we do matters, and yet life feels completely pointless The profundity of hobbies as gratuitous activities that aren’t aimed at solving problems What my guest has found is worth doing beyond addressing unmet needs The distinction between telic (project) and atelic (process) activities The societal pressure and value to be project-focused Why we’re bothered by our nonexistence after death much more than our nonexistence before birth Understanding what it would really mean to be immortal How the arc of a life is different from a movie or a book Kieran Setiya, PhD, is professor and philosophy section head at MIT. He works mainly in ethics, epistemology, and the philosophy of mind. Kieran’s other books include Practical Knowledge, Reasons without Rationalism, Knowing Right from Wrong, and Life Is Hard, which was named one of the best books of 2022 by the Economist and the New Yorker. Kieran has also written about stand-up comedy, HP Lovecraft, baseball, free will, and the meaning of life. Find Kieran online at his website and on Substack.

My guest this week is Dr. James Hollis, a therapist and author of many books, including Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life: How to Finally, Really Grow Up (affiliate link). Topics we discussed included: Common struggles one tends to experience in midlife The part of our psyche (soul) that knows us better than we know ourselves The agenda of the first and second halves of an average-length life Why certain issues tend to arise at midlife and not sooner The Buddha’s experiences before and after enlightenment Missing out on the opportunity to find a different solution to unaddressed problems Asking metaphorically what the gods intend through us Living in harmony with our inevitable mortality The Self working to overthrow the ego Asking what the symptoms we’re having are pointing to or asking of us Depression as a reorienting of energies when we’re at odds with ourselves Why popular culture ideas about intimate relationships tend to lead to unhappiness The contrasting realities of “being in love with” and loving another person What it means to leave one’s family of origin for the second time The projection that is part of the origin of any relationship The growth that often comes through challenges and pain The cost to ourselves and our loved ones of denying our calling Aligning vocation with one’s work life How to successfully navigate the challenges of midlife James Hollis, PhD, is a Jungian analyst based in Washington, DC. He is the author of many books, including his latest, A Life of Meaning (affiliate link). Find Jim online at his website.

My guest this week is Dr. Joel Minden, a clinical psychologist, therapist, author of Show Your Anxiety Who’s Boss (affiliate link), and frequent guest on the podcast. This conversation focused on men in therapy. Topics we discussed included: The extent to which men tend to be interested in and open to psychotherapy Fears that men might bring to therapy The significant overlap in the issues men and women deal with and what brings them to therapy The challenge of dealing effectively with anger More frequent externalizing disorders among men, e.g., substance use, aggression Gender differences in suicide attempts and death by suicide Male/female differences in therapy based on roles, e.g., mom vs. dad, husband vs. wife Variability among men or women compared to average differences between men and women Changes over time in men’s attitudes toward and participation in therapy Trying to suppress strong or difficult emotions Deflecting the thread of a discussion when running into difficult material The idea of reclaiming an “alpha” masculinity Confusion and uncertainty about what it means to be a male in our society The benefit of normalization in therapy and in life Joel Minden, PhD, is a clinical psychologist specializing in cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) for anxiety and related disorders. He is the author of Show Your Anxiety Who’s Boss (affiliate link), founder of the Chico Center for Cognitive Behavior Therapy, diplomate of The Academy of Cognitive and Behavioral Therapies, and lecturer in the Department of Psychology at California State University, Chico. Find Joel online at his website and read his blog on Psychology Today.

My guest this week is Dr. Michelle Drapkin, a clinical psychologist, therapist, and author of an excellent new workbook called The Motivational Interviewing Path to Personal Change: The Essential Workbook for Creating the Life You Want (affiliate link). Topics we discussed included: What motivational interviewing (MI) is and why the name is misleading Ambivalence toward change and how it’s addressed with MI Living our values in the midst of our ambivalence Finding different and more productive avenues to pursue our values Prochaska and DiClemente and the Stages of Change model Pre-contemplation Contemplation Preparation Action Maintenance Why change is not a completely linear process How much of our behavior is conscious and intentional vs. automatic Realizing that it’s normal for the mind to think of off-the-wall things The meaning (or meaninglessness) of dreams The book The Alchemist What led Michelle to adapt MI for a self-help workbook The practice of “rolling with resistance,” now renamed “dancing with discord” Encouraging change talk vs. trying to convince someone they have to change Michelle Drapkin, PhD, ABPP, is a board-certified psychologist who owns and operates the Cognitive Behavioral Therapy Center, and has worked in behavioral science for over 20 years. She has held various roles as a behavioral scientist in industry, including leading the development and deployment of behavior change interventions at Johnson & Johnson. Michelle was a national motivational interviewing (MI) trainer at the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA), and was on faculty at the University of Pennsylvania. She completed her PhD in clinical psychology from Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey; and joined the Motivational Interviewing Network of Trainers (MINT) in 2008. She has trained thousands of health care professionals and industry leaders in MI. Find Michelle online at her website and on LinkedIn.

My guest this week is Dr. Regine Galanti, a licensed psychologist and author of the amazing new book, Parenting Anxious Kids: Understanding Anxiety in Children by Age and Stage (affiliate link). It was Regine’s second time on the podcast and we had another great conversation. Topics we discussed included: Regine’s fantastic new book Less-frequently recognized signs of anxiety in young kids Why anxious parents often have anxious kids The online information for parents that often makes kids’ anxiety worse The issues my guest takes with “gentle parenting” The negative effects on kids of missing school due to anxiety Parents’ concerns about how the way they respond to their child’s anxiety will hurt their relationship Building the relationship with a child outside of the “anxiety zone” The shortcomings of so-called “tough love” when it comes from anger or fear The challenges when a parent of an anxious child isn’t ready to face their own fears All-or-nothing approaches to responding to a child’s anxiety The opportunities that kids offer in terms of parents’ growth Ways that a parent-child relationship can grow by working through hard things together Regine Galanti, PhD, is a licensed psychologist who focuses on helping kids and teens with anxiety. She specializes in cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) and has expertise in treating OCD, anxiety, parenting, and behavioral problems. She’s the founder of Long Island Behavioral Psychology, where she brings warmth, sensitivity, and a problem solving approach to her practice.  Regine specializes in effective short-term treatments that work for anxiety and related disorders, including exposure therapy. She lives in Long Island, New York with her husband and three daughters.  She’s quick to acknowledge that they all get anxious sometimes, and that’s okay. In addition to this new book, she’s also the author of Anxiety Relief for Teens and When Harley Has Anxiety. Find Regine online at her website and on Twitter and Instagram.

My guest this week is Dr. David Tolin, a clinical psychologist, researcher, author, and expert on effective treatments for many psychological conditions. In this conversation we focused on hoarding disorder, and then segued into a more general discussion about cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) and other treatment approaches. Topics we discussed included: The continuum of hoarding The diagnostic criteria for when hoarding is considered a disorder Instances of needing to buy a second home due to hoarding The prevalence of hoarding disorder The causes of hoarding How those who are at risk for hoarding disorder can minimize the risk of developing it The limits of reason and logic in treating hoarding Effective hoarding treatment The possibility that the medications atomoxetine and venlafaxine might be effective The role of distress tolerance in treatment Prioritizing living better over feeling better The value of strategies from motivational interviewing Effectiveness of the best treatments The effects on hoarding of general talk therapy Whether cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is the best treatment for every condition How to harness the placebo effect in therapy Finding mutual respect across therapy traditions The need for more effective psychological treatment Doing higher quality research studies What to do when the best-tested treatments aren’t helpful Historical advancements in CBT for panic disorder The textbook that David wrote calling Doing CBT David Tolin, PhD, ABPP, is the Founder and Director of the Anxiety Disorders Center at the Institute of Living, and an Adjunct Professor of Psychiatry at Yale University School of Medicine. He is the Past-President of the Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies, the Past-President of the Clinical Psychology Division of the American Psychological Association, and a principal investigator for the National Institutes of Health. He received the Awards for Distinguished Contribution to the Science of Psychology, Distinguished Contribution to the Practice of Psychology, and Lifetime Contribution to Psychology from the Connecticut Psychological Association. David is the author of over 200 scientific journal articles, as well as several books, including (affiliate links): Doing CBT: A Comprehensive Guide to Working with Behaviors, Thoughts, and Emotions Buried in Treasures: Help for Compulsive Acquiring, Saving, and Hoarding Face Your Fears: A Proven Plan to Beat Anxiety, Panic, Phobias, and Obsessions. He has been featured on the reality TV series Hoarders and The OCD Project, and has been a recurring guest on The Oprah Winfrey Show. Find David online at his website and at the Institute of Living.