S2 E4: Take With Caution

A chapter from Jane Marie’s forthcoming book. Preorder at jane-marie.com.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Dream listeners called in to share their own experiences with life coaches: the good, the bad and the absurd.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sarah Edmonson publicly left NXIVM, a life coaching MLM made famous by the HBO documentary, The Vow, in 2017 shortly after being branded with the founder's initials. Jane and Sarah sit down to discuss the fine line between coaching and culting. Sarah and her husband, Nippy Ames, host the podcast A Little Bit Culty.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Days after the debut of this season, Jessie Lee Ward, who was featured in episodes one and nine, passed away after a short battle with cancer. Jane reconnects with Erin Bies to discuss her former friend’s legacy and talks with Death Coach, Megan Carmichael, about what to make of death when you had a complicated relationship with the person who has passed on. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

To our surprise, the OG coach Jessie Lee Ward agrees to an interview. She seems surprised to find out that Jane is not a fan of her work. It turns out that the feeling goes both ways. After ugly exchanges with Jessie Lee, Jane checks back in with her coach and with Dann. Has Jane actually improved as a person? Is she better or worse after six months of self-improvement?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Who does coaching work least well for? Turns out it’s the exact people who could benefit most from it, according to the industry. Dr. Sherman James and Dr. Arline Geronimus discuss the downsides of positive thinking, bootstrapping, and mindset culture. For some people, striving has negative impacts on health and happiness.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Who becomes a life coach? Jane talks to Patrick Sheehan, a researcher who has found a surprising answer: many coaches couldn’t find success elsewhere. Why do people who can’t do teach? We also learn more about Jane’s life coach, her bona fides, and what sets her apart from the scammers.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Neuro-linguistic programming, or NLP, is the communication technique used by coaches and cult leaders alike. John James Santangelo—a fan of Napoleon Hill— is an NLP expert who gives Jane a crash course. Jane is mesmerized, and according to Santangelo, might've even been hypnotized.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Now a life coach herself, Jennifer Rajala is lauded at Rankmakers; she’s a hustler who can inspire others to buy coaching packages better than just about anyone else. That is, until she realizes she’s selling empty promises.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Napoleon Hill, ever heard of him? He wrote "Think and Grow Rich," one of the favorite self-help handbooks of all time. His fans include Tony Robbins and life coaches of all stripes. But Napoleon Hill was not a genius of self-help. He was a scam artist who never practiced what he preached. Journalist Matt Novak tells Jane what he’s found (and what he hasn’t) about one of the biggest architects of modern coaching.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.