Manager Minute-brought to you by the VR Technical Assistance Center

What if helping people earn more could also bring valuable resources back to your VR agency? In this episode of Manager Minute, host Carol Pankow sits down with David Leon of Virginia DARS and the VRTAC to explore how Ticket to Work, Social Security reimbursement, and Partnership Plus can create opportunities for both individuals and VR agencies. David shares practical insights on choosing between cost reimbursement, Ticket payments, and hybrid approaches; making benefits counseling an ongoing part of the VR journey; and building partnerships that help individuals continue advancing in their careers after VR case closure. The conversation also highlights opportunities agencies may be missing—from using earnings data to identify potential reimbursements to building the staffing capacity and backup systems needed to sustain these efforts. The takeaway? Ticket to Work is about more than revenue. It is about helping people achieve greater financial independence while strengthening the agencies and partnerships that support them. Tune in for practical ideas that VR directors, counselors, fiscal teams, and community partners can put to work!   Listen Here Full Transcript   David: Most staff at the very least, learn the entry level introduction to disability benefits. Our staff know enough to reinforce a message of an expert. Look at a few years of data of the cases that leave above trial work earnings, but below substantial gainful activity. And you know, in Virginia, it's several hundred cases a year. If we could just move all of those cases from that level to above SGA, that'd be a game changer. And it would bring back a lot more money in cost reimbursement. Intro voice: Manager minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today is David Leon, my colleague on the VRTAC who also works with NDI and serves as director of workforce programs at Virginia DARS. David, you are a busy guy. How are things going your way? David: They're going great, Carol, thank you so much for inviting me to be a part of this discussion today. Carol: Yeah, I'm super excited about this. So for our listeners in our VRTAC team meetings, we have been talking about SSA reimbursement and the changes and opportunities that agencies are navigating. And we wanted to use this episode to just step back and look at the bigger picture, how Ticket to Work and other reimbursement pathways work, how they connect to VR's mission, and what agencies need in place to serve beneficiaries well. So we're going to keep this conversation kind of at a high level, because we think there's probably more here than we can cover in one episode, and we could probably do 2 or 3 more, but we're going to give it a go, and maybe we're going to have to do this part two, but David, I wanted to start with, how did you become the guy when we're talking about SSA reimbursement? David: Well, interesting years ago through CSAVR they had, committees. One of the committees was working with the Social Security Administration around implementing Ticket to Work and Partnership Plus and as a piece of that cost reimbursement. And so for multiple years when CSAVR structure had those committees, I was one of the folks doing a lot in that space. And directors are very, very busy. So I was sort of staff to that group and regularly setting up the meetings and then working with SSA and some of my colleagues in other states to create trainings for onboarding, for individuals who are going to manage the cost reimbursement side of the program.  For years if somebody new in a state VR agency if they were going to be administering the cost reimbursement part of the ticket program, they could go to the Social Security Administration in person and have a multi-day training by the people who adjudicate the claims that went away. And when that went away through CSAVR, we started creating a similar training. More from the lens of not what SSA wants you to know about how to do this work, but what do you really need to know from the people doing the work? And how can you work effectively with SSA and understand their rules? And that is kind of how I got started in this. Also, even though I started with VR after this rule came about in 2008, they changed some of the ticket to work regulations and allowed for something called Partnership Plus. And the agency I came to work for in Virginia was very focused on how we could leverage those partners to increase earnings and help people work their way out of poverty. Carol: Well, very cool because I, you know, even when I had started back at SSB and we were getting our Social Security reimbursement kind of rolling. Everybody was like, David Leon. I'm like, who's this guy? Because you're always looked at as like the guru. You're the Dalai Lama or something. Of Ticket to work. That cracked me up. I just wondered how it started. So let's go back to like, a little bit talking about Ticket to Work and the Work Incentives Improvement Act. Can you tell us kind of in a nutshell, what should be our agency's really understand about them? David: So the Ticket to Work and Work Incentive Improvement Act of 1999 was really developed to give individual SSA beneficiaries greater choice. It allowed for an established employment network so that an individual might not. If they didn't need to wait. If a state was in order of selection with categories closed, it allowed for individuals to have more choices to receive employment related services, and at the same time, it increased access to work incentives through. At the time, the WIPA project, which is a part of that. At the very beginning it was called the BPAO Benefit Planning Assistance and Outreach, and then it moved into the WIPA program. Basically the same thing. The acronyms changed a bit, and I think part of what VR agencies need to understand is an individual who receives Social Security benefits, is presumed eligible for our services, is exempt from financial participation and can come to VR. They still may be on a wait list, but because of the funding in place, there are other organizations that have chosen to participate in the Ticket to Work program who can serve those individuals and choose to receive ticket payments. David: So what it did was created greater participant choice in where they go to get back to work. At the same time as the program evolved, specifically with the changes in 2008 and the advent of Partnership Plus, it allowed for VR to look at this system very differently and create greater flexibility in how we manage and implement our own service delivery systems within VR. For example, if our state were in active order of selection right now with all categories closed, I might reach out to our Partnership Plus employment networks and talk about what can you do up front with someone to help them be more ready so that when we are ready to serve that individual, they're closer to quote unquote job ready status. Have more things in place so that we can minimize the overall length and period of VR service. And then ideally we would give that case back to the employment network that was working with them earlier. So I think part of what's exciting about this work, and it always changes, is the flexibility and ways to increase partnerships with other agencies who participate in the program. Carol: That is very cool. I had no idea about that. David: And there are a lot of great models and different states do it differently. I'll give a shout out. I know a lot of people reach out to me, but there's a lot of other really intelligent folks who have done great work and made the cool things we've done in Virginia even better. I look at some of the things Maryland has done, Pennsylvania, some of the things that are being done in Texas. There's some really great programs out there. Florida has an excellent model where they're doing both ticket payments and cost reimbursements, so their overall amount of money being returned to the agency is greater. Carol: Let's talk about that for a minute, because there really are kind of three main ways VR agencies can generate that program income. I hadn't really, I guess, realized that either, you know, primarily we were just focused on cost reimbursement, but you've got that cost reimbursement, ticket payments or the hybrid approach. What should agencies consider when choosing among them? And then you can continue to shout out the good agencies that are doing these different kinds of models. David: I think part of it, Carol, it depends on the size of the VR agency. It depends on the service approach. Does the VR offer all services in-house, in which case ticket payments may be more beneficial? Also, are there a lot of partner organizations that are functioning as employment networks that might create perceived competition, which might strain some of those relationships? Also, looking at average state wages, states that pay the federal minimum wage may have more difficulty identifying a high number of cost reimbursement claims. Does the state have fee for service benefits counseling or have in-house with staff? The other thing is a VR offering. In-house services may receive more program income by taking ticket payments rather than cost reimbursement. One way to look at some of this you can choose to take ticket payments, and the threshold for the early payments is less than nine months of working at above substantial gainful activity. So does it make sense to try to receive some money on a much larger pool of individuals, or a much larger amount of money on a smaller pool? And, and I think part of how you look at that is also looking at previous years of data, look at your exits and your second and fourth quarter earnings for people. Do you have a large pool of people who are exiting, working below trial work levels? Do you have people who are working above trial work, but below SGA do any of those individuals a year later move? And if not, those are ways you might look to decide. We are missing a lot of small payments on a significant number of people that could equal that amount of money you might receive from a few. But I think the other piece, and this is what's really important about and why I was excited to have this conversation with you. If you just look at the dollars and try to maximize the dollars, I think you're missing the purpose of why we're here and the intent of the Rehab Act, which is to promote economic self-sufficiency. And I think naturally, a director, a CFO is going to look at how can I have more dollars to provide services to more individuals. It's how we get the work done. It costs money. But also if we look at how can we help move more people on the continuum and career pathways to greater and greater levels of earnings than the other parts of that ticket to Work and Work Incentive Improvement Act come into play. And it's really about developing and thinking about your program and system from the lens of maximizing employment outcomes, which you know, is part of WIOA. It's why we look at that second and fourth quarter after exit earnings 100%. Carol: It just aligns really nicely with that. David: Yeah, I often have someone reach out and say, we need to get more money here. And obviously we want every dollar that VR is entitled to through these programs. But our system set up so that we're not just worried about every dollar today, but we're doing the things so that the individuals we work with can earn their maximum amount over time. And there's a reason that an employment network can get ticket payments for 60 months or 36 months, because it takes time. And I think we need to be as deliberate in how we design our systems and our states with that same thing in mind, that someone might not leave ready for that next step. But have we done the things that we can so that when that opportunity comes, they're confident enough to say, yes, I'm going to take that promotion, or yes, I'm going to work that ten more hours a week that you're offering me. And, and I think some of those pieces are a part of building a good program. And over time, it does lead to more money for the agency. Carol: So does your group, David, do they advise agencies at all? Like, do people call you and go, hey, you know, can you help us think this through? I just wonder where people go to figure that out. David: Yeah, there are a lot of different things. And it's funny, I get a lot of those calls when I'm wearing my TA hat. Carol: I'm sure you do. David: And usually the first thing is really, well, what are you currently doing? What do you do for someone that has benefits? Do you have in-house benefits counseling? Do you pay for benefits counseling? If you send an individual who has Social Security benefits to the project, how does the VR counselor working with that individual reinforce the message that you're better off working? Is there a connection there? I'd love to touch on some of what we've done in Virginia that works, and states do it differently. But, you know, we've created a system where most staff, at the very least, learn the entry level introduction to disability benefits. We have a handful of staff that have been trained through either VCU or Cornell. VCU just lost their WIPA contract for the technical assistance. So it's influx of what will happen there. But sometimes our staff have a very trusted relationship with their participants. And if our participant says something like, oh, well, I can only work X amount of hours because I don't want to lose a benefit. We wanted all the staff in Virginia to be conversant enough to say something like, I don't think that's correct. Let me get you to someone who can talk you through this, and who also is in a position that if they receive back a report, what we call a work world summary, they can say to the client, here is how you will be better off, and here's why. These certain benefits you're worried about can stay in place when it comes to expedited reinstatement or continued Medicaid while working1619b some of those things our staff know enough to reinforce a message of an expert, but in other states, someone might be sent to a person who does the benefits planning and then never include that information in future counseling and guidance sessions. And we have to remember that for the individual who receives benefits, they often had to apply and reapply for those benefits. They often might be a transition age youth whose parents had to fight for them to get benefits, whose parents had to fight for them to get the services outlined in their IEP in school. And so these benefits, they value them more and they hold on to them. There's a research that shows people experience physiological pain when they give up something that they perceive ownership of. It's called loss aversion. And it's part of something called prospect theory. And that's what's happening deep down in the brain at an unconscious level. When you talk to someone about, you can earn $42,000 a year in this job, but you might lose this check of $1,000 a month or whatever the check amount is today. And people irrationally value that check and that stability of that check more than the potential to move forward. And I think that's part of the value of having staff who are trained. You know, we have a lot of staff in Virginia who have master's degrees in rehab counseling, and we want them to be in a position to have a conversation where they can empower the person they're working with to feel good about the choice of moving towards economic self-sufficiency. Carol: Well, and I've always liked what you guys have done in Virginia because you embedded it. You baked it in your whole system. Like you baked it in the way you deliver VR. And I think for a lot of folks, I remember you and I having this conversation. I feel like we did a podcast around this a few years ago with the benefits planning. But I think a lot of people, they miss the boat because they think about it as a one and done. It becomes sort of that, you know, check the box of stuff we're providing for someone. Oh, we did that. We're good now. And there's no other point, you know, in the whole entire case that we're going to come back and revisit it. David: Yeah. And I will say it's one of the places where I love Maryland's model. Maryland has a fee for service model that includes multiple check ins, and they pay a higher amount for the service. But there's also an expectation that the individual is sort of worked with through the life of the VR case in a stronger way. I think that's a great model, and I wish I had a way to do that here. But there's also limited dollars. And I will say, we know our counselors are busy. There's a lot of boxes we have to check and. Carol: Right. David: And we don't get it right every time either. So there's always room to get better. Carol: So what other things do you think VR staff should keep in mind? You know, when you're working with people receiving SSI, SSDI, you know, and other types of benefits, especially when you're thinking around benefits planning, is there any other kind of. We've obviously said like, it's more than a one and done, but other stuff they should keep in mind. David: Yeah. So we have tried to, in the last few years, bring more specific financial empowerment, financial literacy into our work in Virginia. I think the way you frame the work matters. A lot of other services come into play. And often it's, I think, thinking through financial empowerment and self-sufficiency. When you're working with someone where a family might rely on that check and one family member going to work shifts, the amount of money coming in from that check. Are there ways to work with that individual in the family where some of the wages can be used to replace what the family lost? If you're working with someone who is transition age, set up a rental agreement. Hey, I want to teach you that if you're going to move out one day, rent is going to be a part of it. And maybe you can increase the family support by developing a system where some of that individual's wages go back to replacing what was lost in the check. And I think we've had some success with that in cases, but it's really a lot around those other services and knowing what's available in the community and what other needs they have. One of the things I like about our financial health assessment is it opens the door to different Conversations and while at the same time allowing early conversations when it goes well, when someone comes in to talk about needing a job or wanting a job, are counselors discussing earnings goals, the earnings goal of the job, even a part of the pipe development? And I think starting from a place of those are going to be parts of the discussion, helps shift it. And then the other part is and why it's different in each state. Resources are different. In some states, there is less of a need for VR to pay for certain types of services because they're free across the state for citizens. So there are places where community college is free and… Carol: right. David: …that may be changing what things look like in terms of if you are choosing to take ticket payments or cost reimbursement. And in Virginia, one of the things we really wanted to do was we wanted to strategically increase the financial resources coming into the state for our service providers. So a lot of the things we have chosen to do are directly related to how we could help our partners have an additional money from the Federal Ticket to Work program, because those organizations that provide follow along after a case closes. We have a state fund for some of that, but a lot of that ends up being unfunded. And if we can help a community rehab program in our state get an additional 100,000 or $150,000 a year in ticket revenue, they're going to be more likely to have stable staff. They're going to be more likely to consistently be able to provide the services we need, and it's going to make them stronger over time just from those standpoint. So a bunch of years early on, we really tracked how much was coming back to Virginia, and we focused on increasing our partnerships with centers for Independent living. Our community rehab programs and our workforce. Our American job centers and workforce boards. Carol: You guys have always been known for being such good partners. Like when I think of Virginia and I think of you, Virginia DARS, I think about just the partnerships and the really neat networks that you've built. And like you care about the common good so that it brings everybody up. David: Carol, one other thing, and I should have said this earlier. We also have to remember VR when we're doing our best work. We're going to be a time limited service and ticket and this program to help someone get to full economic self-sufficiency. That program for the individuals who receive Social Security benefits, can go on for 36 to 60 months after exit from VR. So it just to me makes sense that either we've figured out a model where we're going to provide ticket services after exit for those cases through a model, either a hybrid model, a ticket model in terms of how you're receiving payments, or if you're doing cost reimbursement and you have good partners, you're making sure that those individuals that have the potential to eventually get there have access to that support after VR closure. And another of the numbers I'd say would be really interesting for a state director to look at, look at a few years of data of the cases that leave above trial work earnings, but below substantial gainful activity. And, you know, in Virginia, it's several hundred cases a year. If we could just move all of those cases from that level to above SGA, it'd be a game changer. And it would bring back a lot more money in cost reimbursement. Carol: Are there other data systems or tools that you think could help agencies better understand all of this, and the employment outcomes and kind of the picture in their state? Are there other things people are missing the boat on? David: It all depends on how they're set up. The state verification exchange system is a really powerful tool to make sure you've identified all the individuals in your system that are SSA beneficiaries. Not everyone is going to show up in the standard way. A lot of times someone might not know they have benefits because mom or dad didn't say anything. There are also those individuals who don't have benefits when they start. Are you regularly checking those cases because someone might be awarded benefits or have benefits reinstated nine months, a year, 12 months after you open that case? So I think having a way of regularly checking to see if the individuals you're working with receive benefits, and then those that receive benefits after the plan, do you go back and make sure the counselor knows this because maybe it's time to have a new conversation. Hey, we noticed you just received benefit. Does this change what you want to do? Do you understand that now you will have additional requirements related to reporting your earnings to the state verification exchange system. We have access to some great tools in in Virginia, we use Alliance's case management system, and we use the J. Morrow ticket tracker for our cost reimbursement. We also use Social Security's Vocational Rehabilitation Certified earnings report. Affectionately known as the VRSER. We get quarterly reports from the state wage interchange system, our UI wage data. In the past, we've had access to the work number, which was a phenomenal tool. And right now in Virginia, we don't have access, but it's a great tool that can give you real time wages, and that also helps with successful closures. It also, when we had the work number, we used to use it with individuals that might have come in with a traumatic brain injury and couldn't remember their employers. And we'd be able to see a much more detailed list. So the other thing about some of this work is it can really play into a lot of different areas and not just kind of play into different areas, but however a state may have their cases delineated in terms of specialty caseloads, whether it's someone, if you have substance use disorder, caseload, serious mental illness caseloads across the board, people from any of those caseloads could have SSA benefits. And then the other thing related to these different data sources, are you checking them against each other? You know, there's a lot of ways to figure out if your data is good by looking for some of the where is it incongruent? So another data source we use a lot is the Social Security ticket portal. Sometimes something won't show up there and we'll see it in our state verification exchange system. And we'll write and say, hey, we think this person does have benefits. You know, it takes a few weeks, but you'll hear back, oh yes, this is great. We'll fix it and put the ticket in use with your agency. Carol: So the thing that comes to my mind, as you're saying all of this is I'm like thinking, okay, but you need somebody to do this. You know, there needs to be some attention paid in an agency to this whole area. It's not like it's going to take care of itself. I mean, even if you get the like the Morrow ticket tracker to help you submit claims, it still needs a human being, you know, to help do the things in your agency. What kind of staffing and internal practices really help agencies make the most of all these opportunities you've talked about and be able to actually implement a viable program? David: Yeah, it's a great question. And I think traditionally, Carol, in some states, it's a fiscal tech who is doing all of this work or they've delineated cost reimbursement is in our accounting and fiscal. And they're looking at it as not one holistic program. So what I would say in Virginia is it's a lot of work. You're looking at claims to make sure they're valid. If you submit claims, you've got to be able to respond to Social Security's requests for additional information in a quick time period. We have staff who, you know, I'm fortunate to have within my team, staff that work on the side of identifying claims, submitting claims, dealing with that. We have staff who also kind of are the triage. When somebody has a situation where they might be at risk of losing their benefits immediately, they can step in and do the work of a benefits planner. We have staff. That part of their job is when someone comes into VR and their ticket is assigned to someone else, part of their job is to make sure that we fix that, because one of the rules is if you're not checking these cases and someone's ticket is assigned to a competing employment network. You can't receive cost reimbursement. So that's one of the rules. That is every month when we run files through Social Security. A potential ticket cases, anyone that comes back where their ticket is assigned to someone else. We start the process to try to get that fixed, or to look at the plan and look at it as a comparable benefit, and what services we're going to provide that aren't in the other plan. Carol: So, David, I just wondered, are you still seeing that there are agencies that are not, you know, participating in this in any way? Like I remember back in the day being in Minnesota and we used to get this report and I could see other entities in our region and such who were never submitting any claims ever for years. Type of thing. Is that still the case? David: Yeah. So I think it's less and less. But part of what happens now and again as the program has evolved and we've learned more. Social security makes changes. The federal government makes changes. I think part of what happens is in a lot of states, someone gets really good at this work and they do the best they can. And maybe if someone asked me and I looked at their data, I might say, oh, I think you could get an extra half 1 million or $1 million a year over 3 to 5 years if you put some things in place, but they're able to do what they need, and that person leaves or that person changes jobs. And I think it's about it's complex work that if you're not intentional and you're not only building in succession planning, but I was working with a state because their person who's great passed away suddenly. And what that meant is all the things that weren't written down couldn't continue. But also because of the rules. If other people haven't gone through Social Security clearances and suitability process. They're not allowed to do the work, even if they did know the steps because they were outlined. So I think that's been a bigger issue and it takes a while to go through that process. So we have right now five people who have gone through suitability. And that means any of those five in a pinch could do this work. Carol: Wow. David: Like I just was able to hire a new assistant and that's going to be the next thing. She's been here a month. We're about to have her go through suitability just to make sure what that allows someone to do is access Social Security's portal and do the work in between your state system and the Social Security system to put in ticket payments, to put in assignability files, to unassigned cases, to address cases where they said, we think you can get paid for this, but we need you to justify this, or we need to see a copy of a signed type. And if suddenly somebody isn't there to do the work, you're not going to notice it. Maybe as a director for quite some time because and I think that's the other thing that is hard about this work, like changes and things you put in place today that might take resources away from somewhere else. Well, you feel that those resources are gone from somewhere else right away. You don't start seeing the gain and increase in your cost reimbursement maybe for six months or a year. So it's hard to get to the worth it in a quick way. And that's the way things are done in a lot of places. And, you know, that was in Virginia as well for a long time. The person who, when I was hired, I came in to learn from, there's one person and it was something that as I got up to speed, the first thing we did, and I was thankful that the person I worked for at the time right away understood this isn't a viable way to go forward. We had to have at least two. Carol: That in and of itself would be like a huge tip for people, because I know back in my old agency, I mean, we just had the one person. And as you know, the previous person had retired. And then getting her the clearance and all of the craziness you go through to get that, it's no small feat, you know. We just were like feeling so accomplished to have one, you know, get through that. But really a best practice would be you would always have a bench of at least two because somebody goes down. You've gotta have that backup. Otherwise you have a big gap in time. David: And really, Carol, what I would say these days is that you would have three people who have gone through suitability and that third, if nothing else, right? So like, I'm working with a couple of states here and there, and it's hard to know which of the suggestions are going to go, because I can say why. In my opinion, I think this will help. But having that person who you hope never has to do it because they're way too busy, which is why their staff to do the work. But again, you just never know. And if suddenly one person leaves, at the very least, you know that while you're filling a position, there's that second person that might be able to be go in and learn what has changed since when they went through the process, because changes are constant. Carol: Let me ask you this. So what would be a practical step that a VR director could take so that they actually make the serving of Social Security beneficiaries a more intentional part of their agency strategy? David: Yeah, it's a great question, Carol, and I think the first practical step would be for VR director to say, serving this population is critical to meeting the goals of the Rehab Act and our goals as an agency around WIOA and our RSA reporting in terms of maximizing second and fourth quarter after exit earnings, in terms of all the other little pieces. And once a director says that the other piece is asking the question of certain work groups. We recently moved our system to the cloud in Virginia. One of the things that was asked is, how does moving our case management system into the cloud, what could the effects be related to cost reimbursement? So we were able to have conversations throughout the process about, hey, we have to be able to keep these records longer. Yes, it's going to cost us more money. But also, we know at times we get paid for cases that close ten years ago. We want to make sure anybody that has Social Security benefits that we served, that we move more of those cases into the new system. And had we not been a part of those conversations, had my unit not been a part of that? Now, a year and a half later and we're in the cloud, our cost reimbursement could have gone down just from the fact that we wouldn't be getting payments on cases that closed in the time period. We didn't convert the cases to the new system. And so I think like a real practical step is, you know, we talk about VR counselor and a counseling program of non-malfeasance… Carol: right, Do no harm. David: If you have a good system, you might be doing something that's going to make 20 things much better. But have you also made sure it doesn't hurt this system? Because a lot of states still focus on this as a fiscal part. And this is an implementation side over here, and they don't work together. And I think making sure that those pieces work together and looking at SSA beneficiaries as, again, an intentional part of the agency's strategy. You know, another thing we've done in Virginia, at times when our service numbers were low right after Covid, well, there are partnership plus groups who are who participate in the Social Security Administration's beneficiary outreach marketing program. And we were able to work with those in Virginia that when they got a file and sent stuff to 10,000 participants that might be eligible. You know, those that called them back. We worked with them to say, hey, by the way, here's how you could refer directly to this office based on the zip codes you requested or the area. And so there's a lot of other ways you can leverage the program if you're working across your partners. And I just think it's important to think more broadly about that. Carol: I love that. So David, if people are wanting more information regarding this program, where do you suggest folks go? Even though I know it's been around a long time, do we have information out on the website or where do you want to send people? David: I'll say there are a few wonderful organizations that are each really good at the pieces that they represent nationally. There's the National Employment Network Association that focuses on employment networks. I think there are 2 or 3 VR staff who are on their board at this time. In fact, maybe one of them is even from Minnesota right now. So that is a great resource. It's inexpensive to join. There's a bi monthly ticket to work partnership plus on call where those groups meet together. NAB was the National Association of Benefits and Work Incentive Specialists, another great group, because again, these pieces fit together. CSAVR has a ticket to work cost reimbursement partnership plus monthly work group that has, you know, I helped start that and I don't get to be on that as often these days, but it really is now blossomed to most months, 50 to 65 people monthly get on that call. Social security has quarterly all VR calls, and the minutes for those are archived on their website. I'll be happy to make sure to include some of those links. And I know on the TAC web page, I think we put a lot of those resources there where you can see some of that information and get more of whatever specific pieces you need. Carol: For that website, you can go to VRTAC.org. David: Yes. Carol: we have a bunch of things out there. You must have done that, my friend. David: I looked it over. A lot of it was already there. Yeah, it's good stuff. Carol: Good stuff. Well, David, thanks for your time. I really appreciate it. And I know this has been keeping you busy and hopping in your TA role as well. So we appreciate you and look forward to continuing the conversation. Have a great day. David: Thank you very much, Carol. {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

What happens when a successful employer partnership becomes the start of something much bigger? In this episode of Manager Minute, Carol Pankow talks with Paul DiBello, Director of Business Services at Missouri Vocational Rehabilitation, about Missouri's Nexus network. What began with one collaborative group has grown to approximately 18 groups connecting VR, workforce and community partners, and businesses across the state. Paul shares how regular meetings, employer involvement, "Nexus Mission Moments," and a one-team approach have helped sustain the work—and why employers who experience success often become VR's most powerful ambassadors. During National Disability Employment Awareness Month, this episode celebrates the partnerships and practices that create meaningful employment opportunities and keep opening doors for people with disabilities. Listen Here Full Transcript {Music} Paul: The Nexus, it's really a collaboration of community partners and local businesses. We started, like I said, with one, and I think we're up to 18 different groups now. Once you have that one success story with a candidate and business, it can really snowball into that business sharing nexus with other businesses. We've seen that where they call their friends at other businesses and say, hey, you've got to check this out. These folks have a talented pool of candidates or you can learn about resources. I have to say, word of mouth is still a great marketing tool in this business. Carol: That's good stuff. Intro voice: Manager minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Well, welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today is Paul DiBello, Director of Business Services at Missouri Vocational Rehabilitation. How are things going in Missouri, Paul? Paul: Things are going great, Carol. Thanks for asking. Carol: Awesome. Good to have you. Well, October is National Disability Employment Awareness Month, and this conversation offers a wonderful opportunity to recognize not only the contributions of workers with disabilities, but also the partnerships and practices that help create meaningful employment opportunities. And what makes today's story really interesting is that it began nearly a decade ago, back in 2017. Missouri VR shared with our old WINTAC grant how the agency was collaborating with workforce partners and employers to strengthen business engagement across the state. And so nine years later, my colleague Doug Keast circled back to see what happened, and he freaked out. He's like, Carol, you have got to call Paul. He's got to be on a podcast. And Doug had found that it wasn't simply that the work had continued, but it had expanded, it matured. It was even more deeply embedded in your system. And so today, Paul is joining to talk about how that collaboration grew and what helped to sustain it, and what the rest of you listeners can learn from this. So let's dig in. So, Paul, can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you came into the VR world? Paul: Sure. It's kind of a little bit of a curvy road for me, to be honest. My undergrad degree was in music education, and actually I was a high school band director for a couple of years, then followed my new wife out to Virginia. She got a job in her field, and we lived out there for a while, and I somehow got into accounting. So I went back to   school and got an accounting degree and worked for a couple of fortune 500 companies out there over the course of about eight years, and then three kids and a dog and a cat later, we decided we lived too far from family. So we moved back to Missouri, closer to family and I ended up getting a job with the job center, actually with our WIOA title one Youth folks. So I started there and really fell in love with the work. I started there as a Youth Job developer in the Job Center, and then later became an assistant Youth Program Coordinator for all of our youth services within the 19 counties in central Missouri, under the Workforce Board there. And it was kind of it was at that time that I really started to get to know a little bit about VR services. I have to give a shout out to my good friend and Missouri VR coordinator programs doctor Elizabeth Perkins. I partnered with her back then. She was actually a VR counselor, and she would come into the job centers and work a day or two there, take customers there. So we got to know each other real well. I learned more about VR. We started to partner on some things and it really opened, kind of opened my eyes to how awesome VR is. I'm just going to say it's different and I love all of our Workforce partners, but there's something special about VR counselors. So anyway, kind of fell in love with it then, but again, kind of a curvy path. My next stop, I worked as an EO officer for the central region. So I actually worked directly for the workforce board. And there I got to work on our state's non-discrimination plan and got to do some disability projects and stuff with partners. So a little bit closer to VR there. And then I was recruited as a actually a statewide job center provider for one of our WIOA program providers who also was a community rehabilitation provider. So even a little closer to VR, because I got to work on some contract management, and I was actually the assistant director of workforce programs for that company. So got to see both sides, the job center side and the CRP side. And then finally, in July of 2019, there was a VR job became open. And Elizabeth kind of encouraged me to apply for it. It was actually in procurement. So I started, then got to move into some case management stuff and then round about all the way back to business services where I started with WIOA. So that's where I am now. Carol: Holy smokes, you did take a long and winding road with a stop off with an accounting degree. Like where did that come out of the blue? Paul: Really weird. Carol: I love it. We're gonna have to bring you over to our fiscal management community of practice. Paul: Ok, that sounds fun. Carol: Yeah. You're like, no, I got out of that. I don't want to do that. That's awesome. So I know you weren't in Missouri in 2017, actually at the VR agency, but you were doing things out and about. So what was Missouri trying to accomplish back then? If you could like, put on that view from way back through that collaborative business engagement? Paul: Yeah. And I do remember even I wasn't with VR. I do remember how things were starting to come together back then. It was really just building partnership with WIOA partners. And it was through the development of a really a state level workforce system business committee, I guess you would call it didn't really have a formal name back then, but VR helped kind of host events with WIOA partners. And that's also where I got to know VR a little better, too, through some of that, to survey businesses together kind of as a team. And this eventually developed one of the very first lasting collaborative business and community engagement Nexus groups. And I think we're going to talk about Nexus here soon, but that was in the Kansas City area, and it consisted of monthly meetings that kind of brought community partners together with businesses to expand employment opportunities. And this would be for individuals with any barriers to employment. So it wasn't just focused on disabilities, but that was part of it. It was a great way to get all that collaboration with all of our state agency and partners. And then we really realized like, just so, you know, like the word nexus, we realized we wanted a system that was defined really by the very definition of the word nexus. And according to Merriam-Webster, nexus is a connection link or tie between people or things. It can also mean a central hub, or the core place where multiple parts of a system meet and come together. So that's really what we wanted for our state workforce system, just to have some really solid partnerships and where we were working together as a team. So that's kind of what was going on then. Carol: I love that. So nine years later, you look at, okay, what's changed the most for you guys? Paul: I would have to say, first of all, for VR, we've expanded our business team from, I think it was about three members. I'm not I wasn't there yet, but we have expanded to seven, which is huge for us. It gives us the ability to really get out across every region of the state and our VR business services team. It's really gained more clarity in our responsibility in terms of providing that menu of individualized and relevant services to meet those dual customer needs. So in essence, I think above all else, we've focused on being strategic connectors between VR, the workforce system, businesses, and then ultimately our dual customer, our clients as well. Carol: I know talking to Doug, he said, in talking to other people, like you guys have been able to sustain and move this stuff along. Like you not only started it, but you've made this even better. That is not the case everywhere there have been starts and stops, and it almost seems like with WIOA, you know, people went in great gangbusters and then it kind of petered out in some places. But you've been able to really sustain and strengthen the work over time. What helped you guys to be able to do that? Paul: Some of it was, I guess, probably trial and error, but definitely just continued development and expansion of these partnerships. Our blind agency Rehabilitation services for the blind. Our sister agency was a huge part of that too. And then really just working with the local Workforce boards and the Job Center staff, I know that it helps, you know, with our infrastructure agreements with the Workforce boards and making sure that because, you know, I don't always think of Missouri as I know some states are more of a one stop where people are actually under the same roof. We are not that, but we really do try to partner very closely. And those infrastructure agreements with Workforce really helped make sure there was a place for our counselors and our business folks to be under the same roof some days of the week and things like that. So I think that helped strengthen just partnerships in general. And then our employment Nexus groups, as they started to grow, just played a huge role in maintaining the partnerships. In a way, having these regularly monthly collaboration meetings have kind of built a mechanism for continued contact and communication. So I don't want to say it's forced, but it's there every month. Like we have these meetings every month and we're going to see these folks. And so we might as well work together. And it's just taken off in a really good way. Carol: Well, since you keep bringing up Nexus, we might as well talk about that next. Paul: Okay. Carol: How does that Nexus model really work at the local level? Paul: Nexus, it's really a collaboration of community partners and local businesses. We started, like I said, with one, and I think we're up to 18 different groups now. So we are very close to having all 114 counties in Missouri covered by at least one Nexus group, which I think is outstanding. And that's been our goal for the last few years to just really expand it and give opportunities for everyone in every county. Basically, there's a statewide planning committee, which is basically all of the local Nexus group planning committees, and we have a quarterly call and meeting. But as far as the local meetings go, there's a small planning committee and then there's a monthly meeting schedule and it's always it's the same time, same day every month. A typical agenda. It's open to all. We really try to invite an employer or a partner to do somewhat of a formal presentation, you know, on what they have to offer. And then there's usually an open forum where people can ask questions, and then we invite as many businesses as we can to join as well. And then there'll be time for networking and also time for those businesses to report out and tell us what they need. What are they seeing on the ground? What kind of candidates are they looking for? What kind of problems are they having that we might be able to solve? And then a real big part of those meetings are what we call Nexus Mission Moments. We actually establish a time toward the end of the meeting where people can kind of report out, like how Nexus has helped them. And it could just be a connection, it could be a connection to a candidate or maybe an existing employer with its existing employees that found out about a program that can help their employees. And those are the best. Because when you have a new partner or a new employer on the call or in the room, they hear that. And then it's kind of like, okay, what's in it for me? Well, that might be in it for me. So all of those things together have really that makes up what a Nexus meeting is. And we've just been able to, to keep the movement going. And every month we do them. So it's good. Carol: Well, I'm sure that your states, like other states where you have different sectors and different regions, like every state is different. You know, you have different parts that maybe there's more manufacturing or you might have more other kind of agricultural industry or whatever's going on depending on the quadrant of the state. And so I'm just thinking about those employer needs that are in those different areas. How do those employers in those specific regions really help shape the work of the Nexus team? Are they intricately involved? I know you've alluded to some of this, but is there something really direct that they do? Paul: Yeah. well, I can say in a few of our groups They are on the planning committees, which is great. Mercy Health and Saint Louis is a huge partner with VR and they're a great inclusive hiring partner. But yeah, they're actually on the planning committees and bring other employers with them. So that's good. And then as far as the regions, yeah, sometimes we can specialize a little bit if we're in a more rural area or an area where there's a lot of manufacturing, then we're going to be able to bring those employers into the fold and show them that, you know, we do have a talented pool of candidates that can help them. Yeah. Carol: I like it, I like it. So how is this collaboration expanded opportunities for people with disabilities? Paul: Well, I think it's created great partnerships with employers first of all. And we at VR, we might have otherwise overlooked some of those employers, to be honest, that show up for these meetings. We also at the same time, we're connecting our agency to other area partners that have complementary services, which can also help our clients. We've been able to set up company tours for entire Nexus groups, which has been awesome. You know, a company will actually invite the whole Nexus group to. Maybe we might even meet on their campus, get a tour. Learn more about a business. That way we can come back to our vocational rehabilitation counselors and clients and tell them about that. And then in some cases, we've learned about like new resources available by some local area community agencies, like community action agencies and things like that that can directly also help our clients. Nexus groups, they've partnered together to hold reverse job fairs and other events. So that's becoming a kind of a big thing. And we call them talent showcases in Missouri. But probably most importantly, I think VR has had the opportunity to educate our partners and employers just on the advantages of hiring from a talent pool of qualified individuals with disabilities. It's just a bigger audience. So it's been great. Carol: So what kind of results or changes tell you that this approach is working for you. Paul: I think anecdotally, repeat business customers as well as new business customers in attendance at our Nexus meetings in general, to me, is a huge indicator that we've made progress with relationships and partnerships. The ability to have a single point of contact within Nexus also is really big. If that works best for an employer and they've requested that we can do that within a Nexus group itself, so business can come to a Nexus meeting and basically learn all the ways our wioa partners can serve them, you know, at one meeting sometimes. Most importantly, I think we've gained access to businesses that we know are interested in our candidate pools because they return. And I can say beyond anecdotally, our employer services have increased, you know, that we would record as a direct result of attending Nexus groups and making these newfound partnerships. And I can also say, once you have that one success story with a candidate and business, it can really snowball into that business sharing nexus with other businesses. We've seen that where they call their friends at other businesses and say, hey, you've got to check this out. These folks have a talented pool of candidates, or you can learn about resources, all the things. So I have to say, word of mouth is still a great marketing tool in this business. Carol: That's good stuff. So what advice would you give another VR agency that would like to build this kind of network? I know folks have struggled like there's been this starts and stops or they're all in and then it all like kind of peters out. What advice do you have for folks? Paul: I think really building a solid foundation with your community partners and other agencies is paramount. If you start a group like Nexus or that kind of a working group with some of our Nexus groups, we had more than one initial planning meeting for networking and just to really get to know our agency partners and how they serve customers and just really get to know each other intimately before we even invite businesses to the meetings. I just think it really helps to start with like a genuine partnership where you leave like any territorial issues at the door, so to speak, and just present the group as a united team that's just simply there to serve the needs of employers without worrying about who gets the credit. It just needs it really needs to be a one team approach. And that's what's I think worked for us and kept employers coming back. I think they do recognize that. Carol: I like it. Well, and it feels like to Missouri's Workforce system is really cohesive, you know, and I'm sure looking at the role that you all are playing as part of that big network. What do you think that looks like today, maybe compared to before? Like, as you've grown this over the years, that leadership role that Missouri's taken in the Workforce system? Paul: Hmm. I think, uh, are you saying Missouri or VR? Carol: I'm talking about Missouri VR within the bigger Workforce system. Because I know you all seem to drive a lot of things that are going on down there. Paul: Yeah, I think just the growth of our Nexus groups in particular, VR can take some credit for that, for sure. And that was part of that was expanding our business services team. But we've really, really made that a priority for ourselves and our partners. Carol: And I'm sure Chris Claus, your director, who is like amazingly astute and thoughtful and loves partnering, has been a big champion for all the work that you're doing. Paul: He has been a huge champion for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Carol: Well, as we recognize National Disability Employment Awareness Month, what do you hope employers and workforce professionals take away from Missouri story? Paul: I will say for us, partnership has been just the key to success in Missouri. Don't take your WIOA and other community partners for granted. Together as a team, honestly, we've learned so much from each other and once our partners understand the way we can help our clients with disabilities and get to share in some of the successes, they really only want to contribute more. And I think that goes for our partners and our employer, partners and businesses. Carol: Good stuff. Paul, Missouri story reminds us that meaningful disability employment, it's not created through just one event, one program, or one agency working alone. It really grows through those relationships that are built locally, supported statewide and sustained over time. And you all have done a bang up job. I really appreciate having you on today. Thanks so much. Paul: Thank you. {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

VR doesn't just have a vacancy problem. It has a pipeline problem. What if the answer to VR's workforce shortage isn't simply filling the next vacancy? Across the country, VR agencies are competing for talent, losing experienced staff, and trying to prepare a new generation of professionals—many of whom may not even know that VR is a career option. In this episode of the Manager Minute, George Michna of Connecticut and Mario Lucero of New Mexico join Carol Pankow to talk about a different approach: intentionally building the VR workforce pipeline. Drawing from their National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute (NRLI) project, George and Mario explore how career pathways, mentorship, apprenticeships, stronger onboarding, and leadership development can help agencies move from reacting to vacancies to developing talent for the long term. They also tackle an equally important question: once we bring talented people into VR, what makes them want to stay? If your agency is thinking about recruitment, retention, succession planning, or developing its next generation of leaders, this conversation is worth a listen.   Listen Here Full Transcript {Music} George: One of the biggest values of NRLI was the opportunity to step outside of your day to day work and to engage with colleagues, people who eventually become good friends of yours that live across the country, who are dealing with many of the same challenges. Mario: We've really invested hard in our leadership team, and we're seeing the results of that now. We got out of a cap. We're really making positive progress towards meeting our performance metrics. We have a way better understanding of our data, and now we're really focusing on leadership and culture within our agency.   Intro voice: Manager minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today are George Michna, Bureau Chief for Community Living from Connecticut Bureau of Rehabilitation Services, and Mario Lucero, Field Operations Director for New Mexico General. So, George, how's it going in Connecticut? George: It's going good. Actually, the weather's finally holding it up here, so it's kind of nice to finally enjoy. Hopefully, a really nice summer. Carol: Yeah, that is awesome. I know we've all been talking a lot about the weather in Minnesota. It's hot and sultry. It was 95 yesterday so you never think of that here. And Mario was so great to have you here as well. How are things on your end in New Mexico? Mario: Thanks for having me, Carol. We're doing good here in New Mexico. Had a little bit of rain the last two weeks, which is really welcomed because we have been so dry and we have problems with forest fires here in New Mexico. So any rain that we get is welcome. So we're doing well. Carol: Well, I never think of New Mexico and forest fires. I'm sorry Mario, I just think of you as being more deserty. But I know you have trees. I know you have... Mario: We do. Carol: So today we're going to talk about a topic that's coming up across the country and it's the workforce challenges in vocational rehabilitation. And George and Mario, part of a cohort from the National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute, or NRLI, which is a leadership program that brings together emerging leaders from across the VR system to take on some of the field's biggest challenges. And as part of that experience, their group developed a project focused on career pathways as a strategy for recruitment and retention in VR. And we're going to unpack what they found and why it matters right now. So let's dig in. So let's start with each of you. How did you get into VR and what has kept you in this work? And Mario, I'm going to go to you first. Mario: Thanks, Carol. Well, for me, vocational rehabilitation is always aligned with who I am personally and professionally. I've spent my life around ministry, teaching, and helping professions. My father was both a minister and a teacher, and I think that shaped how I view people and purpose. I also live with significant physical disabilities myself, so I understand firsthand the importance of opportunity, independence, dignity, and meaningful work. VR gave me the opportunity to turn that into a lived experience and into a career where I could help others overcome barriers and pursue employment goals they may have once thought were impossible. What's kept me in this work is honestly the mission. We're not just processing cases or authorizing services. We're helping people build lives, support families, and regain confidence in themselves. You get to see real transformation in people's lives, and that's hard to walk away from once you've experienced it. Carol: I love that, Mario, Thanks for sharing that. George, how about you? George: So my pathway into vocational rehabilitation started in education. I was a special education teacher, later taught pre-service teachers. It was also a school administrator and then worked for the Connecticut State Department of Education. A lot of it has just been through those roles is that one thing that became clear that we put a lot of effort into supporting students while they're in school, but there's a disconnect. when it came to what happened after they exited school. So students would graduate, but the transition to employment or post-secondary pathways was not always strong or consistent. And I think that's really what drew me into vocational rehabilitation. It's one of the few systems that is specifically designed to bridge that gap between education and employment. And I think that what's really kept me here is both the impact and the work that we do. You see real outcomes when someone moves into employment and independence. And in my current role, I'm focused on kind of how those systems connect, both on the employment side and within community living, as well as education through a grant that we're running. So that's really kind of what's kept me engaged in the work, and just having those meaningful conversations with individuals about finding success in their lives. Carol: Yeah, I had no idea about you. George: Yeah. Carol: Being an educator, that is very cool. It's always fun to see people's stories and how they get into this sort of a career. Appreciate that. So I know you both participated in NRLI, and I just wondered if you could tell our listeners a little bit about what that experience was like. And how did that shape your thinking as a leader? And George, I'll tag you first on that. George: First and foremost. NRLI gave me the opportunity to step outside of my state and look at vocational rehabilitation from more of a national perspective. We were teamed with about, I think, 30 individuals or so as our cohort, and they represented both VR, general VR Blind and also combined agencies. And so you really get a mix of perspectives from individuals. And I think that's really powerful. And the other thing was, is that what really started finding, for example, was, is that, you know, you start looking at issues with your workforce, challenges that you might have, bringing in counselors and the like, and you start finding out that others are facing similar challenges. So you're able to have these kind of sidebar conversations throughout the time that you spent together. And you really get to learn from individuals about what other states are doing and how to kind of effectively problem solve. Mario: And NRLI was an incredible experience because it forced us to step back and think beyond just our own state systems and day to day operations. You're sitting in a room with leaders from all over the country who are dealing with many of the same challenges, but often approaching them in different ways. For me personally, it challenged me to think more strategically and systemically as a leader, instead of only asking, how do we solve today's problem? It pushed me to ask, how do we build sustainable systems for the future? One of the biggest takeaways for me was realizing that many of our workforce challenges in VR are not isolated problems, they're national trends. That realization helped reinforce the importance of collaboration, innovation and leadership development across the entire VR system. Carol: Well, I think we're definitely better together. NRLI, I love that bringing that sense of community because you can feel very isolated, you know, in your individual states and your agencies, and you learn how to do things a certain way. So you guys bring up a good point. You know, you hear other people with the same challenges, but they've tackled them differently. And so I love that kind of that transplanting of ideas that happens naturally through that cohort model. And you get, you know, you're with your group a whole year and you really get to know people. And I think that transplanting of ideas and that building that network that you can rely on later, because I'm sure you probably each have like email groups and all of that good stuff or chat groups with your folks from NRLI that you can just like, hey, we have this going on. What do you know about this? Or what are you guys doing? I think there's a lot of value in that. So I know as part of NRLI, your group focused on workforce and career pathways. How did you guys come up with that as your project? George: Well, I gotta say this, it wasn't a project that we landed on right away. The way NRLI is structured, we do have multiple weeks that we meet across the year, and we also had opportunities to connect virtually to work through how the paper would shape out. Really, in the beginning, it was a lot of brainstorming where we were sitting, you know, outside by the pool on a break. And I still remember this to this day. And we went around the group just kind of mentioning some of the hot topics that we had and what were we thinking about. And really kind of what we started coming back to was the same issue was kind of a staffing piece. And I think that's kind of where we ended up thinking about the staffing and then kind of what solutions could we bring from our various states to address that? And I guess from a point of view, it was kind of a self-discovery process of the group in realizing what to write about. Carol: Very cool. I love that organic. I know. Other groups too. They said they struggled like they might have come up with a particular topic. And then they were like, hey, we don't want to do that anymore. And they kind of move through the year and got exposed to different things. Other ideas came forward and they pivoted to something else. George: I would say that was exactly the same experience that we had, and almost feeling at some point that we had to figure out something because time was running out. Mario: I still remember that first day that you said when we sat around the pool and we were just brainstorming and we threw out like 50 million ideas. I think how we finally settled on career pathways and recruitment and retention was that we saw that this was a problem that we could realistically solve. We didn't want to bite off too much that we couldn't chew. And so we thought that maybe this was something that we could have an actual impact on. Carol: So Mario, a little more about that. You know, it's a problem you were trying to solve. Why do you think this is so important right now. Like what's going on? Give it kind of the picture of what's happening out there. Mario: Well, you know, Carol, the biggest problem we identified was that vocational rehabilitation is facing a workforce pipeline issue at a time when demand for services continues to grow. Across the country agencies are struggling with vacancies, burnout, retirements and turnover. At the same time, fewer people are entering the field intentionally because many people simply don't know that VR exists as a career pathway that creates a long term sustainability problem for the public VR system. What made this especially important to us is that workforce shortages don't just affect agencies internally, they directly impact the participants that we serve. Vacancies can lead to delayed services, increased caseload sizes, and less capacity for innovation and individualized support. So our group started asking instead of only reacting to vacancies after they happened, how do we intentionally build built pathways that introduce people to VR earlier. Developing future talent and creating opportunities for long term career growth within agencies that shift from reacting to shortages to proactively developing talent really became the foundation of our project and our paper. Carol: Nice. So what are you guys seeing right now across the states in terms of the staffing shortages and turnover? I just wondered if there's been any kind of movement where it's getting a little bit better. I just, what did you find out. George: When we looked at the work, kind of to build out the paper, we were seeing kind of a consistent piece where I think states were kind of dealing with this combination of persistent vacancies and high turnover, and that some states are, you know, obviously making a little bit of better progress in that. I think, you know, going back to looking at with Connecticut, I came to our agency on the heels of the Covid 19 pandemic. If you think about it, about five years ago, I was coming out of that rebounding. From that, we saw individuals with disabilities wanting to get back into employment. So you had this influx of people requesting services, but what you saw on the staffing side from the agency was, is that we had a lot of staff that either retired early or had kind of exited the employment of the agency. And so we were in the process of trying to refill those positions as we could. And we've done a really good job at that. But the implication of that is, is that we now shifted the agency from a mid to late career group of counselors to a workforce that's now more heavily weighted towards early mid-career staff. And that has implications for us because newer counselors often require smaller caseloads and more support to kind of ensure the quality services, as well as trying to ensure how do we prevent burnout among those staff as well? Also, what's happening is, is that we're seeing an added strain on our community rehabilitation providers in the state, and we see them as a critical part of the service delivery system. And so this now speaks to kind of the broader system that how can it then support individuals in achieving career goals? So that's kind of the perspective here in Connecticut. Carol: Here you bring up a really good point, George, you know I hadn't thought about that with the newer counselors coming in. I guess just the way you had stated it and having people earlier in their career, you are shaping then you have in a smaller caseload, which impacts then your overall capacity for serving folks. So when you have a big bulk of people in that early part, even though you have the same number of people, they can't produce the same amount of work. George: Exactly. Carol: Yeah, you always need exponentially more folks to carry that out. And it takes a while. This system is hard, like to learn and understand and really feel like you're getting good and proficient at it. So we've kind of lost those later career counselors that were also serving as mentors and such. And I know in some states people are saying like, hey, we've got a whole new group. You've got 90% of your people have been there five years or less. You don't have that other group that can help to support them. George: You know, it kind of then impacts your ability for supervisors to effectively mentor those staff because the added impact on them as well. So the entire system starts feeling that strain. Carol: Yeah, it's really a ripple effect for sure. So I know you guys have mentioned before that people don't always choose VR as a career. So why does that matter for recruitment? Mario: It matters because many of us in VR didn't grow up saying, I want to work in VR someday. Most people find this field accidentally through counseling programs, disability services, workforce programs, social work, education, or even personal life experiences such as myself. The challenge with that is that people don't know the profession exists. They're never going to intentionally pursue it. Other helping professions like teaching, nursing or social work. They have clear career pathways and pipelines and stronger public awareness. VR doesn't have that. So VR agencies are competing for talent in a field that many potential candidates never even heard of. That's why career pathways and apprenticeship models are so important. They create exposure. They allow students, paraprofessionals, community partners, and individuals with lived disability experience to see VR as a meaningful career option before they're already established somewhere else. I think the field has a huge opportunity here, especially because VR work is incredibly mission driven, that once people understand what we actually do and the impact we have, they'll be drawn to it, and the challenge is getting them exposed to it early enough. Carol: Well it does really fit with our new administration. I mean, maybe not so new with our president now he's, you know, in his year two, but very big emphasis on apprenticeships and career pathways. And so it lines up with the administration's thinking on that as well. George, I know you've had a little touch with this. What would it look like, kind of the career pathway and apprenticeship model in a VR agency. George: in Connecticut, we're starting to put together a formalized kind of mentorship program, if you will, where we're bringing in staff within our community, rehabilitation providers, where we can then provide a structured mentorship for them to kind of upskill their knowledge of working within kind of the VR space. The hope there is, is that they can gain experience in the areas like eligibility, plan development, employer engagement, and being able to kind of have that mentorship and feedback that's built into the process. And so our hope really is, is that kind of, you know, if you think about this as about opening the door wider at the front end, so that way we can become more intentional about how we develop staff once they're within our agency or within a provider. Again, this isn't about just simply filling positions. It's more about creating a pathway where someone can enter the field, develop the necessary skills over time, and see a future in the work. And I just want to say, you know, to your question before, if I can, I'm kind of a perfect example here because coming in from education, right? At no point in my kind of career trajectory was vocational rehabilitation presented as kind of a viable option for what I was doing. But an interesting note here is, is that within our NRLI cohort, and I was thinking about this, you know, in kind of getting ready for this podcast, there was at least three other individuals who started in special education and eventually ended up in VR. So I think there's something powerful there in terms of how we think about where we can draw upon individuals to help do the work that we're doing. Carol: Absolutely. There definitely is a natural alignment there. I know back in the day, even in Minnesota, there was a while where school districts were laying off school counselors because they didn't have the funds. And we found that the school counselors had such a interesting background in the training they had that was super transferable over into VR because they're helping students think about employment goals. You know, think about all of that and then that group of people and you're like, why didn't we think of this before and had some really lovely staff come in from that background. I love that. Yeah, it's smart to think about what we align with. Now, I know in NRLI, the fourth week is always the DC week and that can be super impactful. You get to meet the, you know, agency kind of heads from all different, you guys were at Labor and Department of Ed with the Rehab Services Administration. Did you guys have an opportunity at all to share your work and get any sort of feedback from the feds about what you were working on here with this paper? Mario: Yeah, we did. We had the opportunity to discuss our project and our paper and engage with leaders and stakeholders who are thinking about these same workforce challenges. One of the encouraging things was that the feedback we got really validated that this issue is being felt across the country. People recognize that recruitment and retention challenges are not just temporary, they're systemic issues that require long term strategies. And there was strong interest in the idea of developing intentional career pathways and apprenticeship style models because they create a more sustainable workforce pipeline instead of relying solely on traditional recruitment methods. I also think people appreciate that our approach focused not just on filling vacancies, but on developing leaders, increasing retention and creating growth opportunities within the VR agencies. That's important because recruitment and retention really go hand in hand. Bringing people in is only half the battle. You also have to create environments where people want to stay and grow, right? Carol: Yeah. Excellent point Mario, because if you bring people in and they don't stay, you just have a churn that's not going to help anything. You've got to create that inviting, welcoming, wonderful environment that people can learn and grow. Because that's what lots of our, you know, our young people coming in, they aren't coming to the state to just work for 40 years like maybe their parents had or someone else. They want a job they can grow into. Mario: And to add to that, Carol, I've been in the field of VR for almost 19 years now. I can remember going back to the early 2000, when a lot of the people in VR had a master's in VR, and there were plenty of people within the field offices to mentor new counselors coming in. But ever since the mid 20 tens, you know, WIOA came out, that's really dwindled. And we have people with less and less experience and really nobody to mentor. And as George mentioned, really heavily, depending on the program managers to be those mentors and trainers, It's just too hard because they're also having to drop below their 3000-foot level, down to the 1500 zero foot level to take on case load work, you know? Carol: Right. Mario: And he's not able to provide that mentorship as well as we maybe once did in VR in previous generations. Carol: Yeah, we got to look at this in a whole different way. So speaking of looking at this, looking ahead, what's one change you guys hope to see in the VR workforce because of this work? And George, I'm going to throw it to you first. George: It's like the million dollar question right? Carol: Yes. Drum roll. George: Drum roll. (laughter) George: I think the biggest thing I would like to see is a shift in how we think about building the vocational rehabilitation workforce. And what I mean by that is, is that a lot of energy goes into reacting to vacancies and trying to fill positions quickly. And I think what we really need to do, kind of what Mario was mentioning earlier is, is that, you know, building something that looks a little bit more intentional that we have these clear pathways into the field. We have strong mentorships, better onboarding, and real opportunities for growth over time. And I also think that I'm really hoping that we are able to continue strengthening the professional identity of VR. This is incredibly meaningful work for anyone that does this. It truly sits at the crossroads of education, workforce development, disability services, employment, and a host of other things. But what's kind of unfortunate is, is that a lot of individuals are just not aware about the field or the impact that it can have. So it's kind of an interesting paradox, and I would love to see individuals more intentionally choose VR as a career because of how powerful the mission is. I think Mario had mentioned that before about a mission, and I think that that kind of holds true there. If I had a wish, I guess that's what it would be. Carol: I love it. Mario, how about you? Mario: Well, if I could say ditto, I would. But what George and I have said today is that our paper and our project, we wanted to be more intentional about workforce development within the VR system. We'd love to see students, interns, apprentices, and professionals from all related fields become aware of VR much earlier in their careers. We also hope that agencies continue building cultures that invest in mentorship, leadership development, and professional growth so employees can see long term futures within the system. But ultimately, we hope this work helps strengthen the stability of the VR workforce because when agencies are fully staffed, supported and developing future leaders, participants receive better services and better outcomes. And at the end of the day, that's what we're really all about, right? Carol: Absolutely. I think it'd be super cool if somebody came up and did this and came up with that. Like the registered apprenticeship for this, for the VR program, if someone took that on and, and did the thing because it would set the way for the rest of the country. And who knows, you could end up getting some credentials there, Mario and George, You know that you could report on your common performance measures and all of that. I think it would be pretty incredible. Okay. I'm going to throw you guys one last question. I wanted just to circle back to NRLI. I know we have lots of listeners and people are on the fence about whether, you know, to do something or make that investment because it is an investment of time and money for that year. In doing that kind of training, do you have any kind of little parting comment or little plug you could do for NRLI? And George, I'm going to throw out to you first. George: To me again. Oh boy. All right Mario, you can't say ditto. Okay. Without a question, 100% hands down. I would recommend it. I can't even talk enough about it. It was an amazing experience. You're absolutely correct, Carol, it is a lot of work. There certainly are some time constraints, me being on the East Coast, for example, having to go out to San Diego three times a year and then DC also, you know, just kind of the impact on terms of like how you can do your normal job, right? And as well as kind of your personal and family commitments. But I think we said this earlier was, is that one of the biggest values, if you will, of NRLI, was the opportunity to step outside of your day to day work and to engage with colleagues and actually people who eventually kind of become good friends of yours that live across the country, who are dealing with many of the same challenges. We have text groups, we kind of have friended each other on social media. And, you know, we're kind of, you know, shooting questions back and forth to each other to this day. And I think that speaks a lot to what NRLI can give to an individual. So it's certainly about value and relationships and this national network of individuals that are still kind of keeping in touch with. And I think probably the saddest part of the entire experience, if anyone wanted to ask, was that last day when we were all leaving DC and kind of realizing that we're not really going to have an opportunity to see each other. Carol: Yeah, well said George, well said. Mario, you get our last word, but it can't be. Ditto. George: Yeah. Mario: All right. You know what I would have to say is, if I'm speaking to the directors of VR agencies, and especially those that are kind of on the fence of sending staff from their agency to NRLI, What I would definitely say is it's a commitment and it's a long term commitment. And what I mean by that is you can't just send a few once and think that that's enough value added to your agency. You've got to commit over a long time horizon to send staff each year. And you know, Carol, you worked with New Mexico VR through the VRTAC. I'm sure that you've seen our leadership team within New Mexico really grow and develop over the last few years. And that's because the New Mexico VR agency has sent cohorts to the last, I would say at least six, maybe even seven cohorts. And so we've really invested hard in our leadership team in New Mexico. And we're seeing the results of that now. We got out of a cap, we're really making positive progress towards meeting our performance metrics. We have a way better understanding of our data. And now we're really focusing on leadership and culture within our agency. And we're really hoping that going forward, New Mexico VR will be a real place that people want to work at and stay. Carol: Yeah, it really is an investment in your people. I've seen it all over the country and my own, my work with you all, I've seen it, seen the deck chairs move. People have been in interline. They've moved up in their career in New Mexico VR, like I've seen folks in new positions. And it's really been lovely, lovely to see. And I've been appreciative of the management they're investing in VR and we are just so our listeners know why I'm plugging NRLI. It is part of our VRTAC grant and so we do support NRLI. A number of us on the TAC also serve as instructors throughout the various sessions, in addition to there's a faculty for NRLI. So I appreciate you both. I think you did a great job on your paper. If people want to see your paper, they can go to VRTAC.org and go to our top nav NRLI. There's a whole section on NRLI. And you can see the cohort's paper right there. So thank you both. I hope you have a great day. Thanks for joining me. Mario: Thanks, Carol. George: Thank you, Carol. {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

What if better data did not have to mean more paperwork? In this episode of Manager Minute, Sarah Leonard from the South Carolina Commission for the Blind and Pamela Clayton-Johnson from Maryland DORS join Carol Pankow to talk about their National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute research on the RSA-911. Their project takes a hard look at the growing administrative burden of federal reporting and asks a timely question: Are we collecting the right data for the right reasons? Sarah and Pamela discuss their recommendation to remove 71 data elements they believe exceed statutory requirements, while still maintaining accountability and protecting the integrity of VR data. The conversation also explores the importance of involving frontline staff, using data to improve services, and creating space for counselors to spend more time doing what matters most: helping individuals with disabilities achieve meaningful employment. Tune in for a thoughtful, practical, and refreshingly candid conversation about smarter data, stronger services, and leadership that challenges the field to think differently. Listen Here   Full Transcript {Music} Sarah: That's kind of my whole philosophy of who I am as a person. I'm always looking for how we can do things better and questioning, like why we're doing things like, why are we reporting this? Why are we doing that? And so I think that kind of shows up in the paper. Pamela: I think we chose to focus on streamlining the RSA nine over 11 report, because we recognize how much time and energy staff spend on administrative tasks and reporting requirements. Sarah: Were spending all this time to report this data. It must be important. It must be being used somewhere. but, I am not seeing that for some of this. Intro voice: Manager minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Welcome to the Manager Minute. Today, we're joined by Sarah Leonard, planning and reporting director from South Carolina Commission for the Blind, and Pamela Clayton-Johnson, program manager for the Eligibility Unit at Maryland DORS. So how are you doing today, Sarah? Sarah: Good. I'm doing great. How are you? Carol: Awesome. And Pamela, how about you? Pamela: I'm good. Enjoying all this rain that we had within the last week. Carol: Oh, nice. Well, we're in a heat wave. I'm in Minnesota, and, boy, it's been smoking hot. Sarah: It's been hot here. Carol: So Sarah and Pamela recently published a cohort project through the National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute that takes a thoughtful and timely look at the RSA 911. Their paper, Smarter Data, Better Outcomes, explores how reporting requirements have evolved over time, and the growing administrative burden on agencies, and what it would mean to streamline data collection in a way that would better support the core mission of vocational rehabilitation, which is helping individuals achieve employment and strengthening America's workforce. Their work raises important questions for the field about the balance between compliance, data, and outcomes, and offers practical ideas for rethinking how we can approach federal reporting moving forward. So let's dig in. So let's start with each of you. How did you get into vocational rehabilitation and what drew you to this work. And Pamela, I'm going to go to you first. Pamela: Okay. My interest in vocational rehabilitation began in 1999, after one of my close friends sustained a gunshot wound and became a quadriplegic. He was no longer able to do the work he had done before, but he still had a strong desire to work and remain independent. I began to help him research for programs and resources that could support him. And during that process, I discovered the Division of Rehabilitation Services DORS. So that experience changed my life and inspired me to pursue a career helping individuals with disabilities achieve their goal and match their full potential. I later earned my graduate degree in adult Education with a minor in Rehabilitation counseling, which allowed me to combine my passion for education, advocacy and services to others. Carol: That is an amazing story. You are the first person I've heard with like a story like that. And how is your friend doing today? Pamela: He is doing great. He is living independently. He has services in place for him. It's been so many years and he is doing well and he's thriving. So oh. Pamela: Yes. Carol: He's lucky to have a friend like you. I think that's awesome. Pamela: Yes. Carol: Sarah, how about you?How'd you get involved in VR? Sarah: My journey to VR is a recent one. I just started in VR in 2023, and I actually started my career as a public education teacher. And when I was looking to kind of make a career change, I was looking to kind of stay in the public service realm and ended up finding some job openings with the Commission for the blind and kind of my experience as an educator and everything. It just was kind of a natural fit. So I really enjoyed kind of the past three years now, and I'm excited for what's to come. Carol: Very cool. I remember when you first started, I feel like it was longer ago than three years. Time passes really fast. Sarah: It does. Carol: You both participated in NRLI live, and I just want to know a little bit about what that experience was like. And how did it shape your thinking as an emerging leader? And Sarah, I'll ping you first on that. Sarah: NRLI was an amazing experience and I learned so much from the staff from NRLI, but also just from connecting with so many VR professionals across the US. The way it's structured, you meet four times over the course of almost a year. And I think kind of as the year progresses, you are in different places in like kind of what you're doing at work. So when you come together each time as a group, you're kind of experiencing something different and everyone else kind of brings their own experiences and their different kind of situations currently occurring in their agencies to those conversations. So as like an emerging leader. It's just really helped me kind of see the bigger picture of VR on the national scale and how I kind of fit into that on the state level. Carol: Yeah, I love that so much because you see people from start to end because I get to help participate, at least in one of the weeks with doing some of the training, but really seeing how kind of the light bulbs are going on for you guys with that whole bigger national picture. I think that's awesome. Sarah: Yeah. Pamela: Right. Carol: How about you, Pamela? Pamela: Well, participating in the National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute was a very rewarding and eye opening experience for me. It gave me the opportunity to connect with rehabilitation professionals across the country, and who all share the same passion for helping individuals with disabilities succeed. The experience helped shape my thinking as an emerging leader by teaching me the importance of collaboration, advocacy and being servant leadership. I learned that leadership is not just about managing people, it's about listening and supporting others, creating positive change of course, and making sure the voice of the people we serve are heard. The institute also encouraged me to think bigger about the future of vocational rehabilitation and the impact we have in helping individuals achieve independency, employment and a better quality of life. It strengthened my confidence as a leader, and it also reminded me that growth happens when you are willing to learn from others and step outside of your comfort zone, and being a part of the group really helped me step outside my comfort zone. So it was an amazing experience for me. Carol: I love that, and I know they have that coaching component. And so you each get a like a mentor coach that is with you throughout the whole time. And that I just think adds an extra element, like a personal touch for you specifically and all of that. So it really is a great, great program. NRLI is about building leadership capacity and driving change. How did that show up in this project that you chose to take on? And I'll throw that to either of you. Sarah: I mean, that's our whole project. Pamela: right. Sarah: Our whole goal was to kind of advocate for some changes in terms of reporting, specifically the 911. So I think that's kind of my whole philosophy of who I am as a person. I'm always looking for how we can do things better and questioning like why we're doing things like, why are we reporting this? Why are we doing that? And so I think that kind of shows up in the paper. Carol: So what led you guys specifically to go after the RSA 911 for your project? I know you went through some iterations of different topics you were going to pick. Pamela: Yes. I think we chose to focus on streamlining the RSA 911 report because we recognize how much time and energy staff spend on administrative tasks and reporting requirements. Our goal was basically to look at ways to reduce the burden, so vocational rehabilitation staff could spend more time focusing on what truly matters, which is helping individuals with disabilities prepare for, obtain and maintain employment. We wanted to help shift the focus to building America's workforce and improving outcomes for the people we serve. This project taught me that leadership is about identifying the challenges and working together to find solutions, and being willing to advocate for meaningful change that benefit both the staff and consumers. It also showed me the importance, of course, of innovation and thinking about how systems and processes can work more effectively while still meeting federal requirements. So we ponder over a lot of different topics, and this is the one that we end up with. So I'm happy with all that we did with this particular paper and all that I have learned in this process. Carol: So Sarah, you specifically, I know have lived this burden of the RSA 911 every day. How would you describe it to other folks that may not understand? Like, what's the big deal about that? Sarah: I think what people don't realize is how much that report really drives like agency processes, just like day to day. The data that we collect as VR agencies as a part of the intake process, the closure process, all of that that gets reported on the 911. And then for those who aren't kind of in it every day, kind of one of the biggest shocks when they start kind of looking at what is all involved, especially, I think Pamela did this. She went to her person in Maryland who oversees the 911 and asked to see kind of the whole data file that gets submitted up to RSA. And I think that's kind of what puts it into perspective. So for those that haven't seen that, there's a line for every single consumer at your agency who has an open case or was applying for services that quarter or who has closed within the past six quarters. And they stay on that report for those six quarters after they close. And for each of those participants, those individual people, there's a ton of columns of data that gets reported for each of those consumers. And those are the data elements of the 911. And so for those that haven't seen that, I would really encourage them to just ask the person at their agency who is in charge of the 911 just to kind of it puts things in perspective. I think that all of those entries into the case management system, like all of that gets reported out in some sort of fashion on that 911. And so there's stuff that has to go on in the background too. Like our field staff, of course have to collect the data, but most agencies have a whole case management system team who kind of keeps their case management system running. And those data elements all have to be maintained with coding in the back of the system, so that it can get reported out correctly on that report. So there's field staff hours that go into this report. There's technical staff hours that go into this report. And then of course there's data collection that may be involved as well that has to go into the report. So that's a collaboration between technical and people in positions like myself, but then also the field staff to make corrections if those are needed on the 911. So. Carol: And how many data elements are there exactly? Sarah: Over 300. Yeah. Pamela: Yes, it was over 300. And we understand how important that report is for the vocational rehabilitation industry. So we recognize that the counselors and employees spend a large amount of time entering and reviewing data, which can sometimes take away from the direct services to consumers. So we just wanted to explore ways to make the process more efficient. Carol: Well, you guys make the point because you say in your paper the reporting requirements expanded beyond what's required in statute. And so why does that matter to the field right now? Sarah: Well, it's just extra work. Like if we're going to expand the requirements beyond what is like actually legally required, there should be a reason for that. And some of these data elements that are beyond kind of legal requirements, you know, like with the rehab act and everything, some of those data elements, I don't see them being used by RSA. I don't see them being used by Congress in any way. So RSA puts out an annual report to Congress every year, and the amount of data that actually goes into that report is very small, compared to the over 300 data elements that are reported for each consumer at every VR agency in the country. Pamela: And it just increased the workload for staffing agencies. You know, when reporting requirements continue to grow for the counselors and staff, they can spend more time focusing on paperwork instead of the data entry and working directly with the consumers and employees. You know, this can impact, of course, you know, the efficiency, staff morale and overall ability to provide timely services. So it's especially important because the VR agencies, which is us, are focused on helping build America's workforce by supporting individuals with disabilities in reaching their employment goals. So the field wants to make sure that the focus stays on serving people. That's the main goal, creating opportunities and improving employment outcomes, not becoming overwhelmed by administrative tasks, you know? So that was our main focus. Carol: Yeah, I hear that a lot. You know, people are like, I'm just pushing paper now. Pamela: Right? Carol: I'm the data collector. Instead of having time to actually talk to the people. So was that like your biggest realization that all that data wasn't actually going into the reported to Congress? Sarah: That was one of them for me. I think because I just would expect, if we're giving this data out, it would be being used in some sort of way. We're spending all this time to report this data. It must be important. It must be being used somewhere. But I'm not seeing that for some of this. When I kind of came to that realization, I was like, well, then why are we doing all this work? Why are we doing this to ourselves? Yeah, that for me, it was. Pamela: Yeah, we still understand that equity and good data are important, but there also needs to be balanced so agencies can effectively carry out the mission and the best support the people that we serve. So that's our main focus. We want to make sure that we're providing, you know, services to consumers instead of spending a lot of time on paperwork and things that, you know, they're not even looking at or is not meaningful. So it's just like, we're just trying to focus on what matters and balance out the workload. Carol: You did a really thorough job on being super specific on the data elements you recommended that got removed. I mean, it was like, I'm like, holy cow, because it was like you went through the whole entire directory and there were a lot, I don't even know how many, but how did you guys go about doing that to decide the elements that you were recommending to remove? Sarah: We spent a lot of time reading the laws and the regulations. I read the Rehab Act and spent time kind of analyzing that to determine like, what is actually required by the Rehab Act for us to report on. And after doing that review, I came to the conclusion that these 71 data elements that we proposed in our paper. There's no kind of legal requirement for those to be reported in the way that they're currently asking us to report them. Pamela: Right. Sarah: So most of the data elements that we propose to remove are related to service provider type. And the Rehab Act stipulates that only aggregate data on the types of providers and agency uses needs to be reported in some sort of fashion, but it does not stipulate that it needs to be reported on an individual case level for each of the services every quarter, which is what we're essentially doing right now through the 911. Pamela: And Sarah has so much experience because this is what she does every single day. So she was very, very helpful in teaching me about all the different data elements and what is used and things like that. So it was very informative. I had learned so much throughout the process when we were researching this paper and just trying to make sure that we're accurate on what we're reporting. Carol: Yeah, I liked it because I felt like you guys were very thoughtful and you approached this in a really good way and did an extremely thorough job. I would think RSA would be super interested in what you did. Have you spoken to RSA and maybe if you did, like what was that conversation like? You're kind of calling their baby ugly, you know? Pamela: We actually met with them. We met with Michael Quinn and he provided great insight and was very open to hearing our ideas and concerns regarding the RSA 911 report process. One of the biggest things that we learned was the importance of collaboration and having honest conversations about the challenges VR agencies face. It was encouraging also to hear that he believed our paper and research were realistic and thoughtfully developed. He also shared that his team will review our paper and take our recommendations into consideration, which showed us that there's value in bringing forth ideas that could improve processes within the vocational rehabilitation system. For me, it reinforced the idea that meaningful change starts with research, communication, and a willingness to work together to find practical solutions. Of course, that benefits both agencies and the individuals we serve. So meeting with his team was very informative and he was very realistic with the expectations and things like that. It was good. Sarah: We actually met with him twice, so we met with him once while we were kind of developing the paper. And that's what really shaped kind of our approach to writing the paper and research that we did. He told us in a bit of a cryptic way. He told us that we needed to think inside the box first and then think outside of it. So he encouraged us to read the laws, read the regulations. So that's kind of what shaped our method to collecting all of the research and the knowledge that we needed in order to be able to propose these changes. And then just meeting with him and his team kind of after the paper was done, when we went to DC for the final session of NRLI, It was really encouraging because him and his team were really open to the recommendations that we were making. And also, they said it was like getting public comment before the public comment period. So as everyone knows, the RSA 911 is up for renewal and was recently posted for public comment through the OMB. So they, I think, genuinely are looking for feedback on their reports and things like that. And I would really encourage agencies to take advantage of the public comment period on these reports, not just on the 911, but on the RSA 17, the 15, all of those different reports that we have to do, because RSA genuinely, I think, wants our feedback and wants to know the burden that it's putting on agencies and our ideas for streamlining. Carol: So I'm sure you're quoting this paper in the public comment, correct? Pamela: Yes. Sarah: Yes. Carol: Yeah, that's great. Well, you both bring up a really good point about being able to like do the research and speak up because I have heard for years people complaining about the 911, but I have never seen anyone do the job that you two did to dig in deep, do your research, do all the homework, and I'm glad Michael steered you down that path. Like read the rehab act... Pamela: right. Carol: ...look at the things, what's required, and then going back and meticulously, like coming up with 71 data elements. Wasn't 78 or 69. You came up with 71. You go, these are the ones. We don't need them. And I think a lot of times in VR, we kind of complain about things, but we don't always bring it up to the source that could do something about it because they just hear us anecdotally like, oh, you know, it's too much. But what exactly and what exactly could be removed? I think you did the work. People are going to be super happy about this if you get some success with that. Pamela: Yes. Carol: So if your recommendations were implemented. What do you think would be the biggest shift agencies would feel in their day to day operations? Pamela: I believe the biggest shift for VR agencies will feel is having more time and flexibility to focus on serving consumers, instead of spending so much time on administrative tasks and data entry. You know, counselors and staff will likely experience a reduction in paperwork as well and reporting burden, which could improve efficiency, reduce stress and allow more attention to be placed on counseling, job placement, employee engagement, and consumer support. I think agencies will still be able to collect important data and maintain accountability, because that's still important, but the process could become more streamlined and meaningful. The goal is not to remove the reporting, but to make sure the information being collected truly adds value and support that better outcomes. So overall, the biggest change will be shifting more time and energy back to the mission of vocational rehabilitation, which is helping individuals with disabilities prepared for, obtain and maintain meaningful employment while supporting America's workforce. Sarah: I think as well, like we call for removing those 71 data elements, but we also call for RSA to take a genuine look at the number of burden hours through the Paperwork Reduction Act and determine a more accurate estimate of those hours. And then also, we call for them to explore some opportunities to develop some centralized federal databases and data sharing systems, so that information on other WIOA program involvement and things like post-exit wages and credential data, that data could be more easily obtained by agencies. So a lot of agencies right now, they have to kind of manage these individual agreements with these... Carol: Right. Pamela: Right. Sarah: ...different entities to obtain some of this data. And so if we could in some way centralize that, so that whole process is easier. Agencies wouldn't have to kind of independently maintain these agreements with separate Agencies or organizations. Pamela: Right. Carol: Yeah, I thought that was a very interesting point. Thinking about that centralized data collection, I know like DDS, Pamela, you worked in that, you know, Pamela: yes. Carol: There is our centralized system. I used to manage DDS. And so thinking about kind of that nationwide database or whatever that you could possibly have. Now, I suppose people would say it's a little easier said than done, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. Was there any traction? Did you get to talk to Michael about that concept at all? Sarah: We did, and his comments back were kind of similar to what you just said, that it's easier said than done. But, you know, we have things like the Swiss data right now for wages. So I think it could be done. It just wouldn't be, you know, at the snap of your fingers, it would take some time to develop those. Carol: Well, you guys can be part of something like magnificently great. That could happen with your recommendations. I love it. Pamela: Yes. Carol: So stepping back as emerging leaders, what advice would you give others about like balancing compliance, data collection and achieving those real employment outcomes? What advice would you give agencies as they're facing all this? Pamela: I would say that it's important to remember that compliance data collection and employment outcomes all matter, but the mission should always stay centered on the people we serve. Data reporting are important because they help show accountability, measure progress, and tell the story of the work being done. However, we have to be careful that the process does not become overwhelming, that it takes away from direct services and meaningful engagement with consumers. My advice would be to focus on balance, use data as a tool to improve services and outcomes, not just a task to complete. Encourage teamwork, open communication and innovation when looking at processes and systems. It is also important for leaders to listen to frontline staff because they often understand where the biggest challenges exist and most importantly, never lose sight of the ultimate goal, which is helping individuals with disabilities achieve independency, meaningful employment, and success in their lives. Sarah: Pamela, I think you summed that up beautifully. Pamela: Thank you. Sarah: Yeah. I think my biggest advice to agencies is to start looking at your data and looking at your data with your front line workers who are in it every day and doing the job. They deserve to see that data and be involved in conversations surrounding that data. And it's a culture shift to kind of get your agency talking about that data, especially if you've not done it before. Some field staff, I'm sure, have never heard of the RSA 911 before in some agencies. So I think they deserve to be in those conversations and those conversations. I think it equips them to do their jobs more efficiently and effectively. Carol: I think people get so exhausted. I feel like sometimes with the collection of the data and making sure it's accurate, and then you submit it. And then on the other end, I know when we go on and do TA and you ask people about like the data or the observations, this isn't everywhere, but I think sometimes it gets so exhausted by the process, you forget to, on the other end, actually like use it and take a look at what the data is telling you. And I love that you said, you know, to involve your frontline staff because there have been different times we have like, say we look at the data dashboards and we're doing a little training with an agency and we have the field staff in there. They've never seen any of it. They don't know where this goes. They just know they have to do this thing where they're collecting all this stuff and it goes to some mysterious place, but they have no idea what it says. And it really is the story of your agency that does get communicated to Congress. Otherwise, they don't have any way to know about the anecdotal, awesome, wonderful things that are happening and getting people into employment unless you have something you can share. So we don't want to fall down at the very last minute and go, okay, we did all the thing, but we're not letting anybody know internally about what's going on with our data and then making changes as a result of it. You know, when you see different trends or things happening, being able to go in and go like, hey, what's up? You guys and the frontline people are sometimes, well, not sometimes they are the best people to talk to. They see what's happening and it comes out in the data. And everybody's sitting in central office like, mm, what's going on in that region? Go talk to that region and find out what's happening. Pamela: Exactly. The frontline staff, we need them. We need to get feedback from them because they are important in the decision making regarding things that, you know, the input and things like that for the different data elements. And I had a conversation with some of my staff because I work, you know, on the front line, just getting answers regarding, you know, different data entries at the time that they spend gathering information. So it was a lot of information that I learned. And just looking at the RSA 911 for the first time, it was overwhelming because I didn't even know all that information was being collected and used. So it was eye opening for me. Carol: And bless her heart, she does it all day, every day, I know. Are you sure you're happy you left public to do this? Sarah: And I think talking with our field staff about like the 911 data, for instance, like that, like just like NRLI, how we kind of came to this realization of how we fit into this bigger kind of national picture. I think for our staff, having conversations around our data and things like that can help them see that as well. Carol: Yeah. That's cool. So one last thing for you all. What about a little plug for NRLI, is there any like if we have listeners out there going like, what's this thing you all participated in? Do you have any kind of little plug you want to tell them about why they should do that program? Pamela: It was a leadership program, a leadership program where all people from all over the world, different walks in their career path participated. And I learned so much from people networking in itself. We still stay in contact, and their system sometimes may be a little different from how we do our things in Maryland. But just being around those folks that we are passionate about, the vocational rehabilitation process was just amazing and very fulfilling for me, and I think it will be an amazing experience for anyone that wants to be a part of this career path to participate. It was an awesome experience for me. Carol: I love that. Sarah: I really appreciated how, I guess intentional the whole entire experience like is designed like. So I think it's really intentional that it happens over the course of like basically a whole year. And then the different sessions or each week has kind of like a different almost like theme, I guess, or concept that you're learning that week. And then by the time you get to the final session in DC, it's kind of the culmination of everything that you've learned. But since time has passed and it's not just kind of like a one and  done thing, you have also kind of matured in your career. At least that's kind of how I felt as I went through it. I also started supervising two new people during that time period. So it was all very relevant and very, I guess, eye opening. But then also there's something I think, really important about it being a leadership program that's also in the lens of VR, right? Like there's tons of leadership programs out there, but they're not kind of tailored towards being a leader in VR. And so I think that's what makes NRLI so unique and different. Pamela: Most definitely. Carol: Yeah, I've seen over time, you know, those cohorts, you make those networks of friends, you guys have, you know, chat groups and all different things and getting together when you're at a conference or, you know, just people to call on and get ideas. If you run into trouble at your agency. You're like, oh, I'm gonna pick up the phone, I'm calling Pamela now, or I'm calling Sarah because they might have a different perspective on that. And I just love that transplanting of ideas across the country. There's such great benefit in that. I'm so glad you guys had a great experience. Pamela: I did, it was amazing. Carol: Thank you both today for this conversation. I'm expecting great things from your paper. I'm really hoping that it is the start of some cool changes. And thank you for joining me. Appreciate you both. Sarah: Thank you. Pamela: Thank you so much. {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

What if VR looked beyond traditional employment pathways? In this episode of Manager Minute, Carol Pankow sits down with Kristy Schenderlein, Vice President of Operations at the Blind Institute of Technology (BIT), to discuss how an RSA Disability Innovation Fund (DIF) demonstration grant is redefining career opportunities for people with disabilities. Learn how BIT combines accessible technical training, industry-recognized certifications, registered apprenticeships, and employer partnerships to prepare participants for careers in Salesforce, digital accessibility, AI, and project management. With participants earning family-sustaining wages and advancing into six-figure careers, this conversation challenges VR professionals to think differently about workforce development and the future of competitive integrated employment. Listen Here   Full Transcript: {Music} Kristy: Organizations are unfortunately trying to fit our community into a little box. What they think we can do, not what we know that we're capable of. You guys are really forging ahead with something that's never been done before. And so how do we get the VR groups, the VR counselors and teams to break out of what their traditional mold has been? Our participants earn an average of 75,000, and within three years of employment, the majority have been promoted and are making over six figures. Intro voice: Manager minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today is Kristy Schenderlein, VP of operations at the Blind Institute of Technology. So Kristy, how are things going for you? Kristy: Very good. Ready for summer to start. Carol: Yes. It's starting here in a big way, let me tell you. We've got heat wave going on in Minnesota. So today we're going to talk about a Disability Innovation Fund project focused on expanding access to careers and technology for individuals with disabilities. And this is a space getting a lot of attention right now. But what does it actually look like to build something that works in practice? So let's dig in. So Kristy, let's start with your journey. How did you get connected to this work and to BIT? Kristy: Yeah, absolutely. So I myself am a member of the Blind and visually impaired community. I have Stargardt's disease, which is a juvenile form of macular degeneration. So I navigated through the education space as a visually impaired student, got my degree from University of Wyoming and Communications a long time ago. We don't want to talk about how long ago that was, but then I moved into a career as a litigation paralegal for about 15 years. And my husband and I opened our own hardware store, where, in addition to being a small business owner and doing whatever was needed of me that day, I also oversaw all of the operations there as well. And when we closed our store, I kind of was at a crossroads. I wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to do, except for the fact that I really wanted to look into the potential of working with employment in my community. Through my years, I had met with apprehension. Can I do the job? Shock? You know, some people would see, you know, especially when we were at the hardware store and I began using a cane in the middle of us owning the store. So, you know, people would walk in and I'd be standing there with my cane. And if I asked them, you know what I can help them with? Or if they'd see me, you know, talking to employees found out I was one of the owners. You know, I was just met with disbelief that I could actually be doing this job. You know, sometimes it was just blatant. No, you can't met with a I don't see how this can be done. So I'm not going to open my mind to even consider this. So I know that navigating those waters of employment for not only people within the blind and visually impaired community, but pan disability community as well, is difficult. And I know that it is not the lack of ability, it's the lack of opportunity. And so what could I do to help my community? And an acquaintance introduced me to Mike Hess, our executive director. Mike and I met. He told me about BIT, BIT's mission, his vision, and I jumped on board seven years ago. When I jumped on the ride, there was five of us, now there's almost over 50 of us, the majority of which identify with some form of disability, including in leadership. So we're really proud of that. It's been a wild ride for sure. Carol: I think it's really cool. I was looking a lot. I was looking you up. Of course, you know, I got to check out your story on LinkedIn and all the things as well. And then just perusing the BIT website and such. And I just think you have a really amazing cast of folks that are working there. Kristy: We do. Carol: And I really like what you're doing. Kristy: Thank you. Carol: And I could not believe, actually, since I found out about you, I had contacted like my folks back at State services for the Blind in Minnesota. I'm like, do you guys know about them? Like, because I sure didn't know about you when I was there. And I just think getting the word out more is super important. So I know you and I had spoken earlier and we were talking about your DEF grant application and that you guys actually had a model that you had built. And so you were basing this application on that. Can you talk a little bit about the different process and what problem you were trying to solve with your application for the project? Kristy: Yeah, absolutely. We know the numbers and how ugly they are that, you know, 70% of people with disabilities are either un or underemployed for the BVI community. It's even higher. It's at 80. I think those numbers have changed a little bit, but unfortunately that needle hasn't moved much in years. There's a lot of organizations out there that are saying that they're focusing on employment. But unfortunately, I mean, the numbers don't lie. You know, we're still where we're at. And what we found is no one is focusing on workforce development for higher level professional careers. And no one's really focusing, again on the professional or corporate America. Organizations are unfortunately, trying to fit our community into a little box, what they think we can do, not what we know that we're capable of. And so we really, truly believe that the answer to this, and I'm going to call it, you know, an epidemic, if you will, the unemployment of people with disabilities really has to do with workforce development and making sure that those people who, again, have the ability to do the job also have the opportunity. So we actually began offering Salesforce administration courses, gosh, back o late 2000 teens, we successfully put through eight blind or visually impaired professionals through a Salesforce Administration Certification prep course, and we choose Salesforce specifically because of the accessibility of their platform. And not that it is a B2C accessibility, but it's a B2B. So people within my community and those of us in the Blind and visually impaired community who are the hardest to serve because of the fact that we have to use assistive technology in order to do our jobs. It's allowing that community to get these certifications, get good, long lasting, sustainable careers. You know that they can actually be, you know, climbing up that corporate ladder, not being stuck down at the bottom. So we began our courses in 2020. We actually became the only training provider approved by Salesforce for people with disabilities globally. And that really came about because of our focus on two things. Number one, our courses being virtual, we are meeting. This was even before the pandemic, even before, you know, virtual courses were the thing. We were doing it virtually. We were meeting our community where they were at. We were also focused on employment. Our end goal at BIT is always employment. That's always where we keep our eye on employment. So, you know, we'd already started these courses. We began a Salesforce system integration service within BIT. We also began an accessibility consulting service and began using our students as at that time, interns, we met up with an intermediary, an apprenticeship intermediary called Safal Partners, who looked at our program and said, gosh, you guys already have an apprenticeship program. Kristy: What would be considered a wrap or a registered apprenticeship program through the Department of Labor? So they helped us get registered with the Department of Labor, and we became and still are the only organization, the only registered apprenticeships to include the Pan disability community to include the BVI community. And we're proud of that. And we're also saddened by that because we are the only ones that are doing it this way. The problem was we were only able to do it more of in a project based format, you know? So whenever we had projects, the apprentices worked well. Our apprenticeship program is a competency based program. There have been which now have been lifted, but requirements of 2000 hours really difficult to get those 2000 hours in a reasonable amount of time when it's just ebbs and flows of projects. So we really need to find a way to move into a more structured apprenticeship program. We added a, you know, the digital accessibility space a couple of years after we did the Salesforce admin apprenticeship and fortunately found the DIF grant to help us expand on what we already had running. Carol: So what did this when you get the DIF grant, what it allow you to do differently, moving from that more kind of pilot project kind of format into this structured model? Kristy: Mhm. Well, it allowed us to do essentially that. Number one is add structure. So as I mentioned, for our apprenticeship program, first we were able to add an apprenticeship program manager, which is huge for somebody to actually be able to focus all of their time on overseeing the program. We were able to move it into a more structured program. So we're not only looking now at project based. Our apprentices, you know, are working on regular schedules. Most are completing their apprenticeships between 1 and 2 years. They're able to not only work on those projects and gain competencies through projects, but also work on hypothetical situations we created for those competencies they need to accomplish without the projects we're working on professional development. So it was able to really add, again that structure to make it just a more robust program. In addition to that, we were able to expand on the academy courses that we were able to offer. So what we're learning with the Salesforce ecosystem is essentially the sweet spot is five certifications. It's not enough just to have that foundational cert. So with the DIF grant, we were able to say, okay, we want to get our team to that five certs. Any student that goes through our course, they have the option of getting to those five certifications. You earn two. Just in our foundational course alone. And then we added three higher level courses. In addition to that, we're also able to add a third track. So we have our Salesforce Administration track. We have our digital accessibility track, and now we're going to be able to add an Agile Scrum Master certification or project management track. So it pairs really nicely with the other two tracks in that, you know, all of these projects, they need scrum masters or project managers to run these projects. So now we're able to kind of create that full loop where we're able to have our admins working on their projects. Same with digital accessibility. And then we're able to add, again, these scrum masters and project managers to work on those same projects to build up and gain their experience. So able to expand the Academy. We were also able to add an academy director and an administrative assistant, you know. So again, providing more structure and guidance there. And then additionally, one of the things that we focused on, one of our goals with the grant was to be placed on 30 state eligible training provider lists. And what this allows us to do is really get a lot of that exposure that you were talking about before. Any person who wanted to participate in the program can go to these ETPLs, is what they're called. See if we're on in their state, get the information. You know, if they are workforce boards, VR counselors. Again, just the average Joe that wants to look into some opportunities for training also gives employers the opportunities to come in and see what we're doing, learn about us, you know, get that more exposure. And I think actually now we're on 35 ETPLs. Again, our friends at Safal Partners helped us within the first year achieve that KPI for our DIF grant. Carol: That is amazing. That is really great. I was gonna ask how many you were on and 35 sounds... Kristy: Mhm. And growing and growing. You know, we're we're we're not stopping. Right. We want to be on all of them. Carol: I'm like, you're going to conquer the world. So walk us  through how it works today. You know, you're talking about the academy. You've got the certification, the apprenticeships, kind of how does the whole flow? Somebody comes in, they're like, I want to do the thing. What happens? Kristy: Absolutely. We have a couple of different options to start. So what we decided to do was add two self-guided courses for our two current tracks, Digital Accessibility and Salesforce Admin. So they're intro courses, they're self-guided. And essentially it's just that giving you an introduction to what Salesforce is. A lot of people have no idea what Salesforce is, even though they're one of the largest tech companies in the world. They're in every industry, all the different fields, you know, they're this humongous organization, but a lot of people just don't know what it is. So it gives people the opportunity to get in there, see what Salesforce is. Is this an interest to me? Same with digital accessibility also gives them an understanding of if you're using assistive technology, what is your level of proficiency need to be? Can you be a beginner? And I'll tell you right now, the answer is no. You can't be a beginner if you're using. You know what? I use a screen reader. You know, you have to be a little more proficient than that. So you get through those courses and you decide, yeah, I really liked this. I completed the course. You sit for a technical assessment, you have to do a hands on assessment and then a technical interview. Kristy: And the reasoning for that is to really, number one, ensure that that person who is taking the course is committed, understands the content was doing it themselves, you know, making sure nobody was, you know, helping them out before they can move into the instructor led courses. So once they pass that you can move into the instructor led either, again, digital accessibility or Salesforce, when we add our agile scrum probably won't have an intro to start, but that'll be getting added the later part of this year. And that'll again be instructor led courses, but pretty much the same format. So once you get into the instructor led courses, digital accessibility I believe is 14 weeks. I think admin is now 17 weeks. Again, with admin, you earn two certifications, multiple hours a week in class and then also in lab. In addition to that, there is a lot of homework. There's a lot of work outside these courses. I never sugarcoat these courses. They are not easy. We're talking high level tech careers. So these are high level courses. There's a lot of work, there's a lot of commitment, but there's a lot of support. All of our classes are taught by a person with a disability. Our TAs are people with disabilities. We have focus on those people that need to use screen readers. You know, we have screen reader instructors. So we're really, you know, meeting every person with a disability, regardless of what that is, understanding what accommodations they may need, working with them on that so that they can feel comfortable and actually concentrate on the content and the subject matter and not, am I going to be able to do this course or not? So they get through the instructor led courses leads to sitting for the certification exams. And, and I want to point out to all of the courses that we offer in our academy all lead to industry recognized certifications. These aren't certifications. We make up and say, well, we'll see if it works for you. These are the same certifications that anyone would be sitting for if they were taking any of these Salesforce courses or the digital accessibility, the Agile Scrum Master, you're going to be sitting for the actual Scrum Master certification. So they sit for the exams, you know, hopefully pass it. We've got really good certification pass rates, so hopefully they'll pass it again. They're difficult, they're not easy, but we provide you with what you need in the courses to pass those certs. Carol: What does your pass rate look like. Kristy: So oh boy you just threw that threw that at me. What's the data I believe I think it varies based on the course. But for example, I know our past cohort for digital accessibility, ten out of 12 have sat for the course. And I think all of them have passed. So 100% there. I think most of our cert rates run as a collective whole, 75 to 95%. Carol: Okay. Kristy: Yeah, really good cert rates. And again, it's really because of the fact that these are intense courses, but we work with you. Carol: When you're wrapping service around all these people. Kristy: Exactly. Carol: Talk about the technical kind of support that the students can get. Kristy: You're exactly right. Yeah. You know, and again, a lot of group sessions, you have a lot of support. Carol: Yeah. Kristy: So yeah. So once you get past those certifications, you then become eligible to interview for an apprenticeship. Not everyone qualifies for an apprenticeship. It really depends how well you do in the class. You know, obviously you need to have your certification to get into their apprenticeship. So if you don't get your cert, there's an issue. What was your professionalism like? You know, our instructors provide our apprenticeship manager with notes and sometimes it's, hey, they just need a little more professional development. They need a little work on this. They need to work on that, which is stuff we can provide. One of the things that came with the different is we added in a professional employment coach. So she works with people, you know, maybe you have ADHD and you're looking for tools to help you get organized and to stay focused. And so we bring her in and have sessions together. Sometimes just professional development. There's a lot of people in our community that need a little bit of that. Unfortunately for some of us, when we get on these Zoom calls, we can't see the social cues. We can't tell if somebody is, you know, getting ready to speak or wrapping up what they're speaking, you know, so how do you handle all that? So we do all of that, you know, we provide all of that. But once the instructors say, yep, I think that they should interview for an apprenticeship program, they have to go through an interview with our apprenticeship program manager and another member of BIT. And then if we have openings, which we do, and we will continue to have them through the different, then they become a part of our apprenticeship. And again, those are all apprenticeships or they're competency based used to be 2000 hours. The Department of Labor has lifted that restriction. But we still feel that that 2000 hours is a good number for our participants to really get a good, strong understanding of what they will be doing in this role in mastering these competencies, Professional development. It gives you that 1 to 2 years experience that, you know, whenever you're looking for an entry level job, what do you see? You need 1 to 2 years' experience. Well, how do you get that if you're entry level? And so we're providing that opportunity to do so. Our apprenticeship program has additional trainings that are offered. You're working right alongside with our sales force professionals, our accessibility professionals who all have experience in the field. And again, I will point out to these are teams that are all disabilities working together. So completely deaf admins working with completely blind admins, just killing it, doing an excellent job. So really a lot of exposure in that apprenticeship program. One of the things the DIF grant also allowed us to do is incorporate employer partners. So if you have an apprenticeship with an employer partner still meeting with our apprenticeship program manager. You're still getting all of the support from BIT we're meeting with the project leads at those employers to make sure that we're supporting them in anything they need. So really, like I said, a well-rounded program. Once you complete those competencies, we do self-evaluations. I mean, we're, you know, where you stand in our apprenticeship and what you need to work on. And, you know, we're selling, obviously, the further you get into the apprenticeship program, the more projects you're handed, the more responsibility. So really just gaining your confidence in the field, and then you're ready to go into the world and work in an organization or a corporation out there. Carol: Are you seeing any impact with AI? You know, people talk about AI usage now, and, you know, the increase of that and how it's changing the landscape of corporate America. Are you seeing any impact from that? Kristy: So you've heard of that little thing called AI? Carol: Yeah. Kristy: The answer is an overwhelming yes. So one of the things that we've done in our courses is try to, we try to make them future proof. You know, we don't want to send our students or our apprentices out into the world behind the eight ball, you know, oh gosh, this is a saturated market. I don't have any of the skills. So one of those higher level Salesforce certifications I told you about is agent for specialist, which is Salesforce AI. And Salesforce has gone all in on agent force and their AI. So our apprentices have the opportunity to become certified in agent force. And then, you know, different projects we're working on. We're now talking to a lot of clients that are looking into how can I incorporate AI into my Salesforce environment? So, you know, giving them people then that opportunity to get those skills so that they can make an immediate impact. Additionally, in the Scrum Master or the project management track scrum Master has just added the AI Scrum Master certification course. So we will be actually including that in our course. So again, you'll come out of that track with if you're looking at Scrum Master, you're looking at two shirts, one of which is AI. We're also adding a higher level AI course, that's AI governance. Most of these companies are looking at this going, okay, we have AI, but when should we be using it? How should we be using it? What is ethical? What is not? What is going overboard with AI, you know? So we're actually going to provide a course. So again, our participants can come out able to make immediate impact on organizations. And the way to do that right now is AI. So we absolutely are incorporating AI. People with disabilities to, you know, again, we say at BIT Technology is the greatest equalizer. It truly is. And people with disabilities are actually leading the charge in AI. In fact, that agent for specialist course I mentioned, out of all of the workforce development orgs within Salesforce, we were the first one to offer that course. So disability community leading the way in AI. So it's exciting. Carol: I love it. Well, you're ahead of the curve, which is super good. And people come in with that. They'll definitely. I mean, you're creating a good niche there with your apprentices being able to do that. Kristy: That's our goal. Carol: That's awesome. So what are you seeing as a career pathways like what's proving to be the most impactful right now? Kristy: So you know, again, Salesforce is just huge. So of course that is, you know, continuing on and that is definitely making a big impact. Digital accessibility is a very hot topic right now. Gosh, a couple years ago, I can't remember what year it was actually implemented. But the Department of Justice has now mandated that title two of the Americans with Disabilities Act incorporate digital accessibility. And they actually laid out deadlines. They just pushed the first deadline. It was supposed to be April of 2026, that all municipalities with over 50,000 individuals had to be digitally accessible. Everything within your state needs to be accessible for people within our community to access. 2027 was supposed to be for those municipalities, less than 50,000. I imagine that'll get pushed back as well. But the bottom line is if your organization, your front facing organization is not accessible, you're going to encounter some issues. And so all of a sudden then all of these corporations and organizations and government and they're going, okay, what is this? What is digital accessibility and how do we get there? So we're really starting to see a lot of impact, a lot of clients coming to us asking, okay, what is digital accessibility? How can you help me? One of the members of Office of Accessibility for Salesforce is actually said that there's two experts in Salesforce accessibility, and one is Salesforce and one is bit. We work very closely with them on accessibility and their accessibility. I think really that impact digital accessibility. We're going to see it more and more and more. Unfortunately, a lot of lawsuits are being filed. And when I say unfortunately, it's that's what's being the precursor for companies to become digitally accessible. You know, I wish they would just because it's better for everyone. An accessible product is just a better product. It's more well thought out, it's more intentional. It's just better presented. I wish that it wasn't that they're being forced to because of litigation. I wish that it was just because that is again, the right thing to do. Plus, this disability community is large across the world. I think it's 1 in 5 now, and more and more people are aging. More and more people are being diagnosed with disabilities. Where before in tech, people were just considered eccentric. When I think a lot of them were actually, you know, on the autism spectrum or neurodiverse, so that, you know, a lot of invisible disabilities, mental health disabilities are now become not so taboo to hide and to talk about. So it's something that, you know, the world's just going to see more and more of, and the demand for making things more accessible to reach your customers, to reach that community is going to become more and more. So I really think that digital accessibility track is getting a lot of focus. Carol: That is very cool. I know employer engagement also is a big piece of all this, and how are you partnering with companies and what are they seeing as value from what you offer? Kristy: So apprenticeships is huge right now. Apprenticeships really provide employers the opportunity to get kind of a jump on the talent pipeline, both this current administration and the former administration, very pro apprenticeship. You know, they have apprenticeship mandates out. I believe it's a million apprentices is what they want to attain. And then there's proven statistics. I'll give you some data here, Carol, for companies that have an apprenticeship program, typically for every dollar that's invested in that apprentice, the company is seeing an ROI of $1.44. So immediately getting impact with having an apprentice, 94% of the apprentices stay where they're at when they become an apprentice within a company. So turnover is really expensive for companies, incredibly expensive. And so not only if you have an apprenticeship, you're looking at a 94% retention rate. But then to add to that, the people with disabilities community, our turnover rate is incredibly low because it has been difficult to find employment. If the person with a disability finds a place where they can be successful and thrive, they're not going anywhere. So you kind of get a double whammy on that. Apprentices typically come out earning 84,000 a year, and they're saying 49% of HR managers are saying that skill based is really kind of the new and compelling look at talent management. One of the things that, again, as I mentioned before, the DIF grant allowed us to do is start reaching out to employer partners, having them bring on apprenticeships, not necessarily being trained within BIT, but actually going into their organizations, working with their Salesforce teams, working with their digital accessibility teams and again, creating this talent pipeline I mentioned earlier, it's not the lack of ability, it's the lack of opportunity. Again, these apprenticeship programs are really providing people within our community the opportunity to go in there and prove themselves, to show these companies. You know, unfortunately for the people with disabilities community, that really is we call it that legal, nebulous bell that we have to ring is the reasonable accommodations. Most people don't understand them. If you get an apprenticeship in there, you're working alongside that apprentice to really determine, okay, how is this person going to be most successful and really getting over that fear of what the reasonable accommodation is. So our impact with employers has been fabulous. It's been phenomenal. A lot of interest, again, in bringing on these apprentices to work on their teams, give them again that opportunity to kind of dip their toe into that pool. I want to mention, too, that we really believe that the disabilities community is the greatest untapped talent in the planet. You have this whole group of resources that are so talented and nobody's touching and working with organizations like BIT. Working with these apprentices really gives you that opportunity to dip into that talent and have this just amazing pipeline, amazing resources to work with instead of going the typical talent route. And we have a tech talent shortage, we really do. So, you know, working with, again, like an apprenticeship program, working with our team really gives people the opportunity to get that jump on that talent. Carol: Well, and they get to work in that company. You know, you're in that company and the company culture. You're all part of it you've done these 2000 hours. You know, you've been there a year or more. Kristy: Exactly. Carol: And so they really get a good flavor of what you bring to the table. It's such a great way. I mean, you see that more and more kids are starting to realize like maybe the four year degree route isn't the way. Kristy: Mhm. Carol: We need to look at these other options for getting into employment and getting in more quickly, because everybody learns differently, and these jobs, I mean, when you're talking, people are coming on average $84,000. This is no joke. Kristy: No it's not. Again, it's a good way to get into, again, your feel to get your foot in the door. Give those companies the opportunity to really get that new and emerging talent, but not expecting them to just hop right in the job because, he said, we all learn differently. There's a lot of nuances to learn about different companies. You know, you're an admin at one company and you go to another. And again, you know, you've got that hill to climb of, you know, what are the nuances of that particular company. But here you built your own army, if you will. You built your own pool. Carol: Yeah. Kristy: One of our apprentices actually in a webinar we did recently, she had said, you know, one of the benefits to employers is you essentially get to mold these apprentices into what type of employees that you're looking for. And it's true, you're almost taking a blank slate and working with it for two years and building your team the way you want. And then like you said, you know, you're done with that 2000 hours. Why would you go anywhere else? You've already invested this time. Again, we've given you the statistics on the ROI in that dollar investment. You're already earning money off the apprentices, so why wouldn't you stick with them? Carol: 100%. Now, I know you had some success with the workforce boards and a few blind service agencies, but you've had less traction with VR. What's been the challenge there and what do you want, like the VR agencies to understand? Because I know we sure miss the whole boat and didn't even realize a thing about BIT and I've been telling everybody ever since I talked to you first, like, hey, you need to go look at this website and you need to talk to these people because I've just been like, wow, why is VR missing the boat on that? Kristy: Well, I think you're kind of hitting the nail on the head there, Carol, in that we are not your normal traditional organization out there. We know we are actually the only organization doing what we're doing. And we know that because not only have we looked, but Salesforce has looked. Our other partner, Ronstadt, has looked, you know, they've looked around for other organizations like us doing what we're doing, the manner in which we're doing it, and there aren't any out there. So I've been thinking about this since you and I spoke last time about, you know, really what is our problem with VR? What is the issue? And I really think it comes down to that fact that we are breaking the mold. Our friends at Safal Partner, you know, talk with us all the time about you guys are really forging ahead with something that's never been done before. And so how do we get the VR groups, the VR counselors and teams to break out of what their traditional mold has been and kind of think out of the box and look at our organization go, oh, wait, because unfortunately, the traditional is not working. I mean, the numbers say it, you know, those numbers haven't moved. And I think the VR counselors, they have to do certain things certain ways. And they have reports that they have to do and they need to meet different criteria. And, you know, our programs aren't short. You know, it's not like somebody can get in and out in a month and then they're employed. You know, we're really investing the time in training people to really be productive employees in a completely different way than ever been done before. So I think if we can get the VR groups to open up their minds to a different way of doing things and to recognize the fact that these traditional ways we've been doing things just really aren't moving the needle. And I think a lot of the, you know, VR counselors, again, they're they have cases they have to close, they have rates that they have to hit. They again, they have all this documentation they have to do. And so I think a lot of times they try to put a square peg in a round hole, and it just doesn't work for people with disabilities community. You have to understand where they're at, you know, Social Security disability, a lot of people are on it. It is not easy to get on. Our goal is to get everyone off of it, not to provide them with a supplement to their SSDI. We want everyone to become tax producers, not tax consumers. So when you get people who are capable, who are software engineers, who have these, you know, the great focuses on tech, this critical thinking mindset that can do so much more than just getting a job. Being able to think outside the box, look at other opportunities that might be out there and go for it. You know, we've been successful, we're showing that this is the way you do this with this group. So that's really the only answer I can come up with, Carol, is why we're not making more traction is just that traditional mindset of this is how we do things. And unfortunately, that traditional mindset is just not helping our community well. Carol: And hopefully we're able to get the word out now through the podcast and advertising that because it is like a no brainer to me. I mean, you're looking at your wants to get people into quality employment outcomes. And I used to always be about like family sustaining wages. And so you're talking about this investment and the people, even though it takes a longer amount of time. But if you've got folks coming out, you know, you've got a big track record, you've worked 2000 hours, you've done this apprenticeship, you've done all this coursework ahead. You have these certifications. You now are geared up for really good employment and long term employment. We're not talking, you know, you're in and out of the fast food place. You want to stay here. You're now engrained in a company. Like what a way to set folks up for success and not needing to come back to you, or to Social Security or any of those other supports. You've really got people launched in such a great way. Kristy: Right? And on that note, so our participants earn an average of, I think, 75,000. And within three years of employment, the majority have been promoted and are making over six figures. So as you said, their family sustaining wages with opportunities of growth. And that's really what our community needs in opportunities, is that the community does not want to be on Social Security disability. They don't they want to be able to put food on their table. You know, with employment comes a lot of dignity. It comes a lot of feeling of worth and being a productive member of society. The community wants that and they know they can do that. We're just lacking the opportunity. Again, lacking that open mindset. I know there's a lot of VR counselors that say, hey, I'm going to put you through college and I'm going to get you this bachelor's degree. And our unemployment rate is still the same, right? We need more than that. You know, you need more of an investment, not just the traditional. I am old enough to remember the days that my parents just said, oh, just get a degree, right. Doesn't matter what it's in. Just go get a degree, you'll get a job. That's not today. You know, today's the day of specialization. As we talked earlier, today is the day of certifications. You know, people want certs. They want experience. They want skills, they want proof. And they're looking at effective employees to, you know, how effective are you an employee? Are you going to be great? You've got this bachelor's degree, but can you be effective in this role? Hiring managers say they can train for those hard skills. You know, they can train somebody to, you know, code in a certain Manner or become an HR professional. You can train a lot of that, but you can't train the effectiveness. You can't train the critical thinking as much as you can when you're in the role. Our program helps to do that though. You know, it really helps people to develop those skills, to become those critical thinkers, those problem solvers that these hiring managers are looking for. Carol: It really is the full package. What you offer. I just I'm still stunned thinking about like that. We've all missed the boat for 20 years or plus you've been around. So it's not too late though for people to get on board. So looking ahead, what does success look like for your project and what should other people be paying attention to? Kristy: Mhm. Of course, the whole goal for this project is competitive integrated employment. And of course, again, that goes right along with our mission from the very beginning. It's employment. You know, that CIE number is again that family sustaining wages that you can have good strong careers in. So when we're looking at our future, the grant has provided us the opportunity to really build our programs again, provide a lot more structure. So of course, sustainability. Our goal is really to grow our own sales force system integration services, our own digital accessibility services. So that number one, we can be a huge employer of people with disabilities and really build these big sales force teams. The other thing is really finding the employers who are interested in investing in this community. You know, who again, are thinking outside that box of, you know what? I have a talent shortage and I need to find a pool that is really going to benefit my company, provide an ROI, you know, be here. So I'm not hiring somebody every six months. So really, again, you know, getting the word out, we want people, of course, to know about our program to look at our program. You know, we're focused on tech. Tech is not the only industry that could benefit with this type of program, not in any way, shape or form. So we really like people to look at our program and say, okay, you know, our focus is X, you know, maybe it's marketing, maybe it's finance, accounting, whatever it is. And really look at our program and say, I think this is the model that we need to follow. You know, it is a very collaborative organization. We are not going to get where we need to be in silos. We need the whole village to work together to provide these opportunities. Again, really trying to show that we really feel this is the path forward for many careers, for many high producing, effective, high compensation careers. We'd really like people to, again, look at our program, look what we're doing in the different, obviously different is a demonstrative grants. That's the whole thing we're doing here is demonstrating that we really feel that our model is the way to go. Really take a look at apprenticeships and apprenticeships for people with disabilities. I really feel apprenticeship just are tailor made to people with disabilities for them to really, again, get really comfortable to build their skills and show that, yeah, I've got the ability. Just give me that opportunity. I've got the ability. Carol: I can totally see why RSA selected you as a grant. Kristy: Oh thank you. We're pretty passionate here at BIT. Carol: You are and it's amazing. So folks wanted more information about BIT, what's the best way to find you or contact? Kristy: Absolutely. So of course the best way is our website. It's just easy. BlindInstituteOftechnology.org. You can also get it by blindIT.org. You'll find all the information there. Otherwise you know, reaching out. If you are interested in our Academy, [email protected], we have [email protected] or [email protected]. Any of those, if you can't remember any of them and you can only remember, oh, she said [email protected], but I'm really not in sales still go to that email address. We're looking at over 50 of us. Our internal team, you know, is about 25 to 30. We're very tight knit, so it's going to get to us. So any of those email addresses work and you can find them all on our website. So again, BlindInstituteOfTechnology.org or BlindIT.org will get you there as well. Carol: So no wrong door in. Kristy: Nope, nope. We will get you to where you need to be. Just let us know what you're looking for, what you're interested in, and we will find the person for you. Carol: Well, that is awesome and I know I am going to sing your praises going forward. Like continue to like tell people about what is happening there. It's pretty amazing. I really appreciate your time. I wish you much success. Thanks for joining me. Kristy: Thank you so much, Carol. I appreciate the opportunity. {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

This episode features a conversation with Dacia VanAlstine, Project Director of the Evolve Employment Model demonstration project at Minnesota Blind. What began as a brainstorming conversation at a national conference evolved into an innovative Disability Innovation Fund (DIF) project focused on improving employment outcomes, retention, and participant engagement for individuals who are blind, low vision, or facing employment barriers. Dacia shares how the Evolve Employment Model is challenging traditional approaches to vocational rehabilitation through progressive employment strategies, benefits planning, workplace exposure opportunities, and faster, more responsive service delivery designed to keep participants connected and moving forward. The episode also explores the realities of building new models in real time — recognizing staff strengths, embracing flexibility, fostering collaboration, and "building the ship while sailing it." A thoughtful conversation on leadership, creativity, workforce development, and the future of vocational rehabilitation. Listen Here Full Transcript: {Music} Dacia: When we did our brainstorming, we looked at where could we improve and not just improve the customer experience, but the way that the staff do their work. Carol: How has your experience been working with your RSA project officer, and what's that partnership look like? Dacia: Cassandra is amazing. Doctor Deandra too. They are an amazing team. They are very real, which I so appreciate and so responsive and just, they answer the dumbest questions that I have and don't make me feel dumb. So I love it. Intro voice: Manager minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today is Dacia VanAlstine, project director for the Evolve Employment Model demonstration at Minnesota Blind. And today we're going to dive into innovation, leadership and what it really looks like to take an idea and bring it to life in VR. And I have to say, this one is a little special for me. I had the good fortune to work with Dacia during my time at State Services for the Blind. And one thing that always stood out as her ability to take a concept, sometimes just an idea and turn it into something real, something actionable, and something that makes a difference. So, Dacia, how are things going? Dacia: Thank you for that, Carol. Things are going well. We're moving right along with this project. We are making some great strides, so it is fun to be here today. Carol: Excellent. So before we jump into the project itself, I'd like to start with your story. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about your background and how you found your way into vocational rehabilitation? Dacia: I think like a lot of people, I just kind of fell into it. I started when I was younger working in group homes, and that moved into becoming a program coordinator for group homes, which then moved into the day programming side of things at a, DT&H, which then turned into working with their supported employment license and then finding employers and jobs for people that were actually connected to the VR programs. So then I became interested in VR and started working for State Services for the Blind back in 2008 as a Vocational Rehab Technician. And then with my background, ended up getting some ARRA funding and I moved into employment services and have been working with the Dual Customers ever since. Carol: Wow. I did not know you kind of followed my same path because I did the whole group home work too, and DT&H and the whole shebang. That's pretty cool, I love it. So I know this project did not appear out of nowhere. It really grew organically. Can you talk a little bit about how the idea for Evolve Employment first came about and how it took shape? Dacia: It's kind of funny. A few of us had gone to CSAVR in the spring of 2024, and they had announced the DIF grants that they were going to be doing. It was Natasha Jerde, who's our executive director, and then Jon Benson, our deputy director, myself. We had our quality assurance person, Ashlyn Cahill there, and our fiscal person, Gabby Garcia. And then we had a counselor, Jason Dornbush, and we were all sitting in the back row. And it started with one little, hey, what if we applied for this? What could we do? There's so many different things we could do. And it turned into this whole thing and it just exploded from there. I don't even remember the session that was going on at the time, because we were in the back just brainstorming. It turned into this huge idea spark, and one person fed off the other person and then it just blew into this thing. Carol: I love when that happens. That is super fun. Now, the speaker up front was probably annoyed with you all, but I love when that, you know, you get that idea. In fact, you know, Jeff and I, back in the day, we were at a CSAVR conference and he's like going out trying to do a little interviews with somebody. After that session, I'm like, what are you doing? I'm going to do a podcast. This was way back in the day and I'm like, what's a podcast? And look at now the whole world is podcasting, but it cracked me up. I mean, we started that 11 years ago. Super fun. Dacia: Jeff's been podcasting ever since we went to an NFB conference and sat by the pool and Podcasted. Carol: I know it is super hilarious. It's like those organic kind of ideas really can bloom into something pretty cool. So at a high level, what is the Evolve Employment model and how do you think about the key components or buckets of the project? Dacia: Well, when we did our brainstorming, we looked at where could we improve and not just improve the customer experience, but the way that the staff do their work. The DIF grant allows us to really be in, it's in the title innovative. It allows us to try things. Really the idea is to try different tactics, different strategies, different approaches to things in the VR program that improves outcomes, improves experiences for staff, improves experiences for participants, and really leans into that dual customer approach to delivering services. Carol: Pretty cool, I love that. So what about the buckets in this project? I know there were different kind of fingers that you were looking into doing a lot of different things. Dacia: Well, a couple of the things that we're doing is job retention. We know that it's so much better if somebody can keep a job, it's better for the employer, it's better for the person, it's better for just everyone. So really looking at retention, also looking at how can we use workplace activities in order to help individuals that have limited experience in the workplace, limited experience with work in general, just the idea of work, you know, they may be somebody that's newer to work, maybe somebody that just hasn't worked in a long time, but just giving them some workplace activities under progressive employment. So looking at job shadows, tours, and it's something that VR does anyways, but this is done more intentionally and a little more structured to see if this makes a difference in people's lives, if people will choose better outcomes, because now they're being exposed to different types of careers than they would be normally. And so we have that progressive employment also looking at how can we speed things up for people, not speed things up to where we're rushing people through the process, but speed things up in a way that helps people stay engaged. We know looking at the data, that the longer it takes for somebody to get into a plan to get any services implemented, the more likely they are to drop off. And so looking at how can we make this faster for people, but in a meaningful way. And then looking at other aspects of where in the VR program we might be falling short, and that would be, besides the retention, looking at the training aspect of things, especially in the customer service and technology sectors. So looking at how can we get people into technology based customer service roles and building possibly a training program ourselves that can be passed down to the general program and using the training that already exists for individuals. And we're not looking at degree programs, we're looking at certificate programs, short term training, things that can help people get into a career faster. Not everybody has the luxury of taking a step back. Some people have to provide for their families. Some people just really don't want to go down that path. They want to get into a career as quickly as possible. So how can we lean into that training? Carol: That sounds awesome. I'm excited about this. I know when you and I had spoken before, you talked about this being like, you're kind of building the ship as you're sailing it. What does that look like during this first phase of implementation? Dacia: Well, in the beginning, we had picked up a bunch of staff from the General Vocational Rehabilitation, VRS, when they unfortunately had to have some layoffs. So we were able to grab some of their talent. And when we put together the position descriptions we put together, you know, what we thought we needed. And then as we started hiring them and then more staff, we realized that these staff had amazing talent. Besides what was just what was needed for this grant. So we were able to look at where does their talent lie and how can we help not only advance our project, but set our staff up because this is a short term project, so how can we set them up for their careers after they're done? And so looking at is their leadership ability there? How can we help them lead projects? Is there training opportunities? Are there other things that they can bring? Are there ways to expand this a little bit. You know, one of the things that we decided to do was job retention. The initial intention of that was how can we keep people into positions that they want to stay in? It's working for the employer, but all of a sudden it's not working because the disability changed or the disability appeared. We have Callie our Retention Specialist, who comes with a whole lot of experience and knowledge in working with the Dual Customer, and she's really working hard to build out our retention program. I should actually mention that in this, we have four targeted audiences that people would need to fall into to be eligible. One is they are at risk of losing a job. Another is they are unemployed for 27 or more weeks. Another is at risk of losing a job, unemployed for 27 weeks or more. A new American with a legal right to work. And the fourth one is somebody who acquired their vision loss during their working years. So if somebody falls into those categories, they're eligible for our program. We are doing a Functional model for disability versus a medical model. So with that, we have been able to capture numerous individuals that would normally not qualify for our general program because of the medical model. And so we were able to take people that had nowhere else to go and were going to lose their job. And we've been able to save over half a dozen, probably close to a dozen jobs now for people that would normally not qualify for services. Carol: That's really cool. So what do you think are 1 or 2 innovations within the model that you think are really making the biggest difference so far? Dacia: We knew that retention was important and that it should be done intentionally, and we knew that we didn't have a solid retention program procedure process in the general SSB program. So we started looking at how can we really make this difference? And we actually expanded it not just for people at risk of losing their job, but one of the things that we're doing is for the VR program, expanding on that stabilization period. So those individuals that get their job and they're employed for 90 days, and then they make the couple contacts with the counselor and really close to that 90 days, they quit their job, they maybe get scared of losing benefits. Something happens with the employer and they just haven't really made contact with their counselor. So what we're doing is that we're doing stabilization services. So a counselor can refer somebody in those 90 days, and that Career Navigator becomes somebody that they can connect with. They are the coordinator of all the services. They are able to work with the employer. They are able to, if they're county services involved, pull those in, they are able to pull other resources in. And all of our Career Navigators have all the way to level three benefits planning training so they can look up benefits for people. Which is something that we've never done before, really embedded benefits into everything we're doing. So it helps individuals. They have this person that they can go to, they can ask questions about their benefits. It's just a really a wraparound service. And then after their 90 days, the intent is to allow them to continue to be able to contact that person for the next year. If something comes up, we can get back into services with them right away if we need to. We don't have to open up a new sequence with them. They can just jump in and do stuff. So that's one of the really cool things that we're doing, and we're finding a lot of need for that way more than we even thought. We knew that retention was a huge thing. And looking at our really ambitious numbers that we said we would do, we're going to have no issues at all hitting that because it's turned into a huge thing. I should also mention, one of the other buckets that we're doing is benefits planning. So we have a Benefits Navigator that's able to look up benefits, that's able to do all kinds of things. We even had a situation that somebody, due to a clerical error, had gotten a letter that they owed tens of thousands of dollars in back Social Security, and they were going to quit their job. And there were all these things that were going to happen. And because of the Benefits Navigator is at the top level for benefits planning and has all the credentials to be able to do the work and all the training to do the work, they were able to find the clerical error and that is now being reversed. Carol: That's amazing. Dacia: Because of the work that she did with this individual and us having that, that person now can breathe. Carol: I like that, you know, I was thinking back in the day, we used to have Meredith. She was our benefits person. You know, we had the one person I remember customers talking to me. They were so worried about really staying employed because worried about losing benefits, you know, the whole thing and how to counsel through that. And I think you guys having this embedded in kind of every aspect and allowing that to continue on for the people the year after is really important. It just gives that sense of stability that someone to talk to when you're navigating this crazy, you know, there are big systems with all of that. And to really help you gain that understanding. So you're feeling comfortable with the decisions you make and what you're doing is super important. Dacia: And that really feeds into when I had said, we created these job descriptions and what we thought this was going to be, we had created a position for a Benefits Navigator, okay, And the intent was that they would do benefits lookup and they would do the whole benefits analysis. And that's what their job would mainly be with some training. But looking at that person that was hired, Marcy really has a lot of talent and experience behind her. She worked for the hub. She's done all these different things. So looking at expanding what her talent is and helping her really guide what this looks like for our entire program. It's amazing. And then not just that, you know, the original intention wasn't that our Career Navigators were going to have benefits planning, training. But one of our Career Navigators that came from VRS had that. And so we were able to look at, oh my gosh, look at all these things that they can do. And because we have Marcy, our Career Navigators, Kayla and Alex and our new American career navigator, Alexis are able to work together. She's able to mentor them. She's able to help them get the training that they need. So it's really leaning into all these things that everybody brings with them, not just what we thought, what we needed, and sticking to that, just really being open to letting our staff use the talents they have. We didn't have any intention that Career Navigators were going to be training counselors or training community partners, and then we end up with Alex, who has tons of experience with this, Kayla who loves doing this, you know, so letting them do the things that they love to do and the things that they really have a lot of talent in. So that's really helped us in the implementation of this, really leaning into what they bring and what they want to do. Carol: I know you were talking a little bit about your numbers. You mentioned it like, we're going to be able to blow past that number. What are some of the goals that you have for numbers with this project. Dacia: Some of the numbers are very ambitious. Our number for how many job retentions that we get, I think is 270, which at first I thought, that's really ambitious and I don't know if we're going to do that. I honestly think that we're going to probably hit 270 by the end of year three. Carol: Wow. Dacia: Like it's that much. Especially when we added the stabilization. Carol: Yeah. Dacia: And helping those people retain their jobs. That number is going to be huge. We also our outreach to businesses, we are going to surpass that by quite a bit. I think that number is 500 businesses total. And I think we are a little over a year and a half in. And I think we're already at close to 200. Carol: Wow. Good. Dacia: We have an amazing outreach person that we're sharing him with our employer, Reasonable Accommodation Fund. But Ray is out there and he is making connection after connection. And then we have Alicia, who also came from VRS during the layoffs. And she is our business engagement and training specialist. So she is making the connections with the businesses, the relationships. So really we have this talent that's doing this stuff. And Alicia's out there developing relationships with external training programs. So we're going to easily hit that number. Carol: Very cool. It sounds like you've got quite the team. I love it. You've been able to bring in all these folks that have these other like talents you didn't even know about as they come on, and they've been able to contribute so much more than you even anticipated. Dacia: Even our admin and fiscal person, Morgan, we couldn't do this without just like she pulls everything together, she keeps us all on track. She makes sure that we're focusing on the things that we need to focus on. We are very fortunate. Carol: So I know you're operating under a DIF grant, which can really feel different from a traditional VR program. How has your experience been working with your RSA project officer, and what's that partnership look like? Dacia: I would like to say Cassandra is amazing. Even if I come to her with the world's, and very responsive to. Which is super impressive considering all that she does. And then Doctor Deandra too. They are an amazing team. They are very real, which I so appreciate and so responsive and just. They answer the dumbest questions that I have and don't make me feel dumb. So I love it. Carol: That is awesome. Yeah, they're good people. I know. I hear about Cassandra all the time and the amazing job that she does. This is exciting. Well, she has a fun job too because you're working with these DIF projects, you know, and getting to see all this really cool stuff, innovation happening across the country. So I know you're really early in the implementation. You said you're a year and a half in, but you've learned a lot. What do you think are some of the biggest lessons you've learned so far? Dacia: Well, for sure, one of the things that we have learned is making sure that you look at your talent and making sure that you help them grow, because that was not our original intention and looking at their talent, it really has helped us to be where we're at. Making sure that we're working with the general program, communication with the counselors and the general VR program is so important. Even more important than we thought, keeping that communication open. Also adjusting and readjusting kind of what we're doing, what we're saying. I know that we've been building this as we go, which makes it so some things are very ambiguous, which can be very difficult for people to work within, but really helping people get through that. And part of that is letting the staff use the strengths that they have, because that will help get through some of that building the ship as you go and that ambiguousness. Carol: Yeah, I know, it's always exciting. You go from the back of the room chit chatting about this idea, and you put it on paper and it gets accepted. But as you get rolling along, you know, things come up and things change and evolve a little bit. So I like that it goes along with your title of your project. I like that that's the organic, wonderful nature of these DIF grants, because things do evolve as you're going along, and you're allowed to then expand and kind of contract and grow and shape it as the things happen over time, which is very, very cool. Dacia: It absolutely is. And flexibility is really the key here too. We all know that when you put things on paper and you have the intention of things going one way, that's not necessarily how they're going to go. And so you really have to be open to shifting and adjusting. You know, there are things that I envisioned going one way and then all of a sudden with new information, it's like, you know what? We're going this way and it's okay. It's okay to adjust along the way. But you really have to be flexible in this and not looking at it like I am building this program to be exact and live forever. I am building this program to be flexible, to adjust, to be able to be sustainable, whether it's the whole thing or components of this, to be sustainable in SSB's VR program, or even any other VR program that wanted to try some of these, you know, the lessons that we learn along the way in this, whether good or bad, are all important. Carol: Very true, very true. And it'll be really fun. I know you guys are all getting together this summer in June and there's a DIF Project Officer conference, and so I'm sure you're going to be attending that. Dacia: Oh yeah, I'll be doing that. Yep. I'm excited. I love those kind of things because you really get to know other people and you know, you can learn from their struggles. They can learn from your struggles, you can learn from their innovations. They can learn from you, from yours. So I love those opportunities to connect and just have fun. Carol: Yeah, I think it'll be great. So for other VR leaders listening, what advice would you give if they're thinking about trying something new or applying for a demonstration project like this? Dacia: I would say don't over think it. Start with that small seed of an idea and bring other people into it to really brainstorm and get creative with it. Make sure that you're communicating often with VR. Even if you are not in VR program, VR is going to be a key partner regardless. Communicate often and be very transparent in the communication, I would say. Don't be afraid to make mistakes. I know that anytime I have a question, if I think that we might be, you know, okay, well, can we do this? Or what if we do this wrong? Don't be afraid of that. If you have a Cass, talk to Cassandra will help you through it. Or your version of Cassandra, that's what they're there for. One of the things that we had done was we had decided to change one of our areas that we were focusing on progressive employment based on new information. It was super easy. We said, hey, we decided to go in this area. That was a mistake. We don't have enough people there, but we do in this area. Can we do this? Absolutely. So don't be afraid to make some mistakes as long as you're not doing something illegal. Carol: Yeah, yeah, let's stay away from that. Dacia: Let's stay away from that. Make sure that you're, you know, following the law. But as far as the program goes, don't be afraid to adjust and make mistakes because that's what you're here for. You're here to innovate and you have to take some risk in order to get that reward. Carol: Well, Dacia, this has been such a great conversation. What you're building is not just a project. It's really a glimpse into the future of what VR could look like. So thanks for joining us today. Dacia: Well, thanks for having me. Carol: You bet. And to our listeners, if there's one takeaway, it's this innovation doesn't start with a perfect plan. It starts with the question and willingness to try. Thanks for listening to the manager minute. Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

Artificial Intelligence is everywhere—but where does it actually fit in vocational rehabilitation? In this episode, Carol Pankow sits down with Dr. Robert Froehlich to cut through the noise and get real about AI in VR practice. This isn't hype—and it's not fear. It's practical, grounded guidance. 🔹 What AI should be doing (and what it absolutely shouldn't) 🔹 The ethical guardrails every VR professional needs to know 🔹 Why AI can boost efficiency—but can't replace judgment 🔹 Real risks: bias, hallucinations, and "too helpful" answers 🔹 How to stay compliant, confident, and in control The takeaway? AI can be a powerful assistant—but it should never be the decision-maker. Because when it comes to careers, independence, and life direction… that's human territory. Listen Here Full Transcript: {Music} Rob: Ai, Artificial Intelligence, is not and should not replace the professional.   She's listening to this podcast, and the professional said, don't be afraid that AI is going to take your job. However, do be concerned that your job could be taken by someone who knows how to use AI better than you. CRCC indicates that some of the potential benefits for AI could be increased counselor capacity, enhanced job exploration, skills credential matching, things like that. Intro voice: Manager minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today is Dr. Rob Froehlich from George Washington University, who's been thinking deeply about the ethical dimensions of AI and rehabilitation counseling. Rob's a colleague of mine and also serves on the VRTAC grant. So welcome Rob, how are you? Rob: I am doing well and thank you for having me today. And I have been thinking deeply. Let's hope that we get something worthwhile from all that deep thought. Carol: Oh, I'm sure we will. So we've talked on previous episodes about how vocational rehabilitation agencies are beginning to experiment with artificial intelligence. You know, we've got everything from transcription tools to drafting reports to analyzing labor market information. But today we want to take the conversation in a slightly different direction. Instead of focusing on what AI can do, we want to talk about what it should do and what it should not do. When you're working in a profession built on ethics, informed choice, and professional judgment. So let's dig in. So, Rob, before we jump into AI, could you share a little about your path into vocational rehabilitation and what led you to focus on ethics and technology in this field. Rob: Sure. Absolutely. Thanks, Carol. So I've been providing technical assistance and continuing education at GW in collaboration with state VR agencies for more than 20 years. I'm an associate professor of counseling, a certified rehabilitation counselor, and a licensed professional counselor. Most of my research has been focused around ethics, because I've always found that to be a really fascinating sector. There's some topics in our profession that are right or wrong and are dichotomous in nature, but really the vast majority of topics we deal with fall somewhere in between. In the past, I've been the chair of the CRCC Ethics Committee, and in that capacity, I had the ability to sharpen my ethical decision making skills. But to your question, why ethics in AI. I feel like we're at an inflection point, and many people are trying to figure out where AI fits, what it is, what it can be used for. And rehabilitation counselors are but one population asking the question of how will AI impact my work? To put this inflection point in this moment in time that we're at into context, think about some other big inflection points the industrial revolution, the movement from horses to cars, or more recently, things like the introduction of social media or even the pandemic. Absolutely. Every one of them changed the way that we do things in society and in our world. So they're all big changes. But even this AI moment that we're in, we can navigate through this. Carol: I think so too. I like that you brought up all those other big inflection points because I thought about back when I was at State Services for the Blind and we were emailing parents, and parents were going, hey, could you just text us like, we don't, we don't really check our email anymore. And it was this huge to do. Yeah. Can we let counselors text people instead of emailing? And oh my gosh, we agonized for months and wrote up policy and all the pieces. But you know what? It all ended up working out just fine. Rob: Yeah. So Carol, I'm reminded when I talked about social media, Oh, forever and a day, I was doing ethics and social media training. And when we started out, the whole message and it kind of relates to what you're saying, the whole message was, and I'm going to date myself here, but like a kind of like a Nancy Reagan just say no. Which ,back in the 80s, there was this big program of that's how to deal with addictions. Just say no. Now, we all know it's much more complicated than just say no. But as that message evolved, so did our message with social media and really like the Just say no was like, oh, no, never. Like don't friend, don't do, don't, don't use anything. Yeah. We found effective uses for it that still are in compliance with policy that still relate to legislation. So I think we're going to probably start like probably a little tighter with AI and then things that are going to naturally evolve over time as they tend to with big revolutions like this. Carol: Yeah, that's a really good point, Rob, because it does. Everybody starts out having, you're kind of in a freak out mode. You're like, no, nope, we're not doing that. Oh, we're going to just a little bit in there. And now you're like, I can't even believe we had a fit about that. Like, it just seems such a part of every day that everybody texts, you know, like stuff like that. You just... Rob: Exactly. Carol: It becomes normal. So a lot of professions are talking about AI right now, but vocational rehabilitation involves helping people make major life decisions about careers, education and independence. So what makes the ethical conversation around AI particularly important in rehabilitation counseling? Rob: Yeah. So the first thing that comes to mind for me that I want to just stress for people is that AI, artificial intelligence, is not and should not replace the professional. It's really important for us to remember that AI, artificial intelligence, is a set of tools and things that are supposed to be helpful to us, but they're not supposed to replace the functions that we play. One of the essential functions that I'm speaking about, the essential functions of being a counselor or a rehabilitation counselor, is the use of critical thinking as it applies to decision making for people that we collaborate with and provide services to. One of the biggest reasons that we're paid for professional function is to use our critical judgment. We don't want to abdicate that to another entity. We want to make sure that we're using AI tools as just that tools to make things more efficient where possible. And we want to make sure to protect confidentiality, like almost above all, to be able to have oversight regarding decisions that are made, but at the same time. So we want to get that efficiency. We want to kind of have oversight, but we want to make sure that we don't delegate tasks or decisions to AI that go back to those life decisions about career, education and independence. Information is one thing, but decisions is an entirely different set of principles. Carol: That is such a good point because when you look at when you put anything into, whether you're using something like ChatGPT or Notebook LM or Google Gemini, you know, or even Microsoft Copilot, you've got all these different types of AI tools that can sit alongside and help you do something, but it's not like you can just throw in a question and it's going to perfectly answer it. This is it. Here's the beautiful plan for the customer. And somehow they know them and all the nuances about that individual, that just isn't the case because you would have to feed it so much stuff. And it's not the counselor. It doesn't have, you know, it does have, I don't know if you call it thinking ability or how it does its reasoning or brings up, It's, you know... Rob: Well it's math. It's just basic math. It's yes, no, yes. No. Carol: Yeah. It's not the human element and all the other parts of it. So you can't just like abdicate. I still remember last year we were somewhere in one of the states, and the hotel was trying out robots that were bringing things to your room, like, say you forgot your razor and you called down to the front desk instead of a person running up, this robot showed up. But I don't think we're going to have robots taking over the hotel and making the beds and doing all the things I think people envision. This is like Terminator, you know, when you had all the little whatever they were looked like people and then they're back into their little metal bodies. I don't see that. I mean, just not yet. Rob: Yeah. Caro: So rehab counselors always emphasize things like informed choice, confidentiality and professional judgment. How do these values shape how we should think about AI in practice? Rob: Yeah. So those are really high level and important topics for us to discuss. And as a part of informed choice and everything that we do in vocational rehabilitation is about informed choice and is centered around informed choice, but as a part of informed choice, we want to make sure that we have the capacity to understand and to be able to explain what tools we're using, why we're using them, and what the intended outcome of that tool is. So as counselors or professionals who are using AI, we want to be able to answer when people have questions, why did you do that and how does that work? We want to have that capacity to be able to explain that. We want to make sure that clients, first and foremost, consent to us using AI in our work with them. It's their choice to be able to decide, do they want that to be a part of the services that they're receiving? We want to know where any information that we enter into a tool, for lack of a better term, go. Where does it go? Does it go to a cloud? Does it go to training AI? Does it go to other people? We want to know where that information we put it goes and what might be threats relative to personally identifiable information or protected health information. Anytime there's a threat, we want to avoid using the tool. So a big distinction, there's a difference between a closed system of AI and an open source tool or a public facing tool. You just mentioned a number of publicly facing tools a moment ago. Closed systems keep information within an organization's own sphere, if you will, and calculations and decisions don't go beyond the walls, if you will, of that sphere of that organization. Whereas an open source system like ChatGPT, for instance, will include the data entered into the systems for their own training purposes of the model. And they don't protect confidentiality. And they also have the potential to introduce bias based upon what has been entered into the system. They're really it's more like a quantifiable thing. The more information that goes in, the more it's going to likely lean to that. But what if that information is wrong? What if it's inaccurate? It's still going to rely on that because it has a depth of information to draw from, if that makes sense. Carol: Absolutely. I mean, you have to trust but verify. There's stuff that goes in. You can't just go, oh, this crazy thing came out. It's all good to go like, uh, uh, because the information is only as good as what it has been kind of fed before. And if it starts putting all this other, your math reasoning, you know, on to it, it can come up with some really weird stuff. Rob: And I want to make sure to say I'm not the AI dream killer. I think it's awesome. I think it's wonderful. I think it can do really great things. But as of all tools, like it's good for some things and we're going to talk about that and it's not intended for some other purposes. And we don't, we want to stay out of that neighborhood. You know what I mean? Carol: Yep. I'm really curious. You know, like I think it was notebook LM, so George Washington University has a listing of different AI tools that the, you know, the campus has said, yeah, we're good to go with these. We have a closed system with some of those. So they've been able to somehow, I guess, work with the company so that our application doesn't go anywhere else. It doesn't feed the model to like train it. The information stays there. So I thought that was super interesting that they did that. Rob: Yeah. You know, and I do think that other organizations and agencies and entities are going to be learning about that and how that fits for them and are going to make some decisions. But it's important, as the user of the system, to understand that distinction between just all out there, something that's more of a closed system. Carol: Yeah, really good point, Rob. So the Commission on Rehabilitation Counselor Certification has started issuing guidance around AI and ethics. What are some of the key ethical considerations counselors should be aware of right now? Rob: I'm glad you brought that up. The document that you're referring to is a document entitled Frequently Asked Questions and Guiding Statements to Support Certified Rehabilitation Counselors using Artificial Intelligence. You can find that on the CRCC website CRCCertification.com. But let me kind of give you a little high level overview. The first thing that is recommended is that professionals using AI learn about what AI is AI literacy, right? So distinctions between things like large language models, generative AI, machine learning, deep learning, natural language processing, and agentic AI. It's not the topic of our conversation today to go down a rabbit hole on all of those topics, but know if you go to this document, they're going to give you a really nice description of what are all of those things. And it's important because, you know, we hear AI and we're like, oh my God, like it only came out when ChatGPT. That's really not true. Ai has been around for ages. Like a simple example is spell check, right? Spell check really has an artificial intelligence piece of it. And how many people, let's be honest, how many people can really spell anymore now that we've become reliant on that little squiggly line or whatever underneath. So like I said before, I'm not kind of trying to be the dream killer, but like, let's put these things in context and let's use things that make sense and things that don't. We want to avoid that. So other recommendations protect client confidentiality. Don't put PII or PHI into a public facing tool. Only use a HIPAA compliant system that your agency has thoroughly vetted and has a BAA. What's a BAA? Well, I'll tell you, it's a Business Associate Agreement. Right? And so let me give you an example. So I also provide counseling in a private practice, right? We do a lot of virtual telehealth counseling. We use a Zoom based product, but it's not Zoom. Just regular zoom would not be protected and would not be encrypted. We use something called Secure Video, which uses Zoom as the platform, but it's an encrypted system, so it's safe. So it's the same deal with AI. You want to use the encrypted, more secure version that your entity will have an agreement with. Couple of other things. You want to uphold the principle of informed consent. Clients get to choose if they're okay with you using AI. You want to think about how you can use AI tools with clients or consumers or participants in ways that make sense. It lends itself to some of the things you said before, Carol, right? Job market analysis, document drafting, skill credential matching, reviewing large groupings of information from things like policies and procedures or legislation. Rob: And those large groupings of information can then be broken down into manageable chunks of information. CRCC indicates that some of the potential benefits for AI could be increased counselor capacity, enhanced job exploration, objective analysis of situations with that skills, credential matching, things like that. Clinical documentation, enclosed AI platforms. There are entities that will allow for note taking of meetings with clients or sessions. Now first off, you're going to need to have consent on that. And second, you're going to need to learn how the system works, right? We use something called therapy notes and practice. And it gives you multiple levels. Like it'll literally be there and listen to a session and then help with a note afterwards. Now I have to say personally, super uncomfortable with that. Even if I have consent from clients, I'm not likely to use that. But is that generational? It could very well be. I've heard good arguments either way, but the very first starting point is make sure anytime anything is recorded that your client gives consent to that. It's also going to have the potential to impact what clients will share with you if they know it's being recorded. So just a thought there are a couple of other things. You want to help clients and counselors, yourselves and your clients. You want to help them to understand things like foundational knowledge, understanding AI, critical evaluation. Okay, so here's a really important one looking for based upon your professional background stuff that doesn't make sense. It might generate a response. And based upon your education and your training, you might be like, okay, that makes sense. And that makes sense. But that thing in the middle, oh, that doesn't make sense at all. That's really important in terms of responsible AI use, because you can receive things referred to as AI hallucinations, right? If it doesn't know an answer, instead of saying, I don't know. It's going to make something up. So it's really important to think about that and to respond accordingly. Carol, I feel like you had an example of something like that that happened recently that you and I chatted about. So you were like, okay, I put this policies and procedures manual or some sort of legislation in, and you were like, I need you to help kind of summarize real quickly. It came back and like a good portion of it was really helpful to you. But in the middle, you were like, that is just absolutely wrong. And so you put back in, you were like, blah, blah, blah is wrong. And it actually almost did sort of like a tongue in cheek like, oh, you got me. Carol: Yes, yes. Rob: Sorry about that. Right? Like trying to respond. Right. Carol: It does that a lot. It's really funny because we work a lot with policies and procedures. And so when we're trying to like synthesize or make something plain language, it can be super helpful for that because sometimes people write really verbosely and you're just going, oh my gosh, nobody's going to read, t's too dense. So you get it to kind of sort it out and then it'll just take some random wacko piece, throw it in the middle, and you're like, this has nothing to do with what we have at hand. And I always do that, I'll type back in, where'd you get that? That wasn't even that didn't make any sense. That was dumb. Sometimes I say like, I'll be like, what are you doing that's bad? And it'll be like, oh yeah, you feel like you're talking to a person then because it is like, you caught me. Yeah, you caught me. Good catch. Oh, good grief, ya think? Carol: Yeah, thanks. Rob: But there also is like the environmental impact of AI that is a consideration. And  so there is this consideration that kind of conversing with AI is impacting resources and what have you. So I just put that out there just for a consideration for everyone. One of the other really important things about learning literacy is about prompt engineering. Learning how to give clear ethical instructions to AI, tools to elicit useful, unbiased information, and to be compliant with policies. So can I start at like a really basic, like personal example that's super simple about AI prompting? Carol: Sure. Rob: Okay. Prepare yourselves. This is not clinical in any way, shape or form, but in terms of prompt engineering, a recent example of that occurred for me. So, I'm a runner. I like to run. I like to listen to music while running. It takes a lot of energy to kind of find the right playlist. And I have like most people, I have very diverse., I'm as likely to listen to Taylor Swift and Lady Gaga and Beyonce as I am to the hair bands of the 80s, as I am to disco, as I am to country music, whatever, right? So there's something on a streaming platform that I like. It's called the AI DJ. Okay, all the AI DJ is, it's like a first level. It goes into what you've listened to. It generates four songs you've already listened to, and then one that maybe is like them. It's a real basic level. I got super excited a couple of weeks ago. There's a whole new line on this streaming platform that says, for instance, one of the prompts kind of has some pre-loaded prompts. I want songs that are similar to what I listened to, but with a demographic ten years younger than me. Who doesn't want to be ten years younger, right? So I'm like, cool, okay, awesome. So I generate songs that I haven't heard before, artists that are related to the ones that I like. And I think that was like kind of the majority of them, right? So, all right, awesome. Generates information. And so I start running and it is like all of this like slow country music. And I'm like, all right, like on another day. Maybe the prompt that was missing there was the beats per minute. Like it, it wasn't there, right? So you're going to get something and it's going to be all the things that you think, but you might have forgotten to ask for one important question that is going to drive. The whole process has nothing to do with rehabilitation counseling, but I hope that that kind of demonstrates it's really important how you ask. Carol: Yeah, that's a great point. Very true. Really good example. So when people are talking about AI, Rob, it often swings between two extremes. Kind of like in the beginning, you were like, just say no, Nancy Reagan, we should never use it at all. And others think AI should do most of the work for us. So where do you see the responsible middle ground for the VR professionals? Rob: Let me just start with like a real quick, there's a book on change management. Our Iceberg is Melting by Rathgeber and Kotter. Okay, so the real premise is simple. There's this group of penguins that are living on an iceberg, and one of them realizes there's a crack and the iceberg is melting. The whole story is about how they manage and navigate during this time of change. But one character has relevance to a story I want to tell you. One character is this gruff and grumpy older fella, and his name is NoNo, and he's named NoNo because his response to any kind of change or any kind of anything is like, no, absolutely not, not now, not ever. So I had sort of like a NoNo moment last year. So I was on this trip was this active hiking, biking, kayaking thing. My wife and I were on this trip, small group of people, six people in total. Everybody was a medical professional, physical therapist, a doctor, a disability management exec, me a counselor. Anyway, everybody was somewhere in there, right? Everyone other than me came down on the AI is going to make work so much more productive. It's going to transform things and sectors of the employment will be changed, evolved or eliminated forever. And I was like, no, not now, not ever. I feel like I've kind of evolved a little bit since reflected and begun thinking, hey, what can we take that's positive and how can we safeguard against the stuff that is not really good? So back to your question, like all the time, never, I say at this point, don't be frightened of it. Be curious, but understand that guardrails have to be in place to secure data confidentiality and informed consent, and realize it's not for everything. We have all seen the extreme examples of AI giving absolutely awful suggestions for people having mental health crises. So don't use it as a therapist. And we're going to talk in just a bit about some limitations inherent to AI that would relate to it, giving ultimately awful information in a mental health crisis. With that said, do realize it can give credible information about role playing job interviews. It can talk about labor market segments. It can synthesize vast amounts of information. As long as you superimpose your expertise on it and make sure it's not making stuff up, right? So be curious, be cautious. One other piece of information that I find personally helpful is I'm navigating this change is something one of our associate deans at GW shared in a meeting. She said she was listening to this podcast and the professional said, don't be afraid that AI is going to take your job. However, do be concerned that your job could be taken by someone who knows how to use AI better than you. Carol: You know, that is funny you say that because I've been seeing more and more. There's just lots of articles, especially on LinkedIn. Like you need to understand how AI can help you in the workplace. Like you can't just let it go. And so there's lots of little ten minute videos or little clips and things to help get you a little bit more acclimated instead of being like, oh, AI is out there and it's this thing and you're in the ether and I'm scared of it. And I don't know really what it means. And you think of the Terminator, you know, instead. So that's a fair point. So counselors are trained professionals. They bring judgment, experience, human understanding to their work. How should counselors think about the boundary between AI assistants and their professional judgment? Rob: Yeah. So again, AI should be considered as a set of tools, not some vast entity that can play all the roles and functions that counselors play. So to your Terminator reference to, I always want to be considering myself and I want AI to know, and I know that that's a silly term because it doesn't really know. Like it's an, it's not an entity, but I want AI, the tools that I'm using to know I'm in control. And I always want to have the opportunity to check behind AI for the little fibs that might make up. So the first deals with sycophancy, right? And so what is sycophancy? It is the tendency that AI may want to please the user by reinforcing existing biases rather than offering clinical challenges. So it's going to tell you what you want to hear sometimes. So you've got to be aware and factor in, maybe it's trying to tell me what I want to hear. When you look at people getting information about things like couples counseling or relationships, a lot of times it'll come down on the giving of information that is like, oh, you're right, you're totally right. That's how it is. Something that you really want to be thinking about in terms of balancing from a multicultural perspective. AI can suffer from algorithmic bias, right? And what does that mean? AI systems are trained on historical data, which often reflects and perpetuates social and structural biases. So therefore, what it generates may lead to unfair or inequitable recommendations that limit opportunity for marginalized groups. And that's not a really small consideration to think about. Also, remember, I was just saying before about mental health crises and why this would be a challenge. AI is based on math. AI doesn't have feelings. In short, AI can lack empathy and clinical context. So as I mentioned before, these shortcomings from above, it's trying to please you may be problematic in terms of suggestions from a multicultural perspective, and the fact that it doesn't have empathy. All present significant challenges regarding clinical recommendations from AI. And that's not me hating on it. It's just being objective. Carol: And now I learned a new word of the day that I'm not going to be able to say, but I can spell it. I think it's s y c o p h a n c y. Everybody can go look that up. Your special word of the day. Rob: And Google's wonderful. It'll give you also the opportunity. It'll pronounce it for you. And I've heard it like five times and it's gone in and out. Carol: That's cool. So are there decisions in VR practice that should never be delegated to AI tools? Like what would be the hard stop for you? Rob: Yeah. So these are my opinions on the hard stuff. Eligibility determination and the absence of any other data eligibility determination in the absence of me going behind and making sure that what is suggested makes sense. Fiscal spending or denial in the absence of any other data. Again, you want to be able to use your critical thinking. Counseling and guidance without any oversight. For all of the above mentioned reasons, we just talked about documentation without any check behind having it just do your notes without ever looking at them. You don't know what is in there or not in there. That should be in there. So those would be kind of the hard stop areas off the top of my head for me. Carol: Because it can hallucinate. So you have those notes. Rob: Or it can transfer who said what. Carol: Yes, absolutely. Oh, that's really good advice. So if a VR counselor or agency leader is listening right now and wondering how to approach AI responsibly, what's one piece of advice you'd give them right now? Rob: I would say learn what you can regarding AI basics. Think about the legal implications in your state and how implementing AI usage is impacted by those implications and that context of your state. In the words of the American Counseling Association. AI guidance stay open, informed and cautious. Also, like I mentioned before, realize more rudimentary forms of AI have been in place for years. They just haven't been so publicly known or prominent, right? So we've been kind of living with it for a while and it hasn't bothered us. But now that it's taken on a broader perspective, now is that inflection point. So it's not like this is all brand new. So just think about your own reactions. Carol, that was such a great example before about like texting, like, oh my God, can we text people? Oh my gosh, can we text people? We're sort of at that point, like, what can we use this for? What makes sense? Technology can be super helpful, but let's just be careful out there in terms of how we use it. Carol: Very good. I kind of remember that you did a webinar I believe recorded and probably for CRC credits on AI and ethics. Did you not? Rob: Yeah, I'm sure that CITVR, I'm sure there's multiple. Carol: Yeah. Rob: And actually rehab symposium that Dr. Nicole Tichy, who had a prominent role in this document from CRCC. She directed the subcommittee that generated the document. But Dr. Tichy and I just a couple of weeks ago, and it should be on CITVR pretty soon. Did a presentation on ethics in AI. Carol: Oh, excellent. So, Rob, before we wrap up, what are like three quick questions VR professionals can ask themselves when thinking about AI in their work? Rob: Yeah. First one might be does the tool that I'm using protect client confidentiality? Another might be sort of a self-check on myself. Am I relying on AI instead of my professional judgment? And then maybe a last one might be based upon what information is generated from AI. Have I verified the information before actually putting it in place or using it? Those are three quick things that kind of come to mind for me. Carol: Excellent. AI is likely to become, you know, it's going to be the future part of our work and invoke rehab as well. So the key is going to be making sure technology supports ethical, thoughtful counseling practice rather than replacing it. Thanks, Rob. Glad you were here today. Appreciate you. Rob: Absolutely glad to be here. Take care. {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

In the latest episode of Manager Minute, host Carol Pankow sits down with Michael Mackillop, Executive Director of the Washington State Department of Services for the Blind, to explore how one agency is rethinking how VR services are delivered—and the powerful results that follow. From dramatically shortening the time to services to introducing milestone planning that keeps customers moving forward, Washington DSB is demonstrating what can happen when agencies streamline processes and keep the focus on people. The conversation highlights real outcomes, including customers achieving meaningful careers with wages averaging over $39 per hour, and the cultural and programmatic shifts helping individuals rediscover confidence, expand their goals, and pursue careers they once thought were out of reach. This episode offers an honest, practical, and inspiring look at how VR leaders can rethink processes, strengthen partnerships, and build systems that help people move toward what's possible. Listen Here Full Transcript: {Music} Michael: A lot of customers. The feedback is it's great and a lot of counselors. The feedback is it's great. Carol: It makes brilliant sense because I think people spend so much time. You're letting perfect get in the way of the good. Michael: Learning as an adult is not easy. Learning to do new things, and the frustrations and the anger that can come from having to adapt to the environment that doesn't adapt to you. I think that now is the time, if any time is to show the power and the impact of vocational rehabilitation for the economy and for our communities. Intro voice: Manager minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today is Michael Mackillop, Washington Blind Executive Director. So how are things in Washington, Michael? Michael: Things are doing good. There's a little bit of Seattle Seahawks fever. Carol: Uh, yes, Seattle, Wahoo, Go Seahawks! Michael: And there's probably some growing excitement for hosting matches of the World Cup. So there's that whole sports thing. And today we're back to rain, which makes us feel it's just this nice gentle drip. It's not an atmospheric river where it's monsoon rain and all the snow from the mountains. It's just a nice, gentle rain. So things are decently good here in Seattle. Carol: Oh, good for you. Well, I have an affinity for the whole Seattle area. I have two brothers out there and lots of nieces and nephews and yeah, all the people I love to come. And I remember, gosh, Michael, I remember meeting you. I feel like it was like 13 years ago or something. Michael: At least, yeah. Carol: At least! (Michael laughs) Carol: You were friends with Jon Benson, my deputy, when I was at SSB. And so we got hooked together. And then I remember I would always tell Jon I'd be like, Call Michael, what are they doing at Washington Blind? Because, you know, you want to see what's going on? And in fact, I remember you guys calling us because we went on an Order of Selection, which is not common for a blind agency. And I remember when Lou Olma was still there, she had called. She's like, oh, you know, asking some questions about that. So I felt like we had some shared experiences together. Michael: Yeah. And we connected, I think, through CSAVR and NCSAB conferences and I mean plug out to them. It's just such an incredible place to really meet people from around the country and become long term supports. Carol: Right. It takes a village to do this job. So the more people you can meet, good shout out for like connecting with other people and just trying to build those relationships, because then you have them way over a decade later, you know, going on two decades later. Michael: And you don't have to go it alone. Right? I mean, to try to go through something like Order of selection, say, alone that... Carol: Yeah. Michael: But when you know, you got people or community of practices that are helping you through it. So it's  my plug to be connected to the national scene because you can't do it alone. Carol: 100%. I'm putting an exclamation point behind that one. Well, I happen to be perusing because I had my knee replaced last month. So as I'm laying and putting my leg up and icing and all the things, I was reading lots of the social media because I kind of was behind a little bit. So I'm in LinkedIn and, you know, accepting requests and connecting with other people. And I read, you're awesome, Michaels posting on LinkedIn, and you posted something and I just went, oh my gosh, it made me then go into your website. And then I'm like, all over your website and I'm watching your YouTube videos. It was super fun. So for our listeners, what caught me was Michael was reporting on this annual report they had done, and he was talking about the North Region team supporting 51 customers to attain their career goals, three of whom were able to retain their established small businesses. And then all the cool kinds of work people were in with STEM careers and education and finance and administrative and human services. And then it really hooked me with the average wage of 39.30 per hour. And then he does this nice Congratulations out to his folks. I'm like, what is happening there? Because that's what we want in VR. You want those family sustaining wages and all the good stuff. So long story short, listeners, I had to get Michael on and go, what is the secret sauce happening in Washington? What are they doing there? Because I thought this was super cool. So, Michael, before we launch into kind of what you're doing, I just want to get a little caught up on how did you start in VR? How'd you get there and how did you come into a blindness agency. Michael: Sometimes accidentally? Uh, perhaps a little bit reluctantly. I've been with this agency for 25 years, and I started as an AT specialist. I had experience in adult education in computers. And then I got a job, actually, at the lighthouse for the blind, Seattle Lighthouse for the Blind as an instructor. Where the supervisor, because I had studied American Sign Language, is a long story about why I did that and got connected in with Seattle's deaf community in the 90s and the Deaf Blind community as well. We have a very robust and vibrant deaf blind community in the Puget Sound area, and there were a number of individuals who were Deaf, Blind that were working at the Seattle Lighthouse that really needed computer skills. And so I didn't know anything about adaptive technologies, but I knew about Sign Language, I knew about computers, and I knew about adult education. And so that supervisor gave me six months. And to figure out the screen readers and screen magnifiers and braille displays and to start training. And so it was lovely to be able to, you know, directly communicate with students that, you know, hadn't touched a computer in their lives. That got me, you know, into the Blindness and Vocational Rehabilitation is a big part of, you know, people at the Lighthouse wanting to promote or work elsewhere. Uh, work out into the integrated community. And so there was experience with DSB. I was reluctant to be a state employee. I promise you that once I gave that up and got hired on a DSB, just the passion for the customer, the mission, the initiative, it kind of dispelled my notions of what a state agency is and who works at a state agency. So obviously I've loved it so much. I've been there for 25 years plus, so. Carol: That is crazy. I had no idea. You're I think you're my first guest, that's come on. That's come from this AT background. Good for you. Very cool. I love it because it's always fun to see people's paths in. We all take a different way, but you come in, and then you stick with it because you love it. Like you just love it. Michael: Exactly. Carol: Well, in your December's report. Oh my gosh, what really stood out I was I love the customer voices. You know, you had somebody on there, I think. I don't know if it's Francis working into her 70s, people that were earning promotions and discovering entirely new career paths. And when you look at all those stories, I just wonder from your perspective, what does success actually mean to you as a VR director? Michael: Yeah, I mean, I really love that the breadth and the depth of those career choices that people find through our services, their personal journey of discovery, finding the strengths that didn't know they had and that that's what excites me. And that's what I hear again and again and again. People not believing in themselves until they get some of those adaptive skills. It's so often the key to expanding their own self-assessment, their self-expectations. Losing your vision is traumatic, there's no question. And acquiring a disability as an adult. And that can really impact your belief in yourself and what you believe you can do. And for me, all those career achievements, they represent that journey of that person who I've heard the story so many times that they sat on a sofa thinking there is no future for them. There is no way to get into work. Their self-value had diminished so much because of the change in vision, and then something sparking that bravery of calling the agency. Whether they hear about the agency the first time or they've heard about it, and they get that courage up to call us, and it's a lot. I mean, to honor that connection, to say, I need to change. I need to get off the sofa. I need to do the work to be who I want to be. It takes a lot. And so honoring that those successes that we hear about the just a ray of education or healthcare or last year we had two physicians. We had two people that were physicians. And there's no career that's not possible for that individual, whatever that individual's aptitude and abilities are. It just takes the adaptations and the adaptive technologies and those the belief in themselves to do it. It's a lot of hard work. I mean, once people make the brave call and get into the work, it's hard. And so keeping people motivated through all the challenges and learning as an adult is not easy. Learning to do new things, and the frustrations and the anger that can come from having to adapt to the environment that doesn't adapt to you and those daily frustrations. Hopefully the agency is helping that individual through and to keep and progress. So those stories all just tell me about the work that that individual has done to get where they're at and knowing what a lot of challenge and determination and grit it took to get there. Carol: 100%! Preach Michael! That was good. That was really good. I know I always have that, I just have that place in my heart from my time at SSB, because I felt like the work we did was so profoundly, not that all the work isn't, but it was so profoundly life changing for these folks because so many of them, you know, came to us later in life. They were losing vision, either something medically was wrong, whatever was going on. But, you know, they had these careers and then they go from this place of utter devastation to absolute, like, you have completely changed someone's life. You just man, you could feel it in you like it was such an incredible deal living through that with our folks and what an impact that VR had. Otherwise they would still be sitting on that sofa, you know. Michael: Yeah. And then the work that they did, they were they're changing their lives and they're taking that direction and they're keeping up with it. We're supporting that... Carol: Yeah. Michael: But they're moving forward. Carol: It's on them. Michael: Yeah. Carol:  But we give them that glimmer like we're able to help point them in the right way. Like, here's some stuff and we can help you do the thing. Well, I know these outcomes your folks are having didn't happen by accident. And of course, people had come from different backgrounds and different careers. Or maybe they were in a business and didn't think they were going to get to keep it, but I feel like there's something going on in your agency as well. Knowing you guys and knowing you at the helm, what do you think are some things maybe you are doing differently, whether it's culturally or programmatically, that are really contributing to this level of your customer success? Michael: Yeah, there's been a lot of restructuring and change in our agency, and I would say that we are looking at that customer experience more closely and trying to really support the customer experience and not necessarily have the system support how we manage the work, but how the customer is making success. There's been a lot of discussion in the national VR community around time to services and the timelines that the federal regulations allow. When you look at that, when you look, when you think about it in your own life, would I be willing to wait 60 days before I know if I'm eligible, would I be willing to wait 90 days after that to start services? I mean, those timelines don't meet our modern needs, and maybe in the past it made sense to go slow. It doesn't. These days, people are brave enough to make that call after three years on the sofa. We need to get them into services so they start believing in themselves and are working. Excited about that path and just don't get frustrated by the process. So really our first thing is time to services. We created internal systems where we've got intake specialists, centralized intake specialists that are really shrinking the time to determine eligibility and to gather the information to convey to our counselors, our local counselors. So there's preparation there. And that's really shrunk the time. I think it was like 28 days on average and now it's 14 days. We'd like it to be a little bit shorter. Uh, even still, we know that observation for 85% of our counselor observation, we can determine that there's a disabling condition and then through that counseling conversation, can understand what those functional limitations are and what services might be useful in determining that eligibility. So our timeline lag used to be waiting for eye reports from eye doctors who it was never a priority when we knew that there was a visual disability. Carol: You can see they clearly don't have eye sockets or something is like clearly, clearly gone, we don't need an eye doctor report to tell you that. Michael: But letting counselors know and the intake specialists know that observation is valued, take it, justify it, document it, but let's move people through. Let's not keep people waiting for no reason. We've also restructured the way that we do our planning and the assessments towards the planning. We created something called Milestone Planning and that is really shrinking down the goals we're working on towards that long term goal of career path that we've got and we keep that in our heads. But what are the things that the customer is able to commit to doing now in the next three months, four months, up to six months? Let's focus on those. Let's shrink that down and let's have our assessment focus on, you know, be included folded into that and our services folded into that. It used to be our old system was we would do all these complete comprehensive assessments, and it would take months to get people in the eight specialists, and they'd write six page reports of all the things that would be useful. And the O&M specialists and rehab specialists would, you know, do the home assessments. And that's months of assessment. And people are like, what am I doing? This doesn't make sense. They're not getting the services. We're creating this five year plan with very detailed services for the entire time of the plan. And then the customer gets one service, they learn to do something and their whole universe expands suddenly. I thought it could only be a customer service, but oh my gosh, I can do this. Let's rethink it. We were doing a lot of work upfront for something that changes almost, almost instantly once we get people services. Well, let's get people services now. Let's have them experience, you know, learning how to use a computer, learning that they can manage their home or learning that focus small. And then the conversations about that long term goal can change. And when we created that really formal long term plan and did all the work, our customers were nervous about saying that they wanted to change. And so they either got stuck and continued that or they just disappeared. The other piece that customers have told us is they didn't know where they were going. They didn't have clarity on what they were doing, what, you know, it's just too vague, that five year plan. So getting more frequent and meaningful engagement between the counselor and the customer has been a goal of ours, and that has required us to shift some of the work and shift some of the administrative work. We took a lot of that upfront work and provided that to the intake specialists. So there's more time for the counselor. And then also talking about how we shrink what we've known as counseling and guidance, where we don't have to schedule an hour, hour and a half for these long term counseling and guidance sessions. But let's understand what our goal is, what we're trying to achieve, and check in at least once a month is our goal now. And to do counseling and guidance. And it may be a ten minute conversation about, you know, what are the obstacles, what's challenging you? What are your frustrations? What supports can we get? How's it going? That's all counseling and guidance that keeps people moving forward. And people often fell out because they didn't know to ask for support. Counselor contact once every 90 days. I mean, there's no relationship built there. Carol: No. They forget who you are. Like they, you know, they totally forget. Like, who are you again? And what are you with? Oh, yeah. That. Michael: And then the, the check in is how are things going? And the person says good, I guess. And the counselor writes, oh everything's great, but is it, right? So getting that more frequent and meaningful connection and conversation, knowing what the next steps are, keeping those goals small so we achieve them within three months from there and we build another goal from there has really been successful for I mean, it's new, mind you, it's new. A lot of customers. The feedback is it's great and a lot of counselors. The feedback is it's great, but it's really hard to change that mindset of the old way of doing everything all at once. Carol: I loved, I was so intrigued because when I, you know, of course, I went down the rabbit hole of your website. So I come in through the link you had on LinkedIn. I'm looking at the report and then I see, oh, what are these Milestone Plans, you know, and then I'm like, what is this? And then I watched the YouTube video and then I'm like, oh, well, this is going really well. It makes brilliant sense because I think people spend so much time, you're letting perfect get in the way of the good, because you're gonna have this beautiful plan and we're going to have it for five years and all these things. And then, quite frankly, I think you get probably a little annoyed because customers go along the way and then they're like, well, I don't really want to do that anymore. I want to pivot. I need to do this because as they're getting their skills of blindness, the world opens up and often they're like, yeah, I don't want to be the customer service person. I want to move now. Well, now you're annoyed. Oh, we're gonna amend the plan, you know, so when you make that kind of the process, things irritating to you that you're going to have to amend and do the things it'll make you crabby instead of just baking this in that we're not going to get so hung up. And we are creating the plan. We've got a goal, but we know these goals change and we're going to do an amendment and the persons involved and they're super engaged. Like it just seems so much more interactive. I'm like, Holy cow, that was you know, how many years has this taken for somebody to think of this, Michael? Michael: Goal and change is slow. But with this change, we are not leaving this. We're not just saying this is the change and then we're on to the next one. Carol: Yeah. Michael:  We are really sitting with this and you said bake it in. That is our mantra for this year is we're baking it in. We've made these changes last year. Now we've got to be sure that we're actually doing them. In the essence, it's not in name only. You know your Milestone Plan, you've got five years worth of services. Let's look at that and let's make sure that it's working. I had a really good conversation with a counselor yesterday who is super excited. And certainly what's helpful is, is getting some examples of how to shrink this down, how to shrink the thinking and how to shrink the, you know, down to something that's manageable and doable for that customer. So they know where they're going, they know what they're doing, and they know what the next step is after that. So yeah. Carol: It kind of leads me to my next thinking, because, you know, again, going back to your report and reading it, and I was so intrigued by people that also came in with kind of one goal. But as they get, you know, you get your skills of blindness, your world opens up and they left with something so much bigger. A big promotion, a new career or something that they had been dreaming about actually happened. How do you guys go about, because I know you're talking about, like, active engagement. You're doing this regularly, you're keeping in touch, but how do you really also create that space for them? So it isn't oh, we did our plan and here's your goal. And we're sticking to that like so that they can pursue the path that's right for them. Even though you might have set out on one way rather than that whole predefined outcome, that it's okay to pivot you're okay. Michael: Yeah. I mean, that is the key that people try things out and then it can change. And that's a value. It's not a negative that when someone tried this and then it they're like oh that's not for me. Well that's exactly what we want. We want that exploration. We want it in short bursts, so we're not investing in something and you realize five years later, oh, it's not for me. We want to know now. Let's figure that out now and let's find out if that's not it. What are some other things? We've had a lot of turnover. I think VR agencies have had a lot of turnover. And you know, since the pandemic, a lot of retirements, huge wave of retirements. And so the past year we've been stable in terms of not adding a whole lot of new people. And our focus is really building those skills and building that awareness and building those high expectations of our customers and not letting our own biases kind of drive where we want to guide the customer, but to be open to that customer and help instill the belief that self-belief for the customer and believe for the customer, because sometimes they come in and they do not believe in themselves. We've got to hold that, right? Carol: Right. Michael: We've got to hold that and then bring that customer up to it. And that's been a lot of our discussion and training for new staff. We also have real strong connections with our consumer organizations that help with that as well, and bring that connection to the blindness community. Even if our, you know, staff are not from that community, to make sure that we're understanding the community and expectations and what's happening. Being connected to the community we serve is critical. And through that, even if people have come from the general agency or come from outside blindness, really building that belief that Blind people can do whatever they're capable of. Right. Whatever that person can do, they can do it. Carol: I love it, I love it. Well, it kind of leads to my whole thoughts about you with collaboration because your report also highlighted, you guys talked about your partnerships, whether it's with employers or the tribal VR WorkSource and others. How do those relationships that you all have been cultivating translate into real opportunities for your customers? And how are you sustaining that, like really nurturing those relationships? Michael: You bet. It takes work and past history. I've been 25 years with a blind agency. We used to keep our heads low, keep under the radar, do everything in isolation. We had this weird notion that we could do it all. We're the only ones who know about blindness and rehab, and we'll do it all, whatever. And that's not true, because reality is. Blindness intersects all communities, and we need to find the ways to support people in where they're at, in their cultural expectations. And individualized services also means that any industry is a goal, is a potential career goal, and we need to keep ourselves on the cutting edge and understanding how to support people in any type of industry, understanding what opportunities exist so we can't do it all by ourselves. And there's the other notion that budgets are really tight. And even though other outside resources are shrinking, we need to do more to get our customers into those generalized programs that are out there for everyone and benefit everyone, and to have other parts of the workforce system be footing the bill, basically, so we can keep our dollars for the things that are unique to us, right? And tribal partners. You know, we've got an amazing relationship in Washington state region. We have ten tribal VR, AIvRS, American Indian Vocational Rehabilitation agencies here and then 29 recognized federal tribes. And we do have government to government relations and train our staff who interact with the tribal VR about government to government expectations and cultural expectations, but also understanding and helping our staff understand the value and the services that tribal VR can provide our customers with tribal affiliation that we're not able to. Those cultural healing practices are so critical for individuals. Tribal affiliations may also be pathways to careers that are on tribal lands or tribal businesses that we would not have access to if we didn't actively partner with our tribal VR partners. There's also, tribal VR does not get a whole lot of money. And so understanding too, that we're here to support tribal VR in all those visual disability sorts of things. We've got the expertise we can partner and provide those needs. So it's maximizing each of our budgets for that customer to have the maximum success. I think as well, the WorkSource, the American Job Center, the WIOA partners, I mean, all that as a blindness agency. We were left out of that for so long. And 2016, where we're part of that through the Workforce Innovation Opportunity Act. I for three, four years and still even today, I'm like, I'm from GSB, a title four WIOA partner with rehabilitation. Every time I introduce myself, I had to do that because they're like, who are you? What do you do? Why are you. Why are you. Carol: Why are you here? Yeah. Michael: So we have, particularly through our business relations team, and we just expanded that in the past two years, really have created some strong connections with our Workforce partners and with the American Job Centers and those opportunities that exist we don't have to pay for, there's a six week job readiness workshop that is put on. And the challenge has always been for our customers going to the WorkSource centers and the American Job Centers, we call them WorkSource here in Washington state. And just having no access, having no accommodations that people are clueless about, people with visual disabilities and how to make that accessible. So we've done a lot of work. Our business relations staff did a lot of work with this particular workshop and made it fully accessible, totally integrated. It's not just blind, only, it's all individuals that are eligible for those services. Our customers have been so thrilled with that experience, and even to the point where in front of the consumer organization conventions, they're taking the mic and just crowing about the experience in these job readiness workshops to the Workforce. So we're expanding that. But there are also other opportunities. There are pre-apprenticeship and apprenticeship opportunities, work experience, work based experience opportunities through the American Job Centers that we just never had access to, that we're starting to have access to. And it's getting our customers closer to their career goal through the partnership. Carol: I love it because you're really living into WIOA. You know, it's taken a long time across the country. It gets passed in 2014, but you're like, okay, what does that mean? And how is this really going to work and how are we really going to partner together? It's taken a long time for everybody across the country, but you start to see these pearls that are coming out of it, like you're talking about with the WorkSource and that training class, and now it's fully integrated like that is amazing because we still have places where it isn't happening. You know, people will tell you if a person who's blind or visually impaired shows up for a class, they're like, no, you got to go to Blind services. They do stuff over there. They can't come here. But the whole intent of Congress was to leverage all the partners together, because we each have our buckets of money, but we're better together if we can leverage those funds. Michael: Agreed. Carol:  100%. And you are living right into all of that. You need to do a presentation, my friend, at CSAVR or NCSAB, with all the cool stuff you guys are doing, I just think it's really awesome. Michael: It's taken a long time and it's been a lot of work. It's been a lot of effort, but I'm feeling like we're making progress now. Carol: That is so good to hear. So if you could offer a lesson, maybe a lesson you learned or something to other VR agencies, especially people that may be feeling overwhelmed or stuck. And I'll tell you, you have a lot of colleagues out there right now. Stuff's been tough. Based on the experiences you have, what would you want them to take away or what's something you'd just like to share? Michael: The easy one, a lot of things are coming to mind, but an easy one is to be brave. Examine. Really step back. Examine what is and isn't working. Don't. Don't hold on to how we've always been done it. And don't accept that or really shift your mindset to identify what you're really saying internally, as we've always done it that way it doesn't have to be. And so really understand what are your processes are working really well and let's find ways to expand those. But let's also look at the customer experience. And let's be honest about where our processes don't meet that customer need and meeting them where they're at. That's one of our values empathy, meeting people where they're at. Are we doing that? And let's be honest and let's be brave and make the changes. Sometimes you have to fight them. I mean, the whole counselor observation, RSA had some initial concerns, even though it's written into the law, had some initial concerns about what that means for determining eligibility, but it's written into the law, and counselors document that observation. And but sometimes you have to fight a little bit, push back a little bit where it makes sense. Change also is not easy. I mean, there's just been so much change externally, internally, and it's exhausting. But you also need to determine where you want to go and take the time to really mature that and facilitate that change. And we're talking about baking it in. Don't just be kind of shoop shoop, shoop shoop. Figure out what is the big change, what is the change you want to make. And it's going to involve lots of little changes. And people are going to feel like it's still this massive, you know, change after change after change as you tweak things. But let's really focus on that, get it through and then see it through. Do a pilot, get data, get input, analyze it, revise it, implement it more broadly, get data, analyze it, revise it, tweak it, get input from customers, get input from, you know, people. And then as a director, you've got to champion the change and you've got to talk about it. And Carol, I don't know about you or I hate repeating myself. It is a personal thing. I hate repeating myself. But that is the job, right? That is the job to say things and say them again and say them again and find different ways to say them. I mean, you caught some of my videos and that was my goal last year, was my emails that are very detailed and very interesting to me, are not super interesting for all my staff, but they really connect to video sometimes, or they connect to, you know, audios, or they connect to the in person fireside chats where they can come with any question. And we, you know, the executive leadership will discuss what's on their minds. There are different forms and formats for getting our story out and communicating, and we need to really do all those. And it doesn't have to be, I mean, you saw some of my videos in the newsletters and the reports. They're pretty amateur right there. Carol: It was all good. I liked it, though. I liked it because it was authentic. Michael: Yeah. You know, it's taking that TikTok mentality where it doesn't have to be, it's here and it's gone. But it gets the message out and it's supporting the change that you want to make. And it's not me as director talking it, but it's finding other people that are experiencing it and their experience and people connect in different ways. So that whole communication part of telling the story, I'm no social influencer. You found my story on social media, and I know it's important, and I'm doing the work now because it is critically important. we're also, those reports, those monthly reports, were highlighting different programs, and we're sending them out to stakeholders. We're sending out to the congressional representation representatives and their staffers, and we're getting notes back saying thank you for that. And I'm like, it felt very amateur, but I'm glad you appreciated the story and information. Carol: Well, I learned in communications class long ago, seven times seven ways, like for communications, because people all learn differently. Like you said, audio, video, you know, doing more like almost like the TikTok reel. We've got to get way better, snappier, shorter. I mean, we can thank Jeff Bezos for that with Amazon. Like people don't want to read a long thing. They want it quick. We want to get stuff. Now give me the little snapshot about this thing. And really our social media leads to all of that. Because look at you drew me in. I've known you, but you drew me in with your little short clip on LinkedIn. You had the really catchy part. I'm like reading that and I see $39.30 an hour people are making on average. I'm like, I gotta go see what's going on in this report. And I click your link and next thing you know, I'm in your website, I'm looking at your stuff, I'm in your videos and doing all the things. That's how people like think, now they got to get drawn in. What's your quick soundbite, your little piece that gets you hooked in. And we all have to get way better at explaining what is happening in the VR program because we just, I don't think have been very good about telling our message and our story. Michael: Agreed. And I think that now is the time, if any time is to show the power and the impact of Vocational rehabilitation for the economy and for our communities. So, yeah. Carol: Oh thank you, fine, sir. Well, I love talking with you today. I wish you every success in your agency, and I look forward to hearing more fun things and reading more things on LinkedIn. So thanks for joining me. Michael: I enjoyed it. Thanks so much, Carol. Take care.   {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

VR burnout isn't about caring too little. It's about caring so much… while buried in documentation. In this episode of Manager Minute, VR counselor Stephanie Nelson shares how she built VocRehabTools.com — a free collection of smart, practical tools (both AI-powered and non-AI) designed to give counselors their time back. 📝 Faster case notes 📊 Smarter assessments 🎯 Clearer job alignment 💬 Custom interview prep 📈 Real-time SSI earnings calculations Not to replace counselors. To free them up to actually counsel. We also tackle the real questions: ✔ Can AI be used ethically in VR? ✔ How do we protect confidentiality? ✔ What does human-first leadership look like in a tech-driven world? If you've ever thought, there has to be a better way to do this — this episode is for you. Listen Here Full Transcript: {Music} Stephanie: That's when I had the aha moment and realized, hey, I can build something that will automatically generate the types of prompts or complete the types of tasks that I've already been given AI to help me with my work, but in an even faster and more efficient way. I want it to be sure that I included reminders about how to use AI safely and ethically on the site. My goal is really just not to recreate the wheel, but to have the VocRehab tools be like a one stop shop for a variety of stuff that actually make our jobs easier. Intro Voice: Manager Minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today is Stephanie Nelson, VR counselor extraordinaire. So, Stephanie, how's it going? Stephanie: It's going well. Thank you for having me. Carol: I'm super excited about this. So for our listeners, I stumbled across Stephanie on LinkedIn. You know, I'm just scanning and her post, it caught my attention and I shared it with some coworkers. And Stephanie is a creator of some super cool, time saving tools that are meant to support VR counselors from doing all that excessive, crazy paperwork so that you all can focus on people. So I don't want to give away the farm before we get into this, so let's dig in. So, Stephanie, you've been in Voc. Rehab and Human Services for more than a decade. Tell our listeners a little bit about your journey and how did you find VR and what experiences shaped the professional you are today? Stephanie: All right. So I promise that I'm not going to give you my full life story, my journey in VR. It actually started when I was a very young child. My mom was and she still is. This is probably her last year, a very dedicated special education teacher, and she was a transition coordinator for many years as well. So I grew up with sort of this like front row seat to the challenges that people with disabilities face. So I even remember visiting the local VR office with my mom many times as a kid. And while I didn't understand what the heck vocational rehabilitation was, but what I could tell was that the people in that office and my mom, they were helping people overcome challenges to improve their lives. And that just really stuck with me, that you could have a job where you help people overcome challenges. And I just thought that was really, really cool. So another experience that I think shaped me to be well suited for VR is that I actually started working when I was just 15 years old. So I've always had like the value of work really ingrained in me. But when it came time for college, I did quite a few different trials and errors on different majors and programs and schools, and I finally landed in a fully online program for criminal justice with the plan to become a probation officer. Because I thought, what better way to help people improve their lives than to help them after they had legal issues? But I soon learned a hard lesson after doing some administrative work in that field, and that there's a big difference between helping people who want your help and trying to help people who are required to meet with you. So when I looked for a new career path where I could still apply my criminal justice degree, that's when I found an administrative role with Virginia DARS, fell in love with the mission immediately, and it was kind of a full circle moment, because that's when I finally understood exactly what they do at that VR office that I visited with my mom when I was younger. So within a year, I was promoted to what Virginia DARS calls the employment Services Specialist Senior role. And the more I was in that role, I realized that I really wanted to be a VR counselor because I wanted an even more direct role in helping clients and solving the problems. And I really wanted to streamline lots of the VR processes that I could witness in my employment specialist role, but I just didn't have the authority to change anything from there. So I went back for my master's degree, waited for the right opening, and stepped into the counselor role. And I've been here for almost four years now. Carol: That is amazing. I love your background. It's so fun because you come in from, I had a mom too that got me into the field. So it's really fun that you come in kind of when you grow up in that and then use that. It really does help to shape you. That is exciting. And I bet a lot of good people come out of Virginia DARS for sure. I've done several podcasts with other colleagues. Yeah, that you have there. You guys always have a lot of very cool things going on. I like how your mind thinks, because when you and I had a chance to chat and you talked about I always like improving things. So how did this concept for vocrehabtools.com really take hold for you? Like, was there some moment where you went, oh, we need a better way to do this or what happened? How did this come about? Stephanie: Kind of like you said. That's just kind of how my mind is. I've always been an optimizer, like, since I was also a kid. My brain just it naturally looks at any process. And I'm automatically going to ask, how can I make this better? How can I do this faster or more efficient? So since I started working at DAR's about 11 years ago, I probably said to myself that we need a better way to do this almost every single day. But as far as vocrehabtools.com goes, that concept really took hold just about 4 or 5 months ago, and it was actually sparked, you know, because I have that lifelong I'm always trying to learn. So of course, when AI has taken hold, I was really wanting to learn more about that. So it was sparked when I was listening to several podcasts about AI, and they kept mentioning how AI could be used to create apps. So one day I finally decided to give making an app a try myself. And when I saw that it was true that AI really could allow me to build apps and web pages quickly and easily, that's when I had the aha moment and realized, you know, hey, I can build something that will automatically generate the types of prompts or complete the types of tasks that I've already been given AI to help me with my work, but in an even faster and more efficient way. So it made me realize I could also do it in a way that I didn't have to just keep it to myself that other people could use it too. So that's it was about just a few months ago, and that's where it all started. Carol: That was super cool though. Your first post that I saw and then I'm following you, I'm like, I gotta follow this person because I really just gotta be in my network. I gotta see what's going on with this. I could not even believe it. I'm like, wow, it's super exciting and I love AI. I mean, Jeff and I, we've gotten to do a few different podcasts with different folks about lots of AI initiatives in VR across the country, but not quite like yours. Theirs is a whole different deal. So what kind of gaps or frustrations were you seeing in VR practice, especially when you talk about doing assessments and documentation and progress reporting that convinced you a new toolset was necessary? Stephanie: Well, for me, there were there were lots, but there's really three main frustrations in those areas that really, really pushed me to build this. And first and  foremost is that case notes and by case notes, I mean, good case notes. They just take too long to write. You know, I'm often on the move because I do adults and students and schools and all that. Or I'm working between, you know, all types of different demands. So trying to capture and document all the details and all the nuances of a 45 minute meeting or conversation you just had while you're in your car or while you're between appointments. It's just stressful. So by the time you sit down at a desk, you know, usually the mental spark is gone and the details are fuzzier and fuzzier. So that was the main one is case notes. The second was in terms of assessments. There's usually like a bottleneck with formal vocational evaluations. And they're either really expensive to outsource or they just take a long time to get completed. And when I say long time, I mean mostly from like the client's perspective, because, you know, they don't usually understand all of the logistics and the reasons why things take a while in VR. So where something may be quick in our eyes as VR professionals, from the client's perspective, it can seem super long, and I was always really frustrated that my options seemed to be either skip the formal evaluation so they can move forward and just run with whatever information we already have, or make my clients wait. So the assessment tool that I built on there was really to kind of bridge that gap. And the third main frustration was just the mental bandwidth issue of working in VR and documenting the progress and the case notes, and coming up with the individualized progress measures for every client and writing justifications and the quality case notes. You know, all of that. It just can really be mentally and emotionally draining. And even the best counselors, they can get burned out. So I saw a need that, you know, we need something that can at least do some of this heavy lifting for us to help save the mental energy, you know, for our clients instead of our case management systems. The bottom line is that there's going to be things in our documentation and data requirements that we maybe can't make more efficient, you know, like or right away. There's lots of limitations and regulations and all of that. But I just thought if I can make any, any part of our work easier, then that should help alleviate some of the overall load. So that was really my main, my main purpose. Carol: You've got counselors all over the country cheering right now. I can tell you because it has been something, you know, I've been hearing ever since our regulations changed with WIOA back in 2014. I remember my old staff like what just happened because it's always been complicated, but it got even more complicated. And we had, you know, 400 data elements to enter and all this other stuff. I thought we were going to have a mutiny. People were so upset. It just it's a lot. It's too much. Stephanie: It is. Carol: And how do you get back to counseling and seeing the people? I mean, that's the joy you get from your job. It's not, you know, pushing all this paper. Stephanie: Right. Carol: So for our folks who haven't visited the site yet, can you give us, like, what's the walk through? What do the tools do? Who are they built for, and what do you think is getting the most traction so far? Stephanie: So VocRehabTools.com it's basically a website. It's made of mostly, mostly it's the keyword AI prompt generation tools. So you don't just type in hope for a good prompt, you actually go to a specific tool and fill out specific fields for the various tools like the client strengths, their unique barriers, their goals, their functional limitations and all that. And the tool will then generate a high level, very detailed prompt that you simply copy and paste into your preferred AI tool to get a result. From there, you can do whatever you might normally do with an AI result, such as, you know, ask it to make certain changes, or write it in a new tone, or do it again or whatever. And you can even modify the initial prompt that's generated from the tools to suit any specifications you might have. Because, you know these prompts, I wrote them, but someone else might want them written a different way, so you can even change that. Like, you know, most of the tools are generating prompts, but those prompts are modifiable basically. And right now there's ten tools on the site. But I do have more on the way. And I do just want to be clear that there's at least one tool right now that doesn't actually require AI. And that's the SSI Disability and Work earnings calculator. So there's very likely going to be some new tools in the future that are similar in that they may not require the use of AI. And I say that just because I don't want people to think that the site is only made up of, or will only ever have AI prompt generation tools. But again, going back to the current set of tools on the site, if it's okay, I'll just run through and list them real quick. Carol: Sure. Stephanie: I think that might, you know, really give the best picture. So bear with me on the names. They sound really nerdy, but I think I think they do a good job of saying what they are. So we have the barrier buster, the job goal alignment checker, the progress measure generator, the remote work feasibility analyzer, the job coach training services, supported employment and customized employment rationalizer, a vocational assessment tool, the workplace readiness assessment, the job interview preparation generator, the voice case note editor and generator, and again that SSI disability and work earnings calculator. So as far as who is the tools are for I initially designed them more with VR professionals like VR counselors, evaluators, job coaches, all of those in mind. But I ended up actually building the tools so that they can even be used by any job seeker with a disability, or maybe their parents, or their caregivers or case managers, because I really started to realize that there can be multiple ways to use the tools. So, for example, VR professionals can use them in their work kind of behind the scenes. Or VR professionals can use the tools like in real time with their clients, like right there with them. They can even direct the clients to use the tools independently or with a parent if they have the ability to do so, like a homework assignment or a part of a virtual job club. I mean, just the options are kind of endless as far as how to use them. So there's a lot of flexibility built in and how they can be used. And I even realized after creating them how beneficial they might particularly be for new staff, especially new staff that are brand new to working with people with disabilities. Because, you know, when you first step into that, it's a it's a new world. There's a lot of unknowns. Let's see. So lastly, regarding the tools that are getting the most traction, according to Google Analytics, the top three tools visited so far have been the Workplace Readiness assessment, the voice case note editor and generator, which is also my personal favorite, and that vocational assessment tool. Carol: Very cool. I bet, because that case note business that takes a long time. Just like you say, you spend an hour with somebody or 45 minutes and then you have to go back and you're summarizing, and then you have four other appointments. By the time you get to it, it might be the next day. And the facts, you know, flee your brain as you've got so much stuff in there. I think that's super cool. I like that you said too, that you have some things that are not AI generated. There's other regular tools that folks can use because I know some people have that feeling like, oh, AI, you know, it can say scary, terrible things or wreck your stuff. So you always want to trust but verify like you.. Stephanie: Exactly. Carol: You know, you you're writing in your things and you want to look at how does it come out and if, especially if you want something to have a certain tone that's really lovely. Like, I'll do that. Sometimes I'm writing something. I'm like, can you give me a better tone that's firm but yet friendly, you know, or whatever, instead of sounding like, you know, crabby in it. So I love that flexibility with AI to really help you do that. Stephanie: Absolutely. Carol: I know that VR is really deeply personal work, and I just wanted to know your feelings about how do you think about balancing that professional judgment and ethics and individualized planning with the efficiency technology can offer? Because I know this is kind of a hot button issue with people like, oh, I could never use AI. What are your thoughts about that? Stephanie: I think that just solid professional judgment in all your ethical considerations. I mean, I really think or at least I hope, that those, you know, remain top priorities for anyone that works in VR, no matter what the new advancement or technology that might come out. And honestly, this was one of the primary factors that I considered it every single step of the way. When I was building the tools and the site itself, I knew that I would use AI in the tools ethically, that I wouldn't put in any personally identifying information. You know, I knew that I would use the outputs, just as those guiding recommendations and the starting points are rough drafts, but not the absolute answer, not the final product and all that. But I want it to be sure that I included reminders about how to use AI safely and ethically on the site. So on every tool near the prompt generation buttons, there's a bright yellow pop up box that reminds users how to use this technology in a way that's appropriate. Like you were saying, in addition to reminding people not to input personally identifying information. But I also really wanted to drive home the fact that these tools are for help. They're for enhancement. They are not replacement of human judgment or decision making. Ai just doesn't have the relationship with the client. No matter how much good data you give it. You know it doesn't have that, but the counselor does. So I really view the technology as, you know, like I mentioned, the first draft or like a research assistant. It's the help in the starting point. It handles all the data crunching and the formatting and the initial brainstorming. And I think that's what actually frees up the VR professionals, you know, mental energy and time so that we can apply that professional judgment and ethics where it matters most, like you said, which is in the human connection. Carol: So well said. You really did say that. Well, because people forget AI is not the be all, end all. Stephanie: No. Carol: it can only like give you back like you have to put stuff in. It's not going to spit out. You can't just put somebody's name in and go like give me an assessment that it doesn't know the person, it doesn't know anything. It has no context. So it's only as good as the information you put in. And I do like how AI can really help you with tone and maybe a way of describing something, because sometimes you have difficult situations and you're trying to describe it, but you want to do it kind of in the best way possible. And the words don't always come to us to do it that way. Stephanie: Right? Or like, you know, they can, but it would take a long time. Carol: Yeah, the time factor is amazing. So I love that you said that, and I love that you have those pop up tools. I'm wondering what kind of feedback are you getting from people so far? I know it's only been up for 4 or 5 months, but are you getting any kind of feedback from counselors or other professionals? Stephanie: Yeah. So right now the site is still kind of brand new. I have not actually received any like specific direct feedback and those types of terms so far. I've really just gotten the feedback like this is so awesome, I can't wait to try it. I can see how this is going to help, or I've bookmarked the site and all that, but no direct like quantifiable feedback yet. But I was thinking about that and I think I may know again, it's a new site, but I think it might actually be hard for me to maybe ever get that type of feedback. And here's why. Because I had my own hesitations in creating and publicizing these tools. You know, just because AI, like you said, it's still something that's new and not everyone is clear on how to use it or that it can be safely used. And I also see this being something where, for example, a counselor might be using one or all of the tools regularly, and it truly is making a difference in their work and helping their clients. But are they going to openly share that. Oh, I use VocRehabTools.com, That's a part of my success. You know, they might not want to just openly share that. Ai seems to be one of those things where we're all still adjusting to it. And like you said, there can be that fear if you're using AI, that people will think you're somehow cheating or that you're removing the humanness out of the VR process. So I think it's just still in this weird phase where more people are using it, but they might still be afraid to admit it. And again, I think that's totally valid. But I also think that the more we are open about how we're using it and how we're using it safely, that I think that stigma might eventually change. But so suffice to say, I do have plans and a hope to get more solid feedback going forward. But until then, the only specific feedback I would have would be my own. And I know I'm biased, but I am a VR counselor and so I can say that the tools really have allowed me to do my job even better. I love saving time, but the time saving aspect from using the tools is really kind of secondary. They've really just allowed me to do my job better. So I guess, for example, like now I'm able to quickly and on the spot give clients some real time calculations, like with pretty colors and visuals about how much more money they'll have when they're working versus just receiving SSI. And they're not just like listening to me say it, they're watching me on this screen and watching like it being calculated. So it gives it some more validity. So I've been able to complete vocational assessments that have really generated some good ideas that neither me or my client had thought of before. In terms of potential job goals for them, I've been able to create custom interview preparation plans and just like minutes. And one of them I actually shared with the parent of one of my students on my caseload and they were over the moon about it. I mean, like, to me, I was like, I just whipped this out like it's a plan. I mean, it's talking about how to practice for job interviews. But they were super excited about it and they couldn't wait to start working on it with their student. And I was like, oh, this is great. This is fostering parental engagement. Like this, yeah, this is cool. You know, if and if I didn't have the AI to print it out to be really custom for that client, I may just have not taken the 30 minutes to an hour that it would have taken me personally to do with just my own brainpower. So and like I mentioned, that the voice case note generator, that's really just been a lifesaver, because at most of my schools, the internet connection is so slow and the students come to me like back to back. So there's really no time for quality case notes. But with this tool, I can really whip them out in no time. And then I get to truly focus back on my students instead of typing the whole time that I'm with them. So my feedback, of course it's biased, but is that it's really been good, but hopefully we'll get some outside feedback in the future. Carol: No, that's all good, I love that. Well, you clearly are thinking ahead, I can tell. And you're looking to the future and continuing to build. So what is next for you? Are there more new tools or partnerships or collaborations or expansion ideas you have? Stephanie: Yeah, so I mean, I definitely have some new tools in mind. A couple that are currently in the works is a transferable skills generator, like a matrix, a task analysis tool to easily break down common work tasks into step by step lists. Really thinking about like maybe job coaches for that one and another one that I'm actually really excited about is a disability disclosure decision helper and script generator so that they can really customize creating that type of thing or like request for accommodations, especially even for interviews. Some of my clients really need them at that stage, and that's really hard. My hope is also to add more tools. Like I said before, that work right on the site without needing to go to AI. I'm also hoping to add more tools that assist with presets if I can. My goal is really just not to recreate the wheel, but to have the tools be like a one stop shop for a variety of stuff that actually make our jobs easier. I can envision there may be people who even stumble across the site who haven't heard of VR, and through using the tools or reading the blog, they may realize that they should apply for VR. So just thinking in terms of like, you know, the website also kind of can naturally act like a marketing tool for VR because, you know, a lot of people don't know about it. And just regarding partnerships. I mean, I'm definitely open to any potential collaborations, but at the moment, my goals really are just to keep the website as simple and fast as possible, because I don't want it to turn into a slow non-working, because that's not what we're trying to do here is make another non-responsive tool. And then number two, just to keep it as a free and public resource for as long as possible. Carol: That is amazing. I am really excited about what you have cooking, because all of those things you mentioned are much needed. I think people will really love this, and I'm hoping we can help expand the word so people come and see your very free website. I can't believe you did all this work. It would be so great. So do you have advice for like VR leaders? Because we have listeners that are supervisors, managers, directors. What guidance would you give VR leaders about embracing technology in a way that strengthens and doesn't replace the human side of this work? Stephanie: My guidance to VR leaders is to view technology as a way to buy back time for their staff, and to improve both the VR experience and outcomes for clients. We work in a field that's increasingly bogged down by documentation and data requirements, with systems that can take a lot of time to input that documentation and data. So when we embrace AI tools, even the simple little ones that I've built on my site, we're not trying to automate the counseling or rehabilitation process. We're not trying to take ourselves out of the process or out of the work. We're trying to remove the barriers that keep councilor's from helping their clients actually move forward. So my advice would be to lead with a human first technology second mindset. So as we always are anyway, keeping client confidentiality, transparency and the client preferences in mind. And by that I mean be a human and let clients know if and when you're using AI, explain to them how you're protecting their data when you do it, and don't use it if they request not to for their case, it's really no different. I don't think, than the informed choice and counseling methods that we're already using for other service provisions and processes, like, for example, when we refer someone for job coaching services or for a psychological evaluation, what do we do? We tell clients what the service is, why it's needed, how it can help us and them, how we will use the information that we get back and we provide informed choice about it. So using AI tools is ultimately the same concept in my mind. So if we just remain human focused, then we truly can use technology in a way that enhances and does not replace the human side of our work at all. Carol: Yeah, I love that. I love that so much. So what would be the best way for our listeners to kind of stay updated with you? How should folks like interact? Where should they go? Stephanie: Well, right now the best place is just right on the website. I don't have any newsletters or anything like that yet, so just right on the website which is www.VocRehabTools.com. I hope I got that right. Carol: Yes, that's awesome. And they can follow you  on LinkedIn too. Stephanie: I was going to say yeah, they can find me on LinkedIn. It's linkedin.com/in/5t3f/ that's a little code word for Steph if you look at it closely. Carol: Oh very cool. That is very cool. Stephanie: Yup, it's about the site there too. So I'm open to connect with anybody if they want to find me there. Carol: Well Stephanie, thanks so much for spending time with us. I really appreciate it. And I'm hoping we get the word out far and wide. I think you're on to something amazing and you've been doing a great job. And look at you're doing this all as you're like, side gig. Stephanie: Yeah. Carol: completely for free, I mean, everyone should come and look and go, oh my gosh. I think it's really incredible. Thanks a bunch. I hope you have a great day. Stephanie: Thank you so much for having me. {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

What happens when workforce innovation stops focusing on individuals alone—and starts supporting entire families? In this episode of Manager Minute, Carol Pankow sits down with Lucas Halverson and Kathy Davis of ServiceSource to explore Families Achieving Self-Sufficiency Together (FASST)—a Disability Innovation Fund initiative that's connecting VR, TANF, employers, and community partners in a powerful new way. You'll hear how FASST: ·       Tackles generational poverty through a family-centered employment model ·       Supports disconnected youth and adults with disabilities across multiple states ·       Complements VR services without duplicating them ·       Uses AI-powered job matching and strong employer partnerships ·       Creates real solutions during Order of Selection and funding constraints This conversation is a must-listen for VR leaders, program managers, and partners looking for scalable, practical models that expand impact without expanding cost.   Listen Here   Full Transcript:   {Music} Lucas: The big goal is to break the cycle of poverty. We want to create lasting self-sufficiency, reduce the need for benefits and things of that nature.   Kathy: The beauty of this project is that it was originally designed for six sites across multiple states.   Lucas: We don't intend as a program to supplant programs that already exist, but we do intend to supplement or fill the gaps that exist.   Kathy: We are one as part of this project, and you would not have to pay fee for service or contract us. We're already being paid through the grant.   Intro Voice: Manager Minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow.   Carol: Welcome to the manager minute. In today's episode, we're diving into one of the exciting initiatives funded through the Rehab Services Administration's Disability Innovation Fund 21st Century Workforce Grants. And these grants were designed to spark new ideas and scalable strategies that help youth and adults with disabilities prepare for and succeed in today's rapidly changing world of work. From artificial intelligence and virtual reality to cross-system partnerships and new ways of engaging employers. These projects are testing innovative models that could reshape how we think about disability employment for the 21st century. And one of those projects, launched just this past year, is led by ServiceSource, and it's taking a unique approach to helping families move toward self-sufficiency and employment. And joining me today to talk about it are Lucas Halverson, project director, and Kathy Davis, one of the key leaders behind this groundbreaking effort. So how goes it, Lucas?   Lucas: Hey, good morning Carol. Everything's going very well. Thank you so much for inviting us to talk about our project today. We're extremely excited to be here to talk about our project Families Achieving Self-sufficiency Together. We also call it fasst with two S's. So thanks again for having us.   Carol: You bet. How about you, Kathy? How are you doing?   Kathy: I'm doing great, Carol, thanks so much for having us. We are definitely excited to speak with you about our grant, which is short for that Disability Innovation Fund.   Carol: Excellent. Yeah, I've had a lot of experience talking with other DIF grantees in like the C.D.E.F. We always give them the little alphabet soup label, but there have been different focuses each year that RSA had released the Disability Innovation Fund grant. So it's been really fun to catch up and see what things are happening. So let's dig in. So before we get into the details of your project, Lucas, could you tell us a little bit about your background and how you came to be involved in this work?   Lucas: Yeah, absolutely. So my entire professional career is related to helping others. That started as an employment development specialist right after my bachelor's degree, focusing on all things employment placement, support services, community based, competitive, integrated employment. I transitioned from that into helping individuals with more significant disabilities prepare for employment. I've done a little bit of group and individual substance abuse counseling, but largely the last 15 years or so, I've been in the world of vocational rehabilitation in a variety of roles, both on the public side and the private sector side, and was happy through those wonderful years to get my master's degree in rehab counseling and my certified rehabilitation counselor credential. So to present day, I've been with ServiceSorce for over ten years, and when the grant was awarded, I looked at it as an opportunity to still stay in the world that I love of helping people, but knew it would expand my skills and really looked at it as an opportunity to bring a pretty large proposal to life. And so here we are, fresh into the second year of our project and seeing all of that happen. So very exciting.   Carol: It's very cool. I love finding people's stories, like how you found your way into this world of work, because we all came in a long and winding road different ways, but make it in. And then once you're in, you're kind of hooked. It's hard to leave. So, Kathy, how about you? How did you come to be involved in this work?   Kathy: Well, same. I love people's stories about how they find their vocation. And I have also been serving individuals with disabilities for a very long time, well over 20 years. I started as a volunteer in high school with Easter Seals, and from there, I did volunteer work with therapeutic horseback riding. I eventually also went back to school and got my master's in rehab counseling and became a nonprofit community mental health counselor and a traumatic brain injury program manager. And because of my background in counseling and also a previous master's degree in economics, when the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act was being discussed,  and the emphasis changed to or included employers. My econ background and my master's rehab counseling background made me a little bit of a unicorn, and I was hired by a Blind services agency around 2012. And then I also did business relations for them. And then I was hired to start the first business relations program at one of the VR agencies. And really, my golden thread throughout all of my career has been starting new programs. No matter what role I've been in. I love new things, I love innovation, and so DIF has been a perfect fit for me. I'm also working on my doctorate degree, almost finished with that and doing a Pre-ETS dissertation. So I have a really strong interest in evaluation. And so evaluation actually brought me to this project. And I serve as an internal evaluator for it.   Carol: Wow, you are a unicorn. Let me say that is exciting. Very fun. Thanks for sharing that. So when you two first saw the grant announcement, what caught your attention and made you want to apply?   Lucas: Yeah. So this DIF grant cycle the F grant cycle was the first time nonprofit organizations were eligible to apply. So it was a unique opportunity for ServiceSource. And so our program development team recognized that our agency had the capacity to try to take this on, and also the expertise to successfully apply with a strong proposal, but then also administer and monitor the program successfully. So our organization, ServiceSource, is a leading service provider and employer for individuals with disabilities. So it made us well positioned to deliver impactful outcomes under this project. The DIF grant in general definitely aligns very closely with our mission and our vision and our values. And we have affiliated organizational model that we felt would provide a strategic advantage with this project. So it's allowing us to have a fairly large geographic reach. We have several teams across the country all working together on this project, and it also allows us to leverage partnerships and resources that have already been in existence across these teams and these affiliates to have the greatest impact that we can. And so really, the alignment and the capacity gave us confidence that we could do what this grant needed us to do. And so we're in that second year and really getting rocking and rolling now.   Carol: Yeah, I hadn't realized that ServiceSource had such a big footprint because I was familiar with the work ServiceSource did in Florida, and Tina down in Florida and working with the Florida General Agency. In fact, we did a podcast about that and that particular model, and I knew there were little fingers of that kind of had spread out, I believe, into a few different states, but I hadn't realized, like, really how expansive ServiceSource was. So that is an excellent point that it really positioned you well for this. Now your project family is achieving self-sufficiency together. As you said FASST with the two S's. So no, we don't have a typo. If they read the transcript later, we didn't have a spelling error. It is the FASST you really launched at the end of June. I know that first year is always a very big planning year and getting things ready. Can you give us a quick overview of what the initiative is about, and really what motivated your focus on families?   Lucas: Yeah, absolutely. Really the high level focus aims to help disconnected youth and disconnected adults with disabilities achieve competitive, integrated employment. In addition, you know, using early intervention workforce reintegration strategies to support long term success. That's where the whole self-sufficiency piece comes in, uniquely for our project. But overall, FASST is, as I mentioned, a multi-state initiative, and we want to empower disconnected adults and youth with disabilities. Our core focus is individuals that are eligible for Temporary Assistance for Needy Families or TANF. So that's part of our eligibility requirement. And the ultimate focus is to remove barriers to employment and to independence. And so we do that by connecting families to community partners such as vocational rehabilitation, training providers, employers. But we also have staff that assist the individuals we're serving, build those critical skills such as job readiness, financial capability. And we have a case manager component to the team. Each team has a case manager to help with that kind of wraparound, holistic approach, to try to knock down as many barriers as possible. The big goal is to break the cycle of poverty, looking at kind of that two generational approach. We want to create lasting self-sufficiency, reduce the need for benefits and things of that nature. So pretty big goals. But we have a solid team that I'm confident can hit those goals with us.   Kathy: So and related to goals, we really our project has three overall goals. And as Lucas mentioned, it is to connect disconnected adults to find and retain that competitive integrated employment. But I'll also add that we want to have at least one high quality indicator as part of that employment, and we're helping to support them to retain their employment for at least 90 days. But we're also tracking beyond 90 days. And that's one of the really exciting and fun parts of this project. Unlike vocational rehabilitation, where you'd see a closure at 90 days, we're able to support individuals for the remainder of the project if that's what it takes to help them maintain their employment. The second overarching goal that we have is for the youth, disconnected youth ages 14 to 24. Our goal is to help them gain work skills and then either enter employment or enter education and or complete education. And then finally, the third goal would be to build the system's capacity with all of our partners to sustain our model and be able to serve more TANF recipients.   Carol: I like your holistic approach that you guys have brought up. I know back in the day, as customers would come in the door, and I was working at State Services for the Blind in Minnesota. You're looking at employment, but it's hard to just talk employment right off the get go. If people don't have food or your housing is unstable or you have all the other issues, so you've got to kind of connect all the pieces together. Employment obviously is a very important piece of this, but it isn't the only piece. You got to have it all work together.   Lucas: You make a great point, because I realized I didn't touch on the motivation to focus on families as part of this, and it's largely what you just described. You know, we recognize that families are key support systems for the individuals that we're serving. Families strongly influence decisions about anything but including employment and training, career paths. And so our whole focus is trying to have an alignment to that. And again, with our case management, part of our staffing, looking at the barriers, making sure they're addressed to increase those chances of success, because just as you said, there's not transportation, there's not a job. If there's not a house over your head, there's not a job if you don't have food. So all caregiver responsibilities and so the family tie in is really looking at barriers that affect the family. So could be the parent could be a child. But we know how it impacts the household. It creates kind of that ripple effect. And so not addressing it holistically could be a key piece missing. And so kind of the core motivation I guess to capitalize on that is to increase skills, of course, relating to employment, but also to again try to reduce the reliance on benefits as part of that. So knocking down barriers, helping go to work, reducing that need. And one of the key points with our project is as things are evolving, it does align with some of the current different federal agency initiatives. So, for example, children and families is emphasizing employment as a pathway to self-sufficiency. So that's very close to what we're looking at. And another example is Health and Human Services. They're looking at employment and family as the foundation of economic and social well-being. So our project really kind of just fits and plugs into that, because that is what our goal is with the larger focus. But I do think the holistic piece is extremely valuable for this project and will continue to be.   Carol: Yeah, you guys are definitely ahead of the curve because when I saw that that you guys had picked TANF, you know, at first I'm like, well that's interesting. Like how did you come to that? You know, to decide you were going to focus on those folks eligible for TANF and kind of make that the centerpiece?   Lucas: Yeah. So the program development folks that really dug into the proposal, part of the application process did a lot of research and found that largely there was a disconnect. There are a lot of folks that are eligible for TANF or receiving TANF that were appropriate for other agencies, such as vocational rehab, just as one example. But the tie in often wasn't there. It wasn't happening. And so, as Kathy mentioned, one of our goals is to hopefully have some better pipelines for that. So for folks and entities that are naturally working with individuals with TANF to understanding no important programs such as vocational rehab exist and what that looks like and what the scope is and what they can help with. So it just kind of was a noticed need and kind of became one of the key parts of, of this proposal when it was getting all put together.   Carol: I think that's brilliant because you always look at kind of VR can be the best kept secret. People say that all the time, and even though it seems like it would be apparent, like, why wouldn't you, you know, get connected with VR and you're in this program. People don't know that. And it's not necessary that the staff may be working in TANF, even know about VR or what's going on. We don't always do the best job at connecting with all the different partners and other folk out there.   Lucas: Another part of that decision to again, ServiceSource operating many programs across the country. There are a couple TANF specific programs that ServiceSource operated for many years, one being in Virginia that partners with the Virginia Department of Social Services, and then another unrelated program in Denver in Colorado. So there's already some knowledge base of that in addition to the research they all did. So it helped us kind of align with one of our corporate strategic goals of expansion and wanting to increase our support to individuals that are eligible for TANF. And so it kind of checked a, checked a lot of mini boxes, both there being a need and interest from our company with our goal of expanding and serving, you know, additional individuals. So it kind of presented just almost a natural opportunity, I guess, as it was all coming together. And I think it gives, you know, a pretty solid opportunity to try to interrupt the generational poverty that exists within families.   Carol: Well, that's where the magic happens. There's nothing better than having a project that fits with your own corporate mission. You know, the stars are aligned, things all sync up. It's not like you're having to kind of fit round, peg in a square hole or whatever, the square peg in a round hole, because it's all aligned really well. Now, I understand you recently received approval to expand your focus to include disconnected youth such as those in foster care, the justice system. How does that change the picture of your work going forward?   Lucas: Yeah, so kind of a really cool example. So with the DIF grants, one of the key focuses on being innovative and being flexible in changing with what you're finding during your project. And so very early on, not long after we launched the project and began some large increased efforts with outreach almost immediately, there were a handful of situations that involve youth that met the larger definition of disconnected, but didn't quite meet our project eligibility of being in a household that had a parent or guardian eligible for TANF benefits. And so we originally had intended to focus on those youth later in the project. But we talked about it and we did not want to exclude individuals. We knew we had the expertise and interest to serve, and we certainly did not want to risk coming back in the months or years ahead trying to find them. You know, it's kind of like the hot potato. If you have youth that are interested, now is the time. And so we worked with our project officer from RSA and they were very supportive of us expanding our focus to the broader definition of disconnected youth a little bit sooner than we originally planned, of course, but so that expansion includes youth now that are in foster care, the justice system that are low income or don't have stable housing. And so they don't have to have that TANF tie in for, for that kind of subgroup, but still relates very directly to our mission of serving the disconnected youth and adults within the project.   Carol: Yeah, I like that. You recognize that, you know, and take advantage of that as you're seeing that. And that's kind of the beauty of these projects, because they do ebb and flow based on how things are rolling and what you write in a proposal. As everything comes to fruition, you realize different things and you're like, oh, you know, maybe we get to pivot or do something a little differently or whatever that may be, or make this addition and it just makes the project better. I love the flexibility that RSA has with the projects to allow that kind of expansion and changes as you're going along. So I understand you've got six teams working across six states under this shared framework. How does that structure work, and what have you learned so far about coordinating across all these different regions?   Lucas: Yeah, I'm proud and very happy to report that it's been working incredibly well so far. It's kind of a new experience for our organization as well because it's bringing together multiple affiliated teams, but working collectively on the same project at the same time with shared goals. So from the start, when Kathy and I were putting this all together, one of the elements that really wasn't negotiable was building a sense of community within our team. Since we're all working on the same grant, have the same expectations. We knew if everybody was working in their own silo, it would be, you know, highly unnecessary and really counterproductive to what we're wanting to do. So we spent a lot of time in the earlier stages and continue to with emphasizing cross team collaboration. It's really kind of the key driver to our success and our continued success. And so some of the efforts to make this team that's spread across the country feel like we're all sitting in the same office space together, is having weekly meetings. So Kathy and I lead a weekly meeting with all the grant funded staff, their supervisors, the executive directors for the different affiliates, other subject matter experts from our organization, and then different contractors as necessary that are on the project. And we focus on anything and everything relating to the project, so it could be updates, progress, best practices, things that seem to be going well, maybe things that we need to work a little better on any process reviews we need to do. So we go through just anything that's relevant each week, keeps that engagement there, keeps everybody, you know, interacting. And beyond that, we also knew that with having some external contractors on the project that we really needed that to be bought in from the staff as well. And so we had kick off meetings with each contractor, both with our large group and then with each individual team, really just to build rapport, clarify roles, responsibilities, expectations, how it was going to work, what the goals were, and just start those relationships strong as well. You know, there's so much going on when you launch a project that we didn't want our external folks not to feel a partner like our internal folks. And so that's been going remarkably well. And then lastly, the last comment I'll make on this is that we also recognize that because we have really three position types that are working directly with the individuals we're serving, again, spread out across the country. We really wanted them to feel together and not, again, not separate. And so each position has its own community of practice. They meet monthly, they share best practices. They discuss challenges, Brainstorm ideas. For example, case manager in Florida found a gem of a resource that's national. There's no reason our case manager in Utah should have to spend time finding that as well. They talk about it. They you know, hey, I found this. This is great. It might help each other. And so those meetings we've had a lot of positive response on and Kathy and I hop on, if they have a topic they want us to discuss or, you know, problem solve with them. And so we've really felt that's helped bridge that large geographic distance across the teams. And we're hoping that, you know, turns into high quality and impactful services for the folks we're serving efficiently, serving our individuals and not having multiple people having to spend the same time on the same need.   Kathy: Yeah, I'll add something here, too, from an evaluation perspective. You might be familiar that when you start a new program and it develops into a fully developed, successful project and program, and then you start sharing it nationally. Inevitably, someone will, from another state or another agency outside of your region will say, well, that could never work for us because we're, you know, we have these resources or we're serving this population. The beauty of this project is that it was originally designed for six sites across multiple states. And so our implementation really is across varying populations and community resources. And so this project has such strong potential for successful implementation across multiple states and contexts. So we're very excited that we're really documenting everything that we're doing. We'll have a toolkit when we complete the project, and we're really looking forward to sharing what we're doing and how to do it with others.   Carol: And that's a really important piece to RSA. It's one of the things you write to in the project, like how is this going to be sustained past the project ending? Like how can you then, you know, transfer this information to other folks and they can implement it. So I can see where that was very appealing to them as they're looking at evaluating the different proposals that shoot. Here's a group looking at six states. So you mentioned, Lucas, Utah and Florida. What are the other four states that you're in?   Lucas: Yeah. So we're  in Delaware, North Carolina and Virginia. And we're right now in the process of bringing on a team in Colorado. We have the approval. We're just doing the logistics of what it takes to bring them on. That's one of the ServiceSource teams that has an experienced TANF program. And so we looked at that as another opportunity to be able to already leverage existing relationships and expertise to just tie right into what we were already planning to do in the Colorado team was just a little bit newer to ServiceSource, so they weren't part of the original proposal because they weren't here quite yet, but they now are. So we're extremely excited to have some additional folks joining the team and fitting right into what we're doing.   Carol: That's very cool. I know one of your partners. Our Ability, brings some cutting edge tech into the mix with AI powered job matching and training. How is that partnership helping you engage employers and job seekers in new ways?   Lucas: Yeah, so I think as we all know, the workforce development is just kind of an ever evolving landscape. So bringing Our Ability in, I'm extremely excited. John Robinson, the CEO from Our Ability, is part of our project. And at the core of our partnership is the innovative use of technology. They have a portal that's called Jobs Ability, that uses generative AI to connect job seekers to employment based on their interests, their skills, their expertise. So the system helps focus on the challenge of both unemployment but also underemployment among folks with disabilities. And their platform reaches 15,000 people with disabilities each month, which to me is pretty remarkable. That's a lot of folks consistently visiting and using their resources. And so the job matching will assist with better connections between the individuals were serving and getting into the work world, or trying to help upgrade or increase their employment in a system that's already proven, which, you know, helps with efficiency. They already know it works. And so by us leveraging their extensive employer network within the system, you know, we're really focused on fostering the employment opportunities that encourage and again, increase self-sufficiency.   Kathy: Just kind of expanding on what the Jobs Ability portal will mean for our customers. We'll be able to assist our job seekers with creating quality resumes that are keyed in on skills and experience, and there is an AI matching protocol that really matches their preferences and experiences and skills with job descriptions. It's a proprietary AI system, and so we're really excited about how participants are going to be able to be matched with jobs that actually match their skills. These are real jobs, competitive wages. As we said, we have high quality indicators for our outcomes, including wages. And if you think about it, this is a win for our participants as well as our employers, because they are going to be able to actually tap into qualified individuals with disabilities who meet the skills and experience that they are seeking.   Carol: I love AI. I know there's people I've done different podcasts around, different AI initiatives, and some people have different feelings about AI. I know there's kind of the you have the dark side of it, but this sounds super cool. I had not heard of this company. And about this proprietary software. I think that's very interesting and super smart of you to leverage something already out there, proven tested, can be used right away. Instead of you trying to like, go down the road of creating something and doing all of that, you don't need to waste, you know, time and energy in that when you've got something already done. Now, I know no large project like this starts without a few hurdles. What have been some of your biggest challenges so far, and how are you navigating maybe any kind of overlap with other services or agencies?   Kathy: As you said, VR is a well-kept secret. Many times that's what we hear. And so being experienced with that, when we started the project, we knew the outreach was going to be key. And so we did not wait to start our outreach. And Lucas and I developed a very thorough support system and toolkit for our staff to help them really be purposeful about their outreach. And as soon as people were hired, one of the first things they were told to do after they were up and running with knowledge about the project was to start outreach. And honestly, I think we've become an outreach machine and we're really keeping track of hundreds, hundreds of contacts across our six locations that we've made and also just really analyzing which of those resources are turning into pipelines of referrals. And so I think we're going to be learning a lot about that. One of the things that we also knew from the beginning is that we needed to tailor our outreach to the audience. So we have a library of outreach materials for students, for VR, for employers, for schools and parents. So there's many ways that we have. We also are created outreach in other languages. So we're definitely doing our best to reach as many people as we can about this project, and also equipping our staff to be able to speak about it, to really understand it and to be able to keep track of what we're doing to reach the populations that and stakeholders that we're going to serve.   Carol: Very cool.   Lucas: I was going to talk about the overlap with other agencies. It's been a very real discussion with our teams because, you know, how does FASST fit in with other programs that might do similar types of work. And so, you know, it's an ongoing discussion, teaching staff the significance of a comparable benefit, a very familiar term for our friends that have been in the VR world before. We don't intend as a program to supplant programs that already exist, but we do intend to supplement or fill the gaps that exist. Maybe we can move faster within a process to help somebody now that while they'll go through a process that takes a little bit longer, or maybe we can support someone a little bit longer, like Kathy said before, you know, if someone has a VR counselor and at 90 days, VR is comfortable with closing them, but maybe they might need a little bit more support. That might be a gap we can fill or a little bit more job coaching or financial literacy or something like that. And so we really focused on the design of our project to try to rapidly engage individuals as much as we can. We can serve someone start to finish on our own as a project. We don't have to have a built in external component, but we recognize the significance of resource connection, obviously. So both now and down the road for folks, if they're not receiving our support, knowing what resources exist, who can help with different things. And so it's still an ongoing process. So part of that outreach, Kathy mentioned hundreds and hundreds of outreach. We have to hit folks with the right info that makes sense to them. And so for as long as this project's going, I think it will always be a focal point for us to make sure that, you know, it's just clear what we do and what we don't do and what we can do to just try to support agencies and programs that do exist already, but then also knowing we can do a pretty good job on our own if we had to, so.   Carol: So let's hone in a little bit. You've talked a lot about outreach and have mentioned VR, but let's talk about those VR partnerships. How are your teams building relationships at the state and local level, and what can VR agencies gain from working with your project?   Lucas: Yeah, so the teams have done a really good job focusing on building relationships with vocational rehab. Again, trying to listen to what the needs are, what they're seeing as needs, and then versus, you know, collaboration of what we can offer teams that are working on having regular check ins set up. As with any agency, you know, some relationships have been a little more natural than others. But continuing to work together to try to establish those pipelines and that knowledge base of our existence, and then also that need for the individuals that are eligible for TANF. And so I always kind of say, you know, what's in it for VR agencies? And from my perspective, at least, our project can increase access to services and resources that could make service delivery easier or more efficient or more effective, which should then lead to increase or better outcomes. That's the goal. One of our objectives, as Kathy touched on, is to establish a system that connects. Connects the folks eligible for TANF and other entities such as vocational rehab. And so we're really continuing to focus on that and going to continue to ramp that up throughout the project. As the more, you know, line level relationships exist with the different offices and the different staff. And we've learned that adults with disabilities receiving TANF benefits are often best served by VR. As I mentioned, you know, programs can be complex sometimes, and so trying to smooth that out a little bit might be helpful for them. So we kind of see an additional potential to have connect VR teams with employers. We just talked about our ability and John and his team. They have very robust employer connections across the country. And so that'll be a regular interaction. So we might be able to connect some employers. Some of our interest is connecting educational partners as well. So looking at programs that can help foster people to get into good jobs and, you know, and other stakeholders of course, as well. So we kind of see it as a very big collaboration opportunity for our teams. And I really think at the end of the day, it really just to me looks at shared impact. So we work together. How can we all show that the good work everybody's doing is impactful and supporting the individuals that are coming to us that are needing that support?   Carol: It takes a village. It really does.   Lucas: It does. It takes a village. And we have one team, the state they're in recently. Just last month went on order of selection. And so we're using that as another opportunity to be a support because at least I know us in this podcast know when going on Order of Selection, the most significant disabilities have to be focused first. And so those individuals with less significant disabilities are typically the ones that have to wait. And we can serve them. So that team is working with their VR agency to make sure that's known, so that if they have folks going on the waiting list, that it might be a great opportunity to shift them to us and we can support them while they're on the waiting list. And whenever the time would come for that release, we can just catch up together and see where we're at.   Carol: That's a perfect example of really great collaboration, I love that. That I'm glad you mentioned that.   Kathy: Yeah, I just want to mention too, it's kind of tied into that. The reason we're seeing agencies start to use Order of Selection is because of increasing costs. This project would not cost BR to use our services because we're funded through the grant. So if you need an employment service provider, we are one as part of this project and you would not have to pay fee for service or contract us. We're already being paid through the grant, so it really helps with cost.   Carol: Yeah that's perfect. So as you guys look at the year ahead, what are your priorities and what does success look like for FASST as you continue to grow and refine your model?   Lucas: Many things, but I think largely continuing to strengthen the project. You know, we're still relatively new in implementation. And so we've learned a lot and will continue to learn a lot. And so we just really want to make sure we're maximizing the positive impact of the individuals we're serving. First of all, strengthen develop clear pathways. The end goal would be for this to be replicable at the end to scale our model effectively. And so I really think this second year, now that the team's together, everybody's getting comfortable with our process. This year is really where the car starts driving full speed, is how I feel. And I know Kathy, you have some ideas on quality and partnerships too, right?   Kathy: Definitely. As an internal evaluator, I'm looking at quality of this project. I want to make sure that we're ensuring fidelity to our model and the key components of our model and project, and we're going to be making adjustments throughout the next year, especially based on the needs of our participants and even our staff. And we're going to be capitalizing on our successes and sharing best practices across our teams through those communities of practice that Lucas talked about. We want to be consistent in implementing our project across the teams and our locations. So again, we have process documents and we're making sure that we're doing things similarly across our locations. And then we're definitely going to be collecting data. We've already started that process, and we want to make sure that we can demonstrate our outcomes so that we can inform our improvements and just really develop that replicable model in the end. And then as far as collaborations and partnerships go, we're working with our local partners to strengthen our connections and expand resources for our disconnected youth and adults with disabilities. So really looking forward to the next year being strengthening of our program and proving our model.   Carol: Well spoken like a true evaluator indeed, I love that. Oh, that is good stuff. So how could our listeners learn more about your work or connect with the FASST team? Do you have a website or something you could share with us.   Lucas: Yeah, so there's a few ways. So if someone's wanting to get connected to Kathy and I quick, we have an email. It's FASST, which is [email protected]. Comes directly to Kathy and I, and we can answer questions if it's specific to a team, a referral, something like that. We get it out to the appropriate folks across the different teams. We do have a website. There's a lot of hyphens in it, but so largely it's ServiceSource.org/families-achieving-sufficiency-together. The hyphens had to be in there. So it's a little much if someone's trying to write it down. So I don't know if there's a way to have that posted somehow.   Carol: Yeah, we'll definitely put that in when we post the podcast. We can put that in the transcript too, to have the website linked right there.   Lucas: And then, also always like to put a plug in for the National Clearinghouse of Rehabilitation Training Materials, or NCRTM. They have a website for all DIF grantees that provides information about the project so you can see any of the grant cycles, what they're doing, where they're located, and of course, ours being one of them. So it has information and also ties folks back to our project site as well.   Carol: Well, Heather Servais will sure appreciate that shout out to them. They have great stuff. I sure appreciate you both very much. This is interesting. It'll be fun to catch up with you in a year or so and see, like now that you said you're kind of going full speed ahead to see where things land, I appreciate you.   Kathy: Thank you.   Lucas: Thank you so much.   {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.   Lucas: The contents of this discussion were developed under Grant H421F240144 from the US Department of Education Department. The Department does not mandate or prescribe practices, models or other activities described or discussed in this discussion. The contents of this discussion may contain examples of adaptations of, and links to, resources created and maintained by another public or private organization. The. The department does not control or guarantee the accuracy, relevance, timeliness or completeness of this outside information. The content of this discussion does not necessarily represent the policy of the department. This publication is not intended to represent the views or policy, or be an endorsement of any views expressed or materials provided by any federal agency. Edgar. 75.620.   Carol: Well, thank you both. I really appreciate you. Good job.   Kathy: Thanks Carol.   Lucas: Thank you so much.   Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.