Leading Notes Podcast

Today’s world asks leaders to keep moving fast, yet good leadership needs room to stop and think. In this episode, Melissa speaks with Lauren Carnegie, Leadership Portfolio Director at the Committee for Geelong and Vice President of the community orchestra Awkwardstra, about leading at the intersection of systems thinking and human-centred practice. Lauren explains why leaders need to see themselves as part of the system they want to change, and why the most useful question is often “how might my behaviour be contributing?” rather than “what does that person need to do differently?” She describes three levels of awareness: self-awareness, deep listening, and systems awareness. She also talks about “composting” (deciding what to let go of) and why calling timeout may be one of the most important things a leader can do right now. At Awkwardstra, Lauren shows how these ideas work in a community orchestra. She talks about values that came from the members rather than the committee, how something as simple as choosing repertoire can affect whether a player walks in the door, and the tension between what funders ask for and what members value on a Monday night. She finishes with a story about being terrified, and then exhilarated, while learning to improvise on groove cello. Key Topics Discussed Reconnecting to what really matters, and moving from “what do you want to be?” to “who do you want to be?” Combining systems-level thinking with human-centred leadership Why “the system” isn’t something out there: we are the system Collective intelligence, emergence, and finding the way forward together The pace of modern work, and the case for calling timeout “Composting”: what we stop doing so there’s room for new things Moving away from locating problems in individuals The gap between intention and impact Three levels of awareness: self-awareness, deep listening, and systems awareness The emotional side of working with complexity, including agency and accepting partial understanding Investing in community leaders as an investment in community resilience Building a welcoming culture for adult musicians returning to their instruments Values that emerge from members and change as the organisation grows How every decision in a community music group has ripple effects Grant funding, mission drift, and valuing process over performance Learning to trust yourself through improvisation and groove cello Notable Quotes “We also need to remember that we are the system, and that systems change involves something that’s within us and outside of us.”  “The even harder question to ask is, how might my behaviour be contributing to that situation?”  “We’ve become really good at responding to that context, but kind of less good at stopping long enough to actually decide whether we’re responding to the right things.” “Community leaders are often the ones that spot what’s missing. And they hold invisible threads of connection in a community.”  “It’s really easy to just assume that the way we see something is the reality, where in actual fact, it’s really just our story of the reality.”  “What are we seeing in this community already? And what are people noticing? How do we name that? And then once you name it, you keep becoming it.”  Resources Mentioned Committee for Geelong Awkwardstra community orchestra, Geelong Groove Cello Academy and teacher Daniel Zellaney  The window of tolerance “Dance the Night” from the Barbie movie “The Swan” (Saint-Saëns) About Guest Lauren Carnegie is the Leadership Portfolio Director at the Committee for Geelong, a nonpartisan voice for Geelong’s long-term future. She leads the Leaders for Geelong program, one of ten community leadership programs across Victoria that develop the next generation of regional leaders. Through her business, Learn and Lead, Lauren helps leaders and organisations reconnect with their purpose, their people, and the communities they serve. She also helps them handle complexity and design ways of working that are sustainable, human, and focused on the future. Lauren is Vice President of Awkwardstra, a community orchestra in Geelong. She is a classically trained cellist and has recently started playing groove cello. Connect with Guest LinkedIn

In this episode, Fiona joins Melissa to unpack why so many adults quietly believe they "can't sing", and what gets lost when we stop. They trace the individual, cultural, economic and technological forces that pushed singing out of everyday life, explore the idea of voice shame, and talk about why Fiona prefers to run singing circles rather than choirs. The conversation moves through the concept of singing as a "homecoming," the case for calling singing facilitators leaders, and practical ways to bring singing back into unexpected places—meetings, workplaces, aged care, and the school run. Key Topics Discussed Why singing dropped out of daily life: recorded music, smaller households, declining church attendance and hyper-individualism Voice shame – how childhood criticism becomes a lifelong story about not being a "singer" The difference between a choir and a singing circle, and why inclusion matters more than perfection Singing as a "homecoming": reconnecting with a shared, primal human experience Why talking is an inefficient tool for connection compared with singing together Reframing "singing facilitator" as "singing leader," and the case for singing as a leadership behaviour Practical ways to normalise singing: bringing it into workplaces, meetings, aged care and early childhood settings The link between group singing and perinatal mental health Notable Quotes "We therefore neglect singing at our peril." – Fiona Maria "Sing first, then talk, not the other way around." – Fiona Maria Resources Mentioned All Children Sing Until They're Told Not To by Fiona Maria The Language of Leadership by Simon Lancaster (mentioned by Melissa) About Guest Fiona Maria is a singing facilitator, performer and author who lives and works on Gadigal land in Sydney, Australia. Through years of running singing circles in community and corporate settings, she became fascinated by why we've grown so uneasy about singing, and what it costs us individually and collectively to lose touch with it. Her debut book, All Children Sing Until They're Told Not To, explores the barriers—personal, cultural and economic—that stop people from thinking of themselves as singers, and makes the case for bringing singing back into everyday life. Connect with Guest Fiona's website Episode Highlights [00:00] Introducing Fiona Maria and her book [00:57] When and why we got "weird" about singing [02:26] The technological shift from home piano sing-alongs to recorded music [07:08] Voice shame and the vicious cycle of hesitancy [11:02] Singing circles vs choirs, and why the experience is the focus [13:36] Singing as a "homecoming" [19:23] Fiona's facilitation style: inclusion over perfection, safety as paramount [22:09] Reframing "facilitator" as "leader" [26:13] How to bring singing back into everyday contexts [31:07] Group singing and perinatal mental health [34:42] The magic wand question and a closing thought on connection

Melissa speaks with Enya Cai, General Manager of Creativity Australia, the national charity behind the With One Voice choir network. With 26 choirs across Australia and a mission to end loneliness through group singing, Creativity Australia sits at a fascinating intersection of community music, social inclusion, and organisational leadership. Enya brings a rare perspective: a childhood spent in the Australian Girls Choir, a career spanning accounting, diversity and inclusion, government policy, and arts management, and a longstanding connection to Creativity Australia that began when she was a teenager volunteering with the organisation. In this conversation, she reflects on what community choir facilitators have in common with corporate leaders, how loneliness really shows up in the people who walk through choir doors, and why patience might be the most underrated skill in both music and life. Key Topics Discussed The With One Voice model: all-inclusive, all-abilities choirs focused on connection over musical perfection The skills that transfer between corporate leadership and choir facilitation How Enya uses vocal warm-ups and arts-based activities in corporate leadership training Why "human-centred" leadership faces pushback, and what's underneath that resistance How loneliness manifests in choir participants—and why most wouldn't identify as lonely The slow, patient process of belonging: how the choir model meets people where they are The realities and complications of choir facilitation as work, including emotional wellbeing and financial sustainability Notable Quotes "The point of our choirs is not to be perfect in a musical way—it's to create connections and community wellbeing through what we know is a proven way of creating beautiful, meaningful, strong connections, and that is through singing together." "The skills required to lead in a corporate setting are just as useful, and in some cases essential, and already displayed in community music settings." "Loneliness can be voices in your head that tell you that no one wants to speak to you. Part of our work is to recognise those people and welcome them in." "Patience is one of the keys to my sustainability in this sector, but also one of the biggest lessons we can continue to learn through community music." "With one wave of my magic wand, I would like for our society to value music makers—and for them to be recognised and paid appropriately for that." Resources Mentioned With One Voice choirs — find a choir near you or enquire about facilitator training About Enya Cai Enya Cai is the General Manager of Creativity Australia, the national charity behind the With One Voice choir network—26 all-inclusive, all-abilities choirs across Australia with a mission to end loneliness through group singing. Her connection to the organisation goes back to her teenage years, when she first volunteered with the then-fledgling choir program. Since then, Enya has built a career that spans public policy in the Victorian government, diversity and inclusion at EY, freelance arts management, theatre producing, and leadership coaching for corporate clients. She holds a Bachelor of Commerce and Graduate Diploma of Chartered Accounting, and brings that financial and strategic acumen to the arts sector with genuine purpose. Outside of work, she loves discovering new restaurants and spending time with her cat, Jelly. Connect with Enya Cai Creativity Australia: creativityaustralia.org.au With One Voice choirs: withonevoice.org.au LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/enyacai/ Episode Highlights 00:01:13 — What Creativity Australia does and the With One Voice mission to end loneliness 02:53 — Enya's journey: from the Australian Girls Choir to accounting, diversity and inclusion, government, and back to the arts 07:35 — The shared skills of corporate leaders and choir facilitators 09:47 — Pushback on human-centred leadership, and what's really behind the resistance 11:31 — How Enya starts leadership training: self-reflection first 13:33 — Using vocal warm-ups and arts-based play in corporate training sessions 16:24 — Why workplaces feel so constraining—physically and spiritually 19:13 — Singing groups as workplaces: navigating the real complexities of facilitation 19:39 — How loneliness actually shows up in choir participants 22:19 — A story of slow, patient transformation: from sitting at the back of the room to performing on stage 26:02 — How to join a With One Voice choir or train as a facilitator

For Graham Sattler, being a musical inclusion advocate means building a life's work around a single conviction: that music is the activity with the fewest impediments to participation. In this episode, Melissa talks with Graham about the journey that took him from the opera stage and the orchestral trombone section to the heart of community music practice, and the moment in Orange, New South Wales, that crystallised everything. Graham shares what he found when his Churchill Fellowship took him across eight countries investigating best-practice community music leadership training, and why the musicians he met were so strikingly clear about the why, how, and what of their work. He reflects on confidence, courage, and intrinsic motivation as essential leadership qualities; on generosity, compassion, and selflessness as the values that underpin effective practice; and on what happens to a community when leadership changes and those qualities disappear. The conversation also turns to orchestras — Graham is currently CEO of the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra — and what it takes for professional performance organisations to engage authentically with community, rather than as a funding exercise. Honest, thoughtful, and full of hard-won insight, this is a conversation about what it really means to lead music that matters. Key Topics Discussed What "musical inclusion advocate" means and where that framing came from Music as the most accessible participatory activity — and how to respond when that idea is challenged The move from Sydney to Orange, NSW, and the moment community music came into sharp focus The training gap in community music leadership across Australia and the Asia-Pacific What Graham observed in leadership training programs across the US, Canada, Ireland, Scotland, England, Norway, Portugal, and Armenia Confidence, courage, and intrinsic motivation as pillars of effective community music leadership The values common to the best community music leaders: generosity, compassion, and selflessness What happens to a community when leadership changes — and why training matters Professional orchestras and community engagement: honest assessment of where the sector is and where it falls short Community music as 60% of the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra's organisational output Notable Quotes "Music is the most accessible group activity that human beings can engage in — it has the fewest impediments to participation." "Whatever they bring into the room is enough. Human beings are profoundly and intrinsically musical, and music is, similarly, profoundly human." "I discovered what it was to be answerable to, responsible to, identifiable community — and that's when it really crystallised." "I hadn't teased courage out of confidence before — but they are quite different things." "When those qualities aren't there, people notice. People aren't stupid. They can spot a phony." About Graham Sattler Graham Sattler is an Australian musician, educator, and orchestra CEO whose career has taken him from the opera stage to the conductor's podium to the heart of community music practice. He has worked as a trombonist and singer with the Australian Opera, as a conductor of orchestras and choirs across Australia and internationally, and spent over a decade as director of regional conservatoriums in New South Wales — leading music programs with aged, disability, and at-risk youth communities. He holds a PhD in Music Education, a Master of Performance (Conducting), and a Graduate Certificate in the Psychology of Risk. In 2019, Graham was awarded a Churchill Fellowship to investigate best-practice community music leadership training programs across eight countries. He is currently CEO of the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra in Aotearoa New Zealand, where community engagement makes up 60% of the organisation's output. Connect with Graham LinkedIn Christchurch Symphony Orchestra Episode Highlights 00:01:27 — What "musical inclusion advocate" means, and how Graham arrived at that description 00:03:55 — Responding to the challenge: is music really the most accessible activity? 00:05:31 — Why the word "made" is the alarm bell for everything community music stands against 00:08:14 — The move to Orange, NSW, and the moment inclusion became central 00:13:25 — Why the leadership training gap matters — and what's lost when leadership changes 00:16:24 — What confidence actually looks like in community music leadership 00:21:19 — Confidence versus courage: two different things 00:23:09 — Whatever they bring into the room is enough 00:30:18 — The common values of effective community music leaders: generosity, compassion, selflessness 00:33:04 — Orchestras and community: an honest assessment 00:40:08 — The three closing questions: human connection, one song to unite a room, and a magic wand

Joel Carnegie—conductor, broadcaster, and storyteller—talks about Awkwardstra Geelong, a community orchestra that is quietly doing some of the most important social work in the business. Joel shares how he came to Awkwardstra after a demanding period in his professional life, and why the experience fundamentally changed how he thinks about music and leadership. This episode is a masterclass in what inclusive, values-driven music-making can look like in practice. Joel also reflects on his background as a storyteller and how narrative — including the music itself — can convey the value of community music in ways statistics simply can't. Drawing on his training in acting methods and voice work, he offers a thoughtful account of what it means to lead from the podium with empathy, clarity, and a willingness to sit with uncertainty. This conversation is full of practical wisdom and genuine inspiration. Key Topics Discussed The origins of Awkwardstra Geelong and Joel's path to becoming its conductor What radical inclusivity looks like in a community orchestra and the practical structures that support it Managing a wide range of skill levels and experience: music selection, coaching programs, and section support The "Awky Pass" and how the collective supports individual members facing financial barriers The tension between musical quality and inclusivity and why it can be a generative rather than a destructive tension The role of story in making the case for community music, including a commissioned piece built from players' own stories How acting training and voice work inform Joel's practice as a conductor and ensemble leader Empathy, clarity, and openness as core qualities in music leadership What music leadership has to offer organisational leadership more broadly Advice for young musicians interested in community music Notable Quotes "Making music for the joy of it, for creating connections across the community, and for offering people an opportunity to extend themselves — that's really what we're doing here." "The podium never lies. There's no one else you can really be except yourself up there." "We start every rehearsal by recognising that we've all had whatever happened during the day, and we take a moment to arrive into the space — intentionally — and remember that we're in physical bodies playing instruments that are physical." "Music allows us to feel. And when we can feel, we can connect with other people. We're in the business of feeling-making and moment-making." "People getting together and playing music is eternal. And those who are providing the structure for that to happen are creating guardrails and forms of resilience and resistance." "Just because it's not happening in Sydney or Melbourne doesn't mean it is not of value." Resources Mentioned Awkwardstra Geelong — community orchestra based in Geelong, VIC Kym Dillon — composer, pianist, and arranger who created a piece for Awkwardstra based on players' stories; performing with the orchestra again at the Geelong Arts Centre, 17 October 2026 Pako Festa (Pakington Street Festival) — Geelong's largest street festival; Awkwardstra performed as a flash mob opening act Ingrid Martin — Joel's conducting coach ABC Classic Evenings — national radio program hosted by Joel Carnegie About Guest Joel Carnegie is a conductor, performer, and storyteller whose work spans live music, broadcasting, and community engagement. Each weeknight he hosts the national Evenings program on ABC Classic, and his storytelling work has earned recognition at the New York Festivals International Radio Awards and The Whickers, a prestigious international award for audio storytelling. From 2015 to 2024, Joel was Founder and Head of Storytelling at The Space Company, where he led the creation of music-rich podcasts, screen productions, and live stage works — including the nationally touring double bill Stardust + The Mission, which involved over 200 local musicians across 45 cities. A graduate of the Australia Council's Future Leaders program, he holds degrees from the University of Melbourne, Swinburne, and Deakin, with performance training in Graz, Austria. Joel is now the Conductor of Awkwardstra Geelong, a community orchestra built on a simple but radical idea: that making music together should be open to everyone. Connect with Guest https://www.joelcarnegie.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/joelcarnegie/ Episode Highlights [00:01:47] How Awkwardstra began — and why Joel joined [00:05:37] The philosophy behind the name and what inclusivity looks like in the rehearsal room [00:14:57] Removing barriers: the Awky Pass, coaching programs, and community support [00:18:09] Musical quality vs. inclusivity — a generative tension [00:22:19] The power of story in community music, and commissioning Kim Dillon [00:28:13] Why Joel pursued acting methods and voice training — and how they shape his leadership [00:32:24] The most important qualities in a music leader: empathy, openness, clarity [00:36:28] What music leadership offers that other leadership models don't [00:39:23] Advice for young musicians

Dr Belinda Densley has spent more than 30 years facilitating community singing groups in Geelong, Victoria, and over that time she came to understand that the work was never really about the voice. It was about the mechanics of heart, soul, and mind. That realisation led her through a Masters in Counselling and Psychotherapy and ultimately to a recently completed PhD, in which she developed a grounded theory of group singing facilitation she calls Creating Song Magic. In this episode, Belinda unpacks that theory, exploring the four core dimensions of the facilitator's role: advocating for people's right to sing, curating repertoire that creates meaningful experiences, welcoming and sustaining harmonious expression in the room, and contributing to the transformation of communities. She also speaks candidly about the "hidden work" that singing facilitators do — work that has remained largely invisible, under-resourced, and poorly defined, even within music and community health sectors. We talk about what it means to reframe the singing facilitator as a community health resource, the importance of boundary-setting and reflective practice, and why Belinda believes trauma-informed relational skills should be foundational to any future training for facilitators. She also shares a deeply moving story about a love-and-loss singing session that rippled far beyond the room. Key Topics Discussed The burning question behind Belinda's PhD Why the singing facilitator role has remained hidden  The four categories of Creating Song Magic: advocating, curating, welcoming and sustaining harmonious expression, and transforming communities The difference between participatory, circle-based singing and performance-oriented models like pub choir The facilitator as a community health resource and the consequences of that role remaining unrecognised and underfunded Boundary-setting in facilitation, and how clarity within the facilitator translates to clarity for participants The case for trauma-informed, relational training for singing facilitators  Sharing research findings through a five-part podcast series as an accessible alternative to academic publishing The systemic barriers community singing groups face in accessing physical spaces The role of autonomous health-seeking behaviour in group singing participation Notable Quotes "The work was never really about the mechanics of the voice — it was about the mechanics of heart, soul, and mind." "You have the fundamental human right to sing. You can sing." "We're not asking, are we trying to get the notes to be accurate? We're trying to create the harmony that's beyond musical — a harmony of beingness, a harmony within community." "People fell in love with the singing group and sometimes misplace that love for the facilitator. Getting clear on what your role is does so much of the work. The confusion really stops existing if you're not confused yourself." "I don't advertise — people that come to me come via someone already in the group. There's already an expectation that there's going to be a wellbeing effect from coming." "This thing that just happened today has caused so much therapeutic growth that is beyond the capacity of me as one individual." "Singing with another allows so much possibility in — for love, actually, for love." "There's no reason everyone in Australia can't be in a singing group once a week." Resources Creating Song Magic — Belinda Densley's grounded theory of group singing facilitation (PhD research, Federation University Australia) Belinda's podcast documenting participant experiences of her singing groups  Acabellas About Guest Dr Belinda Densley is a singing facilitator, counsellor, and researcher based in Geelong, Victoria, Australia. For more than 30 years, she has facilitated community singing groups grounded in the belief that singing is a fundamental human right and a powerful vehicle for wellbeing, connection, and community transformation. Belinda holds a Masters in Counselling and Psychotherapy and a PhD from Federation University Australia, where her research focused on the process of group singing facilitation itself. Her grounded theory, Creating Song Magic, is the first study of its kind to illuminate the complex, relational, and largely invisible work that skilled singing facilitators perform. She also teaches postgraduate counselling students and mentors emerging facilitators. Alongside her research, Belinda has disseminated her PhD findings through an accessible five-part podcast series, reflecting her commitment to making practitioner knowledge available beyond academic audiences. Connect with Belinda https://acabellas.com.au/contact/ Episode Highlights 02:00 — The burning question: what mechanisms beneath the wellbeing effects of group singing led Belinda to pursue a PhD? 03:00 — Why the singing facilitator role sits "in the middle of a lot of different areas" and has remained underexplored 05:30 — Singing as a "with" activity— participatory, relational, and whole-body expression 08:50 — Unpacking Creating Song Magic: advocating, curating, welcoming and sustaining harmonious expression, and transforming communities 13:00 — The role of community singing in a hyper-individualistic world: a radical reimagining of what community can be 19:40 — Autonomous health-seeking behaviour: why people come to Belinda's groups already expecting a wellbeing effect 22:00 — Grassroots growth versus scaled investment: how VicHealth and Community Music Victoria once blazed singing groups across Victoria 26:20 — A love-and-loss singing session: 70 people, no words — just song — and a ripple effect that extended far beyond the room 29:00 — The counselling background: why relational work, not musical training alone, is what takes facilitation to the next level 31:00 — Boundary-setting in practice: when participants misplace their love of the group onto the facilitator 34:00 — What Belinda would change: funded training programs, and council recognition of community singing groups in space allocation 39:00 — The closing questions: the lesson music has taught her about human connection, her song of choice for strangers, and her magic wand wish

What happens when a researcher brings together music education and criminology to advocate for the rights of some of society's most marginalised young people? In this episode, I speak with Dr Alexis Kallio, an interdisciplinary researcher whose work sits at a unique and important intersection—one that is challenging how institutions think about music, punishment, and what young people truly need to thrive. Alexis shares how her background in both music education and criminology led her to focus on music programs in youth justice settings, and what she has learned from collaborating with Western Australian hip-hop artist Optimus (Scott Griffiths) on the Banksia Beats program at Banksia Hill Youth Detention Centre. She reflects on what it means to meet young people as musicians rather than as students, why ownership and trust are so transformative in carceral settings, and why trauma-informed practice is relevant for every musician working with young people, not just those in detention. Throughout, Alexis makes a compelling case that music is not a luxury or a reward—it is a fundamental right for every child. Key Topics Discussed How Alexis's degrees in both music education and criminology shaped her research focus on youth justice settings The Banksia Beats program at Banksia Hill Youth Detention Centre and what makes it effective Why meeting young people as musicians—rather than as teacher and student—is central to building trust The importance of agency, ownership, and strengths-based approaches in music programs for incarcerated youth Trauma-informed practice and why it matters across all music education contexts Why there is no one-size-fits-all pedagogical approach: responding to the individual in the room The concept of "hungry listening" (Dylan Robinson) and what it means for musicians working in community settings Alexis's national symposium on music, crime and social change and the community it has created The Policing Australian Popular Music project and its work with Queensland Police Service The case for music and music education as a fundamental right for every child Notable Quotes "At the end of the day, these are children." "In a space where young people have ownership over literally nothing—they can't even choose the temperature of their shower—to have ownership over something with expensive music equipment, and have that as yours, can be a really powerful sense of pride." "There is no one right way, because there's no one child." "Music is all about connection. And connection is all about music." "I'd like music and music education to be a right for every child, regardless of their background or circumstance—something that is seen as essential to their lives now, but also their growth." "Young people's voices are sometimes articulated more clearly through their music than through any words they'll say to a social worker or a psychologist." Resources Mentioned Hungry Listening by Dylan Robinson About Guest Dr Alexis Kallio is an interdisciplinary researcher at Griffith University whose work explores how music education and creative practices create opportunities for equity and justice, particularly for young people experiencing vulnerability or marginalisation. Drawing on expertise in both music education and criminology, Alexis examines how educators and musicians navigate questions of power, values, and meaning in their work. Her research bridges grassroots community practice with institutional frameworks, asking critical questions about how creative spaces can be structured to support positive youth development. She has taught across studio, school, university, and community settings in both Australia and Finland. Connect with Alexis Episode Highlights 05:00 Why Alexis sees all young people—regardless of setting—as deserving the same child-centred approach to music 13:30 What makes the Banksia Beats program so effective, and why musical expertise matters 15:45 The profound impact of ownership and trust in a detention centre music studio 22:00 Why music is uniquely positioned to develop both individual identity and social connection simultaneously 26:00 Dylan Robinson's concept of "hungry listening" and what it means to truly listen to young people 29:00 The national symposium on music, crime and social change—and finding your people 33:30 Alexis's submission to the youth justice inquiry and her challenge to the idea of incarceration as a solution 36:30 The Policing Australian Popular Music project and working with Queensland Police Service

Coming to our senses: How creativity helps us trust our own experience, with Dr Carla van Laar Show Notes In this episode, I speak with Dr. Carla Van Laar, a creative and experiential therapist, painter, and passionate advocate for the creative revolution in mental health and wellbeing. With over 30 years' experience using the arts for health and wellbeing, Carla is the founding director of the Creative Mental Health Forum and convener of the Psychotherapy and Counselling Federation of Australia's (PACFA) College of Creative and Experiential Therapies. Carla shares her compelling vision for how creativity can act as a reality check in a world that constantly asks us to outsource our sense of what's real. From her early childhood discovery of perspective in art through to her current advocacy work at a national level, Carla's journey illuminates why creative engagement is essential—not peripheral—to mental health and social wellbeing. The conversation explores the disconnect between mounting evidence for creative arts therapies and their limited implementation in Australia's health system, the need for a rethink of biomedical models to better accommdate creative therapies, and what happens when we create accessible spaces where people can connect through the arts. Key Topics Discussed Creativity as a Reality Check How creativity restores trust in first-hand experiencing in a society that asks us to outsource our sense of reality The parallel between gaslighting dynamics and systemic forces that undermine our perception How creative practice brings us into the present moment and to our senses—sight, touch, hearing, taste, and scent Creative Flow States and Wellbeing Research on the benefits of engaging in creative practice for as little as 20 minutes How flow states create a sense of timelessness, reduce stress, improve sleep, and help us meet life's challenges Navigating obstacles to creativity: inner critics, self-judgement, attachment to product over process Personal Journey to Creative Arts Therapy How learning about perspective as a young child changed Carla's worldview Using creative practice to navigate uncertainty and make sense of the world through her own lenses The convergence of fine arts, community arts practice, and creative arts therapy Systemic Advocacy and Reform Strategic positioning of creative arts therapies within the broader psychotherapy and counselling framework The 2020 push during COVID to ensure creative therapists were part of mental health system reforms Inclusion in national standards for the psychotherapy and counselling workforce The Evidence Gap and Implementation Challenges Why the question "does it work?" is now outdated—World Health Organisation and global health bodies have established the benefits Creative engagement addresses isolation and loneliness, underlying causes of depression and mental ill-health The challenge of measuring relational, context-responsive practices using biomedical models Looking at return on investment differently: reduced hospital admissions, reduced burden on mental health services, suicide prevention Rethinking Service Delivery Models The limitations of applying one-hour-a-week biomedical models to creative therapies Carla's vision for community creative health hubs where people can spend time, connect, participate, and be audiences The story of the Inverlock Pop-Up Art Co: what happens when creative spaces become accessible The gap between GP mental health care plans and accessible support Shifting Worldviews Why awareness-raising alone isn't enough—people need embodied experience to understand the benefits The 85-year-old veteran who went from "what's this mumbo jumbo?" to "this creative stuff actually helps me" in 12 months Different forms of evidence: the persistence of creative and cultural practices over millennia as proof of efficacy The importance of policy makers and health professionals having their own creative experiences Notable Quotes "Creativity itself can and does restore our trust in first-hand experiencing in a world that keeps asking us to outsource our sense of reality." "Our senses—whichever ones we love the most—can all be sources of wonderful information about the world around us. And they are the original source for us of our ways of knowing and navigating the world. Creativity in that way isn't seen as an escape from reality, it can actually be a reality check." "Engaging in a creative practice of any form really brings us into the here and now. We have to be present, because that's where it's happening, right here, right now." "Connection is the most important thing. We need connection, and in fact, us, like every other living thing, we gravitate towards connection. Everything is connected, everything wants to be connected. We're no different. We need connection to thrive." "Tell me, and I'll forget. Show me, and I might remember, but involve me and I'll understand. When people experience for themselves the benefit, then that's the best evidence that a person can have—knowing that it's good for them." "Look at our evidence. It's the evidence of continuing practice over millennia. It's the evidence that these things persist and continue, and people keep doing them, because people for that long have known that they work." "What if there was a person who took that help seeker and actually literally walked across the road to a community creative hub, and introduced them to a couple of people there? That's what we're missing." "I would wave my magic wand, and boom, inside or beside and alongside and co-located with every GP practice, library, community hub, there would be a community creative hub for every member of Australia's communities." Resources Mentioned Carla's Publications Seeing Her Stories – Explores making women's unseen stories visible through art and includes findings on how creativity brings us to our senses Organisations and Initiatives Creative Mental Health Forum (founded by Carla) PACFA (Psychotherapy and Counselling Federation of Australia) – College of Creative and Experiential Therapies ACARTA (Australian Creative Arts Therapy Association) – founded by Carla and colleagues in 1999 Inverlock Pop-Up Art Co – community arts initiative Research and Policy World Health Organisation evidence on benefits of creative engagement VicHealth advocacy for creative engagement Creative Australia's work on creative engagement for communities National standards for the psychotherapy and counselling workforce (released 2024) About Dr. Carla Van Laar Dr. Carla Van Laar is a creative and experiential therapist, painter, and passionate advocate for the creative revolution in mental health and wellbeing. With over 30 years' experience using the arts for health and wellbeing in community organisations, justice, health, and education settings, Carla has dedicated her career to making creative therapeutic practices more accessible and embedded in Australia's mental health system. As the founding director of the Creative Mental Health Forum and convener of the Psychotherapy and Counselling Federation of Australia's (PACFA) College of Creative and Experiential Therapies, Carla works at both grassroots and systemic levels to advocate for the profession. Her advocacy work spans decades, including founding the Australian Creative Arts Therapy Association (ACARTA) in 1999 as its inaugural president. Carla currently lives and works on Boonwaring country in Inverloch, where she runs a welcoming art studio and creative therapies practice, working with NDIS participants, war veterans, and families affected by violence. Her work is grounded in the philosophy that arts-based practices are essential for healing our troubled world. She has authored two books, including Seeing Her Stories, which explores making women's unseen stories visible through art. Known for community arts initiatives like the Inverloch Pop-Up Art Co, Carla insists on being part of a creative revolution where art re-embodies lived experience, brings us to our senses, and serves as an agent of social change. Connect Carla  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlavanlaar/ Website: https://carlavanlaar.com/ Episode Highlights [00:02] Introduction to Dr. Carla Van Laar and her work in creative arts therapy [01:51] Why we need to be brought back to our senses and how creativity helps [02:50] The gaslighting boss metaphor: how systems undermine our perception of reality [04:39] The biomedical model and the mind-body split [05:16] Research findings: creativity brings us to our senses and into the present moment [08:04] Ancient cultural practices that privileged social and emotional health [08:46] Creative flow states: what happens when we engage for 20 minutes or more [09:39] Navigating obstacles to creativity: inner critics and self-judgement [12:02] Carla's journey into creative arts therapy [13:03] How learning perspective as a young child changed her worldview [15:52] Systemic advocacy work and the founding of ACARTA in 1999 [17:07] COVID and the push for mental health system reform [18:03] Positioning creative arts therapies within PACFA's framework [19:02] Working intermodally: visual arts, mindfulness, embodiment, and drama [20:00] Inclusion in national standards for psychotherapy and counselling [22:30] The disconnect between evidence and implementation [23:01] The question "does it work?" is now outdated [24:11] How creative engagement addresses isolation and loneliness [25:25] Return on investment: reducing burden on health systems [27:08] Why biomedical measurement methods don't fit relational practices [28:08] The problem with one-hour-a-week creative therapy models [28:26] Vision for community creative health hubs [29:09] The challenge of patient perception: when GPs prescribe the arts [30:00] The Parkinson's symposium experience: the unwavering belief in biomedical models [31:01] The inherited systems we've internalized since birth [31:45] Deferring our power to experts versus recognizing our own agency [32:19] Working with resistant participants: the 85-year-old veteran's journey [33:06] "Involve me and I'll understand": experience as the best evidence [34:34] The need for policy makers to have embodied creative experiences [35:12] Different views of evidence: persistence of practice over millennia [36:04] Story of transformation: the Inverloch Pop-Up Art Co [37:02] From empty accountant's office to thriving creative hub in 8 weeks [37:48] 30 local artists emerged from the community [38:42] Workshops flourished: juggling, ukulele, singing, meditation, life drawing [39:02] Why the pop-up wasn't sustainable as an individual enterprise [40:03] What's missing: accessible community creative spaces [40:34] The mental health care plan scenario: 6-12 month waitlists when people are in crisis [41:05] Imagining a different response: walking someone to a creative hub [42:02] Final questions: the most important lesson about human connection [42:34] Connection is what every living thing gravitates toward [42:55] One song to bring randoms together: Bob Marley's "One Love" (with medley including "What the World Needs Now" and "All You Need Is Love") [43:54] Magic wand wish: a community creative hub co-located with every GP practice and library [44:34] Closing remarks

This episode features Liz Lecoanet, an international vocal specialist who's pioneering the integration of singing into healthcare and workplace wellbeing. As the first wellbeing choral conductor employed by New South Wales Health in Australia, Liz shares her passionate mission to make singing as prescribable as exercise, revealing how she co-founded "Singing for Health" with GP Dr Isabel Hansen, a singing group for medical professionals. Liz's journey from opera stages in London and New York to hospital wards reveals a profound shift: the most powerful music happens when we stop trying to "get it right" and start listening. This conversation explores the essential balance between doing and being, the difference between community music and performance, and why Liz is convinced that singing is an essential service. Liz's infectious energy and unwavering conviction that singing is a human right make this a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of arts, health, and social change. Topics Discussed The birth of Singing for Health: How a frustrated conversation about people being told they "can't sing" led to a partnership between music and medicine Prescribing singing like exercise: The campaign to have GPs prescribe singing as a health intervention Creating safe spaces for vulnerability: Why healthcare workers particularly need permission to "get it wrong" The yin-yang of modern life: How singing provides essential balance to our "tick-box" culture Opera training meets community practice: Navigating the transition from perfectionism to presence Embodied leadership: How physical presence and authentic passion create permission for others Medical conferences and boardrooms: Strategies for convincing sceptics through experience The social movement: Positioning arts and health as fundamental rather than supplementary Indigenous wisdom: Reconnecting with singing as inherent human expression Notable Quotes "I just want to go into a court of law and prove what this does to somebody when you tell them that they can't sing... what it does to your immune system, what it does to your relationships, how that changes your workplace... if you tell someone they don't have a voice, what that does to their life, and how you are robbing them of being a human being." "Everybody's breathing in the room, so they qualify as a singer, because they're breathing." "You don't need to be a professional soccer player to take a walk around the block and get some exercise. That's what I'm talking about in terms of singing." "The world of light, the world of doing... we're very busy yang orientated, light people. But very seldom do we actually close our eyes and just listen." "When people discover [their voice], they go from being a waitress to a manager in their café, or they get out of a crappy relationship, they ask their boss for a raise." "These are health workers that were burnt out before COVID, and they came to choir every week online to be muted. If that doesn't tell anyone that's an essential service, what the hell does?" "We need that element. It's missing from some people's lives. And it's got to happen if humanity is going to rise up." "Let's not try and make this into anything, let's just trust our humanity, and trust the song, and trust that it will be something." About Liz Liz Lecoanet is an international vocal specialist and choir conductor who bridges the worlds of professional performance and community wellbeing. With training from London's opera houses and performance experience in New York, she brings a unique perspective to participatory music-making. As the first wellbeing choral conductor employed by New South Wales Health, she co-founded the Singing for Health programme with Dr Isabel Hansen, pioneering the integration of singing into healthcare settings. Liz received the Hidden Hero of Sydney Award from the City of Sydney in 2014 for conducting Creativity Australia's With One Voice Choir, which grew to over 180 members and became the subject of the award-winning documentary "Sing Your Little Heart Out." She has worked internationally, including with Beth Israel Hospital in New York using sound for pain management, and continues to present at medical conferences on the health benefits of singing. Today, Liz conducts multiple community choirs across Sydney, brings singing into workplaces to nurture connection and creativity, and works tirelessly—often voluntarily—to establish singing as a prescribable health intervention in Australia. Her approach emphasises listening over performing, presence over perfection, and the fundamental human right to use one's voice. Connect with Liz https://lizlecoanet.com/ Episode Highlights [00:02:17] Liz's passionate declaration about "proving in court" what denying someone's voice does to their life sets the tone for the entire conversation [00:09:21] The art of holding space for healthcare workers who desperately need permission to make mistakes [00:12:01] How Liz had to unlearn perfectionism [00:23:33] The yin-yang philosophy: Why the realm of sound and listening is the essential remedy to modern life [00:31:47] Getting GPs singing at an international conference—the power of experiential proof [00:39:14] "Can't Help Falling in Love" as the perfect stranger-uniting song: accessible range, no politics or religion [00:41:27] Liz's magic wand wish: Singing spaces as normal as GP visits, supported by government, accessible to all Call to Action If you're inspired by Liz's mission to make singing a prescribable health intervention, consider: Finding or starting a community singing group in your area Supporting the social prescribing movement in Australia Sharing this episode with healthcare professionals and policymakers Remembering that if you're breathing, you qualify as a singer Join the social movement to make music that matters—because as Liz reminds us, singing before speaking is our human heritage, and reclaiming our voices is essential for humanity to rise above the challenges of modern life.

In this episode, Melissa speaks with Dr Francis Yapp, Senior Lecturer and Academic Director of the School of Music at the University of Canterbury in Christchurch, New Zealand. They explore the world of community music and its place in tertiary education. Francis shares his journey from classical training to community music leadership, discusses the innovative community music pathway at Canterbury, and addresses the ongoing debate about institutionalising grassroots musical practices. Key Topics Discussed Defining community music - Exploring what community music means and how it differs from traditional music education approaches Francis's journey to community music - From classical cellist to community music leader, advocate, and educator The University of Canterbury's community music pathway - Origins, curriculum, and graduate outcomes of this innovative programme Teaching philosophy - How group singing and cello teaching experiences shape Francis's pedagogical approach The institutionalisation debate - Addressing concerns about bringing grassroots community music practices into academic settings Māori musical practices - Discussion of waiata, kapa haka, and other traditional forms as examples of community music Māori terms used in this episode: Waiata - Māori songs that serve various cultural purposes and are central to Māori identity Kapa haka - Traditional Māori performing arts including singing, dancing, and chanting Marae - A communal and sacred meeting ground in Māori culture where formal greetings and discussions take place Taonga puoro - Traditional Māori musical instruments, considered cultural treasures Kura Kaupapa Māori - Māori-language immersion schools operating under Māori custom and using Māori as the medium of instruction Te Reo Māori - The Māori language Connect with Guest University of Canterbury School of Music Connect with Francis on LinkedIn Listen to Salve Regina