Dr. Steven M. Gillon on His Friend, John F. Kennedy Jr., and His Life as America’s Reluctant Prince

Hi listeners—please be advised that this episode is true crime in nature and contains graphic descriptions of a violent crime. If this may be triggering for you, please skip this episode, and we’ll see you back in your feed later this week. Take care of yourselves.   We have spoken on I’d Rather Be Reading before about the horrendous quadruple homicide that took place in Moscow, Idaho, in November 2022, where four University of Idaho students were viciously murdered—brutally stabbed to death with a military style knife—while they slept in their off-campus home. Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin senselessly lost their lives on November 13, 2022, and while there has been an arrest made for their deaths, Bryan Kohberger, the accused, has not yet gone to trial. At the crime scene, 1122 King Road, there was no sign of forced entry or damage inside the home. Nothing appeared to be missing. The victims were stabbed multiple times with fatal wounds in the chest and upper body with a large knife. At least one victim had defensive wounds on her hands, and no murder weapon has ever been found. Kohberger was arrested on December 30, 2022, in Pennsylvania; the death penalty is currently being sought in his case, which likely won’t go to trial until next year. He was arrested on four counts of first-degree murder and one felony count of burglary; he pled not guilty to all charges.   Today on the show we have who I consider to be the foremost expert on the case—Howard Blum, who has written a new book, When the Night Comes Falling: A Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders, which came out June 25. Howard’s book, interestingly, is bookended with the stories of two fathers—the book opens being told through the eyes of Bryan Kohberger’s father, Michael, and closes with Steve Goncalves, Kaylee’s father. The level of detail in When the Night Comes Falling is remarkable and heartbreaking, and Howard has a theory about who the target of the crime was—and it’s not who many have speculated it to be all along. In this episode, Howard and I talk about the two surviving roommates and their puzzling actions on that November 13, about Kohberger’s trial and when it’s expected to finally take place, about whether Howard thinks, as I do, that they tore down 1122 King Road—the site of the murders—too prematurely, and so much more. This is a case that haunts me and haunts so many others, I know—many of us remember being carefree college students, and to think of our lives so savagely being cut short as they were really just beginning is tragic and devastating. I know we all want justice for Kaylee, Maddie, Xana, and Ethan, and I hope we find it.   Let me tell you about the dynamic Howard Blum: he is a contributing editor at Vanity Fair, a frequent contributor to Air Mail (which is where I found his work), a former reporter for both The Village Voice and The New York Times, and the author of several nonfiction books, including the New York Times bestseller American Lightning, about the October 1, 1910 bombing of the Los Angeles Times building by union members. Several of his books are bestsellers, actually, and I have no doubt that When the Night Comes Falling will be, too. He earned two Pulitzer Prize nominations while working at The New York Times and has also been nominated for a Pulitzer for his coverage of the Idaho student murders. I can’t imagine that he won’t eventually win a Pulitzer for his coverage in this space. When the Night Comes Falling is the definitive and inside story of this horrific crime, which Howard has covered from the very beginning.   When the Night Comes Falling: A Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders by Howard Blum

As we continue our series on John F. Kennedy Jr., Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy, and Lauren Bessette to honor the 25-year anniversary of their tragic deaths in a July 16, 1999, plane crash, we are going to be talking to people that knew the victims—and I truly want to thank each and every one of them for their courage in talking about them. As I told each of my guests in our pre-show, I know that, to them, these aren’t just celebrities—these are real people and real friends who they loved and lost, and I am so thankful that they all, first of all, shared their stories in the pages of a book, and then, later, with me on this show. Thank you all for having conversations with me.   Today on the show we have Dr. Steven M. Gillon, author of the 2019 book America’s Reluctant Prince: The Life of John F. Kennedy Jr. Dr. Gillon is a leading historian and scholar who was also a close friend of John’s, and I ask him what it is like to examine John from both a historic lens and a deeply personal lens in this book. In America’s Reluctant Prince—which is a great title, by the way—he not only shares his own experience, but also shares exclusive interviews and information from previously classified documents about John’s life, from before his birth until the day he died 25 years ago, a full picture of, as the book puts it, John’s “complicated and rich life.” Dr. Gillon is the scholar-in-residence at the History Channel, a professor of history at the University of Oklahoma, and senior faculty fellow at the Miller Center for the Study of the Presidency at the University of Virginia. Before his current academic appointment, he spent nine years teaching history at Yale and three years at Oxford. He is one of the nation’s leading experts in modern American history and politics, and his articles have appeared not just in academic journals but also in outlets like The Boston Globe, The Los Angeles Times, The New York Daily News, and The Chicago Tribune. Over the past decade, Dr. Gillon has hosted a number of shows on the History Channel and has also served as the main narrator and executive producer for a number of History Channel and A&E documentary specials, including many about the Kennedy family; he also served as the chief consultant on the History Channel’s eight-hour series, The Presidents. Dr. Gillon frequently contributes to HuffPost and has appeared on Today, Good Morning America, CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News as a commentator and expert on issues related to modern American history, and has written or edited nearly a dozen books, including The Pact: Bill Clinton, Newt Gingrich, and the Rivalry That Defined a Generation and the book we are discussing today, about his dear friend John, who he met while at Brown—they met when Dr. Gillon gave a lecture to a class that JFK Jr. was taking about none other than John’s father, President John F. Kennedy. What a way to meet and begin a friendship!   America’s Reluctant Prince: The Life of John F. Kennedy Jr. by Dr. Steven M. Gillon

I still remember exactly where I was on Saturday, July 17, 1999, when the news bulletin flashed across the screen that the small plane carrying John F. Kennedy Jr., his wife Carolyn, and her sister Lauren was missing. The three had flown out of New Jersey’s Essex County Airport the night before, Friday, July 16, in John’s Piper Saratoga plane, headed for Martha’s Vineyard, where they were to drop off Lauren and then go on to Hyannis Port, Massachusetts, where John and Carolyn were due to attend the wedding of cousin Rory Kennedy the next day. But they never made it there, and their plane crashed into the dark waters of the Atlantic Ocean, killing all three passengers instantly. John was 38 years old, Lauren was 35, and Carolyn, just 33 years old.   For our third series on I’d Rather Be Reading, we are focusing on John, Carolyn, and Lauren ahead of the 25-year anniversary of their tragic deaths on July 16. To kickstart our series we have the brilliant biographer Christopher Andersen, who has written 35 books, many of them bestsellers, and two of them about JFK Jr. specifically. Christopher is our guest today to provide context to the landscape of John’s life in 1999; we will later talk to many people who knew John and Carolyn, but to lay the groundwork for those conversations, I thought Christopher would be the perfect person. He has worked at Time and later as a senior editor at People; he has also written for The New York Times, Vanity Fair, Life, and The New York Daily News. He has appeared on nearly every media outlet you can think of discussing culture, and has written many, many books on the Kennedys, the royal family, Katharine Hepburn, Madonna, Mick Jagger, Michael Jackson, the Clintons, the Bushes, the Obamas, Barbra Streisand, and so many more. Today, we’re focusing on two of his books: The Day John Died, released in 2000, and The Good Son: JFK. Jr. and the Mother He Loved, which came out in 2014. Both are fantastic, and I’m excited to kick our series off today and for you to hear from Christopher. All by Christopher Andersen: The Day John Died  The Day John Died 25th Anniversary E-Book The Good Son: JFK Jr. and the Mother He Loved

This conversation today with my new friend Glynnis MacNicol is so empowering, as is her latest book, I’m Mostly Here to Enjoy Myself: One Woman’s Pursuit of Pleasure in Paris, which came out June 11. In Glynnis’ latest memoir, she takes us to Paris during the pandemic—a Paris she calls “quiet Paris”—where, because of COVID, there’s no tourists coming in, and because it’s August, all of the Parisian locals are headed out. It was a magical experience, and Glynnis kind of had the city to herself. In this book and in our conversation today we dissect why it’s still so taboo for women to want to experience pleasure—which Glynnis does during this season in her life, leaning into, as she writes, “the audacity of being selfish.” She writes in the book that “The thing women fantasize about most is freedom”; we talk about that in our conversation today, and I was struck by Glynnis’ ability to so vividly make her reader feel as though they were right alongside her in Paris, experiencing all the city has to offer in a very unique time. In this book, Glynnis writes about the way society regards women over 40; she will turn 50 in early September, and she writes that when you’re a woman of a “certain age,” you are only promised that everything will get worse—but what if everything you’ve been told is a lie? After Glynnis—who, at the time, was 46 and unmarried with no children—spent 18 months in isolation, from March 2020 to August 2021 as the pandemic raged on, this memoir sees her break out of her tiny Manhattan apartment and across the Atlantic to Paris; what follows is, as the book reads, a decadent, joyful, unexpected journey into one woman’s pursuit of radical enjoyment, with her weeks filled with food and friendship and, yes, sex. Glynnis also write the 2018 memoir No One Tells You This about turning 40 and also created and hosted the podcast Wilder: A Reckoning with the Legacy of Laura Ingalls Wilder; she’s written everywhere from The New York Times to The Guardian, The Cut, Town & Country, The Daily Beast, Elle, and The New York Daily News, among others. I can’t wait for you to hear what she has to say.   I’m Mostly Here to Enjoy Myself: One Woman’s Pursuit of Pleasure in Paris by Glynnis MacNicol

There are so many books coming out this month about rethinking women and the workplace—specifically by former magazine editors, which, as a magazine editor, I’m really into. Out today is one of the best books I’ve read in a long time, Samhita Mukhopadhyay’s powerful The Myth of Making It: A Workplace Reckoning, which opens with a beautiful epigraph from Toni Morrison that reads “You are not the work you do; you are the person you are.” So many of us have bought into, as Samhita calls it, the myth of making it—as she writes, our definitions of success are myths, and seductive ones, at that. She writes in the book that we have a collective responsibility to re-imagine work as we know it, and she advocates for a liberated workplace that pays fairly, recognizes our values, and gives people access to the resources they need. The book traces the origins of, basically, how we’ve been getting it all wrong all of these years—I especially enjoyed the rethinking of Helen Gurley Brown, former editor-in-chief at Cosmopolitan and author of Sex and the Single Girl, as well as rethinking Lean In and Girlboss and hustle culture. Samhita writes about how millions of us “in the past decade—and especially during and after the pandemic—have looked at their lives and said, ‘What the fuck?’ Why are we working all the time to make less than our male counterparts? Why are we doing most of the childcare, even when our partnerships are ‘equal’? Why have we sacrificed so much of our personal happiness to be driven by these undefined measures of success? Why were we spending more time with our coworkers than with anyone else in our lives? Why are we tired all the time?” She adds, “The way we work has become untenable, both personally and globally. We are craving something more and something better,” and she adds, of her rock bottom while executive editor at a major fashion magazine, “all I could think was, This is not normal. There must be a better way. My hope is, together, we can find it.” In this book and in this conversation, Samhita discusses the end of the hustle, Anna Wintour, burnout, working moms, and so much more. Samhita is the former executive editor of Teen Vogue and former executive editor at Feministing. As a writer, her work has appeared in New York Magazine, The Cut, Vanity Fair, Vogue, The Atlantic Monthly, and Jezebel. Let’s get into our conversation.   The Myth of Making It: A Workplace Reckoning by Samhita Mukhopadhyay

You may not know the name Judith Jones, but you’ve certainly felt this dynamic woman’s impact and influence on culture. Judith Jones was the editor behind books like The Diary of Anne Frank and Mastering the Art of French Cooking by Julia Child; she was also behind authors like Sylvia Plath, John Updike, Langston Hughes, Sharon Olds, and so many others. Her work, as our guest today writes in her new book, was “unrivaled in the industry.” Book editors are kind of shadow figures—they’re behind-the-scenes, unsung heroes, who, as Sara B. Franklin writes in her book The Editor: How Judith Jones Shaped Culture in America, which came out on May 28, are people who “work in the service of their authors, not themselves, and their touch is meant to be difficult, if not impossible, for readers to see”—a bit of an invisible hand, if you will. Judith Jones rose through the ranks of publishing when it was very much an industry still dominated by men; one of her gifts was the ability to see talent in women writers, especially women writers many had overlooked. It’s hard to believe that, for example, publishers weren’t chomping at the bit for the works of Anne Frank or Julia Child, but they weren’t; it was Judith who saw their books through to the finish line. She is most associated with cookbooks, and Sara writes that Judith may never have fully gotten the respect she so deserved because “books about food were (and to some extent still are) treated with an air of condescension by the literary world.” Sara and I talk about that on the show today, as well as topics like Judith’s portrayal in the 2009 Nora Ephron film Julie & Julia—which Judith didn’t like so much—and some of Judith’s misses, like with the aforementioned Sylvia Plath and The Bell Jar. Through Sara’s book, Judith emerges from the shadows to the spotlight—the amount of passion and dedication Sara put into this bestselling book is remarkable. I can’t wait for you to meet Sara and, through her, meet Judith. A little about Sara: she is a writer, teacher, and oral historian who teaches courses on food, writing, embodied culture, and oral history at NYU’s Gallatin School of Individualized Study. In addition to writing The Editor, she also edited Edna Lewis, co-authored The Phenicia Diner Cookbook, and holds a PhD in food studies from NYU and studied documentary storytelling at both the Duke Center for Documentary Studies and the Salt Institute for Documentary Studies. Take a listen to our conversation.   The Editor: How Judith Jones Shaped Culture in America by Sara B. Franklin

Alzheimer’s and finding a cure for it is a cause I am deeply passionate about; we have spoken about it on the show many times before. I couldn’t be more thrilled to bring you today’s guest, Dr. Heather Sandison, who is here to talk to us about her brand-new book Reversing Alzheimer’s: The New Toolkit to Improve Cognition and Protect Brain Health, which came out June 11. This book is a much-needed exploration of this awful disease, and how both patients and their caregivers can take back control. There are currently 6.5 million Americans alone living with Alzheimer’s, and that number only grows. As Dr. Sandison writes, the urgency for a solution has never been greater, and this book helps us find one. Dr. Sandison is at the forefront of dementia care and research. She is both the founder of Solcere Health Clinic (which is San Diego’s premier brain optimization clinic) and also Marama, the first residential memory care facility to have the goal and aim of returning cognitively declined residents back to independent living. She sees up close and personal every single day what Alzheimer’s and dementia looks like, and she’s doing something about both preventing it and reversing it. The main takeaway that I got from Reversing Alzheimer’s was that there is hope, and that we have more power to fight back against this disease than we previously thought we did. There is a growing body of evidence that shows that implementing a handful of strategies can improve cognition and quality of life in dementia patients, and this book lays out this customizable and doable approach so that work can begin immediately in that effort. If you are looking to fortify your brain health against cognitive decline, implement lifestyle changes that can reverse the effects of Alzheimer’s, transform your environment to support cognitive wellness, and understand options for brain health to fit any budget—this book is for you. This book, for anyone who has experienced Alzheimer’s up close, is a big exhale; Dr. Sandison wants a future where Alzheimer’s is not a terminal diagnosis, but a reversible condition, a future free of the affliction of this disease. I think you, like me, will find hope in these pages and in this conversation. Dr. Sandison is a renowned neuropathic doctor specializing in neurocognitive medicine and is also the primary author of the peer-reviewed research “Observed Improvement in Cognition During a Personalized Lifestyle Intervention in People with Cognitive Decline,” which was published in the Journal of Alzheimer’s Disease last August. She also hosts the annual online Reverse Alzheimer’s Summit, where she shares cutting-edge insight into what is possible for those suffering with dementia. Dr. Sandison is the doctor I wish my family had when my grandparents were suffering with dementia, but one that I’m also so glad is here now with the mission of making dementia rare and optional, and to shatter common misconceptions about Alzheimer’s and share what she has learned about keeping our brains sharp, no matter our age.   Reversing Alzheimer’s: The New Toolkit to Improve Cognition and Protect Brain Health by Dr. Heather Sandison

I’m really excited to bring you today’s conversation with Erika Ayers Badan, who you might know as the woman formerly known as Erika Nardini. (Erika got married, and that explains the name change.) Erika is perhaps most well-known as not just the first female CEO of Barstool Sports, but the first CEO of Barstool Sports, period. If you’re not familiar with Barstool somehow, it’s a sports and pop culture blog that also has podcasts and videos under its umbrella—it’s not afraid to be controversial and shake the industry up, and I think maybe the best word to describe the company is chaotic. Intentionally chaotic. Erika was extremely successful at Barstool, which grew to more than 5 billion monthly video views and 225 million followers under her leadership and was valued at $550 million. During her time at Barstool, Erika referred to herself, very tongue-in-cheek, as a “token CEO,” not only the rare female employee but, again, the CEO of a very male-dominated culture. Not only has Erika experienced ample professional success—and I’ll talk more about that in a moment—but she is someone who clearly just loves to work. She loves what she does. She is invigorated and energized by it, and I relate to that, because I am the same way. Erika’s first book is out today, June 11, and is called Nobody Cares About Your Career: Why Failure Is Good, the Great Ones Play Hurt, and Other Hard Truths, and it is basically a career manual for women and men on how to get it done and have a career that means something. It’s advice from someone who is firmly in the arena; it’s real and raw, tell it to you straight—much like Erika herself. There’s more advice in this book than I could ever give in this episode—it’s page after page of it—and this book is all-encompassing; it really is a career guide I’ll keep with me and return to and return to, again and again. It’s a playbook for success by somebody who has found it. Erika was CEO at Barstool from 2016 until earlier this year, January to be exact; she led the company from 12 employees to over 300 employees, and saw it become a national powerhouse under her leadership. Prior to joining Barstool, Erika held leadership positions at Microsoft, AOL, Demand Media, and Yahoo, and is now, as of April of this year, CEO at Food52, a culinary, lifestyle, and homeware company. One of my favorite aspects of Erika’s philosophy is her fail-always mindset—she embraces failure and doesn’t run from it or shy away from it. As she writes, “Falling down and getting back up—awkwardly at first, but, over time, more gracefully—is what has made my career successful.” There’s a ton of good nuggets here, and I can’t wait for you to read this book and hear our conversation.   Nobody Cares About Your Career: Why Failure Is Good, the Great Ones Play Hurt, and Other Hard Truths by Erika Ayers Badan

Just when you think you know everything there is to know about the White House, here comes Corey Mead and his book The Hidden History of the White House: Power Struggles, Scandals, and Defining Moments, which came out June 4. This book is presented by the hit podcast “American History Tellers,” and it reveals behind-the-scenes stories of some of the most dramatic events in American history, told from right inside the White House where they happened. Talk about “if these walls could talk”—the White House has been the soundstage for some of the most climactic moments in American history, and its walls have witnessed history-making decisions, power struggles, scandals, and so many stories from the First Family, their guests, and the staff at the White House. Just some of the topics delved into were Andrew Jackson’s disastrous inauguration; Woodrow Wilson’s stroke and his second wife Edith’s basically shadow presidency as his administration came to a close; Dolley Madison’s courageous act when the White House was set aflame in 1814; when U.K. Prime Minister Winston Churchill visited the White House and plotted, with FDR, plans to defeat Germany; and the decision by Barack Obama to green-light the Navy SEAL raid that ultimately killed Osama bin Ladin. I talk about this with Corey, but maybe one of the most fascinating parts to me about the book—and I wasn’t expecting this—was the actual construction of the White House itself and its subsequent renovations, especially the 1948 Truman renovation, which we talk about on the show today. The book is broken into three parts: part one, Laying the Foundation; part two, The People’s House; and part three, Halls of Power—each as fascinating as the last. As Corey writes in the book, “Every corner and hallway has a tale to tell,” and there’s so many of those tales in this book. We have Corey Mead on the show today, the author of this great book and also an associate professor of English at Baruch College, City University of New York. In addition to this book, Corey is also the author of Angelic Music: The Story of Benjamin Franklin’s Glass Armonica and War Play: Video Games and the Future of Armed Conflict. You can also find his work everywhere from Time to Salon, The Daily Beast, and numerous literary journals, and I know you’ll enjoy this conversation.   P.S.: The Rebecca Boggs Roberts episode we mention in this conversation about First Lady Edith Wilson is from season 7, episode 6!   The Hidden History of the White House: Power Struggles, Scandals, and Defining Moments by Corey Mead

I’m pulling out the champagne and raising a glass to I’d Rather Be Reading, my passion project and the work of my life, a show that celebrates nonfiction books (and, occasionally, some fiction books and children’s books and cookbooks, too) which aired its first episode three years ago today, on June 7, 2021. Happy three-year anniversary, listeners! Our very first episode on the show was a conversation with Lisa Napoli about her book Susan, Linda, Nina, and Cokie: The Extraordinary Story of the Founding Mothers of NPR, about, at its core, women in journalism. As such, to tie it all together with a bow today, our anniversary special features a trailblazing woman in journalism: the dynamic Lynn Povich. Simply put, my career would not exist without Lynn’s courage. Let’s go back in time to the early 1970s. Lynn was working at Newsweek, and at the time, that magazine, like others at the time as well, only hired men as writers. Women did the researching and reporting, but the men got the byline. Lynn writes in her 2012 book The Good Girls Revolt: How the Women of Newsweek Sued Their Bosses and Changed the Workplace that Newsweek had a serious problem—sexism—and that, in her words, “we all accepted it—until we didn’t.” Lynn and a group of 46 other women ultimately sued the magazine for sex discrimination, becoming the first women in the media to sue for sex discrimination and taking part in the first female class action suit. Lynn’s book, Good Girls Revolt, is the first full account of the Newsweek suit, which, by the way, was later turned into a series on Amazon Prime that I loved. Lynn writes that, prior to the lawsuit, “I don’t think it occurred to many of us that we could actually change the system” and continues “in 1970 we challenged the system and changed the conversation in the news media for the women who participated in the lawsuits. The struggle rerouted our lives and bonded us and gave many of us opportunities.” Lynn went on to become Newsweek’s first female senior editor in 1975 and had a 25-year career at the magazine; she left it in 1991 and has since become editor-in-chief of Working Woman magazine and managing editor and senior executive producer for MSNBC.com. Lynn is from a famed journalism family, and she edited a book of columns by her father, renowned Washington Post sports journalist Shirley Povich called All Those Mornings…At the Post; her brother, by the way, is Maury Povich, and her sister-in-law is Connie Chung. I’d love to be at that family dinner table! Lynn’s husband is also a journalist; his name is Stephen Shepard, and he is the former editor-in-chief of Business Week and founding dean of the graduate school of journalism of the City University of New York. There’s no better person I could think of to mark this important day for our show than Lynn Povich, and I’m excited for you to hear from her today. The Good Girls Revolt: How the Women of Newsweek Sued Their Bosses and Changed the Workplace by Lynn Povich