A Rebellion of Care: Poet David Gate on Words as a Lifeline During Difficult Times

Jen has been a quiet superfan of David Gate ever since discovering one of his poems on Instagram and instantly texting it to six friends. A British-born poet, writer, and visual artist, David explores themes of care, community, and spiritual resilience. Today, he joins Jen and Amy to talk about his latest work, A Rebellion of Care—a powerful blend of essays and poetry rooted in tenderness, authenticity, and resistance. From writing to flour milling and homesteading, David’s life is a living practice of nurturing both self and community with intention. Key highlights from this conversation include:  How radical tenderness can be an act of resistance Why are many people living  radicalized lives without realizing it, and often for things they don't truly care about How homesteading is a rebellion against modern food practices Reimagining masculinity and what it could look like in a better world Building community and friendship as a vital source of joy and support in life How anger and joy are companion emotions The sacredness of everyday practices Thought-provoking Quotes: “I did not want to have an email job and I did not want to be in meetings that could have been emails. I did not want to be on Slack. I just didn't want that to be what I was spending my time doing. I loved caring for people, and I loved creating and writing, and I got to do that within the church world.” – David Gate “It's just very hard not to be cynical about everything and what I found was that I was cynical because I really, really cared. And, because I really, really cared, everything was just so overwhelming, and the easiest way to deal with that was to shut down and be cynical and be snarky. But, I realized that I had to press through and embrace what was behind that cynicism. so I had to really embrace my own earnestness and my own care in the world and concentrate on what I wanted to build rather than what I wanted to tear down.” – David Gate “It’s a constant battle to speak the truth. Even things we all know It can be difficult to say, if it's not something that is normally said, and it's not something that is normally expressed, so you have to fight for that and you have to fight for your experience of the truth. You have to fight for your story. You have to fight for all of that.” – David Gate “I think it's very, very difficult for men to reach for emotional honesty because everything tells you that you're failing if you do that. But it's the most important work right now. And so much of what men are actually looking for in this world, intimacy, a sense of place, a sense of belonging, companionship, adventure, excitement, is on the other side of reaching for that emotional honesty.” – David Gate Resources Mentioned in This Episode: A Rebellion of Care: Poems and Essays by David Gate - https://amzn.to/4jjf87X Good Soil: The Education of an Accidental Farmhand by Jeff Chu - https://amzn.to/3GnS21w Cultivating Belonging and Evolving Faith with Jeff Chu - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/cultivating-belonging-and-evolving-faith-with-jeff-chu/ Sarah Bessey - https://www.sarahbessey.com/ Armando Veve, Illustrator - https://www.instagram.com/armandoveve/ Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/3YHKgpw Sinners film (2025) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt31193180/ Malaprop's Bookstore, Asheville - https://www.malaprops.com/ Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.davidgatepoet.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/davidgatepoet/ Substack - https://substack.com/@davidgatepoet Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jennie Garth is best known to Gen-Xers for her iconic role playing Kelly Taylor on the megahit television series Beverly Hills 90210.  Fans of the show may remember Kelly’s pivotal “I Choose Me” episode (airing thirty years ago this past May) when she stood between dreamboats Brandon and Dylan and declared that she was choosing herself.  Jennie shaped an entire era of pop culture, and now, at fifty-two, she is embracing an incredible new chapter of life—one filled with bold conversations about aging, empowerment, self-love, and the beautiful messiness of midlife. Through her thought-provoking “I Choose Me” podcast and a forthcoming memoir of the same name, Jennie is using her platform to champion other women over fifty by challenging outdated narratives around aging and sparking empowering conversations. Today, Jennie, Jen and Amy talk about what choosing yourself looks like on a normal day, and what it means to be graduate beyond our growing family years into a more independent space where a new age of self-discovery is possible because, as Jennie reminds us, choosing “you” isn’t selfish—it’s the most powerful act of self-respect. Thought-provoking Quotes: “It was through my conversations with fans, whether it was on social media. or at autograph events that I kept hearing, ‘I didn't know I could choose me until Kelly Taylor told me it was an option.’” – Jennie Garth “If I had gone to college and lived a normal life, then I would have learned things that I didn't actually end up learning until I was in my forties and fifties. So now I'm just searching like, ‘What did I miss and how can I be better? How can I learn more about myself?’” – Jennie Garth “You look around on social media and you see other people's lives and think, ‘My God, they have it all figured out.’ And I just never felt like that personally.” – Jennie Garth “Loving yourself is a journey and it’s imperative to your wellbeing.” – Jennie Garth “I don’t want to please people by being what they want me to be or fitting into this character's shoes. I love acting and I'll never not love acting. But I had to take the bull by the horns and take control of my life.” – Jennie Garth “Competition amongst women was real. It was just part of the  world I grew up in. I had to be better than the next girl. What a waste of so much precious time and energy. I used to be intimidated by other women's success or knowledge or position. I kick myself for all the years of lost opportunity of that kind of camaraderie and connection with other women. I feel it so strongly now. It's something that can never be quieted again,” – Jennie Garth Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Beverly Hills, 90210 (1990-2000) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098749/ Tori Spelling - https://www.instagram.com/p/DKAANczu145/?hl=en I Choose Me Women’s Summit 2025 - https://jenniegarth.com/pages/i-choose-me-movement I Choose Me: Chasing Joy, Finding Purpose & Embracing Reinvention by Jennie Garth - https://amzn.to/44d8eMM Me by Jennie Garth QVC Collection - https://jenniegarth.com/pages/me-by-jennie-garth Feeding America - https://www.feedingamerica.org/partners/entertainment-council/jennie-garth American Heart Association - https://www.heart.org/en/health-topics/at-the-heart-of-it-with-nancy-brown/the-power-of-positivity-with-jennie-garth Guest’s Links: Website - https://jenniegarth.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jenniegarth/ Twitter - https://x.com/jenniegarth Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jenniegarth TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@officialjenniegarth Podcast - https://jenniegarth.com/pages/i-choose-me-podcast Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: As a former TV producer turned novelist, Sophie Cousens’ books have been published in over 20 languages. Her previous novels—including This Time Next Year and Before I Do—have delighted readers around the world with their warmth, humor, and honest portrayal of love in all its messy, beautiful forms. Today, we sit down with Sophie to discuss her decade of experience producing some of our favorite TV shows like The Graham Norton Show and Big Brother and how that valuable experience behind the scenes in television shaped the way she now tells stories as a novelist, allowing her to thread the needle between heartfelt and funny, heartwarming and satirical. We talk about her approach to writing—does she prefer to start with a character or a plot?--as well as how she brilliantly employs a variety of  familiar rom-com setups (friends-to-lovers, missed connections, etc.) yet, they never feel overt or cliché. If you’ve ever tried to date post-divorce, juggled motherhood with figuring out who the heck you even are anymore, or questioned whether love in your 40s is even worth it—you’re going to enjoy today’s conversation about our June JHBC selection, Is She Really Going Out With Him?  With nods to fairy tales, dating apps, and the iconic Joe Jackson song that inspired the title, the book asks: how do you start over when you’re not 22 anymore—and how do you know when it’s real? Thought-provoking Quotes: “I’ve been a producer on shows that were much more produced—you've got a script, you've got a plan, you know exactly what you're getting; whereas with [Big Brother] we were just dealing with real people and real people's emotions and the experience of being in this slight madhouse.” – Sophie Cousens “Tropes are enduring because they are beloved. Sometimes, that word has a negative connotation but, in this case, it’s not true. These are story tropes that readers love. I love how you talk about them and go, no, I’m not going to steer away from them or try to reinvent them or try to avoid them. I’m going to go full-in.” – Jen Hatmaker “I absolutely love films of that 90s and 2000s era. That’s very much the tone in which I write. I think there’s something pure and simple about that era of films, which is why so many of them are enduring.” – Sophie Cousens Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Russel Howard’s Good News - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00phwkz The Graham Norton Show - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006xnzc Big Brother - https://www.cbs.com/shows/big_brother/ Notting Hill (1999) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0125439/ Bridget Jones’s Diary by Helen Fielding - https://amzn.to/4dJsJ6y Just Haven’t Met You Yet by Sophie Cousens - https://amzn.to/45IC4tt And Then There Was You by Sophie Cousens COMING NOVEMBER 2025 - https://amzn.to/3Fq5SR4 Romy and Michelle’s High School Reunion (1997)  - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120032/ Claudia Jessie (Eloise Bridgerton) - https://www.instagram.com/claudiajessies/?hl=en Atmosphere: A Love Story by Taylor Jenkins Reid - https://amzn.to/4mYRzUk Great, Big, Beautiful Life by Emily Henry - https://amzn.to/43IRYTp Julia Whelan, audio narrator - https://jmwhelan.com/narrator/ The Husbands: A Novel by Holly Gramazio - https://amzn.to/4dQnNx5 Holly Bourne, author - https://hollybourne.co.uk/ Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.sophiecousens.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/sophie_cousens/ Twitter - https://x.com/sophiecous Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/sophiecousensauthor Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde is a leading voice in modern faith leadership and the first woman elected to serve as Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Washington, a role she’s held since 2011. While the job isn’t always glamorous, she says, the sacred moments in the public eye matter deeply—and she treats them with care. Bishop Budde gained national attention for boldly speaking out against the Trump administration, including condemning the 2020 photo-op at St. John’s Episcopal Church and, more recently, offering a prayer for LGBTQ+ justice with President Trump and Vice President Vance seated before her. Her calm, courageous leadership has made her one of the most trusted voices in public faith today. In this conversation with Jen, Bishop Budde shares her journey from a small Minnesota congregation to the national stage—and how she finds the courage to speak truth to power and stand with the marginalized, even when the cost is high. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I think, in some ways, vocations choose you as much as you choose them.” – Mariann Edgar Budde “It's not as if the world stopped on January 21st. So much is happening every single day and there are consequences to the decisions being made.” – Mariann Edgar Budde “I wouldn't have chosen the way they're going, but a lot is being dismantled right now and we've got to be there to help rebuild.”  – Mariann Edgar Budde Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Raygun: Bishop Budde Fan Club T-Shirt - https://www.raygunsite.com/products/bishop-budde-fan-club Receiving Jesus: The Way of Love by Mariann Edgar Budde - https://amzn.to/45GO5jh How We Learn to Be Brave: Decisive Moments in Life and Faith by Mariann Edgar Budde - https://amzn.to/4kbZtan Sermon by The Right Rev. Mariann Edgar Budde | Washington National Cathedral, 1.21.25 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwwaEuDeqM8 Love is the Game Changer of Our Faith: Bishop Michael Curry - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-24/love-is-the-game-changer-of-our-faith-bishop-michael-curry/ Goodness Triumphs Through Good People: A Year-End Benediction from Bishop Michael Curry – https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-39/goodness-triumphs-through-good-people-a-year-end-benediction-from-bishop-michael-curry/ Austin Channing Brown - https://austinchanning.com/ Tim Shriver - https://www.timothyshriver.com/ The Dignity Index - https://www.timothyshriver.com/projects/the-dignity-index Jen Hatmaker Traded Religious Rules for Spiritual Practices - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jen-hatmaker-traded-religious-rules-for-spiritual-practices/id1765227660?i=1000691362907 Building Bridges, Not Walls: Tim Shriver on Dignity that Transcends Disagreements - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/building-bridges-not-walls-tim-shriver-on-dignity-that-transcends-disagreements/ Bryan Stevenson - https://eji.org/bryan-stevenson/ I Believe in the Sun - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mplEEQn5znA&t=112s Guest’s Links: Website - https://edow.org/about/bishop-mariann/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/mariannbudde Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/bishopmariannbudde TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@mariann_edgar_budde_ Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: Katie Sturino is one of those people who makes you feel instantly braver just by being in the room. With her bold fashion choices, unfiltered honesty, and joyful presence online, the powerhouse founder of Megababe, style influencer, and unapologetic voice for body confidence has inspired so many of us to rethink how we see our bodies and ourselves. Her first book Body Talk, part memoir, part manifesto, focused on the all too important topic of learning to love the skin you’re in. Now, she’s back—and this time, she’s putting her hand to fiction! Of course, we wanted to talk to this multi-hyphenate about what it’s like flexing yet another new muscle. Katie and Jen talk about the inspiration behind Sunny Side Up, a book Jennifer Weiner has called a modern-day Bridget Jones’ Diary (without the toxic self-loathing) and Katie shares what the writing process was like, an experience Katie  equated to being put through a pasta machine. She and Jen also reminisce about when they first met almost a year ago—backstage at an Oprah special and the grueling decisions they grabbed with (as so many women do for such an event)—what to wear.  Thought-provoking Quotes: “I lead with solution. That is the thing that's consistent for me because I love business. I love talking to people about the businesses they wanna start, the businesses that they're running. I like solving problems.” – Katie Sturino “We love turning on a woman online. We love it—everything from Meghan Markle dancing in birthing room and Blake Lively. We just love turning on women. It’s like sport.” Katie Sturino “I don't have the MBA. I feel like most businesses that are dreamed up are done in a Harvard think tank, and I don't have that. So that's another thing that I feel insecure about, because whenever I'm up on panels or in a room full of similar founders, their stories have a really specific ladder and I'm like in my parents’ garage, you know, it's different.” – Katie Sturino “Writing this book was the hardest thing I have ever done. This was awful. I'm gonna say that out loud so that if anyone out there is like, I'm gonna write a book one day—pop that bubble! Pop that bubble! It's not you in a cozy room with a typewriter and a mug. It's like open eyeball surgery while you're awake. It's really hard.” – Katie Sturino Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Making the Shift: A new way to think about weight - https://www.weightwatchers.com/makingtheshift/ Megababe - https://megababebeauty.com/ The Deodorant Jen swears by - https://megababebeauty.com/collections/pits Sunny Side Up: A Novel by Katie Sturino - https://amzn.to/3SLK1qd Tressie McMillan Cottom - https://tressiemc.com/ Using Storytelling to Address Complex Social Issues: Dr. Tressie McMillan Cottom - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/using-storytelling-to-address-complex-social-issues-dr-tressie-mcmillan-cottom/ #SupersizeTheLook - https://www.instagram.com/explore/search/keyword/?q=%23supersizethelook Kitty & Vibe: Katie Sturino Swimsuit Collection - https://www.kittyandvibe.com/collections/sunny-side-up Guest’s Links: Website - https://megababebeauty.com/pages/about Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/katiesturino/ Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmlgRDiOCywtaamAc5q-7VQ TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@katiesturino Substack - https://katiesturino.substack.com/p/katie-sturino-writer Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/boob-sweat-with-katie-sturino/id1483683205 Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: Today, we’re revisiting a pivotal conversation that changed the course of Jen’s life and career. In 2016, during what was expected to be a routine interview with journalist Jonathan Merritt, Jen found herself speaking publicly for the first time about her views on abortion, politics, and LGBTQ+ issues—beliefs she had been wrestling with privately for over a year. While she was confident in her answers, she was unprepared for the backlash that followed. In this encore episode, Jen and Jonathan reflect on that moment and its ripple effects. Jonathan shares his own parallel journey—growing up as the son of a megachurch pastor, internalizing the “love the sinner, hate the sin” message, and later confronting his own identity as a gay man. His story, like Jen’s, became public in ways he never expected, leading him on a path of deeper truth, faith, and purpose. Thought-provoking Quotes: “You told the truth. You were ready for this interview. You had actually been doing the work for a decade to be ready to answer those questions honestly. But, your PR wasn't ready.” – Amy Hardin “The best way to live is true. No matter what you think it will cost or what it does cost you, the cost is worth the reward.” – Jen Hatmaker Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Religion News Service - https://religionnews.com/about-rns/ Jen Hatmaker: Trump, Black Lives Matter, gay marriage and more by Jonathan Merritt - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/article/jen-hatmaker-trump-black-lives-matter-gay-marriage Growing Up Evangelical and Gay with Jonathan Merritt - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-63/growing-up-evangelical-and-gay-with-jonathan-merritt/ My Saddest Good Friday in Memory: When Treasured Things are Dead - https://jenhatmaker.com/my-saddest-good-friday-in-memory-when-treasured-things-are-dead/ Love is the Game Changer of Our Faith: Bishop Michael Curry - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcast/series-24/love-is-the-game-changer-of-our-faith-bishop-michael-curry/ How to Create a Politics of Love: Lisa Sharon Harper - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcast/series-24/how-to-create-a-politics-of-love-lisa-sharon-harper/ Christian Rock Star Comes Out as Gay in Letter to the World - Jonathan Merritt - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/article/christian-rock-star-admits-hes-gay-writes-letter-to-fans?rq=trey%20pearson Eugene Peterson on Changing His Mind About Same-Sex Issues and Marriage – Jonathan Merritt - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/article/eugene-peterson-changing-mind-sex-issues-marriage?rq=eugene Leading Evangelical Ethicist is now Pro-LGBT (David Gushee) – Jonathan Merritt - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/article/leading-evangelical-ethicist-now-pro-lgbt?rq=david A Faith of Our Own: Following Jesus Beyond the Culture Wars – Jonathan Merritt -  Dr. Michael Lindsay,  Sociologist & Author - https://www.taylor.edu/about/president-profile James Martin, Jesuit Priest - https://www.instagram.com/jamesmartinsj/ Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jonathan_merritt Twitter - https://x.com/JonathanMerritt Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/JonathanMerrittWriter Substack - https://jonathanmerritt.substack.com/ Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: With over two decades of experience in the field, Vanessa Marin is on a mission to help people break down shame, talk openly about sex, and create truly intimate relationships. As a a licensed psychotherapist, sex educator, and bestselling author of Sex Talks: The Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life, which she co-wrote with her husband, Xander, Vanessa brings a candid, humorous, and deeply compassionate voice to a topic that too often stays in the dark Whether your relationship is in a rut, your spark feels a little… dim, or you just want to feel more connected—to your partner and yourself—this one’s for you. Vanessa is going to help us say yes to communication, to connection, and maybe most of all, to pleasure. Some topics we dig into: Why we have knee-jerk reactions to sex rooted in shame Why Vanessa says you should start having sex like a man The myth about the female orgasm The best things for your sex life that have nothing to do with taking off your clothes The difference between spontaneous desire versus responsive desire Thought-provoking Quotes: “Despite not getting a great introduction to sex or intimacy or relationships, I had this intuitive sense that there should be joy with this act. There should be connection and intimacy, and it should be something I should feel excited to explore when the time is right.” – Vanessa Marin “This is literally what I am here on this earth for, is to help people get more comfortable talking about sex, connection, and intimacy.” – Vanessa Marin “A lot of people hear, she's a sex therapist. They must have this incredible sex life. the reality is, we've been through ups and downs, too. ” – Vanessa Marin “We get very little, if no, actual sex education. Most of us are left with movies, and TV, and porn as our only sex education. So it's totally understandable that most of us see these scenes and think, that's what I'm looking for. That's the kind of connection I'm supposed to have with my partner. But, the reality is the way that sex looks on TV and in the movies, that's designed for entertainment. It's designed to look good and be pretty. It's not what sex really looks like in real life.” – Vanessa Marin Research has shown that in male-female relationships, women are carrying the vast majority of the mental load. There is so much that is going through our heads on a daily basis—all this tracking, and preparing, and anticipating, and evaluating, our heads are just constantly going. And when you have so much in your brain, it makes it really hard to make the space for intimacy and desire too.” – Vanessa Marin Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Sex Talks: The Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life by Vanessa Marin and Xander Marin - https://amzn.to/43VSwnS The Sex Talks Card Deck and Guidebook: 90 Prompts to Deepen Connection and Spark Intimacy - https://amzn.to/3Hys1xa Vanessa and Xander’s Deeper Monthly Membership - https://buy.vmtherapy.com/deeper Guest’s Links: Website - https://vmtherapy.com/about Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/vanessaandxander/ Twitter - https://x.com/VMTherapy Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/vanessaandxander/ Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/vanessamarin TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@vanessaandxander Pinterest - https://www.pinterest.com/vanessaandxander/_created/ Podcast - https://vmtherapy.com/podcast/ Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: KC Davis is a licensed professional counselor, an author, a speaker, and, frankly, one of the most compassionate, funny, down-to-earth voices out there. During the pandemic, she created an amazing platform called Struggle Care where she has been teaching us how to care for ourselves (and our homes) without stigma or shame. Like—if the laundry’s piled up or the dishes aren’t done, it doesn’t mean you’re lazy or broken. It just means you’re living life. It’s a gracious approach to self-care that we wildly embrace.  KC’s first book, How to Keep House While Drowning, was a total game-changer for so many women  who’ve felt overwhelmed by the everyday—and now she’s back with a brand new book called Who Deserves Your Love, helping us figure out which relationships we want to invest in, which ones need boundaries, and maybe even which ones we need to step away from.  This conversation goes to some deep places. We talk about: What mistreatment looks like in relationships, as opposed to abuse The stories that we tell ourselves about another person’s behavior when we get caught up in the vulnerability cycle What it means to be morally neutral How to use a relationship decision tree to evaluate and make decisions about a relationship And the sticky secret to enforcing boundaries With accessibility, humorous relatability, and vulnerability,  KC is here to help us navigate the messy, complicated work of loving people and loving ourselves. Thought-provoking Quotes: “Sometimes my publishers will give me some advice like, ‘Let’s project that you’re a credible expert’, meanwhile I’m shooting TikToks from the toilet.” – KC Davis “Despite being a therapist, I did not realize that I had severe postpartum depression because I didn't feel sad.” KC Davis “Messiness is not a moral failing. Either your messiness is just a part of your personality and it's pretty functional for you and you don't need to change anything and accept yourself or maybe it's because you're having a hard time.” – KC Davis “No one has ever shamed themselves into better mental health.” – KC Davis “Self-care is not the thing you do to make yourself not struggle. It is learning how to take care of yourself while you struggle.” – KC Davis Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Who Deserves Your Love: How to Create Boundaries to Start, Strengthen, or End Any Relationship by KC Davis - https://amzn.to/3GVFdfh How to Keep House While Drowning: A Gentle Approach to Cleaning and Organizing by KC Davis - https://amzn.to/43dAn4n KC Davis Resources - https://www.strugglecare.com/resources KC Davis TED Talk - How To Do Laundry When You’re Depressed - https://www.ted.com/talks/kc_davis_how_to_do_laundry_when_you_re_depressed_apr_2022 Thomas–Kilmann Conflict Styles - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas%E2%80%93Kilmann_Conflict_Mode_Instrument Struggle Care - https://www.strugglecare.com/ Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.strugglecare.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/strugglecare Twitter - https://x.com/KCDavisSays Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/StruggleCare/ TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@domesticblisters Podcast - https://www.strugglecare.com/struggle-care Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:Beloved author Wade Rouse—who writes under the pen name Viola Shipman—joins Jen for a heartfelt, hilarious, and deeply insightful conversation about writing, identity, and honoring the women who shape us. Known for his evocative novels rooted in love, memory, and family, Wade shares the origin of his pen name (a tribute to his grandmother), the transition from memoir to fiction, and how Michigan became the emotional landscape for so many of his stories.In this touching episode, Jen and Wade dive into: The joy (and exhaustion) of book tours The beauty of writing from grief The fight against genre-shaming in publishing Why women’s voices in literature matter more than ever His latest novel The Page Turner, and what inspired it His upcoming project that’s giving Golden Girls a queer twist Whether you’re a book lover, an aspiring writer, or someone who believes in the power of personal stories, this episode is packed with inspiration, connection, and literary magic.Thought-Provoking Quotes:★ “My grandmother never finished high school, but she taught me to love myself unconditionally. My novels are a thank-you to her.” – Wade Rouse★ “The most fearful place in your life can also be the place you take off from.” – Wade Rouse★ “I’m not having it—genre shaming diminishes stories that speak to real people in real life.” – Wade Rouse★ “Writing is how I make sense of the world. It’s what keeps me alive.” – Wade Rouse★ “Real readers read your books.” – Jen HatmakerResources Mentioned in This Episode:➢ The Page Turner by Viola Shipman - https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-page-turner-viola-shipman/c2LjF3Fyg5p6hhsJ➢ Thank You for Being a Friend (Coming Spring 2026 from Wade Rouse) - https://www.harpercollins.com/products/thank-you-for-being-a-friend-wade-rouse?variant=43837257121826➢ On Being Jewish Now, edited by Zibby Owens – https://zibbymedia.com/products/on-being-jewish-now?srsltid=AfmBOopN4cohtpA6k7EbIWC3F0Pq7dYqivWB5s97E-e9iEtFrw4sugUH➢ Erma Bombeck –https://amzn.to/3DT9NoL➢ BookPeople in Austin, TX – https://www.bookpeople.com➢ Visit Saugatuck, MI – https://www.saugatuck.comGuest’s Links:Website – https://www.violashipman.comInstagram – https://www.instagram.com/violashipmanFacebook – https://www.facebook.com/ViolaShipmanBooksConnect with Jen!Website – https://jenhatmaker.comInstagram – https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerFacebook – https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerYouTube – https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmakerThe For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: Today, we’re playing a few of our favorite messages and responding to what you, our listeners, have shared. Whether it’s midlife realizations, hard-won wisdom, or letting go of stuff that just isn’t serving you anymore—this is about all of us learning from each other. Thank you to Alice, Ann, Sarah, Ashley, #1 Becky and  “Badass Becky”   Also, Sydney Hatmaker said some hurtful things to us about us broadcasting our bare old lady feet on the podcast and we had to take a minute to discuss a new dress code policy. Thought-provoking Quotes: 18:00 Sometimes the tool is just language – Amy Hardin 21:00 Tools all in use but still suffering – Jen 27:00 I want to shake people and pull things over. I’m not sure that’s the appropriate response. – Jen 29:30 If we don’t counter messages, others will take over. – Jen 47:00 Make a list of your accomplishments to use for momentum – Amy 48:00 I think we are at our best in the second half of life – Jen 58:00 I want out of the rat race – Jen Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Reclaiming Your Power: Moms Demand Action’s Shannon Watts on Living a Life of Passion and Purpose - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/reclaiming-your-power-moms-demand-actions-shannon-watts-on-living-a-life-of-passion-and-purpose/ Camino de Santiago - https://santiago-compostela.net/ Midlife Isn’t a Crisis, It’s a Comeback: Maddie Corman on Being Accidentally Brave - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/midlife-isnt-a-crisis-its-a-comeback-maddie-corman-on-being-accidentally-brave/ Betrayal Trauma - https://www.verywellmind.com/betrayal-trauma-causes-symptoms-impact-and-coping-5270361 Brené Brown - https://brenebrown.com/ Books by Brené Brown - https://amzn.to/3FgwnIt The Tears of Things: Living Prophetically in an Age of Outrage with Richard Rohr - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/the-tears-of-things-living-prophetically-in-an-age-of-outrage-with-richard-rohr/ Trump administration says it’s cutting 90% of USAID foreign aid contracts - https://apnews.com/article/trump-usaid-foreign-aid-cuts-6292f48f8d4025bed0bf5c3e9d623c16 Kendra Adachi - https://www.thelazygeniuscollective.com/ Escaping the Productivity Trap: Kendra Adachi’s Lazy Genius Perspective - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/escaping-the-productivity-trap-kendra-adachis-lazy-genius-perspective/ Frances Mayes - https://www.francesemayes.com/ Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices