Final Final

In this episode, Ryan Gilbert shares how he escaped seven years in supply chain by building Workspaces, a newsletter showcasing creative home offices that now reaches 15,000+ subscribers. After countless tech job rejections from Wisconsin, Ryan discovered that building in public could open doors that resumes couldn't.We dive deep into his journey from secretly starting a pandemic project to landing roles at Product Hunt, experiencing a hollow acquisition with Loops, buying back his creation for $1, and finally joining beehiiv. Along the way, we explore why he manually posts everything (6,000+ tweets and counting), the psychological complexity of selling your own creation, and how becoming a father to baby Lily has reshaped his approach to creative risk.Big Takeaways:How side projects can bypass traditional hiring gatekeepersThe power of piggybacking on others' audiences for growthWhy consistency matters more than perfection (publishing every weekend since April 2020)The hidden costs of acquisition successHow parenthood changes your relationship with creative riskWhy manual presence beats automation for authentic connection

Design management is evolving faster than ever. Kris Puckett, the "Ted Lasso of design managers" at Shopify, shares an unfiltered look at navigating this shift - from bombing his Figma interview to embracing AI tools he once resisted.In this candid conversation, we explore why companies now demand player-coaches over pure managers, how to survive brutal job searches (publicly), and why "vibe coding" represents the future of design leadership. Kris reveals how AI finally unlocked his 20-year dream of building an iOS app and why being a "personality hire" might actually be your superpower.Essential listening for design leaders adapting to industry changes, anyone struggling with job searches, or designers curious about integrating AI without losing their creative soul.Some Key Takeaways:The player-coach model is reshaping design leadership - Companies want leaders who can both manage and makeBeing a "personality hire" is a compliment - Relational skills combined with craft create unique valueRemote culture requires intentional effort - "We've lost some of our fight to maintain relationships"AI unlocks impossible projects - After 20 years of trying, Kris built his app using Claude and CursorFailure teaches faster than success - Bombing interviews led to complete portfolio rebuildsShow the thing, not the deck - Vibe-coded prototypes beat presentations every timePatience with AI pays off - "The ones that are really patient... can get their idea out there"

Matt Varughese, CEO of 8020 and former petroleum engineering student, shares his unconventional journey from retail work at Nike to building one of the most respected Webflow agencies in the industry. This conversation explores how strategic naivety, cold emailing, and the courage to reject traditional career paths led to working with clients like Ellen DeGeneres, Dr. Andrew Huberman, and Chance the Rapper.Key TakeawaysStrategic ignorance as a superpower: Not knowing how hard agency life would be allowed Matt to take risks that expertise would have preventedCold emailing with proof of work: The exact strategy that landed Chance the Rapper - showing value upfront instead of asking for meetingsProject minimums are negotiable: Taking smaller projects from big names can lead to massive long-term relationshipsAI is flipping the difficulty curve: Marketing websites are now harder to automate than web apps - creating new opportunitiesRelationships over revenue: Every major client came through relationships and referrals, not traditional salesTimestamps[00:00] Introduction and Matt's unique agency structure[02:26] Why aviation and motorcycles beat screen time[04:01] Indian immigrant parents vs. creative career aspirations[09:00] Starting Websterpiece in high school - the $525 first client[14:50] The Snapchat geo-filter hack that got Chance's attention[22:36] From contractor to CEO - the Tiny acquisition story[33:59] The lawsuit on day one of running 8020[41:32] How referrals led to Ellen DeGeneres and Huberman Lab[51:14] Going full circle - buying back the agency[56:38] The cold email philosophy and proof of work strategy[59:06] Why AI + Webflow is the next frontierResources Mentioned8020 Agency: [8020.com]The Visual Developers Podcast (co-hosted by Matt)Peter Kang's agency articles (Barrel)Blair Enns - agency thought leadershipCursor + Webflow AI workflowsSupercast - premium podcast platformGuest InformationMatt Varughese is CEO and Partner at 8020, a leading Webflow Enterprise agency. Starting his first agency Websterpiece while in high school, Matt has built websites for Chance the Rapper, Ellen DeGeneres, Dr. Andrew Huberman, and more. He splits time between Oklahoma City and New York.

Designer, drummer, and creative entrepreneur Kyle Barrett shares his unconventional journey from Whiteboard's first employee to building a successful freelance practice specializing in music industry design. This conversation explores the reality of multi-creative careers, the challenges of freelance creative work, and building sustainable practice that honors your full creative identity rather than forcing specialization.Key TakeawaysCreative careers rarely follow linear paths: Kyle's journey from childhood fascination with CD typography to pharmaceutical consideration to design specialization demonstrates the non-linear nature of authentic creative developmentEarly creative obsessions often signal future professional direction: His childhood hours spent studying album liner notes directly connected to his eventual specialization in music industry designCommunity and mentorship accelerate creative career development: From Jonathan Cattrell's introduction to Whiteboard founders to AJ Cheek's first album project, relationships opened doors that solo effort couldn'tSpecialization can coexist with creative diversity: Kyle developed deep expertise in music industry design while maintaining his identity as a drummer and exploring other creative outletsThe freelance landscape requires constant adaptation: Success means navigating business cycles, client relationships, and industry changes while maintaining creative quality and personal sustainabilityPhysical practices support creative work: Regular exercise and movement are essential for maintaining creative flow and mental clarity during long design sessionsTimestamps 00:00 - Meet Kyle Barrett 07:29 - Early creative influences and childhood design fascination 15:37 - Realizing creative work could be a career 20:35 - Balancing multiple creative identities (design + music) 26:15 - Transition from Whiteboard to freelance practice 32:07 - Following creative interests vs. pressure to generalize 34:10 - Building music industry specialization 39:47 - Landing the Sleeping At Last collaboration 44:18 - The ups and downs of freelance creative practice 49:20 - Portfolio career approach and changing creative landscape 54:42 - Advice for multi-creative professionals This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit copyoffinalfinal.substack.com

When startup marketing leader Peter Sum turned 34, he had a moment of reckoning that changed everything. Despite 15 years of success in tech, he couldn't shake the feeling that he wasn't fully bringing himself to his work. Today, Peter runs Kenzie Club, hosting sold-out supper clubs in Berlin and redefining what career success actually means.This conversation explores the messy reality of career transitions, from the privilege required to make big changes to the fear of burning bridges to your old identity. Peter shares how moving to Berlin opened new perspectives on authentic living, why he's "anti-planning" these days, and what it really takes to align your work with your values.If you've ever felt successful but misaligned, comfortable but restless, this episode offers honest insights about following authentic paths when the safe choice stops feeling safe.Key Themes Explored* The 34th Birthday Moment: How Peter's birthday reflection revealed the gap between external success and internal alignment* Geographic Catalyst: Why moving to Berlin opened new perspectives on authentic living* Anti-Planning Philosophy: How following flow and curiosity can be more effective than rigid goal-setting* Privilege and Responsibility: The complex role of financial security in creative career transitions* Sustainable vs. Scalable: Redefining success metrics from growth to lifestyle alignmentEpisode Timeline & Key Moments* 03:00 - Peter's university journey: switching programs every year and finding startups* 06:15 - The 34th birthday realization and looking ahead 15 years* 09:30 - How Berlin's culture influenced his perspective on authentic living* 16:00 - The transition from tech motivations to food passion* 24:30 - Working in professional kitchens for the first time* 32:15 - Building Kenzie Club and the supper club model* 38:00 - The "smash burger lasagna" innovation and pop-up success* 41:30 - Navigating financial privilege and creative exploration* 46:30 - Advice for examining life assumptions and following authentic pathsGuest InformationPeter Sum - Former startup marketing leader turned chef and food entrepreneur* 15 years in tech startups, helping companies grow from pre-seed to Series B* Currently runs Kenzy Club, hosting intimate supper clubs and pop-ups in Berlin* Culinary school graduate from ItalyKey Takeaways* Career misalignment often manifests as inability to "fully bring yourself" to work* Geographic change can unlock new perspectives on what's possible* Following curiosity and energy can be more effective than rigid planning* Financial privilege creates both opportunity and responsibility in career transitions* Success metrics can shift from external validation to internal alignment* Regular assumption examination is essential for authentic livingConnect with Peter* Kenzie Club Instagram* Peter on Linkedin* Peter on InstagramThanks for reading Final Final! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit copyoffinalfinal.substack.com

Show OverviewDesigner, dad, and creative director Chris Conley shares his unconventional journey from Apple retail to co-founding Thread, a multi-disciplinary creative studio in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. This conversation explores the reality of creative career pivots, the challenges of transitioning from maker to manager, and building sustainable creative businesses rooted in authentic relationships.Key TakeawaysCareer transitions are rarely linear: Chris's path from Apple retail to music production to design school to agency work to co-founding Thread demonstrates how creative careers often evolve through unexpected opportunities and relationshipsEducation as confidence building: Design school provided Chris not just technical skills, but the confidence and critical thinking needed to defend creative work and build client relationshipsPartnership dynamics matter: The complementary skills and personalities between Chris (extroverted, relationship-focused) and co-founder Zach (introverted, operations-focused) create a balanced leadership foundationSmall studio realities: Creative directors at small studios wear multiple hats daily - from account management to sales to actual creative workWork-life ballast vs. balance: Rather than seeking perfect work-life balance, embracing seasonal intensity allows for both focused work periods and genuine restEpisode Highlights & Timestamps[7:30] First paid creative project: $100 logo and website for sister-in-law's wedding photography business[12:45] Moving from Knoxville to Lancaster, PA for family - and accidentally falling in love with the city[18:30] Going back to design school at 27 with a newborn - the reality of 100-hour weeks[28:15] Why Chris chose local community college over prestigious design schools[34:30] The transition from freelancing to joining Thread as co-founder[41:15] Honest take on the "creative director" title and wearing multiple hats in small business[49:30] Thread's profit-sharing model and why equity "means nothing and everything"Guest InformationChris Conley Co-Founder & Creative Director, Thread Location: Lancaster, Pennsylvania Website: madebythread.com LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/madebyconley This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit copyoffinalfinal.substack.com

Show NotesWhat if I told you that one of the most talented designers I know has a pre-presentation ritual that involves brushing his teeth?Not for hygiene reasons (well, not only for hygiene). But as a way to feel prepared, present, and ready to unveil work he's poured himself into.Meet Jose Ocando—a staff brand designer at Webflow who calls himself a "failed copywriter." After working with him for nearly five years, I can tell you he's anything but failed. He's the kind of designer who'll spend five hours perfecting a single button interaction, not because he's obsessive, but because he understands that luxury lives in the details people feel but can't name.Jose was my first guest on Final Final, and our conversation revealed the beautifully neurotic world of creative work—the weird habits, unexpected inspirations, and honest truths about what it takes to make something great.Highlights* Literature as Design Foundation: How Jose's English degree and love of storytelling inform his approach to visual design through metaphor and narrative* Data as Collaborator: Why treating analytics as a team member rather than a manager leads to better creative decisions* Expressive Minimalism: Jose's evolved design philosophy that balances restraint with personality* The Award Paradox: Honest insights about seeking recognition in the design industry and what drives creative excellence* Neurotic Habits That Work: The surprising rituals that help creatives perform their best work* Agency vs In-House: How moving from agency to in-house design changes collaboration, process, and creative approachMeet JoseJose Ocando is a staff brand designer at Webflow with 12 years of experience in the design industry. Previously, he worked at Whiteboard creative agency and Aspect, where he led award-winning projects including the Webby-nominated Whiteboard website and the award-winning Aura site. Jose brings a unique perspective to design through his background in literature and his philosophy of "expressive minimalism."Timestamps* 00:45 - Jose's background and the "failed copywriter" origin story* 01:58 - How literature informs design through metaphor and narrative* 03:06 - Finding inspiration from other makers and craftspeople* 05:12 - The difference between early career input needs vs. senior motivation* 07:24 - Looking back at award-winning work with fresh perspective* 10:44 - The honest truth about seeking awards in design* 14:43 - Agency vs in-house: How the creative process changes* 18:31 - Data as collaborator: The tab component revelation* 22:44 - Long-haul team collaboration strategies* 24:22 - Neurotic habits: The teeth-brushing pre-presentation ritual* 26:23 - Creative flow state techniques and rituals* 30:00 - The five-hour button: Investing in micro-interactions* 31:16 - The bedtime screenshot review habit* 32:40 - Putting design intuition into words* 35:51 - Future fears and excitement about design leadershipResources Mentioned* "The Covenant of Water" by Abraham Varghese - Book that inspired Jose's creative energy* My Mechanics YouTube Channel - Restoration videos that inspire craftsmanship approach* Radiohead - Specific songs for development focus sessions* Chris Do/The Futur - Teaching philosophy about articulating design decisions* RISD - Referenced in context of design education and critiqueFinal Final is presented by Whiteboard, the leading creative partner for visionary leaders and brands. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit copyoffinalfinal.substack.com