EP 185 Can You Work With a Surrogate Without Going Through An Agency? | Eloise Drane

Dr. Catherine Clinton, a licensed naturopathic physician, has spent over 16 years helping people overcome their health issues. Diagnosed with two autoimmune conditions and Lyme disease while in medical school, she began the long and difficult journey of healing- a path that led to the commitment to help others to not only heal physically but to return to the relationships we evolved over millennia with for a deeper sense of health and belonging. By healing herself and patients like her, she discovered that true health comes from our relationships. Dr. Catherine has learned how our quantum biological system is intimately and inseparably connected to the world around us. Our relationship with the dirt beneath our feet, the sun, the wind, the water, the plants, the seasons, each other- that is the real medicine. Her mission is to empower as many people as she can with this knowledge to encourage the paradigm shift we so desperately need.   Website & Social media links (Facebook, instagram, twitter):   Instagram: @dr.catherineclinton   Facebook: www.dr.catherineclintonnd   YouTube @dr.catherineclinton   Website: www.drcatherineclinton.com   The Way of Fertility is here! Be sure to check it out here www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript: Michelle (00:01) Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Clinton. Catherine (00:04) Thank you so much for having me. I know we've been trying to get together to do this for a while and I'm just really excited to talk with you today. Michelle (00:14) I am so excited. I've been actually looking forward to this call for like a while just because I found you on Instagram and I was like, oh my God, this lady gets it. Like your work is so fascinating to me. I'm really into quantum physics in general. And then I'm like quantum biology, like the whole idea and just there's so many things that we're uncovering. It's kind of like the future of medicine. But also, I feel like you're very intuitive in your work. I feel like you're sort of channeling a lot of really fascinating intelligence through your work. So, yeah, that was my initial thing when I started looking at your work and the things that you're posting and sharing. And I would love it if you can share your background and how you got into this field and also how you got into it in the way that you're getting into it.   Catherine (01:10) Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, it definitely feels like I've been talking about this for years and now the energy around it is just like so much momentum, right? It kind of used to feel like I was talking in an empty room, sort of talking to myself, right? And what happened was I was in naturopathic medical school. I was in my second year and it was that initiation year where... they really want to weed people out, right? So it's like, get there at 7 a .m. If you're a couple minutes late, you can't sign the attendance sheet. You have to wait another year to take the class, you know, that kind of like med school initiation, really long clinic hours. And it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. And I was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis and Hashimoto's thyroiditis, two autoimmune conditions and I was diagnosed with Lyme disease. So I just was like spiraling with my health. And that's when, you know, I was in a great place to put my physical body back together, put the pieces back together. I was in naturopathic medical school. I was across the river from an acupuncture school. I was just down the hill from a very progressive, allopathic teaching hospital. And so I had so many tools to work with, but for anybody who's had a chronic illness, getting back to that, you know, productive member of society state, while wonderful to go from debilitated to being able to participate again is absolutely incredible. It still is missing a huge piece of health and vitality. And I was really struggling even after I put...the physical pieces back together, so to speak. And that's when my physician, my physician and also the one I was doing rotations, clinical rotations underneath, said you should really look at psycho neuroimmunology. And that's just a big word for how our thoughts and emotions impact our health and our biological function. And at the time I was researching mitochondrial health because I was like, oh, this is the latest, greatest, newest thing. You know, this was almost, 20 years ago, and I read an article by Martin Picard about how our mitochondria are impacted by our emotions and our state of our thoughts, our internal dialogue. And I was like, oh my goodness, this just kind of blew me out of the water and opened up the doors to quantum biology. And then I started actually reading. I discovered the early... quantum biology research from Greg Engel and Graham Fleming about quantum coherence and quantum superposition. And I was just absolutely hooked because in medical school, I was taught like it's still being taught. We're all taught this way that there's a chemical mechanical reason for illness and for health, right? It's all chemicals floating around mechanical parts of our body, that key and receptor lock where the key bumps around and randomly finds its receptor, unlocks the receptor and action can happen. And we now know that, you know, we're trillions and trillions of cells and for the amount of action that happens in a cell, researchers estimated at, you know, hundreds of thousands of tasks each second. Some researchers even say over a million tasks, right? And for that to be random, for that to rely on this bumping around and hoping to find that receptor is just mathematically not feasible, right? And so that's where quantum biology comes in. It gives us this understanding of the subatomic action happening in living systems.   Michelle (05:08) Mm -hmm. Catherine (05:18) that give rise to that chemical mechanical model, which of course that exists, but this idea that it's random, that it's chance, you know, it is just really far from what quantum biology is showing us. It's showing us that there's this intelligence, there's this language happening at the subatomic level, and it seems to be guiding what we see with our eyes, what we see with our symptoms in a doctor's office, on our lab results, right, our blood work. And so it's such an incredible perspective change than what I learned in school.   Michelle (05:56) Oh my God, it's a perspective change for life, like for what we learn in life. I mean, there's so many things like, so many things that came to mind as you were talking about, like one of them, I don't remember where I saw this, but it was something about how, like when you first start learning about science, then you start to become like almost like an atheist. You know, you don't believe in God, but the more you uncover science, it actually brings you back to God. It proves God exists and And you could say God intelligence, whatever you want to call it. But it's basically this intelligence that runs the show of ourselves and tells it where to go and what to do. And there's just so many fascinating things. I mean, I think the biggest mystery is like how does stem cells become what they end up being? How do they differentiate when they all have the same? So the whole idea was like, oh, DNA. Well, they all have the same DNA. What is it about the DNA in the blueprint? that changes the way it expresses and that environment aspect of it. But it's just, it's fascinating.   Catherine (06:57) Yeah, absolutely. It is. It's so fascinating. And I've just been, I've been sort of obsessed for the last couple of years about the fields, right? The electromagnetic fields and how our cells communicate with electromagnetic frequency, right? Just like a language. and we're able like tuning forks to kind of tune into that. And just like a tuning fork, if you strike a tuning fork that is set at a certain frequency and you have another one that's set at the same frequency, it will pick up that tone and it will start singing that same note, right? It's this communication of resonance and frequency between those two tuning forks. Or if you go into like a piano shop and you press one key, like the C key on one piano, all the C keys on all the other pianos will start to ring in harmony with that. It's absolutely amazing. And we know that our cells are communicating with electromagnetic frequency. I mean, Michael Levine has done incredible work showing this electromagnetic   Michelle (07:56) Oh my God, I love that. That's amazing.   Catherine (08:17) language, right? He was doing work with, I think it was salamanders, maybe frogs, I think it was frogs. And he was trying to figure out just what you were talking about. We know how our DNA makes proteins, right? We know that, but we don't know how those proteins, how those cells become an ear or become an arm, right? That we still don't know. And he was mapping out these electromagnetic frequencies that would happen when a frog would grow a leg, right? And so then he took cells and worked with embryos and he would put that same frequency in different parts of the body and that body would grow that arm or grow that face. And he took these amazing pictures where you can see the electrical imprint of like a face or an arm. So this idea that these fields of electricity are guiding, you know, our very anatomy is just absolutely mind blowing. And the fact that we don't acknowledge that, right? It's just like, oh yeah, that happens. You know, we grow an arm. Yeah, we have no idea how, but we're not really interested. It always like floors me that this research isn't more well funded because it really comes down. to the fundamental nature of what it means to be alive on this planet. It's incredible.   Michelle (09:48) It is. And what I find, and especially just being so intrigued by the mind for so many years, and one of the things that I found is that even if there's a false concept, if your mind is so attached to it and that becomes something that you really feel like you've believed in, it's like a death, a little death letting go of that, even if it's false. So people really hold onto it. And that's why there's this medical dogma that happens. And people really hold on to concepts. They have a hard time letting it go. It's like letting a reality shift and it could cause anxiety for people. Like I found that that's like a thing.   Catherine (10:32) Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, that story I told you where the physician I was working under and who was my physician when she was pushing me to look at my emotional reactions, I was like, oh no, don't you have an herb? Don't you have another lifestyle treatment? Or, you know, I did not want to go there. It's hard to change. It's hard to look at things we don't want to look at.   Michelle (10:45) Yeah.   Catherine (10:58) But that's science, right? I mean, that's how we've gained insight into what it means to be human, what it means to be alive on this planet. And if you look at the history of it, it's always disregarded, right? It's always somebody saying, I think it's this, and everyone else saying that new idea is crazy and you're crazy, you know? And so here we are with these,   Michelle (10:58) Yeah. Yes, it's true.   Catherine (11:28) sort of isolated researchers and scientists doing their work, finding incredible discoveries about light and electricity and water and frequency. And we've yet to adopt that on a mainstream model. But I see that it's coming. I'm hopeful.   Michelle (11:48) I think it's coming from the people. That's kind of my thing. It's not a top -down thing. Now, you know, it's funny because a lot of what Dr. Joe Dispenza talks about is that the best kind of organism is it's a bottom -up. It's the group of people, the collective. And so the collective wants it and they're going to make it happen. Catherine (11:50) Mm -hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's how I got into this was looking for a way to be healthy, right? A way to live my life without these day in, day out symptoms and suffering. And so I think everybody is looking for that too. And on another level, people are looking for a better explanation of life. This idea that it's just chaotic and it's random and it's   Michelle (12:22) Yeah. Yes.   Catherine (12:37) indiscriminate and it might strike you down at any moment. It's not a safe place to live, right? That does not bring me a sense of ease. And I think so many of us are looking for a different explanation. I think quantum biology offers that. Michelle (12:43) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Oh my God, I just love, I mean, there's so many things I love about it. And I eventually I'm going to talk to you about like possible books that people can read, or maybe we should just do that now. And then we'll come, come back to some other questions that I have. But what are books for people who don't really know what this is, but it seems intriguing and there's something about it. They're like, Hmm, that really sparks an interest. What books can they read or what, you know, how can they find out more about it?   Catherine (13:21) Absolutely. Well, what we've just been talking about with electricity sort of guiding life, the body electric is just a classic from Robert O. Becker. And that's just a wonderful read, easy to read and just mind blowing. And that I think that electrical charge is really being guided by the water within us and the water lining ourselves. And that has a very,   Michelle (13:31) Bony one. Mm -hmm.   Catherine (13:51) profound negative charge, and that comes from it being a different structure. And so the fourth phase of water by Gerald Pollock is just another hands down, I'm always recommending that. And when it comes to quantum biology and this idea of quantum phenomenon at play in living systems and looking at how electrons and protons, photons of light, phonons from sound kind of guide our biology. Life on the Edge is a wonderful introduction to the science behind this and how that sort of played out in the early 2000s and how it's starting to explain our protein function, our enzymes, how birds migrate over long distances without any landmarks or any previous knowledge, right? The first time they do it, they know exactly where to go via this quantum entanglement with the magnetic field of the earth. And so those three books are sort of a wonderful introduction into what quantum biology is and how it's impacting living systems like our own bodies.   Michelle (15:10) Amazing. And I remember seeing in the Krillian photography, they look at like almost like the it describes the phantom limb where there's some kind of energetic body. And they think that that might be what is causing the cells to differentiate. There's this electric energy. And I don't know if body electric talks about that, but it's kind of like this, this almost, I think it's called a vital body, right? Or the vital body or like a what, what other terms you know?   Catherine (15:40) Yeah, like the subtle body, people call it often. Yes, this energetic blueprint. And that's exactly what the body electric is talking about. And these researchers are actually measuring that field and then using it to regrow limbs and fingers. And they were doing this in animal studies, of course, but we know that this happens with humans as well, right? We can regrow a fingertip or a finger if it's lost, especially under the age of five. And this work was being done with human stem cells as well. And so it's just fascinating. And to start to understand and kind of unravel.   Michelle (16:18) Mm -hmm.   Catherine (16:33) That language of frequency just gives us a whole different perspective of what's happening in our body and in the world around us.   Michelle (16:42) You know, I think about this and I knew this story about under the age of five, you can regrow the tip of a finger. What is it about under the age of five that kids have that we lose after the age of five? That's the question, right? Are we too invested in this material world? Is that what causes us to not have that ability anymore?   Catherine (16:55) Yeah. I think that we, for lack of better terminology, we just sort of leak electricity, right? We lose electrons as we age, but especially in our modern life, right? Like when my kids were young, I could not keep clothes on them. I could not keep shoes on their feet. They were...   Michelle (17:13) Mm -hmm.   Catherine (17:26) outside naked, running around, you know, absorbing all those electrons from the earth and getting that charge from the sun. And they're just really much more vital when it comes to healing, right? Their energetic patterns are just so much different than us as adults. And I think that has to do a lot with...   Michelle (17:28) Yeah, totally.   Catherine (17:53) our modern day life, you know, us adults usually are waking up with an alarm clock. We are feeling groggy. We roll out of bed, have some coffee. We're in a house lit by artificial lights. We are living in temperatures that are artificial and separate us from the seasonal temperature changes. And then we go in the car. with our windows up and then we go in the office and we work all day and we come home and we're like, I deserve to watch Netflix, I'm exhausted. And then we go to bed. So we've completely divorced ourselves from that relationship with the sun and the seasons and the weather and the wind outside and the dirt beneath our feet. All of those things that we evolved over millennia with were really divorced. And what I see in my practice is that,   Michelle (18:18) Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Catherine (18:45) Kids are becoming more and more affected by this. And this epidemic of disease in childhood is something that I did not see when I started practice. It was something that was really unheard of 20 years ago. And now it's commonplace to see a child with chronic skin conditions, autoimmune allergies, mast cell. I mean, all of these things are just,   Michelle (18:48) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Catherine (19:15) so prevalent where they weren't a couple days ago.   Michelle (19:17) Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. I mean, also just even the toxins that we're exposed to, there's just so many things, so many aspects of it. And I go back and forth because there's some things that are so out of our control. And then sometimes I'm like, wait, is what is going on within me impacting what's out? Because that's really what this is all about. It's what the ancients have always brought us back to the internal. And we could fix the external from the internal from like meditating and from really connecting to that divine intelligence. And then if we all do it collectively, as we know, it can actually decrease crime rate because we've seen that, uh, I wonder if that's something that more of us should be at least considering and to bring that connection to that divine intelligence, that intelligence that we are all connected.   Catherine (19:55) Yeah.   Michelle (20:10) that really is within ourselves.   Catherine (20:14) Absolutely, absolutely. I say all the time, you know, we don't end at the barriers of our skin, right? And back to those electromagnetic fields, if we think about it, they sort of go out in this toroidal shape. And so that electromagnetic frequency, energy, information, we emit that and it also mingles with the fields around us, picking up information and energy and bringing that back in.   Michelle (20:20) Yes.   Catherine (20:44) So we are intimately connected with the fields around us and they impact us, right? And you mentioned some beautiful research on this idea that we can change the state of society if we have a different state, right? So like the research looked at a group of seasoned meditators, right? They were... have been doing this for years and years. And they asked them to become coherent in lack of a better term, right? They became very meditative and concentrated on a feeling of peace and love and unity. And we saw this in New York, we saw this in the Middle East, that crime rates and wartime violence. were decreased and the more people that were added to the group, the more those rates declined. And they looked of course for confounding things, right? Is it the heat or is this impacting it? Is that impacting it? And they couldn't explain it. And so it's this beautiful example of what HeartMath Institute talks about all the time, about how coherence in our body.   Michelle (21:46) Amazing.   Catherine (22:05) how when our brain and our heart are coherent, it impacts our biology in a whole different way, right? We're innervated in our frontal lobe, we can make calm, rational decisions that impacts our nervous system, our immune system, our hormonal system. And that coherence, when we have that, can actually impact the people around us, right? And affect their level of coherence, affect their nervous system. It's just...   Michelle (22:31) Yes. Yeah. It is. It really is. And I remember when I first got into meditation, I used to meditate at night. That was like when I did it. And I found that when I meditated at night the next day, people were acting different towards me. And I'm like, is it me? But whenever I meditate, I feel like people are nicer to me, like at work and everything's going easy. And I'm like, I'm almost like, and then, and then of course, when you get more into it, you start to pick up on subtleties that you just are not.   Catherine (22:35) It's just plain blowing.   Michelle (23:01) typically familiar with, and one of them being you feel like you can bend time. That's the whole saying of like, if you have time to meditate, meditate for 20 minutes. If you don't meditate for an hour, you will bend time, like literally.   Catherine (23:16) Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And for those that don't have that experience, I think we might all have the opposite experience, right? Where you wake up and you're tired and you don't wanna get out of bed and you stub your toe and you drop your breakfast and you spill stuff over your work project and just that energy starts to snowball. And it's the same thing in reverse or inverse.   Michelle (23:40) Yes. Catherine (23:45) that you're talking about, right? That energy feeds upon itself and the world around us feeds on that too. It's a really incredible thing to experience. Michelle (23:46) Yes. Yeah, definitely. It's almost like we're part of this mesh. And of course, we're touching that mesh, so our energy will impact it. Catherine (24:06) Absolutely, absolutely.   Michelle (24:09) And I remember you talking about water. So almost like, I forget what the term was, but it was almost like activating water or like not, there's a word for it. It's like increasing the vitality, but it's like charged water.   Catherine (24:27) Yeah, well, when it comes to water, water is just such an underappreciated substance in our world, right? So we have water that we drink, and so water in a glass can become more energized. Some researchers are calling it more coherent or excited, right? But then we also have that water inside of us that I alluded to before. And...Our cells, our cell membranes, our fascia, our DNA, all of these things are hydrophilic, they're water loving. They're not hydrophobic and pushing the water away. Water can come right up to that surface of the cell. And when it does, the interaction between that cell membrane and the water create this structuring of water. And Gerald Pollock, I mentioned his book, The Fourth Phase of Water, was the first to actually identify this under a microscope. And researchers had been theorizing about it for decades, but he was, or over a century really, and he was the first one to actually identify it underneath a microscope, that it is a different phase, a different structure than water that we drink in a glass, right? And we're used to those three phases, right? That solid ice, that steam vapor, and that liquid water. That liquid water can take different forms, and this structured water in our body becomes gel -like, it becomes viscous, and it actually creates, Gerald Pollock proposes, it creates this hexagonal lattice, almost like a honeycomb, right? Of hexagons. And...it becomes structured in a way he describes as H3O2. And if we have any math -minded people out there, you recognize, well, we're missing a hydrogen. And that's exactly what happens. As that structured water builds inside of us, it kicks out a positively charged hydrogen or a proton, and it creates what researchers are calling a proton wire or a proton rich zone. And the separation of charge between the two. The structured water against our cells and tissues is negatively charged and that proton wire is positively charged. And just like a nine volt battery, it creates energy. And this is another thing that Professor Pollack found in the lab. He put an electrode in that negatively charged water and one in the positively charged water and it was enough to light a light bulb, right? So this starts to explain some of that biological action in our body that we couldn't explain before.   Michelle (27:04) Wow.   Catherine (27:12) the ability to communicate almost instantaneously, the ability for our heart and circulation to work the way it does. It just is sort of this incredible understanding that we didn't previously have. And the idea is that this lattice hexagonal structured water as one sheet forms an at acts as a template for more sheets to form. And what's building that? What's creating those layers and building that structured water? Infrared energy, right? So we're right back to your question of why we don't heal as fast as children. Well, we're separated from the biggest source of infrared energy on our earth, right? The sun and movement. creates infrared energy. Snuggling is one of my favorite ways to increase our infrared energy, right? There's many different ways, but there's this water battery inside of us via this different structure of water inside of us. And we see something kind of similar in a glass of drinking water, that there are what researchers are calling coherent domains.   Michelle (28:06) Yeah.   Catherine (28:30) and those coherent domains can have a different charge. And when they go from coherent to incoherent or from excited to a ground state, right, these are all different terms that the research is using, they give off energy that can be used for action, right? Can be used for communication, can draw a molecule in for an interaction. So it's not this random. chaotic world that we live in. It's this beautiful frequency language and water has such a huge role to play in that.   Michelle (29:09) Wow, it's so interesting. And there's this thing where it creates almost a vortex. I've seen those like containers that supposedly they make the water more alive. Now I don't understand the science of that. So do you know anything about that?   Catherine (29:26) Yeah, I mean, there's all kinds of ways that people are structuring, right? So Victor Schauberger was an incredible, I think he was actually a forester who was noticing how rivers flow and that they're never just flowing straight. There's always these eddies and vortexes and that's creating an energetic charge, right? So when you are   Michelle (29:42) Mm. Mm -hmm.   Catherine (29:54) vortexing or stirring or creating that circular motion. You're adding not only that infrared energy, but oxygen to the water, which can create that structure, right? Putting water out in the sun or in the moonlight. That's something that ancient indigenous cultures did all the time, right? We hear about that in the Vedic texts.   Michelle (30:19) Yeah.   Catherine (30:23) in Mayan scriptures and it's something that holds true in this idea of structured water, right? Some people are using electrical conduction. There's a company out there, Viva Water, that is doing amazing research with these coils and using the coils to excite the water and create the structure in the water. And,   Michelle (30:33) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Catherine (30:53) It's really new, but has been talked about for so long and for centuries really, when we look at some of the ancient wisdom out there. And when we look at the new research around it, we find that there is research about how it's beneficial for plant growth and agriculture. It's useful for livestock and animals. And there's also research to show that it's beneficial for humans. And so, Michelle (31:16) Oh, interesting. Amazing. Catherine (31:23) My patients, because I talk about this so much, I get so many questions, right? And my bottom line is there are so many structuring water devices out there, right? And they can get really, really expensive. So what I tell people is if we're hydrated, then we structure the water within us, right? We structure the water with that infrared energy tending to our mitochondrial health. Michelle (31:44) Mmm.   Catherine (31:49) which also create infrared energy, movement, getting out in the sun, safe exposure to the sun. All of those things have the ability to charge that water battery within us. So as long as we're hydrated, as long as we're drinking clean water, with a little bit of mineral content, so that good old osmosis, it can get into our cells and hydrate us, then that's where I really tend to focus.   Michelle (32:11) Mm -hmm.   Catherine (32:16) when it comes to just general blanket statements. Of course, I have done other things and dived a little deeper with different patients and people, but just generally speaking, I think we can get such incredible benefit from just being hydrated and then tending to that so -called water battery in our body.   Michelle (32:41) Fascinating. I mean, I have like a million questions. I have another. So of course I think about messages in the water and how water responds to vibration and it's been measured and visually could be seen in the crystals that occur from certain sounds, music, but also intentions, words. And it's fascinating. And then you think to yourself, well,   Catherine (33:03) Yeah.   Michelle (33:08) we're holding all of that in our body and how is our body responding to all these frequencies. And then I got into sulfegio frequencies and also sound bowls and also mantras that have been done for like so many, thousands of years. And they've been talking about this for a long time and how certain mantras have been shown to make a difference. So those specific seed mantras repeated even just in our minds. compared to random words impacts the body different. So they see that those seed mantras actually have a healing effect, a very calming effect versus they used other words like crick or things that are very like not that way. And it actually causes an adverse effect. So just to show that those specific sounds make a difference.   Catherine (34:01) Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And sound is fascinating, right? It has such a huge effect on us. We know that it structures water. We know that it has so many different effects on us, our nervous system, our vagus nerve, our oxytocin and melatonin. And when we think about it, they're pressure waves, right? They're these pressure waves that are working through a medium and creating these collisions. of molecules. And when that happens, they create light, they create infrared energy. So we kind of come full circle back to, oh my gosh, it's that language again, right? It's that language of frequency again. It's incredible.   Michelle (34:44) It really is incredible. And there was another question that I had quantum entanglement. That's another really cool thing. So this is something that I do. I always talk about this because of course, even when we're separated from something that we've already entangled in, that's like the quantum physics. when we're entangled into something, which means it could be a cell in our body or something that we're connected to somehow, when we get separated from that, the connection doesn't end. You continue having that connection and that impact or relationship where you could almost communicate with that. So they've, I believe you probably know more about this. I think that they took a cell from a liver and like moved it far away and then saw that when they were like, operating on the liver, the cell reacted. So that's like an example of quantum entanglement. So when people go and do IVF, I work with a lot of fertility. So when they do IVF, I tell them, send love to those embryos, those eggs. They are responding. And whether you think it's true or not, just do it anyway, because it doesn't hurt.   Catherine (35:55) Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That idea that our thoughts can have an energetic imprint is absolutely fascinating. And I think it's clear in the research, whether we're talking about water memory with like, Luke Montagnier and this electromagnetic frequency of a cell of DNA being held in the water. being able to record it and actually send it to a lab in another country. And that frequency was played back. I know. And that frequency was played back in that other lab to a glass of water with nucleic acids. And those nucleic acids are like the building block of DNA. And they coalesced and formed almost 98 % identical DNA just with the playing of this frequency.   Michelle (36:28) So fascinating. Wow. What is this? This is a... Okay.   Catherine (36:51) Luke Montagnier, and he's just one of many, what people have termed water memory research, right? But this idea, I think it's pretty clear. We're not 100 % clear on how that's happening, but we are clear that water can act like a mirror, right? It can be imprinted.   Michelle (37:05) Mm -hmm.   Catherine (37:20) it can hold information. And so bringing that into our everyday lives is a beautiful practice, I think. And I agree with what you say, even if it doesn't, even if we figure out that it's actually something else, what a beautiful practice that is, right? To really sort of cultivate.   Michelle (37:35) Heheheheh Mm -hmm.   Catherine (37:45) our relationship with water, with the world around us, with our thoughts.   Michelle (37:51) Yeah. And I think that the reason why we don't optimize our minds and our bodies the way we could is because we just don't believe it with all these emerging studies and the science that's coming out, it's showing us, wow, there's just so much more to us than we originally thought. It's like, oh my God, my mind is blown. Like I love this stuff. I can nerd on this all day long. I really, really love this information, but the water memory makes me think about crystals too.   Catherine (38:25) Yeah. Yeah. Marcel Vogel has done amazing research with not only crystals, but water as well. Right. And so, and all these things we're talking about have a liquid crystal capacity. Right. And that sounds so like, oh my gosh, what is she talking about now with her crystals? Right. But, but this is something that we're very accustomed to. Right. The reason we can talk right now and I can see your beautiful face is because, of these screens, right? Our smartphone, our computer, our TV screens utilize liquid crystal technology. And it just means that it's a mesophase between a liquid and a solid, and it is aligned as a collective. So the molecules are aligned in the same way, in the same orientation. And when an impulse of electricity comes through,   Michelle (38:57) Yeah. Mm -hmm.   Catherine (39:22) they shift in a different way, allowing different light to come in to the screen and show these images, right? The same thing applies to our fascia, our DNA, this water that we're talking about that lines our cells also have a crystalline property. So it's just, it's really mind blowing when you start to see all the different pieces of it.   Michelle (39:49) It truly, really truly is. And then I think about also those crystal water bottles where they have crystals inside the water so that the water can submerge into quartz or rose quartz or many different ones.   Catherine (40:06) Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I'm so grateful that researchers are continuing to research this, even though it is not funded by the powers that be, right? But it's such an incredible insight into life on this planet. And so I'm just really grateful that this work continues and can't wait to see.   Michelle (40:19) Mm -hmm.   Catherine (40:32) what we find next. And I agree that it seems to be this full circle return to what those ancient indigenous cultures always spoke of. So I can't wait to see more.   Michelle (40:44) Oh my God, me too. I definitely second you on that. And then also just for people listening, like if people want to really impact the body through the mind, I mean, you've really given us so many great things. How can we use our intention and like really our thought patterns to impact our cells?   Catherine (41:09) Yeah, absolutely. I think that HeartMath Institute, again, has done amazing work with heart coherence exercises and this idea of creating and feeling a feeling of gratitude or love and bringing that into our heart center and cultivating that feeling of coherence and what that feels like. And I've done this for years and years. I have their professional software to use with patients. I've used it with my family for years. And what happens is after you cultivate this practice, it becomes a feeling you can sink into, right? You don't have to go through this whole exercise and meditation. You can sink into that feeling of coherence. And it's one of my favorite things to do in an incoherent conversation or room or interaction, right? It's just to like, okay, whoa.   Michelle (42:02) Mmm, yeah.   Catherine (42:06) I'm going to get coherent here. I'm going to hope that it brings some coherence to our interaction. Even if it's just me, it's absolutely worth it. So there's lots of coherence exercises on YouTube that are a wonderful place to start. Gratitude practices, just making space for our emotions, even if they aren't gratitude, right? Allowing those emotions to come and and make space for them and allow them to flow through us. All of these things can really rewire that emotional regulation that we have and that those thoughts in our body, right?   Michelle (42:39) Mm -hmm. Yes, definitely. I think keyword regulation, it's all about regulation. It's not about like stopping stress from happening. It's about adapting. So it's kind of like allowing our bodies to do their thing because they're, again, they're charged with this intelligence that they know what to do ultimately when we get quiet and we use these tools. And I think that once you do find that coherence and you feel that coherence, You learn, like you said, you learn how to look for it. It just becomes very intuitive.   Catherine (43:20) Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. It's such a beautiful practice that ripples out to so many different layers of our life. Yeah.   Michelle (43:29) And I will say, I have to mention something because you talked about like when you're in an incoherent situation and you get coherent, that works. Cause I have had incoherent situations or people like from family trigger it and I felt triggered. And I said, you know, instead of reacting, I'm just going to meditate. I'm going to sit with my feelings. I'm going to sit with this energy. And once it did settle, which to me settling is kind of equating to becoming more coherent. things started to really feel more at ease in my body. Interestingly enough, get on conversation again, it was like everything was resolved so easily. It was like effortless. So I was like, this stuff works. And so I started to do that moving on. I was like, instead of being reactive, I'm just going to be proactive and kind of sit with myself.   Catherine (44:20) Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a beautiful practice that has so many different uses and our health is just one of them, right? So, yeah.   Michelle (44:29) Yeah. Yeah, awesome. So, oh my gosh, I mean, I can literally talk to you for hours, but of course we don't have, we are bound by reality time. But if people are hearing this, and I'm sure like everybody's fascinated by this conversation, because it's just, it's just incredible information and you're such a wealth of knowledge, which I so appreciate and love because   Catherine (44:41) you   Michelle (44:55) There's so many things out there that we don't even realize. There's so much research that we don't even know is out there. And to hear that this is actually being looked at is mind blowing. So for people who are interested in either working with you or finding more about you, how can they find you?   Catherine (45:13) Yeah, I'm Dr. Katherine Clinton everywhere. That's my website, Dr. Katherine Clinton. That's where you can find me on social media, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube for longer videos. I just love to share this information because I think it helps point us in a better trajectory than we're currently on. So that's where you can find me.   Michelle (45:34) Yes. Oh, love it. Okay. Dr. Katherine Clinton, this was more amazing than I expected and I was expecting it to be amazing. So I am so thankful that we had this time to talk and I'm so thankful for the work that you do and the information that you are getting out. And this is really amazing. So thank you so much for coming on today.   Catherine (45:58) Oh, thank you so much for having me. I love the work you're doing and it was just a pleasure talking with you today.      

In this episode, I'm going to be talking about five things that could be sabotaging your fertility efforts to conceive. And a lot of these things may not be so obvious to a lot of people,    I will be covering:   Why too much of a good thing isn’t so great for your fertility health (you’ll find out what I mean!) The importance of sleep and how to regulate it if you’re having trouble. Why many fertility disruptors can be hiding in your kitchen and ones that even fooled me! Important times to eat during the day and why!   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   For more information on fertility diet, you can pick up my free fertility diet ebook in the notes. https://www.michelleoravitz.com/fertility-diet   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/   Links mentioned in this episode:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5457858/ https://www.ewg.org https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4350886/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7400274/   [00:00:00] Could these five things be sabotaging your ability to conceive? In this episode, I'm going to be talking about five things that could be sabotaging your fertility efforts to conceive. And a lot of these things may not be so obvious to a lot of people, So stick around.   So number one is over exercise. So while exercise is something that is really good for the body and it can actually improve fertility health. If a person is overweight or if they have not exercised before, it can improve your lymphatic movement, your blood circulation. And increase your overall energy. However, if you over exercise, too much of a good thing is not so good. So while exercise is amazing for the body, in some cases, over exercise has been shown to adversely impact reproductive health. So studies have confirmed that over exercising could [00:01:00] impact menstrual cycle irregularities and ovulation. or, amenorrhea, which is when your period completely stops.   There was one study done where women underwent a really intensive training for military camp. And what they found was that 68 to 98 percent of them who started out to have regular periods, ended up becoming irregular after the training. So what's been observed with over exercise is that it impacts the luteal phase. So it can cause luteal phase defect in the menstrual cycle, which means that the second part of the cycle, which is after ovulation is shorter than it should be. And the reason that is so important not to happen, is because it's a really important time for implantation to occur. And if it's too short, it doesn't allow for that pregnancy to take place. Over exercise can also increase cortisol and cortisol tends to compete with progesterone, [00:02:00] which is why it can impact the luteal phase since progesterone is the main hormone. that increases around the luteal phase. And it's a really important hormone, not only for pregnancy to occur, but also to support pregnancy, they also found that ovulation hormones such as GNRH, FSH and LH, as well as estradiol were suppressed, and that led to an ovulation, which means that they were not ovulating. And that is why over time it can either make the periods irregular or take away the periods altogether.   And as you know, you need to ovulate in order to get pregnant otherwise you're not going to have an egg to fertilize. So that is one of the reasons why overexercising can really impact the body is because it causes a lot of stress on the body. When the body experiences a lot of stress, it also increases cortisol, which is a stress hormone. Cortisol tends to compete with progesterone, which is a really important [00:03:00] hormone, but also the body overall is in a deficit of energy. So this could be also under eating. or over exercising, then it doesn't have enough reserves to ovulate and to have the menstrual cycle or to put it towards reproductive health. And I've talked about this before, is that reproductive health really, in essence, is a reflection of overall health. And in order to have a robust reproductive system, the body has to have enough energy and reserves in order to support it because pregnancy takes a lot of energy. And if it doesn't have enough energy and also enough blood to support it, then it is going to put that off to the side and worry more about survival because it's going to. focus whatever energy it has, if it's at a deficit, it's not going to spend too much. It's going to conserve its spending, which in essence, the spending is towards reproductive health.   It's going to conserve the spending so that it can focus more on overall health. So here's another thing [00:04:00] that I'm going to mention is that really this depends on the person and the body weight. So if somebody , is overweight and has a lot of reserves and energy that's really not being used and has been stored, then they benefit with a higher intensity workout. And even with that, not too much, but they can afford to do that because then their body will increase its energy and also decrease insulin resistance. So it actually can help in certain circumstances to increase it a little bit, nothing overdone, but like a little bit extra exercise in certain cases is important. But for women who have a normal body weight and they over exercise, then that can bring them at a deficit. So you look at it like an energetic bank account. We don't want to decrease that bank account, that reserve of energy, because we need that reserve in order to reproduce. So in order to create new life, you're kind of having an extra, an extra something, it's important that the body's able to support that.   So what is considered too much? So [00:05:00] anything more than seven hours, seven hours or more of aerobic exercise per week and moderate exercise is ideal, which is one to five. Hours per week and one to five hours per week has been shown to improve fertility. So it's important to keep it within a healthy range and not do too much. And nowadays, a lot of the gyms, they do very high intensity workouts and it's not the end of the world. If you like to do that once in a while, however, doing it every single day and sometimes even doing two. different times of exercising or just really overdoing it that can definitely tax the body and when the body feels taxed and There's too much of a deficit.   It starts to feel anxious So the body itself starts to feel like it needs to go into survival mode and what happens cortisol goes high Because it's a stress on the body So yes exercise can be a stress and a deficit of energy can feel like a stress Because then [00:06:00] the body's like, oh what's going on? I need to like, really. Hit the reserves or slow down my energy output and what that equates To is that we can't worry about reproducing right now so typically that is how over exercise can impact the reproductive health so Number two is plastics and i'm sure you've heard about this plastics. Yes. We know that it's not great for the body obviously but a lot of people don't realize that plastics can be hiding out in places that you least expect it. So the obvious ones are plastic bottles, you'll see that everywhere. A lot of people avoid them. You'll see people with glass bottles or stainless steel bottles. And listen, I know this, but sometimes I use plastic bottles when we're away. So all of what I'm saying doesn't have to be done to an extreme. And if it's too stressful, then that causes a whole other chain of events in the body as well. So it's not that you have to [00:07:00] completely avoid it, but for the most part, there are certain things that you really should watch out for. And first things first, did you realize that a lot of sanitary pads Have plastic and that is in the very precious area of your body and you're in there and your blood and you're open when you're having your period, your lining is more open and you're more susceptible to absorbing things when you have your period.   So it's important to find sanitary pads that are using organic cotton or a non toxic. And there are a lot of great. Brands out there. Same thing with tampons. You're sticking 'em up there. And you wanna make sure that it doesn't have any toxins or endocrine disruptors or chemicals that can impact your hormones. Here's another one. This is something that a lot of people don't pay attention to, and it was including me until I found out, and I was shocked when I found out, was tea sachets. And they're so pretty looking. I remember when regular normal [00:08:00] bags of tea it went from something really flat and boring to something that's three dimensional and really pretty and shiny. And guess what? The reason why it's shiny is because it has plastics and that plastic and that sachet can leak out a lot of nano particles of plastics in the hot water. Because as we know, many plastics are not supposed to be microwaved.   Well guess what? The heat itself leaches plastic. So when you put that in really, really hot boiling water, what do you think happens? It gets into your whole tea that you're about to drink. On a similar note, you'll find a lot of coffee makers have plastic. You'll find coffee pods that are plastic, and you're putting it in this hot coffee maker, and they're in a plastic container. And the coffee machine itself, or even like the machine that doesn't have the pods, goes through. Plastic. So it's hot water that goes through plastic. So those are things to pay attention to. Even an electric [00:09:00] tea kettle, a lot of them have plastic on the top. So there are ones that are just made with stainless steel. Those are things to pay attention to. Another thing that is very , commonly used, and I didn't pay attention to this right away.   And I knew this stuff are cutting boards and a lot of cutting boards are made with plastic. So that's a whole other thing. And you're cutting on those boards and you're cutting tiny pieces of plastics and putting them in your food and then taking that and heating it up.   So imagine infusing plastics into your food and why is plastic so bad? it's because plastic is an endocrine disruptor. It has chemicals that disrupt your hormones. And BPA was one of the chemicals and it was focused on a lot. And then they had other plastics, which is a marketing thing. Other plastics where they said BPA free. Why? Because they found out BPA was very much [00:10:00] impacting hormones, but not just hormones, but it also contributed to birth defects. So imagine this is just one that has been discovered, but there's probably a lot more when something leeches into your food, it's just not good.   You don't want anything leeching in your food. You want tools to stay tools and not to eat your tools. So it's important to have. Materials that are not going to leach and that can withstand the heat.   Here's another one. , it's a shocking one because again, this totally bypassed my mind. I never thought about this, but have you ever thought about those disposable coffee cups? Yes, they're made of paper, but what causes that paper not to crumble? And to get wet plastic, so there's a plastic lining that prevents the hot water from degrading the paper cup around it. So that is plastic that is getting exposed to very hot water so this is another thing that most people[00:11:00] don't realize, but it actually does leach out nanoparticles of plastic. And again, the endocrine system in the body is super sensitive and it works like a thermostat where it finds that something. It gets high, it's going to lower its own ability to produce it.   So a lot of times plastic can confuse the body and the body will think it is an estrogen. It's called xenoestrogens and it can cause the body to get confused and that can cause a cascade of events, not so good events that can impact your reproductive system. So what can you do? So I know this sounds overwhelming at first but all you have to do really is just take out some time at first and Eventually, it's gonna be a lot easier once you come up with a plan So take some time look through your kitchen and see what kind of products are possibly leaching or possibly not and to get help with that you can visit ewg. org and I'll have [00:12:00] that in the notes below. And that is a great resource. They look at different products. They look at different, chemicals and they rate products based on. How safe they are and how non toxic they are. So it's a great resource that is easy to get. And there are a lot of other apps out there that you can find as well. I remember think dirty was a great one. You can find, different products and look them up and see what is good and what is not so good.    But EWG is a great resource that you could pretty much look up anything. And they also have EWG certified products that you can find that they have looked into and saw that they were safe and they're safe enough where they are ready to put their stamp behind it. So once you do a little homework. On that, it's going to get a lot easier because then all you do is just reorder certain products and the prices are not that much of a difference and it's just so worth it because ultimately the price for your reproductive [00:13:00] health is higher than anything else.   So, number three, inadequate sleep. It sounds obvious, you know, sleep is important, but people don't realize just how important it is. Besides not being able to function with sleep, there's so many other things that sleep does for you that we don't even realize, especially for our reproductive health and our hormone balance. And it also goes back to that whole energy deficit. It's important to have enough energy for your body. And one of the ways that we restore our energy is through sleep. So the sleep wake cycle or circadian rhythm impacts the menstrual cycle and the ovulatory function. Think of this as a pulse. So it's kind of like a pulse from nature. We get the pulse of lights and then we have our own pulse where we have our own rhythm , of rest and awake.   In the morning, we'll have a rise in cortisol at night. We have a rise of melatonin. And so there's this pulse that happens within our body within our 24 hour clock. And that pulse ripples [00:14:00] into our menstrual cycle and our own internal rhythms.   So sleep is vital for hormone production, but it's also vital for lowering cortisol, because if you don't sleep enough, cortisol rises. And as we know, cortisol likes to compete with progesterone, so it can really impact your menstrual cycle function.  Keep in mind that you want to balance out sleep. So you don't want to sleep too much because sleeping too much isn't great either Sleeping too little isn't great. Anywhere from eight to nine hours of sleep per night is ideal so what can you do? In order to have good sleep hygiene, you want to get some sunlight early in the morning because one of the ways that our brains know night from day is by light. So when you perceive the light during the day, that anchors your circadian rhythm and helps you sleep at night and produce more melatonin at night.   Another thing that you can do is start to dim the lights as it gets closer to evening. So you want to dim the lights a couple of hours before [00:15:00] you go to sleep, or just make them a little lower, nothing too bright. And if you are in front of devices, you can get Something called blue light blockers, which are sunglasses. Well, they're not sunglasses, they're glasses that block out the blue light and they make everything look yellow. And that helps your brain because the blue light actually wakes up your mind and it makes you think that it's daytime. You might also want to have your sleep time routine. So things like diffusing lavender oil giving yourself a little self massage, reading a book, having some warm herbal tea are things you can do to ease yourself into better sleep.   So number four, and I see this a lot in my practice and I never hesitate to let my patients know. I just don't love it. And this is wearing your radiation. I see this with smartwatches or people putting their phones on their bodies so here's the thing when it doesn't have wires, it's got waves.   So the wires help the energy [00:16:00] to move, but then if it doesn't have that, it's got waves and those waves impacts your own energetic body. This isn't good for men or women. Cell phones have been shown to increase radiation and they emit invisible waves that your body does perceive on an energetic level. When they're close to our bodies, we are receiving that wave. We are absorbing those waves. These waves have been shown to influence your sleep, and they've been shown to influence your brain activity as well.   And I will link to that study in the notes. And TCM, traditional Chinese medicine, talks about our bodies and how they run on this vital life force energy So this energy that we have, it responds to our environment, and this is one of the reasons why nature is so beneficial. And when we have a disruption of that, of something that is not really natural and is foreign to the body and the body doesn't really know what to do with it, it disrupts your energetic patterns.  So yes, [00:17:00] technology can make things very convenient, but it comes with a cost, and it's important to protect your natural energetic frequency. So what can you do? So one of the things that I recommend is keep your phone outside of your room.   And if you have it in your room as an alarm clock, turn it on airplane mode. And if you absolutely can't do that for whatever reason, keep it away from your bed as far as you can. Also avoid putting things on your body that are cordless, that run on energetic frequencies, that are invisible.   Another thing that you can do is grounding. So putting your feet on the earth or on a grounding mat can help absorb those energetic frequencies in the body. So it's one way to clear out our body's frequency and also walking outside, being in nature, having that connection with nature and really connecting, even touching trees, because trees are, if you look at them with their roots in, they go into the earth too.   They use that energy that the earth provides. Something else that I [00:18:00] recommend is shungite, it's a type of stone that has a lot of carbon, it's carbon rich, and it's been shown in a study with rats to lower radiation in the body,  and because it's carbon rich, it absorbs and neutralizes the radiation. So lastly, number five, and this is a huge one, is skipping breakfast. So from an Ayurvedic perspective, when the sun comes up. Our bodies are primed to digest, so the sun reflects our internal state of Agni. Our fire increases as it's daytime, so our bodies are primed to eat.   And skipping meals, especially breakfast, which is a very important meal to prep your body so that it has energy for the day. It can increase cortisol as well. So again, this is a third thing that can increase cortisol and cortisol competes with progesterone, a very important hormone for conception.   Skipping breakfast can also lead to weight gain. And there was a study that was done observing college students that were skipping [00:19:00] breakfast and it's been shown that young women that were skipping breakfast had a correlation with menstrual cycle irregularities. I will put that study in the notes as well. So Ayurvedic practices encourage eating during the day and slowing that eating down as the sun goes down.   So during the day, and especially in the afternoon, that is when the body is primed to eat its largest meal. So our own internal acne, which is our digestive fire, is increased by responding to nature's fire, which from 12 to two is the highest when the sun is out.   So unlike what is frequently done with intermittent fasting, which tells you to skip breakfast. And by the way, was mostly studied on men and not women. And. Instead of skipping breakfast to do that, you can actually, if you'd like to fast fast when the sun goes down. So three or four hours before you go to sleep is ideal and it helps you to have better [00:20:00]sleep and it allows your body to rest fully. in that fasting state so that it's not focused so much on digestion, which takes a lot of energy. And then you can focus more on hormone balance and all the benefits that you can get from restorative sleep.   So what should you do? So I often suggest eating a balanced breakfast that includes proteins, healthy fats, healthy carbs, and fiber. So an example can be Eggs and spinach along with an avocado smash on buckwheat toast or full fat yogurt because full fat dairy is better. And has been shown to be healthier for fertility health with berries and granola and nuts and seeds. So there you have it. Those are five things that can possibly be sabotaging your fertility health. For more information that can help you improve and boost your fertility health, be sure to subscribe to this podcast.   Thank you so much for joining me today [00:21:00] and I'll see you next time.

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Dr. Briguglio, a fertility health expert, shares her passion for empowering patients and addressing the challenges of unexplained infertility and overreliance on IVF. She emphasizes the importance of comprehensive testing and addressing root causes to improve fertility health. Dr. Briguglio also discusses the interconnectedness of physical and mental health and the significance of individualized testing in the initial consultation. Additionally, she highlights the importance of iron and ferritin levels and addresses the challenges of vegan diets and cholesterol.   In this conversation, Dr. Samantha Briguglio discusses the role of cholesterol and inflammation in health. She emphasizes that cholesterol is not the villain it is often portrayed to be and that it is needed for hormone production. Dr. Briguglio advocates for a balanced approach to diet and lifestyle, focusing on sleep, diet, and movement. She encourages individuals to find their own natural path to healing and emphasizes the importance of empowering people with information.   Takeaways Comprehensive testing and addressing root causes are crucial for improving fertility health. The physical and mental aspects of health are interconnected, and addressing both is important for fertility. Individualized testing and a holistic approach are key in the initial consultation. Iron and ferritin levels play a significant role in fertility health, and vegan diets may present challenges in obtaining necessary nutrients. Cholesterol is not the villain it is often portrayed to be and is needed for hormone production. Nourishing the liver and eating enough fiber can support healthy cholesterol levels. A balanced approach to diet and lifestyle, focusing on sleep, diet, and movement, is crucial for overall health. Empowering individuals with information allows them to make informed choices about their health.     Dr. Samantha Briguglio is a licensed Naturopathic Medical Doctor and the founder of Walk the Natural Path Hormone Health and Fertility Care.   Dr. Briguglio has a passion for helping women achieve their wellness and/or fertility goals, and she treats – and teaches – her patients from a mindset of natural healing that treats the root cause of their symptoms.   Website: www.walkthenaturalpath.com   Instagram @walkthenaturalpath   Facebook: www.facebook.com/walkthenaturalpath   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Chapters   00:00 Introduction and Passion for Fertility Health 04:09 Passion for Empowering Patients 07:07 Challenges with Unexplained Infertility and Overreliance on IVF 11:03 Importance of Comprehensive Testing and Addressing Root Causes 16:35 Interconnectedness of Physical and Mental Health 24:06 Importance of Iron and Ferritin Levels 25:56 Challenges with Vegan Diets and Cholesterol 26:52 The Role of Cholesterol and Inflammation 30:05 Nourishing the Liver and Eating Fiber 35:03 The Importance of Sleep, Diet, and Movement 37:34 Finding Balance in Diet and Lifestyle 43:20 Empowering People with Information 45:30 The Inspiration Behind Walk the Natural Path   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Brigulio, right? Brigulio is how you pronounce it, or Sammy, right? Awesome. Dr. B, awesome. So first of all, I love your Instagram. I'm going to say that. You guys got to check out her Instagram. It's going to be in the episode notes. I kind of want to lead with that because she has fabulous content, really rich with information and tips.   Samantha Briguglio (00:05) Yes, you did that nicely. Or Dr. Bean. It's easier.   Michelle (00:25) for fertility care and health. And before we get started, I would introduce yourself and also share how you got so passionate in specifically fertility health.   Samantha Briguglio (00:39) Yeah, well, thank you so much. It's really fun to have a platform like Instagram to share all this stuff with and help educate people. But hi, I'm Dr. B. Virgulio, Samantha Virgulio. I actually just got married. So legally, my name, I just changed my name. Thank you so much. It's been really, really fun. But I am keeping Dr. B for business purposes. So you can always remind me, remember that.   Michelle (00:54) Congratulations.   Samantha Briguglio (01:09) I'm Dr. B, so you don't have to worry about any changes. But how I got infertility, I feel like it's kind of a long story, but I'll try to keep it as short as possible because this also has to do with how I got into natural medicine, which actually stemmed from when I was a child. I was pretty sick as a kid. And I was pretty sick.   Long story short, my mom really fought for me and found natural medicine. And I went from being on like oxygen treatments like two to three times a day. Yeah, it was pretty crazy to being a total normal kid who played a bunch of sports and just loved running around and just basically natural medicine changed the trajectory of my life. And so I became super passionate about it. Went to college, was kind of like, eh, I don't wanna go to med school. That looks really hard.   Michelle (01:38) Oh wow.   Samantha Briguglio (02:00) trying to find other avenues, but I always got brought back to natural medicine. I was like, this is just where I'm supposed to be. Actually wanted to go into pediatrics originally and ended up not doing that because I wasn't able to get enough training, like hands on, like one-on-one with kiddos. And I just felt like that was really irresponsible. It's like all of a sudden started a practice where I was working with kids and I didn't feel like ready or trained enough to do that. And...   In my last year of school, I actually found a fertility course. It was like an extra like, I don't know, $600 on top of all the other loans I was taking out. So I was like, oh, this looks fun and interesting. I fell in love. Like I just fell in love. I actually, the person who wrote the course is Dr. Jacqueline Chassie at the time. She just changed her last name. I guess it's a few years now. Seamonton, I think it is. If anyone wants to find her, her courses are great.   Michelle (02:44) Wow.   Samantha Briguglio (02:56) but Hello Fertility is her Instagram actually. But she is an amazing teacher and I went on to join her year-long mentorship in fertility after I graduated, which obviously kind of like changed the course of my life and career. And I just felt so in love with it. Part, I was actually really good at it, right? Like sometimes like you're just good at something or not. And I was like, I don't want to be a jack of all trades anymore. And I just felt like I...   Michelle (03:01) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Briguglio (03:25) my intuition just went very hand in hand with the fertility practices, treatment, and just diving into that and learning more. I loved it, I enjoyed it. And then later on, I'm talking to my mother and my grandmother, and I'm telling them how I'm so drawn to this, and I find out my mom went through her own journey with miscarriages and loss, and then my grandmother, took her 10 years to conceive, I'm like, no wonder I'm drawn to this. I'm supposed to help all these people. My family had this struggle, so like.   Michelle (03:51) Wow.   Samantha Briguglio (03:55) Now I get to help and get back. So kind of a long story. I try to give the most important pieces, but there it is.   Michelle (03:59) That's incredible.   Amazing. No, it's interesting because my mom had secondary infertility with me. tried for a while.   So she had a really hard time. She also thought she was going to lose me at different times, like lost a ton of weight. So it's kind of interesting that you say that. And it's pretty wild because it does kind of hit home.   I don't know, I do believe that subconsciously we can almost feel something in ourselves. There's just certain things that call to us and we just feel like this is it. This is what we're supposed to do. And I totally understand what you're saying. It really, really resonates with me. So that's cool.   Samantha Briguglio (04:38) Yeah, right, you just keep getting pushed down a path where eventually you're like, okay, I'm surrendering, this is what I'm supposed to do. Like that's basically what happened to me.   Michelle (04:48) Amazing. Well, you're so good at it and I can feel the passion. I really can. That's one of the things that I love Instagram. I have to say, I mean, with social media, it's like a blessing and a curse, right? But there's so many amazing things about social media because you're able to connect with people in a different way and get to know people. And people are able to share stories and information. You can get tons of information on Instagram, especially it's really big in the fertility world.   So I feel like there's just so much content, but you can really feel a person's passion and also just drive to learn and provide quality information. And I find that with your account, it's actually one of my favorite accounts, I'll be honest, because it teaches me and this is where I love it. I'm like, when I feel like I'm getting, as a practitioner, I'm learning so much, I'm like, I got to have them on the podcast. I got to pick their brain.   Samantha Briguglio (05:42) You're so sweet. Thank you. I feel like, yeah, no one's ever told me I run short on passion, that's for sure.   Michelle (05:42) For my guests and for me.   Well, it works for you and it works amazing. And so we were talking actually in the pre-talk about certain things that we feel really passionate about. And as practitioner, I find, and I know that you're great because we talked about it, that usually your passion, it's like the P, right? The P, because P for passion and P for pissed off. It's very fine line between the two because   Samantha Briguglio (06:15) R-heh!   Michelle (06:19) The things that we're passionate about, we've also been pissed off about. Meaning, for me, it's like I'm being told that you can't do something. I've always had that even in my life. I'm like, no, screw you. I can do it. Don't tell me I can't. I feel that passion with my patients. When people tell them they can't, and then I see that they can, and I'm like, I can't   why are you telling them they cannot do it? I don't like that. It pisses me off, but I feel very passionate about empowering. So you feel like that too. We talked about a couple of things. So I'll let you have the mic.   Samantha Briguglio (06:57) Yeah, yeah, we talked about two main things, right? I think the first one was the unexplained infertility. That diagnosis drives me nuts. Because I probably said a couple bold things about it on Instagram before, and one of them that I felt like it was lazy medicine. And I feel like that seems harsh, but it's kind of the reality of it, right? Because I'm like, you're being lazy. You're not doing any more tests, you're not trying to figure out like what could be this underlying cause, you're just saying like, oh, the things that are obvious are all good. So we don't know there's it's unexplained. And so that drives me nuts.   Michelle (07:35) It feels like you're putting it back on the patient. That's what it feels like. It feels like, oh, well, we don't know. So here you go.   Samantha Briguglio (07:41) Yeah, 100%. And then, you know, leading to the other thing that we kind of talked about is that then it's like, okay, well, we don't know, so IVF is your only answer. That drives me nuts. I think IVF is amazing. I think it has a time and a place. I think it has helped a lot of families, especially with, you know, certain diagnosis, especially anatomical ones, but like to be like you have unexplained, let's do IVF, or, you know, we haven't even pulled your progesterone yet, but we don't know what else is wrong. So like, let's just go to IVF. Like it just...   Yeah, talk about getting heated and passionate, which just drives me insane, because I feel like it's unfair and you're not doing your duty to your patients and it's at the end of the day, kind of lazy. Yeah.   Michelle (08:22) Yeah. And I'll tell you, um, I feel like there's this common misconception. I feel like that it's almost, I almost want to say it's due to marketing because we have been conditioned to believe that if we pay an arm and a leg for something, it's a guarantee that we're going to get the best of the best. And I think that that's what it is. People think that it's a guarantee to go through the IVF process. And I've actually found, and again, same as you, I completely agree.   Samantha Briguglio (08:39) Yeah.   Michelle (08:52) that IVF's incredible. It's an amazing thing to have. It's amazing. The technology's beyond. I remember going and doing acupuncture for a transfer, and every time I go, I'm beside myself on the incredible opportunity that so many couples have. So 100%, yes, for that. However, in some cases, I've actually found that my patients have had many failed IVFs.   retrievals and transfers. And then they went on and did better getting pregnant naturally at an older age in their forties. So like that kind of, it challenges that whole idea or mindset that it's a guarantee and it's like the only option for some people. So I'd love to get your thoughts on that.   Samantha Briguglio (09:40) Oh yeah, I've had many patients that have tried multiple IVF things like three to four even, and come back and get pregnant naturally. IUI same thing, a lot of IUIs and then they'll get pregnant naturally. And they're like, I don't really get it. I'm like, it's because we had to treat the root cause. Like one of them that really stands out in my mind is that they had actually got health issues and everyone was like, their hormones looked actually pretty decent. Even their A quality wasn't bad, but their gut was like not okay. Like   not okay at all. Like diarrhea episodes daily, which is that's, that's not a healthy gut. And I was like, Oh my gosh, what? And so we treated and we treated for a little bit and they started to heal and started to feel better. And then all of a sudden, like a couple months later, like boom, pregnant and healthy pregnancy. And I just tell, like, it's just a testament to like, the reproductive system can be fine. But if something like your thyroid or your   Michelle (10:10) Mm-hmm.   Oh wow.   Samantha Briguglio (10:40) your other systems that we have that make our whole body, right, is impacted. That can cause issues. Your body sometimes doesn't want to, you know, carry another life if everything isn't okay.   Michelle (10:54) Yeah, totally. And so you mentioned actually a really important one, gut health. Western medicine is amazing in what they're amazing. You know, everybody has their own toolbox and like things or specialties. And so that's not something that's typically looked at or like, you know, tested. They'll do like, they'll look at like ultrasound, they'll look at like   Samantha Briguglio (11:09) Mm-hmm.   Michelle (11:14) the tubes, they'll look at like the anatomical, they'll do the blood work, the hormones.   And obviously, when they come to you, it's a whole other detail of testing. So let's talk about some of the things that are often missed in conventional medicine that you look at that they may not know about.   Samantha Briguglio (11:36) Yeah, I'll definitely talk to that. I do also wanna say like some things are also best in combination. So I love natural medicine and I think it can do amazing things, but a lot of times also like a combination of like conventional and natural is also really amazing. I've won, like for example, endometriosis patient that it's been really beneficial for them to have both, right? They have like the laparoscopic surgery done and now we're working on inflammation and reducing all these other things, but.   Michelle (12:02) Right.   Samantha Briguglio (12:05) they're feeling so much better. So like I said, I can get heated about some things, but I also am very appreciative of all forms of medicine. It's just like, we all, we just have to stay in our lane and also know that it's okay if there's, if someone's taking from all different types. If anything, that's good, right?   Michelle (12:14) Yeah.   Yes. I always say like a team, a well-rounded team with all their different strengths.   Samantha Briguglio (12:32) Exactly. So I just wanted to say that too. But when it comes to things that I look at that are going to be different, I mean, who I feel like the list can be kind of long, actually. I mean, I asked from everything like, what are your bowel habits or your bowel movements to your, you know, what's your gum health like, do your gums bleed a lot to, you know, do you have headaches, musculoskeletal pain, we focus a ton on stress. And it's not like the type where it's like, oh, you're stressed, like, just don't stress, right? No, we like figure out like,   root cause of that stress. And if that root cause needs to be explored more, it's like, okay, do we bring another person onto this team? Obviously we focus on a ton of diet and lifestyle habits. I just ask about them. And then we talk about what we can improve versus what we don't need to improve. Thyroid health, like I said, the list can kind of go on and on, but it can be from anywhere from like your daily habits to environmental exposure, you know, a job at the workplace. I actually see a lot of blue collar men.   Michelle (13:14) Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (13:32) I find that to be very common, either blue collar or very like high stress jobs are a lot of men that I see for like sperm count and quality. And you know, like I said, I feel like the list could go on and on. There's always kind of something and I kind of say there's like the most obvious things, which to me are like diet and lifestyle, gut health, like thyroid health. And then there's like the small things like anti sperm antibodies and you know, like an immune flare or   Michelle (13:48) Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (14:00) you know, skin conditions or, you know, maybe some of the things that seem a little less obvious, like reproductive microbiome. Uh, and there's kind of almost tests for all of this now. It's just also, it can't be really expensive. So like I said, I like to start with like the really big layering things, make sure those are good before I move on to the smaller things.   Michelle (14:12) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, I mean, there's so many things that I definitely want to talk about with what you just said. Like one of the things, you know, it's interesting how people are saying, oh, just stop being stressed. Sometimes you're stressed because your body's stressed. Like if your body or your gut's off, it's going to impact your mind. Well, in Chinese medicine, we learn about how everything's so interconnected. So like how your body feels if your body's not getting the nutrients it needs, it's going to feel stressed. I mean, have you ever felt hangry? You know that like impacts.   Samantha Briguglio (14:41) Yeah.   Michelle (14:50) immediately or if you're not getting enough sleep, if you're not getting good sleep, that's going to impact your stress levels. So it's so intricately connected. And when you have that calm, or even your gut health is better, your mind starts to feel better as well.   Samantha Briguglio (15:06) Yeah, I love that analogy of have you ever felt a hangry? I think that's so perfect. I haven't heard it, but that's so good. Like, yeah. Like sometimes if you're not, no, you don't even know sometimes you're not even not feeling good, but it could be manifesting as an emotional response or something. I know I was feeling a little extra stressed out and I myself did a gut health test on myself and I was like, whoa. Like honestly, I would expect more physical symptoms, but I think mine were manifesting a little bit different. And I'm like, wow.   Michelle (15:14) It's like perfect example, right?   Right. Well, that is such a good point that you bring up because I think that, like for example, my patients who are sensitive to gluten, they end up feeling really well after removing gluten, but not for the reasons they think. Like they say, if I eat bread, I'm fine. I don't feel bloated or anything like that. But with food sensitivities, it doesn't necessarily have to show up as digestive discomfort.   Samantha Briguglio (15:49) Yeah.   100%.   Michelle (16:01) And I think that that's like, you know, so that's like one example of how things can impact you, you don't even realize that you could have something and that has nothing to, like, you're not going to feel it directly as that. It could show up as headaches or low energy. It could be so many things.   Samantha Briguglio (16:17) Yeah, brain fog, anxiety, joint pain. Joint pain's a big one that everyone just brushes off as like musculoskeletal issue. And I'm like, no, that's like an inflammation issue, right? Like, why are you? Like, so yeah, no, I, for sure.   Michelle (16:24) Right.   Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. So how do you figure out like where you start with the testing? Like when you first see people, I mean, I'm sure it has to do with a lot of what they'll tell you.   Samantha Briguglio (16:42) Yeah, so, you know, initially, depending if I have like a single visit or I see a fertility for two. So I see, you know, people individually, but I see the couple together, which also I think super important. I feel like one person always seems to get ignored. Like there's never like, let's treat both. It's like, oh, there's a abnormal semen analysis. Let's treat the guy. And then like the female side's forgotten. Or, oh, so this person has endometriosis. Let's make sure we focus on that. And then to see the male sides.   Michelle (16:53) Yeah, that is.   Samantha Briguglio (17:10) forgotten. So it's like, I really like the fact that fertility for two. Honestly, it's mostly for affordability that I do the fertility for one just because if we can try to do something, but I always think, you know, treating both is the best. But when it goes, sorry, back to your question. So when I see people as either 60 or 90 minute visit, depending if it's one or two, and we ask   I mean, I ask a lot of questions. First, I just kind of give them the floor. I'm like, share your story with me. Like, tell me, right? I think intuition's so important. And a lot of times, like couples end up telling me what I need to hear in that first part, because they're just, they don't even know it's like this most important thing, but I'm like, whoa, like that was huge. Like, okay, writing that down. Then I ask a lot of questions that like, will branch off of what they share with me. And then we dive into, you know, family history, their own history.   Michelle (17:53) Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (18:05) you know, general review of systems, which basically means checking in with every, from like head to toe, every single system of the body. And we have them answer questions like, are you bloated? Yes or no, right? On the female side of things, definitely diving into the menstrual cycle, like a full dive in. Usually it takes us like, sometimes 15 to 20 minutes just to talk about the cycle, which probably seems like a lot, but like, no, I ask a lot. I ask like questions from like, what size are your clots to   Michelle (18:27) Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (18:34) how many tampons do you fill to tell me about all of your symptoms and like the timeline that you have them within your cycle. So we really take a deep dive into that. Um, and then, you know, from there I kind of compile, like all their symptoms, come up with the ideas for the labs that I want to draw. And then based off symptoms and labs, we form a treatment plan. Um, based off all of that.   Michelle (19:00) Are there some common labs that you usually, almost for everybody use, or one test that you typically feel like everybody should take? I know it's kind of like a one-size-fits-all, but...   Samantha Briguglio (19:12) Yeah, you know, no, for sure. Right? Yeah. Like, I know what you're trying to say. You're like, I know it's individualized, but what are labs that are for everyone? Yeah. So yes, and I tell a lot of people that right, because I'm like, you can go get all these basic labs, but I might be asking for you to get other labs based off what you tell me. So just be prepared to go twice. So a lot of time, they just have people wait to come get labs. So they're not going back and forth. Because that takes time. And I'm like, I'm like the person that like, I just want to do all at once.   Michelle (19:18) Yes.   Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (19:41) Um, but there's going to be the classic, the day three of your cycle. So third day of bleeding and then seven days after a predicted ovulation labs, the day three ones are going to be like the estradiol, the FSH, the LH, the seven days after ovulation would be progesterone. Um, usually with like the day three lab, I also order, um, like a CBC, a CMP. So that's like your, your blood counts looking at red blood cells, white blood cells, the CMP is kind of looking at kidney, kidney liver.   Michelle (19:41) Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (20:09) and then like lipid panel looking at like cholesterol. So just like those basics are always really nice. I do, I used to wait to order insulin, but now I'm just starting to do it more for everyone just because there's just been, like it's really hard to guesstimate who's gonna be having elevated insulin because I've ordered it on some people that I'm like, I just feel like I need to order it. And then it comes back super high. I'm like, okay, they are not a typical candidate for insulin.   Michelle (20:21) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Samantha Briguglio (20:36) But like I ordered it and they have like an insulin of 24, which is like way over my range of what I like to see it in, right? So I kind of started doing that one a lot. Obviously a thyroid focusing on like the TSH, free T4, free T3, thyroid antibodies. And then another one I actually also really like, vitamin D, cause that can be in relation to like miscarriage and loss. So just making sure that's elevated in general.   Michelle (20:37) Bye.   Yes.   Samantha Briguglio (21:06) I do an AMH if they haven't gotten one done. That one, obviously I wouldn't get for guides too, but so far all the other ones that I've listed can also be for men. And then another one that I think I would do for a lot of people would also be ferritin. So ferritin is a lot lower in a lot of people now. It's the storage form of iron. It's something that...   Michelle (21:24) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Samantha Briguglio (21:32) the more research I've done, the more I'm seeing that, they always talk about iron being too low and can cause like a bunch of issues in pregnancy and then also to try to conceive, but people forget that ferritin is a storage form and if it's lower, usually that means that we are actually low, we're giving all our storage to like the active form. And so we wanna make sure that's elevated enough and there's a lot that can go into that, but that's been another one that I've been   Michelle (21:56) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Briguglio (22:01) doing a lot of research on lately and most people, it comes back super low. So it's just kind of where I just started doing it. I used to only do it. Yeah, they ignore all the time. And it's something that I would only do for those who had like a heavy menstrual cycle or history of endometriosis or like a gut health issue where they had problems of absorption. But now I'm just like starting to do it more often for everyone because.   Michelle (22:06) Oh, interesting. It's actually something that a lot of people ignore. They like totally overlook.   Samantha Briguglio (22:24) Again, it's like most, a lot of people are having it super low. So I'm like, okay. And with ferritin though, then you have to go into, sorry, I'm like totally like going on a rant here, but I'm like, I have to finish it out. Yeah. Well, but I'm like with ferritin it's nice too, because first you can treat it with like iron and like vitamin C, right? Like see if that's, that's the culprit. And then you test it and if it's gone up, usually that is the issue, but it can also be due to like   Michelle (22:34) Oh no, I do the same thing. That's how I always think. I go everywhere.   Samantha Briguglio (22:52) Like low ferritin can be due to chronic inflammation or an underlying like disease or like virus or bacteria in your system that you need to figure out to treat. And so sometimes I'll just do the iron first and then we can go to the other piece if we, if it's not working, cause that means that there's definitely something else going on.   Michelle (22:57) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, I mean, interesting, you know, talking about iron. What I find interesting about it, and I remember like listening to a podcast and they talked about how it's better to have things like beef liver, like through foods, because it has a well-rounded combination of nutrients that helps iron absorb better versus when you're just taking iron and sometimes the body doesn't know what to do with it. And it just kind of, it almost gets toxic, the amount of iron because it's not.   Samantha Briguglio (23:40) Yes, yes, it's totally can.   Michelle (23:42) Yeah, so let's talk about that because I think it's really important to talk about because people might be like, oh, you know, if that's what it is, let me just take iron. But like, that's not always the solution.   Samantha Briguglio (23:53) No, you're totally right. I mean, obviously like a beef liver on eating more meat cooking with a cast iron pan There's the good old fat. There's the good old fashion iron fish like there's so many different things you can do um some people Usually I give iron to people who have a hard time incorporating like meat or have a hard time cooking like it's very individualized Right, like it's you kind of have to meet the patient where they're at um, but things that I will recommend for iron and   Michelle (24:00) Right, yeah.   Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (24:20) Just clarification, this is not medical advice. This is just things I like to do in my practice. But I like to do actually, there's a lot of studies on dosing iron every other day actually is helpful for absorption, pairing it with vitamin C. So that either means like eating an orange or getting a supplement that has vitamin C in it or taking vitamin C with the iron. That's gonna, and those things make a big difference, right? So they sound little.   Michelle (24:24) Yeah, yes.   Samantha Briguglio (24:49) A lot of people worry about constipation with iron and that's where they're like, oh, that can be an issue too. So if you just eat it, it'll be better. Eating it's always gonna be better. I'll never take away from that. But just cause we're also on the side of supplementation, there's different forms of iron. And I like an iron bisglycinate form that's actually absorbed a little bit easier and usually doesn't cause constipation. I say usually because I had to get a constipation one time. I was shocked, but it did.   Michelle (25:14) Mm hmm.   Okay. Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (25:17) And so that's where I'm like, let's just really focus on like cooking with the cast iron and iron fish and like the, let's have, let's eat meat, right? Like, let's try, I mean, the leafy greens, people talk about that all the time. They can be helpful, but they're not digested. They're just, they don't, they're not in our body. Yeah. It's not the same.   Michelle (25:26) Yeah.   It's not the same.   And then on the other hand too, like, I mean, I have like one patient that...   Her doctor said, stay away from eggs, stay away from red meat, because your cholesterol is high. So I wanted to talk to you about that, because I know that there's like this school of thought that just avoid all the things that have cholesterol and you'll be good. Or why is the cholesterol in there in the first place? Could it be covering up an underlying inflammation? Because in Ayurvedic medicine, they talk about like, vata pitta kafa, I don't know if you're familiar with like the different elements.   Samantha Briguglio (26:04) Oh yeah, oh yeah.   Michelle (26:06) Yeah, yeah. So when something gets really inflamed, they say kafa, which is a little bit more of that moist, heavy substance, comes over to protect. So the same thing with amyloid, with Alzheimer's possibly. Is it because, does it come in to protect something? It's like this coating, same thing with cholesterol. So does that come in to coat the walls because there's inflammation?   Samantha Briguglio (26:33) So I feel like I have to answer a couple other things before I answer that question. One of the things is I don't think cholesterol is the villain that it used to be. So there's a lot of studies that say like, more cholesterol is better than not enough cholesterol. And cholesterol is needed to build, it's a building block for our hormones and things like that.   Michelle (26:47) Mmm.   Samantha Briguglio (26:52) cholesterol is needed. People villainize it so much, but even the bad versus the good, the HDL is the good, the LDL is the bad, we still need LDL cholesterol. These things our body needs. One of the theories, and it's a more recent one, but it's still a few years old now, is that it's not actually the amount of cholesterol that's an issue. It's more related to if there is inflammation or not.   If you're saying, on one end you're like, is the cholesterol being there as like a protective thing for inflammation? Or is cholesterol being that elevated not as terrible as we think it is, but we need to make sure that like the inflammation is monitored and reduced? That's always like a big question. And then another one is like looking at ratios. Like cholesterol ratios are actually the most important thing, right? So,   Okay, we could have elevated, you know, LDL or total cholesterol and triglycerides. But what if we have like an HDL that's like in the eighties or 85 or something? That's to me, if we have a cholesterol that's even like, you know, it seems to be extremely over the limit, but we have this really strong HDL, like maybe it's not as big of an issue as we think it is. Right.   Michelle (28:10) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Briguglio (28:16) Also a lot of times instead of eating things that have less cholesterol, I usually just encourage eating more fiber. So fiber actually binds with cholesterol and then we just poop it out. So like instead of like limiting all these things, I'm like maybe you're just not eating enough fiber. Maybe it's the other thing. Maybe it's not that you're eating too much of something. Maybe it's a lot. Maybe it could be either a combo or maybe it's you're not eating enough fiber, which most people don't. Right? Because fibers and like veggies and things like that.   Michelle (28:23) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Samantha Briguglio (28:44) So it's like maybe we just need more fiber, nourish the liver a little bit more, and then our cholesterol issue goes away. So sometimes it's kind of a combo. Sometimes yes, it might be accompanied by the inflammation. Maybe is it the chicken or the egg, right? Is it the inflammation that's causing cholesterol or is it cholesterol that's causing more inflammation? At the end of the day, I feel like we truly don't know that answer 100% yet, because different studies keep coming out on it, but.   Michelle (28:44) Right.   Bye.   Bye.   Samantha Briguglio (29:10) Overall, I would say my biggest thing and my biggest recommendations to treating cholesterol are actually by nourishing the liver and eating enough fiber. Obviously, if they have a really bad, high fatty diet with like really bad fats, like unsaturated fats, then that's an earth saturated fat. I'm like, wait a minute. What I said was wrong.   Michelle (29:19) Yeah.   Saturated fence, yeah. You know what it is? We talk too much about this all the time and it's just our brain's like, uh?   Samantha Briguglio (29:39) Yeah, I totally my brain was like, whoopsies, at least I caught it quickly. Whew. Um, you know, basically we do want to limit that limit that, right? But like eliminating the good fats, like avocado and eggs and stuff. Like that's, that's not what we want to do. That was a big rant, but there we go.   Michelle (29:43) You did.   Yeah.   No, I mean, I will say like, you know, when people say I can't have eggs, I can't have the yellow of eggs. I'm such a great food. But then of course, I'm always afraid to say, don't do what your doctor said. Like I will never say that. It's just, you know, so I wanted to get your opinion on it because you hear just so many different opinions on everything that it gets very confusing. And then sometimes the mainstream opinion isn't updated.   Samantha Briguglio (30:09) Right.   Right. No, they say it takes 10 years in medicine from an article coming out to making actual changes. And then by the time that happens, there's a new article that comes out.   Michelle (30:24) I'm finding that like, yeah.   Yes. then of course, you don't want to, again, step on other people's toes and you're like, well, I kind of remember hearing a study that says the opposite of this, you know, and I'm not talking about this specifically, I'm just saying in general. So sometimes, you just get so many different perspectives. But then of course, as a practitioner, you have to be very careful as to what you're   Samantha Briguglio (30:45) Yeah.   Michelle (30:54) suggesting and you don't want to go cross basically somebody's other treatment plan with their practitioner, that kind of thing. So I'm sure you know exactly what I'm talking about.   Samantha Briguglio (31:06) Totally. Yeah. And you know, I also just give patients options. I'm like, we can try this and let's monitor. Let's like do this way for a couple of months and then get your labs drawn and then do this way for a couple of months and get your labs. Like we can, you know, if their cholesterol isn't like in scary high levels, then I'm like, it's like we have room here. There's room. I'm like, how long do you think your cholesterol has been like this? Like we don't have to like change things tomorrow. Like we can just start slowly working on it. Like I said, if it's not in a dangerous place, but   Michelle (31:12) Yes.   Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (31:35) Usually it's not. And so I think the fiber thing is honestly the most underrated thing there is. And then, yeah, and then eliminating the bad fats versus and keeping the good fats. Because the good fats are what keep your HDL high and they're helpful for that really good ratio. So we don't wanna eliminate the good stuff, we wanna eliminate the bad stuff.   Michelle (31:37) Yeah.   That's a good point, yeah.   Right. So the good stuff meaning avocados, salmon, you know, like good. Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (32:06) eggs, nuts, you know. Yeah, that's, yeah, exactly.   Michelle (32:12) very important information. So, foods, I think that that's a huge thing because a lot of, we just don't, we're not conditioned to eat healthy. I just feel like there's a, you know, this quick fix and a lot of processed foods and people don't have the time or the energy to cook.   But that's one thing that I've at least seen that has been a little bit more difficult is really implementing a new way of living because it's so intricately connected to our behavior and it impacts inflammation, it impacts fertility like in so many ways. And then also like certain food additives that can impact gut microbiome, like thickeners,   Samantha Briguglio (32:48) Yeah.   I know and now there's like this thing that where it's like natural and holistic medicine is like kind of trending Like let's just like call it what it is, right? Which is cool because when I first started I would tell people what I do and they have no idea Like no one knew what I was gonna do Yes, it's more mainstream, which is awesome   Michelle (33:02) Mm-hmm.   Yes, we're becoming mainstream.   Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (33:16) But now it's like also been taken to the extreme. So I'm like, oh goodness, now we're like flying on this other side where it's like, oh God, like everyone's eliminating everything and like, it's just been crazy. And so now people come to me and they think I'm like chill. They're like, that's it? I'm like, yeah. And I'm gonna.   Michelle (33:33) Wait, so tell me, tell me, what do you say typically? What are your big things that people should pay attention to and what kind of things should they be a little more lax on?   Samantha Briguglio (33:44) Yeah, so like the thing I'm most strict about is sleep. I will always be like sleep over everything, sleep rules. Sleep is like, you will not, if you wake up early to sleep, your workout, your workout's not gonna be as effective than it would have been if you just like slept a little bit longer and then maybe try to get like a shorter workout in, right? Like it's, things like that, I will always stand by sleep first, always, always. Second, honestly, diet and movement.   Michelle (33:50) Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (34:15) They're kind of linked for me now. It always used to be diet first, then movement, but now there's just so many, like there's so many people going through a lot of like stress and like mental health struggles that, yes, I can help with, but I feel like movement just helps set the tone for so many people's day where it like allows them, they move, it like allows them to like follow up with more healthy habits. So it's like this weird, you know what I'm saying?   Michelle (34:39) Oh, yeah, it's somatic. I mean, yes, because we were talking about how your emotions are very much tied to your body. That's why somatic therapy is so powerful. Probably another step over talk therapy, which is why things like yoga really impact the mind because when you're moving, you're sort of processing emotions and emotional states.   Samantha Briguglio (34:50) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Michelle (35:07) in a different way. And it also helps you cognitively. I mean, there's just, so movements like very underrated.   Samantha Briguglio (35:13) Yeah, well, and they, cause they only, people, I feel like we're only looking at it from like a, what does movement do to your body versus what diet does do to your body, right? And, but we're forgetting like the, oh, if I move and I feel good and I'm happier throughout the day, I'm more likely to like pick the healthier choices and eat the healthier foods than, and get restful sleep and all these other things. So honestly, they're kind of tied for me. Sometimes movement ranges up. I don't know, you know.   Michelle (35:33) True.   Yeah. But I also say if you're getting good sleep, you're going to be less likely to grab that sugary snack. Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (35:50) That's exactly so this is where it's kind of like all of it matters a lot, but that's why sleep is like number one for me um But sleep so like obviously the diet and the movement piece But when it comes to diet, I feel like a lot of people are really strict now There are so many bad foods. Yes, there are so many seed oils and all of that But I feel like now people are going on the other side of getting really stressed out about what they're eating how much they're eating   Michelle (35:56) Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (36:15) you know, making sure they're getting all their nutrients in. Now I'm like, oh God, we've like over-corrected for a lot of people now that are in this wellness space. I'm like, okay, we need to like chill out a little bit. Like not everyone needs to eliminate gluten and dairy. If it bothers you, eliminate it. If you have an issue with it, eliminate it. If you're allergic to it, eliminate it. But like, if you eat it and you feel fine, like let's just not cut out another food, right? You know.   Michelle (36:15) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Samantha Briguglio (36:42) A lot of practitioners believe that like no one should eat that and dairy is super inflammatory. And I'm like, well, yeah, but like quality matters always. If you're getting a good organic dairy, that would be helpful for some people.   Michelle (36:49) It's true. Yeah. Same thing with organic weed because it's not sprayed with glyphosate. I think that that's a big thing too. I mean, I'll be honest, I mean, it's just the world we're living in right now. It's a little bit of an uphill battle, but I agree with you that it can almost manifest, and I've talked about this before, it can almost manifest very similar to an eating disorder.   Samantha Briguglio (37:02) Okay.   Yes.   Michelle (37:15) I mean, because people get so upset and it really impacts them how they're eating. So it's a fine line of having a balanced perspective on food.   Samantha Briguglio (37:27) Yeah, yeah, it's orthorexia that it's literally actually has a technical name now and that means you're so stressed about eating healthy You either like just won't eat at all Which is actually not good for women. They'll say like for men It's actually better to fast than eat the unhealthy thing But for a lot of women it's better to like actually eat the unhealthy thing than to fast for too long fasting still. Okay but that's sorry, that's a whole nother conversation, but um Yeah, so I go from the approach of 80-20 rule   Michelle (37:33) Mm-hmm.   Yes.   Yes.   Samantha Briguglio (37:57) and making it sustainable. So I'll tell my patients like all the time, I'm like, you're not a perfect person. You can't be perfect all the time. And if you're gonna stress about being perfect all the time, that's a whole nother thing we have to deal with. So instead, let's give you freedom to live your life. I go out, I go out and eat french fries, like all the time, I love french fries. Like I guarantee those are not always fried in like olive oil or whatever. They're definitely fried in probably like a seed oil or canola, like I know that, but I love them.   Michelle (38:17) Me too. It's good. Yeah.   Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (38:26) But the rest of the time, you know, I get my movement in, I'm drinking tons of water, I'm sleeping like nightly, like I take care of my mental and emotional health, like I'm doing all these other things that, so when I eat the French fries, it's not that big of a deal. I'm like, yeah. And so that's where I want people to feel free now.   Michelle (38:37) Mm-hmm.   Right, I get, no, I get what you're saying.   Samantha Briguglio (38:50) They can be as careful as they want as long as it doesn't cause like chronic stress. Like if avoiding all of that stuff actually helps you and relieve stress, great. But for majority of people I've seen, it really causes a lot more stress. So I become very picky about a couple of things and then I kind of just say, I'll help you with the other stuff, right? Like eliminating sugar, that's a big one. That one to me is a bigger deal than like the dairy and the gluten, right? So for me, I'll be like, okay, let's eliminate   Michelle (39:12) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Briguglio (39:19) Let's reduce sugar, but I'll give them ways to reduce it. How do we make our own healthy Reese's cup at home? That's not gonna be bad. You can have a couple Reese's cup, honestly a day if you're making them out of organic dark chocolate and organic peanut butter that has only, the only thing is in it is peanuts. I'm not always worried about that then. And they'll be like, oh, okay, I'll make those. I love to cook or I love to bake, great.   Michelle (39:27) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Briguglio (39:49) I'm like, awesome. So like, boom, like that's already helping their sugar habits, right? Talking about pairing foods, like instead of taking away, taking away, taking away, more like add in, right? Like if they really like their smoothie in the morning that has all this stuff in it, they say smoothie is not that great and it's not good on the stomach and all of these things. I know in Chinese medicine, it's actually probably not good at all because they say you wanna start with like warm, right? Like they're like, let's, we want.   Michelle (40:14) But you know, it's funny that you say that because I do tell people the 80-20 rule as well, but I do that with raw. So like if they love their smoothie, fine, but just make it like 20% and that's your 20%. You know, or if you're like, if you're having smoothies and then a ton of salads and then all this raw stuff, fine, then that starts to add up. But I say the same thing.   leave it out for a little bit so that it's not freezing like frozen. Just kind of like let's do this balanced.   Samantha Briguglio (40:44) Yeah, and sometimes I'll be like make it a little bit thicker. So like let's maybe add some oats or some chia seeds or some more veggies to it to add some fiber and then like maybe eat it with a spoon instead. So that's getting those like chewing mechanisms going. We're really just starting our digestive system a little bit more than just drinking something. But you can compromise. Yeah, you can compromise and just add things in. You don't have to like completely take away everything. And I think a lot of people.   Michelle (41:03) Right. That's a good point. You want those enzymes.   Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (41:13) or shocked by that, surprised by it, but they like also kind of love it because it's like, whoa, this is actually doable.   Michelle (41:19) It feels good. It feels safer, first of all. It doesn't feel as pressure filled. And it also is, like I know from a mindset, from a subconscious mind thing, because I studied hypnotherapy, I feel like behavior and like our, what is it that stops us from changing habits? You know, like we all have habits and we repeat,   Samantha Briguglio (41:23) Mm-hmm.   Michelle (41:44) And one of the biggest almost like laws is that you cannot create a vacuum. And that's why it never works to just stop anything. So you have to just substitute. So I love that you said that like intuitively you're almost like realizing that about the mind. If you're giving the mind a substitute or instead of this, then have that, but it's kind of similar and then it's much easier to start a new habit that way.   Samantha Briguglio (41:50) Mm-hmm.   Yep.   Yeah, and you just have to give people kind of a chance instead of saying like, do this, do that. You're just like, okay, let's add, or let's, yeah, like you said, substitute. So, very, I'm also very passionate about that, as you can see.   Michelle (42:22) Hmm. I love that.   Yes. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, these things are important for people to Because once you have this information, you have a lot more empowerment. And I feel like people just don't have that information. everybody deserves to know that. I love this conversation. I mean, I can keep talking to you for hours, but obviously we have like a limit on time.   But I definitely love picking your brain on these things. And I think that you have a really nice balance on how you look at it. So for people who do want to work with you or like learn more about you, how can they find you?   Samantha Briguglio (42:52) Thanks.   Yeah, well, we kind of talked about Instagram earlier. That's a very easy way. Walk the natural path on Instagram. I do have a website. It's also walk the natural path. So anything with that, your odds are you're gonna find me somewhere. So you can reach out, yeah, in DMs. Sometimes I'm a little bit slower. So sometimes I recommend filling out like a new patient form or booking a consultation call with me so you can chat a little bit about like your case and then what I can do to help or if I feel like we're a good fit.   Michelle (43:16) I love it.   So you help people virtually too. I just want to mention that, not just locally. Awesome.   Samantha Briguglio (43:35) Yeah. Yep. Virtually too. Yes.   Michelle (43:40) Also, so what was the inspiration to walk the natural path? Because I see you actually walking many natural paths and hiking, and I think that's so cool because you do a lot of like nature walks.   Samantha Briguglio (43:52) Yes, oh my gosh, such a passion of mine. I honestly like I used to do like one a week for sure I need to get back to it. Since the wedding has been a little crazy. But walk the natural path actually came from the idea of creating an Instagram to help promote natural medicine before it kind of dove into this like mainstream thing, right? And   I don't know, the name just like came to me, which was actually pretty crazy because I feel like I'm not the most creative person. So for that to happen, I was like, oh, this is it. And then it just kind of took off. And then when I switched the Instagram over to my business, it just, I think it just stuck and it was close to my heart. And my name is Dr. Samantha Berguglia, which is very, very long. And I was like, a lot of people just go by like.   Like my bestie is like Dr. Sienna Miller. I'm like, that's so cute, that's short. And that's kind of like what her business is. And she has a different title now, but I just, I decided to go with it and it stuck. And like you said, it's part of who I am. I walked nature trails all the time.   Michelle (44:51) us.   Because I see you walking nature trails, which by the way, that's a whole other topic. But I think that doing that is also really good for our health.   Samantha Briguglio (45:05) Yeah, in our hearts and yes, but I guess really what it's about though is it's saying like I'm walking the natural path to like healing Like at the end of the day, it's like always walking This natural path and natural though can mean anything to anybody, right? So not to get on a whole nother convo, but just to wrap it up it can mean You know the like the actual natural medicine that everyone really thinks about but it's the natural path for you So that could also be like combining   Michelle (45:13) Yeah.   Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (45:35) conventional IVF plus natural medicine. That can be your natural path. So it's what feels natural to you. It's kind of supposed to be interpreted, but yeah.   Michelle (45:47) I love it. Well, that's a great note to end with. And this is an awesome conversation. I'm so glad we finally met. I know we were like DMing each other back and forth on Instagram for a while and following each other. And then I was like, I got to get her on the podcast. I really like the stuff that she's putting out. So thank you so much for coming on here, Dr. B.   Samantha Briguglio (46:07) Aw, thanks for having me. This has been wonderful.  

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack is a certified Fertility Awareness Educator and Holistic Reproductive Health Practitioner who teaches women to chart their menstrual cycles for natural birth control, conception, and monitoring overall health. She is the author of three bestselling books The Fifth Vital Sign, the Fertility Awareness Mastery Charting Workbook, and her most recent book Real Food For Fertility, which she co-authored with Lily Nichols RDN. Lisa works tirelessly to debunk the myth that regular ovulation is only important when you want children by recognizing the menstrual cycle as a vital sign. Drawing heavily from the current scientific literature, Lisa presents an evidence-based approach to help women connect to their fifth vital sign by uncovering the connection between the menstrual cycle, fertility, and overall health. With well over 4 million downloads, her podcast, Fertility Friday, is the #1 source for information about fertility awareness and menstrual cycle health.   Fertility Friday: fertilityfriday.com Real Food For Fertility: realfoodforfertility.com The Fifth Vital Sign: thefifthvitalsignbook.com Instagram: @FertilityFriday Facebook: Facebook.com/FertilityFridays LinkedIn: Lisa Hendrickson-Jack     For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/         Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) So welcome to the podcast, Lisa.   Lisa Jack (00:03) Thanks so much for having me back.   Michelle (00:05) Yes. So having you back again, we had a little mishap, issue with the recording for some reason, but we are on a new recording software. So hopefully this is going to be great and I'm excited to pick your brain again.   Lisa Jack (00:21) Well, I'm happy to be here. I mean we can never anticipate the tax nafus. It's part of online business, I suppose.   Michelle (00:28) Oh, totally. 100%. So we had so many good things too. That's what's really frustrating. We had such a great conversation about so many things. But for people who are first hearing about this, I know that a lot of people think that there's certain textbooks like menstrual cycles, or they have like sort of an idea in their mind of what a perfect menstrual cycle looks like. And since this is...   your absolute specialty and you understand it from like A to Z, can you describe what a healthy menstrual cycle should look like?   Lisa Jack (01:06) Yeah, I mean, that's a great place to start. And just to put it out there when I'm working with clients and practitioners, I always say there's no such thing as a perfect menstrual cycle because you're a human, not a robot. And so when we look at what a healthy menstrual cycle looks like, we should be looking at a range. And basically, what I can lay out is the different parameters that we're looking at. Often when I talk about the menstrual cycle, people's minds will go straight to the period.   Michelle (01:17) Right?   Lisa Jack (01:34) and they'll kind of think, okay, well, what is a healthy period? But then they don't necessarily think about all the other parameters. So when we're looking at what makes a healthy menstrual cycle, we can look at the overall cycle length, which ideally would be somewhere between about 24 and 35 days. We can look at the pre -ovulatory phase in particular. So we can look at the period. So the period is its own category. We want to have a menstrual period that overall is somewhere between three to seven days with an average of about five days.   And I always say the period should be like a sentence. It should have a beginning, a middle, and an end, and then it should be over. So if it's like trailing on for days and days of bleeding, if you're getting bleeding throughout your whole cycle, as opposed to just when you have your period, these are things we should be looking at. And although it's really common to have several days of spotting before you start your actual bleed, it's not optimal. So it's helpful to understand that piece of it. And then in terms of pain,   Michelle (02:08) I love that, that's so good.   Lisa Jack (02:32) It's also extremely common for women to experience menstrual pain. And so there's always this question of like, is it normal or not? And there is debate. So there are definitely people who are more on the like, it's normal kind of, you know, because so many people have it. So it has to be normal. But, you know, outside of your period, pain is thought of as a problem. And so if you thought of any man in your life, anyone, your father, brother, cousin, whoever, friend, boyfriend, if he had pain in his period, in his penis for.   Michelle (03:01) in this period you imagine.   Lisa Jack (03:02) Right? But if he had pain in his penis for two to three days every month, such that he needed to take medication and possibly couldn't go to work if the medication didn't kick in, no one would think that that's okay. So that's also just a bit of an aside where when we look at what's happening during a menstrual bleed, it is a natural inflammatory process by which you shed that lining. And so in order for your uterus to shed that lining, there does have to be some inflammation. And we do have...   prostaglandins that we produce that help to induce those smooth muscle contractions to make this all happen. So what's interesting is that when we look at what the research says, women who have pain, they have a higher level of these prostaglandins. So they have a higher outside of normal inflammatory response. So at very least, pain with menstruation that's moderate to severe is a sign of increased inflammation, something we should be aware of. And at worst, it could be a sign of a more serious condition like endometriosis.   So as an aside, although common, we want to consider moderate to severe pain to be not optimal. And we want to be looking a little bit deeper into that. And for many women, they often need that nudge to do so, especially if they've had pain very consistently from their first period, for example. So outside of the period then, when we move into the actual, like the rest of the pre -ovulatory phase, we want to look at when ovulation is happening.   So in order to have a cycle that falls within that 24 to 35 day range, we do need ovulation to happen typically somewhere between days 10 and days 22 or days 23. So approximately. So we want to be looking at when ovulation is taking place. And as you approach ovulation, you're supposed to be making some healthy cervical fluid. And typically we would expect to see that for about two to seven days leading up to ovulation. So we want to look at the quality of that, how many days you're seeing. Like if you're not seeing any at all, that can be a sign of.   low hormones or an issue with your cervix. If you see it all the time, that can be a sign of something as simple as a yeast infection or something more serious potentially. So it's helpful to even know that that's a thing. And then after ovulation, that period of time, the post -ovulatory phase or luteal phase, as we call it, should be about 12 to 14 days. And so if it's, you know, seven days, that's a problem that could impede your chances of conception. It's a sign of extremely low progesterone. If you have...   moderate to severe PMS symptoms, if you have spotting, as I had mentioned previously before your period. So like interesting, right? Because you asked a pretty simple question, what does a healthy cycle look like? So I think what's good about this, just to kind of pull it back then, is that we're not looking for any one factor to be perfect. Within each of those factors I listed, there's a bit of a range. And so you could potentially have one of those aspects that's a little bit off, but overall, the rest of it is pretty strong.   And so that can help you to understand that you don't need to have a perfect cycle for it to be healthy. We just need to have it for the most part fall into those parameters.   Michelle (05:58) For sure. And I also look at like, you know, as a practitioner, I look at like what's normal for you, because some people have always had a short cycle, but they're normal. Or, you know, it's usually when things become out of whack for you, or it's kind of like not like you're, they almost have like personalities, menstrual cycles, right?   Lisa Jack (06:17) Yes. Well, and I agree with you to a point because I used to be one of those people that was like, my cycles are long and that's normal because my cycles are always long. Right. So when I first started training, so I think there's a balance between understanding what the normal parameters are to make sure you're within them and then understanding what your normal is. And absolutely, when you're used to experiencing ovulation, you know, in a certain range and all of a sudden it's like 20 days later, yes, we need to be looking at that. But.   Michelle (06:27) Mm -hmm.   Right.   Lisa Jack (06:46) because of my own experience and what I've seen with many clients, there's a lot of things that we can experience a lot, like period pain is a good example, or even that pre -evaluatory spotting where we can just tell ourselves, well, I always experience that, that's totally normal, but it might not be. Yes. Yeah.   Michelle (06:58) I'm not talking about abnormal though. I'm talking about within like 26, like say you have a 26 day cycle and that just tends to be your thing. As long as it's not abnormal or within like sort of a more like red alarm position.   Lisa Jack (07:11) Yes. Yes. No, I tend to be I tend to be like, because I because this is what I do, right? Like I'm like lazery. So I'm like, well, the 20 days, 26 day cycle is within the normal range. But you could have a 29 day cycle or a 28 day cycle. That is actually problematic. Like you could let me give you an example. You could have a 28 day cycle where you're ovulating on day 20 with an eight day luteal. Right. So so this is why it's helpful to look at the whole picture.   Michelle (07:29) Right.   Bye.   100%. I think that what you do is very important. And, you know, looking at like the temperature, looking at the cervical mucus, looking at, well, possibly position, but like really understanding it in a way that has a different lens. Because for me, at least, I know that I really appreciate when patients come in and they do their BBT charting. Why? Because I look at the yin and the yang. And if it's too low, that tells me a lot. Usually when,   Lisa Jack (07:55) Yeah.   Michelle (08:09) The luteal phase, which is more of the yang part of the cycle, yang mean more heating. Yin is more cooling and moist. So that's kind of like more of the estrogen aspect of it. And it's pretty wild when you can actually see that. What we learned in textbooks actually being reflected in the menstrual cycle. But when we see that as practitioners and we can really look at it, I really appreciate being able to see that chart because it helps us.   see much more and a lot of other practitioners in the same boat, like they see what I'm talking about. It just helps you to understand it at a different And unfortunately, some people are very resistant to doing it because they say when I do my BBT, and I want to actually address it because I want to see what your thoughts on this. Sometimes people say that if they start to look and like kind of chart their cycle,   that it throws their cycle off and that they get really stressed out. Yeah. So then I'm like, okay, well, you know, what's the balance, you know, of trying it? And I say, just try it out. It's not forever. Like just see what it shows you. And then maybe it'll regulate as you're doing it. And I think that there's this resistance to it. Like they're almost overly focused on it and it stresses them out.   Lisa Jack (09:10) Interesting.   Mm -hmm.   Michelle (09:32) So I wanted to get your thoughts on that.   Lisa Jack (09:35) Yeah, well, I think the couple of things came to mind. So the first thing that came to mind when you said that, like, when I do it, it throws my cycle off. I think that that was interesting. That's interesting because that could be something a bit different. That could be that you thought your cycles were so, you know, perfect. And because people do like people think like my cycles are totally regular. Right. When you're not charting, you're like, yeah, it's always like 20 days. Like, yeah, because this is like how we think. But then as soon as you look at it, it's not it's not no one cycle is 20 days for a year.   I will put money on that. It's just not, if you're actually tracking.   Michelle (10:06) No, no, they still used like an app to track the numbers. So they knew what their numbers were, but they didn't do like the BBT and like a little bit more in depth.   Lisa Jack (10:15) Yep. Well, I guess what I'm, so I guess the thought that I had around that was that when you actually start to look, you see not necessarily that things are wrong, but you just see more of the nuance that you weren't looking for before. And so you may not have been aware of certain nuances that were happening because if you're not tracking it, you wouldn't be aware of those nuances. That was the first thing that came to mind. The second question I think is interesting.   For a couple of reasons. So now that I work with practitioners when you have your own modality as a practitioner, you know Then the people that are coming to you are coming to you for that particular modality and This whole charting thing is very niche. It's very specialized and not everybody wants to do it and that's totally okay I think that that's something that's important to remember So when you're as a practitioner seeing the value of charting and if there's a lot of value there   And it's really helpful. I mean, for me, that's all I do. So it's hard for me to imagine how I would support someone without seeing it, because it really is an integral part of everything that I do. But when you get all jazzed about something, it doesn't mean that everyone else is jazzed about it too. So when it comes to then encouraging your clients to chart, coming from all different walks of life and varying levels of interest in this topic, I think that it's important to kind of put that all into perspective. So.   Michelle (11:25) Mm -hmm.   Lisa Jack (11:40) You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. I think you can think about your messaging. One of the things that I learned, just because I've been in the field so long, I went through my initial, everybody needs to do this face, you know, 20 years ago, and, you know, trying to ram it down. And I'm not saying that's what anyone's doing. I'm just saying, like, when you first learn about this stuff, it's like you want to, like, literally, like, all your girlfriends, you have to, right? Like, you get into this energy, and some of your girlfriends are like, you need to leave me alone.   Michelle (12:03) Hahaha.   Lisa Jack (12:06) right? Because like, I've got this, like, I'm good with the birth control pill, and you need to stop. And that's okay. So the way that I have approached that in my life is that, I mean, now I have my own podcast, right? Like, I talk to people who want to hear about it. And in my personal life, I don't necessarily talk about it. And I have not, I typically don't have the experience where a person is not necessarily at all coming to me for charting, because usually people are coming to me for charting.   Michelle (12:21) Yeah.   Lisa Jack (12:34) but I have had varying levels of interest within that. So I've had a lot of clients who are coming to me for conception and they really do want to know what's going on in their cycle. But sometimes the charting does cause a lot of stress, especially depending on what a person is going through. So I've had clients who are super motivated, like dotting all the, you know, eyes, crossing all the T's, writing every little notation and notes and like really, really detailed. And I've also had clients who resist that a bit and they...   They don't necessarily get into the notations a whole lot. And so a lot of what I do in those situations is we have a conversation and talk through it. It's the same stuff. They're just not writing it down. And I try to help them achieve their goals, meeting them where they're at. Like I can think of several clients who weren't necessarily super into those notations, but through our conversations, like they were still checking. They were still observing their cervical fluid. They were still able to time sex accordingly.   And they got a lot out of it. And I really tailored what I was presenting to them to what they needed. And I was always having those check -in conversations. And this is something I talk about with my practitioners, like the whole coaching aspect of it, where you can have your goals. You want to have this person chart, but they can have their own goals. And so sometimes it's like, well, what would success look like for you? You know, I see that you're not really that into the charting or I see that the charting is causing a lot of stress. We don't want more stress. We definitely don't want that. What would make you happy?   Like what would success look like after, you know, our several weeks of working together? And maybe she says, I just wanted to understand how to pick up when like which days I'm fertile. Like I don't want to like write it all down or anything. I just want to be more confident in identifying that. And so, you know, my comment on that is there are lots of ways that we can improve our clients' education and confidence without necessarily going all the way down the charting rabbit hole. So we have to be flexible as practitioners with where our clients are at with these things.   Michelle (14:30) No, I'm with you and I actually tell them There's a lot of other ways to figure out if you're ovulating. However, I always really enjoy being able to look at the charts because it on a different level.   Lisa Jack (14:44) as a practitioner, when you have that knowledge, you can still, like it still comes through and they're still getting so much from you.   And I think sometimes it's interesting hearing the charting instructor saying, you know what, if this is stressing you out, then just stop. I've had that conversation with a number of clients over the years where it's like, if this is too much for you, then just stop. Just stop charting for a month or two and see how you feel. And the interesting thing is you stop writing it down. But after you've learned all the stuff about how to identify the fertile, it's not like you're going to stop going pee. So you're going to see your mucus.   and you're still going to have that knowledge and information. You're just finding a way to dance with that information that does not cause more stress.   Michelle (15:28) Absolutely. So as far as birth control pills,   I know this is another topic you talk about a lot and also just like how that impacts the body. So I'd love for you to talk about like how it impacts the body. And then if somebody's been taking it for a really long and wants to get pregnant after stopping, what are some of the things they should be thinking about?   Lisa Jack (15:52) Mm -hmm. Love that question because not a lot of We're just not told how the birth control pill works. I was actually listening to someone Kind of a prominent person talk about the birth control pill Yesterday and it was really great because a lot of what she said was on point but she did say, you know, well, you know the pill tricks your body into thinking that you're pregnant and and so these are some of the myths that we still have Today about how the birth control pill works in the body. I   So it's interesting because if we were to compare the state of a woman on birth control, so the state of her natural hormones, the most compatible or comparable state would actually be to a woman in menopause. That makes terrible PR and marketing, so they're not gonna tell you that. And so essentially, the pill, the main mode of action for the most common pill, which is the combined oral contraceptives, so it has a combination of synthetic progestin and synthetic estrogens,   is to suppress ovulation. So that's the main mode of action. And that's really helpful when you're trying to avoid pregnancy, because if you're not ovulating, you can't get pregnant. So in order for it to suppress ovulation, then, it interferes with the conversation that is typically happening between your hypothalamus, pituitary gland, and ovaries. And as a result, the ovaries then become kind of dormant. And so that's why we can think of the menopause as a similar comparison, not pregnancy. Because in pregnancy, we're actually making ridiculous amounts of   progesterone. So compared to the progesterone you make in your menstrual cycle, by the time you're 40 weeks pregnant, you're making 11 times the amount of progesterone. So it's not the same when you're on the pill. It's not a comparable state. And so when women are on the pill, if we were to measure their natural estrogen and progesterone, they would be very low and flat, very consistent. So the first main mode of action is to suppress ovulation.   And then there are other modes of action that work in conjunction. One is to maintain a very thin, flat endometrial lining. And so they measure it with ultrasound and, you in my books, I kind of share some of those numbers because it's quite, quite thin. So even if something were to happen, then there's less of a chance of conception because the endometrium is so thin. And then it also prevents the production of fertile quality cervical fluid. So the sperm then theoretically, like they can't go anywhere because the, the cervix is blocked with this mucus plug all the time.   And those are the modes of action that work together. So when a woman is then on contraceptives for a long time, and, excuse me, interestingly in the research, they define long -term as two years or more. And when you think about most of the women in your life or yourself, many women have used birth control for two years, five years, eight years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. So this whole concept of long -term is pretty.   mainstream if they're defining it as two years. So there's a couple different ways that the pill affects the body then. One is that it does have an effect on the menstrual cycle. So when women are coming off the pill, research has shown that it takes anywhere from nine to 12 cycles for all cycles, not months, for all of those menstrual cycle parameters to normalize post -pill. So that includes everything we just talked about, like the overall cycle length, the cervical mucous production,   you know, the luteal phase length. And so it's really common to come off the pill and to have a short luteal phase for it to take several months before the cycle either returns or normalizes. So some women do get their, they start ovulating and having their periods pretty, pretty quick. Others might take a couple of months and then on the, you know, a smaller percentage might take quite a while, but generally speaking, a lot of women get their cycles back within the first few months. But then those first few cycles, often ovulation is delayed. And so some of those cycles,   are quite a bit longer. And then it's also quite common to have a short luteal phase for those first few cycles and to have abnormal cervical amicus patterns. So that's one way that the pill affects the body. Another thing to be aware of is it's well known that when women are on contraceptives, so if you were currently on contraceptives and you did an ovarian reserve test, for example, it suppresses ovarian function. I just said it makes the ovaries dormant. So then it's logical that those...   ovarian reserve parameters are going to be suppressed. And that's what we find in the research. So I think one of the scary stats when women engage with my books is that stat on how when women are on the pill, ovarian volume shrinks by 50%. So it's saying that the pill shrinks your ovaries while you're on them. That sounds awful, right? And then the AMH is low and antral follicle count is low. And what the research tells us...   is that when a woman comes off the pill, it takes about a minimum of six to seven months before those parameters start to normalize again. And interestingly then, why are we not told to come off the pill? Six to a minimum of six months or so before we start trying, we're not, but that's something important to know as well. So I don't see these things to scare you because obviously some women do come off the pill and get pregnant right off the bat. So it's not even to say that you can't.   Michelle (20:46) Right.   Lisa Jack (21:01) but we want to acknowledge that there's a temporary period of subfertility post -pill. And so the other way, so I talked about kind of these three ways that the pill affects the body. So I mentioned the menstrual cycle effects on the menstrual cycle. I mentioned the effects on the ovaries and then there's the effect on fertility itself. And so those are the time to pregnancy studies where they look at how long it takes a person to conceive.   And so there was this interesting study that compared women who were using condoms, so non -hormonal methods, to a variety of hormonal methods, including the birth control pill, the shot, the hormonal IUD, and a few others. And in that study, the women who came off the pill, it took them an average of eight months to conceive. The ones who were using the pill, quote, long term, so two years or more, compared to the women who were using condoms, who took an average of four months to conceive. And the shot...   users were the worst offenders and they took an average of about 18 months to conceive after coming off of the shot. And the IUD was about eight months as well, eight to 10 months. So that is interesting information because we're not told that. So it doesn't mean that we need to be afraid that the pill is going to impair our fertility forever, but it does mean that we need to be aware that there's a temporary period of subfertility. So then the recommendation out of that,   Michelle (21:52) Mm -hmm. Wow.   Right.   Lisa Jack (22:19) that Lily and I make in real food for fertility is that you should consider coming off of birth control a minimum, I would say a minimum of six to 12 months before you start trying to conceive. And I would add in a caveat that if you did go on the pill because you had menstrual cycle problems, like because you actually knew that there was something wrong, you had long irregular cycles, you never knew when your next period was coming, you had extreme pain with menstruation.   you had extreme mood swings or like, right, like there was some sort of kind of medical reason why you were put on birth control, then you'd want to extend that period. And I would go as far to say 18 months to two years because not because we think you won't be able to get pregnant, but because if there's an underlying issue, the pill doesn't solve it. It masks it. So when you come off of it, you still have to figure out what's going on there if you wanted to conceive naturally. So if you come off well before you're ready, so you're still.   Michelle (23:06) Mm -hmm.   Lisa Jack (23:16) Actively avoiding like you have to figure out your birth control and I would recommend a non hormonal birth control option So you still have to be on top of your birth control game? But during that time if your cycle is kind of wonky if things are going awry You actually have time to fix it. You have time to make your appointments You have time to normalize your hormones without the added pressure of also trying to conceive at the exact same time   Michelle (23:40) Yeah. I mean, it's crazy to me because I have, I can't tell you how many people I've had come in and say, oh, my doctor said the second you get off your birth control pill, even if they've been on it for like 15 to sometimes 20 years, the second you get off, you can get pregnant. You don't have to do anything. And you're telling me the science, you know, it's crazy because they say that they're very based in science and the evidence, but.   Nobody seems to be looking at that   Lisa Jack (24:09) Well, and there's a couple things I can mention about the science that I think are really interesting. So, I mean, one of the ways, one of the reasons that I am digging into the weeds about this is because often when I'm working with women in real time, I'm seeing this stuff. I'm seeing the menstrual cycle regularities and it's consistent. I've worked with hundreds of women at this point who've come off of birth control in my various programs and you see it. You see these abnormal mucous patterns. You see that it takes time for the cycle to normalize.   Michelle (24:26) Yeah.   Lisa Jack (24:38) And so then when you see that stuff, you want to know why. And so that's part of my motivation to look at the research to kind of get that explanation. Because sometimes you see things in clinical practice before you understand why you're seeing them. And then when you actually dig into the research, you're like, OK, this is why. Because the pills, you know, suppressing ovarian function and it takes seven months minimum for that ovarian function to normalize. You know, I had this woman reach out to me. She's like a listener of the podcast.   Michelle (24:49) Right.   Lisa Jack (25:06) And she kind of independently had this experience. She came off the pill, she was in her late thirties, and then she got her AMH and her ovarian reserve parameters tested right off the bat because her and her husband wanted to conceive. And they came back so low that they told her, and this is a whole other topic if you want to go into it, because we can, but they told her, okay, your AMH is so low, you won't be able to conceive and all that kind of stuff. And so then she was devastated. It was like a whole thing. She was like, what's going on? And she was trying to do her research. And again, she was listening to the podcast.   And then she ended up independently requesting her ovarian reserve parameters tested several times during the first year after the pill. So I don't have the data in front of me because she actually sent it to me and I invited her on the podcast and we talked about it was a really interesting episode. But so she tested it independently, like whatever it was, four months, six months, like in 12 months, whatever, right? So you get my point. And interestingly, by the 12 month mark, you know, the AMH was...   like rebounded quite well to the doctor's astoundment, if that's a word. And I, it aligns with the research study that I cited in that book. Now in that study, they only went to the six to seven month mark. You know, in her case, she just independently chose to demand these tests and saw the results for herself. And so again, this is, it's really interesting information. So what I wanted to say about the research and what's interesting about it is that,   It's harder to find studies that actually break down the data like month to month, or even just not just at the year mark. Most of the studies, if you look, because I did, and a lot of the newer studies that are coming out, they just tell you at the year mark. And so when you have a study that's saying X percentage of women conceived at the year mark, the pill is a reversible contraceptive method, it's all good. Goodbye, get out of my office. Then that's...   If that's all you're looking at, you're not asking these questions, but it's when you look at the studies that actually break this stuff down, like how things are at the beginning, after two months, three months, five months, six months, eight months, 12 months, that you actually see that, yeah, sure, if we just skip to 12 months, it looks great and it sounds great in a study, it's very succinct. But the emotional damage, my kids always, they have all their slang, emotional damage. So if anyone has like 10 year olds, they're gonna be laughing with me. And everyone who doesn't is like, what is she talking about?   But like the emotional issues that like the very real challenges for a woman in her, you know, let's say late 20s, early 30s, mid 30s, whatever, who has been avoiding pregnancy like the plague her whole life, who's told that she can get pregnant on every day of her cycle, terrified all the time is so scared to come off the pill that she probably delayed it as long as humanly possible because she thought she was going to get pregnant immediately. The amount of stress it causes her.   two months later to still not be pregnant, three months later to still not be pregnant. That is the reason that I look at this research and talk about it in this way. And that is one of the reasons why maybe the medical professionals are not talking about it this way because most of the research just looks at the year mark and says X percent of women conceived, end of story, you're good to go, come off the pill, you'll get pregnant, it's fine.   Michelle (28:19) really is crazy if you think about it. And because people are really not getting the full picture and they're not getting enough information to really go on. And another thing is also just the nutrient deficiencies, which I know that you guys address in the book. So I want to talk about that as well and why that's so important. What are some of the things that you guys see and like how to address it?   Lisa Jack (28:43) Mm -hmm. I mean, I think that's such a good question as well because I had thought of it when you were talking before You know just come off the pill and you'll get pregnant, right? That's what your practitioner says and Interestingly, I mean, yes, the goal is to get pregnant but like for me I have three children by this point So it's not just to get pregnant because you could get pregnant and miscarry you can get pregnant have an awful pregnancy It could be a very difficult time where you're feeling really ill and sick and therefore you you're not even able to eat the best   Michelle (29:02) Right.   Lisa Jack (29:11) You know, have these plans to eat all this good food during pregnancy. And then for many of us, including myself, I had a lot of nausea. I didn't have a lot of vomiting, but I had a lot of nausea in the like, especially my last pregnancy in the first several months. And so you don't always have the opportunity to eat all the good food you were planning to eat. So when it comes to what the goals are, I would say on my client's behalf that, yes, the goal is to conceive, but it is to have a healthy child. It is to be a healthy parent.   It is hard to parent even if you are nourished. If you are, like most women, deficient in iron going into pregnancy, studies show as few as 20 % of women go into pregnancy with sufficient iron stores. I mean, it's even harder to parent when you're nutrient deficient at the end of this process and you're low in iron and every other nutrient known to human beings and your thyroid is acting up and whatever. So...   I would go further and say, okay, it's not just about getting pregnant. It's about having a healthy child. And if we have the opportunity to optimize, it's not just going to help the child, it's going to help us as well. So some of the nutrients that are depleted by hormonal contraceptives, it's like the exact ones we need to make healthy babies. It depletes our B vitamins, particularly folate, and B12, and B6 is particularly bad.   It depletes our coenzyme Q10, which anybody who's in the fertility space knows is essential for optimal egg and sperm quality and overall health. And it does this by disrupting nutrient metabolism. When I was talking about the B6 depletion in the fifth vital sign, I gave the analogy of like a hole in a bucket. Because in order to get enough B6, for example,   to offset the deficiency, it's like you had to take 38 times the recommended RDA, right? So it's showing you that it's changing the way you're metabolizing these nutrients. So just by coming off of it, your body would then start metabolizing those things normally. And so maybe like the hole stops, like you stop up the hole in the bucket, but you would still want a period of time of focused nutrition so that you can actually build back.   up those stores and there's other nutrients including zinc and magnesium, selenium, phosphorus, it increases your requirements for vitamin A and vitamin C. Like it's interesting and this is well known and you know even I had an interesting pharmacist on my podcast years ago and like pharmacists are super interesting because like they study all the drug interactions and I mean he wrote a whole book on how   you know, the pill depletes all these nutrients and he's kind of arguing like, why aren't we telling them to take a vitamin or something like we know that this is happening and the vitamin doesn't make everything better either. It just like puts a little like it's like damage control until we get off of it. So so then the recommendation out of that is not only do we want to take the time.   Michelle (32:02) Right. Yeah.   Right.   Lisa Jack (32:17) for our menstrual cycles to normalize, right? And our ovaries to just get, and again, it's not to say that you can't get pregnant. Like if your body is ready, then plenty of women come off the pill and get pregnant, but we're saying, let's take it a step further and optimize this. So during that, let's say minimum period of six to 12 months, we are also encouraging you to really focus on incorporating the foods that contain those nutrients that are depleted on the pill, the same ones we need to optimize our chances of conception so that when we're ready to conceive, ideally,   Our bodies are ready, ideally we're able to conceive quicker, more easily, and our pregnancies, the pregnancy outcome, the health of our babies and our own health is better. I mean, why not?   Michelle (33:00) Totally. And then also the gut health, like the gut microbiome gets impacted, which can impact also how we're absorbing those it's important to also get that back so that you're able to like reabsorb nutrients.   Lisa Jack (33:16) Yeah, I mean, I think that it's just, this is the information that we need. It's a piece of it. And it's crazy to think that it's just not a standard practice. So I've spoken to so many women who they had it in their mind, you know, I've been on the pill for 10 years and my husband and I are planning to start trying to conceive in the fall, you know? And so she calls her doctor, makes her appointment, takes a shower, gets in her car, drives across town.   to ask this doctor if she should come off the pill, you know, even a few months before. And the doctor says, no, you're good. But I always say like your intuition got you to like get out of bed, like do all this stuff. Like something's up. Listen to it. You know what I mean? It's just we just live in an upside down, ridiculous place where, you know, after we hear this stuff, it feels like common sense. But before, you know, you're questioning yourself. And that's how the medical system is. It's very paternalistic. Not to like.   Michelle (33:56) Yeah, yep, totally.   Lisa Jack (34:13) totally rag on it. But we can't always depend on these so -called professionals for all of these answers because at the end of the day, doctors are busy and they don't necessarily have time to read all of this research. So they don't know everything.   Michelle (34:27) 100%. I think that that is the key phrase is nobody knows everything. That's why you need a team. And it's important to ask a lot of people. And also you are part of that team. Your own internal intelligence is a thing. Yes. And you got to listen to your gut. Like your intuition is a real thing. So, um,   Lisa Jack (34:39) You're the head of the team.   Michelle (34:48) And I think there have been studies on that too. So yeah, people have like intuitive intuition and they can feel their body from within because if you think about survival, you even look at animals, they'll know what to eat. They just are guided by what is good for their body. That is a real instinct that we have and I think very, very important that you touched upon that. as one of the questions,   Lisa Jack (34:51) Hahaha!   Michelle (35:16) about or is it true that we are born with all the eggs we'll ever have?   Lisa Jack (35:21) Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it's so interesting because we live in just such an interesting time. So there are these like talks about stem cell research and, you know, people are starting to say like, it's a myth and all this kind of stuff. But when we're looking at natural conception, like birds and the bee stuff, we are for all intents and purposes born with all the eggs that we'll ever have. So it's really interesting numbers. When we're in utero, you know, we have several million eggs in there.   And by the time we're born, we have an estimated number of 500 ,000 to a million eggs, which is wild if you think about it. And to go a step further too, so I mentioned like my, I have three children and so I have a, my youngest is 19 months old as we're recording this and it's a she. So I had a girl after 10 years of being a boy mom, which is fun. But fun fact, you know, when I was pregnant with her, you know, she then had all her eggs in there.   And so theoretically, I was carrying the egg that could turn into a grandchild in the future. So all that fun information, fun facts. And so as we then go through the process of aging, as we go through our reproductive years, and we then at the time of menopause, when we have our last period, they say we have about 1 ,000 eggs left.   So from that perspective then, we can't really control the natural kind of, because there is this natural over time, they call it follicular atresia. They say we ovulate, the research says if you're ovulating normally throughout your reproductive life, you're going to release anywhere from 400 to 500 eggs. So assuming you're not on the pill for 20 years, you're not necessarily releasing all those eggs. During ovulation, that's how much you're releasing, which is interesting.   But it's not to say that you have a million eggs and then you're releasing one at a time. And so it's like going down like that. What happens is every time you go through a menstrual cycle, you have a cohort of follicles that develop and they prepare for ovulation. And then one is chosen to ovulate, but the majority of them, they just, you know, again, they call it follicular atresia. Like the majority of them just kind of like go away.   And interestingly, the question comes like, well, if I'm on the pill and I'm not ovulating, does that mean that I get all these extra eggs? And it's like, have you ever known anyone who was on the pill for 20 years to then go through menopause at 70? No, you haven't. That's not a thing. So even though you're not ovulating, cycle to cycle in the same way, that process of follicular atresia is still taking place. So I think that what's scary about that is that we have this finite number and there's an end date.   Michelle (37:52) laughs   Lisa Jack (38:10) Whereas men don't have a firm end date. They do go through aging. So their sperm quality changes over time. Like, listen, they make no mistake. But they still continue to produce sperm all their lives. Whereas we have this end date. So then when we're looking at supporting egg quality, when we're looking at optimizing our chances of fertility, then what we're looking at is to support egg quality. You know, we're looking to understand the different ways that we can test for   are over in reserve and understand those interactions, but we really want to focus on that quality. Because even though there's this cool research that talks about the stem cells, and I don't know if your listeners have heard this, maybe you've heard it, Michelle, but it's like people are talking about this now, like, oh, it's a myth. But that all requires artificial reproductive technology. Like there's no scenario where whatever they're talking about happens naturally. So if we're looking at natural conception, then that's really where our focus has to be, which is on supporting egg.   quality and one fun fact I want to share about egg quality that I think is kind of mind -blowing. Okay, so Michelle, do you remember high school, you know, high, junior high or high school bio class like biology class where they used to tell us about the cells or whatever and like in my textbook they would have a picture of the cell and it had all the like organelles and stuff and there would be like a couple like maybe one or two mitochondria in the picture, right?   Michelle (39:34) Yes.   Lisa Jack (39:35) So how many, I don't know if we've had this conversation specifically, so how many mitochondria do you think are in an egg cell?   Michelle (39:43) I know there are hundreds of thousands.   Lisa Jack (39:45) Yeah, so when I asked this question to someone who's not heard this before, you know, it's kind of like, I don't know, right? Because in the picture, yeah. Yeah. So you were in the know. But like, when you think about it, so the range of mitochondria in your average cell could be from like a few, a handful to a few hundred, like liver cells, heart cells have a few thousand mitochondria, which is even mind blowing in and of itself. Because like in the picture, in the textbook, there was like one.   Michelle (39:49) I heard it on your podcast years ago. Yeah.   I know. It's like one lonely mitochondria just floating in the cytoplasm.   Lisa Jack (40:13) Right? There was not a thousand. You're just like, how does what do you mean there's a thousand? What does the cell look like? Exactly. But in the human egg cell. So the human egg cell is the largest cell of all the cells in the body. It is a cell that is visible to the naked eye. It is the size of a period in a piece on a piece of paper. So you can actually see it with the naked eye. And there are anywhere from 100 ,000 to 600 ,000 mitochondria in one egg cell.   Oh my gosh. And mitochondria are what determine there are energy producers. And then if you think about it logically, it's like, well, yeah, we're building a whole human. So yes, that makes sense. Right. But until you break it down, you don't think about it. So then how do we support egg quality? Well, we do everything we can to support our mitochondrial health. So to really support those mitochondrial cells, we also do what we can do to reduce what they term.   Michelle (40:43) Yup.   Right?   Lisa Jack (41:07) oxidative stress, which is damaged to oxygen. So I was thinking the example of like, if you peel a banana and it turns brown, but if you dip the banana in, you know, lemon juice or vitamin C water, then it doesn't turn brown. So it's that those two things are play a big role in supporting mitochondrial and overall egg quality.   Michelle (41:28) Yes, yeah, 100%. I also talk about plugging the energy leaks in your life because man, even emotions can drain your energy. So they're just like everything, all the aspects, all the things. And I want to talk really quickly because I know we're kind of running out of time about sperm health because we had a really good conversation on the recording that didn't work out. And I want to talk about that, about the parameters of sperm health today.   what they used to be and how they've changed and what we're seeing just overall, like now versus before.   Lisa Jack (42:02) Yeah, I mean, I always get excited to talk about all of these topics, really, like the egg quality piece is super interesting and then the sperm quality. But particularly with sperm, when it comes to fertility, we're still somehow in this place where we think of fertility as a woman's health issue and we don't really think about the contribution of the male. And so the statistics tell us that 20 to 30 percent of all cases of infertility are solely related to male factor.   and 50 % of the time male factor plays a role. So that means half of the time when you're dealing with a fertility issue, his contribution is playing a role, it's a factor. So the odds are pretty good then that if you're dealing with infertility or struggling to conceive that there's something going on with his sperm. And then there's a few other studies that I found really interesting just collectively where...   when they look at different populations. So if they're doing a study, they might have a group of people who's trying to conceive and some of them conceive within the first six months or the first year and then others conceive within year one or year two. And statistically speaking, if you're taking more than a year or two to conceive, his sperm is not optimal. So on average, when they separate it out,   the sperm quality of the groups of men who are part of that cohort that it took a year or two years to conceive or more, the overall average is a lot lower. Statistically, hello, this is something we should be aware of. Getting back to what you were alluding to, when we look at older studies, the average man in the 40s had a sperm concentration of something like 113 million sperm per milliliter, which sounds like a lot.   The average man today has an average of about 50, 50 million sperm per milliliter. So there's a lot of different studies. It's widely known. It's been talked about quite a bit. It's a topic that comes up every now and then because there is this trend, this downward trend when we look at sperm counts where it's declining and it's declined anywhere up to 70%.   you know, within the last few generations. And it's a concern because what happens in 40 years, like if we continue on this downward spiral, what literally will happen? Because how much further down can we go? Right? So this highlights that it's not just an issue with your partner. It's not just these people. This is an overall trend that's affecting men on a large scale. And arguably, it's affecting us too. We just don't have the ability to test eggs like they do sperm. Like we can't just provide an egg sample.   So it's a little bit more difficult for us to kind of provide that type of information. But arguably there's something going on. And I mean, naturally the question is, well, why is this happening? And I think there's a variety of factors. So I think overall diet quality has declined. There's a huge influx in the consumption of ultra processed foods. So an ultra processed or processed food is something where you look at it and you literally can't even tell what it came from. So if you look at white, that too.   Michelle (45:01) Mm -hmm.   You can't even pronounce it.   Lisa Jack (45:10) But if you look at like white sugar or white flour, like you don't know if it came from a beet. You don't know what it came from, right? And then when you take those materials that have already been processed, lots of the nutrients, a huge portion of the nutrients that were in whatever the original food was are lost in that processing. And then you make foods with it. I mean, their solution is to fortify it back with some nutrients. But what you have is a far inferior product that is far less.   nutrient dense. And so that's a part of it. When you're consuming ultra processed foods, you're also often consuming a higher portion of carbohydrates as opposed to getting a good healthy balance of protein and fat. I mean, the 80s and 90s were all about not eating the fat, right? The fat phobia, cholesterol is bad, all the things. And what do you need for optimal fertility? Well, you need sufficient protein as the backbone that we require to make enough hormones. We need sufficient cholesterol specifically.   Michelle (45:56) All right. Yeah.   Lisa Jack (46:09) because cholesterol is a precursor for our steroid hormones. And when we consume this off balance, really high carbohydrate diet, we end up with metabolic issues and what's on the rise, right? Obesity, metabolic issues, diabetes. There's all these issues that contribute to poor sperm parameters and poor egg quality, poor fertility and reproductive outcomes. So there's a lot of different factors. And then we did even talk about the toxins, you know, every year thousands and thousands of new chemicals are created.   Michelle (46:09) Yeah.   Lisa Jack (46:38) A lot of them are similar in structure to estrogen. And in order for men to make sperm, they need testosterone. So anything that's pouring estrogen into all of their skin and all of the scented things and all the stuff we put on our body and all the chemicals and in the environment, all that stuff, none of that helps the sperm. So there's a lot of different factors we can look at that are contributing. So, I mean, this is a big topic. And one thing I just wanna make sure to mention is that...   The most common thing that I've experienced as a practitioner is that when I'm working with a client who's been trying to conceive or working on the charting and everything, I'm asking, has your partner been tested? And if he has, then it's like, yeah, but he's fine. I always say that. My favorite way, right? He's fine. We were told he was fine. He's good. But no one ever went through his analysis with you. So in the book, we actually put a table in there. We have some drawings of what sperm looks like and all this stuff. We're equipping you with all this information.   because what happens is the guidelines that they use are based off of this 2010 World Health Organization document. And in that document, they're telling you that normal parameters are a sperm concentration of 15 .15 million sperm per milliliter. I just finished telling you that the average amount of the 40s had like 10 times that amount of sperm. And so they're telling you that if his sperm is 15 .15 million,   sperm per milliliter or higher that he's fine. The motility 40%. So motility means the sperm that are moving. So does that mean 60 % aren't moving? And then the morphology being 4 % or higher. So again, morphology means if you look at it, if you think of sperm, it looks like a little circle oval head and tail. So when it doesn't have normal morphology,   Michelle (48:05) Mm -hmm.   Lisa Jack (48:29) It means that the head could be squashed. There could be no head. There could be two heads. There could be no tail, like all that kind of stuff. And so they're saying four out of every hundred look like a normal sperm and 96 don't. And you're good to go. So what those what's important to realize about those numbers is that those normal numbers do not represent what would be optimal for conception naturally. Those numbers represent a point that below which.   Michelle (48:44) Yeah. Yeah.   Lisa Jack (48:57) there's a problem and we need to look at it. So it's a very different way of looking at it. So what we talk about in the book, there's a different study that looked at, at what point do the numbers start to have a negative impact on fertility to try to define an optimal level. And those research defined optimal as sperm concentration of 48 million sperm per milliliter or higher.   they defined a normal motility of 63 % and a normal morphology of 12%. So that's a lot higher than the World Health Organization. So what I'm saying is for couples who have been struggling to conceive, you know, if your partner hasn't been tested yet, you know, we're saying get them tested as soon as you can. Because even if you want to, if you identify an issue, it takes anywhere from a minimum of three to four months.   Michelle (49:36) Mm -hmm.   Lisa Jack (49:55) to start to see an improvement because when your partner ejaculates today, count back three months. So we're recording this in like end of February, so let's say March. So count back three months, February, January, December. So whatever he was doing in December, that determines his printout today. So whatever he does today, we're not gonna see the printout until April, May, June, right? So just to put it out there. And that's only the beginning of it, because it's not like everything's just amazing in three months. Like it can take several months for all of those changes to kick in. So.   Michelle (50:11) Right.   Lisa Jack (50:25) You know, what we're talking about then is that there's a range, a sub -fertile range that is not being looked at. Men are just being told that they're either good to go or they're not, and they're not being told that, you know, you might have, you know, beat the WHO criteria, but that doesn't make you optimal, and you still have a whole ways to go. And as long as you're not in that optimal range, it's going to mean, statistically, that it's going to take you longer to conceive.   Michelle (50:55) Oh my God, it's crazy because this information, especially if you're really actively trying to conceive, you could be wasting a lot of time not really getting the right information. Lisa, as always, you're a wealth of information, super, super smart. I really admire your brain. I'm very excited. Well, it's good to read.   Lisa Jack (51:15) I read a lot.   Michelle (51:22) And I'm very excited. I actually haven't seen your book yet. I read the first chapter. I did opt in for that. So I'm very excited because it is so rich with the information. I feel like it's really going to benefit the community in such an empowering way. So I think it's amazing that you guys did this. Really, it's such a contribution. Because a lot of people don't really know all those details. And I know that you really went into deep.   studies and presenting people with information that is not something that they're going to get presented with by mainstream. Let's just say mainstream. I feel mainstream is just not as, you're not going to get the quality from mainstream. You almost have to dig deeper to get the quality of the true real information that's going to help. So I know we're running out of time and I know that you have to go. So I just want to thank you so much for coming on. Before we,   I want you to share with the listeners how they can find the book, how they could find you, work with you, all the stuff.   Lisa Jack (52:29) Well, thank you again. Thank you so much. This is a great conversation. You had great questions. So the newest book is Real Food for Fertility and it's available on Amazon. It's currently available in our paperback and ebook formats. And Lily and I are planning to record the audiobook later this year. So we're really excited about that. So for all of the podcast listeners, it's like, when's the audiobook coming out? Like soon, soon. We're doing it as soon as we can.   Michelle (52:50) The audio people.   Lisa Jack (52:53) Yes, but we wanted to do it ourselves. I always think it's fun when the authors are able to do it themselves. So we're really looking forward to that. You can also go over to realfoodforfertility .com. You mentioned the, you know, you opted in for the first chapter. So for anyone who wants to dive into the first chapter, you can grab that over there and also find more information about Lily and myself.   And you can find me if you like podcasts, if this topic interests you, you can type Fertility Friday into your favorite podcast player and you'll find my podcast. I'm in my 10th year of podcasting. We've released over 500 episodes, which is totally wild. And so lots of lots of fun and info to be had over there. And you can find me on Instagram at Fertility Friday. That's my favorite place on the socials to hang out. And I'll just make one more note for any practitioners who are listening.   You know, this whole topic of charting, we talked about it a little bit, incorporating charting into what you're doing and using it as a vital sign for your clients. I created this resource, How to Interpret Virtually Any Chart Your Client Throws at You, that I made specifically for practitioners, and you can get that over at fertilityfriday .com slash chart.   Michelle (54:01) Fabulous. Lisa, it's always a pleasure talking to you. I really admire your   thank you so much for coming on today.   Lisa Jack (54:09) Thank you so much for having me.  

On today’s episode, I will be discussing some aspects that contribute to vitality and fertility health that are often missed on the fertility journey. Here are some topics that will be covered: Integrating Ancient and Modern Knowledge: How aspects of Taoist philosophies and TCM align with current research and what that can mean for fertility health. The Body’s Wisdom: Learn how the body possesses an inherent intelligence for conception and how aligning with our natural biological rhythms can support the path to reproduction. My Personal Experience: Hear about my own struggles with irregular periods and how this led me to explore a combination of medical perspectives and trust my intuition in making health decisions. Patterns and Cycles: Learn about the importance of recognizing natural patterns and cycles, a concept deeply rooted in Chinese medicine, and how this understanding can impact fertility. Interconnectedness: How TCM perceives a holographic nature of the universe, where everything is connected, reflecting a larger whole and its relevance to our reproductive health. Balance for Fertility: The episode highlights the critical role of balance, represented by the yin and yang, and how maintaining this equilibrium is essential for optimal health and fertility.   [Don’t forget to subscribe to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast for more empowering insights and real-world stories on the fertility journey.]   Be sure to go to this link to find out how to pre-order The Way of Fertility and receive the special gifts mentioned in this episode!   https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/       Transcript:   Way of fertility episode [00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. So if you're new to this podcast, my name is Michelle Oravitz and I'm an acupuncturist specializing in fertility health. And for people who know me have been listening to this for a while, you may have heard a couple of different announcements here and there that I am super excited. Because my new book is coming out, The Way of Fertility. And a lot of you guys might be thinking, What in the world is this book about? Is it about Chinese medicine? Is it about acupuncture points? Is it about food? Is it about supplements? What is it about?    So of course I can try to explain in the best way I can but it's almost like trying to tell a friend about another friend that you met that you really connected with and trying to put that into words and To describe the person and [00:01:00] of course, there are so many different aspects to it and it's an experience So, you'll have to read it to get that full immersion However, it really is based on ancient Wisdom so a lot of what I share is not only about ancient wisdom,   But it's also about some modern research that has been done that has shown and proven some of these things that Chinese medicine has spoken about and the energetics that basically are super important for fertility health, like the heart uterus connection.   And ultimately, this book is for the person that has tried everything to conceive and is not sure what in the world is getting in the way. So they're eating the right foods. They're doing the right things. They're having sex at the right time. They're going to the doctor. They're figuring out all the different options that they can do. They're cutting out any toxins in [00:02:00] their life, trying everything almost to the point of being stressed by all of the checklist,   But yet not having any success. And so in the book I wanted to speak about a very important aspect of our being that rarely gets attention. And it's not just the mind. I know I talk a lot about the mind, but it's more than that. And And it really comes down to this and really the statement. So unless you have some very unusual reason that's very rare, like blocked tubes or some people are born without a uterus or a genetic component that is not allowing you to conceive, then you are hardwired to conceive.   You were designed to reproduce as a human. Majority of people are designed to reproduce and the majority of cases of fertility challenges is. are not true infertility, meaning it's not [00:03:00] like impossible for them to conceive. And this is why people are listening to podcasts like mine because they know and believe that there must be something that they can do in order to improve their ability to conceive. So in the book, I look into this thing, this intelligence that has been spoken about throughout history. It's been referred to the Tao, you know, the Tao, the way. So Taoism, if you haven't listened to some of my earlier episodes, Taoism is really the, religion, or it could be considered a way of life.   That is what. Chinese medicine is based on, and a lot of these ancient medicines have a wisdom. So even Ayurveda, it really comes down to uniting and connecting with our nature. And when we are [00:04:00]expressing our nature the way it was intended to be expressed. And when we are connected with our external nature, which is the nature that is also being guided by that same intelligence that we are, then that is really living in accordance to the Tao, accordance to the way. So the Tao translates as the way this is why I was inspired to call it the way of fertility because ultimately when our bodies are fully aligned in their expression, then that is when our bodies will want to reproduce because it's kind of like a reminder. I think we forget often because we see it as such a challenge, but reproduction is what your body. It's programmed to do because that is ultimately what will continue life here on earth and you'll see it.   You'll see it everywhere. I mean, sprouts are everywhere in nature because nature [00:05:00] constantly wants to keep thriving and it will adapt to that. As well. So if you'll see a tree or even cement and through the cracks, you'll see lots of weeds. I mean, nature just constantly wants to keep on thriving and that's what it is gravitating towards.   So I speak about what gets in the way of that, because there must be something that's getting in the way of that. If the body is not expressing itself fully, and this is a very personal story for me as well. You may have heard me talk about this a lot in my own. You know, my own journey is that I had 12 years of irregular periods and irregular meaning like two months, three months, just not getting my period on time at all.   And only given the birth control pill as an answer and getting really frustrated and realizing that while. All types of medicines have their [00:06:00] gifts, not all of them know everything. So there's a time to rely on different types of medications and different types of technologies and different types of medical philosophy. But it's important to know that not everybody knows everything so that when somebody tells us there is no answer, it's important for us if we feel that intelligence speaking to us in our heart to continue getting second opinions or talking to other people and not finishing with just one and taking no for an answer, like right off the bat. And for me, I actually had to go to many different people. Before I got the answer and I had to go to a different modality in order to get the answer. So the modality that I kept going to was just not a great answer. modality for menstrual cycle health. And I've learned that is that every type of practitioner will provide tools and some of them are more fitting. So for example, if somebody[00:07:00] does have block tubes, they would benefit from IVF and the technology. And it's incredible. So. I want to state that all of them are good. There's many, many different options here, but it's important to figure out what option is best for you. And ultimately I speak very strongly about this is that your intuition is this same intelligence that basically tells your cells what to do. It's based on the same intelligence that tells an animal something's not right, or you should eat this or don't eat for a day and fast. This is an intelligence that guides us towards vitality. So when we're starting to be in a state of listening, we will ultimately be guided. So we can analyze tons of information out there and really go through that rabbit hole of Google when it comes to fertility health and just getting like being information dense and that information oftentimes is can be good, but it can [00:08:00]also take us down this path where it's confusing to us. So while it's important to have information, it's also important to tune in to your own intelligence. And I call the difference between that is vertical knowledge versus horizontal knowledge. So horizontal knowledge is just like what it seems like. It's basically information that you get from person to person. You're getting it from this material world that you're living in. You go to school, you learn. information. You're basically getting information, but you're also getting energy.   I think one of the ways that we learn is invisible. It's not something that we measure, but we must be picking up also on other types of information that we were not realizing. So it's not just even language. It could be body language. It could be energetic.   And then vertical knowledge is something that we can get from downloads. So if you have [00:09:00]meditated in the past, you will know what I'm talking about, because if you meditate long enough, you will start to get. This guidance that you can't quite put your finger on, but you know, it's there and you know, it's real. And those are the signs that you get. Those are the hunches. Those are the guidance. Like something will tell you, Hey, you know, I should call this friend. And then little, Did you know that this friend actually happens to know a great IVF clinic and finds you the best and most aligned doctor that you were looking for. So this is just one example, but that's that intuition, that feeling, that gut. And a lot of us have felt that. And a lot of times it saved us in situations that could have been dangerous. And also something that I, I know I've had, and I've heard a lot of people tell me is that when they don't listen to it, they actually remember afterwards, like, Hey, I knew that something was telling me something like something was telling me not to do something.   And I did it anyway. And I realized [00:10:00] why I felt that feeling. So next time I'm really going to listen. So that is basically your intuition guiding you. And that intuition is not as abstract as it seems.    It's actually real. It's just invisible. It's not something that we can measure, really measure. And although there were some studies that were done on intuition, also premonitions, people would have a certain type of their brain active before they saw a picture that was related to that type of activity. So that has been actually measured and seen in people. And luckily, you know, we're in a place where We are studying a lot of things that show that our minds are very powerful, but this divine intelligence, as I like to call it, I like to call it divine intelligence because it's really something that is greater than anything that we can perceive in our material world is really what the material [00:11:00] world emerges from. And what happens is we often respond or react to what. has already come from that. It's sort of like the tail end, rather than going within to that root. So it's almost like we talk about root cause medicine and root cause medicine is all about going to that initial place where the something emerged and manifested in the body rather than going to the manifestation, just putting a bandaid or cutting it out. We want to know where is it coming from in the first place? Where is this pattern coming from? So we have our own patterns and our life is also a pattern. So just like it manifests in the body, it can manifest in a life and it can go out to infinity. And Chinese medicine always talks about the map. The macro and the micro so that everything is a hologram and what that means is that The part reflects the whole, and the whole could be found in the part. So, [00:12:00] our bodies have their own ecosystem, and nature has its own ecosystem, and just like we have cycles, nature has cycles, and it can go on and on and on into the universe, and you'll see cycles everywhere. And so basically what these medicines and this ancient wisdom is based on is this wisdom of understanding and this insight of really looking and observing nature. And it really comes down to a very elementary thing. It's not complicated as we make it to be. We actually innately understand this. because we are made of it. So we know this in ourselves. So it really comes down to, and I speak about this also in the book is the yin and the yang, this homeostasis, this balance that the body always wants to go to. And that is what makes nature thrive. And so when we get out of balance, by overriding this intelligence. Then that is when we start to [00:13:00] veer out of alignment. But the body's incredibly intelligent because it will let you know when you're out of alignment. It will give you symptoms, it'll give you emotions, it'll give you a feeling of discomfort. It's speaking to you all the time. The problem is that we're not really aware. And the reason we're not aware is because we're distracted by so much of the noise outside of us. And so if you look at a lot of ancient teachings, even though you can consider them horizontal knowledge, a lot of them will point you inwards so that you can connect to that. Vertical knowledge, and that vertical knowledge is where you go within yourself and you download the information from the source of your own intelligence and the intelligence that made you. I'll be honest, I've known this for a long time  but this knowing that I had and that I've had for a long time, didn't initially come from research. It [00:14:00] didn't initially come from the outside. It might've been inspired by some books, but ultimately a lot of it came from my own connection to that source, that source intelligence. And when I got connected to that source intelligence, it. It guided me in my life. So oftentimes fertility health is looked at as the manifestation so the manifestation of the body and how it is translating from the imbalance people are trying to fix  and ultimately, unless you resolve the foundation from where things emerge, then they're going to continue to emerge over and over again. And part of that is also staying in this identification, because once we identify our minds, identify, we create a mental home. And that too can get in the way of fertility health or really any health. And ultimately people think of it as just [00:15:00]fertility health, but fertility health is an emergence and a by product of overall health. So I'll go back to my architecture days. before you build anything, first of all, you go to the blueprint, which is the intelligence, the guidance, and then you go to the foundation and that foundation has to hold the rest of the house. So imagine the foundation as you, as your health and your overall health that relies on so many different things and not just the physical, but also the energetics of your body and the mind and how you feel your spirit.  And so, so many people have come to me and said, I'm doing everything. I'm doing everything right. I'm doing everything and nothing's happening. And as they're telling me, I can feel, I can sense the stress. and the pressure that they feel to try to get all of the checks off the list. So it comes down to diet and also [00:16:00] feeling really stressed out about diet and upset if they ate something bad and detoxing their whole life. And while I'm very big on Those things. And I do talk about them a lot and I have guests that come on and talk about them. Of course they're important, but nothing is so important that it takes out your peace of mind. So if it means you're not doing it perfectly, then don't do it perfectly. allow yourself to feel ease. And then ultimately, I do want to mention that if you are connected to that divine intelligence within you, that divine intelligence will actually guide you towards intuitive eating. It's going to guide you towards what is good for you in your life. And so the more you come from a place of being centered, so this is again from the inside out, not the outside in, when you're coming from within and balancing that internal energy and connecting yourself to that intelligence that knows your highest and [00:17:00] best good, it will guide you towards the right people, the right things, the right information, the right food. So ultimately this book is inspired by that, by how to get back to yourself in order to live not only a fertile life, but your best life.  And so yes, this is definitely a fertility book, but it's a life book too. So instead of focusing on all of the details, which can literally make us crazy  we focus on what it means to come back home and come back home to ourselves and come from a place where we are whole and really wholeness is what healing is. So healing is wholeness. It's coming from a place where we become more consolidated so that our body. aligns to this vitality effortlessly. And part of this is living in flow and having this effortless effort that you will see [00:18:00] oftentimes in nature. Nature doesn't hold on, it moves on. It moves and flows however it needs to go. It's not stagnated. It knows how to overcome challenges.  Even after really difficult challenges like hurricanes, tornadoes, fires, nature will always rebound and that really comes down to this intelligence within it. When we veer away from that nature, we will start to stagnate. And our emotions start to stagnate if they don't move through the way they're supposed to. So I talk about how it is important to validate your feelings, not negate them, validate them. The more we embrace them, the easier it is for them to move. And the importance of honoring ourselves at every moment and the importance of presence. And I share in my book, golden nuggets that I have collected throughout the years and just with my own [00:19:00]studies and learning through doing this kind of work, the powerful medicine that is love and how love can impact your heart and how even modern research is supporting that really proving that the heart does in fact, house the mind. So I take you through a journey inward to understand your own inner terrain and to empower yourself so that you can move on through this journey with a sense of empowerment and also as a cherry on top improved fertility health. I share some of my. My most favorite stories of clients and patients, stories that defy the predictions that lots of these women were given. I share exercises that are simple and easy to do. I share tricks that you can use to really impact the mind almost instantaneously. I feel like this work was definitely a work of the [00:20:00] heart and I feel like not only was there research in it and information that I learned, but a lot of it was divinely guided to the point where something would emerge in my mind. I was like, I need to put this in a chapter. I knew that. The book was not complete until I felt like, okay, I got it all out. And I would literally have these thoughts and something moving me like a little piece of the puzzle that needed to fit in to certain areas of the book. So I do believe that it was divinely guided  as a message for the readers. And even though I give lots of tips on what to do, I also discuss the importance of doing less. I feel like this book was a sacred creation that I got to be part of, and I am so blessed to have had this experience of writing it. And I'm so excited for it to reach you. And so I wanted to share. a couple of really cool things. At the moment that I'm recording this right now, [00:21:00] and hopefully it's not too late. If it is too late, that's not a problem. You can eventually go ahead and find it anyway. It's out. But if you're listening to this close to when I am releasing this episode, Then you are in the window of pre order. So right now, as I'm releasing this episode, the book, the way of fertility is available for pre order. You will be able to get all of this information in the episode notes. So basically what I'm saying is that if anybody goes and pre orders the book and sends me A submission, and you'll see the form, where you prove that you pre ordered the book, and the submission will include your email. You will receive lifetime access to the 2022 and 2023 empower your fertility summits, which has lots of amazing fertility[00:22:00] experts, as well as fertility bonuses. So that's incredible because each one is 97 and you're going to receive two just for pre ordering the book. And by the way, if you pre order the book, you're also getting money off. It's on a discounted price, so you're not only getting a discounted price, but you're also getting lifetime access for two Empower Your Fertility Summits. But that's not all. The first 50 people who submit proof We'll be able to join a live, The Way of Fertility workshop where you will get to ask me questions and we're going to talk about the book and anything that comes to your mind, you will be able to ask me. And of course you're thinking, okay, well, if I pre order, I'm not going to have the book. I'm not going to have the book. I'm not going to have questions. We're not going to do this workshop right away. I will wait a month after, and I will take the first 50 [00:23:00] people, send them an email, and explain exactly when this workshop will take place. So no need to worry about that. But that's not all. I'm also going to enter. Everyone, not just the first 50, every single person is going to be entered into a draw. So whoever submits proof of their pre order in the form that I'm going to be sharing is going to be entered into a draw and the first prize Which is freaking fabulous, not just fabulous, but incredibly generous, and I've been told you're nuts, nuts for doing this, but I'm doing it anyway. So, the first prize will be getting immediate access to my signature fertility program, the Wholesome Fertility Method, of almost 1, [00:24:00] 000. Okay. And then prize number two, two of the winners that are going to be taken from the draw will get immediate access to the Wholesome Moon. So it's my cycle hacking program, which is veered towards optimizing your menstrual cycle. To help with fertility with fertility in mind. So two winners get that, and that's a value of almost 400. So either way you win, because you will get freebies and freebies that costs. Lots of money. So this is a no brainer like literally don't even think about it because it's like you're literally You're already gaining Tons of money right off the bat and you're basically gaining to empower of your fertility summits but you're not for just the amount of money that it costs for the pre order, which is already a discounted price on simply a book. [00:25:00] So here's something that you might want to think about if you have family members that really want you to win and they decide to buy an ebook for you to submit their names and then they get it. So you could do that as well. So this is something that If you feel like somebody's like, okay, I really want you to get this. And I'm going to order a book. So the books are discounted. So, you know, this is just an option, but I know that as much as you are getting value just from submitting proof that you pre ordered the book, you are going to get immense value from the book. Itself.  And I'm going to suggest that you look into this. today because if you don't, it's, you're going to forget about it. Cause that's just the way of the world. You're going to get distracted and you're going to forget about it. So if I were you and if you're on the fertility journey and this is like a win win, I mean, really like a huge win for you, you [00:26:00] might as well just look at it today. Click on the link. It's going to have all the details And don't wait because if you are within the window of pre order, which is the rest of March 2024, and half of April 2024, then you're going to get insane value. However, if you did miss it, you're still going to get insane value from the book itself. So thank you for taking the time and listening to this episode because I'm just so excited for this book to reach the masses because it felt divinely inspired. It was something that I really felt called to, to the point where I feel a sense of relief now that it's out. It felt like something I needed to create. I wanted to inspire hope. I wanted to also reawaken a belief in your own body and I also wanted it to reawaken empowerment. because I feel like we [00:27:00] are just so much more powerful than we've ever imagined. So I share so many reasons on how powerful we are that is supported by some research. And if you do happen to read it, and find something in it inspiring. You can always reach out to me. I love getting DMs on Instagram and I do my best to respond to every one of them.  You can always find me on my handle at the wholesome Lotus fertility.   So thank you for spending this time with me. And I hope you have a beautiful day. 

Holly Leever is a licensed acupuncturist, herbalist, Arvigo abdominal massage therapist and Fertility Awareness Method educator. She works with women to optimize their menstrual cycles and their fertility. She founded her practice, Rosebud Wellness in 2014, and works with clients locally in Ojai, CA and virtually all over the world. When Holly isn’t solving period problems, she is spending time with her sweet daughter, practicing yoga, gardening or cooking.   Website - rosebudwellness.com IG - https://www.instagram.com/rosebud_wellness/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/hollyrosebudwellness Free FAM Video - https://rosebudwellness.com/opt-in-free-training-how-to-track-and-chart-your-cycle-to-support-your-body-for-optimal-health-and-fertility Holly’s Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-fertile-womb-natural-fertility-optimization/id1568908543   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   For Fertility Resources: https://www.thewholesomelotusfertility.com/fertilityresources   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/       Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Holly.   Holly Leever (00:02) Thank you so much, Michelle. I'm really excited to be here.   Michelle (00:05) I'm excited to have a fellow acupuncturist here. It's always fun talking   to my   Holly Leever (00:09) It is   Michelle (00:10) my acupuncture family.   Holly Leever (00:10) Yes. Yeah.   Michelle (00:12) Awesome. So give us a little background on yourself and what got you into women's health specifically, infertility,   acupuncture.   Holly Leever (00:20) so it's a long and winding road, like all of our stories, right? But I started studying acupuncture when I was pretty young. I was just naturally really interested in yoga and holistic health and nutrition. It just kind of came out of the womb that way for some reason. And I went to acupuncture school and I learned about how hormonal birth control...   could potentially be impacting some of the issues that I was experiencing at the time. And when you're really young, you can get away with a lot. And so I didn't feel terrible, but I hadn't had a natural period. I probably had three in my whole life at that point and I was 24. So I started, yeah.   Michelle (01:10) Wait, so give us a background. So when did you first get your period? When did you first start and then when did you get on the birth control pill?   Holly Leever (01:18) Yeah, so that's the tricky part, the annoying part, is that I got my first period when I was 14, and I was already on birth control by the time I was 15. So I don't remember exactly how many months, and I would only get it every three months. So I went to the gynecologist and I was like, oh, is that, I mean, I had enough of an awareness to know that it was supposed to happen every month at the time, and they were just like, oh, that's really...   Michelle (01:29) Uh.   Mm-hmm.   Holly Leever (01:46) problematic and here you can just have the birth control pill to regulate your cycle, of course. And I did have pretty significant period pain too. I think it was just young bodies don't just start menstruating perfectly right away and having significant period pain I think also was partially related to my diet at the time. I grew up really just eating   Michelle (02:00) Yeah.   Holly Leever (02:10) Total crap food, just convenience foods, only snacky kind of things, really had no guidance around nutrition at all. And I think the period pain was partially related to that, and also just being young and my body doing something new for the first time. I did become sexually active really early too, at 15. And so I do think it was maybe helpful that I didn't get pregnant when I was 15 years old. And...   Michelle (02:36) Yeah.   Holly Leever (02:38) I wish that I had a little bit more education about what it was actually doing to my body. I had a lot of emotional struggles as a teenager and who knows if that's just being a teenager, how that manifested for me or how much of it was related to synthetic hormone exposure at such a young age. And so then I developed a really severe eating disorder during the end of high school, really through college. So that was part of...   Even the times, sometimes I would stop taking birth control within that nine year timeframe of from 15 to 24. Sometimes I would stop taking it if I wasn't in a relationship and I really just never would have a period. So it was almost like that part of me was completely removed from my experience of being in a female body. So then when I went to acupuncture school, as I'm sure you know, and maybe a lot of your listeners do too, that...   it's a really central piece of understanding a female's overall health and wellbeing is what their period looks like. We were talking about the color of the blood and how frequently it comes. And I mean, there are so much more that I know about it now as a fertility awareness method educator, but even that little seed of women's period is really important for assessing their health. I was sort of like, oh.   I guess I'm completely missing that whole part of the equation of, you know, being able to really understand this medicine. And so I stopped taking the pill really immediately after that I found that out. I remember that it was, I started school in September and then by October, November, I stopped taking it, just completely stopped taking it and never, and have not taken it since.   But then I didn't have my period for a few years after I stopped taking it because I was still struggling with my eating disorder. And one of the things that I find really interesting about eating disorders and under nutrition is that people think sort of like you have to have this like raging, horrible eating disorder, which at times I really did. I was very severely anorexic at times.   Michelle (04:34) Mm hmm.   Holly Leever (04:53) And at other times, not so much. Like you could look at me and think like, oh, that looks like just like a healthy woman. You wouldn't really think she's, you know, nutrient depleted, but it was for me, always this relationship with food, you know, not prioritizing optimal nutrition was sort of the issue for me. So it would be, maybe my weight would look okay.   Michelle (05:19) Right.   Holly Leever (05:22) but I wasn't getting in the amount of protein and fat and carbohydrate structure and having regular meals and things like that. That was really the issue for me. So a lot of my time through acupuncture school, that four years that I was in acupuncture school was spent trying to figure that out. And sometimes I would get a period and I'd be like, oh, what was like the perfect cocktail of things that I did that made that happen? And it was just...   So, I mean, now to me, it's so obvious. It was that I let go of the reins a little bit and ate a little bit more. And then I would just be like, oh my God, that was too much. And I would go too far and freak out. And then I would lose my period again. So it's just kind of very intermittently getting it here and there. Then I finally went into residential treatment center a few times for my eating disorder. And that was the catalyst really for...   Michelle (05:59) Mm-hmm.   Holly Leever (06:20) being able to kick it finally. And it wasn't until I was 32, so not terribly long ago, that I started learning the fertility awareness method because I had been single for a lot of my life. I think anybody that has struggled with an eating disorder understands that it's very isolating experience that you kind of don't wanna date. You don't want anybody to look at or touch your body. And I was feeling interested in maybe   Like, can I have children and can I have a family? I'm 32, like, what am I doing with my life? And although I didn't have a partner at the time, I was kind of getting curious about my fertility and if I had kind of destroyed my body at that point, you know, it's like, has it been too long? And so for anybody that has struggled with hypothalamic amenorrhea, which really is what that is, whether it's an eating disorder or if it's just disordered.   or under eating or over exercise, stress, like some combination of those things. Anybody that has had that experience, especially if it's been for a significant amount of time, which for me, it's kind of like 10 to 15 years, like most of my adult life was spent not menstruating. And then to fast forward to the end of my story, I do have a daughter. So, when I was 32, I was in this place of...   Michelle (07:18) Right.   Holly Leever (07:45) I had just gotten out of my most recent residential stay. Every time I would go, I would get my period back. It was very obviously nutritionally related. So we can take all these teas and even getting acupuncture. I got so much acupuncture. I was on so many herbal formulas throughout acupuncture school and I just needed to eat more. And they would always say that to me. And you're only able to receive and really integrate.   Michelle (07:51) Mm-hmm. Wow.   Holly Leever (08:14) what's being recommended to you when it's the right time for you or whatever. So it is what it is, but that was really what my system needed. And so when I was 32 is really when a big transformation happened in my life where I really kicked my eating disorder. It's not something that you just all of a sudden are cured from, but that was a really pivotal time where I haven't really looked back.   Michelle (08:18) Yeah.   Holly Leever (08:44) Um, since that it's only kind of been getting better since then. And I started learning the fertility awareness method with my teacher, Lisa Hendricks and Jack. So she has, she hasn't made she, maybe she's been on this podcast. I don't know. I think you've been on hers. I know too. Um, but yeah, fertility Friday is an awesome podcast for anybody out there. I it's she's really, oh, that's so. Yeah.   Michelle (08:54) Love her. Yes, yeah.   It inspired me to start mine, my podcast. Oh yeah, I love her. I got so much information from her podcast. It was just, she's such a wealth of knowledge.   Holly Leever (09:14) She... And that podcast is the tip of the iceberg in terms of what that woman knows. It's really, really amazing. And yeah, so I started to study with her really just personally at first. I was like, okay, I want to be in a relationship and I don't want to accidentally get pregnant and I don't ever want to go back on birth control. So like, what do I do?   Michelle (09:22) I know.   Holly Leever (09:41) And so I started learning about the fertility awareness method from her. And I took her fertility awareness mastery program where you can, you know, she had two groups at the time. I'm not sure how she structures it now, but one was like the pregnancy prevention group and the other was the conception group. So I was in the pregnancy prevention group and was just learning so much about. How my body worked and you know, what it meant.   that my period would just go missing and also gave me a lot of insight into sort of like catching myself before I go too far. I think anybody that has had an experience with an eating disorder or being underweight, there's this tendency that even now I still have to be really conscious of making sure that I'm getting like...   planning meals and like really prioritizing that because my tendency is still to under eat because it was so ingrained in me for such a long period of time. So for example, in the fertility awareness method, now I can see like if my temperatures start to get a little below what's more optimal or like if my mucus pattern is a little bit different because I've learned all of these like subtle details of learning how to read.   Michelle (10:46) Hmm.   Holly Leever (11:03) what's going on with my fertility. It really opened up a whole other space of just in the hypothalamic amenorrhea space, which is actually, it seems kind of like it's becoming more of a hot topic thing these days where people are like actually specializing in just hypothalamic amenorrhea. A lot of times the focus is on the period. It's like we're getting the period back, but it's sometimes missing.   that actually you can't even have a period if it's not preceded by ovulation. And if we're not tracking ovulation with mucus and basal body temperature, potentially LH strips or OPKs, I use those in my practice too sometimes, cervical position. If we're not tracking all of these things, we can be having bleeds even at regular intervals, which I do think this is part of what was happening to me. I'd have these like random bleeds where I'd be like,   what did I do right this time that I had that random bleed? It may have been an ovulatory. So all that means just for, I know you know what it means, but for anybody that's listening, if you don't know, it just basically means that you are bleeding, but it hasn't been preceded by an ovulatory phase, basically. So you didn't actually ovulate. Your estrogen levels just built up enough to build up an endometrial lining, and then it's just being...   shed, but it is not an indication that your body's actually going through a very health promoting process of ovulation before that. So anyway, that was kind of my basic story into learning fertility awareness. And now, several years later, I had actually started...   working with it a little bit with my clients. I was trying to have them do temperature and track their mucus. And what I was noticing is that you can read from a textbook. And I even learned from Lisa, I learned sort of like the basics and I learned how my body works. But it's really different to learn about the basics from a book and other like online resources. And then also just learning about your own body and being able to apply that in working.   with actual patients because what I have found in my practice is that many of them don't follow and including me, I definitely have never followed what's in the textbook. So I've never ovulated on day 14. I've never had a 28 day or 30. Maybe the shortest cycle I've ever had is 30 days and that was like miraculous. So yeah, I mean, I will say that I was feeling somewhat limited and then Lisa created this.   Michelle (13:22) Yeah.   Mm-hmm   Holly Leever (13:49) program for practitioners called the fertility awareness mastery mentorship. So it's different from just the, like for women to learn about their own cycles. It's a practitioner program for women that want to learn or not. Yeah, it is women only, but for women that want to learn how to incorporate it into their existing women's healthcare practice.   And I actually wanted to do it the first year that she launched it, but I had just had my daughter. So that goes back to my personal stories that I did end up meeting my daughter's dad and I did get pregnant and had a healthy pregnancy after 10 to 15 years of amenorrhea and thinking that my body was probably broken.   being told by doctors that my body was probably going to be broken or I was going to need fertility drugs and things like that. I didn't do anything other than optimize my nutrition. Even now with how much I've learned from Lisa and so many other resources since that time, which was she's going to be four next month.   there are things I would have done differently in terms of optimizing nutrition and lifestyle and other things that maybe I think could have made it even more wonderful. But I had a really healthy pregnancy, really wonderful birth at home. And yeah, I'm just really amazed by the human body that when you give it what it needs, it will perform.   I don't know, perform isn't really the right word, but function optimally. And fertility is part of optimal function for women, whether they want to get pregnant or not. I mostly work with women that want to get pregnant. So that's sort of the lens in which I see everything. Yeah.   Michelle (15:36) Yeah.   Me too. But yeah, I mean that I always say it's just a reflection of overall health. If it doesn't have the resources or if it's at a deficit, it's going to, you know, it's not going to give you what you want or it's not going to be functioning optimally and it's definitely not going to prioritize reproductive health. That's for sure. So that's, and a lot of what you're saying is pretty much my history. I mean, I had the same thing like three months cycles.   Holly Leever (16:08) Okay.   Michelle (16:16) And this is what I, you know, for a couple of years, and then I went to the doctor, he put me on the birth control pill and it was just like on and off, on and on and off. Um, there was a time where I also under eight, I was in college and I guess I probably did. I mean, I never really called it that, but I had a bit of an eating disorder myself. There were times where I was like, I want to, you know, look really thin. Like this next person that just is genetically a lot thinner build than I am.   And it was kind of like this thing I just got in my head. And so for a little while, I mean, it was on and off for me, but it definitely impacted my hormones. It was all over the place. So.   Holly Leever (16:54) I mean, even what has been normalized in our culture, like in, I remember magazines when I, I don't know what it kind of trashes in there these days, but I actually was reading them when I was in high school or whatever. And they would talk about like 1200 calorie diets. That's an eating disorder. If I eat that amount of calories, I'm very, very underweight. I mean, maybe somebody could do that if they're like four feet tall or something, but.   Michelle (17:12) Yeah.   Yeah, no, I mean, we need the   nutrients for sure. I mean, that's what it is. It really comes down to that. It comes down to energy. And so it's not even about eating, it's about what you're eating. Because as we know, just like a chi in the body, food has chi as well. And so there's some food that's kind of very low chi, very low energy or vitality, let's say.   Holly Leever (17:25) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Michelle (17:45) and versus live whole foods which are way more nourishing and nutrient dense for the body. So those are all important aspects. But as you were talking, you know, and this is something that I've thought about recently, and it's not something that's often talked about, but we're in the fertility world. And do you tend to see, because there's such like, there are a lot of rules, you know, you have to like be, you know, avoid   toxins and you have to eat certain foods and you have to do this and that and the other. And I feel like if you have a tendency or have any history with eating disorder or some sense of obsessive compulsion for your life, it can trigger that. Being on the fertility journey and focusing, even if you're trying quote unquote naturally, it can trigger that feeling. And that can be very...   stressful on top of like everything else.   Holly Leever (18:43) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, man, this is something I think about pretty much every day. Because, yeah, my experience in residential treatment for my eating disorder was very much based on, I guess, conventional guidelines of optimal nutrition, like low fat and pretty carb heavy.   and just kind of, and very weight goal based. And at the time, I think that was what I needed. I needed to just like know rules and they would have things like fun foods and there's a perspective of choosing relationship with other people over your eating disorder. So for example, if your friends want to go out for ice cream and you're like, oh no, I'm like too, I mean, this is...   very much something that I experienced, like totally not gonna go to that. I do not wanna eat ice cream or, you know, there were times that I would go and just not eat it or whatever. And so the choosing relationship was something that really resonated with me. And now I think about a lot too, with a young daughter of how I want to model things for her. And so I will say that my own approach to food, like for myself,   Michelle (20:05) Yeah.   Holly Leever (20:11) now is one of really trying to get optimal nutrition in when it's available to me, and also not to demonize anything primarily for her. And yeah, and also for her relationship with other people and knowing that, you know, if a friend gives you something, even if it's not like the healthiest thing ever.   that you know that your body is strong because it's mostly exposed to really nutrient dense foods. And the tricky part about that, because when I was in treatment, it was definitely like, this is what I'm doing right now. I'm like recovering from my eating disorder. So there's like the psychological piece of it, where I do think that it can be helpful in that kind of situation where like, yes, just get yourself to do the things that are hard for you.   so that you can overcome this psychological aspect of it. I had someone on my podcast that focuses a lot on just like body neutrality, not necessarily related to fertility, but it feels relevant because one of the things she struggled with was rheumatoid arthritis. And if she eats gluten or dairy, it flares it and it really hurts. And she said that she prioritizes her mental health over that.   physical experience. So she just still eats gluten and dairy, even though she knows it makes it worse. So that's something that's really empowering, I think, for people that if you know how things are affecting you and you're, you get to make that choice about like what the priority is. So for me, I, I like to feel really good. And part of my job is relies on me feeling really good.   energetically, you know, when I'm doing acupuncture, I do feel, or just being present with my client, like it feels to me, I know that I feel better if I'm eating a higher protein, higher fat, and that I'm eating mostly whole foods. So that's, that's a priority for me. And I do have to be thoughtful about like, is this an eating disorder? Like, am I kind of making myself crazy? Thanks.   So in the HA space, a lot of it is just like, fill yourself with, and I talked about this on my own podcast and Lisa's podcast. And my hope is that it's not triggering for anybody that's going through that experience because I do think it can be relevant and helpful to like eat, I'm trying not to say specific foods because I don't wanna demonize anyone food, but to eat things that are, you know, like more processed or something like that.   that you really like that brings a lot of joy to your life and also helps you to get over the psychological aspect of it. I think there's space for that. I don't think that just cramming yourself full of things that make you feel crappy, which was my first experience in residential. I was there for a really long time, for four months I was living in this place with this   you know, not so health promoting food and very based on like weight gain. And I, I did get my period back and I do think it was a step on the journey. And I, I feel. I also, after that left and lost a ton of weight, even more than I had before. So I, I went kind of the opposite direction because I was pushed so far.   Michelle (23:55) Bye.   Holly Leever (23:55) away from where I really wanted to be, I felt awful. And I don't think that is optimal health or fertility if you feel awful. But it's such a nuanced conversation. And this is where I think the individualized work in fertility is so important because I can say all these things about, you know, like optimize getting 100 to 150 grams of protein per day and having a balance of nutrition or recommend.   certain dietary resources like Real Food for Pregnancy is one of my favorite books. And I'm not sure if I'm allowed to talk about the new book yet, but there's another new book that's coming out soon that is a really great resource that I've just recently read through and been wowed by. But it is also about making it...   Michelle (24:34) Mm-hmm.   Holly Leever (24:46) it fitting into your life. So one of the things that I do a lot is I have women fill out a food log and also like a lifestyle log of how they're sleeping, what their screen time is like, what they're eating, you know, any number of things, what the exercise level is like. And then I make specific recommendations for each individual woman about what will be most supportive for her and what actually feels possible for her.   Michelle (25:13) Mm-hmm.   Holly Leever (25:14) If a woman is super busy and traveling all the time, she's not going to be able to eat like I do because I'm home cooking all the time. I'm home a lot of the time. That's not possible for everybody. So I also have a lot of ideas and ways that I work with women on getting in optimal nutrition that doesn't have to be done in such a specific way where you're tied to the kitchen all the time unless you want to be.   Michelle (25:20) Right.   Holly Leever (25:43) Yeah, it's a very nuanced, nuanced conversation that in an HA situation in particular, really requires individualized support, in my opinion.   Michelle (25:55) Yeah, for sure. I mean, the way I look at it in general is it's all a strategy. So that's how I see it with every patient. It really depends on their circumstance and what they feel and ultimately like what aligns for them. And if it's too much of a push, then people retract and it's not realistic. So everything has to be small steps to get to that point. Building a foundation, that's for sure.   Holly Leever (26:22) Yeah, one of the things that I shared about when I recorded my own podcast about HA is that if I went from, you know, where I was at, the first time I went to treatment was when I was 29. If I were to contemplate eating what I do now, back then, there's no way I could do that. There's no way. I needed to have these like bridges throughout my journey. And I do think that one of the things   Michelle (26:45) Yeah.   Holly Leever (26:52) found really helpful during my own, it wasn't really a fertility journey because I was sort of just doing it anyway, like not necessarily thinking about, it wasn't like I went through a long, like trying to conceive phase. I just did get pregnant because I had already optimized my fertility because I saw its relevance to my overall health.   I would maybe do a few things a little bit differently now.   Michelle (27:21) Yeah, I mean, it's always that way. I think we look back and there's so many things that we could have done differently. And, you know, that's, I guess that's hindsight. Hindsight is so perfectly clear versus like looking into the future. And that's, I think that really teaches us to be easy on ourselves and give us ourselves some grace and, and that I think is what helps the recovery is just.   Holly Leever (27:24) Yeah.   Yes, exactly.   Michelle (27:49) giving yourself that love and grace and acceptance, and also meeting yourself where you are. I think that's ultimately, it's very healing to do so. It feels more soothing, honestly, on the soul and on the body. And it's more realistic. It's more, it's something that you can really adopt and take in to your life.   Holly Leever (27:55) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Absolutely, yes.   Michelle (28:11) in a way that's going to last. So as far as, well, fertility awareness is amazing because I think a lot of people don't realize just how powerful it is. But for people who are not as familiar with it, what is it besides I think people think of the BBT, like basal body temperature charting, besides that obviously it's so much more.   Holly Leever (28:23) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Michelle (28:34) I look at it like a body awareness.   mindfulness practice of your menstrual cycle.   Holly Leever (28:39) Absolutely. Yeah. So fertility awareness, like the term fertility awareness, is kind of just having a basic understanding of how your fertility works. But the fertility awareness method, there are actually many different types and I'm not an expert on all of them. I have been trained by Lisa, so she's been very much informed by the justice method, but she doesn't exclusively teach that.   And it is a symptom thermal method, what I have been trained in. So that means we're tracking symptoms like cervical position and cervical mucus and thermal temperature. So we're tracking BBT. So there are other methods that only use mucus or use urine metabolites to test hormones and things like that. So what I'm sharing about is purely based on the style that I've been trained in. So there's definitely differences and definitely differences in the way that they chart that we all.   chart things, so it's a little bit tricky to interpret another method's charting because they don't always line up perfectly. But the method that I've been trained in is pretty similar to the Taking Charge of Your Fertility, which most people that know anything about fertility and fertility awareness know about that book. And that was my first exposure.   I don't know what your acupuncture education was like, but I know that all we learned about was BBT and it was sort of this like general awareness that this could tell women about their fertility, but there was really not any more detail given about all of the implications of what you can actually learn from the fertility awareness method, not just from a fertility perspective, but also from a health and metabolic function.   perspective. So yeah, so we're tracking BBT, basal body temperature. So that's just your waking temperature. So you take your temperature first thing when you wake up in the morning before you drink or talk or go to the bathroom or anything like that. And in the method I teach, there are some very specific guidelines around that, that I'm not going to go into everything because we'd be here forever. That's a lot of the work that I do. So that's the first part of it. And then from that, you create a chart.   Michelle (30:51) I'm sorry.   Holly Leever (30:58) you know, an XY graph, and then there's the cycle days and the temperature. I use Fahrenheit because I'm in America, but there's also Celsius charts available. I use the Read Your Body app with my clients or paper charts. I don't ever recommend using any of the apps that have any predictions. I used to use another app, but I just recently learned that they started adding predictions into their method.   And so I don't recommend that one anymore. So it's a big bummer when that happens. And if women have enough awareness about how it actually works, then if, as long as they can ignore the predictions and the algorithms and things, that's fine. But especially as you're learning, it makes things way more confusing. I've had women that have, they have like two different apps and then they're also taking their temperature and they're so confused because they're like.   Michelle (31:53) Yeah.   Holly Leever (31:56) This one tells me I'm ovulating here. And then my chart says something different. And I'm like, OK, that's because there's a lot of inaccuracy here. And the best way to know what's going on inside of your body in terms of your fertility is to actually track it manually yourself. Lisa compares it to the weather. If you can look on.   the weather prediction app or whatever and see what they think is gonna be happening, or you could walk outside and go see what's happening. You know? So that's really what the, I love that comparison because it's such an obvious thing. Like nobody would be like, is it raining? Or like they would just go outside. So the other part of it is cervical mucus tracking, which that is a lot of the education that is different. Learning how to do BBT is really pretty straightforward.   Michelle (32:27) I like that. That's good.   Holly Leever (32:50) And once you learn how to do it and the things that can impact your temperature, like the amount that you sleep. So you do need to have, in the method that I've been trained in, five hours of uninterrupted sleep, there's other methods that say that less sleep than that is fine. So I always recommend just doing your best and taking your temperature and always noting if there's something out of the ordinary.   but it can be impacted by alcohol, traveling, so many different things. So those are all things that I teach people about and then they learn to mark in their chart so that we can most accurately analyze what's going on with temperature. But it really is pretty straightforward. Like in a healthy cycle, you'll have a temperature shift and it will stay high throughout the entire luteal phase. So that's from ovulation until the day before the next period. And it should be within an optimal range   the pre-ovulatory phase and in the post-ovulatory phase. So that's part of the work that I do, which is an indication of metabolic function. And that's one of the reasons that I'm so obsessed with talking about protein is because getting adequate protein regularly throughout the day is really important for metabolic function. And that will show up in your temperature.   Also thyroid function too will usually show up in the temperature too, but we need to make sure that we're accurately tracking temperature first before we can draw any diagnostic conclusions from what we're seeing in the chart. So cervical mucus is the other part of it. So we have a very, in this method, a very specific way of collecting cervical mucus. So I use external wiping.   So usually when women will come to me, they'll be like, I saw this in my underwear and I pulled this out of my vagina. And you know, like there's, they're so confused about what they're actually tracking. And there's not any, there's not like a consistent way that they're tracking it to reduce the variables in kind of assessing what's really going on. So we use this external wiping method and then looking at the toilet paper and.   taking the mucus off of the toilet paper and stretching it between your fingers. So it is a more intimate type of fertility awareness, but it doesn't require you to actually insert your finger unless you're tracking cervical position. And as someone, I totally left this out of my own story, but it was a significant part of my story that I had really painful sex and the insertion of anything, a finger tampon, like...   Michelle (35:19) Yeah.   Holly Leever (35:20) really painful for me for a lot of my life, which I think was also connected to under nutrition and having such low estrogen levels and also being on birth control can shrink your vaginal canal, which I only learned within the past couple of years. And I think that was part of what was happening for me. So for other women that I've worked with, it's painful for them to insert their finger. So we don't use cervical position tracking and   Michelle (35:46) Right.   Holly Leever (35:49) it's really great that they don't have to do the internal checks for cervical mucus either for that reason. And it can also be more confusing if you're doing internal checks because there isn't really ever a day that your vagina is totally dry. So it makes your dry days harder to identify. And I mean, this is where there is a difference between textbook learning and actual in the field experience.   Michelle (36:07) Mm-hmm.   Holly Leever (36:19) in, if you look in a textbook, it's just like, Oh, they, a woman has her period, then she has dry days, then she has mucus, then she ovulates, then she goes back to dry days. And most of the women in my practice cycles don't look like that when we first start working together. And part of that is, you know, I've talked about my eating disorder, but I, there's a, most of the women I work with are nutrient depleted.   And it's not because they're intentionally trying to under eat or lose weight most of the time, it's because there hasn't been adequate education on what is actually optimal nutrition for a human. You know, we've just been so, I know in my family, it was just like convenience based. And a lot of the women that I work with, it's very much convenience based. So maybe they're getting enough overall calories, but they're not getting.   Michelle (36:53) Mm-hmm.   Holly Leever (37:11) actual nutrients from those calories, for example. My friend just sent me a reel from this guy and he was like an avocado and this like Snickers thing have like the same amount of calories. But in terms of nutrient density, there's really no comparison of what that, the message that that's going to send to your body about what to do with that food. So.   Michelle (37:27) Right.   Yeah.   Holly Leever (37:36) I went off into a little nutrition tangent again, but it's so relevant to cervical mucus production. So I see all sorts of issues with cervical mucus production, whether it's limited or if the mucus phase is too long, if there is mucus in the post-ovulatory phase. And this is the difference between taking her, Lisa's, class in learning how to chart my own cycle versus learning how to apply it for many, many women. This is what we...   Michelle (37:41) Bye.   Holly Leever (38:05) learn about is how to really get into the nitty gritty details about like, what does this mucus mean? And the other part that I'll say about fertility awareness is that although we're getting into the nitty gritty details about BBT and cervical mucus and cervical position, any individual like day or data point is sort of irrelevant outside of the context of the full chart. It's just like Chinese medicine. I'm sure that   Michelle (38:33) Yeah.   Holly Leever (38:34) people are like, I have a headache, what would you do for that? And you're like, do you have like an hour for me to explain to you all of the potential causes of headaches? Because that's really, you know, we're not looking at symptoms on an individual basis, we're looking at the overall pattern of like what is causing that for that individual person? And so the chart really feels very similar to Chinese medicine in that way, in that it gives us...   Michelle (38:43) Yeah, it's true.   Yeah.   Holly Leever (39:03) It's like its whole own diagnostic process, which is really fun to compare with also the Chinese medicine diagnosis too. So I love kind of weaving those two things together too.   Michelle (39:18) I'll be honest, it makes it easier for me to do my job. I can see what's going on. I can see if I need to increase some young herbs, increase the heat in the body. And then I'll see after a while, things shift based on what I do, which is based on what I saw early on. So it's huge because it's such a great tool. So when people come in to see me and they say, I have a couple of months worth of my   Holly Leever (39:27) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Michelle (39:46) charting, I'm like so excited. So it gives me a lot to work with.   Holly Leever (39:48) Yes. I mean, working with fertility, I started working with fertility pretty early on in my practice, and I just started really incorporating fertility awareness in the way that I do it now within the past couple of years. And it was like doing it blind before I had as much information as I do now. If you don't have a chart, you don't even know if they're ovulating. So-   Michelle (40:11) Yeah, it's a game changer.   Yeah, I mean, you could do sometimes like a progesterone metabolites, not so much LH, you know, just to make sure to confirm, but, you know, there's definitely like other things and other more expensive kits that you can get, but I mean, this is just gold standard. It's like, it's so great, you know, it's such a great way to look at it. It gives you so much insight, it connects you with your own body and   Holly Leever (40:18) OPKs. Yep, right.   Mm-hmm.   That's it.   Michelle (40:40) I think it's amazing, but I could talk to you for hours, Holly. I mean, this is so interesting. There's so many things that we can obviously talk about, but it's so important for people to learn this and to know that it is something that can actually benefit them. I think some people get really stressed out by it initially. And I say it's the same thing as like meditation. When you sit down to meditate, at first it's uncomfortable or you're starting something new, it's going to be uncomfortable.   Holly Leever (40:58) Hehehe   Michelle (41:07) But if you can kind of get through that discomfort, eventually on the other side, it's gonna give you so much more. It's gonna benefit you in so many ways that you didn't even imagine.   Holly Leever (41:17) and sometimes the overwhelm is because they don't understand it. That's what I found, is that people will be reading into each little peak and valley in the chart, and they're just kind of like, I don't even know what it means. And that's really stressful. And if you... I don't... I mean, I could tell people it within an hour session how to...   Michelle (41:23) Yeah.   Yeah.   Oh yeah, because...   Holly Leever (41:45) actually interpret the BBT and they could really get a lot of, it's just like going to a meditation class. If you learn just actually what is happening and what's normal, that can really help to sort of calm your nervous system about the overwhelm around it.   Michelle (42:03) Yeah. And also knowing that eventually it's going to get easier. It's just, it's like anything. It's like anything new eventually does get easier. So for people who do want to hear your podcast or reach out to you and work with you, how can they find you?   Holly Leever (42:07) Let's move.   Yeah, so I'm very active on Instagram. I'm on Instagram at rosebud underscore wellness. I also have a website rosebudwellness.com. And I do have a free fertility awareness for conception video on my Instagram linked there. Maybe we could also link it in the show notes. I could send it to you. So it's just a 30 minute video kind of going through a little bit more details about what's involved.   So I know that fertility awareness is not for everyone. Not everybody's gonna want to get into this level of detail. So that video is really helpful for people to kind of get a feel for it and see like, does that sound crazy or could I maybe try that? So, yeah.   Michelle (43:05) That's awesome. Well, this is great because people are listening to this. They're probably really curious about it. So it's awesome to have a free resource. So thank you for that. Um, so Holly, thank you so much for coming on. This is so great. I mean, I can talk to you for way um, than we have time, but this is just great information. I'm sure so many people got so much value from this. So thank you for coming on today.   Holly Leever (43:13) Yeah.   My pleasure, thank you so much for having me.

I'm sure you've been hearing a lot about egg quality if you're searching the internet and trying to figure out how you can improve your fertility health.   In this episode, I'm going to be talking about what egg quality is and four different ways that you can improve it. So egg quality refers to not only the chromosomal health, but it also corresponds to something called mitochondrial health.    I will be covering: What contributes to egg quality Ways you can improve egg quality Why the digestive system is so important Research that shows certain exercises that improve mitochondrial function My fertility book “The Way of Fertility” is going to launch soon and I would love to have you on the launch team!!! You’ll get to read it first! The application is more formality! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/TWOF-launch-team-application Be sure to tune in!   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:   https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/           Transcript:   [00:00:00] So I'm sure you've been hearing a lot about egg quality, especially if you're searching the internet and trying to figure out how you can improve your fertility health. And you've probably even seen the book, It Starts With The Egg, which I highly recommend if you haven't already read it, it has amazing, amazing information. And today I'm going to be talking about what egg quality is and four different ways that you can improve it.   So egg quality refers to how chromosomally normal an egg is. And it also, besides just the chromosomes, it also corresponds to something called mitochondrial health. And mitochondria is It's an organelle in the cell, so it's basically a part of a cell, and it's considered the powerhouse that produces something called ATP, and ATP are basically energy units. And through ATP and the energy, if you [00:01:00] want to compare it to Chinese medicine speak, it really comes down to qi.   It's like life force vitality, basically, and how do we produce it? I will talk about that and how to really protect it and support it. So. So Chinese medicine, we talk a lot about qi and a lot about the energy and a lot of the ways that we do support qi. One of the ways is through nutrition. So there's many different ways to really support it. And it's found that mitochondrial health declines with age, as well as oxidative stress. So, you'll find a lot of times oxidative stress increases with age.   So, a lot of the anti aging market focuses antioxidants. So antioxidants basically means that it's protecting the cells from oxidative stress. And the mitochondria really is at the heart of it. And the mitochondria can be [00:02:00] protected through these antioxidants. So the antioxidants can protect the mitochondria. And then it provides more energy units in the cells. And then when that is the case, it will help the cells to develop more correctly. So it'll give the energy basically to the cells to fix themselves. So even eggs that end up being really good quality, they're not necessarily always perfect. It's just that if it has a lot of energy And it is able to basically correct itself.   So that's why there's always this kind of controversy with checking or testing embryos because sometimes they can start out not being 100 percent normal. But part of the process that it goes through is that as it grows, it can normalize itself. And in order to do that, it really has to have robust energy to do so. So in a sense, really, technically speaking, you can actually. [00:03:00] Decrease or reverse your biological age through choices that you make with your nutrition, with your lifestyle, with the movements you choose, the exercise you have, and your mindset. Lowering stress. I mean, there's many different things that you can do to improve your overall energy and I'm going to be talking a little bit about chi and mitochondria because it's kind of like one in the same. It's just described in a different way. So there are definitely things that you can do to support it. So I'm going to be covering four and number one. Okay. It all starts with nutrition. Nutrition is really important when it comes to Chinese medicine. The spleen and the stomach have a very important role and they play a role in the digestive system.   And each organ or organ pair has a direction. And in Chinese medicine, the spleen and stomach are in the center. [00:04:00] So a lot of different ones will be like east, west, south, north. And The spleen and stomach are the center, and that is actually very symbolic because they're really the center and the heart of everything as far as post Heaven qi, which is basically the energy that we have and create after we're born.   The pre Heaven qi, and I've talked about this before in past episodes, is all about genetics. However, now in modern day science, we know that there's something called epigenetics and our choices and what we do with our food choices and our lifestyle choices can impact how our genes express themselves. So the same way that it impacts how our genes express itself, it also impacts the genetic protection of our cells.   Our cells are just tiny little versions of ourselves. And a lot of those make up who we are. [00:05:00] So it really comes down to our cellular expression. So if we can do that for our own cells, of course, the important cell is our egg cell. But it also for men is the sperm cell. So a lot of what I'm saying for women. does actually also apply to men with sperm health.   So nutrition is very, very important when it comes to fertility health and protecting our egg health and supporting it because number one, it is really the source of where we get our chi. It's the source of where a woman builds blood and both of those are really important when it comes to fertility health because reproductive health requires a lot of energy.   And the proof to it is that egg cells have hundreds of thousands of more mitochondria than regular cells. Regular cells can have a couple of thousand, [00:06:00] depending on the importance of the cells. So the heart cells a little bit more than a regular cell in the body, but an egg cell has the most. We're talking really, really a lot of mitochondria because it's important for it to be equipped with a ton of energy in order to produce new life. And this is why I always talk about The energy that a person has is really, really important. And when a person's energy stores are depleted, it can impact fertility health because the body's not going to prioritize reproduction.   It's going to prioritize survival. And I say this over and over again, because it is such an important point to keep in mind. So when it comes to eating, it's important to really consider number one, your gut health and eating more antioxidants and. I'm kind of throwing in an extra one, the gut health, the gut health really is a reflection of your spleen and stomach condition and it's important because everything that I'm going to be talking about really, as far as the [00:07:00] nutrition goes, depends on your gut health.   So if the gut health is optimal, it's able to really transform the food into energy. So number one, Eat more antioxidants. So antioxidant rich foods are super important. So I'm going to give you a couple of examples of antioxidant rich foods. So something you probably have heard before, a lot of people talk about it, but things like berries are probably higher on the antioxidant level. When it comes to fruits, so things like strawberries, blackberries, blueberries, you know, all those dark colors and pigments in the food come from antioxidants, so berries are really important, but then also ones that are not as common, things like acai, tea, tea, Has been shown actually in CCRM.   They have their own acai Supplement and they did a study to show that it improves egg quality. So that's really [00:08:00] huge and that's something that you can include in your diet and then foods rich in beta Carotene such as carrots and sweet potatoes are really important and dark leafy greens so you'll see like dark leafy greens such as spinach And chards, and also beets are really important. Now, keep in mind too, beets are root vegetables, and what does that mean? They grow in the earth, and earth is an element that is connected to the spleen and stomach. Earth also has spore based probiotics. And that's actually where spore based probiotics come from, comes from the soil.   So that's really, really important if you want to help nourish that energy of digestion. So beets are really important and they also give a groundedness to your energetic being. So you really do feel more grounded. When it comes to Ayurvedic medicine, they always talk about the different doshas that [00:09:00] people have, doshas or body types, and they also have elements.   And the dosha that is vata, which is a little bit more air, it doesn't have as much grounding benefits from something like beats because they are getting more earth energy. So earth energy is always going to support your spleen and stomach, which is always going to support the wellbeing of your digestive system.   Another thing that has tremendous amounts of antioxidants is dark chocolate. So you can get raw cacao that is not processed. And that doesn't have added sugar or dairy, and you can mix it in and make certain foods that are healthier that don't have sugar. So there are ways to get it without having to get the sugar, which you'll typically find in like chocolate bars or more chocolate.  Then something that is often skipped is animal proteins or animal sources of antioxidants. So wild salmon is very [00:10:00] rich in antioxidants. And beef liver as well, which is high in vitamin A and also is a great source of CoQ10. So getting that antioxidant rich diet is really going to support egg health and It's going to support the mitochondria.    So, number two, is really exercise, but I'm going to focus a little bit more on yoga and just a little note about exercise and movement. Yes, exercise and movement is super important when it comes to getting your energy and the chi and also supporting mitochondrial function. But it's important to note that too much exercise can have an adverse effect on your mitochondria and too little movement.   It also has an adverse effect. So it's really important to keep it balanced. And one of the best ways to do that is through yoga. I'm a big fan of yoga. Yoga has been around for thousands of years. It also incorporates breath work, which is important to support [00:11:00] ATP production, but I'm going to talk about that in a bit.   And yoga. Also helps calm the nervous system, which also helps our bodies rest deeper so that they're able to create more energy. And there's been studies that show that yoga can improve mitochondrial health and not just that, but it also has been shown to reduce autoimmune inflammatory arthritis. So if it's able to reduce inflammation through arthritis, think about What else it can do? It could probably do that with a lot of other things and especially The fact that it is able to help with the autoimmune specifically inflammatory arthritis and what I've seen is that when you're working on the nervous system, you can also work on the immune system and regulating your nervous system is important to support your immune system as well and how it functions because our [00:12:00] bodies really have these signals and those signals do speak to our bodies or our cells And our cells communication, when it's confused between our bodies versus something else outside of us, that's information. It's our cells information and how it processes it and how it translates it.   So if our nervous system, which is really a communication system in our body is regulated it would really impact your immune system as well and how your body processes information and what it perceives as either friendly or unfriendly. And when it gets regulated, it makes sense that yoga would help with that as well and calm it down. Because since it calms the nervous system, I find it fascinating that it's also calming an inflammatory arthritis that is derived from an autoimmune condition. So [00:13:00] this can also be due to the fact that when you're doing yoga, you're also breathing because a lot of times you inhale to certain poses and exhale to certain poses.    So yoga is a great way to truly balance the body, but it also can help with mitochondrial health, which reflects in egg quality. So number three ATP which is the energy units in mitochondria are actually produced, with the help of oxygen. So breath work can also help. And I highly recommend something called the breath of fire. And the breath of fire is very difficult to explain through the podcast. So what you could do is you can actually just YouTube, look in YouTube and see, because then you'll have a lot of people describing what it is, but it's a diaphragmatical breath that you do for a long time.   You can do it [00:14:00] from either a minute to five minutes. Some yogis do it for a very long time. And what it does is it helps your digestive system. It's called skull shining because it also creates clarity in the mind. And it helps in the area of the abdomen, which is, well, the location of the eggs in the uterus. So digestive system and the pelvis, they're very similar, very close together. And they also work really well together. So they're important. And a lot of times when I have people come in for acupuncture, I treat both.    When I treat the abdomen, I put points for both digestive system, as well as reproductive health in the pelvic area. If you don't want to do breath of fire necessarily, that's okay. You don't have to necessarily do a specific type of pranayama. All you have to do just to make a difference is to breathe really deeply in and out consciously. And you can do that for a few minutes where you're breathing all the [00:15:00] way in. Holding your breath and then breathing all the way out slowly. And you can count, count it to anywhere from four seconds to eight seconds, or as much as you're able to, to slow down your breath, but also to increase its capacity. So you're kind of increasing the lungs capacity to support oxygenation.   What I also suggest is to do this outside if you can, to really do this with. Outdoor air that makes a big difference. There's a quality in outdoor air that cannot be beat and you're getting like fresh oxygen Preferably if that outdoor air is in a place where there's lots of green And trees and you're getting quality oxygen and finally number four is sunlight, specifically early morning sunlight. So sunlight is amazing for many different reasons, but number one, it improves vitamin D levels, which are super important for mitochondrial [00:16:00] activity and function and deficiency of vitamin D has been linked to unexplained infertility, as well as recurrent miscarriages, which would make sense that. To be deficient in vitamin D is probably impacting the quality of the egg and the sperm. So this is good for both men and women. Really everything that I'm mentioning here can also be applied to sperm health as well.   So, sunlight not only improves vitamin D, but it also increases the production of cellular melatonin. So, melatonin, often we hear as the sleep hormone, however, it also works as an incredible antioxidant, very potent in the cells. And that antioxidant in the cells has been shown to help with Improved mitochondrial function, And it's also found in the follicular fluid, which is produced by the ovarian and granulosa cells. [00:17:00] And melatonin seems to play an important role in the regulation of follicular development and ovarian function. So obviously plays a very important role , when it comes to egg quality.   So that concludes the four top ways that you can improve your egg quality and I really wanted to, in this episode, explain to you really what it is, what egg quality is as best as possible in a way that you can understand that it really comes down to anti aging. And so the same things that people would use for anti aging could benefit egg quality.   And obviously those are just four, but there's so many other things that you can do to improve your egg quality. So I hope you enjoyed this episode and if you want more information and perhaps get some more free fertility content. You could visit my Instagram, which I'm very active there.   And my handle is at thewholesomelotusfertility. And if you [00:18:00] do like these episodes and are enjoying this, podcast. I would really love it if you can rate and review this podcast on Apple music. And if you think somebody can benefit from it, please do share.   So thank you so much for tuning in today, and I hope you have a beautiful day.

I cannot underscore enough the power that the mind can have in impactingour bodies. Acupuncture works on the mind from our meridians and energetic flow, but the mind can also impact the body’s energy flow as well. In this episode I will cover what meditation is, why thinking that it’s not for you is simply a thought that the mind constructs when it’s uncomfortable,and how to overcome that! My fertility book “The Way of Fertility” is going to launch soon and I would love to have you on the launch team!!! You’ll get to read it first! The application is more formality! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/TWOF-launch-team-application For more information about Michelle,  visit www.michelleoravitz.com The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/   Transcript:[00:00:00] Welcome to the wholesome fertility podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey. So on today's episode, I'm going to discuss a little bit more about meditation. And I'm also going to discuss something that typically happens in meditation and it is a deterrent. It's a deterrent for you to continue meditation. It's something that happens often to many people and it causes people to stop meditating.It also causes people to think. Meditation is not for me. I'm also going to discuss why it's important when it comes to your whole body's energy flow, not only your body's energy flow, but of course what reflects[00:01:00]overall health, your fertility health. So how can meditation help? There have been links that show that meditation mindfulness can impact fertility, health, reproductive health, and yourbody overall. And it also helps your sleep, which is incredibly important for your bodyand also help your, your digestion. So not just body, but fertility health. So all of those things are important for your hormone balance. So in so many different ways, meditation can be incredibly powerful. It also taps into our inner terrain as I love to call it our inner terrain. So in Chinese medicine, we deal a lot with blockages and energy flow. And one of the ways that we can access really the body's energy flow, not something that's always talked about is through our awareness and our meditation. I've literally just through my awareness, my[00:02:00]meditation, my visualizations, sitting there with my mind have released major blocks or like, uh, knots in my back just by watching it. Dr. Joe Dispenza talks about how he healed his body through visualizations. It's incredibly potent and powerful. It's something that science is starting to catch upon our minds and how powerful, just how powerful our minds are. When we do ge tinto a state of meditation, there's many different ways to meditate. What we're doing is we are starting to learn to master ourselves, really it's a form of mastering ourselves, it's a form of self mastery and it helps us become aware and bring ourselves to the present moment. In the present moment, when our mindsare aligned in that present moment, we talk about alignment, I talk about it a lotmyself.When you're aligned and you are in the present moment. You are more vital than when your[00:03:00]mind is off somewhere else. And you can see that just as an example of how effective you are when you're focused or when you're multitasking, for example, or thinking about something else. You're spread too thin. And your mind is being divided and compromised and not in the present moment.  When you are in the present moment, most people talk about like the state of flow. There have been a lot of books written about it and psychologists have talked about it. The state of flow that happens to athletes or artists when you're really focused on that present moment. And ultimately what meditation does is it trains your mind to come into this, the present moment and how it does that is by number one awareness because you can't train your mind to go into the present moment if it's not aware that it's not in the present moment and that actually happens a lot. I know it sounds almost obvious, but it's very, very[00:04:00]often that, for example, we're driving. Maybe an hour. We literally cannot even recall what we were seeing. We're like from where we left and then all of a sudden we have arrived and we have no idea what happened. Where did that time go? How, like, how did it even happen? You don't even remember the ride because your mind was going off on something because you've taught yourself how to drive and your subconscious mind took the wheel. It's automatic. It knows what to do. And it's just, it's done it so many times it's become like automatic. And so when your subconscious mind takes over, your mind can wander off into all kinds of different places away from the present moment. And you're totally fine, you get there safe, you know how to do it, your body knows how to do it, you almost train your body, your body is your subconscious mind. So that's pretty much how that happens. So when it comes to meditation, there are many different ways, but they[00:05:00]pretty much do the same thing. And so it's all about finding one type of anchor to focus on. So you can focus on either a mantra. or even body sensations, or a breath, your breath. Many times, a breath or a mantra is typically what is most commonly used. So, say you're focusing on the mantra calm. You'll repeat that word in your mind, and they say not to do it like a metronome, just to kind of have it go in and out. Almost organically. So whenever your mind, so your awareness, the awareness aspect is what catches your mind when it's going off. So your awareness catches your mind when it's planning or like leaving the present moment into some other story or something that happened looking into the future or thinking about the[00:06:00] past ruminating and your awareness is what's going to catch that. And what you do is you gently bring it back to that mantra or to the breath. So you're pretty much just training. It's almost like riding a horse. You're taking, you're taming this horse, which is your mind and you're making it, you're bringing it back gently, not making it, you're bringing it back gently to.Whatever it is that you're focused on, that object of focus, which could be a mantraor it could be the breath. Or sometimes what I like to do, and you can start out on meditation like this, is just interoception, which is body awareness, becoming aware of your body sensations. You can scan your body. That's something that sometimes people like to do. You could focus on your uterus. You can focus on the heart. Anything that you feel, and what's great about interoception is it actually through your awareness helps you to realize what's happening inside your body. And when you are aware[00:07:00]of what's happening inside your body, you can utilize your breath, like the sensation of your breath and your awareness and your attention into that area and almost like breathe into that area and release it. So you can almost feel that internal blocks within your body centers. So you can feel it, um, where the chakras are, if you're familiar with chakras, but it doesn'teven have to be chakras. It could be really anywhere in your body that you're feeling almost like a stuck feeling or something that'snot moving.And by breathing into that area and putting your focus and your state of mind, youknow, kind of your awareness. You're over time going to release it. It's just naturally what happens because you're bringing that divine intelligence, kind ofthat intelligence, but you're using in a way that's focused to release that area. So over time that impacts your body, it actually has a very calming effect on your body. And if you just do something where it is an object of focus, like the breath[00:08:00]or a mantra. What you're doing is you're training the mind and it can be uncomfortable at first. Any new habit that you're doing is always going to be uncomfortable if that is not where your mind is used to. It's going to want to go where it usually goes because that feels comfortable. So whenever you do something new, that could be very triggering. So getting into meditation, when I was talking about like getting that. That resistance that we get,that a lot of people get, that makes them stop meditating. What can happen is you get the sensation, right? The sensation is that your body's like, I don't like this. Or your mind's like, I don't like this. And your body's going to feel it. It's going to start feeling edgy from sitting still. And it's going to say, this doesn't feel right. This doesn't feel like natural for me. And that not feeling natural is going to open up a resistance and that resistance is actually going to impact your thought about it. And your thought will conclude, you know what? Meditation's just[00:09:00]not for me. I'm not built to meditate. And it will convince you that. And I've seen, and I've talked to, and I've actually been one of them. People who have started out thinking meditation is not for me because they thought that they had to like not think about anything or that they felt really uncomfortable. And then ultimately, if they still stayed with it, eventually they break through and then they realize They're getting benefits from the meditation. So my personal opinion is Meditation is for everybody who decides they want it so it could be for everybody and I'm not saying that you have to do it. But if you do give it a chance Eventually, just like exercising is good for the body. I mean meditations good for the mind and the body eventually it will provide some benefit. And part of it is, is because it's training the mind to come back into the present moment. So when you're saying a[00:10:00]mantra and you're focusing on the mantra and you're becoming aware of the mantra, when are you saying the mantra? You're saying it now. And so when your attention is focused on that anchor, that anchor, like a mantra, or a breath is happening in the now. So you catch yourself, but you gently bring it back. You don't force yourself. You don'tget mad at yourself. You just let the mind go where it goes. It's, there's a saying called monkey mind, and it describes. Meditation or like the, what happens in meditation and the mind will jump from one thing to the next. So when you see monkeys go from one branch to the other, that's how each branch is a different thought. And your mind will go back and forth and all over the place. And that is the nature of the mind. So you're not really supposed to stop thinking because it's almost impossible. And you're going to feel. Like a failure, if that's the case, because you can't really[00:11:00]stop thinking. Your mind's always going to go in that direction. It just likes to sway. It's almost like a branch is swaying in the wind. It's just going to go back and forth and it's always going to do that. But what you could do is over time, train it to come to the present moment. And when you're doing that, and it's not about stopping something else, typically. That doesn't work when you're trying to stop something. So like a negative with a negative, you don't really cancel something in your mind or like a state of being what you could do is redirect. So the same thing with habits. If you like to, I don't know, have wine. I always say, just have chamomile tea instead, do something to substitute it or redirect it somewhere else rather than just have a void. Because that usually doesn't work. The mind wants to focus onsomething or it wants to get directed somewhere else. So when you give it something else to focus on or you redirect it, then it'll eventually fall in line and then it will start to be more in the present[00:12:00]moment. When you become in the present moment and it starts to, you start to get more into that place, it really is a state of alignment because when your attention is focused on the now you're bringing more vitality to the moment. Because you're aware ofyour body or aware of your state and it becomes more alive and that vitality impacts your body. I like to talk a lot about the mind and I'm sure you've heard me talk about it a lot. The reason is, is because acupuncture, you know, what I do is basically we work alot on energy. But by working on the energy in the body, it impacts the mind, but it's kind of like a double sided thing. It's a relationship. The mind can also impact the energy in your body. So you can actually, without necessarily getting acupuncture, although I do really highly recommend it because it is powerful. There's been a lot of, uh, amazing things that I've seen. Incredible things. One that I[00:13:00]shared on Instagram a while ago, I actually pinned it on my reels. It shows the blood before and after acupuncture. Mind blowing because it'ssomething that the textbooks have always said. And now, interestingly enough, on so many levels, science is catching up to what it really does, what Chinese medicine has been talking about for many years. And they talk about it.They literally say that the blood moves, it moves the blood and it increases Qi. And you can see the blood vessel, like you could see the blood cells becoming more spherical and also moving, like moving a lot faster. It's like they're coming to life.  It's incredible. So back to what I was saying, not only can you do it through the body, but you can also do it through the mind. You can impact the body through the mind by visualizations, by sensations, by becoming more aware. So your awareness by itself is intelligent. Your awareness by itself kind of[00:14:00]aligns you to that divine intelligence. That really iswhat designed your body to do its thing. And the way acupuncture works is reallyto start that up to wake up that divine intelligence and to create balance and harmony so that your body isable to self heal and do its thing. Do what it was designed to do, which is self heal and self regulate. Typically the body always knows how to do that, but sometimes it has to go in an uphill battle for many years. Because of lifestyle choices, whatever it is, and this is why we create, we establish that harmony by doing acupuncture, but you can establish that harmony through your own awareness, just by being present. So, have you ever been on a really great vacation where nothing else matters? Now, was it really that nothing else matters, or was it that you just said the[00:15:00]conditions where I am allowsme, or I'm giving myself permission now to fully let go mentally because of the conditions, the conditions that you placed on your life and saying, well, in order to feel really relaxed, I need X, Y, and Z to happen. I need to be by a beach.  Does that necessarily have to be the case? Sometimes imagining a beach can have the same impact on your body. Just imagining the waves, hearing them in your mind can have an impact. So imagining something has been shown to have the same impact on the body. As the actual real thing. So an example is, and I always use this exercise a lot of times when I do in person workshops, is for people to imagine a lemon and squeezing that lemon and like really tasting that lemon. What happens? They start to salivate. Did they really have a lemon? Why did they start to salivate it? Why did their body respond as if they already had[00:16:00]lemon?That they really squeezed it in their mouth? That's the question. Like, can you just make your your mouth salivate that way? No. The imagining of the lemon automatically created almost like an instinct in the body, so.That is just one really, really clear cut example of how powerful the mind is. So when you're bringing thatdivine intelligence and really. Realizing that your mind is intelligent and your awareness, it's not even your mind, your mind's a tool, but it's your awareness, your consciousness, and bringing it to full alignment into the present moment is incredibly powerful for the healing aspects of your body. So, with Chinese medicine, of course, we go through the body, we go through the channels, and that impacts the mind, but that doesn't mean that Impacting the mind doesn't also impact the body. I've treated people where[00:17:00]physically I'm helping them a lot. You know, I'll treat them with certain patterns, but their mind habits and their thought patterns are so strong that even though they'll feel better if they leave for a little while, they'll go back to the same thing. This is one of the things that actually inspired me to certify in hypnotherapy.I'm very interested in the mind, obviously, but like, that was something that I wanted to learn because I said, why is it that even though we're getting better physically, it just keeps going back to the same thing. And then I'd hear in the language, the same repetitive. Words. And that means that obviously what you speak about is what you think about. So it just reflects the same repetitive thoughts and beliefs. And was it those beliefs that kept putting people in the same position and, um, having the same conditions over and over again. And I love to give the example of the people with. Dissociative[00:18:00]personality disorder where they have different personalities come out that they've seen allergies shift like people having hives from orange juice and then the hives disappear with the different personalities and then also eye color changing. I mean, it's crazy, but it really impacts the way the body expresses itself Like, why is that? It's not like their genetics are changing. What is it? It's like the brainthoughts and the beliefs and the patterns can completely shift what your body is acting like. So that to me is another example of how powerful our minds are. And one of the best ways to go into this default. State and default, not in a negative way. Really default meaning going back to our own nature is by our awareness. Just our awareness by itself is intelligence and by staying aware, we're also[00:19:00]being receptive and we're allowing our own mental antenna to connect to that divine intelligence. And I know this because I've been meditating. I know this beyond. Even things that I've read in books, it's a knowing that you can only know through experience.  And it's something that is very hard to really explain in words, but I'm trying. And it's something that I highly recommend you try. And what I often recommend if you do want to start a meditation practice is you don't have to do this like for 20 minutes a day. You could start out with literally two minutes a day, no more. And what you do by doing that for two minutes, You can handle anything, even if it's uncomfortable for two minutes, just sitting there and making your object to focus your breath. Or justpaying attention to your body sensations, which again, similar to the breath and the mantra, they're happening in the present moment.And so doing that, kind of[00:20:00]tuning in and being in a receptive, aware state of becoming aware, becoming aware of your mind going off and then come bringing it back gently and just continuously encouraging it to come to the present moment, whatever that object of focus is, and just sitting with it when you do that over and over again, over time for two minutes a day. You are going to basically convince your mind that this has become your new habit. So I highly recommend doing this at a time that you're doing something else already. Cause everybody has some kind of repetition or some kind of habit that they do. So your habit could be having coffee in the morning or tea or exercise after exercising or taking a walk. There's always something that you do every single day and it could be in the beginning of the day or at the end of the day, anchor the two minute meditation to that specific habit. So it could be before or after something that you do. It could be before or after having that tea in the morning [00:21:00]o r after the exercise or before that exercise or anchor it to something that you do every single day. When you anchor a new habit to an old habit, That's another way to get your mindon board. And when your mind gets on board, it's very similar to starting an exercise routine. Once you get into it, you start to crave it. It becomes part of what you want to do. It becomes part of your habit. And when you're doing that, you actually get your mind on board. Then, once you have that repetition, and I always start with two minutes a day, the reason being is because you could do anything for two minutes. It's not like that big of a deal. It doesn't request too much from you. And then it gets your mind intothe habit of doing it every day. And then, little by little, you're going to naturally want to increase that time. You might even want to after, like before the two weeks, and I would say like do it for two weeks. Another thing that I would highly suggest if you're[00:22:00]really not familiar with meditation, you want to find out a little bit more. This is something I suggest often for my patients to do with their partners is to watch on Netflix. Headspace series, and it's a series that is amazing. It's little cartoons that describe the meditations. It's short enough. It's a little cartoon. It's entertaining. It describes the science behind a lot of these meditations, and it'll take you through a different meditations for each episode. And at the end of each cartoon, they take you through a guided meditation of that which they just explained. So that's something that I highly recommend. So I hope you got value from this. I highly recommend starting or at least trying to start a meditation practice. I can't tell you how much it's changed my own life. I can't tell you how much I've seen incredible benefits with the patients that I work with that started meditating.[00:23:00] So I know that it could be a little challenging at first. Know that, keep that in mind so that you realize that you're going to get through it, just like any challenge. When you get through a challenge and your mind knows that it can overcome, it gets stronger, and it stays, you know, that type of pattern gets stronger and stronger, and you also prove to yourself that you can overcome. So, I hope you got value from this episode, and thank you so much for tuning in. Have a beautiful day. So that concludes today's episode. You can find all of the links mentioned on the episode notes. If you're enjoying these episodes, please take a moment to share and leave a review. Reviews mean everything to podcasters and I really enjoy hearing from my listeners. You can also find me on my website at www.thewholesomelotus. com or email me at info at thewholesomelotus. com. I love hearing from my listeners. If you're interested[00:24:00]and want updates as well as a free ebook on my top 10 fertility boosting habits, you can visit my fertility page on www.thewholesomelotus.com. I thank you so much for listening in and hope that you have a beautiful day.[00:25:00]  

In this episode, I will be discussing five simple ways you can improve your fertility health! A lot of these have to do with calming the nervous system, which can regulate hormones, digestion, as well as the endocrine system.   I will be covering: The benefits of yoga and how that can support your nervous system Why breath work is vital to your energy When the best time is to be intimate with your partner The ultimate practice of self love!   Links mentioned in this episode:   Queen of Thrones Discount: https://shop.queenofthethrones.com/thewholesomelotusfertility. Coupon code: LOTUSFERTILITY10   Studies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7153865/   https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(15)01885-3/fulltext https://archive.news.indiana.edu/releases/iu/2015/10/immunity-sexual-health.shtml   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:   https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/         Transcript:     [00:00:00] On today's episode of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I'm going to share with you five game changing ways to support your fertility health. And these five different ways are really powerful, so stay tuned.   Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orvitz. I have a lot of people that have listened for a while, but I know that some people are new.   So, I am a fertility acupuncturist. I specialize in fertility. I have a background in Ayurvedic medicine as well, and studied hypnotherapy, love the body and mind, anything that really has to do with fertility. If you have been listening for a while, nothing would make me happier than to hear from you on either a DM on Instagram at thewholesomelotisfertility or sweet review or rating on the podcast because of course that helps a lot of people learn about the podcast and see if it's going to [00:01:00] be helpful for them on their fertility journey and I love doing this.   I really enjoy getting feedback from you guys. So I hope you enjoy this episode.   On today's episode, I'm going to share 5 ways that you can support your fertility health. Ways that I personally think are super powerful. You're also going to learn some interesting things that you probably have not heard about before. And I will list a few studies as well that are very interesting. Things that I thought were definitely valuable for people to know.   So first up, is yoga. So I'm a huge fan of yoga and there's a lot of reasons for why. Well, it's personally impacted me and my life and I have felt the benefits that it has on my nervous system and how I'm able to function and I see the benefits that it has on my patients and my clients.   And there's also science behind it. So yoga is a practice that has been around for thousands of years. And [00:02:00] many people don't realize that it actually is a branch of Ayurvedic medicine. I have a background in Ayurveda. When I studied it, I was surprised to find out that it was really a branch of Ayurvedic medicine.   So Ayurvedic medicine as a whole, an umbrella, encompasses the physical therapy, which is yoga and yoga was typically done in preparation for meditation so that it can calm the nervous system and allow the mind to be more settled. So doing practices like yoga, settles the mind and creates more calm overall in the person who is practicing it.   One of the benefits is that it can improve blood circulation all over the body. And a lot of these yoga postures specifically for fertility health help with opening the pelvis and the hips and creating more flexibility. And when you create more flexibility, you're also creating more energy flow and blood flow, which is super vital for fertility health.   So that's just one way that yoga is so beneficial for fertility health. Another [00:03:00] way that it's beneficial is in studies, it's been shown to improve heart rate variability. So if you're not familiar with what that is in heart math, which is a heart math institute. You can Google it to find out more. It's really fascinating research that shows that the heart rate variability, which is basically how the heart adapts to stressors and is able to basically go from like being really active to really calm. And it's also associated with the rest and digest mode or parasympathetic nervous system, which is a really important aspect of the nervous system that allows us to go from a heightened sense of urgency or stress.   So, heart rate variability is also associated with physiological, endocrine, and emotional balance. So, this means it has a role in helping balance hormones and creating homeostasis, which is typically the yin and the yang.    So when your body is able to get to this rest and [00:04:00] digest mode, or it's able to get that homeostasis. or yin and yang balance, then it's able to heal itself and it's creating a restoration in the body and that creates more harmony and it helps your not only your nervous system, but it can also help regulate your immune system because there is also a correlation between the nervous system and the immune system.   So a lot of the things I'll be talking about today really do actually impact the body. The nervous system for fertility health and really for overall health and remember, fertility health is a reflection of overall health.   So number two, which is very much related to number one is pranayama, which is an ancient Indian practice and it's connected to yoga refers to breath control.   So breath control, there's many different ways that you can do this and many different ways that you can apply pranayama and each way. incredibly has its own indication. So it's almost like used like medicine and it can impact the body and the nervous system and it can also detoxify the lungs. It can also improve your [00:05:00] digestive health. There are many different types of pranayama that can be very beneficial for the body. It can calm the nervous system. Another thing that can calm the nervous system and that helps with your body's ability to restore itself. And it also. So for the body's own repair, hormonal regulation, so that it's able to support the energy of the body, which energy is extremely important when it comes to reproductive health because it takes a lot of energy for the body to conceive and support new life.   So pranayama or breath control, or increasing the oxygen in the body also or it's something called Qi, which is life force vitality. And I've talked about this before . But Qi is a Chinese medicine term or Chinese term that refers to the body's overall energy. And when we increase that Qi, there's many different ways where we can increase it. But one of the ways is through pranayama through oxygen intake, not only in Chinese medicine, but it's been shown to help. the mitochondria, which are the energy units in the cells to generate ATP. [00:06:00] So it's important to get that oxygen and to be able to do it consciously, because most of the time people don't breathe enough or they don't really use the capacity of the lungs in a proper way to maximize the benefits.   And it's actually something that I often suggest to some of my patients and clients that have been told to decrease the amount of exercise that they're doing because sometimes over exercise or exercise addiction, which I've seen a lot, can impact reproductive health, and it's important to keep exercise in balance and in check so that you're not overdoing it, and what I find is that you're people get really upset because they feel like exercise is their one way to release stress. And one of the ways that exercise helps in relieving stress is because it forces you to breathe. So one of the ways that I say, and it is an addiction, believe it or not, even though it seems like a good addiction, it's an important thing to keep in balance because sometimes too much of a good thing isn't really great.   So one of the tools that I give my patients and clients is to [00:07:00] do breath work, if they feel that stagnation building up from being used to exercising too much. So instead of exercising too much, and I always suggest doing something instead, rather than creating a complete void. So instead of that, what they could do is they can increase the amount of times that they do breathing exercises during the day. So one of my favorite methods of breathing exercises is called breath of fire. So breath of fire or skull shining is a type of breath that can increase and support well, what they call is the fire in the digestive system or in the abdomen area, which is really important.   And it's probably one of the biggest ways that acupuncture helps really well. So it improves that circulation. And you do literally feel like your abdomen's on fire when you do this correctly. And so breath of fire is a really, really amazing type of pranayama. And you can do that. And then there's also alternate nose breathing, which basically you [00:08:00] alternate from the left and right hemisphere of your breath. So you inhale from the left side, hold it, exhale from the right side, and then inhale back from the right side, and then exhale to the left side, and then back and forth like that. And what that does is it actually helps balance the left and the right hemispheres of the brain. And this has been shown in studies to also improve the tone of the parasympathetic or the rest and digest aspect of the nervous system.   And again, the nervous system is incredibly important. And typically in modern day life, we are using more of the fight and flight sympathetic nervous system. So it's important to regulate it and balance it by calming the nervous system down as well, because when you're doing that, that is when your body is able to repair itself. It has so many more benefits, including your digestive system and for your body's hormone balance. Like I mentioned before, it also helps to lower cortisol, which is really important because cortisol tends to compete with [00:09:00] progesterone, so we don't want that. And it lowers progesterone, which is a really important hormone to help with conception because it supports the luteal phase, which is when conception begins.   So on to number three, and that is again, another nervous system regulating technique, which is self massage. It is something that you can do for yourself. It is one of the most unused gifts that we have. We have hands and we can massage our own bodies. I know it's much nicer when someone else is massaging you, but you could still benefit from massaging yourself. And it actually, as a matter of fact, is another Ayurvedic technique, something that has been done for thousands of years, and it's called Abhyanga.   So Abhyanga, self massage or self anointing, is when people use oil and self massage. Now, you could use oil or you can use moisturizer. Most people get out of the shower and they use moisturizer. You could use that time. And take advantage and instead of just putting [00:10:00] on the moisturizer or the oil, you can start massaging yourself.   So self massage is incredible. And what I usually suggest is remember the saying, all paths lead to the heart. So always massage towards the heart because that is how you're going to move the lymph and so if you start from a distal point, You just go towards the heart and if you start from the bottom of the ankles you go up into the groin area, so you're going towards the lymph the lymph nodes and then you could also massage your abdomen which is amazing for your digestion, and it's also amazing for your pelvic blood flow, which supports your uterus and your uterine lining and your ovaries.   So great for your body, great for reproductive health. Self massage also calms the nervous system and self massage also improves sleep. You could also do this before you go to sleep. A lot of times I suggest for my patients to massage your abdomen. You don't have to always [00:11:00] do a full body massage like you do after you get out of the shower, but you could do an abdominal massage. And you go counter, which you could do in a clockwise fashion. And honestly, there is, I mean, I can give you specifics on how to do this, but it's so instinctive. You could really literally just push in your area of your abdomen and feel areas that feel stuck and massage them, release them. The more you do this, the more intuitive it becomes.   And you're going to get more in tune with your body. So you can go around the belly button clockwise, or you could just focus on the area between the hip bones or above the pubic bone and start to feel the areas that feel stuck. And what you're going to find is it actually really relaxes you. And it feels amazing. And you can also include calming essential oils if you'd like and make this a routine, a ritual before you go to sleep. to calm your nervous system. Again, it's all about calming that nervous system. Expression of self love.   Number four, castor oil packs. I'm sure you've [00:12:00] heard about the benefits of castor oil packs. Castor oil itself is amazing at helping move stagnation. So Chinese medicine, we often suggest it for things like endometriosis or fibroids, or just really to move the circulation around the pelvis to support fertility health. The best time to use the castor oil pack is during the follicular phase after the period. So not during the period, but you could start it when you're like spotting at the end of periods. So you're no longer in a full blood flow, but you're starting to spot, so it's tapering off. You can start doing the castor oil packs. But if you're actively trying to conceive, I would stop right before ovulation.   And that just during that small window is when you would use the castor oil packs. And how you use them is typically you'll find kits and they'll have a flannel cloth where you use the castor oil, which I recommend getting in a glass jar and also organic. So you put it in there, you put that on your abdomen, you cover it with [00:13:00] something just to keep it from getting messy, and then put a heating pad on top of that.   The one I recommend the most, and it is literally the best one I found so far, because it contains it and keeps things from getting messy and you don't need to put any other plastic wrap on top of it to keep the oil from getting out is called Queen of Thrones. And I have a unique discount code for that if you'd like. And you can find that in the notes.   So whenever you putting some warmth on your abdomen and having some circulation moving around that area, it also works to calm the nervous system. I would even suggest doing both self massage. and then also applying the castor oil pack.   You could start with the castor oil pack and then do a self massage right before you go to sleep. So kind of like end the day that way. That is the best way you can do it. You can even fall asleep with a castor oil pack on you during the window that I mentioned. Sometimes I'll do that. I'll put the castor oil pack with a queen of thrones. So I wrap it around. I put the heating pad on. [00:14:00] When I'm ready to go to sleep, I just leave it on and I fall asleep.   And last but not least, number five, I'm going to say sex and you're going to say, okay, well that's obvious, but I'm not talking about sex just in the fertile window. I'm talking about sex during the fertile window and outside of the fertile window.   And I'm going to tell you exactly when. So avoid sex during your period. Why? Because it's important for the sperm of your partner to be contained. And sometimes so that it's extra robust and strong on the beginning of the fertile window, which is five days before your ovulation. So every other day from five days before ovulation, the day before ovulation, day of ovulation, day after, and then also into the luteal phase when you're not fertile.   And I'll tell you why. Number one, it's going to help strengthen the connection with your partner, and it's going to take away the pressure of intimacy only during the fertile window, or timed intercourse, and I know I'm giving you a little bit [00:15:00] more of a time still, but doing so takes away that Uh, so that's the first thing, but what it also does is that it prepares the body to conceive.   When you're intimate more times, your body regulates its immunity so that it's able to accept, especially during the luteal phase, it calms the immune system so that it's able to accept something that's typically considered a foreign invader, which is Sperm and also the embryo itself. So their body's immune system lowers and it's able to accept the implantation of a new life form.   There's been studies that show this. So I'm going to list that in the notes as well. And it's also been shown to improve progesterone levels in the luteal phase. So that's huge. And then let's not forget the nervous system. It also works amazingly to calm the nervous system.  We've all felt it. And that is one of the best [00:16:00] parts of being intimate with your partner. It feels amazing.   So getting back into that state, into that flow, allowing yourself a little bit of a break from that fertile window and the baby making and making it more of the connection with your partner is just the best. And it's super beneficial for your connection as well.   So there you have it. That includes my five game changing practices. that you can do to boost your fertility health.     

Allison is a Traditional Chinese Medicine Practitioner and Integrative Health Practitioner based out of Vancouver British Columbia. She is a fellow of the American Acupuncture and TCM Board of Reproductive Medicine (ABORM) and a member of the Obstetrical Acupuncture Association (OBAA). With additional training in fertility and reproductive health as well as her personal experience with stage 3 endometriosis, Allison is particularly passionate about treating endometriosis and chronic pelvic pain. Website: https://www.seaofqihealing.com/ Instagram: @sea_of_qi_healing Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sea_of_qi_healing For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Transcript: Michelle:[00:00:00]Welcome to the podcast, Alison. Allison:Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Michelle: Well, I'm so excited to have you on and I thoroughly enjoy your Instagram, by the way. Allison: Oh, thank you. Michelle: you guys got to check out her Instagram. I have it in the episode notes. You have so much great information. Allison: Oh, thank Michelle: You're, you're really knowledgeable about your topic. Allison: Yeah, I, love doing any kind of, I love the social media part. I love educating. I love trying to have like a fun humorous spin on it too. So I have fun with my social media. Michelle: Awesome. So for the listeners , I would love it. If you can give us a bit about your background and how your own personal journey really got you to the work that you're doing. Allison: Sure. So I'm an acupuncturist and integrative health practitioner based out of Vancouver, B. C. And I have, special interest in kind of fertility, reproductive health, hormone health, menstrual cycle stuff. I was kind of thrown into that field of work upon graduating school. And[00:01:00]that's kind of when I fell in love with it, when I started learning more about the menstrual cycle and hormones and fertility. Allison: And I realized how much there is to know and how, how many, People who menstruate don't know about their hormones and fertility and so I thought it was such an important aspect of health to to educate more on and it wasn't until a few years into my practice that I was actually diagnosed with my own kind of hormone issues as well. Allison: So that's when I was diagnosed with gynecological condition and Andever since then, I've just been obsessed with learning everything I can about endometriosis and hormones and trying to help people that are kind of in the same shoes that I am. Michelle:  So,so tell us, well, how, how did you actually get into it? Did you, did you work for somebody who specialized in fertility? Michelle: When you got out of school, Allison: Yeah, so the clinic that I wanted to work at that I was kind of interning atin transitioning[00:04:00]into that was their kind of their their bread and butter. So they did a lot of fertility and women's health. And so upon graduating and starting to work there, it was just kind of part of my education of like all my program. Allison: You know, extended learning and mentorships and stuff were under people that specialized in fertility, so I had this, like, really great knowledge base and, you know, experience right off the bat, which was really crucial for specializing in this, and it was, yeah, it really, really helped a lot. Michelle: that's awesome And so I know that we hear a lot of common myths I mean one of the things I think that was eye opening for me is like Menstrual cycle like pms and all of the things that we have are actually not normal Even though they're common you don't realize this until you learn what you learn And that's when you're like, oh my god, this is actually not normal and it's It's an imbalance and we can work on that. Michelle: Like it almost feels like we just accept it as reality. So I'd love it if you could talk about some of the common myths[00:05:00]that you see and like, let's bust them. Allison: Yeah. I feel like that's a really huge one that like PMS and period pain is normal. And like to an extent, likea little bit of PMS, like a little bit of menstrual discomfort to an extent can be normal. I mean, your body's doing, you know, a very physical thing, but if there's like really severe PMS, that's really disrupting your quality of life. Allison: If there's really painful cramps, that's impacting your ability to go out with your friends or work or any of that, that's a, that's absolutely a sign that something is wrong, that there's a hormonal issue, there's inflammation, there's something else going on that we need to look further. And you're right, we are just kind of like programmed as women as like, this is just how it is. Allison: We just, you know, suck it up and get on with our day and that's just kind of how I feel like a lot of us, especially my generation, we were just kind of programmed to do that. This is just a part of being a woman and this is a normal part of being a woman. But in fact, our period and it's kind of like our monthly report card of how everything in her body is doing. Allison: And[00:06:00]it's such a great visual of like okay, these are my PMS symptoms and this is kind of what it's telling me. And then this is how my periodis. And this is what it looks like. And this is what it feels like. And that's also telling you so much information about your hormones. And I think that's kind of what I really love about Chinese medicine too, because even. Allison: If things are like, you know, normal, according to Western medicine, like I have a lot of patients with really bad cramps that go to their doctor and they're like, well, everything in your blood work is normal. Your ultrasound's normal, but they're still having like debilitating pain. And that's when I think like Chinese medicine. Allison: is really powerful because we'll obviously see like, Oh, you've got no tons of liver cheese stagnation or blood stasis, or I'm seeing so many symptoms of coldin the uterus. And it's almost like really, it's just really empowering. I feel like for the patient too, where it's like, no, we don't see everything like checked off as normal, even though your blood work and ultrasound is okay. Allison: I mean, that's really great too. But for Chinese medicine, we're always looking at[00:07:00]this deeper underlying pattern and all these subtleties. And it's kind of painting this picture of the imbalance. Michelle: Yeah, totally. It's it was really eye opening for me because I had one patient with severe PMS to the point where she was like, I have to avoid people because I'm just not like a kind person around that time. And she was just, and she was actually a friend of mine and I was like, you know what, I'll help you. Michelle: No problem. And so she started coming in And one time she wasn't trying to get pregnant and she was like, she thought she was going to be late because she was like, I'm not getting any of my symptoms and I'm supposed to get them right around this time. Something's off. And then all of a sudden she just gets her period. Michelle: She goes, what? She's like, I just got my period. And I'm like, exactly.I'm like, Allison: I love that. Michelle: G is flowing really freely right now. That's why.Allison: Yeah. That's like the magic of Chinese medicine. Michelle:Totally! Allison:The surprise Michelle: total flow. Yes,[00:08:00]exactly. It's like the flow, Allison: Yeah, your period should kind of sneak up a little bit on you. Yeah. Michelle: Yeah. I mean, you do feel, you know, you definitely like feel your body's cues and the same thing with ovulation. When you get really in tune with your body, it is important to be able to like pick up on the details, but it shouldn't be so severe to the point where you can't, like you said, you can't deal with normal life events. Allison: Mm hmm. Yeah, definitely. Michelle:So what are some of the most common things that you see when itcomes to the menstrual cycle irregularities? Regarding fertility,Allison: Yeah, so there's a lot of different patterns and that's kind of the really funpart about Chinese medicine is that we're kind of like little detectives and we're like piecing together every symptom and kind of painting this picture of what's going on internally with the patient. So I mean, like each organ system has its own characteristics and they all kind of play a role in fertility and overall health. Allison: Because we don't really[00:09:00]think of in Chinese medicine as, Oh,the reproductive organs are just their own specific thing. It's kind of the wholebody has has a, has a play in it. So like what you're talking about, the liver chi, the liver chi is so tied to menstrual health. I am working with liver chi day in and day out when I'm working with fertility and endometriosis and hormone health. Allison: So the liver chi is like really, really important to makesure that everything's moving smoothly in the body and that's emotionally and physically. And then like the spleen chi and stomach chi in the digestive system is also really important because we want to make sure that your body is able to get all the nutrients that it needs and there's not a lot of inflammation there. Allison: We want to make sure the blood is moving really smoothly, like blood stagnation, cheese stagnation digestive deficiencies. I see that a lot. And then the kidney organ system is also really tied to fertility in Chinese medicine because it's kind of like, gives you that kind of DNA deep level energy to the egg cells and the sperm cells. Allison: And so making sure that those are really healthy because a lot of poor lifestyle or[00:10:00]genetics can impact the kidney energy system. So we always want to kind of help support the kidney energy with fertility. Michelle:Yeah, for sure. What I find really interesting and hopeful about really how Chinese medicine talks about the kidneys and talks about like the essence is, is that there's like pre heaven and post heaven. And so yes, pre heaven, we can't really do much about because that's pretty much what comes from our parents. Michelle: But post heaven is really how we choose to live our life. And we've seen that we can actually reverse age like biological age through the choices that we make. And I find that to be great. It's very empowering to know that your choices can make a difference on your body. Allison: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that kind of goes back to where I really feel like Chinese medicine is such an empowering medicine because there's so much that you can do, diet, lifestyle, herbs, supplements, acupuncture, all those things really can have such a huge positive impact. And it's kind of like, yeah, I love the pre heaven and post heaven. Allison:We are[00:11:00]kind of given what we're got with like our basic genetic blueprint, but our post heaven essence is like epigenetics, where we have the huge percentage of, you know, influence over our health, no matter what our genes are saying and we have so much influence over that that part of it, and I think Chinese medicine plays a huge role in that. Michelle: And do you find that there is a correlation because I mean, listen, we're living in a, a very toxic life, like the environment, everything's just like around us and the foods that we eat, the extra ingredients that they put in it's it's the reality is that you really have to be careful on what you expose yourself to, what kind of cosmetics. Michelle: and the endocrine disruptors, I feel like that really bogs down the liver and It weakens its ability to do its job. And then sometimes I'll see things like Fibroids or certain things kind of popping up because the body's not able to likereally clear up the toxins. Michelle: And sometimes I'll find that the[00:12:00]person is working in an environment that has more toxins than normal. And so we have to kind of work extra, a little extra to release that or clear that out. And even for IVF, I like to do that as well. Right after retrieval do some kind of like very mild, you know, nothing too harsh But like mild liver detox to just help the body release the excess hormones, you know Because I really feel like that aspect of it can really impact the way the reproductive health expresses itself. Allison:yeah, I completely agree. I think there's a lot of, a lot of things in our world right now that are impacting our liver. And we are, as Chinese medicine practitioners, seeing that reflected a lot in liver cheese stagnation. And I think that's why there's so much PMS and period pain and infertility kind of that's pretty rampant because we are seeing, like I don't think I have a single patient where theirliver didn't need like a little bit of support in the Western sense and in the Chinese. Allison: medicine sense.[00:13:00]So yeah, I do love that you that you do payattention to that. And especially like post IVF or something, when all those medications you're it's really working the liver and not that those are bad medications at all because they're really useful and they're doing really wonderful things for patients to help reach their, their goals. Allison: But yeah, you're right. I do think there is a place where we can kind of help support the liver, especially post IVF. Michelle: Yeah for sure. So as far as endometriosis, I know that like gut health is really, really, really important when it comes to endometriosis. So the inflammation, how that impacts leaky gut. So what are some of the correlations or like the patterns, not necessarily just with Chinese medicine, and you could talk about that as well, but like just some of the links that you've noticed or the things that tend to go hand in hand. Michelle: With endometriosis. Allison: Yeah, that's a really good question. I love that you asked that because endometriosis is such a full body disease, like it's not just[00:14:00]something that's happening in the pelvis. So yeah, the gut connection is huge. I find that to be honestly, like one of the biggest roots of something that we need to focus on and kind of like rectify with a lot of my patients with endometriosis because the gut is such a foundational pillar of health. Allison: And so if there's anything going on there with like leaky gut ormicrobiome or their subclinical gut infections or SIBO or whatever is going on, then we really need to work on. Kind of correcting the dysbiosis because not onlydoes that create a lot of inflammation, but there's also such a huge microbiome and bacterial component to endometriosis. Allison: Like, there's so much research coming out about how people withendometriosis have different vaginal and uterine microbiomes. And all of our microbiomes in our body are connected. So I really do feel like if we focus a lot on gut health and working on any kind of issues that are super apparent there, then it makes such a huge difference in like overall inflammatory levels, which are totally going to[00:15:00]help with a lot of the endosymptoms and the endo pain.  Allison:But also kind of helping with the microbiome component is really important for fertility because we do know a good vaginal and uterine microbiomeis super important for fertility, but I also find it really helpful for endosymptoms. And then I also love looking at the nervous system because I find that if we're kind of like, if we've got some like circadian rhythm dysfunction, because we're not sleeping well or we don't have good sleep hygiene or if we're just kind of continuously operating out of fight or flight mode and we're just never in parasympathetic mode, that's going to totally cause a lot of inflammation in the body and that's going to absolutely affect your endometriosis. Allison: So those are two things that I find. a lot of people with endo can benefit from working on. And that's, yeah, correcting any gut dysbiosis and really working on gut health. And then also really working with the nervous system. Like we really need to work on this chronic stress epidemic and like having a good circadian rhythm. Allison: I've been doing a[00:16:00]lot of, I've been like looking a lot into like the cortisol awakening response lately. I've been really nerding out about it and how it's how your cortisol levels like really need to have that initial spike in the morning. And not only for you to like feel good and get out of bed, but also it's areally important indicator of like inflammatory levels in your body. Allison: And there's also a really important autoimmune component. And we do know that endometriosis has this kind of auto-immune overlap with it. And so any of my patients that I am hearing like, Oh, how do you feel like when you get out of bed? Like, how long does it take you to kind of feel alive in the morning? Allison: Once you get out of bed, if it's like, Oh, two hours and five cups of coffee. I definitely know that there is some cortisol awakening response that we need to kind of work on in order to like really help with the immune and inflammatory stuff. So, yeah, those are a couple of things that I'm always looking at for my endo patients. Michelle: That's really great information. Vaginal microbiome I think is huge because I actually was at a mega spore[00:17:00]biotic on the microbiome labs.They had a little conference and I listened to a lecture by Dr. Jolene Brighton and she was talking about the vaginal microbiome and Allison: Oh, I love her. Michelle: She's amazing.Michelle: She always has great information. She just always delivers. And so she talked about that and she said that in, in Spain, they'll always check the vaginal microbiome. And especially when people are doing IVF and transfers specifically. And I had one of my patients going to Spain. Michelle: A lot of people go to Spain. I mean, they save money. The only thing is they lose money with the flights and everything, but they're really good doctors and like the clinics are great. And so what they do is they actually have, I'm almost like always on a protocol to check their vaginal microbiome. Michelle: They always check it before transfers and they have these women going on vaginal suppositories for the microbiome to support it. And I had. A recent patient who was like advanced[00:18:00]maternal age and she's pregnant. But she was on the suppositories. Michelle: They were checking and making sure because they said that she was mentioning that there's a link between, I guess, imbalanced vaginal microbiomes, a little different in the sense that it's. Like, you don't want diversity. You want it to be more like a specific type of strain. She was saying that there's a connection between a poor balance of the vaginal microbiome and recurrent miscarriages, unexplained infertility and failed transfers. And that's huge. That's so important. And nobody really checks here. Like. In our world, North America. Allison: Yeah. Well, actually in Vancouver, where I am, there's one clinic that does for some patients. And I, I have like the past, yeah, the past year. So I've been having a lot more patients do some microbiome testing. They'll do the swab. It's called the Emma Ellis. I think that they do it here. In in a couple of the clinics and they'll do the probiotic suppositories. Allison: And I honestly like tell my patients to go get them[00:19:00]too and jerk them where they can find them because I think it's always a benefit. Like it's not, it's such a harmless intervention. It can only help like and it's, they're so easy to do. It's so affordable. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and it does improve transfer results and pregnancy rates and everything, and so, yeah, I'm, I'm a huge fan of  Michelle: no brainer. Allison: testing for fertility. Allison:Yeah, Michelle: Yeah. It's a no brainer. And I think that it's so important and I, I'm so glad you brought it up. And I'm glad to know that some places are doing it places. I haven't seen it yet. I haven't seen that to be like really. And I've been actually running it for some of my patients. But I'm glad to Allison: Oh, nice. Michelle:people are starting to do that. Michelle: That's great. And then as far as a nervous system and circadian rhythm, that's huge because it's kind of like, I always look at it almost as like the second-hand is going to impact the hour hand. So like the second hand could be like our 24-hour cycle versus our 30 day cycle or[00:20:00]infradian rhythm. So the circadian rhythm impacts the infradian rhythm. Michelle: So it's important to have a good circadian rhythm. Interestingly, if I lookback, I had, I also have a history of We all started as patients, a lot of us. So I have a Allison: Yeah, right? Ah. Michelle:I did was I, I used to have the worst circadian rhythm. I used to not beable to wake up in the mornings. Michelle: Like I would, if left to my own devices, I would stay up until like, I would sleep until 2 PM some days when I was like younger in my twenties, andthen I'd. I'd stay up till two, three, four sometimes. I mean, I was just completely off and I don't know, I always blamed it on college or whatever, but it was just definitely my rhythm. Michelle: It was just the way my body was. And now I'm much more regular just over time. And it kind of synchronized with like my, menstrual cycle. So is that something that you see often?[00:21:00]Allison: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, and it always kind of goes back to like, Chinese medicine roots of like, we, we need to sync with nature. Like, when the sun's down, that's our yin time. That's not the time to do a lot of work or exercise. That'sthe time that we're supposed to be slowing down. We're supposed to be asleep.  Allison: Like, I'm always coaching my patients, like, I want you in bed. by 10pm, 11pm at the latest. I do not care if, like, you're naturally a night owl. Like, that is the kind of ideal Chinese medicine bedtime. Because we really do get those better hours of sleep in the earlier hours of the night. We get that deep, restful sleep. Allison: And it really does make a huge difference. I've been, yeah, personally, like, really prioritizing regular sleep cycle the past couple years. And it's been, like, revolutionary for me for how I feel like mood and energy, but also I my endosymptoms and I also had an autoimmune disease. And so it's been really helpful for that. Allison: So I think it's really easy to overlook the basics of like, well, I'm gettingmy eight hours, even if I'm going to bed at 2am or,[00:22:00]you know, sleep, I'm getting enough, I'm getting about six, seven hours. That should be enough. But it's like really irregular times. Like your body can't really cope with that. Allison: And I think it's really important that we go back to these like. Super basic principles of like, are you sleeping on time? Are you eating at regular intervals?Are you doing regular movement? Like these really basic things, these small habits really add up to make such a huge difference in health problems and especially even like super complex chronic health problems. Allison: It can be really revolutionary. Michelle:Oh yeah. And there's definitely studies that have been linked to irregular periods and also infertility when it comes to having night shifts. So like night shift hours, it really impacts the reproductive health. So it's really fascinating because it's not just the hours. It's really when it's the, when. Michelle: not just the amount. Allison: Mm hmm. Michelle: So I studied Ayurvedic medicine. That was also very eye opening when it comes to like really understanding the rhythms of nature and how[00:23:00]our bodies synchronize and also the elements of food and really understanding like how our bodies do better. Michelle: It's almost like really understanding the time cycle of the day and optimizing it. And when it comes to intermittent fasting. Fasting itself is actually really, it could be very beneficial if done right. And I want to say that like really,really in strong words, if done right, because I personally, from what I understoodand how much I've, I've learned as far as the sun goes, like the sun helps our acne, which is our digestifier. Michelle: So if we, the best time to eat really is during the day. So breakfast lunch, lunch should be the largest meal of the day and that's when you should have those difficult to digest proteins and have that like during that time because at that time the sun is at its highest Where the day is the most young it could be and so you want that young energy that[00:24:00]fire to be supported by nature's rhythms to help your own digestive fire and And then what you could do if you want to fast is fast at night versus in the morning. Michelle: And that's what a lot of people do. They'll fast in the morning and it's been shown that it could possibly not be great for women because it's been mostly studied on men and they have a completely different rhythm. So that's something that I always suggest. If you really do feel that you need to fast for a little bit and have like a little break digestive wise, it's better to do it when the sun goes down. Allison: Yeah, I completely agree. And I do feel the same about fasting. Like, I, to an extent, I like fasting, like, you know, a good maybe 12, 13 hours, maybe 14 hours for some metabolically flexible people, but I've always been a huge component of breakfast just because, in Chinese medicine, like, the stomach channel, time, is in that morning, and that's kind of always when historically theysay that's a great time to eat,[00:25:00]and I feel like, yeah, this huge intermittent fasting kind of craze can be good to an extent and when utilized properly, but I'm always going to go back to, like, what have we been doing for 2, 000 years that has been working really well? Allison: Like, I think there's a lot of parts to Chinese medicine where yeah, a lot of the health trends and health fads are just not going to resonate, and that's kind of,like, always my good reminder of like, okay, well, let's go back to what nature and what has been working for humans for, you know, thousands of years. Allison: Right. Michelle: think about like the light cause like light light hygiene, cause you want to call it, you want, you want to get exposure to light early in the morning so that your body knows. Cause that's how our bodies respond. Our bodies really respond to light. So I always kind of, I always prescribe this, like go early in the morning, get some sunlight while it's safe early, early. Michelle: And then of course, obviously protect your skin if you're skin sensitive and especially later on, but like early in the morning, it's easier. For your body to process.[00:26:00]I almost kind of compare this in my mind as like a hose of water. So you want water. When it's trickling, it's much easier to drink. Michelle: And then like in the middle of the day, when it's like shooting out, you're, you're going to choke. It's too much. So it's better to have it early in the morning. We're able to really get the vitamins. And I remember my grandmother always telling me early morning sun will give you the most vitamins. Michelle: That's how she explained it. The most nutrients. And she was right. She was right. She said that. She's like early morning sun. That's what you want. And so, and not only that, it also anchors the circadian rhythm and then also getting moonlight. So like not having the fake light, dimming the light at night, and that could really, so that's why I would say like light hygiene is to kind of dim it at night so that we go back to our roots. Michelle: And this is just, it's what nature has intended for us. Allison: Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. All of that. I mean, it's always a good reminder to go back to[00:27:00]nature of, like, the super basics. When it's dark, like, it should be dark. It should be quiet. It should be in. It should be asleep. And then, yeah, during the daytime, that's when things are active, including our digestive system. Allison: Like, it seems, yeah, nature was designed for it to be pretty clear to us,like, what we're supposed to be doing. Michelle: Yeah. For sure. And what are your thoughts about taking melatonin supplements? Allison: think it can be helpful. I mean, I am not a huge and high dose melatonin. So I'm more of like the one to three milligrams because that's kind of akin to what is naturally produced in the body. There are a lot of there's some research that shows that a high dose can be good for endometriosis, like even up to 10 milligrams because of its antioxidant effect. Allison: But I, I've, I've only had it be helpful for a small group of patients, like not a lot. So it's not my favorite one to go to because I just, I don't think that it's going to be hugely beneficial for the circadian rhythm. But I do find it[00:28:00]helpful for some patients and I love it as like a general antioxidant. Allison: If your levels are kind of low because you know, we're not, we have so much light in the night time and stuff. So our bodies are naturally kind of, I bet a bit melatonin deficient. If it's, if you're taking a decent dosage of like one to three milligrams and it's really helping you sleep and you're noticing a huge difference, awesome. Allison: But I also see a lot of patients where it doesn't do a lot for them or it makes them feel groggy. And so I think it's a really case by case dependent. Like if it works for you and you're on a good dosage, awesome. If it's not, like I'm not too hard pressed, like there's a lot of other alternatives. I like, I love a lot of adaptogens and stuff. Allison: too, that can kind of help reset their circadian rhythm too. So, yeah, it's not my absolute favorite go to but there is like some really good research with it for fertility and egg quality because of its antioxidant effect. So I don't hate it. Michelle: Yeah. Well, the great thing is, is that getting that early morning sunlight induces cellular melatonin. So it actually brings that out of you, so it is a great way to get that, Allison: that is true. Michelle: natural light,[00:29:00]but also through light therapy. So light therapy can help that as well. Michelle: So is there anything else that you're like passionate about, excited about that you're like learning about recently that you're finding is really helpful for your patients? Allison: Besides the cortisol awakening response, which I've been really nerding out about and just like cortisol in general, I find it's such an underrated hormone and people are either like, Oh, we want to squash it or we want to raise it. But that's like so much more complex and intricate than that. So I've been really kind of diving into that and like some more Dutch test stuff. Allison: I find, I am always just learning, I love learning so much about estrogen metabolism and methylation because I find that a lot of patients who are struggling with reproductive health stuff and fertility and especially endo and stuff a lot of them are, we're just not metabolizing and methylating estrogen correctly. Allison: And so it's, that's causing a lot of symptoms. And so I've been really kind of doing a lot of research into that, which I've been finding so interesting. So yeah, I feel like that's kind[00:30:00]of, yeah, liver, cortisol, all that kind of Michelle: stuff, liver stuff again. So what, what have you. Allison: Always back to the liver. Michelle: Yes. What have you seen is effective for estrogen metabolism. Allison: yeah, well, it depends, like, at which phase people are having the issues. If it's, like the metabolizing into the 4 2 OH, or if it's, like, the actual methylationprocess, because there's different, you know, supplements and herbs that all, I'll recommend. So that's why I really love testing. So we can really like see exactly where the issue is, or if it's in phase three estrogen metabolism, where we really need to focus on the gut health again because there's too much beta glucuronidase,that's recirculating estrogen levels and stuff. Allison: And so there's different things that we can do for that. But yeah, I just love like, The basic things that your liver needs is like magnesium, B vitamins enough protein, enough iron. Like there's some really basic stuff that I think, if a lot of if we're just really focusing on through like healthy nutrition and stuff, then alot of that stuff can be helped. Allison: [00:31:00]So we don't, honestly, we don't even need like, crazy amounts of supplements and herbs if there's these issues going on. Sometimes your body just needs like a really basic levels of magnesium and B vitamins and hydration and amino acids and stuff and then all these things can kind of work efficiently. Michelle:Yeah. Sometimes I find just warm water and lemon on an empty stomach every day because lemon is like the sour taste for the liver. Just something like that. It's such a simple, it's so simple. It's almost too simple that people think it's like, how could this work? It's too simple, Allison: Yeah. Michelle: amazing that I find. Allison: Yeah, that's kind of how I feel about like castor oil packs, too. Michelle: Yeah. Oh, yeah. So talk about those because that that's actually really effective I find and moving like the lymph and moving that stagnation. Allison: Absolutely. Yeah, I'm a huge fan of castor oil packs, especially like after my patients have endosurgery where they have laparoscopic abdominal surgery to remove the endo lesions. I love using[00:32:00]castor oil packs post operatively to help like reduce scar tissue formation and to really help with the healing process and the blood circulation and lymphatic movement and everything. Allison: So castor oil packs are basically you apply castor oil to the abdomen or liver and then you place a heat pack on it and you kind of just relax with the heat. To as the oil kind of seeps into your skin and does all the magic that it needs to. And it is such like a simple intervention just like warm lemon water in the morning that I find is just such an easy thing to do. Allison: It's really cost effective, it's really relaxing. Like it doesn't take a lot of effort. You can do it like while you're watching tv. Like it's a really easy thing to kind of incorporate into, into your life. But I do find it really, really helpful for like reducing period cramps, helping people to recover post abdominal surgery for liver detoxification. Allison: Like done regularly, it can, you know, have a lot of really positive impact. Michelle: for sure And what are your thoughts on when to do it on the menstrual cycle because I do hear like conflicting perspectives on when[00:33:00]you should do it and then you can also move it at certain times to the liver rather than the abdomen. Allison: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, so I'll never recommend it during menstruation, or like at least during your heavy days because I do think it can cause a little bit too much blood circulation and that just might increase the bleeding. And then I'll never recommend it after ovulation if you're trying to conceive. Allison: So if there's any chance of pregnancy, we kind of just want to like take care of that like precious area. We don't want to do anything to moving or detoxing. Like that's even like a point in the menstrual cycle where I won't do too many abdominal points. Like I kind of just like let your body do what it needs todo. Allison:Like it knows how to do it. I'll do a lot more distal stuff to kind of help with blood circulation and hormone balance and whatever we're working on. But yeah, anytime that there's any chance of pregnancy, I like to leave the lower belly alone. Michelle: No, it's true. I, I do the same thing. Actually. I do like right after ovulation. I tell them not to do it and they're like, and it pretty much[00:34:00]minimizes the window to like, after period, you know, in between that point, but I, usually like to be a little more conservative on that as well, unless you're trying to prepare your body ahead of time. Allison: I'm definitely on the cautious side. Michelle:Yeah, me too. You might as well. Yeah, totally. So this is great. Great conversation. I'm sure we can keep talking about all kinds of topics and questions.And so if people want to work with you, so you do Dutch testing, you do sometesting and you do some online work. Allison: Yeah, so I'm CFG healing on all the social medias and my website. I'm seeing patients in person in Vancouver and Burnaby, British Columbia, and I do see a small amount of patients virtually. So if you're elsewhere and want to work with me, we can do some telehealth. Michelle: Fantastic. Well, Alison, it was awesome speaking to you. And thank you so much for your insight and information. And guys, I[00:35:00]definitely recommend you check out her Instagram because it's like loads of information. You're going to learn so much. I'm learning so much because I love really collaborating and talking to other practitioners because you can always learn something new. Michelle: That's what I find. You just can always learn something because everybody has a different perspective. Allison: Yeah, that's so true, and I'm an avid regular listener to your podcast, and I could say the same. I always learn so much from you and all the people that you interview, so thank you for doing what you do. Michelle: Oh, that's awesome. Well, I admire you. So that's really nice to hear that coming from you. So thank you so much, Alison, for coming on today. Allison:Thanks, Michelle.