Clearer Than Truth

Karen Elliott House, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and former publisher of The Wall Street Journal, returns to Clearer Than Truth to discuss Mohammed bin Salman’s leadership and the future of Saudi Arabia. Drawing on decades of firsthand experience in the kingdom, House examines the tension between Saudi Arabia’s sweeping social transformation and its continued political repression, MBS’s ambitions to become a global powerbroker, and the economic and security pressures created by regional conflict. She also explores Saudi Arabia’s relationships with the United States, Iran, Israel, and other regional powers, the risks of a wider war, and whether the kingdom can sustain its modernization ambitions amid instability. Looking decades ahead, House weighs Saudi Arabia’s prospects against the shifting balance of global power and explains why she remains pessimistic about the near term but more optimistic about America’s long-term position.00:00 Introduction: Karen Elliott House on Saudi Arabia00:58 How Mohammed bin Salman Has Changed01:57 Modernization Without Political Freedom04:44 Can the West Trust MBS?07:59 Saudi Arabia’s Regional Partnerships09:53 MBS’s Ambitions and the War’s Economic Cost11:54 The Saudi Relationship With Trump13:45 Could the Conflict Threaten MBS’s Rule?16:13 Saudi Youth and the Limits of Political Opposition18:08 How Secure Is the Saudi Monarchy?19:16 Vision 2030 and the Future of NEOM21:40 The Economic Impact of Regional Instability23:21 Can Saudi Arabia Get Its Economy Back on Track?25:02 MBS’s Security and the Risk of Escalation27:36 Oil Revenue and Saudi Arabia’s Economic Vulnerability29:36 The Risk of a Wider Regional War32:03 Saudi Arabia and the Global Balance of Power35:05 Why House Remains Optimistic About America36:05 What Makes MBS Different?39:34 Where to Follow Karen Elliott House’s Work40:54 Closing RemarksSupport the show

Richard Fontaine, CEO of the Center for a New American Security, joins Clearer Than Truth to examine the strategic challenges facing the United States in an increasingly contested world. From the Trump administration’s approach to military force and the future of American alliances to defense spending, the competition with China, and the growing role of artificial intelligence, Fontaine explores whether the United States has a coherent strategy to match its global power. He also explains why Washington has repeatedly struggled to prioritize the Indo-Pacific, how allies are reassessing American reliability, and why he remains cautiously optimistic about America’s long-term advantages.00:00 Richard Fontaine on America's Changing Foreign Policy00:32 Is America's Grand Strategy Fundamentally Changing?01:53 The Lasting Shift Toward Protectionism03:12 Does Trump's Foreign Policy Have Historical Precedents?05:28 What Would John McCain Think of America Today?07:04 Has America Become an Overextended Superpower?09:40 Can America Still Trust Its Alliances?11:52 Trump's Way of War vs. the Powell Doctrine13:41 Why Clear Military Objectives Matter15:05 The Problem With Trump's Flexible War Strategy17:32 What the Powell Doctrine Would Say About Iran18:51 Can America Afford Another Major War?19:19 Could America Defend Taiwan Against China?21:17 America's Defense Industrial Base Problem22:16 How AI Will Reshape Global Power24:16 Should America Stay Ahead of China in AI?25:46 Can America and China Agree on AI Safety?28:57 What Nuclear Arms Control Can Teach Us About AI30:06 Why Crises Sometimes Force International Cooperation32:34 Why America Keeps Failing to Pivot to Asia34:10 How Middle East Wars Derail America's Asia Strategy35:21 Is China Still America's Biggest Strategic Rival?36:36 What CNAS Is Working on Now37:42 Can America Rebuild the International Order?38:45 What Still Makes America Powerful?40:38 Why Richard Fontaine Remains Optimistic41:13 Where to Follow Richard FontaineSupport the show

Ambassador Michael McFaul, former U.S. ambassador to Russia and author of Autocrats Versus Democrats, joins Clearer Than Truth to examine how Vladimir Putin transformed Russia’s relationship with the West and why the war in Ukraine remains so difficult to end. McFaul argues that Putin’s greatest fear is not NATO expansion but the spread of democracy, which threatens the legitimacy of his autocratic rule. He reflects on the achievements and failures of the Obama administration’s Russia reset, contrasts Putin’s leadership with Mikhail Gorbachev’s approach to Eastern Europe, and discusses the uncertain prospects for political change inside Russia. The conversation also explores Ukraine’s nuclear disarmament and security guarantees, the risks of leaving Ukraine outside NATO, China and India’s limited roles in seeking peace, and why McFaul believes stronger military support for Ukraine and tougher sanctions offer a better path toward a negotiated settlement than appeasing Putin.00:00 Michael McFaul on Russia and Putin01:13 Why Putin Fears Democratic Expansion02:07 What the Russia Reset Was Really About03:45 What U.S.–Russia Cooperation Achieved05:01 Why Dual-Track Diplomacy Failed06:37 Could Russia Have Taken a Different Path?08:22 How Putin Became More Paranoid and Imperial09:36 Gorbachev, Eastern Europe, and Nuclear Secrets11:23 Why Individual Leaders Shape History12:35 Gorbachev vs. Putin on Democratic Movements14:02 Why Arms Control Requires Verification15:12 Could Putin Lose the Support of His Elites?16:06 How Putin Tightened His Grip on Russia18:19 Why Revolutions Seem Impossible—Until They Happen19:15 Ukraine’s Independence and the Nuclear Question20:27 Putin’s Early Political Years22:16 The Budapest Memorandum and Ukraine’s Security23:24 Should Ukraine Join NATO?24:59 Why China and India Aren’t Helping End the War26:27 Russia’s War as an Imperial Project27:19 Why Appeasing Putin Won’t Work29:06 What Putin Really Wants From Ukraine30:37 Why Putin Wants the Donbas31:56 Is Russia Trying to Break Ukraine’s Will?32:20 The People Who Turned to Putin34:33 How Propaganda Becomes a Business35:28 The Dinner That Revealed Putin’s Worldview37:07 Why Putin Thinks Everyone Can Be Bought37:35 Michael McFaul’s Latest Book and WritingSupport the show

Julius Krein, founder and editor of American Affairs, joins Clearer Than Truth to examine why the United States has struggled to rebuild its industrial base even as the case for reindustrialization has entered the mainstream. Krein argues that tariffs alone cannot restore American productive capacity: the country needs strategic investment, skilled workers, coordinated supply chains, permitting reform, and institutions that can help critical industries become commercially viable. He explains why the goal should not be to centrally plan the entire economy, but to open opportunities for private investment in sectors weakened by decades of underinvestment. The conversation explores the political costs and potential benefits of rebuilding manufacturing, whether a more productive economy could narrow class divides, and how the United States might redirect its financial resources to compete with China. Krein’s broader message is that America has made progress in recognizing the problem, but the real test is whether it can overcome institutional bottlenecks and deliver tangible results before political support fades.00:00 Julius Krein on Rebuilding American Industry01:01 Has Industrial Policy Finally Gone Mainstream?02:08 Why Rebuilding Industry Could Take Decades03:24 From Fringe Idea to National Priority04:07 The Problem With Tariff-First Economics05:04 Why Tariffs Alone Won’t Rebuild Manufacturing06:22 The Real Costs of Trade Policy07:35 What a Real Reindustrialization Strategy Requires08:30 Why Critical Industries Lost Their Investment09:31 The Missing Pieces: Workers, Buyers, and Permits10:00 Why America Struggles to Coordinate Economic Policy11:00 Why Supply Chains Are Harder to Map Than They Look12:16 What Happens When Everything Becomes Strategic?12:48 Why America Needs More Than Free Markets13:54 The Industries America Can Rebuild First14:57 Industrial Policy Without Central Planning15:31 Who Pays for Reindustrialization?16:49 The Political Trade-Offs of Rebuilding Industry18:08 The Long-Term Cost of Deindustrialization18:57 Will Working-Class Americans Actually Benefit?20:21 Can Manufacturing Narrow the Class Divide?21:48 Building an Economy That Works Across Classes22:16 What Does American Economic Nationalism Mean?23:03 Why Different Political Camps Support Industrial Policy24:14 Why Practical Needs Can Matter More Than Ideology25:10 Is Pragmatism Driving American Industrial Policy?26:34 Can America Compete With China’s Economic Model?27:13 Why American Finance Could Help Rebuild Industry28:28 China’s Manufacturing Strength—and Its Limits28:55 What the U.S. Must Prove to China30:19 Can America Fund Long-Term Industrial Growth?31:07 How Realistic Is American Reindustrialization?32:08 The Bottlenecks Still Holding America Back32:59 The Race to Deliver Results33:46 Why American Affairs MattersSupport the show

Historian Barbara Keys joins Clearer Than Truth to examine the making, breaking, and remaking of Henry Kissinger’s legacy. Drawing on her book Super K: The Making, Breaking, and Remaking of Henry Kissinger’s Legacy, Keys explores how Kissinger cultivated journalists, managed his public image, used personal relationships and behind-the-scenes pressure to influence coverage, and maintained extraordinary influence for decades after leaving office. She examines the gap between his private policy positions and public presentation, his support for repressive anti-communist governments, and the role of the human rights movement in reshaping how his record is judged. The conversation also considers Kissinger’s diplomatic relationships across political divides and the media’s role in sustaining his reputation, raising a broader question about how power, access, and storytelling shape the way history remembers political leaders.00:00 Barbara Keys on Henry Kissinger’s Legacy00:53 Why Reexamine Kissinger Now?01:47 Why Criticism Bothered Kissinger03:08 How Powerful Figures Edit Their Own Histories04:00 When Kissinger Could Influence the Media04:50 The Myth of the Grand Strategist06:28 How Kissinger Entered Nixon’s Circle07:29 How Kissinger Won Over Journalists08:30 Charm, Threats, and Media Pressure09:48 When Kissinger Demanded Special Treatment10:51 Kissinger’s Private Views on Ukraine12:56 How Kissinger Changed His Public Positions14:41 The Power of Strategic Ambiguity15:59 Kissinger’s Private Position on Cambodia17:13 How Kissinger Leaked Secrets to the Press18:07 The Lost Art of International Diplomacy?19:36 How Kissinger Built Global Relationships20:57 How Kissinger Stayed Influential for 46 Years21:27 The Memoirs That Shaped His Reputation22:20 Kissinger’s Celebrity Persona23:47 Why Kissinger Opposed Human Rights in Foreign Policy24:52 How the Human Rights Movement Challenged His Legacy26:32 Why Kissinger Won the Nobel Peace Prize27:25 Kissinger’s Late-Life Fascination With AI28:51 How Kissinger Wanted History to Remember Him29:43 Why His Reputation Changed After the Cold War30:45 Will Kissinger’s Legacy Change Again?31:52 What Future Biographies May Reveal33:50 The Most Dangerous Lesson of the Kissinger Myth34:16 How the Media Helped Build Kissinger’s Reputation35:24 What Kissinger’s Legacy Teaches Us About Media Influence35:51 Where to Find Barbara Keys’s WorkSupport the show

Vali Nasr joins Clearer Than Truth to explain why Americans often misunderstand the forces shaping the Middle East. Nasr argues that the region cannot be understood simply through religion, terrorism, or ancient sectarian divisions; instead, geopolitics, competition for power, contested borders, resources, and outside intervention are central to understanding its conflicts. He examines the evolution of terrorism, explaining why it has never been exclusively a product of poverty or religious extremism, before turning to Iran’s grand strategy and the legacy of Ayatollah Khamenei’s resistance to American influence. Nasr also assesses the failures and constraints of U.S. policy toward Iran, the consequences of a potential Iranian nuclear capability, and the possibility of a broader nuclear race across the Middle East. He closes with a warning that the current war may fundamentally reshape the regional order—and that the United States needs to prepare for a Middle East that may look very different when the fighting ends.00:00 Vali Nasr on the Middle East00:58 What America Gets Wrong About the Middle East02:42 Why Sectarianism Doesn't Explain Everything04:28 How Americans Misunderstand the Region05:29 The Borders That Created Modern Conflict07:12 Why Israel-Palestine Is More Recent Than You Think08:23 What Americans Get Wrong About Terrorism09:14 The End of the War on Terror10:59 Terrorism Before Al-Qaeda12:28 The Strategy Behind Terrorist Violence13:46 Why Wealthy People Join Terrorist Groups16:04 Why So Many Terrorists Studied Science17:57 Iran's Grand Strategy20:05 Where Iran's Strategy Has Failed21:23 Why Iran Keeps Resisting the U.S.22:19 Iran's Forever War With America23:12 What Obama Got Right—and Wrong—About Iran25:18 The Limits of American Influence27:11 Why Obama Chose the Nuclear Deal28:35 Obama Was More Realist Than Idealist29:45 What If Iran Gets a Nuclear Bomb?31:11 India, Pakistan and the Nuclear Lesson33:14 Why Iran Might Want Nuclear Deterrence34:21 Could Iran Trigger a Middle East Nuclear Race?36:01 How Nuclear Iran Changes the Region37:18 The Risk of a Wider Nuclear Order37:46 The Middle East May Never Go Back38:36 Could This War Get Much Worse?39:26 How the Middle East Could Reshape the West40:28 What Comes After the War?41:40 What America Can Learn From History42:34 ClosingSupport the show

James M. Lindsay joins Clearer Than Truth for a wide-ranging conversation about the future of American power and the international system the United States helped build. Lindsay is a longtime scholar of U.S. foreign policy and the policymaking process at the Council on Foreign Relations, where he previously served as senior vice president and director of studies and where he hosts The President's Inbox.For roughly eight decades, American foreign policy has operated around an assumption that U.S. security and prosperity depend on an active role in the world. Lindsay argues that consensus is now under enormous strain, but says the story did not begin with Donald Trump. The American-led system has evolved through several distinct eras, from the bipolar Cold War order to the post-Cold War “unipolar moment,” before the return of great-power competition forced Washington to confront a more complicated geopolitical environment.The conversation then turns inward, examining the changing balance between Congress and the presidency. Lindsay explains why the modern “imperial presidency” predates 9/11, how Congress gradually gave presidents greater discretion in foreign policy, and why that authority has proven difficult to reclaim. He also discusses the limits of courts as a check on presidential power and the enduring political difficulty of constraining a president once military action has begun.Lindsay also examines the emerging cooperation among China, Russia, Iran, and North Korea, cautioning against treating them as a formal alliance while acknowledging the growing incentives for bilateral cooperation among them. The discussion ultimately returns to the larger question: what comes after American primacy? Lindsay argues that the American-led order is coming to an end, but says historians will debate for years how much of that decline was structural and how much resulted from America's own decisions.00:00 James M. Lindsay on the Future of American Power01:04 What Broke America's Foreign-Policy Consensus?01:54 From the Cold War to the Unipolar Moment02:58 The Return of Geopolitics03:28 Why Congress Lost Influence Over Foreign Policy04:56 The Rise of the Imperial Presidency05:46 What Congress Learned From the 1930s07:44 Why Presidents Were Given So Much Discretion08:06 How Presidents Expanded Their Authority09:14 Why Courts Rarely Check Presidential Power10:11 The Courts, Trump & National Security12:30 When Expansive Presidential Power Serves a Purpose13:55 How Far Can the President Go Militarily?15:21 Congress and the Authorization of War16:22 Why Congress Struggles to Rein In Presidents18:12 Is There Really an Axis of Autocracies?19:20 Why China, Russia, Iran & North Korea Cooperate21:01 Why You Should Watch What Countries Do22:03 Why Military Power Doesn't Equal Victory23:07 Can Economic Pressure Bring Down Iran?24:45 Can Leaders Become Too Detached From Their People?25:51 Why Iran Hasn't Become Another Vietnam26:21 How War Hits Americans at Home28:56 What Vietnam Teaches Us About Public Trust29:49 Can America Split the Axis of Autocracies?31:03 Why the Nixon-Kissinger Strategy May Not Work Today32:13 Why Regime Change Is So Hard to Predict33:24 Was American Bipartisanship Ever Real?34:03 Washington, Jefferson & America's First Foreign-Policy Fight36:20 What Institutions Like CFR Actually Do37:30 From Diagnosis to Policy to Implementation38:25 The American-Led Order Is Ending39:35 Was America's Decline Inevitable?40:10 The Mistakes That Weakened American Leadership41:54 Did America Fall Behind China?42:21 How U.S. Policy May Have Accelerated Decline43:21 What Happens to American Leadership Now?Support the show

Joby Warrick returns to Clearer Than Truth to discuss his new book, The Jackal: The Rise and Fall of Carlos the World's First Super-Terrorist. A two-time Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist for The Washington Post, Warrick has spent decades reporting on terrorism, intelligence failures, and the conflicts shaping the modern Middle East. This time, he goes back to the 1970s to examine the extraordinary career of Carlos the Jackal and what his story can tell us about terrorism today.Carlos was more than a terrorist for hire. Warrick describes him as a remarkably flexible figure who moved between Palestinian militant organizations, communist governments, intelligence networks, dictators, and eventually anyone willing to employ him. His ideology was often secondary to his ambition, ego, and desire to become a revolutionary celebrity. But his greatest innovation was understanding the power of spectacle. The early terrorist groups around Carlos realized that attacks far from the battlefield could force television cameras, governments, and the public to pay attention to a cause.Warrick traces how those tactics evolved through the 1970s and eventually influenced later terrorist organizations, including al-Qaeda. The conversation also examines the OPEC siege, Carlos's relationships with state sponsors, the conditions that allow terrorist movements to emerge, and the danger of creating new generations of extremists through war, instability, and political collapse.The conversation ultimately moves from history to the present. Warrick warns that the combination of weapons of mass destruction and artificial intelligence could create new opportunities for terrorist organizations, while the deterioration of international cooperation may make it harder for states to contain them. Carlos the Jackal may belong to another era, but the methods he helped pioneer, particularly the use of spectacle, proxies, and permissive environments, remain relevant.00:00 Joby Warrick on Carlos the Jackal00:53 Why Go Back to Carlos Now?02:30 What Actually Drove Carlos?04:47 Carlos the Jackal and Today's Terrorists06:23 The Rise of Proxy Terrorism07:43 How Terrorism Became a Global Spectacle09:16 Why Terrorists Wanted the Cameras10:03 The International Terrorism Network of the 1970s11:44 The Shift From Secular to Religious Terrorism12:11 The OPEC Siege: Carlos's Most Audacious Attack14:01 Gaddafi and the OPEC Plot15:35 Why Gaddafi Abandoned Carlos16:20 Are Terrorists Products of Failed States?17:33 Why Carlos Became a Legend18:16 How Dangerous Was Carlos Really?19:21 The Incredible Mistakes of Carlos the Jackal20:00 Why States Keep Getting Terrorism Wrong20:46 The Conditions That Produce Terrorism22:18 Are We Creating the Next Generation of Terrorists?24:10 The Threat of AI and Weapons of Mass Destruction25:47 What Made Carlos Different?27:10 Why Carlos Needed to See Himself as a Hero28:20 How Carlos Was Finally Captured30:54 What al-Qaeda Learned From Carlos32:59 Did Carlos Ever Regret What He Did?34:22 The One Thing Carlos Regretted35:00 How Many People Did Carlos Really Kill?36:26 Could a Weaker World Order Bring More Terrorism?37:07 The Decline of International Cooperation38:22 How Carlos Wants to Be Remembered39:28 Closing ThoughtsSupport the show

Richard Overy is one of the world's leading historians of the Second World War and the history of warfare. In this episode of Clearer Than Truth, Overy draws on decades of research to examine one of the most enduring questions in international politics: why do leaders continue to choose war when history repeatedly demonstrates how difficult it is to control?The conversation begins with the dangers of comparing today's conflicts too directly to the 1930s and 1940s. Overy argues that today's geopolitical environment is fundamentally different, particularly because of nuclear weapons and the existence of the United States and China as major global powers. Yet some historical patterns remain strikingly familiar. Leaders can become convinced that their opponents are weaker than they are, underestimate the costs of conflict, and assume that military force can produce a quick and decisive outcome.Overy also explores Russia's war in Ukraine, Putin's understanding of Russia's place in the world, the lessons China may be drawing from the conflict, and whether the emerging relationships between Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea constitute a genuine strategic coalition. He argues against simplistic historical analogies and warns that viewing every geopolitical rivalry through a disaster scenario can obscure the differences between today's world and the past.The discussion ultimately returns to Overy's central argument in Why War: technology changes, weapons change, and international systems change—but human beings remain capable of making the same fundamental mistake: believing that war is the solution when it may become the problem.00:00 Richard Overy on the Dangers of Historical Analogies00:30 Is Imperialism Really Back?01:49 Why a Third World War Is Different Today02:43 The Nuclear Lesson of the Cuban Missile Crisis03:10 How Regional Wars Become Global Conflicts04:09 Why World War Isn't Inevitable04:57 How Much Does Personality Matter in War?06:16 Putin, Russia & the Psychology of Encirclement08:30 Why Putin Isn't Stalin09:22 Russia's Search for Great-Power Status11:33 Why Leaders Underestimate War13:32 What Leaders Miss When They Ignore History15:07 What China Is Learning From Ukraine16:20 Would China Really Invade Taiwan?17:10 Could America Push China Toward Conflict?18:31 The Historical Roots of U.S.-China Rivalry20:25 Is the West Ready for a Major War?21:23 Why Modern War Still Looks Like World War II22:55 Will AI and Cyberwar Change Warfare?24:08 Is There Really an Authoritarian Axis?26:19 Why Wartime Coalitions Eventually Break Apart27:57 The Danger of Leaders Hearing Only What They Want30:09 What Could Actually Remove Putin?31:22 Why Do Humans Keep Choosing War?32:56 The Lesson Today's Leaders Must Remember33:53 Is There Any Reason for Optimism?35:08 Richard Overy's Next Book: Hitler's Long Afterlife36:20 Why Are We Still Fascinated by Hitler?37:53 Was Hitler More Evil Than Other Dictators?38:56 Hitler, Ideology & the Holocaust39:31 Closing ThoughtsSupport the show

Robert Zoellick, former U.S. Trade Representative, Deputy Secretary of State, and President of the World Bank, joins Clearer Than Truth for a wide-ranging conversation about globalization, trade, American power, and the future of the international order.Zoellick argues that the backlash against globalization has become intertwined with a broader backlash against elites and established institutions—but warns that the United States risks responding to legitimate concerns in ways that ultimately make the country weaker. He defends the strategic logic behind NAFTA and North American economic integration, arguing that a stronger relationship with Canada and Mexico gives the United States a powerful economic and security advantage in a world increasingly shaped by China. The conversation then turns to the weaponization of economic interdependence, protectionism, supply-chain resilience, and the danger of using national security as a justification for restricting trade. Zoellick argues that the United States should build greater resilience and redundancy where necessary—but shouldn't mistake economic isolation for security. He makes a similar case regarding China: compete aggressively in critical areas, but remain focused on staying technologically ahead rather than simply trying to shut the world off.  Zoellick also examines the health of America's democratic institutions and the international alliances that underpin U.S. power. He warns that undermining confidence in elections, the rule of law, independent institutions, and America's commitments to allies can have consequences far beyond domestic politics. Drawing on his experience during the end of the Cold War and the global financial crisis, he argues that institutions can adapt to profound changes—but they must be strengthened rather than dismantled.  The episode ultimately becomes a discussion about what comes next. Zoellick believes the international system is being disrupted and that a new generation will have an opportunity to reshape it. His advice is straightforward: avoid unnecessary conflicts, maintain openness to capital and talented people, and preserve the alliances and institutions that allow the United States to lead without having to dominate.00:00 Robert Zoellick on the Backlash Against Globalization 01:14 Was NAFTA a Mistake? 02:21 Why Mexico Joined NAFTA 03:48 Is America Destroying North America? 04:35 The Strategic Case for North American Integration 06:31 Why America Needs Mexico and Canada 08:10 America's Relationship With Canada 09:59 Globalization Isn't Going Away 10:25 How Economic Interdependence Can Be Weaponized 12:07 The Hidden Cost of Protectionism 13:24 Should America Buy From China? 14:14 Zoellick's Biggest Regret About NAFTA 16:35 Can Trade Rules Keep Up With China? 18:29 The Real Economics of U.S.-Canada Trade 20:25 Why Economic Change Creates Political Backlash 21:09 Can America's Institutions Survive? 22:02 The Threat to American Democracy 23:14 Is Congress Losing Its Power? 24:07 Could America's Alliances Unravel? 25:23 The Lessons of the Cold War 26:42 Was NATO Expansion a Mistake? 27:31 Why NATO Still Matters 28:18 How to Support Ukraine Without NATO Membership 29:02 Can America Adapt the World Order? 30:32 America Has Always Had to Fight for Consensus 31:24 Can America Manage Competition With China? 32:05 Can the U.S. and China Cooperate on AI? 32:26 Don't Make America More Like China 34:31 America's Energy Security Problem 36:20 Why Allies Matter in a Conflict With China 37:10 The Best Strategy Against China 37:54 Can America's Institutions Survive Another Crisis? 39:19 The Lesson of the Global Financial Crisis 40:22 Why America Still Has to Lead 40:47 The Next Generation Will Remake the World 41:12 Zoellick's Advice for the Future 42:09 Closing ThoughtsSupport the show