Episode 212: Embracing Your Journey | A Conversation with Kathie Debenham

How much in the Church is still, in 2025, coming to us through the male lens? Pretty much all of it. Our scriptures, doctrine, ward boundaries, curriculum, conference talks, local leadership, and decisions are almost entirely by and/or about men. A women’s organization made and presided over by men is not really a women’s organization, is it? How could men ever describe or define women—our roles, attributes, or experiences—not as they see us, but as we actually are? In Episode 220, Cynthia and Susan wrap the season of zooming-out conversations by examining how the male gaze continues to shape and distort women's religious experience.

Linda Hamilton explains, “I spent my whole life believing that spirituality was in big things. Visions from heaven, angels, signs. We always say in Mormonism, don't wait for a sign. You won't get a sign; you won't get a miracle. We say that...and then we go up in testimony meeting and talk about some sign we received." She describes having spent much of her youth wondering how to get things like signs, or a surefire testimony. "And now," she says, "I've really embraced [that] spirituality is small things. It's yoga, it's going for a walk, it's my cats, it's going to a Taylor Swift concert and feeling in communion with thousands of women." In Episode 219, Linda joins Susan and Cynthia for a conversation about where she’s been, what she’s learned, and how her experiences inform the path she’s walking now.

Therapist C.A. Larson defines a high-demand religion as “a religious group that exerts significant control over its members' beliefs, behaviors, and daily lives. These groups often require strict adherence to doctrine, discourage independent thinking, and use social, psychological, or spiritual pressure to maintain compliance.” In Episode 218, C.A. joins Susan and Cynthia for an exploration of high-demand religions and the impact they can have on their members’ mental and spiritual health. Though individual experiences will vary, this discussion zooms out to highlight the significant overlap between characteristics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and other churches that fit the high-demand criteria.

“We have direct access to light and knowledge and power, and we have the right—the divinely given right—to take that power, even if it says to us something different from how the authorities or power structures over us may be thinking. If it's the thing that's right and true for ourselves, we are benefited when we follow the dictates of our own conscience,” says Laurie Lee Hall. She joins Susan and Cynthia in Episode 217 for a conversation about trusting ourselves in the journey toward wholeness. Laurie Lee’s personal experiences bear out her advice: “We nourish [the Spirit] by hearing it, recognizing it, expressing internal appreciation for it, and acting upon it.”

These days it seems Latter-day Saints talk about the importance of temple attendance in almost every meeting and lesson. It makes sense: in 2001, then-Elder Russell M. Nelson explained, “Every activity, every lesson, all we do in the Church, point to the Lord and His Holy house.”  But might this relentless focus on a thing not all members participate in work as a separator in our congregations, communities, and relationships? In Episode 216, Susan and Cynthia return to the topic of the temple for a fourth time. It’s a discussion that touches on everything from recommends to what Jesus shows and tells us about it in the Bible. Spoiler: It’s complicated.

Shibboleths are customs, traditions, words, or phrasings that distinguish one group of people from another. Latter-day Saints have a lot of unique identifiers. Garment lines, beverage choices, vocabulary, or prayer styles might serve as reliable clues to whether or not someone belongs to our church. In Episode 215, Cynthia and Susan talk about some of these shibboleths and how they function within our culture to identify not only whether or not someone is a member, but in some cases what type of member they are.

“Wouldn’t it be a good idea to have a book about girls who ask great questions?” This question from a 9-year-old inspired authors McArthur Krishna and Anne Pimentel to create their book Changemakers: Women Who Boldly Built Zion. By highlighting women’s stories, the book affirms our roles in building, growing, and sustaining the Church—influencing organization, policy, and culture. In Episode 214, Cynthia and Susan are joined by the authors for a conversation about specific ways women’s voices have mattered historically, and how we might continue to influence and effect change today and in the future.

“What is it like to be an introvert in a church that really supports extroversion?" When therapist C.A. Larson asked this question in a previous episode, it was a lightbulb moment for many listeners. Through voicemails, emails, and on social media, women of the ALSSI community reported feeling seen, and understanding their own church experiences in a new way. In Episode 213, Susan and Cynthia share and discuss the messages listeners submitted, as well as their own experiences. What might our church gain from fully embracing all personality types?

“My faith is this process of evolving, ebbing, flowing, forming, reforming, shaping, shape shifting,” explains Kathie Debenham. It’s no surprise that she describes her faith as a moving thing; as a dancer, her education includes a graduate certification focused on “observing, describing, recording, and making meaning of movement.” In Episode 212, Kathie joins Susan and Cynthia to talk about her personal journey—where she’s been, where she is, and how she intends to keep moving. She says, “I have given myself permission to allow my faith to continue to evolve as informed by my spiritual practice and by the light and knowledge I'm seeking.”

When asked about the possibility of priesthood ordination for women in 1998, Pres. Gordon B. Hinckley famously told Larry King, “It would take another revelation to bring that about. I don’t anticipate it.” Big changes have come following revelations in LDS history, but must prophetic revelation always precede change? Even on a local level, many leaders are hesitant to innovate in small ways. Natalie Brown posits that “not every small experiment should require prophetic sign off.” In Episode 211, she joins Cynthia and Susan for a conversation about how change happens—or doesn’t—at church. Do debate and discussion have a place, and if so, whose opinions should be considered? And what about transparency in the decision-making process?