The next stop on the For the Love of The Enneagram train takes us to the land of the Enneagram Threes (also known as The Achievers). Leading us today are two Threes—someone you may know named Jen Hatmaker who’s a Three, and Lisa Whelchel. Lisa’s an actor (you may know her best as Blair from the ‘80s sitcom “The Facts of Life”), author, speaker, and life coach who is not only a Three herself, but who also raised a Three, and she’s just walked through a twelve-year journey of deconstructing and reconstructing everything about her life: everything she knows and everything she believed about herself and her faith. She’s dismantled so many internal walls that now, in her words, the love can flow without blocks. Lisa has bravely stepped out of safety and security in the pursuit of being whole, though her natural instincts told her to hide from the shame and fear she felt. She’s learned to overcome crowd-pleasing in order to live her own truth and be her most authentic self, and she shares what it looks like to be in a marriage and in conflict with someone of this type. And stay tuned at the end to hear from composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping At Last), who shares his thoughts behind the music he created for the incredibly special Enneagram Three in his life.
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More episodes from "For The Love With Jen Hatmaker Podcast"
Enneagram Eights - Sarajane Case & Abi Robins on The Challengers
1:00:56Make way for the Enneagram Eights! On this week’s episode, we get to chat with not one, but two experts about the steely armor and tender insides that make up The Challengers, as they’re sometimes called. Sarajane Case of Enneagram & Coffee helps us unpack the hallmark characteristic of an Eight—their strength—and reveals that an Eight’s strength typically stems from childhood happenings that trigger the notion that they have to take care of themselves, which they can also wrap around their loved ones and those in need. This protective instinct means that Eights aren’t intimidated by opposition, but they do fear being betrayed or controlled—and when that happens, it can appear that Eights don’t need a shoulder to lean on. But, as Sarajane shows us, in order to love an Eight well, they need to see strength in us so that they can release the heavy responsibility they feel to carry the world’s weight on their shoulders. Abi Robins of Conscious Enneagram shares their expertise as not only an Eight themselves, but also as a teacher of The Narrative Enneagram. Abi also breaks down a new-to-us Enneagram term called “subtypes,” of which there are three—self-preservation, one-to-one, and social—and shows how these subtypes affect the way our Enneagram numbers play out in the world. Abi opens up about the incredible resilience that Eights possess and vulnerably shares what type Eight growth looks like to someone with a marginalized identity. Abi explains that a heated exchange that may look like an argument to some types is just a problem-solving, connective conversation to an Eight, and how that willingness to engage with an Eight, even when it’s messy, is the key to unlocks an Eight’s trust. Make sure you listen all the way through the hear how composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping at Last) created a piece as strong as the Eights are, with a little touch of vulnerability that those who are close to Eights are lucky enough to glimpse. * * * Rothy's | Check out all the stylish and sustainable shoes (and amazing bags!) at rothys.com/forthelove BetterHelp | Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/forthelove Stamps.com | Start your 4-week trial (plus, get free postage and a digital scale) at stamps.com, and enter FORTHELOVE
Enneagram Sevens - Bob Goff on The Enthusiasts
47:21Enneagram Sevens! You can’t say it without an exclamation point, right? This week we look at what many consider to be the most “fun” number on the Enneagram—known as The Enthusiasts for good reason! To guide us is a true Seven among Sevens and friend of the podcast, Bob Goff. Bob is a man of many hats—attorney, honorary consul, author, and humanitarian, to name a few. He’s here to share about the power of a Seven’s joy, their ability to have big dreams and ideas, and that a Seven’s enthusiasm isn’t as spontaneous as you would think—there’s planning and thought behind it. As part of the thinking triad, these joyful strategists are full of situational awareness. They’re in tune with examining why they do the things they do, but they also carry a deep fear of rejection. Sevens possess a beautiful, natural curiosity about possibilities. They’re excellent at saying, “Let’s just see what will happen . . .” and they’re brave enough to take those chances. Sevens strive for meaning, not just surface-level joy. As Jen puts it, “These are people that really come alongside the rest of us and go, ‘What's your dream? You can do this.’” Also, if you stick around to the end of the episode, you’ll be delighted to hear composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping at Last) talk about how he crafted a piece for Sevens inspired by Disney classics like Peter Pan and Inside Out—and you’ll hear Bob Goff himself, who contributed his own ukulele stylings to the piece (such a Seven thing to do!). * * * Thank you to our sponsors! FabFitFun | Get $10 off your first box when you go to https://fabfitfun.com and use the code FTL at checkout Jen Hatmaker Book Club | Join today at https://jenhatmakerbookclub.com Jo Saxton Leadership Coaching | Sign up for a 30-day trial (and access the workshop led by Be the Bridge’s LaTasha Morrison) at http://josaxtonleadershipcoaching.com/forthelove
Jen and Sydney Hatmaker On Being Gay and Loved
42:43On this incredibly meaningful, special bonus episode of For the Love, in honor of Pride Month, a mother and daughter come together to have a frank and beautiful conversation about what it’s like to grow up as the daughter of a popular Christian author and speaker and in a household steeped in the church . . . and realize you’re gay. This is Jen and Sydney Hatmaker’s experience—and in this episode, Sydney and her mom tell their story so that parents, family, and friends of LGBTQ+ kids who need trustworthy voices to lead them into love and affirmation will find hope here. Sydney bravely and tenderly shares how she grappled with reconciling her sexuality and her spirituality, all the while wondering if God would still love her if she decided to build a life where she could be who she was meant to be. The pair candidly discuss Sydney’s initial silent journey and Jen’s deep regret at not being more aware of what her daughter needed during these early days as Sydney wrestled alone with who she was. Jen and Sydney make a call to Christians to look at what it means to really love our LGBTQ+ family: recognizing them wholly as God’s children, who are wholly loved by God. Sydney also gives us insight into how we can come alongside our LGBTQ+ family by showing us what meaningful allyship looks like: supporting and protecting those who are subject to marginalization with tangible actions filled with love. * * * Thank you to our episode sponsors! Ancestry | Get your AncestryDNA kit and start your free trial at ancestry.com/forthelove Queer RelationTips Podcast | Listen and subscribe today, wherever you get your podcasts.
Enneagram Sixes - Ashton Brye on The Loyalists
49:18On today’s peek behind the Enneagram curtain, we get to learn all about Type Sixes—the Loyalists—and what makes them tick. Graphic designer, Enneagram artist, and Disney cast member Ashton Brye shares how she discovered the Enneagram, applied her own artistic and pop culture spin on it, and voila! Her Instagram following @ashton.creates skyrocketed, all born out of her desire to learn more about all the Enneagram types. As a Six herself, Ashton breaks down for us how Sixes have a deep longing for safety and security, which they find through preparedness. Unfortunately, that need to be on top of things can often be mistakenly labeled for anxiety and fear. Sixes are crazy loyal and responsible, and they value structure. As Ashton shares, when a Six goes in on something, they go all in--which is why they make excellent friends. Ashton talks a little bit about how it’s hard for Sixes to turn their minds off and relax without thinking about what needs to get done in the future, that for Sixes, it’s a balance of learning what can wait. In conflict, like in everything else they do, Sixes are all in, and they crave reassurance from others that you aren’t going to leave them. And PS: don’t forget to stick around until the end of the episode to hear composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping at Last) talk about how he crafted a soothing, safe, and whimsical musical piece inspired by type Sixes. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Noom | Start your trial today at noom.com/fortheloveBetterHelp | Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/fortheloveLaurel Springs | Register your child at laurelsprings.com/forthelove today and receive a waived registration fee
Enneagram Fives - Dr. Avon Manney & Knox McCoy on The Investigators
1:04:54Today we begin a deep dive into the head triad, starting with Type Fives—the Investigators. And because there’s so much to learn about the complex Fives, we have not one but two guests to share their input: Enneagram expert Dr. Avon Manney, and podcaster/author/Enneagram Five Knox McCoy. Dr. Avon (a Nine married to a Five!) shares how she started applying the Enneagram to her osteopathy practice so she could help patients heal emotional issues that were manifesting in her patients’ bodies. She talks about how Fives are explorers who want to know how and why things work the way they do. Taking Dr. Avon’s insights a step further and giving us a peek under the hood, Knox explains how that exploration shows up in his own life—as a Five, he’s motivated to make sure he shows up as competent and prepared in every situation. Knox also breaks down something Fives suffer from called “catastrophic depletion,” which basically means Fives have a limited energy reservoir, and once it’s gone for the day, it is gone. As profoundly efficient fixers, Fives possess a beautiful clarity of thought, a thirst for knowledge, and an unparalleled loyalty for those they love. And just wait until you make it to the end, when we hear from composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping At Last), about how he completed a music piece inspired by Fives—his longest piece in the whole series! * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Ancestry | Head to ancestry.com/forthelove to get your AncestryDNA kit and start your free trial. KiwiCo | Get 30% off your first month on select crates at kiwico.com/forthelove. Laurel Springs | Register your child at laurelsprings.com/forthelove today and receive a waived registration fee.
[BONUS] White Women’s Toxic Tears, with Lisa Sharon Harper
1:08:56In light of the uprisings of the past weeks, it is not enough to perform wokeness. We need true solidarity. True solidarity requires an understanding of the historical and cultural roots and current-day patterns of white women’s betrayals of people of color. It will also require repair. This is a raw, honest, informative, solidarity-building conversation with author and Freedom Road founder and president Lisa Sharon Harper.
Enneagram Fours - Ian Cron on The Individualists
59:02Our Enneagram series continues with another type who rounds out the heart triad: the beautifully complex Type Fours (also known as The Romantics). To lead us on all things Type Four, we have an incredible returning guest: a Four himself, Ian Morgan Cron. Ian wears many hats—Enneagram expert, author of The Road Back to You, host of Typology Podcast, priest and psychotherapist, to name a few—and his Fourness is revealed in his beautiful, open posture toward humanity. He walks us through how Fours believe that they have an “unredeemable deficiency,” how they feel a little different and off-center, and have a vague dissatisfaction with themselves. Typically seen as the most complex of all the Enneagram numbers, Fours seek to be special in some way to fill this inner void, and the road to being a healthy Four is when they realize that “specialness” isn’t their sole path to being loved. Ian shares personally his experience that the superpower of a Four is emotional intuitiveness and empathy; Fours are equipped to come alongside people in their dark moments and walk through the suffering with them, and they tend to gravitate towards spaces in which they can uniquely contribute to conversation. Conversely, Fours in conflict tend to withdraw, and Ian shares how they can be lovingly drawn out. And don’t forget to stick around until the end to hear from composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping At Last), who shares his process for crafting a music piece as uniquely complex as Type Fours.
Enneagram Threes - Lisa Whelchel on The Achievers
1:03:00The next stop on the For the Love of The Enneagram train takes us to the land of the Enneagram Threes (also known as The Achievers). Leading us today are two Threes—someone you may know named Jen Hatmaker who’s a Three, and Lisa Whelchel. Lisa’s an actor (you may know her best as Blair from the ‘80s sitcom “The Facts of Life”), author, speaker, and life coach who is not only a Three herself, but who also raised a Three, and she’s just walked through a twelve-year journey of deconstructing and reconstructing everything about her life: everything she knows and everything she believed about herself and her faith. She’s dismantled so many internal walls that now, in her words, the love can flow without blocks. Lisa has bravely stepped out of safety and security in the pursuit of being whole, though her natural instincts told her to hide from the shame and fear she felt. She’s learned to overcome crowd-pleasing in order to live her own truth and be her most authentic self, and she shares what it looks like to be in a marriage and in conflict with someone of this type. And stay tuned at the end to hear from composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping At Last), who shares his thoughts behind the music he created for the incredibly special Enneagram Three in his life. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! FabFitFun | Go to fabfitfun.com and use the code HATMAKER at checkout to get $10 off your first box. #fabfitfunpartner BestFiends | Download for FREE at the Apple App Store or Google Play. Ancestry | Head to Ancestry.com/forthelove to get your AncestryDNA kit and start your free trial.
Enneagram Twos - Phileena Heuertz on The Helpers
50:36Our next installment of For the Love of The Enneagram brings us to wonderful Enneagram Twos (aka The Helpers!). And leading our discussion is Phileena Heuertz, a spiritual director and Enneagram expert who, as a Two herself, knows how it feels to love others and want to help them as much as she can, while at the same time longing to feel accepted for who she is, not necessarily what she does for others. Years ago, after Phileena began to study the Enneagram a bit more and felt deeply seen by it, she began to ask herself some deep, probing questions about her Twoness: What is my motivation for serving others? Am I doing it to fulfill my need to be loved? If I stop serving you, will you still love me? And finally, Phileena realized she could find true freedom once she gave herself permission to take care of her own needs so that she could be her happiest, healthiest, and most authentic self—which would help her care for others even more deeply. Also featured in this episode is composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping At Last), who shares his thoughts behind the music he created for the special Enneagram Twos in his life. * * * Thank you to our episode sponsors! Noom | Start your trial today at noom.com/forthelove BetterHelp | Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/forthelove Laurel Springs | Register your child at laurelsprings.com/forthelove and receive a waived registration fee
Enneagram Ones - The Reformers with Fr. Richard Rohr
53:22Last week, we launched our brand-new Enneagram series, and today we begin our deep-dive into each of the nine numbers. We’re starting right at the top with Enneagram Ones—and who’s better to talk about Ones than with For the Love favorite, Fr. Richard Rohr? While we’ve been obsessed with the Enneagram for only a few years, Fr. Richard has been studying it for decades, and he has keen insight into the personality assessment. As a One himself, Fr. Richard opens the door into what it’s like to live inside the head of a One, and how even from an early age, Ones work so hard to be dependable, solutions-driven people. After years of trying to solve the world’s problems, Fr. Richard found freedom when he realized he couldn’t—and that was okay (plus, he found his relationships could be richer when he learned to enjoy being right without proclaiming to be right). Whether you’re a One, you love a One, or you’re raising a One, Fr. Richard’s insights are revelatory as he speaks about the motivations behind the type, how to approach conflict with Ones, and what it feels like to constantly have a critic inside your own head. And be sure to stick around to hear from composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping At Last) and listen to his thoughts behind the music he crafted specifically for Ones, which appears all throughout this episode. * * * Jen’s new book, “Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire” is out now! http://fierceandfreebook.com * * * Thanks to our episode sponsors! - KiwiCo | Get your first month free on select crates at kiwico.com/forthelove - Aspen Lane |Get 10% off your order with discount code FORTHELOVE at shopaspenlane.com - Jen Hatmaker Book Club | Join the best book club community on the internet! jenhatmakerbookclub.com