The Former Lawyer Podcast with Sarah Cottrell

Informational interviews can be one of the most useful parts of making a career change for lawyers, even though they're often the part people dread most. When you're trying to figure out what you want to do instead of practicing law, it's easy to spend hours researching different careers without getting much closer to a decision. Talking to people who actually do those jobs can help you figure out much more quickly whether they're worth pursuing.The challenge is that lawyers often go into informational interviews feeling like they need to impress the person they're talking to or prove they'd be good at the job. That pressure can make the whole process unnecessarily intimidating, especially when you're not even sure you want the job in the first place. The goal of these conversations is to find out what the work is actually like and whether the things you're assuming about it are true. Knowing that changes both the questions you ask and what you can learn from the answers.In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah Cottrell explains how to approach informational interviews as a lawyer, including how to identify people to talk to, what questions to ask, and why understanding your assumptions about a potential career matters. She also talks about why finding out a job isn't right for you can be just as helpful as discovering one that is.0:29 - Why informational interviews are often the hardest part of a career change for lawyers1:47 - The assumptions lawyers make about careers they haven't experienced2:41 - Getting clarity faster through informational interviews instead of more research4:27 - The purpose of an informational interview and why lawyers feel pressure to impress6:39 - Using informational interviews to test your assumptions about a potential career7:53 - Narrowing down the questions that will help you understand the day-to-day work8:46 - Why ruling out a career option is also valuable progress11:15 - Why you shouldn't ask someone else if you'd be a good fit for their jobMentioned In How to Approach Informational Interviews as a LawyerWork With Sarah One-on-One First Steps to Leaving the Law

Knowing you want to make a change in your legal career doesn't necessarily mean you know what you want to do instead. Maybe you've already tried a different legal job and weren't any happier, or maybe you're wondering whether a different practice area would be enough. Career coaching for lawyers can help when you know you can't keep doing what you're doing, but every time you consider another possibility, you find a reason it wouldn't work.Sarah calls this "lawyering yourself," and it's something she sees all the time with lawyers who are trying to figure out what comes next. It's easy to rule out a potential career before you've actually learned much about it, especially when you're already unsure what might be a good fit. That's why a big part of Sarah's process involves exploring different possibilities, gathering information, and figuring out what actually makes sense for you before narrowing down your options.In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah Cottrell walks through what it's like to work with her one-on-one, from the initial consultation to the exercises, assessments, and informational interviews that help lawyers figure out what they actually want to do. She explains how the Former Lawyer Framework provides structure while allowing flexibility for what's happening in your life, including situations where you need to get out of a toxic job before you've figured out your longer-term plans.0:57 - The initial consultation and figuring out whether you're a good fit1:49 - Career coaching for lawyers who have no idea what they want to do next4:37 - What the one-on-one coaching package includes5:16 - The Former Lawyer Framework and flexibility around your schedule6:37 - Starting with reflection exercises, assessments, and possible career options7:15 - Why lawyers talk themselves out of career options too soon9:21 - Learning to trust yourself instead of relying on someone else to make career decisions11:01 - Finding a bridge job while figuring out your longer-term plans12:18 - What happens during coaching calls and between sessions15:38 - Why Sarah starts with a six-call coaching package18:32 - Upfront pricing, no hard sales tactics, and deciding whether to work togetherMentioned In Career Coaching for Lawyers Who Don’t Know What to Do NextWork With Sarah One-on-One First Steps to Leaving the LawThe Former Lawyer Framework

You worked with a career coach because you wanted to figure out what to do instead of practicing law. Maybe you took assessments, learned more about yourself, and even had a good experience with the coach. Now you're at the end of that process with more information about yourself, but even less of an idea of what you should actually do next.When you're super burned out and going to a toxic job every day, it's understandable to want someone to look at your resume and assessments and just give you an answer. The problem is that a job can make sense based on your skills and work history without being something you actually want to do. You might be able to convince someone to hire you for that role, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit, especially if it's close to the kind of work you're already trying to leave.In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah Cottrell talks about why lawyers sometimes feel more lost after working with a career coach. She explains what assessments can and can't tell you, and why figuring out what to do with that information is such an important part of the process. Sarah also shares what to look for in a career coach and why untangling your identity from being a lawyer can be just as important as figuring out your next career move.0:29 - Feeling more confused after working with a career coach1:38 - Relying too heavily on career assessments to find an answer3:20 - Why assessments don't tell you what to do next4:00 - Using informational interviews to narrow down career options5:09 - Getting support with translating assessment results into actual career options6:22 - Wanting a career coach to just tell you what job you should do7:26 - The difference between a job you can get and one you actually want10:24 - Developing the skills to figure out what feels like the right fit11:58 - Untangling your identity from being a lawyer13:53 - Using therapy to explore why your identity is so tied to your careerMentioned In Why Lawyers Feel More Confused After Career CoachingHow Multiple Assessments Help Lawyers Changing CareersFirst Steps to Leaving the Law

When you're thinking about leaving law, it's easy to convince yourself that you don't have any transferable skills. You've spent years learning how to be a lawyer, and so much of what you do every day feels specific to practicing law. It's hard to imagine how any of that experience would be useful in a job that has nothing to do with the legal profession.Something that lawyers often don't realize is that the skills they take for granted aren't necessarily things everyone else knows how to do. When you're surrounded by other lawyers, being able to hold yourself accountable and get things done doesn't seem particularly special. It's just what you do. Once you get outside the legal profession, though, those same skills can be things that set you apart.In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah Cottrell shares examples of former lawyers who have gone into sales, literary representation, data analysis, and marketing, and how they've used skills they developed practicing law in those roles. She talks about why lawyers tend to underestimate what they bring to other careers and why those skills can be useful in more jobs than you might expect.0:29 - Why lawyers think they don't have transferable skills1:51 - Skills that seem ordinary to lawyers can be selling points in other careers2:29 - Alex Su on accountability as a transferable skill lawyers overlook4:38 - How Lilly Ghahremani uses her legal training as a literary agent5:55 - Dan Branagan on using litigation skills in data analyst interviews7:16 - Ashley Carlisle on applying lawyers' ability to learn in marketing9:24 - Why your transferable skills aren't limited to legal-adjacent jobs10:17 - Finding a role where your existing skills are a better fitMentioned In The Transferable Skills Lawyers Overlook When Leaving LawHow Lawyers Can Rethink Their Skills for Business with Alex Su [TFLP314]From Law School to Literary Agent with Lilly Ghahremani [TFLP250]Escaping the Legal Grind to Build a Balanced Life with Dan Branagan [TFLP248]How to Shift Professionally From Lawyer to Chief Marketing Officer with Ashley Carlisle [TFLP218]First Steps to Leaving the Law

If you want to leave law but have no idea what you want to do next, it can feel like you need to figure out at least a few possible options before you are ready to get help. For a lot of unhappy lawyers, though, the problem is not choosing between several clear career paths. Everything outside of practicing law feels like a complete black box, and they do not even know how to start figuring out what might be a good fit. In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah Cottrell explains why not knowing what you want to do next is actually one of the reasons you might work with her. She talks about how she helps lawyers go from having no idea what their options are to identifying possibilities that match their values, strengths, skills, and personality, and why you do not need to go figure out the basics on your own before that process can be useful.0:29 - Do you need to know what you want to do before working with Sarah1:17 - When everything outside of practicing law feels like a complete black box2:35 - You do not need to know what you want to do next before getting help3:20 - Why not knowing what you want is part of the reason to work with Sarah3:46 - Going from “I have no idea” to options that match your values, strengths, skills, and personalityMentioned In When You Want to Leave Law but Don’t Know What’s NextFirst Steps to Leaving the Law1:1 Coaching with Sarah Cottrell

Being laid off from a legal job can create a lot of anxiety, financial and otherwise. If you’ve been laid off, you’re worried that a layoff might be coming, or you’ve been through one in the past, there are very real practical concerns that come with losing your job. We all have bills, we all need to be responsible adults, and sometimes getting another job practicing law is the choice that makes sense.The question is whether you actually want another legal job or whether you’re looking for one because that feels like what you’re supposed to do next. If you felt an immense amount of relief when you were laid off, that feeling is information. You may not have realized how much pressure and stress your job was creating until suddenly that weight was lifted.In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah Cottrell talks about why being laid off can be a helpful catalyst for thinking about what you actually want to do next. She shares what she has seen with clients who didn’t recognize how unhappy they were until they were laid off, why another legal job can make sense as a bridge job, and why it’s worth listening if your reaction to losing your job was, “Thank goodness.”2:09 - Clients who didn’t realize how unhappy they were until they were laid off2:53 - Asking yourself whether you actually want another legal job3:18 - The practical reasons you might choose another job practicing law4:04 - Feeling relief after a layoff is information5:17 - Using another legal job as a bridge job instead of trying to prove something7:09 - Listening to what your reaction to being laid off is telling youMentioned In Do You Actually Want Another Legal Job After a Layoff?First Steps to Leaving the Law1:1 Coaching with Sarah Cottrell

Staying in a toxic law firm because you want to help change it can feel like a good reason to stay. You want to get to a position where you have more influence and can use that influence to make the environment better. The question is what staying long enough to get there is costing you along the way.The harder part is that toxic environments can change your sense of what is normal or acceptable. You can start out very clear about what feels wrong and, over time, become more comfortable with things you previously would not have accepted. If the goal is to eventually use your influence to create change, you also have to be realistic about the difference between playing the game to get there and becoming part of the machine.In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah Cottrell talks about the cost of staying in a toxic law firm because you want to change it from the inside. She explains why toxic environments can change your sense of what is and is not okay, why gaining influence can make it harder to use that influence the way you originally intended, and why it is important to keep reassessing what staying is doing to you.0:30 - Staying in a toxic law firm because you want to change it1:45 - Lawyers think about the cost of leaving, not the cost of staying2:15 - Staying to fix the environment can change you3:08 - Playing the game to make change versus becoming part of the machine4:21 - What happens when you finally have the influence you were waiting for5:23 - Your conscience can be formed by your environment6:18 - Being clear about who you are and what you are willing to do7:50 - When the effect staying is having on you is a reason to reassessMentioned In The Cost of Staying in a Toxic Law FirmFirst Steps to Leaving the Law1:1 Coaching with Sarah Cottrell

When leaving law feels like letting other people down, it can become much harder to take your own unhappiness seriously. For lawyers who are women, first-gen, people of color, or part of another historically underrepresented group, there can be a very real sense that being in these spaces is not just about them. Their achievement can start to feel tied to representing other people well and showing what is possible.The difficult part is that this sense of responsibility can mean having to get to a very bad place before being willing to prioritize yourself. Sarah sees lawyers whose experience at a law firm has been extremely detrimental to their mental, physical, emotional, and relational health, who still discount all of that and focus on the reasons they feel like they should stay. For people who are highly responsible, it can be very hard to value their own pain and suffering when they also feel responsible for what their leaving might mean for other people.In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah Cottrell talks about her own experience of feeling like leaving her law firm meant letting other women down and why she sees versions of that same dynamic with her clients. She talks about the sense that your existence and achievement in these spaces are not just about you, how that can keep people going even when the experience is doing real harm, and why your own well-being deserves to matter too.0:29 - The pressure to stay when leaving feels like letting other people down1:05 - Feeling responsible to advance for other women in Biglaw3:00 - When your existence in the space feels like it’s not just about you4:11 - Having to get to a very bad place before prioritizing yourself5:17 - Highly responsible lawyers struggling to value their own pain and suffering6:05 - You matter, your well-being matters, and you’re not letting people down7:25 - Being unselfish to the point of doing harm to yourself to help others8:16 - The permission slip to take care of yourselfMentioned In When Leaving Law Feels Like Letting Other People DownFirst Steps to Leaving the Law1:1 Coaching with Sarah Cottrell

Your law job may feel more unsustainable than it used to, even if you were managing it fairly well before. Maybe you already knew the environment was not great, or that the work itself was never especially sustainable, but you were making it work. Now, all of a sudden, it feels completely impossible and you are wondering what changed.For a lot of lawyers, the instinct is to turn that question inward. Is it because you are weak? Is it because you cannot hack it anymore? Sarah talks about why being impacted by what is happening around you does not mean there is something wrong with you. If your nervous system is constantly being primed for threats and hypervigilance has become the baseline, it makes sense that you do not have the same capacity you had before.In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah Cottrell talks about why your law job may feel more unsustainable than it used to and what may actually be behind that shift. She explains how the broader environment can affect your nervous system, why lawyers in particular may be feeling that impact, and why listening to what your body and your nervous system are telling you can help you figure out what the best next step is for you career-wise.0:53 - When a law job that felt manageable starts to feel unsustainable1:44 - Why lawyers may be especially affected by what is happening around them2:29 - Feeling like you can’t keep doing this doesn’t mean you’re weak4:12 - What your nervous system may be recognizing about your work environment6:00 - Hypervigilance as a baseline and how it affects your capacity7:10 - What to do when your work suddenly feels unsustainable8:31 - Listening to your body and nervous system as you consider what comes nextMentioned In Why Your Law Job Feels More Unsustainable Than It Used ToFirst Steps to Leaving the Law

“There’s a reason they call it a job.” “If it was fun, everyone would do it.” “The grass isn’t always greener.” Lawyers who hate their jobs hear some version of this all the time from people outside of the legal profession, usually when they are trying to explain just how miserable their work has become.There is a kernel of truth in the idea that every job involves some amount of work, frustration, and things you would rather not do. The problem is that every job does not suck in the way that being a lawyer can suck. For lawyers who have tied suffering to working hard or doing a good job, that distinction can be especially hard to see.In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah Cottrell talks about why “every job sucks” is bad advice for lawyers who hate their jobs, what can make legal work uniquely unpleasant, and why believing that suffering is simply part of having a job can make it harder to imagine something better.0:30 - Hearing “there’s a reason they call it a job” from people outside the law2:01 - The kinds of misery that can make legal work uniquely unpleasant3:02 - Why every job does not suck in the way being a lawyer can4:42 - When lawyers start believing work is supposed to involve suffering5:49 - Questioning whether worthwhile work can exist without mental and emotional suffering6:25 - Using therapy to unpack the belief that suffering is part of working hard7:46 - You do not have to suffer in your job8:23 - Exploring what might be a better fit despite what other people sayMentioned In Why “Every Job Sucks” Is Bad Advice for Lawyers Who Hate Their JobsFirst Steps to Leaving the Law