The Collective Growth Podcast: Inner Work

Most leaders are taught to manage conflict down. The healthier ones learn that the absence of conflict is usually the more expensive problem. In this Breakdown of our Inner Work conversation with Kellie Richter, Chief Operating Officer of First Command, MaryAnn Means-Dufrene and co-host Karen Finney unpack what changes when a leader stops trying to keep the peace and starts inviting the kind of spirited dialogue that actually produces good decisions. Kellie shared on the original episode the moment she got crossways with a colleague — and what she did next. Not to smooth it over. To name it, take ownership, apologize publicly inside her team, and model that holding yourself accountable doesn't expire when your title grows. MaryAnn and Karen dig into why teams of yes-people are quiet, expensive failures, the difference between false harmony and authentic alignment, and the yes-and mindset that lets a team disagree without dismantling momentum. They explore Kellie's framing of telling versus coaching — why a leader has to know what someone wants for themselves before any feedback will land — and her three Cs of leadership operations: clarity, consistency, and control. Underneath all of it: an authentic brand experience that doesn't change based on whether the audience is internal or external. If you've ever quietly suspected the calm on your team is masking something costly, this conversation will give you language for what's actually happening.   Here's a glimpse of what you'll learn: 00:14 Welcome and Setup  00:44 Authentic Brand Leadership  01:41 Discipline and Learning  02:59 Owning Conflict Moments  04:56 Healthy Conflict Culture  07:32 Yes People vs Yes And  09:28 Wicked Witch Interlude  12:22 Telling vs Coaching  17:45 Three Cs Framework  21:30 Purpose and Authenticity  23:26 Final Reflections and Wrap   About the Co-Host Karen Finney is a coach, longtime collaborator on Inner Work, and co-host of The Breakdown Series. She brings warmth, clinical clarity, and lived experience to conversations about how personal patterns shape professional life — and she's the co-host who will name what most leaders are too polite to say out loud. 🔗 Connect with Karen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karenfinney   If you'd like to listen to the original Inner Work conversation with Kellie Richter that this Breakdown unpacks: https://www.collectivegrowthleadership.com/blog/024   If you're an executive who can feel that something's off in the calm and want support building a team that disagrees well: 👉 https://collectivegrowthleadership.com/book-call   #leadershipdevelopment #innerwork #executiveteams #healthyconflict #leadershipcoaching

Most leaders are taught to keep parts of themselves out of the room. What they don't realize is that hiding the wound is what slowly drains the leader. In this Breakdown of our Inner Work conversation with Carol Klocek, CEO of Center for Transforming Lives, MaryAnn Means-Dufrene and co-host Karen Finn unpack what it actually means to lead from a self-concept you can see clearly — and what shame, silence, and the survival patterns we're praised for are quietly costing us. Carol shared on the original episode that she's a product of significant childhood trauma, and that early in her career a well-intentioned colleague told her not to talk about her family. The advice probably fit its time. The shame that grew around it did not. In this Breakdown, Karen and MaryAnn explore why healing isn't a leadership luxury, what trauma actually looks like inside a working environment — the missed deadline, the overreaction to feedback, the chronic overwork — and why the self-critic that drove you here may not be the voice you want driving what comes next. They get into managing your own gas tank, why sprints without recovery are how burnout gets built, and why curiosity is the single most underused leadership practice — the gateway, as Karen puts it, to empathy with others and with yourself. If you're a leader who's started to notice the same patterns showing up that you swore you'd outgrown, this conversation will give you language. Here's a glimpse of what you'll learn: 00:19 Welcome Dance Break  00:41 Luncheon Carol Ek Context 01:57 Workplace Shame Story 04:04 Owning Your Narrative 07:05 Healing as Leadership Skill 09:27 Awareness Resources and Crisis 11:55 Trauma in the Workplace 13:59 Triggers Nervous System Patterns 17:56 Trauma Informed Teams 19:57 Psychological Safety Vulnerability 20:56 Self Critic Discussion 21:22 Befriending Self Critic 23:25 Balancing Voices Within 24:27 High Care High Bar 24:54 Real Self Care Habits 26:50 Managing Your Gas Tank 27:26 Overwork Warning Signs 32:44 Sprints Need Recovery 33:41 Pedicures Versus Burnout 36:30 Curiosity Builds Empathy 37:51 Closing Reflections About the Co-Host Karen Finney is a coach, longtime collaborator on Inner Work, and co-host of The Breakdown Series. She brings warmth, clinical clarity, and lived experience to conversations about how personal patterns shape professional life — and she's the co-host who'll happily tell you when you've stopped managing your gas tank. 🔗 Connect with Karen:https://www.linkedin.com/in/karenfinney If you'd like to listen to the original Inner Work conversation with Carol Klocek that this Breakdown unpacks: https://www.collectivegrowthleadership.com/blog/025 If you're an executive who can feel the cost of pushing through and you're ready to lead from a clearer place: 👉 https://collectivegrowthleadership.com/book-call #leadershipdevelopment #innerwork #traumainformedleadership #executiveleadership #selfawareness

There’s a moment in every founder’s life when someone holds up a mirror they didn’t ask for. Sometimes it’s a coach. Sometimes it’s a spouse. Sometimes — the moment Dave Munson is most honest about — it’s an employee saying something you didn’t see coming. In Part 2 of our conversation with Dave Munson, founder and CEO of Saddleback Leather Co., MaryAnn Means-Dufrene continues the discussion that started in Episode 28 — but this half goes deeper into the unseen work of becoming the leader your business actually needs. Dave shares a 2010 lunch with Zig Ziglar that reframed everything (“court your spouse, encourage everyone, help others succeed”), the 2015 moment a Christian employee told him he was “one of the most prideful people I know,” and the research project that followed — fifty “signs of pride” lists categorized into twenty-four jars on his table. He talks about saying out loud to his wife that he was the problem in the business, the moment his teenage daughter refused to grab him a fizzy water and what it exposed, and the Rick Warren line that quietly reframed humility for him: humility is saying what’s true. He also talks about writing his award-winning book They’ll Fight Over It When You’re Dead (Audiobook of the Year 2025), the three and a half years he spent without a smartphone, and his refusal to use AI for creative work — a hand-written newsletter included. If you’ve ever quietly suspected that the business you built has been shaping you more than you’ve been shaping it, this conversation will land. Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 01:17 Meeting Zig Ziglar 02:45 Three Life Principles 03:57 Learning to Serve Family 06:26 Called Out for Pride 08:54 Redefining Pride 10:06 Signs of Pride List 14:59 Humility vs Pride 16:18 False Humility Explained 17:06 Saying What Is True 17:33 Humility Versus Pride 18:27 How Pride Shapes Business 19:56 Marriage Kids Business Growth 21:07 Book Story And Awards 22:27 Writing Process And Lessons 27:34 Enneagram And Storytelling 28:37 Going Smartphone Free 30:50 AI Boundaries Handwritten Newsletter 31:37 Closing Thanks And Book Reminder About the guest Dave Munson is the founder and CEO of Saddleback Leather Co., the global leather goods company known for heirloom-quality designs and a 100-year warranty. He is the author of They’ll Fight Over It When You’re Dead — winner of Audiobook of the Year 2025 — and has designed leather interiors for the Toyota Tundra and Sequoia. Through Africa New Life Ministries, he and his wife Suzette have brought more than 400 people to Rwanda to support sponsored children and local communities. Dave’s “signs of pride” research, posted on the Saddleback site, draws roughly 1,200 readers a day. 👉 Ready to stop leading from burnout? Book a call with MaryAnn: https://collectivegrowthleadership.com/book-call #leadershipdevelopment #innerwork #executiveteams #founderleadership #humility

Most leaders hit a moment when the business they built can’t keep growing through them alone. Not because the work changes. Because they have to. In this episode of Inner Work, MaryAnn Means-Dufrene sits down with Dave Munson, founder and CEO of Saddleback Leather Co., for an honest conversation about confidence, control, and what it actually takes to lead a company you’ve outgrown. Dave built Saddleback from a sketch he drew of “what kind of bag would Indiana Jones carry,” through years of sleeping on a $100-a-month apartment floor in Juárez, into a global leather goods brand with a 100-year warranty and a factory that now makes interiors for Toyota Tundras and Sequoias. Along the way, he had to face something most founders avoid: the moment outsourcing leadership stops working, and the founder has to step back in. He talks about the coach who quietly built his confidence by refusing to give him answers. The 70% rule that finally let him delegate. The two questions that reshaped how he leads — What do you think we should do? and By when? And the quiet, uncomfortable truth that most wisdom in leadership is built in the bad decisions, not the clean ones. If you’ve ever felt the gap between the leader you are and the leader your business now requires, this conversation will challenge how you think about confidence, delegation, and the long road to wisdom. Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 01:25 Welcome and Guest Intro 02:30 Origin of the First Bag 03:24 Scrappy Mexico Startup Years 04:18 Meeting Suzette and Building the Factory 05:49 Faith Driven Company Mission 07:17 Hiring Culture and Tolerance 10:51 Ministry Work in Africa 13:14 Naming Saddleback Leather 14:34 Painful Lessons and Inner Growth 17:21 Marriage Counseling as Leadership Training 18:14 Scaling Challenges and Delegation 19:18 Delegation vs Control 21:13 Clarity Is Not Micromanaging 22:29 Truthful Feedback Culture 24:18 Growth Mindset at Home 25:58 Strengths and Self Awareness 30:04 Coaching Confidence Through Questions 34:50 Delegating the Zone of Genius 37:16 Make Decisions Then Improve About the guest Dave Munson is the founder and CEO of Saddleback Leather Co., the global leather goods company known for heirloom-quality designs and a 100-year warranty. What started as a bag designed for a teaching job in Mexico became a category-defining brand built on durability, faith, and a “people company cleverly disguised as a leather bag business” mission. Dave is the author of They’ll Fight Over It When You’re Dead and has designed leather interiors for the Toyota Tundra and Sequoia. Through Africa New Life Ministries, he and his wife Suzette have brought more than 400 people to Rwanda to support sponsored children and local communities. 🔗 Connect with Dave: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dave-munson-736600141/ If you’re a founder or executive standing at the edge of what got you here and what’s needed next: 👉 https://collectivegrowthleadership.com/book-call

You can be talented, driven, and deeply capable — and still spend years choosing paths that are easier than the one you were meant for. This is the episode about what happens when you stop choosing comfort, and start trusting yourself to do the thing you actually love. In this episode of Inner Work, MaryAnn sits down with Emily McAnelly — VP of Strategic Growth at Collective Growth — for an honest, warm, and surprisingly funny conversation about identity, deserving, and what it really means to build something that matters. Together, they explore: Why we resist doing what we love most (and call it "not deserving it") What changes when you flip the script and build toward freedom instead of safety The loneliness of leadership — and why having the right person in your corner changes everything How old narratives quietly define you until you decide they don't anymore And what it looks like to find discipline that actually feels like purpose    This isn't a polished success story. It's a real conversation between two women building something from scratch — with a puppy barking in the background and everything.   Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 00:41 Do What You Love  01:42 Making Joy a Career  04:59 Freedom and Ambition  07:41 Yin Yang Partnership  09:24 Mission of Collective Growth  11:02 From Founder Led Selling  12:48 Loneliness of Leadership  19:11 Stoic Mindset Shifts  21:49 Rapid Fire and Discipline  27:54 Closing Thanks and Next Steps   About the Guest:  Emily McAnelly is the VP of Strategic Growth at Collective Growth, where she leads business development and go-to-market strategy. With experience across AI startups, Fortune 100 partnerships, and financial systems, she builds scalable, transformational growth engines. She lives in Richmond, Virginia with her family and brings both strategic rigor and irreplaceable human warmth to everything she touches. 🔗 Connect with Emily: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emily-mcanelly-99442233/ If you've ever wondered whether you actually deserve the thing you most want to do — this one's for you. 👉 Book a 1:1 call with MaryAnn: https://collectivegrowthleadership.com/book-call

You can be high-performing, and still feel completely unprepared for what leadership demands next.This is the side of leadership development no one prepares you for. In this episode of Inner Work, MaryAnn sits down with Emily McAnelly, for a raw conversation about what it really takes to step into leadership when the stakes are real. Emily didn’t just change roles, she chose to walk away from the “path of least resistance” and into a version of herself that required discipline, ownership, and facing the fear of failure head-on. Together, they unpack: What it feels like to build something that actually matters The pressure of stepping into leadership before you feel ready How faith and failure reshape your definition of success And why scaling a business is really about scaling who you are This isn’t a conversation about tactics. It’s about identity, pressure, and the inner work required to lead at the next level.   Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 00:40 Welcome and Introduction 02:10 Blending Two Podcasts 03:46 Why Emily Joined 08:13 Scaling and Partnership 11:34 Working With Family 12:55 Fear of Failure 20:07 Discipline and 10x Habits 23:10 Sales Engine and Faith 29:09 Ed Story and Wrap Up About the Guest: Emily McAnelly is the Vice President of Strategic Growth at Collective Growth, where she leads business development and go-to-market strategy. With experience across AI startups, Fortune 100 partnerships, and financial systems, she builds scalable, transformational growth engines. She lives in Richmond, Virginia with her family and brings both strategic rigor and human insight to leadership. 🔗 Connect with Emily: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emily-mcanelly-99442233/  If you’ve ever felt the tension between who you are and who leadership requires you to become, this episode is for you. 👉 Book a 1:1 call: https://collectivegrowthleadership.com/book-call

Most leaders are trained to manage strategy, performance, and results.Very few are taught how unresolved trauma quietly shapes the way they lead. In this episode of Inner Work, MaryAnn Means-Dufrene sits down with Carol Klocek, CEO of the Center for Transforming Lives, for an honest conversation about the deeper side of leadership development, the inner work that shapes how leaders show up for their teams, families, and communities. Carol brings more than 35 years of leadership experience in the social sector, along with her own lived experience growing up in poverty and trauma. That perspective has shaped her commitment to trauma-informed leadership, psychological safety, and building systems that create long-term transformation for women and children. This conversation explores the hidden realities many leaders carry: shame, burnout, survival patterns, and the internal voices formed early in life. Carol shares how working with a trauma-informed executive coach helped her shift from relentless performance to sustainable leadership grounded in self-awareness and resilience. She also reflects on a defining moment during COVID when her organization was losing $50,000 per week, and how choosing to prioritize people over productivity became a turning point in her leadership. If you’re a founder, executive, or team leader navigating growth, pressure, and responsibility, this conversation will challenge how you think about leadership development and the personal work that sustains it.   Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 00:42 Introduction to Carol Klocek and the Center for Transforming Lives 02:42 Trauma-informed leadership and psychological safety 04:42 How childhood trauma shapes the brain and behavior 11:12 Personal healing as a leadership prerequisite 13:12 A career-defining moment: hiding her story early on 15:42 Learning to share lived experience with courage 18:12 Trauma-informed executive coaching and transformation 19:12 Why self-care is essential for sustainable leadership 21:42 Reframing negative self-talk and burnout patterns 23:42 Parenting, discipline, and raising resilient children 27:42 A reluctant healing journey and health wake-up call 32:42 Leading through crisis during COVID 33:42 The turning point: putting people first as a leader 35:42 Recognizing unexamined trauma in leadership 38:42 Books, values, and daily practices for inner work    About the Guest: Carol Klocek is the Chief Executive Officer of the Center for Transforming Lives. Having experienced poverty and trauma herself as a child, Carol brings both lived experience and more than 35 years of leadership in the social sector to her work. Under her leadership, the organization applies a two-generation approach, partnering with women and children to disrupt cycles of poverty through housing, counseling, early childhood education, and economic mobility services.   🔗 Connect with Carol: linkedin.com/in/carol-hunter-klocek-2126584 🔗If you’re navigating your own leadership evolution and want support in that journey:  https://collectivegrowthleadership.com/book-call

High-performing leaders spend years mastering achievement; hitting targets, earning promotions, and pushing through pressure. But eventually many reach a moment where the strategy that built their success stops sustaining them. In this episode of Inner Work, MaryAnn Means-Dufrene sits down with Kellie Richter, Chief Operating Officer of First Command, to explore the deeper leadership development that happens after success, when leaders must shift from achievement-driven performance to mission-driven impact. Kellie shares how her career evolved from Chief Marketing Officer to Chief Operating Officer, and what that transition taught her about authentic leadership, operational responsibility, and the role leaders play in shaping real client experiences, not just brand promises. From redefining work-life balance to building trust through clarity and consistency, Kellie explains why sustainable leadership requires moving beyond telling people what to do and instead coaching others to grow, contribute, and lead themselves. You’ll also hear how First Command’s mission of serving military families shapes its culture, and why leaders who anchor their work in purpose create stronger teams, deeper trust, and more meaningful impact. This conversation is a powerful look at the inner work required to lead with authenticity, accountability, and purpose.   Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 00:38 Introduction to Kellie Richter and her leadership journey 02:38 The shift from CMO to COO and translating strategy into operations 04:38 Why brand, experience, and operations are inseparable 06:38 Moving from achievement-driven leadership to mission-driven work 09:38 The myth of work-life balance and the “pie chart” perspective 12:38 The leadership shift from telling to coaching 15:38 Mission impact and serving military families 17:38 The Three Cs of leadership: clarity, consistency, and control 20:38 When leaders break trust—and how to rebuild it 23:38 Modeling accountability inside executive teams 25:38 Why listening deeply builds trust across organizations 28:38 Helping people feel respected, seen, and understood 31:38 The deeper purpose behind serving those who serve About the Guest: Kellie Richter is the Chief Operating Officer of First Command, where she leads technology, experience design, digital solutions, data, service, and operations. Her role focuses on translating strategy into real results that deliver value to clients—primarily military families—and the workforce that serves them. Kellie joined First Command in 2016 as Chief Marketing Officer and brings more than 25 years of leadership experience in financial services, brand strategy, and client experience. Her leadership philosophy centers on mission clarity, authentic accountability, and building systems that serve both people and purpose. 🔗 Connect with Kellie: linkedin.com/in/kellierichter    Want to explore your own leadership transformation? Book a 1:1 conversation with MaryAnn: 👉 https://collectivegrowthleadership.com/book-call  

Leadership development isn’t forged in comfort;  it’s shaped in crisis, transition, and the quiet moments of self-reflection that redefine who we are as leaders. In this episode of Inner Work, MaryAnn Means-Dufrene sits down with TD Smyers, CEO of BoardBuild and retired Navy Captain, for a deeply grounded conversation about governance, growth, and the evolution of identity across seasons of leadership. After more than 30 years leading in the military, nonprofit, and private sectors, including commanding a Navy air station and guiding major organizational turnarounds, TD found himself confronting a structural problem in nonprofit governance: board recruitment rooted in familiarity rather than intentional diversity. That frustration became the catalyst for BoardBuild, a platform designed to strengthen nonprofit boards nationwide. But this conversation moves far beyond governance strategy. TD reflects on the tension between passion and patience, the challenge of leading decentralized teams, and the humility required to say, “I could have done that differently.” He shares lessons learned from rebuilding culture after crisis, transitioning from military authority to nonprofit influence, and stepping away for three years at sea, an experience that reshaped his perspective on urgency, control, and what truly matters. This episode is about authenticity. About choosing growth over ego. About aligning leadership with mission… and aligning identity with purpose.   Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 00:20 Passion, Conviction & the Drive to Share 02:20 The Board Diversity Problem & “The Pool” Limitation 04:20 Launching BoardBuild: From Vision to Executable Model 08:20 Scaling Governance Across 10 States 12:50 Why Giving It Away Was Harder Than Selling It 16:50 Leading a Decentralized Team 20:07 Energy, Pace & Feeling Triggered When Slowed Down 22:20 From Military Structure to Nonprofit Entrepreneurship 27:20 Crisis Leadership & Cultural Rebuilds 33:20 The Sailing Journey: Adventure, Identity & Perspective 42:20 Book Recommendations, Authentic Leadership & Daily Practice    If you’re building stronger executive teams or navigating your own leadership evolution, this conversation offers both strategic clarity and personal depth.   🔗 Connect with TD: linkedin.com/in/tdsmyers    👉 Book a 1:1 leadership conversation with MaryAnn:  https://collectivegrowthleadership.com/book-call  

What happens when a high-performing entrepreneur hits a wall he can’t outwork? Justin Mink helped scale companies to billion-dollar valuations, until chronic illness forced him to stop everything. In this episode of Inner Work, Justin shares the hidden reckoning behind his public success: the burnout he ignored, the pain he endured, and the radical mindset shift that transformed how he leads today. Host MaryAnn Means-Dufrene guides this honest, revealing conversation about what it really takes to evolve; not just as a leader, but as a human being. If you've ever asked, “Is this all there is?”, this is the episode you’ve been waiting for.   Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 00:24 Welcome and Introduction 01:51 Defining Leadership Today 03:38 The Shift: From Striving to Thriving 06:31 Personal Struggles and Transformation 07:20 The Role of Suffering in Growth 10:34 Integrating Personal and Professional Growth 23:44 The Power of Systems and Creativity 25:57 The Journey of Self-Development 28:50 Embracing Chronic Pain 31:40 Parenting and Positivity 34:05 The Philosophy of Acceptance 36:47 Building a Sustainable Business 43:29 Personal Growth and Practices   About the guest Justin Mink is a seasoned entrepreneur and leadership advisor who has spent over two decades building and scaling high-growth companies; from zero to 1,000+ employees. After chronic illness brought his world to a halt in 2016, Justin redefined his path. Now, as a Certified EOS Implementer and Certified Outgrow Advisor, he guides leaders toward sustainable, human-centered growth, inside and out. 🔗 Connect with Justin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justinmink/  🔗   Want to talk through your own leadership shift? Book a 1:1 with MaryAnn: https://collectivegrowthleadership.com/book-call