Playful Nature Podcast by WildStrong

Join us for walk along the coast of Fife...‘Something isn’t better than nothing.’ This was the argument in a (possibly pointed) LinkedIn post that got us talking. The example was older adults playing with foam swords - the suggestion being that we should be getting them to do progressive strength training instead.Which got us wondering - what do we imagine those people would be doing if they weren’t out there playing? Would they be in the gym? Would they be doing the programme that’s supposed to be better for them?The best programme in the world is useless if you never do it. And there are all sorts of reasons you might never do it. Maybe it hurts, maybe it doesn’t fit into your day, maybe you’ve heard so much about moving ‘correctly’ that you’ve stopped trusting yourself to have a go. In this episode, we talk about what happens when you take a step back and ask what you want to be able to do? Then give yourself a bit of room to find a way there that works for you.We won’t all end up in a gym. But we might start opening the jars we used to hand to somebody else, carry the kayak in a way we’d always assumed we couldn’t, or say yes to something we’d usually sit out. It's these that tell us if the movement we’re doing is making a difference to the lives we actually lead and the meaningful activities that we want to keep doing for as long as possible.So yes, something is better than nothing and to suggest otherwise is to miss the wood for the trees.Mentioned in the episodeOur video on alternatives to loaded carries

****Join Katie on Oct 14th for a webinar with us on ⁠"What's stopping you from doing the thing?" Sign up here.⁠Katie Paterson runs Katie Does Comms and is the founder of The Outsiders, an Edinburgh community for freelancers and people who work on their own.We talk about Katie’s route into communications and why she thinks good comms has much more to do with human connection than finding people’s “pain points”. From there, we get into The Outsiders: how it started, why people sometimes need permission to leave their desks and spend time outside, and what Katie calls “gentle ambition”.Later we talk about walking as part of the thinking process rather than something we do when the work is finished; the pressure to optimise and measure everything; what happens when a community grows beyond its founder; and why admitting you don’t know what you’re doing can sometimes make collaboration easier.03:19 – Katie’s background, adventure and a 22,000 km bike trip10:16 – Communications, marketing and human connection13:52 – Pain-point marketing and Andrew’s experience in the fitness industry16:35 – Helping people see a positive version of the future23:46 – The beginnings of The Outsiders33:56 – How the community has grown36:42 – Permission to spend time outdoors, fun and “gentle ambition”42:05 – Outdoor Office Day and using walking as a way to think46:25 – Movement, cognition, affordances and AI as an environment51:05 – Growth at all costs, KPIs and trying to measure things in isolation56:38 – What happens when a community becomes bigger than its founder1:03:18 – Collaboration, not knowing the answers and letting other people contribute1:06:31 – Starting with the smallest possible version of an ideaKatie PatersonKatiedoescomms.co.ukKatie on LinkedInThe Outsiderstheoutsiders.org.ukOutdoor Office Day / Nature Desksnaturedesks.com/outdoor-office-dayCharles Darwin’s SandwalkDarwin walked the Sandwalk at Down House every day. It became known as his “thinking path”.Down House and the Sandwalk – English Heritage“Your AI Is Not a Tool” – L. M. SacasasThis is the piece Andrew mentions when talking about the idea that AI might be better understood as an environment rather than simply a tool.The Convivial Society: Your AI Is Not a Tool

Health technologies can measure our steps, sleep, heart rate, food and exercise. But what happens when those measurements begin to feel more authoritative than our own experience?Dr Rachael Kent is a Senior Lecturer in Digital Economy and Society at King’s College London, Co-Director of the Centre for Technology and the Body, and author of The Digital Health Self: Wellness, Tracking and Social Media.Rachael tells Andrew about the experience that led to her research: becoming critically ill after under-fuelling and over-exercising while following separate juicing and running apps. When she eventually turned her phone back on in hospital, her running app reminded her that it was time to go for a run.Their conversation moves from fitness trackers and the quantified self to the moralisation of health, social media’s growing role as an informal public-health platform, AI health advice, loneliness and the disappearance of affordable shared spaces.They also discuss conspirituality, the politics of online wellness, the appeal of certainty, and an optimisation culture in which there is always another number to improve, product to buy or part of ourselves to fix.Finally, they consider where responsibility should sit, what legal and collective action might achieve, and how we can protect our attention without turning resistance into another self-improvement project.Rachael’s work and the Kent v Apple collective actionHer personal experience of over-exercising and under-fuelling while following health appsThe origins and ideology of the quantified-self movementWhen measurements become more authoritative than bodily experienceGuilt, self-worth and performing health onlineWhy optimisation has no natural endpointIndividual responsibility versus structural influences on healthSocial media as an unregulated, informal public-health platformWhy people turn online when conventional healthcare is inaccessible or has failed themAI as a useful tool, personal adviser and apparent companionPersonalised algorithms and different versions of realityLoneliness, lost third spaces and the environments pushing people onlineConspirituality, distrust and the rage-bait economyWellness culture, young men, looksmaxxing and the marketisation of identityLegal accountability, technological boundaries and reclaiming attentionMore about Rachael:The Digital Health Self: Wellness, Tracking and Social Media. Use the discount code CNF26 when ordering through Bristol University Press.Rachael Kent at King’s College LondonCentre for Technology and the BodyDr Digital HealthOfficial Kent v Apple case recordArticles and books mentioned“I hate my £349-a-year Whoop tracker. It’s a hypochondriac”, The TimesConspirituality: How New Age Conspiracy Theories Became a Health Threat by Derek Beres, Matthew Remski and Julian WalkerFrom Counterculture to Cyberculture by Fred TurnerDoppelganger: A Trip into the Mirror World by Naomi Klein

Lydia Durkin George is a physiotherapist, researcher and former international kickboxer. She represented Great Britain for more than a decade and has since worked across the NHS, private practice and elite sport. She is also the founder of Form.at.Physio, an online physiotherapy practice supporting people across the UK.We wanted to have this conversation because pelvic health comes up regularly among women taking part in Strong for Life. People often assume that leaking, prolapse or other pelvic-floor symptoms mean strength training, running and higher-impact movement are no longer available to them.It is also personal for Gill. After having children, she stopped running partly because of leaking and gradually accepted that this was simply how things were now. Years later, working with a pelvic-health physiotherapist showed her that change was possible. The process - finding a starting point, gradually building capacity and working towards something meaningful - had much more in common with ordinary strength and movement training than she had realised.Gill and Lydia discuss what the pelvic floor is and what it does; symptoms that aren’t always recognised as pelvic-health issues; the difference between a weak and a non-relaxing pelvic floor; and what effective rehabilitation can involve. They also talk about the effect these symptoms can have on confidence, independence and everyday life, and how people can work towards returning to running, lifting and the activities that matter to them.This conversation provides general information and is not a substitute for an individual assessment or medical advice. If you are concerned about pelvic-health symptoms, speak to your GP or a suitably qualified pelvic-health physiotherapist.LinksLydia Durkin George and Form.at.Physio About LydiaBook an online physiotherapy appointmentFind a pelvic-health physiotherapistPOGP physiotherapist directoryPelvic-floor muscle exercise supportSqueezy appMusic by Me for Queen

How do you actually keep going?Last week we ran our webinar “What can you do in 20 minutes?” We covered what the research tells us about strength and impact for bone density, what an effective strength programme might actually look like, three movements we’d choose as a starting point, and how to add or take away challenge depending on where you are.Beforehand, we’d sent out a questionnaire asking what gets in the way. And well over half the answers came back to the same thing: consistency. How on earth do you keep going when life throws in its usual selection of spanners?We touched on it in the webinar, but there was much more we wanted to say. So this week’s podcast is the more detail.Andrew and I are VERY different when it comes to exercise. He can happily exercise by himself. I can’t. I need other people, whether that’s in person or online. I need people to show up with, talk to, hear their stories and generally make the whole thing part of something bigger than me and my good intentions.We talk about why short-term goals can be much more useful than the idea of training for “future you.” Training for your health in 20 years is absolutely valid, but it doesn't necessarily get you out of bed this morning. Something a few months away that feels exciting and just slightly out of reach might.We also look at the friction between fitness messaging, which so often puts everything on the individual, and what behaviour-change research tells us about how much our environment and social context influence what we actually do.And we look at a few models you can use to work out what's standing in your way, and what you might change to make exercise an easier choice rather than something you constantly have to make yourself do.Because motivation will only get any of us so far.How can you make it NEAR (Normal, Easy, Attractive, Routine)?Hope it’s helpful. You also get to meet Sarah the Cockerel, who makes himself known in the background.Here's the link to the webinar we ran.Seligman’s PERMA+ Model Explained: A Theory of WellbeingThe home of the COM-B ModelNEAR Framework

At what age does playing outside start to feel embarrassing? Beth Kelley is a play researcher and anthropologist whose early research explored parkour as a form of free-form adult play. She has spent nearly 20 years thinking about how and why we play - and what happens when the environments and cultures around us make play increasingly difficult.We talk about risky play and parenting, why teenagers and adults can feel conspicuous playing in public, and how different cultures have created spaces where adult play is normal. Beth also tells the story of a video of herself playing on some bike racks that went viral - and why the reaction wasn't really about whether she was good or bad at it, but whether an adult should be doing it at all.That leads us into the fear of looking "cringe", why social media gives us endless examples of experts and spectacular failures but surprisingly little ordinary participation, and Beth's idea that play is a process rather than a performance.Towards the end, we talk about technology, community, why Beth chose to leave the tech industry, and the small acts of "rogue play" that can make our neighbourhoods feel like places we're allowed to play again.Conversation outline02:23 — Beth’s background, anthropology and studying adult play through parkour09:51 — What is play? Choice, motivation, enjoyment and flow12:29 — Video games, gamification and the quantified self18:42 — Risky play, parenting and the pressure to keep children safe22:08 — Playgrounds, neighbourhoods and the built environment26:23 — When do teenagers and adults lose permission to play?29:10 — Adult play in other cultures and throughout history32:03 — Strength in numbers: making adult play socially acceptable36:51 — Why you can’t simply tell adults to “go and play”40:51 — When play becomes another thing to optimise and perform43:39 — Beth’s viral bike-rack video and the reaction to it46:28 — Experts, failures and the missing middle online47:58 — Fear of “cringe”, being messy and getting things wrong49:33 — Surveillance, smart glasses and what happens when we’re always observable53:07 — Remote work, physical presence and everyday social contact57:11 — Third spaces, weak ties and the small interactions we’ve lost1:01:11 — AI, technology and the loss of human interaction1:05:11 — Why Beth decided to leave the tech industry1:07:53 — Analogue life, community and opting out of optimisation1:13:02 — Building physical spaces for play and community1:14:57 — “Rogue play”: small ways to invite play into our neighbourhoodsBeth's writing: https://substack.com/@bethkelleyBeth on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mbethkelley/Beth's website: https://bethkelleyportfolio.com/Beth's research, Moving Like a Kid Again: An Analysis of Parkour as Free-Form Adult Play: https://cedar.wwu.edu/wwuet/165

Dr Katie Fitton Davies joins Andrew Telfer to explore how nonlinear pedagogy and gamification can make movement more meaningful for children and adults.Katie explains how coaches, teachers and parents can create playful environments that encourage people to experiment, adapt and discover their own movement solutions - instead of prescribing a single “correct” technique.Together they explore:The principles of nonlinear pedagogyRepresentative learning design and perception-action couplingUsing constraints to encourage exploration and adaptabilityThe STEP framework: space, time, equipment and peopleUsing questions and analogies to create an external focusGamification beyond points and badgesIntrinsic motivation, autonomy and lifelong physical activityCreating psychologically safe environments for movementKatie also shares a space-themed, parent-led intervention in which children completed movement missions and earned stars. The programme improved both stability and cognitive skills.When people have opportunities to play, explore and solve problems, they can build confidence, physical literacy and a lasting relationship with movement.Dr Katie Fitton Davies is a Senior Lecturer in Physical Education and Movement Sciences at Liverpool John Moores University. Her research explores physical education, nonlinear pedagogy, motivation, motor competence and physical activity, with a particular focus on creating meaningful movement experiences for children. Before joining LJMU, Katie worked as a Research Fellow at Coventry University, developing school-based physical activity and exercise interventions.

How can we get non-movers moving?Is marketing in the fitness industry counterproductive?How can we expand people’s capabilities in a way that doesn’t feel like too much work?Dan grew up in a small town in Canada and fell in love with movement from a young age, playing every sport he could at school. He later earned a masters in Education, discovered entrepreneurship and fitness, and went on to found the company Seven Movements, the company that pioneered movement snacking and delivering accessible exercise programming to individuals facing barriers to traditional fitness routines.When Dan wanted to help his grandma to feel better and stronger, but realised the gym would be too intimidating for her, he started giving her small, one-minute movement sessions to prepare her for workouts. The aim was to avoid overwhelming her and help her step outside of her “movement bubble.” This is where the idea of “movement snacking” came into play.Andrew and Dan discuss the importance of giving the right dose of exercise at the right time and taking the individual into consideration, rather than focusing on the content that creates attention.How often there is too much focus on optimality, while ignoring the fact that something is always better than nothing.How Movement snacking is a tool that helps people successfully participate in forms of exercise they may previously have felt unable to do.If you’d like to learn more about Dan Tattons work, follow him on LinkedInVisit the Seven movements website.Music from Me for Queen

Movement is about far more than muscles, mobility or exercise programmes. At its best, it helps people build confidence, connection and a greater sense of belonging.In this returning conversation, Andrew sits down once again with Erin Eleu, founder of Agents of Movement, to explore how her thinking has evolved over the past 18 months. Together they discuss why movement leaders should think beyond sets and reps, why community may be one of our most powerful health interventions, and why the way we deliver movement experiences often matters just as much as the activities themselves.They also explore why traditional "fall prevention" messaging often misses the mark, and how reframing the conversation around confidence, capability and resilience could encourage far more people to stay active throughout later life.Why movement is a vehicle for connection, not just exerciseThe difference between what we teach and how we teach itBuilding communities that people genuinely want to return toThe role of language in shaping confidence and self-beliefWhy "suitable for all levels" is rarely helpfulThe concept of social frailty and how isolation affects physical capabilityMoving beyond fear-based approaches to fall preventionWhy learning to fall should be considered a lifelong movement skillThe importance of playful movement throughout adulthoodHelping people become more adaptable, confident moversWhy older adults should be viewed as creators and leaders, not just consumersCreating movement experiences that foster belonging, curiosity and joyIf you'd like to learn more about Erin's work, visit Agents of Movement and explore her podcast, webinars and learning community.Enjoyed this conversation?We also recommend Erin's previous appearance on the Playful Nature Podcast (See Episode 7), where we explored play, movement, ageing and creating richer movement experiences. Together, the two conversations provide a fascinating look at how Erin's thinking has developed over the past 18 months.Music from Me For Queen.

It's one of the questions we're asked most often, especially around our strength courses. Will I lose weight? Will I tone up? Will this change my body?In this episode, Andrew and I go for a walk and talk through the many reasons why we deliberately avoid making those promises.We talk about growing up in the 90s and the era of Heat magazine, celebrity "circle of shame" features and the diet culture, before exploring how today's fitness industry continues to market health through insecurity, before-and-after photos and unrealistic body ideals.Drawing on Andrew's experience working in commercial gyms and then moving into public health, we discuss the difference between pain-point marketing and what the evidence tells us about lasting behaviour change. We ramble around a few bit and touch on bodybuilding, social media, steroids, GLP-1 drugs, optimisation culture, AI-generated fitness content.Rather than asking "How can I change my body?", perhaps a better question is:"What do I want my body to help me do?"In this episodeWhy WildStrong doesn't use before-and-after photosGrowing up with 1990s diet culture and celebrity magazinesHow commercial gyms are taught to market through people's insecuritiesPain points versus opportunity: what behaviour change research actually saysThe illusion of control in modern fitness cultureOrthorexia, optimisation and the "spreadsheetification" of healthWhy today's physique standards are so different from previous generationsSteroids, bodybuilding and changing expectationsHugh Jackman, Hollywood and social media physiquesGLP-1 drugs, AI influencers and the future of body imageWhat people really mean when they ask if a programme will "tone" themWhy capability may be a more meaningful goal than aestheticsMentioned in this episodeHeat magazine's "Circle of Shame"Kate Winslet and media coverage following TitanicJoe WicksEugene SandowMr Universe and Mr OlympiaHugh JackmanGLP-1 medications (including Ozempic)OrthorexiaCOM-B behaviour change modelSocial determinants of healthKill All Normies by Angela NagleIf you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you subscribed, left a review or shared it with someone who might find it useful.Thank you!