Dancing With Wisdom

In our fourth conversation with Ken Wright, former Chief Operating Officer of Royal Mail, we explore what happens when a high-powered career ends—and why what comes next might matter more.In previous episodes, Ken shared his spiritual journey from Liverpool, the leadership principles that shaped his rise to one of the UK's most senior roles, and how he navigated one of the nation's most testing crises. Now, in this episode, he opens up about the decision to leave Royal Mail in 2001 and the unexpected paths God had waiting.Ken takes us into a season of reinvention: stepping back from the intensity of corporate life to pursue consulting work part-time, and being "grabbed with both hands" to serve on the leadership team of British Youth for Christ—a calling rooted in something he'd seen back in 1972 in the Upper Room, when teenagers encountered Jesus and were transformed. He also shares how a chance encounter with a fellow Everton supporter—a young theologian named Paul Blackham—led to the founding of Biblical Frameworks, a charity now documenting all 66 books of the Bible through accessible video study guides.But woven throughout is something deeper: a meditation on legacy, stewardship, and what it means to finish well. Ken reflects on "geriatric hedonism"—the cultural pull toward retirement as permanent holiday—and argues for something far more radical: that every season of life, right to the end, is an invitation to learn, serve, and grow. He talks about failure and how shame at eleven years old became fuel for a lifetime. He names his mentors and why truth-telling friendship matters more in your mid-70s than it did at thirty. And he offers a vision of adopted grandchildren, open homes, and the mysterious continuity between this life and the next.For anyone wondering what comes after achievement, or how to stay alive in your own life as you age, this conversation is an invitation to something most of culture doesn't dare to imagine.#legacy #faith #endingwell

In our third conversation with Ken Wright, former Chief Operating Officer of Royal Mail, we turn to something none of us can avoid: conflict.In previous episodes, Ken shared how God took him from a teenage conversion and the "upper room" of 1972 to one of the most senior leadership roles in the UK. In this episode, he takes us inside the 1996 national postal strike — a dispute that stopped the nation's post but not the mail piling up behind it, with businesses, hospital letters, and cheques caught in the backlog, and the media, politicians, unions, staff and board all watching. Ken describes it as being in a bunker in a war zone: 24/7, with communication as the only real weapon.But this conversation reaches far beyond Royal Mail. Ken argues that conflict itself is not the problem — the failure to resolve it is. He explains why so many Christians bury their heads in the sand, why big churches quietly avoid each other while small churches lose people out the back door, and why Jesus in Matthew 5 leaves no room for a trail of unresolved conflict.Along the way, Ken unpacks the ACAS arbitration that changed his view of mediation, the 24 hours he spent briefing 500 staff face to face rather than letting a message filter down, the discipline case where he dismissed a young man and then helped him find his next job, and the danger of dressing up a personality clash as a theological issue.Underneath it all is grace and truth — in that order. As Ken puts it, we usually get it backwards: a soft mind and a hard heart, when what we need is a hard mind and a soft heart. And the reason he keeps returning to grace is simple — he knows how much he himself has been forgiven.Whether you're leading an organisation, serving in a church, or navigating a fracture in your own family, this conversation offers hard-won wisdom on facing conflict rather than fleeing it. Blessed are the peacemakers.#RoyalMail#Prayer

In our second conversation with Ken Wright, former Chief Operating Officer of Royal Mail, we explore the timeless leadership principles that shaped both his remarkable career and his walk with Christ. In our first conversation, Ken shared how God led him from a teenage conversion to one of the most senior leadership roles in the UK, with responsiblity for 130,000 employees and a £5 billion budget. In this episode, Ken reflects on the lessons he learned along the way—from leading through change and crisis to developing people, making difficult decisions, and discovering why "the greatest leaders are servants first".Drawing on memorable stories from his years at Royal Mail, Ken explains why "people support what they help create," why leaders must communicate the "why" behind every decision, and why "facts are your friends—but intuition still has its place". He also shares memorable stories about an executive parking space that became an award for the "Employee of the Month", the postcard that kept hostage Terry Waite alive, and the difficult decision to dismiss an employee while still offering him hope for a better future.Inspired by the words of Jesus and Martin Luther King Jr., this conversation challenges the world's view of leadership. As Ken reminds us, "Everybody can be great because anybody can serve."Whether you lead a business, a church, a charity, a team, or simply want to have a greater influence on those around you, this conversation is full of practical wisdom, profound insights, and leadership lessons forged over a lifetime.

In this episode I sit down with Ken Wright for a warm, story-filled conversation about faith, leadership, and a career that took him from a working-class upbringing in Liverpool to the boardroom of Royal Mail.Ken shares how his mother's unexpected conversion at a Billy Graham event in 1966 planted a seed he initially dismissed—until a strange encounter with a spoof book on UFOs set him on a personal mission to disprove Christianity altogether. What followed was months of investigating the resurrection for himself, and a decision, as a university student, to give his life to Christ.Together, we explore how that decision led Ken into "the Upper Room"—a Liverpool youth revival that began as a two-week outreach and became a decade-long movement, drawing hundreds of teenagers, many from broken and abused backgrounds, into a transformed faith. We also trace his remarkable career: turning down promotions, swapping jobs against his boss's warnings, and rising—without ever applying—to become Chief Operating Officer of Royal Mail, all while keeping church and family as his first priority.In this episode, we discuss:•⁠ ⁠How a skeptical teenager's private mission to disprove Christianity led him to faith•⁠ ⁠The story of "the Upper Room" and a revival among Liverpool's most overlooked young people•⁠ ⁠Leading without hierarchy—and why servanthood, not status, defines real leadership•⁠ ⁠Choosing family and church over career advancement, even when it made no sense•⁠ ⁠Steering Royal Mail through a national strike and a record-breaking 25-hour negotiation•⁠ ⁠What it looks like to seek first the Kingdom of God in ordinary working lifeWe also reflect on the Upper Room's 40-year reunion—some who'd walked away from faith, others who became vicars and missionaries—and why the seeds planted decades ago are still bearing fruit today.Let me know your thoughts in the comments—where in your own life can you see God quietly preparing you for what's next?#DancingWithWisdom #KenWright #RoyalMail #ChristianLeadership #Faith #ServantLeadership #Revival

In this final conversation I sit down with Terry Virgo for a deeply honest and hope-filled discussion about revival, faith, and the future of the Church.After nearly 70 years of following Jesus, Terry shares wisdom from a lifetime of prayer, leadership, and longing to see God move in extraordinary ways. Together, we explore what it means to live with spiritual hunger, stand firm in truth, and remain expectant—even in a rapidly changing world.In this episode, we discuss:• What true revival really is (and isn’t)• Why prayer is more than a “shopping list”• The role of faith, hunger, and persistence• Encouragement for young leaders navigating today’s challenges• Staying grounded in biblical truth amid cultural pressure• Living with hope—both for revival and the return of JesusWe also reflect on signs of God moving around the world today, and why now may be a time to lean in—not pull back.This conversation is a call to pray boldly, believe deeply, and expect more from God.Let me know your thoughts in the comments—how can we live with greater expectation of what God will do in our lives and our increasingly unstable world?#DancingWithWisdom #TerryVirgo #Revival #Faith #Prayer #ChristianLeadership #SpiritualHunger

In this conversation, Terry Virgo reflects on nearly 70 years of following Jesus, exploring the tension between receiving grace as a gift and continuing to pursue a deep, daily relationship with God. His conclusion is both simple and challenging: grace doesn’t remove hunger—it awakens it.At the centre of it all is a striking principle: the daily responsibility of keeping one’s soul “happy in God.” Not as sentimentality, but as a deliberate practice—choosing gratitude, reflection, and openness to grace, even when life feels heavy. For Terry, that grace is found in Christ: not just as a belief, but as a living personal source of renewal, joy, and strength over a lifetime.He speaks candidly about discouragement—moments where leaders fell, communities fractured, and hope seemed fragile—and what it takes to keep going when faith is tested. Rather than offering quick fixes, he points to a deeper resilience formed through prayer, perseverance, and a continued hunger for God, even in the hardest seasons.The conversation also touches on the role of spiritual experience in shaping confidence and purpose. Terry describes how openness to the Holy Spirit transformed his life, unlocking a boldness and vitality that carried into every area of ministry and mission.It was a genuine pleasure to sit down with Terry for this conversation—his honesty, depth, and lived conviction made it both inspiring and quietly challenging.Honest and thought-provoking, this episode invites you to consider what truly sustains you—and whether the very things you think should satisfy might actually be stirring a deeper hunger for something more.#DancingWithWisdom#GraceAndHunger#PrayerAndPerseverance#InnerFulfillment#PurposeAndMeaning

In this episode of the podcast I continue my conversation with Terry Virgo about one of the most liberating themes in being a disciple of Christ: grace.Many people — even people of faith — live with the quiet feeling that they must somehow prove themselves to God. We try to do the right things, avoid the wrong things, and hope that our efforts will make us acceptable. But the message of the gospel is very different.In this conversation, Terry explains a powerful idea from the Bible using a simple picture: it is like moving from one relationship to another. Instead of living under a system of rules that constantly reminds us how we fall short, we are invited into a living relationship with Christ — one that brings forgiveness, new life, and the power to grow and change from the inside out.We explore questions many people wrestle with:If grace means we are freely forgiven, why do our choices still matter?If we are not saved by good works, why does the Bible still talk about doing good?How do we know what God is actually calling us to do with our lives?Why does real spiritual growth almost always happen in community rather than in isolation?Along the way, Terry shares practical stories about discovering our unique calling, finding our place in a community of faith, and learning to serve God not from guilt or pressure, but from joy and gratitude.If you have ever felt caught between trying harder and feeling like you’re not doing enough, this conversation offers a refreshing perspective. Grace does not lead to passivity — it leads to a new kind of life, where love, purpose, and good works grow naturally from a relationship with Christ.My hope is that this episode helps you glimpse something of what the Bible calls the lavish grace of God — and discover the freedom and joy that flow from it.#TerryVirgo#ChristianLeadership#GraceInRealLife#LivingInTheLightOfEternity#DancingWithWisdom

In this third conversation with Terry Virgo, we go deeper into God’s lavish grace — and we ask the question that always comes next: If grace is truly free, what stops us from drifting into passivity… or just carrying on as we were?Using Romans 6 from the New Testament, Terry unpacks a simple but life-changing “package” for real freedom:Know what God says is true: in Christ, you died with Him.Consider / reckon it to be true — not based on feelings, but on God’s ultimate verdict.Take responsibility: don’t offer your body to sin as an instrument — make wise choices, don’t “provide” for temptation, and practise discipline without sliding back into legalism.Along the way, Terry shares memorable illustrations — the watercolour painting that must be allowed to dry, and the shift of living in a new “location”: you are now in Christ, with a new reality as solid as a new time zone.We also explore the difference between justification and sanctification, why getting the order wrong can be crushing, and why true grace doesn’t oppose effort — it opposes earning.Terry closes by praying for a fresh dawning of peace, freedom from condemnation, and the joy of living from rest — while still making good choices as those invited to serve God.If you’re a recovering legalist (like many of us), this episode is both grounding and liberating.#TerryVirgo#ChristianLeadership#GraceInRealLife#LivingInTheLightOfEternity#DancingWithWisdom

In this warm conversation, I sit down with Terry Virgo — a man whose life and ministry have shaped countless others, including me. At 85, Terry embodies something increasingly rare: a joyful, humble, grace-soaked faith that has only grown richer with time.What struck me most in this interview is Terry’s utter simplicity and freedom. He speaks with a lightness of spirit that comes from decades of learning to rest in God’s kindness rather than his own effort. As he shares his story, you hear the journey from striving to surrender, from pressure to peace — a journey I know many of us long to make.We explore grace not as a doctrine but as a lived reality — the kind that sets the captive free, rekindles joy, and releases us from the exhausting need to “get it right.” Terry reflects on identity, calling, leadership, ageing, and what it means to remain fruitful and full of courage in the later years of life. It is a conversation filled with wisdom, humour, and the kind of hope that looks beyond this world to something far greater.If you’re hungry for a faith that is lighter, freer, and more deeply rooted in grace… if you’re navigating complexity and longing for clarity and joy… or if you simply want to learn from a man who has walked faithfully with Jesus for over six decades — I think you’ll find this conversation both grounding and uplifting.My prayer is that it encourages you, as it encouraged me, to live the rest of your life in the light of eternity — with open hands, a confident heart, and a renewed sense that the best is still to come.

Terry Virgo: From Party Life to a Global Church Movement - A Story of Grace and TransformationAt 16, Terry Virgo’s world was all parties and pleasure—until one moment changed everything.In this Dancing With Wisdom conversation, Dr. Sunil Raheja explores how God’s grace turned a restless youth into a leader of Newfrontiers and a voice of revival.What turns a hard-partying teen into a father of a global church movement? In this fascinating opening to a series of conversations, I have the privilege of sitting with 85-year-old Bible teacher Terry Virgo to trace the surprising twists: a sister’s bold question after a Billy Graham rally, four years of a “double life,” a thunderbolt sermon that forced a choice, and a leap from safe Civil Service career to living by faith—with jaw-dropping stories of provision down to the exact pound.Along the way you’ll hear:How Terry broke free from “Romans 7” legalism into the joy of grace—“I don’t have to impress God; I’m hidden in Christ.”The moment he nearly lost heart…and the promise in Genesis 28 that steadied his calling for decades.Why stale, formal church life pushed him to pioneer grace-soaked, Spirit-alive communities—the seeds of Newfrontiers across 70 nations.The love story with Wendy that began with a hockey stick, a blunt letter, and a chapel prayer.If you’ve ever wondered whether people (or churches) really change—or how grace moves from page to pulse—this conversation will stir your faith and reframe your future.Listen now to see how one ordinary life became an extraordinary legacy ...