Ken Winner on the Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil Interview episode 24
Ken Winner, wing foil designer extraordinaire talks about his background as a pro windsurfer and how he became a designer at Duotone and developed the first inflatable handheld wing for foiling. At first there was little interest in his invention but once a few people tried it, the sport of wing foiling really took off.
Transcript of the interview:
Aloha friends. It's Robert Stehlik. Thank you for tuning into another episode of the Blue Planet Show, where I interview foil athletes, designers, and thought leaders. You can watch this show right here on YouTube or listen to it on your favorite podcast app. Today's interview is with Ken Winter, the designer at Duotone wing designer extraordinaire.
And as always, I ask questions, not just about equipment and technique, but also try to find out more about his background, what inspires him and how he got into water sports. So Ken was really open in this interview, shared a lot of information about wing design, even showed his computer screen where he designs wings.
So that's at the very end of the interview. So you don't want to miss that part. It's really cool if you're into Wing design and wanna know more about the materials and the construction, the design and Ken's philosophy. This is a really good show for all that kind of information. During this interview, I'm gonna play a little bit of footage of Alan Cadiz Wing foiling in Kailua.
I got some drone footage of him, which was after this interview, but he's using the 2023 Duotone unit Wing 4.5 meter wing. I'll play some of that in the background. Thank you so much for your time, Ken, and for sharing all the detailed information. So without further ado, here is Ken Winner.
Okay. Good morning, Ken. How are you doing today? Good morning. I'm pretty good. All right. It's a little bit of a rainy and windy day here on Oahu. How's the weather on Maui? Same. Same. Yeah. Yep. So have you had super stormy winds the last few days? It's been crazy windy here. Yeah, it's been gusting 45 at times.
Do you actually go out in those kind of conditions or do you wait? Yeah. Windy days. Yeah. It's pretty fun. Yeah. So you've been doing what you, what do you do on days like that? You go on a down window or you just go go off? I only do down windows with my wife nowadays. That's her favorite thing.
Otherwise I from a friend's house over on Stable Road and Peter actually lives on Stable Road and so we launched there, go out race around a bit, test different wings, hydrofoils. Nice. What kind of equipment were you on in, on those super windy days? Anything from a two to a four.
Sometimes we go out pretty overpowered just cause we have something we wanna try and we don't have many choices. Some days we just have to go and do what we can with what we have. We do a lot of prototyping in the four and five meter size. We do a fair amount in the three meter size and then smaller and bigger.
We also prototype and test quite a bit, but maybe not as intensely. Nice. Okay. But before we get more into all the equipment and stuff like that, I wanted to get talk a little bit about your background. So tell us a little bit about start in the beginning, like wh how, where you grew up and how you got into water sports and all that kind of stuff.
was born a long time ago, 1955, so there's a lot of history there. You don't wanna hear it all. Grew up near Annapolis, Maryland. Did a fair amount of recreational cruising type sailing. My dad owned boats. Built a lot of stuff when I was a kid. Owned a couple boats when I was a teenager.
Started windsurfing in 75. How extensive do you want this to be? Started windsurfing in 75, won the world championship in 77. We won again, 80 in 81. We had the right there on Oahu, where you are. We had the World Cup, the PanAm World Cup, which I. Actually, yeah don't worry about making it short.
Like we, we got time. So just actually like how did you get into windsurfing? What was your first experience with that? Or what were you doing? Anything other like surfing or water sports before windsurfing? Yeah. No, I've never actually surfed. As I said, I grew up sailing I, when I was a teenager, maybe 17 or 16, I bought a old wooden boat, a little wooden boat, a Bahamas fixed it sailed around, kept it house else.
I also bought a shark catamaran sail out bit. So I was into sailing and I, I saw an ad for a windsurfer and thought that would be a good thing for me to try. So wind, Also about the same time bought a hang glider. So I taught myself to hang glide and but I really enjoyed the windsurfing more so sold everything else and just focused on windsurfing.
So that you were around 20 years old? Yeah. About 20. Yeah. Did you you have any like formal education or did you go like straight into wind surfing? Yeah, it's funny, I was gonna University of Maryland when I started windsurf, and I might have stuck with that, but I started windsurf and thinking, oh, I can go to college little, a little time windsurfing.
And and then when I'm ready to quit, I can go back to school. But I never did actually go back to school, kept wind surfing. For the next forever , 23 years, but ba So basically you're self-taught, like all the knowledge you have on with computers and aerodynamics or, all that is basically from experience and self-taught kind of thing or?
Yeah, I do a lot of reading. I remember in, sometime in the early eighties Barry Spanner, I think got a book. The title was The Aerodynamics of Sailing. And I, I heard him make a comment about it, so I got it and I read from cover to cover several times and really absorbed, I think the lessons of that.
And did a lot of other reading after that. But that was sort my foundation for learning about the technical side of sailing. , nowadays, of course, it's super easy to get a lot of information online, really good information. So unless you're pursuing a career like attorney or doctor or degreed engineer or PhD scientist, you don't need formal education as much as you used to.
If you need it at all, I don't know. But yeah, I think as long as you're a lifelong learner, you can pretty much teach yourself almost anything. . Yeah. Okay. Yeah, a lot of things, for sure. Yeah. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna do some screen sharing here from the windsurfing Hall of Fame.
There's little bit of information about you online here. So in the, so you started windsurfing in 1975. That's, this was the day, days when they, the booms were still made out of wood and so on, right? Talk a little bit about your first first wind windsurfing set up bought a used board for 300 bucks and went out, taught myself to use it, and just became hooked like most people.
Did it every chance I had. And at first all I focused on was trying to improve my skills. That was hundred percent of my effort. But then gradually over time, I got more interested in improving the equipment. So over time I did some things like. Built my own boards and built my own rigs, masks spoons.
Yeah. And you start, you started winning a lot of races, so you were very focused on the com racing side of windsurfing or also I guess freestyle as well, right? Yeah. So I won the freestyle world two or three times, and that was back, it was a much simpler affair than it's now. Of course, the guys who do freestyle nowadays circles around all of us who did freestyle back then.
yeah. Around. But you gotta start somewhere in every sport. And so that, that's a picture of Robbie and Jurgen in me at the pan, the Panta actually which was right there on Wahoo. Over in Kai. Yeah. And you were able to beat Robbie, I guess at that point. Still, and you have several world world titles right?
In Windsurf racing. Yeah. Robbie and I were rivals to some extent, but he was younger and when he got to be when he achieved his full adult strength, he was extremely hard. I started when I was 20. He started when he was nine. And it's surprise that he dominated the sport so much for so many years.
He's a amazing athlete and really great guy. Good entrepreneurs, got a great business. And and we're still rivals. , it's been a good, it's been a good 40 some years. . And then you started build, you said you started building your own boards and making smaller and smaller boards, right?
Yeah. So I, excuse me. Yeah I built a a nine foot board. Actually prior to that I had a board shaped for me and glass, and that was a board I would say. I basically invented carving, jives, cause everybody had boards back then. I had a round tail board, which carve through my, instead of skid through them.
And basically from that point on, I focused a lot on trying to improve my equipment. I you're showing a picture of the Transatlantic Windsurf race, which was a pretty funny. That was in about 98, I think. But this has gotta be pretty boring for anybody watching. People are interested in what's happening now.
Yeah. No, I don't think so. I don't think so at all. I don't think any, what he's gonna find is boring at all, but, , yeah, just yeah. And then I guess you yeah, I tell us a little bit about how you got into the Wing, wing des, or were you designing w windsurfing sales for duo to before kites, or like how, or, and then, yeah.
Just tell us a little bit about how you got Yeah. So I went surfed intensely for three years. I guess in 97, I think I won the US Racing Championships. And then just shortly after that I tried kiting for the first time. And basically after I tried kiting for the first time, I I sold on my windsurfing gear and got straight into kiting.
My, my first kite experience was with Don Monague right off Stable Road on Maui. He was out kiting. I was out windsurfing and I told him I wanted to try that, so he handed me his control bar and the leashed, his board to my ankle, and he told me how to secure the kite. And I, so I kited back and forth down to Kaha for the next half hour.
And so that was my, that's how I got hooked on kiting. And so from the very first session, you were able to stay upwind and everything and no, I didn't stay upwind. I ended up down at Kaha, so starting at camp one, ending up at Kaha. Oh, okay. And yeah and when, not long after that, I spent a week on Maui hiding every day.
And and then a few months after that I did some, I did a how kite video. Cause there were no schools, hardly anybody knew how to learn. So I did some videos. Robbie was saying needed somehow to kite videos. So took the opportunity to do that. We sold about 30,000 videos and then of course, schools came along and the internet came along.
So that was, there's, you don't need that kinda stuff anymore. It's all online. Yeah. Oh, so you had a, like a VHS tape on how to kite and sold it like through magazines and stuff like that. But I actually, I used the Nash distributor network to the dealer network to sell boxes of videos to dealers who would then them, to 'em, to customers.
And I had a website so I could retail videos directly to the customers. And we actually did a total of three howto videos over a couple years time. And then I helped convince boards and more, which is the parent company of Duotone and fanatic to get into kite boarding kit, making kites.
. And so that was about the year 2000. And we tried to hire people to do the job of designing kites, but there were so few kit designers at the time that I ended up taking it on. So I had learning design kit weeks and in China working 16 hours a day learning how to use computer aid design software, CAD software, and then pumping up existing kites and trying to figure out the geometry and trying to figure out how to do that on the Ultimately it worked, so we ended up with a decent and started growing the company from that point. Okay. So boards and more at that time, they had Brand was fanatic and or what were their brands that they were run? It, I'm just gonna say Boards and More is the parent company of the, the parent company that I work for now.
, which is we produce Duotone kites and Fanatic windsurfing gear and kites surfing and surfing gear and, sub foiling gear. Boards and More is the company I've been working for the last 22 years. And right now what is your official role at Duotone? I know, I just wanted to say I've been waiting such a long time to get you on the show because you're always so busy.
You said you have to, come up with a whole new line of wings and kites and everything, so you were too busy to meet with me. But Yeah, tell me a little bit about like your job, like your role and how you were able to make time today to come here, . Yeah. Yeah, great question.
I I tend to overcom commit and try to do more things than I can reasonably do. So years I was designing kites, but I also decided to start designing hydrofoils and that turned into a lot of work. And then I started designing wings and that turned into more work. So I was to foil design work off on some very capable guys that we in Mauritius and Germany.
And then more recently I've been able to push the kite design work off on Sky now. Sky's been working with me for 18 years. We've both been learning a lot about kite design and in the last year, so I've been helping him master the software that we use for kit design. And so now he's doing the kite design.
And I would say that he's for sure one of the most experienced and capable designers in the world, even though he hasn't been the lead on kite design until recently, but he's now and he's doing a great job. He's making some really great improvements. So having a good teacher, right? Hope . So having so now I'm just focused on maintenance, so that, like your job basically at duo tone right now is wing designer?
Yeah. I'm focused on wing design now, and we have two main wing models the unit has handled, boom. And. The unit is more focused on wave riding and down winding. The slick is more free ride and freestyle. Unit has a little bit more Wingspan Slick has a little less the okay. So before we go into the current gear let's go back to when you first started winging and like how you came up with The Wing.
I interviewed mark Rappa Horse and Alan Ez as well on the show. And they both talked about how, you guys used to go out downwind together with the standup paddle foil boards and and then, when one day you showed up with the wing. So can you talk a little bit about.
Like how you first came up with the wing and the inflatable wing design and so on. Yeah, I was trying to downwind hydrofoil with these guys, and I wasn't doing it that well, was having great success and I was getting a sore shoulder. So I was trying to figure out how could I do downwind hydrofoiling and not get a shoulder?
And I, by chance, I saw a video of Flash Austin with his homemade handheld wing that he was using on a hydrofoil at Kaha. And I thought eight years before I had designed some inflatable handheld wings for suffering. Not with a hydro, but just for, and so I thought I wonder if something like that would work.
It fits my skillset because I do inflatable adult toys. And so I, I went home, got on the computer, designed crude. Another crude, handheld, inflatable wing. So those designs are you sent me an email with some pictures. Is that from that time when you designed your first wings?
Yeah. That, that blue and black wing was my first effort to do a handheld inflatable wing. My idea was to use it on aboard, and that was back in two 10 Sky and I tried it. So this one was the one the original one that you made for for basically wind windsurfing on or on a regular windsurf board?
Well, a sub board, yeah. Board. Ok. Yeah. And so it was very similar to what we have today, actually, you yeah. It has some similarities. Yeah. And then you would, hold one hand would go here on one hand here. Yeah, that's how it was at first. Okay. And I tried another one a month or two later and Sky and I didn't, we tried and we didn't really think it was that much fun.
Another guy who designs for us took the idea and made a inflatable rig. We call it the I rig, which was pretty nice for kids, very low impact. So I remember that. So in that picture of six wings, you can see the first two in two 10, 2011. And then in 2018, I tried something. I just yeah, just very quickly threw something together.
I modified an existing neo design and like a Neo's, one of our kites. And sent that off to the factory. And then when I took it to the beach and stepped on the board and sailed away, it popped up. I popped up on the foil immediately and sailed right out to the reef. Turning around, I fell and I had trouble getting going again.
But basically I considered that a success and I figured that would allow me to do down windows without stressing my shoulders. I kept building prototypes after that sky went, this was June of 2018. Sky went to a dealer meeting in there and demonstrated it for everybody. Everybody there and nobody was interested.
And then we took it to the SI show in August and nobody was interested. But then finally in November, people started getting interested. I got our ceo Alber. He's a, he used to be a snowboarder on the German national team, so hes really good. And he had thought it looked too complicated and difficult, but then when he tried it, he discovered that it's not too complicated and difficult.
Maybe we make some of these and people will buy 'em. So at that point we decided we were gonna go into production with wings, and I think some other brands decided at that point. Interesting concept. Of your of your wife, and then you also sent me this little video. So she was the fir you said probably the first woman to wing Foil. Is that, Yeah. Sky's wife, Christine and Julie both tried it out. I think right around Christmas time of 2018. And then after that Julie got very interested in it.
And I took her out at KEG quite a few times, and I think this was her first time on the North Shore , and she was a little excited by the size of the swell . So nowadays she, she really enjoys doing downs from to the harbor and she can do it in about 35 minutes if she's in a hurry.
And it's her favorite sport. Cool. Yeah. And then this was your first wing design? The foil wing. And I actually got one of those. I've been, I was waiting for a long time and then finally got the wing and I think it was a three meter, the first one I got. And it was yeah, it was super cool because same as you were, we were trying to do the foil doman runs and Really kind. It's really hard actually. But talk a little bit about this first wing design and because it had a boom and no strut and then it had full battens and so on. So talk a little bit about the swing. Your first Yeah. Starting from scratch, we had no, I had no idea really what to do with it.
We, we tried differentl angles and different patterns. I put bats in it because that reduces the fluttering by quite a bit. Nowadays we don't have belong bats because we've found other ways to reduce the flutter. Some of us have a lot of brands go ahead and continue making wing wings with a lot of flutter, but I don't really care for that.
The boom I made my first few wings with handles as you saw in the photo, and I really hated the handles. Then I went to a kind of a strap on rigid handle. And then after that I thought why should I have a strut and a boom or strut and a handle and I can just have this one boom or long tube and potentially save money and hassle.
So that was the reasoning there, but, It turns out the strut is really nice for stabilizing draft. And so we went back to using a strut sometime later. Yeah. Like I know the, that first wing, it was it did that TikTok thing right? When you held it by the front handle it, it didn't really behave very well.
Just lefting behind you. It didn't yeah. So was that, I guess part of the reason for that was because it didn't have that strut to of stabilize it. Yeah. I think the strut kinda acts like a ruter in some respects helped stabilize the it's really hard to know what's gonna be important to people when you're starting with something new.
One of the, one of the things I have to do is I have. I can't just pay attention to the things I like to do. I have to pay attention to what other people like to do. At first, to me, the idea of holding the wing by the front handle I just never did it. I would hold it by the boom. So never really noticed that instability when I was using it myself.
Yeah, but basically, yeah, that's what, how when I used it on a wave, I would just hold the front of the boom and it worked fine. But but then, yeah, I guess some of the other wings were really stable, just holding it in the front handle and you'd be able to surf with it, just holding the front handle, which, which then I guess so yeah. So another thing that's kinda interesting is if you wanting, that will be pretty stable when you're just on the, we experimented with. And the thing we found is that if I let the air out of my wing and let it get a little bit floppy, take it down to three or four psi, it will fly on the leash.
Really stable. But then if I pump it back up to eight psi and I haven't really tight 12 canopy, which is something I like, then it's no longer really stable on the leash. So far we kinda have to make the choice. Do we wanna, do we want our wing more floppy and therefore it'll fly on the, or do we want our wing more stable?
Which it's less stable on the leash, but it's more stable otherwise. And so basic, so that's basically why you have those two different wings. One is the unit for more that's more, I guess more stable being on supplying by itself. And then the unit is more, has more of a profile. And is that kind of the thought behind it?
We go for a lot of canopy tension on both models of wings. We're not gonna compromise on canopy tension cause it gives, it helps give lift to the, when it's, and it improves power when you're pumping. It improves de power and stability when you're overpowered. So we're not gonna compromise on canopy tension but the difference, one of the differences between the slick and the unit is the unit has more sleep. In the leading edge, and that helps improve the stability. While it's, if you're surfing a wave and holding it by the front handle, the fact that it has more sweep than the slick makes it a little more stable in that respect than the slick.
But then the downside is you have more wingspan, so it's easier to catch a wing tip, by sweep. You're saying like the leading edge in the front is a little bit more like this versus that kind of thing? Or, but what do you mean by sweep? Sweep is the you know how some airplanes, like a fighter jet will have wings that are swept back.
And some wings, like a sail plane will have wings that are not swept back. . So sleep is that back angle in the leading edge. Understood. Okay. And DL is the up angle in the leading edge. So we've done quite a bit with different DL patterns and some things I thought would be better weren't.
So I thought a progressive DL would be more stable than a linear dl. And a linear DL is actually more stable. So the new unit has a very linear DL shape and uhno. Another thing that's kinda interesting is some wings have very little dl and the advantage of that is when the wing is lying flat on the water, it's less likely to flip over.
The disadvantage of that is it's hard to have a, with a deep canopy and with a lot of canopy tension when you have little, so again we're giving up the fact that. . Our wings when they're lying belly down on the water, are more likely to flip over than somebody else's mic. But on the other hand, we have the ability to put in more depth while maintaining really good canopy tension cause we have more behavioral.
So would you say there's a downside to having more canopy tension? Like to, to me it seems like the more tension you have, the, the better the profile works, but I guess like sometimes on a wave or whatever, when you're luing it, it has a little bit more drag, right? Is that, or like what's your experience with a tension?
The canopy tension gives you less drag if you have, if more canopy tension gives you less drag when you're, but the wing is more stable while if it has A bit less canopy tension. If I let some air pressure out my wing and make it have less canopy tension, it'll flutter more. And that makes it drier and sad to say it makes it more stable.
Yeah. Cause it basically when it doesn't have a lot of attention, it can just completely flatten out and just flutter flat. Versus attention has, it still has that profile. Yeah. So thet thing you can have is a wing that flaps and flutters and loves, but that drag impart a certain amount of stability.
I see. This is one of those things where you, it's hard. It's hard to get, it's hard to get everything you want. Divorce, trade offs. Okay. So maybe talk a little bit about things you've tried early on that were that ended up on the trash tape and versus, like things that, I guess like the full battens, you said in the beginning you tried them or used them to reduce the flutter, but I remember those battens used to break really easily too in the waves, right?
So the, they're thin battens. Yeah. So early on I never really even imagined I would be using a wing in the waves, which is why I didn't mind putting bats in . They don't, they're not really compatible that way. It's, I did make a three strut wing early on. My, my fourth wing in 2005th wing in 2018 was a three stru wing.
And it was, perceptively heavier. So I didn't make any more three str wings for a while. So by, sorry, by three struts you mean three inflatable struts? Like this kind of Yeah. So the blue one? Yeah. The 3.0 from July of two 18. Yeah. Yeah. I tried that and it was, not a great wing and a little on the heavy side.
So I decided I was gonna try to stick with just one strut, and then actually went to a home after that. For the simplicity and the low cost and so forth. So the three stru is something I abandoned early on, but it does have potential advantages. So we've been doing more work with that. F1 has a nice three wing.
It has its pros and cons, but there are people who like it. And one of the reasons is the fact that you have strut takes away the corner, the the back corner at the tip of a wing, and that's the place people drag most often when they're trying to get going. Getting rid that, I'm sorry, screen.
Share that again. So what you're saying, like this corner is what drags in the water when you're to get foiling, right? Yeah. And so a certain arrangement of three strut, I certain three strut geometry will get rid of that corner. . So I think F1 actually has like a patent a patent or a patent pending for that third strut.
But it looks like you were the first one to develop that. So how does that work? They They, if they came to contesting it with us, I don't think they could win. But I don't think either of us or them are interested in having a fight. So I don't think it'll be a problem for us.
So basically when, I know Duotone is also has a, I think you, I know you have a patent for the hand, the rigid handles on the unit. Are there any other patents that you're, you've gotten or applied for and Yeah, we've, and the question is like, why didn't you apply for a patent for the inflatable wings in the first place?
Or did you? Because I think in part you have to do it pretty quickly and it can't really be in the public domain. So these wings that I made in 2000 10, 2 11 From what I understand is they were out there in the public domain and they were, they happened many years before.
And so just trying to patent an inflatable wing I don't think that was an option. But we've tried to, we've applied for patents on various aspects of the inflatable wing design as, things related to the DL and boom. And trying to think, what can I mention? What can I not, there's some things we do that we don't even talk about because some people.
Aren't aware and we don't wanna give them ideas. Yeah, you don't wanna give away your secret sauce. So I understand. Not too, it's not too soon. Yeah. . Yeah. Okay. So actually I had a question from a friend, my friend Steve. He was asking, have you ch or about basically, on windsurf sales where the can doer and stuff, they have a left tube to improve the laminar flow on the bottom side of the, have you tried that?
Have you tried playing with that and or what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, that, that's a popular topic. It came up in in connection with kite design years ago, and I think when I was picking up. The first kite that I actually owned from Don Monague, he was talking about that very idea and doing it in connection with kites.
And Don Monague has done amazing amount of work along those lines in connection with kites. And if you were to see PDFs, he put all the things you tried, you would be astonished. Don would be a really interesting guy for you to talk to on this. Don Monague. Okay. Yeah. . Yeah, he was the kit designer for Nash 20 years ago, or 23 years ago.
, he's moved on to a lot of really interesting things. But he was talking about it then he worked with it then, and it, it's never really worked for kites for a variety of reasons. There's weight, there's the tendency for. Water to get in and weigh down the kite. Complexity, cost and the actual benefit is hard to find.
I've also tried to do elliptical, leading edges in kites and where I have two leading edges side by side. Kinda two bladders next to each other kind of thing. Yeah, exactly. Trying to thin out the shape of the wing and make it stiffer. And that, that's been really hard to make it work. There are people who, tried this stuff and they, know, somebody's probably gonna succeed at some point someday, but so far hasn't One of the problems with double surface on a wing is that the lower surface tends to keep the flow attached, and that attached flow sucks the second surface down. And actually tends to suck the whole wing down. So we spent a lot of time making sure our wings always lift. If you're locking the wing, it lifts if it, if you get hit by a lifts every, all the time, our wings are lifting.
If you add that second surface, boom, your lift goes away. The flow remains attached on the bottom of the wing. As it passes, the leading edge sucks the lower surface down and sucks the whole wing down with it. And this is something I've actually experimented with and tried and observed, so I'm not just speculating here.
Interesting. Again, I'm not saying it'll never work, but it's not a slam dunk. It's not an obvious, easy thing to do. And the benefits aren't obvious either, so Yeah. And it's more weight, it's more cost. So we and with wings in particular, we have to worry about weight.
Wind surfers don't worry about weight nearly as much as we do apparently. Tis are, you have to hold it, hold that thing up in, in your hand, and light wind especially then the weight really makes a difference. It does. Yeah, for sure. What about rigid wings? I know people have been making rigid wings for on the ice and stuff like that, but and forever, have you played around with that or have you tested rigid wings?
Yeah. Yeah. I saw early on I'd like to have a rigid wing that opened up like an umbrella. . And I actually have tried some rigid and hybrid prototype. But the problem you run into there is you lose one of the greatest attractions of wings, inflatable wings, which is the simplicity in the fact that you just blow 'em up and go and when you have rigid components, elements.
You make a more complex, harder to rig up. They're less robust because something like a carbon fiber tube can break pretty easily, especially in the waves. And I question whether a lot of people would want give up the simplicity and the robustness of inflatable in order speed or higher or whatever tructure might give you.
That's priority for Right.
Would working on that for kids and people who aren't fanatical wingers, people who wanna get into it, but aren't gonna be doing it every day, I would, I'm interested in making it better for families rather than, Better for Kailin . Yeah. But obviously you're also very interested in going fast and testing.
I know ANCA has told me that you guys go out and race each other and see what's faster and test equipment and that's, he told me about the Mike's lab foil that he let you know, you let him try your foil and then he got one himself and I just got one recently.
So those are, yeah, just having a fast foil makes a big difference that alone, right? I do going fast up to a point about the Mike's slab, what happened was during the pandemic we had a shortage of fanatic hydrofoils. We weren't getting the latest stuff. We weren't even able to get anything out China for a while.
My wife is pretty into getting the latest stuff. So she ordered Mike's lab hydrofoil and she got it and she actually had a hard time with it, so I started using it. So I used it a fair amount. But she went to an 1100 Mike's Slab and that worked really well for her. Then she moved to 800, which worked well for her.
Then she went to a and that worked well for her, and now she's, now, she now, I dunno she's in the five 40 to 800 range nowadays, depending on what she wants to and so through all that I've been using her hydros as well. But I also use, fanatic has some new stuff that I also use. Peter Slate, who I sail with a lot, is using fanatics and he's going really fast with, he's hard to keep up with.
And Alan, of course is very hard to keep up with too. Yeah. And I, sorry, should, when we're talking about fast and I should say don't try to go faster race, because I think that but I'm not sure how to put this. I think that racing with slow equipment is actually more interesting than racing with fast equipment.
In the old days of windsurfing, we raced with really slow boards. Didn't matter that we were going slow. Cause the important thing was trying to use the wind and the waves and whatever we found out there to go a little bit faster or to take a slightly shorter course than the next person. So I don't of speed as requisite on the, and.
just getting on the water and racing with the stuff you have is pretty interesting. . Yeah, I that's I guess the beauty of one design racing where everybody uses the same equipment and it's not an arms race and it's more about this, your skill and sta strategy and so on, right? Yeah, exactly.
And I think of it as the most social form of winging on the water because you're actually doing something with other people. And it's a very sort of a responsive thing where you do one thing and somebody will do another thing in response. So you're, there's interaction that you don't have pretty much any other time, except when you're wanting people to stay outta your way on wave, which is different kinda interaction.
But getting back to the winging that Alan or Peter and I do if we're racing around side by side, Trying to go faster. What the main thing I'm doing is I'm trying to assess the performance of the wing. I'm trying to, the power delivery, I'm trying to, is the power consistent hit?
Does easy to deal with gust? Is it difficult to deal with the gust when a gust hits, do I accelerate or do I just slow down because there's so much drag? And then, we'll go upwind and we'll go downwind. And if we're going downwind, we can, whether we can deeper with one wing rather than another.
This all translate into performance that even someone who's not racing is gonna appreciate. And you can notice subtle differences between wings when you're side by side with somebody of equal ability. But you can't notice if you're just out there cruising by yourself. So that, that, I think that's a real valuable thing for us.
But the other thing we do is we've got Finn and Jeffrey Spencer out there on our wings. They test every prototype that comes in. They write our little report and every wing that that comes in, they go out, they loop 'em and spin 'em and race around with them. Do everything that anybody does with them and evaluate them in very thorough, in a very thorough manner, I think.
Yeah. I think originally they used to ride for what's it called? They used to write for Slingshot. Slingshot, yeah. So how long have they been writing for Duotone? The last few months. Okay. Yeah, they're amazing wingers. Talk a little bit about the r and d process. I guess it's like you can't really make too many changes at once yet, right?
You have to change one, one variable at a time, and then like how many prototypes go into like how many prototypes do you have to make to come up with next year's wing, kind of thing. I'm just curious about that. Yeah, so for the 22 4 meter unit i, I design I name every prototype with a, from the alphabet.
So I got down to Q on that one. I'm not sure how many. That's maybe 20 or so. And each one is one that you actually made. Is it just a, do they all make it to the, to be actually samples, or those are all actual samples that you made or that's a good question. I might starting design and try five different variations on my computer.
, but they'll all be the same letter. That might be, it might be, okay. Four B dash one or four B dash two and I'll, okay. I'll look at all those and then I'll decide which one I wanna try and in person. And I'll send the, I'll generate patterns. Send the patterns to the factory. The factory, ship it out a week later, or five days later.
And then we'll test it. But, I can go through dozens and dozens of prototypes before we finalize a line like, The unit from size two to size 6.5, which is 10 sizes. And we do build and test every size before we put any big into production. Yeah. But I guess on Maui, like basically the four meter is your, like that's the one you start with and then once you have a good four meter, then you start working on the other sizes.
Is that kind of how you do it or? Usually I'll do a four or a five in a lot of iterations. I'll also do some sixes. I'll also do threes. I did quite a few threes on the latest slick design because it can be hard to get a three meter working really well. So we , we made six or seven threes before we felt like we were in the right ballpark with with the slick.
Yeah, because you can't really use the same design and just make it bigger and smaller because obviously the bigger wings the, one of the issues is that they have too much wingspan, so you have to make 'em kind of lower aspect and then, but the smaller wings, it's not, the wingspan isn't so much of an issue.
So can you talk a little bit about that? Like the differences be from your bigger swing to your smallest w in the same lineup, or is that Yeah, that's exactly right. The wingspan, the aspect ratio can be a little bit higher in the smaller wings. With the bigger wings, we haven't really gone over seven and we haven't adjusted the aspect ratio that much up to there.
But in the future we'll probably have a seven and an eight with a little bit lower aspect ratio. Another thing you can't scale exactly is. Pretty much everything. You can't scale. Exactly. You have to make adjustments with everything. So if you take a five meter that you like and you wanna go smaller, you actually as a percentage have to go bigger with diameter of the leading edge.
And because if you were to scale those down exactly to a, like a three meter, the leading edge wouldn't be big enough in diameter to get the stiffness you want. And then it goes small wing. You really want a stiff leading edge. Cuz otherwise when you're winging and gusty wind, it'll just bend.
Yeah. And that, let's talk a little bit about that, the leading edge diameter, like the what you learned about that from all your designing and where, what are your thoughts on that and also the different materials. I know you're doing the unit D-lab with the a Lula fabric and stuff like that, and can you make the diameter thinner with the different fabric if you have more pressure and so on.
Just go talk a little bit about that. Yeah. At first of course I was trying a lot of different diameters to see what seemed to work OK at my weight. And one of, one of the issues we have is people of all different weights are doing the sport. And we have to optimize around the average weight of the average writer wrap.
So why are you showing that? Oh, I just wanted to bring up some of the wings and the different I was gonna show the aula wings and stuff like that. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. Distract you there. Yeah. So leading edge diameter is a huge topic and most of us who test are in the one 40 to one 90 weight range.
So we tend to optimize for that weight range. And a four meter wing has a diameter of about 10 inches at the center. And at eight psi or eight and nine psi, that seems to enough,
we've. Tried going smaller diameter. When we go to our ULA wings or glab wings are made outta right now and is great cause it's very light. It's very, and you would think that since it's so you could go smaller in diameter, but after making quite a few prototypes with smaller leading edge we see both advantages and disadvantages.
So you can have a little less drag if you're going up wind or if you're in a lot of wind, you get less drag with a smaller leading edge. But if you lose a little bit of air pressure, then you have a softer leading edge. And the smaller, the leading edge, the more sensitive it's to small losses and air pressure.
So with our DLA wings, our Lulu wings, we've decided to just keep the diameter about the same. And anybody that wants a little bit softer leading edge can run a little air out. And then bigger riders, the 200 pounders or 210 pound riders will have something that's fully stiff enough to handle their weight.
That's one of the tradeoffs we've made with leading edge diameter. Another thing, so basically you found that you can't really even though the all Lula can handle more pressure, you can't really reduce the the leading edge diameter by much? Not yet. We can. It's just when we do it, we find that we're not happy with the tradeoffs.
. And so we're leaning toward being conservative. We won't, we don't want. We don't want people to have unreasonable we don't want their expectations to be stymied. Yeah we're getting the best all around performance by keeping the leading edge diameter pretty substantial.
Recently, for example, we made two identical slick prototypes. One with standard leading edge diameter. One with maybe a not quite a 2% drop up a about a two centimeter reduction from about 10 inches to a little over nine inches. And the smaller leading edge diameter had advantages as we expected. If we were going up wind and a lot of wind, the guy on the smaller levy edge had a, had an advantage.
But overall it had a little less power, little less grunt. And if we lost a little bit of air pressure, it had a little less stiffness. And we felt like those were big enough problems to keep us away from that. Okay. So can you talk a little, sorry, go ahead. Another thing we did related to leading edge stiffness is we put a two 30 gram Dacron in the center.
That white panel, those white panels in the center are a heavier, stiffer Dacron. So we put those in a place where there's a lot of stress on the leading edge and both in terms of point loading where the strut attaches and that leading edge handle attaches and the leash touches. And it's also a point where there's a lot of bending load.
So that helps make our leading edge differ. I know a lot of brands will double up on their clock there. , which we did at one point, but we really prefer the single layer of two 30 gram Dacron. It's very robust. Interesting. Can you explain like how, why you recommend different pressures for, depending on the size of the wing, like I, I see you're the 2.0, you're recommending 12 psi and then for the 5.5 7.5 and kind of in between.
So can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah. The load on the seams, first I should say the closing sea of a leading edge has the most load on it. Of all the seams, it has twice the load on it. Segment, the inter segment seems are the ones between panels of, so we do a lot of testing to try and maximize the strength of our closing.
But one thing about closing seams is the load on the closing sea is related to, it's proportional to the pressure times the diameter. So if you have a small diameter, you can have higher pressure without overloading the closing sea. But if you have a big diameter, have to have lower pressure to avoid overloading the closing scene.
And think every, everybody understands this in the business. They're all recommending higher pressure for small and lower pressure for big, and it's all related to how much load the closing can handle without breaking. I. I see. Okay. Do you our standard Dacron construction can handle 15 or 18 PSI in a four meter size before it breaks.
And I've, I. Done test tubes. I do a lot of test tubes where we test the strength of seam and I've done test tubes where I've taken it up to five psi in the standard diameter for four meter before its, so we do actually quite a bit of lab testing and bench testing on things like strength and cloth strength.
So the difference between the unit and the D-lab unit is basically just the material of the leading edge and the str. Is that correct? Otherwise? Yeah, that's correct. Another difference is that the materials stretch a little differently and they require different seam construction. So I can't use the same patterns for the D-lab that I use for the unit.
Customize the patterns for the D-lab wings. To make adjustments to allow for a different, not just different stretch, but also different shrinkage because different scene construction will take up more cloth. know, One scene construction might take up X amount and the other scene construction will take up 1.5 x amount.
So I have to make those adjustments in the patterns. And then I've noticed let's talk a little bit about the flutter in, in wings. I noticed looks like the unit has like this little tiny Batten thing versus the D-lab doesn't have that. Is that what's the reason for that? No. The D-lab has it.
They just didn't put it in the graphic. Okay. They both have it. But that's one thing I noticed, like the first generation wings, they would get really baggy quickly or after a few months of using them, they would get all bagged out and and you would lose a lot of performance and there would be a lot of flutter in the, in especially in the trailing edge.
So how did you, do you eliminate that? Or how are you able to get away without battens in the trailing edge and avoid fluter stuff like that? About a year and a half ago we decided we were gonna attack that problem and we built some wings with different materials stronger rip stop materials for the canopy, and we sent 'em out to team writers in schools around the world and got feedback on how durable the different materials were.
And so the material we use in the canopy, the white material in the canopy of the, no, not that one. That, so that one has standard kite rip stop, which is 50 gram rip stop, which is pretty good, especially if you get this panel alignments right. And you get the warp orientation. But then the wing, you're showing now the 2023 D-lab which I think is coming up tomorrow.
Oh wow. That has our, what we're calling mod three for modules, three ripstop material in the canopy. So the white material in that canopy has three times the bias stretch resistance of the standard kite style. Rip stop and. That makes it not only more resistant to things like rips when you drop it on your hydrofoil, but really makes it more durable and a higher performance material.
It makes our standard unit feel more like a D unit because it's more solid and when you're pumping it, you get better response. It's not a spongy response, it's a, it's more rigid response when you hit a gust. The draft is really super stable. So all around it's a big improvement. There's a small weight penalty of course.
But we've, we did some testing where we built three nearly identical six meter wings and we put different amounts of this mod three material in the canopy of each one. So they would in weight by bit. And we founded the canopy with the most, with the largest amount of this material in it was far and away the best performers.
So we decided to put in all of our wings for 2020
canopy. So that, so basically that combats that bagginess after, after using it for a while. That doesn't stretch as much, basically. Exactly. Yeah. I just noticed that. Okay. Yeah. So this is the traditional canopy, the mod three. You just have less stretch and especially in the d diagonal direction, right?
Yes, exactly. So I just noticed that for the unit. You recommend, the D-lab wings, you recommend a lower pressure than the regular unit wings. Why? Why is that? You get more stiffness for the pressure, know, whatever you're given pressure is. The D-lab gives you more stiffness, but the thing about all is it's incredibly strong and stiff.
It's incredibly strong everywhere except where you put a hole in it. So if we have to sew these things together so they have thousands of holes in them, and we do a lot of reinforcement on the seams with materials that are not alu. , but our testing shows us that these are the numbers we should be using for inflation to be safe.
And so even though you might pump a five meter to seven instead of eight, it's gonna be stiffer at seven than Aron wing at eight. Okay. So you, you just said, so tomorrow you're gonna release the new the 2023 wings. I think on your website, this is still your 2022 model, right? So what is the no that DLA you're pointing at is the 2020.
Oh, I'm wrong. It's the 2022. You're right. It's got the windows for 2022. So what has changed? I think I've seen Alan with some wings that have two windows here. Is that like one of the ways you can tell, or? Yeah. So the new units. Have windows that are more like the current slick, the 2022 Slick has four windows, not just two of them.
Ok. And that improved our, that improves the visibility quite a bit. So talk a little bit about the seam orientation. Because it seems like the seams have a little bit more they don't stretch as much as the fabric, right? So is that, is that you're trying to use the seams to add more basically more tension to the canopy?
Is that what your thought is on that or? What I'm doing there is I'm trying with the wing design in general, I'm trying to get more tension from tip to tip across the canopy. And in order to deal with that tension, I'm, or I'm making the thread orientation run tip to tip. So it's more about getting the thread orientation.
The aligned with the loads that I'm trying to put in the, and that's actually evolved a bit. Those same angles have changed for 2023. And I surprised there's no photo anywhere of the 2020 threes. They've been out for a while now. . So the Duotone Sports website doesn't have the New Wings.
Yeah, I dunno. But yeah, so talk a little bit about the changes that you did make in the wings from 22 to 23 other, I guess the windows, the seams, but what else has changed? Yeah the cloth is a huge thing. It's a really big thing.
And up to now, the leading edge materials have lasted longer than the can materials, and you really want everything to break all at once, ideally. So we change the windows, we change the, we increase the depth and the power of the wing a bit. The profile depth is greater. So we are getting more power, but the canopy cloth itself also improves the top end, so we have more wind range overall.
We we refined the tip angles, tip angles, tip twist has a lot of influence on wing performance. And so we've been, we've gone through a lot of prototypes trying to find the tip angles that are best. So I'd say we have an improvement in overall power delivery in part cause we've got better control over tip twist.
Trying to think what else we've done is I know I'm forgetting something. So the, this wing that Alan Kiddas is using is probably the 23 right? As that's probably A2 three prototype. Correct. That's one of our prototypes where we were trying different canopy materials. Material is one of the materials we tested for use production.
And we, we decided not to use it, but it's a very good material. We might use it in the future as possible. Okay. Interesting. Cool. That's cool that , you're able to talk about that it's gonna be released shortly for wing design. What's your philosophy and what are you trying to accomplish when you're designing a wing?
I guess for this slick, I really like a wing that delivers power as, very consistently across the wind range. And, I've ridden a lot of wings. I've, I've ridden wings that don't do that. Most wings in the past haven't done that. And we're getting better and better at keeping the power on at all times.
I like a, that's always lifting. A lot of people don't have that yet. I like a wing with good canopy tension for low flutter good pumping. Never want, I never really want have to move my hands cause I'm in a, the old days of windsurfing and the old days of winging, you hit a, you have back, wind, move back.
You used move handle, or, which is one reasons I liked having a boom at first because I could just slide my hand back. I didn't have to let go and grab another handle. Nowadays the wings, our wings are so stable that I never really have to move my hands back or when lull hits, they're always in the right place.
So that's really important to me and I think it's important to everyone when I'm thinking about the sport in general and how to, how to make the sport appealing to more people. I think about the fact that we get families doing winging. We get. No, my, the guy who actually runs our wing brand guy named in Germany, lives just off the Baltic Sea, near Keel.
He has a seven year old son who started when he was five. And yeah, I think that's awesome. I love the idea being able to do the sport. So I don't ever wanna lose focus on making it easy, making it accessible, making it affordable. We're a high end brand, so we don't tend to go for the bargain basement type wings.
But we do wanna make quality wings at a reasonable price, and I don't wanna lose sight. Yeah. And like in terms of price, like obviously the, a Lula wing is much more expensive, the material like, and like what, how much of a performance advantage do you actually get out of that material and is it, only like someone noticed that, is it just for high performance wing foiling or do you think the average user, it's a big advantage for them to go with a Lula fabric?
Yeah, I mean anybody that can afford it will benefit from it. It's just a question of do you wanna spend the money and, know, where are your priorities? You have three kids you have to worry about until spending my wife likes them cause they're light and she doesn't need the stiffness, but she likes the low weight, so she always wants to be on, if possible bigger rider like the.
Someone who weighs 200 pounds is gonna really benefit from the stiffness or somebody who likes to jump, who benefit from the stiffness. Most people, it's totally a matter of whether they wanna spend the money or not. You, there's always a benefit and the bigger the wing, the greater the benefit.
So a six meter gives you more benefit in aula than a three five in Aula for sure. So let's talk a little bit about the equipment that you use personally. What's your go-to wing like on Maui? I know you have, what, which wing do you use the most, on. We use s scores and fives here a lot.
Three. Three fives scores and fives a lot. . On a sea breeze days, sea breeze day when it's blowing six, eight knots, I can be on a seven or eight pretty easily. And. Of course if it's blowing like it has last week, I can easily be on it too. And do you prefer the unit or the the slick wing for your personal use?
I really like booms a lot because I can, it's easier to locate my harness lines precisely and I can put my hands anywhere and I can fly one handed. When I say I'm getting from my, from a sitting position to a kneeling position I can one hand the boom and that makes it easier.
One hand. But, I used to hate handled wings, but we, our handles are good enough that I like the units also. So what I, it's pretty much whatever I'm working on is what I'm writing. So lately I've been working on slicks mostly and I've been writing slicks mostly. But in the coming few months I'll be working on units entirely and I'll be writing units.
So what changes have you made to the slick wing for 2023? What have been? So we did a lot of the things on the new slick that we did on the unit. So we went to the mod canopy, we four windows. We have gone with more canopy depth and more power. We fine tune the tip twist and we had some reflex, quite a bit of reflex in the strut of the 2022 slick.
With the new canopy cloth. First I should point out that the thing the reflex did was made it so that the back of the canopy didn't bag out so much when you get gust or if you're out in high wind. So the reflex in the stru improved the top end performance of the slick. By however, with our new canopy, We don't have that bagginess in the cloth.
So we were able to tone down the reflex by quite a bit. It's just a maybe three degrees now of reflex in the strut. I should point out also that the wider tips of the flick make it so that the slick benefits more from a little bit of reflex than the unit. The unit has narrower tips and it works different.
What else on the slick? We've changed the shape of the strut a little bit. And yeah, o overall it's a lift smoother, lift wing, smoother wing. The power development is actually the smoothest of any I've tried. So when we're sailing along through Guston walls, we feel the gusts less with the slick than we have with any other wing we've ever tried.
Okay. And then what about your board and your foils? Like what are your go, what's your go-to equipment on that? Yeah, so I I don't use small boards. I did a little bit a while ago, but I don't jump, so I don't really need a small board. I've been using 75 liter five foot boards quite a bit for the last year or two.
And lately I've been on a five four, that's 24 wide and we're trending narrower. Some of us are trending narrower, just cause if you're on a small hydrofoil, if you have a little bit longer narrower board, you can pop up on the foil more easily. But. A longer board isn't necessarily good for waves, so anybody who's on, heavily into waves isn't gonna be on the longer board.
I see. There's probably, I'm sorry, go ahead. Oh, sorry. I was just gonna say the ta tail shape, I mean I know it people used to have all the kick tails and all that, but it seems like with the, the smaller, faster foils high aspect foils you need, it's almost like you don't want to pop up at a steep angle.
You want to keep that board as flat as possible on the takeoff. So do you still use that kick tail or is it just a flat tail in your Yeah, I haven't used kick tail in quite a while. And I think those were mostly valuable in the bigger boards cause it was hard to some lift.
Sinking the tail and getting the nose up is easy. So I think you don't really need any kick for a small board. , the boards I use my mask is about six or seven inches from the tail of the board. So there's just not much back there to keep it from kicking up in the nose. And then how long is your mask?
What mass length do you like? I've been using in the 90 to 95 range a lot. And I've used longer, but there's a lot of shallow water around here. Yeah, I was gonna ask what's the disadvantage? So a lot of times it's, it is just like you don't want to hit the reef, right? ? Yeah. The longer, longer mass are either they're, to keep 'em stiff, they have to be a bit heavier and maybe a little thick, which.
Not necessarily attractive. And then there's, you always have to look at what the tide's doing. Where I ride I don't like to go out. If there's less than a foot of water a foot above mean water. And if it's two feet, that's better . And sometimes I'll just go to the harbor. If it's a super low tide time of day and I need to test something, I might go to the harbor.
Cause at least I know they can get away from the beach without hitting the bottom. I'm curious cuz you've done a lot of testing, like when you get scratches on your foil from the, like hitting the reef a few times all my fos are pretty scratched up. How much does it affect the performance, like in your experience?
Hugely. Hugely. Yeah. Yeah. It's terrible. I feel it. I've had, I won't say bad luck, but I have had collisions with things in the water that have destroyed my foils. And you really notice yeah, you notice everything. If you're, if you're sailing with somebody else, you notice because you're going slower all of a sudden, if you're not, yeah.
Do you repair it? Scratch, do you try to repair scratches in your foils? Or is there a way to Oh yeah. Fix it. Like how do you repair scratches on the bottom of the foil? I usually try to keep the scratching to a minimum and I'll just use a little tiny bit of two epoxy to fill the scratch.
Just, just enough to fill it and then sand it smooth. , I wanna get some epoxy paint so that I can, do a proper paint and sand job on some foils. But I haven't got around to that yet. You can't get a shipp here. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So that would be like a two-part paint epoxy paint kind of thing.
Yeah, there's stuff called DPO out Think Australia that America's Cup campaigns use for their hydrofoils and boats. That's supposed to be really good, but you have to ship it by boat probably, or something like that. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, . Okay. And then what we talked a little bit about the Mike's lab foils, but like what foils do you use the most and what sizes and so on?
Yeah, so we have a phone has a really nice five 90. It's, I don't think it's in the shop. It's a five 90 front wing that I really like. They, we have a seven, we, we've got an eight 50. We've got sizes, I guess the, I really dunno what's on the website. Okay. You just have a look real quick, but okay.
So that's pretty small for you. You have five 90 is pretty small foil size for your you're not, probably not as light as Alan could is or someone like that, right? Yeah, Alan and I use a Mike five 40 sometimes my wife uses it too. And so Alan and I can sail around both being on five 40, but 60 pounds, 50 pounds.
So work for most days around here, something like a five 90 is a really nice size for me. Lighter wind days. The seven five is good. It's a very powerful for size. I was looking at the so are they the duotone foils or the fanatic foils did you say? Use those are Oh, the ones you're showing the, there's those are kite hydrofoils.
Oh, duo Kite hydrofoils. Okay. And they're not the, they're not the latest stuff. I don't know if we have the latest stuff on the website. Cause it's been quite the challenge to get the new stuff outta Asia. It's basically not in available yet, basically. Yeah, I think so. Okay. So probably by spring on the mainland.
Okay. And that, but the, so the foil that. Five 90 that you're saying using, I assume that's a pretty high aspect pretty thin fast foil. Is that kind of what you, how you would describe it? Yeah. It's, yeah, high. It's probably 10 to one aspect ratio and designed to be fast. We have cfd Computational Fluid dynamic in Germany who does, we work for a lot of projects, likeer America's Cup campaigns, and he's designed some profiles for us, for our mask and for our wings that we think are really very competitive.
I, Peter rides his stuff all the time and he's extremely hard to keep up with, so I have no doubt that it's fast. , yeah. It's pretty amazing how much the foils have improved over the last couple, or, last three years or so. Coming from the early goal foils, what foils did you start on?
I was designing our kite hydrofoils and our windsurf hydrofoils, and we had some decent trading windsurf, hydrofoils. And then when I started making 'em bigger, they weren't very good at
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