Thinking With Mitch Joel

Welcome to episode #1032 of Thinking With Mitch Joel (formerly Six Pixels of Separation). At a time when productivity is still measured in speed, output and constant motion, few voices are pushing for a more human… and ultimately more effective… way of working than Natalie Nixon. A creativity strategist, keynote speaker and founder of Figure 8 Thinking, Natalie has built her career helping leaders unlock the business value of imagination… not as a soft skill, but as a strategic capability. Her work sits at the intersection of design thinking, anthropology and business innovation, and her previous book, The Creativity Leap, positioned curiosity, empathy and intuition as essential leadership muscles. In her latest work, Move. Think. Rest. - Redefining Productivity & Our Relationship With Time, Natalie challenges the deeply embedded belief that more effort equals better results… arguing instead that we're not in a tech revolution, but a human one. She introduces the MTR framework (movement, thought and rest) as a way to rebalance how we work and live, emphasizing that creativity doesn't happen despite pauses… it depends on them. In this conversation, Natalie explores how burnout and busyness have become normalized, why organizations must move beyond outdated productivity metrics, and how leaders can cultivate environments where creativity and trust can thrive. She makes a compelling case that AI, while powerful, is not the story… it's the backdrop. The real opportunity lies in how humans choose to engage with it… whether we double down on efficiency or expand into imagination, play and connection. From rethinking workplace culture to redefining growth as a non-linear, deeply human process, this conversation is a call to redesign not just how we work… but why we work at all. Enjoy the conversation… Running time: 1:02:21. Hello from beautiful Montreal. Listen and subscribe over at Apple Podcasts. Listen and subscribe over at Spotify. Please visit and leave comments on the blog - Thinking With Mitch Joel. Feel free to connect to me directly on LinkedIn. Check out ThinkersOne. Here is my conversation with Natalie Nixon. Move. Think. Rest. - Redefining Productivity & Our Relationship With Time. The Creativity Leap. Figure 8 Thinking. Sign up for Natalie's newsletter. Follow Natalie on Instagram. Follow Natalie on LinkedIn. Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction to Creativity and Productivity. (04:01) - The Crisis of Creativity and Busyness. (08:06) - Redefining Creativity in Various Professions. (11:57) - The Role of AI in Creativity. (15:52) - Human Connection in the Age of Technology. (19:51) - The Infinite Nature of Creativity. (24:14) - The Importance of Play in Work Culture. (32:35) - Cultivation 2.0: Rethinking Productivity. (34:01) - Proofs of Concept: Companies Leading the Way. (39:03) - Culture and Productivity: An Inextricable Link. (40:51) - Redesigning Work: The Need for Systemic Change. (45:51) - Navigating Liminal Spaces: Embracing Uncertainty. (50:47) - The Human Revolution: Beyond Technology. (56:07) - Rest as a Productivity Tool: A Paradigm Shift.

Welcome to episode #1031 of Thinking With Mitch Joel (formerly Six Pixels of Separation). At a time when businesses are still trying to wrap their heads around "customer experience," few thinkers have shaped that conversation… and pushed it forward… as much as B. Joseph Pine II. As cofounder of Strategic Horizons, Joe has spent decades helping organizations understand how economic value evolves… from commodities to goods, to services, to experiences… and now, to something far more ambitious. Best known for The Experience Economy: Work Is Theatre And Every Business A Stage, Joe didn't just introduce a concept… he gave leaders a new language to describe how businesses compete for time, attention and meaning. In this conversation, Joe extends that thinking through his latest work, The Transformation Economy: Guiding Customers To Achieve Their Aspirations, where the goal is no longer just to stage memorable moments… but to help customers become something more. He argues that the highest form of economic value isn't what a company delivers… but what a customer becomes as a result. That shift reframes everything: experiences are no longer the end game… they are the raw material for change. Drawing on decades of research and real-world examples, Joe makes the case that businesses must move beyond efficiency and even beyond engagement… toward fostering human flourishing across dimensions like health, wealth, wisdom and purpose. It's a bold elevation of the role of business… one that demands a long-term mindset, ethical use of data, and a deeper understanding of individual customers as people, not segments. And while technologies like AI can accelerate customization and coaching, Joe is clear that tools alone won't get us there… mindset will. In a world obsessed with speed, optimization and short-term gains, this conversation is a powerful reminder that the real opportunity lies in helping people grow… not just transact. Enjoy the conversation… Running time: 58:44. Hello from beautiful Montreal. Listen and subscribe over at Apple Podcasts. Listen and subscribe over at Spotify. Please visit and leave comments on the blog - Thinking With Mitch Joel. Feel free to connect to me directly on LinkedIn. Check out ThinkersOne. Here is my conversation with B. Joseph Pine II. Transformation Economy: Guiding Customers To Achieve Their Aspirations. The Experience Economy: Work Is Theatre And Every Business A Stage. Strategic Horizons. Follow Joe on Substack. Follow Joe on X. Follow Joe on LinkedIn. Chapters: (00:00) - The Experience Economy: A Game Changer. (03:07) - Understanding Experiences vs. Services. (06:01) - The Challenge of Attention in the Experience Economy. (09:05) - The Progression of Economic Value. (11:50) - Transformation: The Next Level of Value. (14:56) - The Role of Self-Service in Experiences. (18:07) - Empathy and Customer-Centric Business. (20:53) - Long-Term Thinking in Business Strategy. (31:32) - Long-Term Investment Strategies for Companies. (34:51) - The Importance of Meaningful Purpose in Business. (37:48) - Data, Analytics, and the Customization Revolution. (39:40) - Balancing Data Use and Customer Privacy. (46:51) - The Concept of Flourishing in Business. (52:15) - Experiences vs. Anti-Consumerism. (53:35) - AI: The Future of Customization and Transformation.

Welcome to episode #1030 of Thinking With Mitch Joel (formerly Six Pixels of Separation). At a time when marketing (and AI) feels both hyper-measurable and strangely uncertain, few voices bring as much clarity… and lived perspective… as Avinash Kaushik. A longtime friend (and he's also available for your next meeting at ThinkersOne) of the show and one of the most influential thinkers in marketing and technology, Avinash first rose to prominence as the analytics evangelist at Google, where he helped bring web analytics into the mainstream and reshape how businesses think about measurement and decision-making. He is also the bestselling author of Web Analytics 2.0 and Web Analytics: An Hour A Day— thinking that has become foundational texts for marketers navigating data-driven environments. Today, he serves as Chief Strategy Officer at Human Made Machine and as a strategic advisor at Tapestry, working across brands like Coach and Kate Spade to drive transformation at scale. Beyond his corporate roles, Avinash continues to publish his widely read newsletter, The Marketing Analytics Intersect, where he explores the evolving intersection of data, technology, and business strategy while donating all proceeds to charity. In our conversation, Avinash unpacks how the industry over-indexed on performance metrics at the expense of brand, and why that imbalance is now being corrected… not by marketers, but by AI. He argues that while AI will automate much of what we once considered core marketing work, it simultaneously elevates the importance of judgment, creativity, and asking better questions. Drawing from real-world examples, Avinash makes a compelling case that the future belongs to those who don't just adopt AI tools, but rethink their role entirely. The opportunity isn't to do the same work faster… it's to redefine what work is worth doing in the first place. And while the hype cycle around AI is loud, Avinash offers a more grounded perspective: imperfect systems, messy organizations and human dynamics will always shape outcomes. The real risk isn't that AI replaces us… it's that we fail to evolve alongside it. Enjoy the conversation… Running time: 1:16:13. Hello from beautiful Montreal. Listen and subscribe over at Apple Podcasts. Listen and subscribe over at Spotify. Please visit and leave comments on the blog - Thinking With Mitch Joel. Feel free to connect to me directly on LinkedIn. Check out ThinkersOne. Here is my conversation with Avinash Kaushik. The Marketing Analytics Intersect. Web Analytics 2.0. Web Analytics: An Hour A Day. Human Made Machine. Tapestry. Book Avinash on ThinkersOne for your next meeting. Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction to Avinash and His Journey. (02:50) - Transitioning from Google to Agency Life. (06:01) - Reflections on Marketing Roles. (09:13) - The Challenges of Agency Management. (11:54) - The Evolution of Marketing and Data. (15:05) - Identifying Patterns in Marketing Success. (17:52) - The Importance of Brand Marketing. (21:13) - The Balance of Performance and Brand Marketing. (24:05) - The Role of AI in Marketing. (26:52) - The Future of Brands in an AI-Driven World. (29:49) - Optimism and the Impact of AI. (39:50) - Harnessing AI for Data Analysis. (42:01) - Practical Applications of AI in Business. (46:30) - Organizational Adaptation to AI. (48:01) - Cultural Shifts in Embracing AI. (55:06) - The Future of Work and AI. (01:00:57) - Skepticism Towards AI Hype. (01:06:03) - Preparing the Next Generation for AI. (01:13:56) - Cultural Insights and User Experience.

Welcome to episode #1029 of Thinking With Mitch Joel (formerly Six Pixels of Separation). These days, technology feels both familiar… and completely unrecognizable. Few voices bring the kind of clarity and grounded perspective that David Armano does. A longtime digital strategist, advisor, self-proclaimed futurist and friend, David has spent decades at the front lines of transformation… helping organizations navigate everything from the rise of social media to the mobile-first revolution, and now the seismic shift of artificial intelligence. In his current role at Launch by NTT Data, he works directly with enterprises trying to make sense of AI not as a tool, but as a system-wide change that touches people, process and culture. Alongside this, his widely read Substack, David by Design has become a space where he explores what he calls "intelligent experiences, "and the broader societal implications of living in a world shaped by AI. In this conversation, David frames AI as both a continuation of past technological waves and something entirely new, with a cognitive reach that extends far beyond previous disruptions. He reflects on how organizations are grappling with adoption - often caught between experimentation and transformation - while individuals face a more personal tension: the realization that the very tools augmenting their work may also replace it. At the same time, David pushes beyond the typical optimism-versus-doom narrative, offering a more nuanced lens rooted in what he calls "adapting intelligently"… a form of realism that acknowledges both the extraordinary upside and the very real societal risks. From the emergence of an "intelligence wealth gap" to the psychological impact of algorithmic systems, we explore how AI may amplify both opportunity and inequality… rewarding those who learn to direct it while leaving others increasingly dependent on it. Grounded in both professional experience and personal reflection, this is a conversation about change at every level… not just technological, but human.  Enjoy the conversation… Running time: 1:00:57 Hello from beautiful Montreal. Listen and subscribe over at Apple Podcasts. Listen and subscribe over at Spotify. Please visit and leave comments on the blog - Thinking With Mitch Joel. Feel free to connect to me directly on LinkedIn. Check out ThinkersOne. Here is my conversation with David Armano. David by Design. Launch by NTT Data. Follow David on X. Follow David on LikedIn. Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction to David Armano. (02:17) - The Evolution of Digital Transformation. (06:46) - AI as a Force Multiplier. (10:07) - Real-World Applications of AI. (13:34) - Enterprise Perspectives on AI. (18:32) - The Human Element in AI Adoption. (22:46) - The Future of AI and Society. (30:53) - Geopolitical Implications of AI. (32:04) - The Evolving Global Landscape. (35:54) - The Intelligence Wealth Gap. (39:08) - Navigating the Creator Economy. (44:34) - AI Slop vs. Vibe Content. (51:00) - The Future of Work and Knowledge Workers.

Welcome to episode #1028 of Thinking With Mitch Joel (formerly Six Pixels of Separation). In a world increasingly defined by information overload and ideological certainty, the ability to change one's mind may be the most undervalued skill of all… and few thinkers have explored that terrain as deeply as my friend, Nir Eyal. A bestselling author, behavioral design expert and former Stanford lecturer, Nir has built a career examining how habits are formed, how attention is controlled and how human behavior can be shaped both externally and from within. His previous works, Hooked - How To Build Habit-Forming Products and Indistractable - How To Control Your Attention And Choose Your Life, established him as a leading voice on the psychology of technology and focus. In his latest book, Beyond Belief - Change Your Mind, Change Your Life, Nir shifts inward, exploring the often invisible force that determines whether knowledge translates into action: belief itself. Drawing on behavioral science, psychology and lived experience, he introduces what he calls the "motivation triangle" - behavior, benefit and belief - and argues that without belief, even the best strategies and intentions collapse. At the core of his work is a provocative idea: beliefs are not truths… they are tools (flexible, revisable constructs that shape what we see, feel and do). He explores how limiting beliefs persist even when we know better, why we often fail to act on advice we actively seek, and how techniques like "turnarounds" can help reframe our assumptions to unlock agency and change. At the same time, Nir wrestles with the broader implications of belief in a polarized, AI-driven world… where narratives are reinforced, critical thinking is uneven, and certainty is often mistaken for truth. Grounded in both rigorous research and personal reflection, his work reframes belief not as something to defend, but as something to consciously design and refine. Nir is also available to join your meetings or gatherings on ThinkersOne. I have had him on the show countless times and he is always inspiring and insightful. Enjoy the conversation… Running time: 54:58. Hello from beautiful Montreal. Listen and subscribe over at Apple Podcasts. Listen and subscribe over at Spotify. Please visit and leave comments on the blog - Thinking With Mitch Joel. Feel free to connect to me directly on LinkedIn. Check out ThinkersOne. Here is my conversation with Nir Eyal. Book Nir for your next meeting on ThinkersOne. Follow Nir on Instagram. Follow Nir on LinkedIn. Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction to Nir Eyal and His Journey. (05:50) - Understanding Belief: Tools, Not Truths. (11:56) - The Power of Prayer and Its Impact. (17:59) - Liberating vs. Limiting Beliefs. (23:59) - Beliefs as Tools for Action. (32:54) - Beliefs as Tools, Not Truths. (43:01) - The Power of Optimism and Self-Reflection. (51:34) - Embracing Change and Open-Mindedness.

Welcome to episode #1027 of Thinking With Mitch Joel (formerly Six Pixels of Separation). Will Storr is an award-winning author, journalist and storytelling researcher whose work explores one of the most powerful forces shaping human behavior… the stories we tell ourselves about the world. Over the course of a career that blends psychology, neuroscience, investigative journalism and narrative craft, Will has become one of the most compelling voices examining how stories shape identity, belief and culture. His bestselling books include The Science of Storytelling, Selfie: How We Became So Self-Obsessed And What It's Doing To Us, and The Status Game, each offering a deeper look at the hidden forces driving human motivation and social behavior. In his latest book, A Story Is A Deal - How To Use The Science Of Story To Motivate And Persuade, Will explores how storytelling operates as a powerful psychological transaction… a kind of deal between storyteller and audience that shapes what we believe, who we trust and how we act. Drawing on research from neuroscience and psychology alongside examples that range from ancient rituals to modern brand campaigns, Will shows how narratives influence everything from the leaders we follow to the products we buy. In this conversation, Will explores why people so often believe stories before they believe facts, how identity and status shape the narratives we embrace, and why character-driven storytelling remains the most powerful way to influence human behavior. At the same time, he wrestles with the darker side of narrative… the way stories can fuel misinformation, reinforce tribal identities and manipulate audiences when used without care. As artificial intelligence begins to play a role in creating and distributing stories, the conversation also turns to questions of authenticity, creativity and the future of narrative itself. I'm a huge fan of Will's work and it was truly a honor to host him. Enjoy the conversation… Running time: 54:58. Hello from beautiful Montreal. Listen and subscribe over at Apple Podcasts. Listen and subscribe over at Spotify. Please visit and leave comments on the blog - Thinking With Mitch Joel. Feel free to connect to me directly on LinkedIn. Check out ThinkersOne. Here is my conversation with Will Storr. A Story Is A Deal - How To Use The Science Of Story To Motivate And Persuade. The Science of Storytelling. Selfie: How We Became So Self-Obsessed And What It's Doing To Us. The Status Game. Will's other books. Follow Will on LinkedIn. Follow Will on Instagram. Follow Will on X. Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction to Storytelling and Its Significance. (02:47) - The Power of Story in Belief Systems. (05:43) - The Role of Story in Climate Change Narratives. (08:56) - Navigating Complex Conversations and Identity. (11:45) - Storytelling as a Business Tool. (15:41) - Consciousness and Story: An Indivisible Connection. (18:18) - Persuasion vs. Manipulation in Storytelling. (20:29) - AI and the Future of Storytelling. (27:29) - The Emergence of AI-Generated Content. (29:36) - The Emotional Connection to Art. (31:31) - The Future of Cultural Art and AI. (32:54) - AI's Role in Creative Writing. (36:35) - The Formula of Storytelling. (40:39) - The Impact of AI on Writing Quality. (44:14) - The Science of Storytelling. (49:41) - The Role of Character in Business Narratives. (56:34) - Understanding Religion as a Status Game.

Welcome to episode #1026 of Thinking With Mitch Joel (formerly Six Pixels of Separation). At a time when strategy has become a kind of corporate theater… carefully crafted presentations, ambitious roadmaps and bold declarations that rarely survive first contact with reality… Kevin Ertell has spent a career focused on the harder question: why execution so often fails. Kevin is the Founder and CEO of Mistere Advisory and a veteran operator whose three decades of experience include leading large-scale retail and e-commerce operations at global brands like Nike, Sur La Table, Borders, and Tower Records. Over the years he has developed a reputation as a straight-talking advisor who helps leaders turn complexity into clarity and ambition into measurable results. His work spans industries including technology, healthcare, retail, consumer goods and manufacturing, where he focuses on helping organizations align teams, simplify priorities and build the operating rhythms required to deliver on their plans. In his new book, The Strategy Trap - Why Companies Fail at Execution and How to Get It Right, Kevin draws on decades of frontline experience to tackle a frustrating reality of modern business: most strategies don't fail on paper… they fail in the real world. Through practical frameworks like his Six Cs of Execution (Co-creation, Clarity, Capacity, Communication, Coordination and Coaching) he argues that strategy and execution must begin in the same room, with teams co-creating the plan and committing to disciplined follow-through. Kevin explores how incentives shape behavior, why organizations must slow down to create clarity before accelerating, and how leadership cultures built around coaching and collaboration can unlock real momentum. Grounded in operational experience rather than theory, his work reframes strategy not as a planning exercise but as a team sport that requires alignment, accountability and relentless focus on execution. Enjoy the conversation… Running time: 58:44. Hello from beautiful Montreal. Listen and subscribe over at Apple Podcasts. Listen and subscribe over at Spotify. Please visit and leave comments on the blog - Thinking With Mitch Joel. Feel free to connect to me directly on LinkedIn. Check out ThinkersOne. Here is my conversation with Kevin Ertell. The Strategy Trap - Why Companies Fail at Execution and How to Get It Right. Mistere Advisory. Get The Strategy Trap newsletter. Follow Kevin on LinkedIn. Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction to Kevin Ertell and his Expertise. (02:51) - The Evolution of E-commerce and Digital Strategy. (06:03) - Understanding the Strategy Trap. (08:57) - The Importance of Execution in Strategy. (12:02) - Communication and Team Dynamics in Strategy. (14:47) - Co-Creation and Employee Engagement. (17:55) - The Role of Customers in Strategy. (21:04) - Defining the Strategy Trap and Its Implications. (30:01) - Navigating Change: The Role of Detractors in Strategy. (32:47) - The Rise and Fall of Retail Giants: Lessons from JCPenney. (40:58) - Harnessing AI: Transforming Strategy and Productivity. (49:01) - Coaching Mindset: The Key to Effective Leadership. (53:06) - Anticipating the Future: Understanding Change and Context.

Welcome to episode #1025 of Thinking With Mitch Joel (formerly Six Pixels of Separation). At a moment when panic travels faster than proof, few marketers are as clear-eyed… and as human… as Ann Handley. A pioneering digital marketing strategist (MarketingProfs), bestselling author (Everybody Writes and Content Rules), longtime champion of writing that actually means something and dear friend (also, if you're not susbscribed to her newsletter, Total Annarchy, you really should be), Ann has built a career reminding businesses that the point of content isn't velocity… it's connection. In her recent essay, Something Messy Is Happening: On AI, Panic, and Asking Better Questions, she pushes back against the apocalyptic certainty surrounding AI job displacement and challenges the framing that faster always wins. Responding to venture capitalist Matt Shumer's argument, Something Big Is Happening, that AI will eliminate half of white-collar work within a few years, Ann dissects the seductive panic embedded in exponential curves and racing metaphors, arguing that technological capability does not equal economic inevitability. She reminds us that adoption is human-shaped, that judgment compounds when speed becomes cheap, and that friction is often where thinking actually happens. Rather than choosing between "adapt or die," Ann advocates for a steadier path: use the tools, reject the hysteria, protect the work that builds trust, expertise and meaning over time. Grounded in curiosity rather than fear, her perspective reframes the moment not as a race to outrun machines but as an invitation to ask better questions about what we're building… and why. Enjoy the conversation… Running time: 56:04. Hello from beautiful Montreal. Listen and subscribe over at Apple Podcasts. Listen and subscribe over at Spotify. Please visit and leave comments on the blog - Thinking With Mitch Joel. Feel free to connect to me directly on LinkedIn. Check out ThinkersOne. Here is my conversation with Ann Handley. Total Annarchy. MarketingProfs. Everybody Writes. Content Rules. Something Messy Is Happening: On AI, Panic, and Asking Better Questions. Something Big Is Happening by Matt Shume. Follow Ann on LinkedIn. Follow Ann on Threads. Follow Ann on Instagram. Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction and Context of AI's Viral Impact. (01:21) - How Ann Uses AI to Strengthen Thinking. (03:43) - The Limitations and Human Control of AI. (05:09) - Content Structure and AI's Role in Creativity. (07:11) - AI's Proximity to Human Work and Its Implications. (11:09) - Extrapolating AI's Impact on Jobs and Society. (13:58) - The Emotional and Societal Response to AI. (18:45) - The Surprising Capabilities of AI in Judgment. (21:35) - The Role of Human Judgment and Creativity. (27:20) - The Impact of SEO and Content Homogenization. (29:58) - AI's Ability to Mimic Human Taste and Judgment. (36:40) - Balancing AI Use with Human Integrity. (39:36) - The Race for Content and Creativity in AI Era. (42:58) - Speed Culture and Its Discontents.. (50:34) - Navigating AI's Role in Society and Creativity. (52:50) - The Future of Creativity and AI's Impact. (54:24) - Personal Reflections on AI's Transformative Power.

Welcome to episode #1024 of Thinking With Mitch Joel (formerly Six Pixels of Separation). At a time when the digital infrastructure that underpins modern life feels increasingly hostile, few voices have been as prescient... or as relentless... as Cory Doctorow. A science fiction novelist, journalist and technology activist, Cory serves as Special Advisor to the Electronic Frontier Foundation and has long stood at the intersection of storytelling, policy and power. Over the course of a prolific career (one that includes bestselling fiction, influential tech policy books like Chokepoint Capitalism and The Internet Con, and his widely read Pluralistic blog) Cory has chronicled how digital markets consolidate, calcify and ultimately betray their users. His latest nonfiction work, Enshittification - Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse And What To Do About It, gives a name to the slow degradation of online platforms: the predictable cycle in which services begin by delighting users, then exploit them, then squeeze the businesses that depend on them, until only monopoly power remains. Cory situates this decline not as technological inevitability but as the result of specific policy choices that empowered monopolies and weakened enforcement. At the same time, Cory challenges the fatalism that often surrounds technological decline. Anti-circumvention laws, regulatory capture and collective action problems may constrain consumers, but they are not immovable forces. Cultural norms can shift. Policy can be rewritten. Markets can be redesigned. Grounded in economic literacy and moral urgency, Cory's work calls for ethical leadership, regulatory courage and a reclamation of agency in the systems that shape our digital lives. Enjoy the conversation… Running time: 1:00:43. Hello from beautiful Montreal. Listen and subscribe over at Apple Podcasts. Listen and subscribe over at Spotify. Please visit and leave comments on the blog - Thinking With Mitch Joel. Feel free to connect to me directly on LinkedIn. Check out ThinkersOne. Here is my conversation with Cory Doctorow. Enshittification - Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse And What To Do About It. Pluralistic. Chokepoint Capitalism. The Internet Con. Cory's books. Cory's newsletter. Follow Cory on X. Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction to Cory Doctorow. (03:07) - The AI Bubble: Understanding the Economics. (06:08) - The Future of AI and Labor. (08:56) - Open Source Models and Their Potential. (11:50) - AI as a Tool: The Multiplier Effect. (14:50) - The Reality of AI's Impact on Society. (17:57) - Billionaire Perspectives and UBI. (20:56) - The Disconnect Between Wealth and Labor. (23:49) - The Future of Work in an AI-Driven World. (30:15) - The Illusion of Value in Economic Activity. (33:34) - The Crisis of Ethical Leadership. (36:56) - The Role of Policymakers in Corporate Behavior. (38:45) - Understanding Lock-In: Users and Businesses. (40:40) - The Impact of Monopolies and Monopsonies. (49:22) - The Need for Anti-Circumvention Law Repeal. (54:24) - Cultural Norms vs. Regulation in Consumer Behavior.

Welcome to episode #1023 of Thinking With Mitch Joel (formerly Six Pixels of Separation). In an era where outrage travels faster than reflection, few accusations carry as much moral force as the charge of hypocrisy… and yet few concepts are as misunderstood. Michael Hallsworth is Chief Behavioral Scientist at the Behavioral Insights Team and a leading voice in behavioral economics, with academic appointments at the University of Pennsylvania and a career devoted to understanding how real people actually think and act in complex systems. His research spans public policy, organizational behavior and social judgment, examining how incentives, norms, and cognitive biases shape everything from government programs to corporate decision-making. In his new book, The Hypocrisy Trap - How Changing What We Criticize Can Improve Our Lives, Michael challenges the conventional belief that hypocrisy is simply a moral failing to be stamped out. Instead, he reframes it as a process… an inconsistency we dislike because we believe someone is gaining an unjust benefit… and argues that relentless accusations can backfire, breeding cynicism, polarization, and institutional decay. Drawing on evolutionary psychology, behavioral science, and contemporary case studies, he distinguishes between common standards hypocrisy and the more corrosive double standards that undermine fairness itself. He explores how social media amplifies moralistic aggression, how public signaling can both distort and reshape behavior, and why tolerating certain forms of inconsistency may be necessary for leadership and democratic compromise. Rather than excusing deception, Michael calls for sharper discernment: identifying which inconsistencies cause real harm and which reflect the unavoidable trade-offs of human life. Grounded in rigorous scholarship yet strikingly practical, his work urges greater self-reflection, empathy and intellectual humility in a culture quick to condemn. Enjoy the conversation… Running time: 55:05. Hello from beautiful Montreal. Listen and subscribe over at Apple Podcasts. Listen and subscribe over at Spotify. Please visit and leave comments on the blog - Thinking With Mitch Joel. Feel free to connect to me directly on LinkedIn. Check out ThinkersOne. Here is my conversation with Michael Hallsworth. The Hypocrisy Trap - How Changing What We Criticize Can Improve Our Lives. Behavioral Insights Team. Michael's Substack, The Judgement Gap. Follow Michael on LinkedIn. Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction to Hypocrisy. (02:46) - Understanding the Nature of Hypocrisy. (05:49) - The Cultural and Historical Context of Hypocrisy. (08:51) - The Evolutionary Roots of Hypocrisy. (11:50) - The Role of Hypocrisy in Politics. (14:43) - Hypocrisy in Business and Society. (17:57) - The Hypocrisy Trap Explained. (20:56) - The Balance of Hypocrisy and Honesty. (23:41) - The Emotional Impact of Hypocrisy. (26:36) - Empathy and Self-Reflection in Hypocrisy. (31:32) - Understanding Hypocrisy and Its Implications. (36:16) - The Role of Social Media in Hypocrisy. (40:56) - Navigating Integrity and Leadership. (47:09) - The Complexity of Accusations and Context. (55:13) - Rethinking Hypocrisy and Forgiveness.