The Retort AI Podcast

An exciting week for Tom, who tells Nate about his company Hortus AI, whose mission is to make AI accountable to local communities. We cover a lot of classic Retort themes as Tom makes a case for what's missing from AI development, and how models could be more healthily integrated into everyday people's lives.Press release: https://hortus.ai/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/Hortus-AI-Press-Release_Feb25.pdfCompany website: https://hortus.ai/Link to whitepaper: https://www.newamerica.org/rethinkai/policy-papers/a-sustainable-path-for-ai-development/ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.retortai.com

Tom and Nate sit down for a classic discussion of the role of AI in the modern philosophy of science. Much of this discussion is based on Thomas Samuel Kuhn's influential book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. We ask -- is AI a science in the Kuhn'ian sense? Will the "paradigm" worldview apply to other sciences post AI? How will scientific institutions manage the addition of AI?We promised an AI for science reading list, so here it is:[Dario interview with Lex] https://youtu.be/ugvHCXCOmm4?si=1hnlvue8M4pV2TqCLevers for biological progress https://open.substack.com/pub/cell/p/levers?r=68gy5&utm_medium=iosX thread on theories of change in scienceshttps://x.com/AdamMarblestone/status/1845158919523664019whitepaper linked by seb krierDwarkesh physics pod https://open.substack.com/pub/dwarkesh/p/adam-brown?r=68gy5&utm_medium=ios — Nobel in physics went to aiAi policy perspectives piece A new golden age of discoveryhttps://www.aipolicyperspectives.com/p/a-new-golden-age-of-discoveryOwl posting checking recent NeurIPS papers https://www.owlposting.com/p/can-o1-preview-find-major-mistakes based on idea from Ethan Mollick https://x.com/emollick/status/1868329599438037491also another post on the subject https://open.substack.com/pub/amistrongeryet/p/the-black-spatula-project?r=68gy5&utm_medium=iosKuhn’s The Structure of Scientific Revolutionsintrinsic perspective https://open.substack.com/pub/erikhoel/p/great-scientists-follow-intuition?r=68gy5&utm_medium=iosGet The Retort (https://retortai.com/)…… on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheRetortAIPodcast… on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0FDjH8ujv7p8ELZGkBvrfv?si=fa17a4d408f245ee… on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-retort-ai-podcast/id1706223190… Follow Interconnects: https://www.interconnects.ai/… email us: [email protected] This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.retortai.com

We're back! Tom and Nate catch up after the Thanksgiving holiday. Our main question was -- what were the biggest AI stories of the year? We touch on the core themes of the show: infrastructure, AI realities, and and antitrust. The power buildout to scale out AI is going to have very real long-term impacts.Some links this week:* Ben Thompson's, The End of the Beginning: https://stratechery.com/2020/the-end-of-the-beginning/* Miles Brundage's Substack: https://milesbrundage.substack.com/p/why-im-leaving-openai-and-what-im* Stochastic Parrots paper: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3442188.3445922Thanks for listening! Get The Retort (https://retortai.com/)…… on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheRetortAIPodcast… on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0FDjH8ujv7p8ELZGkBvrfv?si=fa17a4d408f245ee… on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-retort-ai-podcast/id1706223190… Follow Interconnects: https://www.interconnects.ai/… email us: [email protected] This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.retortai.com

Tom and Nate catch up on the happenings in AI. Of course, we're focused on the biggest awards available to us as esteemed scientists (or something close enough) -- the Nobel Prizes! What does it mean in the trajectory of AI for Hinton and Hassabis to carry added scientific weight. Honestly, feels like a sinking ship. Some links:* Schmidhuber tweet: https://x.com/SchmidhuberAI/status/1844022724328394780* Hinton "I'm proud my student fired Sam": https://x.com/Grady_Booch/status/184414542282424329000:00 Introduction04:43 Criticism of AI-related Nobel Prize awards09:06 Geoffrey Hinton's comments on winning the Nobel Prize18:14 Debate on who should be credited for current AI advancements25:53 Changes in the nature of scientific research and recognition34:44 Changes in AI safety culture and company dynamics37:27 Discussion on AI scaling and its impact on the industry42:21 Reflection on the ongoing AI hype cycleRetort on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheRetortAIPodcastRetort on Twitter: https://x.com/retortaiRetort website: https://retortai.com/Retort email: mail at retortai dot com This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.retortai.com

Tom and Nate catch up on recent events (before the OpenAI o1 release) and opportunities in transparency/policy. We recap the legendary scam of Matt from IT department, why disclosing the outcomes of process is not enough, and more. This is a great episode on understanding why the process technology was birthed from is just as important as the outcome!Some links:* Nathan's post on Model Specs for regulation https://www.interconnects.ai/p/a-post-training-approach-to-ai-regulation* Nathan's post on inference spend https://www.interconnects.ai/p/openai-strawberry-and-inference-scaling-lawsSend your questions to mail at retortai dot com This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.retortai.com

Tom and Nate catch up on core themes of AI after a somewhat unintended summer break. We discuss the moral groundings and philosophy of what we're building, our travels, The Anxious Generation, AGI obsessions, an update on AI Ethics vs. AI Safety, and plenty more in between.As always, contact us at [email protected] links we mention in the episode:* The Emotional Dog and its Rational Tail https://motherjones.com/wp-content/uploads/emotional_dog_and_rational_tail.pdf* The Anxious Generation https://www.amazon.com/Anxious-Generation-Rewiring-Childhood-Epidemic/dp/0593655036* Shadow Lake Lodge https://shadowlakelodge.com/* Recent Dwarkesh Podcast https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/joe-carlsmith This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.retortai.com

Tom and Nate catch up on the rapidly evolving (and political) space of AI regulation. We cover CA SB 1047, recent policing of data scraping, presidential appointees, antitrust intention vs. implementation, FLOP thresholds, and everything else touching the future of large ML models.Nate's internet cut out, so this episode ends a little abruptly. Reach out with any questions to mail at retortai.comSome links:- night falls on the cumberlands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Comes_to_the_Cumberlands- hillbilly elegy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillbilly_Elegy- wired piece on data https://www.wired.com/story/youtube-training-data-apple-nvidia-anthropic/- nate's recent piece on AI regulation https://www.interconnects.ai/p/sb-1047-and-open-weights00:00  Intro 01:19 Training Data and the Media 03:43 Norms, Power, and the Limits of Regulation08:52 OpenAI's Business Model12:33  Antitrust: The Essential Tool for Governing AI17:11 Users as Afterthoughts20:07 Depoliticizing AI 26:14  "Breaking Bad" & the AI Parallel28:11  The "Little Tech" Agenda31:03  Reframing the Narrative of Big Tech  32:20  "The Lean Startup" & AI's Uncertainty This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.retortai.com

Tom and Nate revisit one of their old ideas -- AI through the lens of public health infrastructure, and especially alignment. Sorry about Tom's glitchy audio, I figured it out after the fact that he was talking into the microphone at the wrong angle. Regardless, here are some links for this week. Links:- Data foundry for AI https://scale.com/blog/scale-ai-series-f - Information piece on Scale AI ($) https://www.theinformation.com/articles/why-a-14-billion-startup-is-now-hiring-phds-to-train-ai-from-their-living-rooms?shared=168f685a864ca709 - ChatGPT compounding math: https://chatgpt.com/share/2c19a357-acb2-441d-8203-946b74ce785c contact us at mail at retortai dot com00:00 Intro00:39 Chicago's Tech Scene and the "The Bear"01:22 AI and Public Health: A New Framework08:17 Lessons for AI from Sanitation Infrastructure12:58 The Mental Health Impact of Generative AI23:28 Aligning AI with Diverse Societal Values27:06 Power Dynamics in AI's Development33:02 The Need for a Neutral AI Research Body (NAIRR)36:57 New Regulations for a New Era of AI41:05 Outro: Join the Conversation This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.retortai.com

Tom and Nate caught up last week (sorry for the editing delay) on the big two views of the AI future: Apple Intelligence and Situational Awareness (Nationalistic AI doom prevention). One of our best episodes, here are the links:* The Kekulé Problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kekul%C3%A9_Problem* Truth and Method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_Method* Situational Awareness https://situational-awareness.ai/00:00 A Hypothetical Life: From Germany to AGI01:20 Leopold Aschenbrenner: Situational Awareness and Extrapolation02:01 The Retort: Apple vs. Doomsday AI03:40 Credentials and Social Choice Theory05:14 Dissecting "Situational Awareness": Hype vs. Reality07:16 The Limits of Language Models: Are They Really Intelligent?11:04 Apple's Vision: AI for Consumers, Not Conquerors13:53 Silicon Valley Myopia and the Geopolitics of AI18:25 Beyond Benchmarks: The Scientist vs. The Engineer22:04 What is Intelligence? The Narrowness of Human Fixation24:32 A Growing Disrespect for Language?27:40 The Power of Talking to Language Models32:50 Language: Representation or Revelation?38:54 The Future of Meaning: Will AI Obliterate Art?45:32 A Vision for AI as Public Infrastructure This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.retortai.com

Tom and Nate catch up on many AI policy happenings recently. California's "anti open source" 1047 bill, the senate AI roadmap, Google's search snaifu, OpenAI's normal nonsense, and reader feedback! A bit of a mailbag. Enjoy.00:00 Murky waters in AI policy00:33 The Senate AI Roadmap05:14 The Executive Branch Takes the Lead08:33 California's Senate AI Bill22:22 OpenAI's Two Audiences28:53 The Problem with OpenAI Model Spec39:50 A New World of AI RegulationA bunch of links...Data and society whitepaper: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/66465fcd83d1881b974fe099/t/664b866c9524f174acd7931c/1716225644575/24.05.18+-+AI+Shadow+Report+V4.pdfhttps://senateshadowreport.com/ California billhttps://www.hyperdimensional.co/p/california-senate-passes-sb-1047 https://legiscan.com/CA/text/SB1047/id/2999979 Data wallshttps://www.interconnects.ai/p/the-data-wall Interconnects Merchhttps://interconnects.myshopify.com/ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.retortai.com