Fire in the Southwest Series, Ep. 3: Integrating Indigenous Knowledge into Western Fire Management with Jon Martin

In our sixth and final episode of the Fire in the Southwest Series—sponsored by the Southwest Fire Science Consortium and the Arizona Wildfire Initiative—we explore the complex, multicultural fire histories and management dynamics in New Mexico, with State Forester and Tribal Liaison Lindsey Quam.New Mexico's recent relationship with fire has been fraught with distrust in the aftermath of the 2022 Calf Canyon Hermits Peak Fire, which started from an escaped prescribed fire and an escaped pile burn. Lindsey's career has been bookended by such events, having started his career in Los Alamos, NM in the aftermath of the 2000 Cerro Grande Fire, which also started as an escaped prescribed fire. This has allowed him to witness first hand how public trust has ebbed and flowed around the use of prescribed fire. It's also presented opportunities for him to help shape and better understand the many mixed emotions New Mexicans have around this topic.Lindsey spoke to how the intersecting cultures and management values across New Mexico—including Indigenous peoples, the Hispanic population and, well, white people—presents challenges but also opportunities in trying to extoll the merits of prescribed fire."There’s no dispute amongst native New Mexicans who live off the land—there is a recognition that fire is important and necessary, but there's also a fear," Lindsey, who is himself a member of the Zuni Pueblo, said.Lindsey also shared how his agency is scaling up forest treatments through collaboration, and establishing priority landscapes to implement landscape-scale resilience projects.If you'd like to learn more about acequias, which are mentioned in this episode, I can't recommend Patrick Lohmann's reporting enough. He is a journalist with Source NM and did some stellar reporting on the impacts of the Calf Canyon Hermits Peak Fire on acequias and traditional (and often rural) communities in northern New Mexico. 

For our fifth episode of the the Fire in the Southwest Series, we're talking managed wildfires, which has a number of alter egos depending on who you talk to in the wildfire world, some of which include "wildland fire use" or "managing wildfires for resource benefit".Dr. Jose "Pepe" Iniguez, a research ecologist at the Rocky Mountain Research Station, is our fearless leader on this journey through the fraught, occasionally contentious world of managed fire. Pepe has had a long career studying wildfire impacts in forested landscapes while building a better understanding of how our public lands have been shaped by disturbances like wildfire. His takeaway? We can't effectively manage forests at the landscape scale without the help of wildfires, and managed fire is the most feasible answer to the question of how we reach "scale" in our ability to build landscape resilience.In short, managed fires are often lightning-caused wildfires that are determined to be burning in an area that is not likely to impact nearby communities, infrastructure, watersheds etc. As such, they are not managed with "full suppression" as the main priority. They are heavily monitored by ground resources (if the fire is accessible) and aircraft, though on occasion these fires become "wildfires for resource benefit" merely because there aren't enough resources to attend to them. See: the 2021 fire season in California. In many cases, these types of fires burn in wilderness areas where fire suppression can be extremely difficult because of a lack of access, and which is made all the more difficult by designations that disallow the use of things like chainsaws and helicopters. Want more information about managed fire? Check out this fact sheet from our sponsor for this episode, the Southwest Fire Science Consortium. This recent blog post from the Fire Adapted Communities Learning Network is also very much worth the read if you're hungry for more context around managed fire. This blog was  written by a recent guest of the podcast, Zander Evans from the Forest Stewards Guild. A huge thank you to both the Southwest Fire Science Consortium and the Arizona Wildfire Initiative for supporting this episode and all of the other episodes from our Fire in the Southwest Series. Timestamps: 00:00 - Episode Start 01:31 - Pepe's Background 07:56 - 1996 Fires11:04 - The Early Days Of Managed Fire 14:01 - Thinning Versus Fire, Thinning PLUS Fire16:00 - Prescribed Fire Scales As A Tool 17:40 - Pepe's View On Managed Fire 19:48 - Lessons Learned with Managed Fire22:24 - The Benefit of Starting Small in Building A Managed Fire Program 25:24 - Experimental Forests 28:27 - Hotshot Crews Work On the Long Valley Experimental Forest 30:47 - Smaller, More Local Incident Management Teams Often Work Better 32:56 - Social Implications Of Managed Fires 35:29 - Thoughts on Improving Public Perception of Managed Fires  38:30 - Prescribed Fire and Managed Fire Have Different Liabilities40:06 - Do We Need A Fire Influencer? Pepe suggests Britney Spears. 41:37 - The Work of the Southwest Fire Consortium 49:50 - Episode End

If you've found yourself wondering "where the heck is the aircraft?" while watching a fire burn near you, this is the episode for you.Guest Matt Lynde—a helicopter operations specialist for the Forest Service's Regional Office in California—gave us a run-down on why some fires have huge airshows and others have almost none, and even tackled a few common misconceptions about the use of aircraft in fighting wildfires. Among these misconceptions is the idea that aircraft put fires out and that if you don't see aircraft on a fire, that means it's not a high priority for fire managers. As Matt explains in this episode, there's a ton that goes into the decisions on where aircraft goes and when, and noted how challenging it is to prioritize certain fires over others during big fire seasons when resources are limited.Matt also spoke about his career as a helicopter coordinator, and how he climbed the ranks from being on engines and helitack for the Forest Service early in his career to finding an interest in aerial supervision and coordination later in his career. If you have an interest in working on the aerial side of things within the Forest Service, this is a good episode for you.This episode of Life with Fire was created in conjunction with Region Five of the Forest Service, for a project that explores some of the common public misconceptions about aerial firefighting. The full Storymap can be found here. Timestamps: 00:00 - Episode Introduction05:07 - Matt's Introduction And Background 06:51 - Helicopter Coordinator Position Details08:38 - Matt's Initial Interest In Aviation 10:22 - Changes In Air Attack 12:19 -  Safety Procedures And Risk Factors of Aerial Firefighting14:45 - Misconceptions About Aircraft Firefighting17:36 - Benefits Of Helicopter Coordination18:53 - Fire Retardant Use—Benefits and Limitations20:14 - How Aircraft Supports Firefighters On The Ground 23:32 - Other Limitations To Fighting Fire With Aircraft 25:06 - What Factors Inform Availability of Aerial Support 28:02 - Lack Of Resources Problem 30:03 - Outro 

With fire season escalating across the West this week, many people are downloading Watch Duty App for the first time. But what is Watch Duty all about? Why was it created? Where does their information come from? What do agency employees think about it?We spoke to Watch Duty CEO John Mills about the Watch Duty app as well as fire technology more broadly, and gave him a chance to respond to some listener questions from PIOs, wildland firefighters, community resilience experts and others in the Life with Fire community. His responses are about as no-BS as they come, and he provided an honest assessment of where the app is currently and where he'd like it to be in the near and far-off future. A few things they're adding in the near future include a version of the app just for first responders, which John speaks to in the episode, while in the longer term he's looking forward to exploring how Watch Duty can provide more opportunities for community education about wildfire and wildfire resilience. Timestamps: 07:33 - Interview starts, John explains his background in Silicon Valley10:10 - The Beginnings Of Watch Duty 12:12 - John's experiences of the Walbridge Fire 13:21 - Watch Duty's Functionality 16:20 - How they find reporters/contributors for Watch Duty 18:06 - Concerns and Questions from PIOs/PAOs 21:07 - Gaining Trust And Users 22:25 - The Future of The App25:01 - Upcoming Watch Duty Features   26:48 - Public Education Features 29:40 - Watch Duty's Role In The Fire Tech Space 34:48 - John's Thoughts On the Fire Tech Industry 42:39 - Watch Duty's Main Benefit Is Efficiency 47:16 - How People Use Watch Duty 49:50 - The Reason They Don't Allow Comments on Watch Duty50:49 - Outro 

Welcome to episode four of our Fire in the Southwest Series, supported by the Southwest Fire Science Consortium as well as the Arizona Wildfire Initiative! Today's guest, Zander Evans, is the executive director of the Forest Stewards Guild, which has a mission of promoting ecologically-, economically-, and socially-responsible forestry as a means of sustaining the integrity of forest ecosystems and the human communities dependent upon them. Based in Santa Fe, New Mexico, the Guild's team—including Zander, who has worked there for over 17 years—has seen the first-hand impacts of some of the most destructive wildfires of the last two decades, including the 2022 Calf Canyon/Hermits Peak Fire.Zander and Amanda spoke about the role of the Forest Stewards Guild in helping provide more capacity for often resource-strapped agencies, as well as how their roles are shifting with the legacy and rise in megafires like the CC/HP Fire. We discussed the Guild's objective to connect work on the ground to policy, while creating a network of land stewards that can learn from each other and share resources, lessons learned and other critical information that can help others dealing with similar issues across the country. We covered a lot in this episode, and in classic form, Amanda asked many difficult-to-answer questions that Zander did a great job of tackling—including questions about trauma-informed community engagement, how to continue to get good work done within a legacy of escaped prescribed fires and how communities can more effectively prepare for the "post-fire" piece of the resilience equation. Things mentioned in the episode:Santa Fe FireshedGoFundMe for Smokey Bear Hotshots. Many of the crew's members tragically lost their homes in the fires near Ruidoso, NM last week. They were responding to the fire when this happened. Please support if you're able! Timestamps: 07:56 - The Guild's Intersection With Wildfire Management13:38 - Engagement Practices Since Calf Canyon/Hermits Peak15:38 - Keeping Agency Folks In Same Roles/Locations Would Help Collaborative Efforts16:44 - Guild Partnership With The Forest Service19:27 - Hermits Peak Calf Canyon Fire Aftermath And Community Perception of Prescribed Fire23:57 - Zander's Recommendations For Other Fire Prone Communities26:12 - Santa Clara Pueblo Takeaways28:00 - Community Wildfire Protection Plans (CWPPs) Should Include Post Fire Element30:20 - Preplanning For Post Fire Impacts and Things To Consider In Pre Planning37:14 - Encouraging People To Go Back Outside After Experiencing Fire Trauma39:05 - The Santa Fe Fireshed and Using Watershed Concerns to Frame Management Practices44:24 - Implementation Takes Community Engagement!

Welcome to our third episode of our Fire in the Southwest series! In this episode, we spoke with Jon Martin, who is the Director of Native American Forest and Rangeland Management Programming at the Ecological Restoration Institute at Northern Arizona University. Jon spent three decades working in forestry before retiring, and now uses his extensive interagency background to find pathways that can help tribes achieve their management goals within a Western fire management framework.This topic is especially prescient right now, as the Wildfire Commission Report was explicit in its recommendations to incorporate more Indigenous knowledge into land management (see: recommendations 12, 15, 16). However, while this directive is a step in the right direction, actually accomplishing it will require overcoming significant workforce and budget constraints at the ground level, especially within tribal communities.Jon and Amanda spoke about what this integration of different management practices can look like, how to overcome those barriers, the differences between cultural and agency fire, as well as the fundamental question of whether or not the differences between cultural and agency fire can be meaningfully reconciled. Jon also provided a great example of this integration working (the San Carlos Apache Tribe's use of Crisis Strategy/Infrastructure Bill funding). Finally, we wrapped the episode up with a discussion about the nature of federal land agency employment, which all but requires employees to move locations every 3-5 years to move up in their careers. Jon spoke about how the collaborative/shared stewardship pathway that is needed to meaningfully integrate Indigenous management into Western management requires a wholesale commitment to developing interagency relationships, and how this should be a major priority moving forward. "It’s not about going out and managing forests, silvicultural prescription or even forest management," Jon said in our conversation. "It’s become all about people management, almost a social science. I think people are starting to realize that. It’s a softer approach but it’s very real.”This conversation and the rest of our Fire in the Southwest series is supported by the Southwest Fire Science Consortium, as well as the Arizona Wildfire Initiative. We're so grateful for their support! Time stamps: 06:23 - Jon's Background and Navajo Upbringing 09:42 - Northern Arizona University And Its Programs 11:51 - Native American Forest And Rangeland Management Program 13:00 - San Carlos Apache Tribe14:12 - Western Land Management Agencies Working With Tribes 15:38 - Opportunities And Funding Becoming Available To Bolster Tribal Management18:45 - Fire History and Research in the Piñon Juniper Ecosystems of the Southwest20:38 - Indigenous Fire History In Piñon Juniper Ecosystems 22:41 - Culturally Informed Management In Higher Elevation Forests 25:56 - Increasing Acknowledgement Of Cultural Burning 26:33 - Wildland Fire Management And Mitigation Report Directives for Indigenous Burning28:10 - San Carlos Apache Tribe—Wildfire Crisis Strategy Funding Leading to Tribal Management Success Story29:34 - Collaborative Efforts Require Long-Term Commitments and Relationship Building33:50 - Tribal Management Is Inherently Collaborative 34:20 - Jon's Career Wins 37:32 - End 

What is it like to watch vegetation type-conversion in real time? How are invasive grasses changing the ecology of the desert and broader Southwest? What's being done to protect and restore Southwest ponderosa pine forests? This episode with Tonto National Forest fire ecologist Mary Lata dives into the fire regimes of the Southwest, how they're changing by the year, how invasive grasses are influencing those changes, and particularly how she's beginning to see more fire in the Sonoran Desert, where fire was not historically common. We also spoke about her work within the Four Forest Restoration Project, which aims to restore and protect the significant ponderosa pine forests within the Apache-Sitgreaves, Coconino, Kaibab and Tonto national forests. Mary was preparing for a public meeting the day of our conversation and had a few great slides that she showed me during our conversation, so I've uploaded the full video of our conversation to Youtube for folks who would like some more context for the topics we discussed in the podcast. This episode and our entire series on Fire in the Southwest was made possible with support from The Southwest Fire Science Consortium  and the Arizona Wildfire Initiative.Timstamps: 01:11 - Introduction05:42 - Mary's Background and Career10:04 - Four Forest Restoration Initiative13:05 - Growing up Near Badlands National Park15:33 - Different Ecosystems and Fire Regimes of the Southwest17:19 - The Sonoran Desert19:39 - Witnessing Desert Conversion Over Time20:14 - Should Human-Caused Ignitions Be Part Of A Fire Regime?22:05 - Lightning Caused Fires Versus Human Caused Fire23:52 - Mary's Love of Nebraska27:01 - Grasslands In The Great Plains30:36 - Current Restoration Work and Climate Change Impacts on Southwest Fire Regimes34:11 - What is Assisted Migration and Can It Help The Southwest?38:04 - The Changing Role Of Disturbance In Grassland Systems39:24 - Grassification of the Sonoran Desert. 45:13 - Outro 

Welcome to the first part of our six-episode series all about the Southwest, sponsored by the Southwest Fire Science Consortium and the Arizona Wildfire Initiative!In this episode, which is serving as an introduction to the series, we spoke with Mary Stuever, who is the Cimarron District Forester for New Mexico Forestry Division. Mary has a breadth of experience across disciplines in the fire world, which is well-reflected in our conversation. She's worked in suppression, prevention, fire ecology, community education, post-fire support and public information, among other roles in her long career in fire. As such, we touched on everything from her background in suppression (and subsequent health problems from smoke exposure) to her time providing post-fire community support for the folks in Mora, NM, which was devastated by the 2022 Calf Canyon/Hermits Peak Fire. Mora was not only impacted by the fire itself, but also by subsequent flooding and debris flows that destroyed wells, choked out acequias (critical agricultural waterways) and destroyed untold homes, properties and livelihoods. Mary reflected on the situation she found herself in in such a devastating post-fire environment, including what was needed and opportunities she saw for helping other communities prepare for similar situations. She also gave us a quick Southwest Fire Ecology 101 lesson, and was all around a great guest to chat about the huge diversity of wildfire issues facing the Southwest right now. Most of the topics we spoke to will be elaborated on in greater detail in upcoming episodes, so we hope you'll stick around and listen in as we release more episodes of this series over the next six weeks. For more information on post-fire impacts in Mora, check out some of the fantastic reporting  Patrick Lohmann of Source NM did both during and after the fire.For more information about our sponsor for this series, the Southwest Fire Science Consortium, check out their website, which is chock-full of resources related to Southwest fire ecology, research, management and communications. You can learn more about the Arizona Wildfire Initiative and their great work in community outreach, science communications and fire education on their website. Timestamps: 08:55 - Role Of Fire In The Landscape10:10 - Health Issues in Wildland Firefighting12:13 - Basing Operational Decisions On Smoke Exposure14:18 - Fire Ecology of the Southwest 10123:22 - Intersecting Cultures And Fire Management in the Southwest25:34 - Ecosystem-Specific Challenges and Different Tactics For Different Landscapes27:51 - Mary's Experience Providing Post-Fire Support In Mora, NM (Following Calf Canyon/Hermits Peak)36:29 - Post-Fire Recommendations For The Southwest40:49 - Utilizing Art And Theater For Fire Education44:03 - Bringing Community Members In As Partners

The long-awaited beaver episode! In this episode, we learn about how beavers are not only champions of wildfire resilience but are also sleeper endurance athletes (climbing mountains to find new watersheds), dedicated anti-capitalists (not giving a **** about the regulatory or material concerns of humans), expert engineers (casually restoring entire watersheds) and pretty handy companions to have in our pursuit of restoring habitat and landscape resilience across the West (and beyond).Dr. Emily Fairfax and Dr. Sophie Gilbert joined us to talk about everything from nature-based climate solutions to why we should learn to better coexist with beavers to that one time Idaho Fish and Game decided to try parachuting beavers into mountain meadows in Idaho. Rest assured there were also a lot of beaver puns.Beaver's role in building fire resilience is probably one of the most requested episode topics we've had since starting the podcast in 2020. We got a pretty solid Beavers and Fire 101, but also had the chance to dig in deeper to talk about areas where beavers have made an impact in protecting structures during wildfires, how Sophie's work at Vibrant Planet is helping to prioritize areas where beavers and nature-based interventions (like beaver dam analogs) could make the biggest difference, as well as what both of their visions are for an idyllic beaver-friendly and more fire-resilient world. Also, be sure to stick around to the end of the episode where we speak about the concept of a "Stewardship Economy," or creating a world that is more supportive of community building and stewardship/restoration work that supports both resilience and community—in other words, the things we really need not only in the wildfire space but also in the broader climate/conservation etc spaces. Here are links to a few of the things mentioned throughout the episode: Beaver, Bison, Horse Book—The Traditional Knowledge and Ecology of the Northern Great PlainsEmily Fairfax's website/research. A fantastic stop-motion rendering of how beaver's change the landscape and build fire resilience (created by Emily!)Vibrant Planet's Land Tender— a multi-faceted planning and monitoring platform for treatment area prioritization, risk mapping and decision making. "Leave It To Beavers," Patagonia's Cleanest Line Blog—Amanda's story about Trout Unlimited and Northwest Youth Corps crews building BDA's in the John Day River watershed.   

Today's episode is a special one. We collaborated with the Montana Media Lab—a program of the University of Montana's School of Journalism—to help support their winter "Youth Voices" workshop, which empowers young rural and Indigenous storytellers to learn more about audio storytelling while sharing stories from their communities. This episode features five stories from high school students in Browning and Florence, Montana, all of which are centered around wildfire's presence in their communities.Story one (timestamp: 6:32) centers on the experiences of volunteer wildland firefighters on the Blackfeet (Niitsitapi) Reservation, as well as on the history of Indigenous burning on Blackfeet Nation ancestral lands. Created by: Trysten Hannon, Callie Wood and Chloe Croff. Story two (12:29) is a profile of a student's grandfather, who spoke about his experiences as a Chief Mountain hotshot back in the 70s and 80s. Created by: Amanda Andersen-Marxer and Ariel McFadyean. Episode three (16:34) focuses on the experiences of a few modern day members of the Chief Mountain Hotshots. Created by: Sierra Freedenburg and Danaia Moreno. Story four (19:49) highlights how wildfires impact wildlife, and provided an opportunity for students to speak with employees at their reservation's fish and wildlife office. Created by: Rihanna ManyWhiteHorses, Shy'lee Kittson and Bailey Gobert. Finally, story five (24:11) shows the unexpected impacts of having an incident command post pop up at your high school during a major wildfire in your area. Created by: Lily Crawford, Reese Briney and Shiloh Williams. We owe a huge thank you to the students and teachers who worked hard to make this episode possible, as well as to Mary Auld of the Montana Media Lab, who pitched and coordinated this initiative. We'd also like to thank the instructors for this project—Kathleen Shannon, Elinor Smith and JoVonne Wagner. This episode was made possible with support from the American Wildfire Experience and Mystery Ranch Backpacks. For updates on the American Wildfire Experience's 2024 Digital Storytelling Micro Grants Program, follow them on Instagram at @wildfire.experience and @thesmokeygeneration.