New Kinship

Kinship isn’t build overnight. A tree doesn’t go from a sprout to a great oak in a day or two. Relationships need to be started, watered, cultivated, and maintained.We discuss some theological turning points that have shaped our practice of friendship and community, particularly in contrast to the marriage-dominant narratives we grew up with. But we really try to get a little practical in this episode, on the actual skills that it takes to form friendships.Timestamps:00:00 Kinship Lab #800:15 Why Friendship Matters01:41 Tyler on Spiritual Family05:44 TJ on Covenant Friendship09:54 David on One Body16:30 From Theology to Skills17:57 Friendship Tiers21:29 TJ’S Practical Friendship Tools24:15 David’s College lessons on How to Love Friends28:18 Celibacy and Unmet Longings34:45 Covenant Expectations and Testing41:47 Sustaining Relationships & CommitmentsWhat do you think? Anything resonate with you?This podcast exists from the generous support from our listeners. If you would like to join the New Kin WhatsApp group to connect with us more and help keep all of our content available for free, then please sign up to support with any size regular gift through Substack—ever dollar is really helpful in helping us continue to build this work. Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Our friend Joelle joined David and Tyler this week to talk about her unexpected journey from identifying as bisexual and spending time in queer (and Christian) spaces to experiencing what she describes as the disappearance of her same-sex attraction while exploring Eastern Orthodox Christianity. They talk about social media and dating apps, attraction and lust, marriage, and how Joelle’s relationship to Pride and the queer community continues to change.Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ Timestamps(00:00) #89 - From Queer to… Queer Ally: Joelle’s Story(01:07) Joelle’s initial summary to David(03:54) Growing up evangelical, finding women on dating apps(12:21) Finding queer TikTok, coming out: “I think I’m bisexual”(17:54) Recent encounters with faith and queer sexuality(27:35) Where do you feel attraction in your body? Lust vs. attraction(31:50) The nature of attraction (to my husband, to others)(42:29) Is there a need for Pride? (Joelle’s straight coming out)—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, or support || Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship—★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (on Spotify) | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Laurie Krieg joins David, TJ, and Tyler for a practical conversation about how parents can respond when their child comes out as gay or trans. Drawing from her own story and work with parents navigating these moments, Laurie explores the fear and shame that can shape these moments and offers instead a posture of curiosity, listening, emotional steadiness, and continued conversation. We’re grateful for the way Laurie brings a lot of warmth and hard-won wisdom to the conversation.Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠★ About Our GuestLaurie Krieg is the Director of Parenting & Discipleship at The Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender. Laurie has a master’s degree in evangelism and leadership from Wheaton Graduate School. She and her husband, Matt, co-host the Hole in My Heart Podcast, co-authored An Impossible Marriage (IVP 2020), and Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World (IVP 2026). Laurie and Matt live in West Michigan with their three kids.—★ Timestamps(00:00) #88 - “When Your Kid Comes Out to You” 101, with Laurie Krieg(02:45) Laurie’s story: Faith and sexuality in conservative evangelical America(06:45) We’re seeing shifts in how (religious) parents and kids approach same-sex attraction(09:44) POV: When your kid comes out to you...(12:39) Our cultural moment: Sexuality, gender, and school education(15:51) Resources for panicking parents(23:48) What if your child HAS been pursuing same-sex relationships?(30:14) What about coming out re: pronouns and gender identities?(37:28) When your child’s life looks different than you thought...(50:20) How to contact the CenterforFaith.com—★ Send feedback, questions, comments, support || Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship—★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (on Spotify) | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Aogu Fujihashi ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

This is Part 2 from our conversation in August, so if you haven’t listened to that yet, you may want to start there. We finish our conversation about whether Side B should function more as a discernment toolkit or a confessional movement. We also explore how boundaries relate to creation and freedom (Genesis, Galatians 5), the risks of reductionism or wrongly drawn lines, and areas needing ongoing discernment.Timestamps:00:00 Kinship Lab #7 (Part 2)11:25 Truth Claims and Fruit15:57 Boundaries and Holy World-building28:58 Ambiguity and Discernment Zones45:48 Leadership Lines and FarewellAre boundaries inevitable? Can they enable “holy world-building”? Let us know your thoughts!This podcast exists from the generous support from our listeners. If you would like to join the New Kin WhatsApp group to connect with us more and help keep all of our content available for free, then please sign up to support with any size regular gift through Substack—ever dollar is really helpful in helping us continue to build this work. Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Francis is a Vietnamese-American Catholic experiencing same-sex attraction and an extremely thoughtful friend! He joined us to share about his experiences with: family conversations and coming out, discerning the priesthood, pursuing celibacy, finding support through Eden Invitation, and the creative possibilities of celibacy and rootedness. We appreciated this conversation and hope it speaks to you as well!Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ Timestamps(00:00) #87 - Discerning the Priesthood as a Vietnamese Catholic: Francis’s Story(00:16) The son of two Catholic, Vietnamese immigrants(03:37) Same-sex attraction and words in Vietnamese Catholic communities(16:34) Coming out to parents to be a “safe space” in college(23:28) My mom wanted to support me despite her theological beliefs(33:44) Processing celibacy, stability, and intimacy in relationship(40:55) Discerning seminary and a call to priesthood: Was sexuality a factor?(58:21) The gifts of same-sex attraction—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, support || Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship—★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

In follow-up to some thoughtful considerations from our friend Odessa in response to our first Kinship Lab discussion on the Future of the Side B project, we continue the conversation around a potential covenant that could bind this nascent movement together. Our particular focus is on the dynamics and risks of harm (with and without) defined boundaries.This is Part 1, so stay tuned for part 2 in September! (We are taking September off from recording.)One thing we neglected to discuss a little more was a biblical explanation for covenants and how they work in Scripture and for people today. It’s super valuable to understand the way that God builds covenant as he brings us into deeper relationship with him. Anyone have a favorite resource on this? Hop over to Substack to join the conversation!----This podcast exists from the generous support from our listeners. If you would like to join the New Kin WhatsApp group to connect with us more and help keep all of our content available for free, then please sign up to support with any size regular gift through Substack—ever dollar is really helpful in helping us continue to build this work. Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Our friend Hannah is a Brazilian-Canadian Side B Christian. She stopped by to share some reflections on how faith, family, and culture have shaped her understanding of sexuality. Also included: coming out in Latin American and North American church contexts, the value of therapy and Side B community, and the intentional friendships and practices that have sustained Hannah as she seeks a rooted, faithful life. We’re grateful for her wisdom, thoughtfulness, and curiosity.Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ Timestamps00:00 #86 - Hannah’s Story of Side B Across 3 Countries and Seasons of Life01:57 Hannah’s background, across the globe04:36 Identifying queerness in culture(s) of non-curiosity17:03 How close friendships are/aren’t different for women21:44 Coming out in a politicized climate, and therapy27:45 Hannah’s recs on helpful resources41:39 What does community look like in your future (maybe)?47:16 Walking with new friends in side A53:47 Talking queer topics with women in the church59:41 Brazilian vs. North American progress on faith/sexuality convos01:02:09 And again: Therapy!—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship—★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Shela Chan joins us to discuss her journey to faith and the research that now shapes her work at the intersection of queer theology, ethics, and social science. Drawing on her own story and doctoral research, Shela examines how theology and empirical insights can inform Christian understandings of human flourishing, belonging, and trauma while challenging the ways churches can unintentionally marginalize LGBTQ people.Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠★ About Our Guest:Shela Chan is a Ph.D. student of Theological and Social Ethics at Fordham University in New York. Her background includes mission work in Afro-Eurasia, and she holds a Master of Divinity degree from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. Her academic research focuses on holistic human development and flourishing at the intersection of sexuality and attachment theory. You can find her on Instagram @shechannnnn.—★ Timestamps(00:00) #85 - Shela Chan: Reflections on Social Science and Christian Ethics(02:17) Shela’s story: From queer liberation to finding yourself in Jesus(18:18) Post-conversion: Queer experience, spiritual growth(41:57) How we interpret the Bible determines where we end up(47:00) Can Adam and Eve be archetypes for us today?(58:15) The archetype of the eunuch and the “ideal male”—★ Links and References* The Romance of Innocent Sexuality, Geoffrey Rees (2011)* About Tim Keller’s gay brother: https://ap.org.au/2024/10/01/timothy-kellers-brother/—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Producer: Elena F. ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

As Side B Christians, we’ve done a lot of discernment around the ethics, practice, and vocation of celibacy (celibacy = practicing sexual chastity as an unmarried person), including discernment around lifelong vows of celibacy. In our own journeys, we’ve uncovered myths we’ve believed and encountered myths in our Christian communities.We argue that celibacy and mixed-orientation-marriages are included in Side B, we reject the idea that celibacy necessarily means loneliness in the kingdom of God, we challenge the view that celibacy is merely sexual repression, we explain how vows can add goods (clarity, focus, support), we critique assumptions that marriage is actually superior, we demystify superstitions regarding celibacy and sanctification, and we contend that celibacy is a public vocation worthy of communal celebration.We’d love to hear what you think after you give a listen!Key Scriptures Referenced:Matthew 19:4-5 “eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven”1 Corinthians 7:9 “it is better to marry than to burn with passion.”1 Corinthians 7:32–34 “an unmarried person is concerned about the Lord’s affairs”Matthew 12:48-50 Who are my kin but “those who do the will of my Father?”Hebrews 4:15 “tempted in every way common to man yet without sin”Matthew 6:28 “lilies of the field”Time Stamps:00:00 Welcome to Kinship Lab 500:30 Why Celibacy Came Up02:23 Myth 1: Celibacy as a Mandate05:12 Marriage Paths and Barriers07:03 Language Celibate vs Single09:54 Myth 2: Celibacy is Loneliness12:51 Single Mindedness and Freedom17:03 Myth 3: Celibacy is Repression21:07 Desire Struggle and 1 Corinthians 724:53 Marriage Is Not the Only Tool25:59 Marriage Isn’t a Fix26:24 Sexual Baggage in Marriage27:10 Myth 4: Celibacy Vows Don’t Add Anything Good33:24 Vows as Covenant Deepening36:50 Myth 5: Marriage Is Actually Better Than Celibacy40:48 Myth 6: Celibacy Vows Are a Level-Up48:40 Myth 7: Celibacy Shouldn’t Be Celebrated Like Marriage58:12 Kingdom Public Witness Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Jon-Michael Shelley, a youth pastor in Atlanta, joins David and TJ to share about his journey as a Side B Christian from a Southern Baptist upbringing into the Anglican tradition. He discussed how liturgy, community, and pastoral care shaped his healing and vocation, and how he has come to understand sexuality as an integrated part of faithful discipleship and ministry. Jon-Michael also reflected on calling, celibacy, church leadership, and why he believes Side B Christians have meaningful gifts to offer the church.Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠★ About Our GuestJon-Michael Shelley is a youth pastor and preacher in the Anglican Church of North America. He’s mentored and discipled young people in church and parachurch ministries for ten years. He has a passion for fostering rich conversations about the deep truths of Christian life among young people and inviting them into relationship with the God who made them. He can be reached via email: [email protected] or on Instagram: @jonmichaelshelley—★ Timestamps(00:00) #84 - Finding Space in the Anglican Church: Jon-Michael Shelley on Side B, Vocation, and Leadership(01:28) Jon-Michael’s story(10:07) How I ended up Anglican(15:27) Sexuality growing up: Going under the radar(24:09) Youth pastoring and parent perception in liberal secular environments(28:38) Why are you Side B?(40:28) Unique gifts in ministry as a gay man(44:55) How did you change your take on getting married?(50:13) Ordination in the ACNA?(58:50) Hopes for the Anglican church on faith/sexuality topics—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship—★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe