WiLD Conversation

What if the biggest obstacle standing in the way of your team’s performance isn’t your strategy or capital plan, but the pressure you feel to have all the answers? In this episode of The WiLD Conversation Podcast, hosts Dr. Rob McKenna and Sabeth Kapahu sit down with Jim Brown, author of The Imperfect CEO and The Imperfect Board Member, and founder of Org Health. Together, they peel back the curtain on the exhausting myth of executive perfection and confront the hidden fears leaders rarely admit out loud: What if someone else in the room has a better answer than me? Drawing from decades of work with C-suite executives and boards, Jim and Rob unpack why pretending to have it all together fractures team trust, fuels turnover, and breeds quiet disengagement.  They explore how real leadership shifts the focus away from being the "hero- doer" to building systems that embrace imperfection because extraordinary things happen when imperfect people are put together well. In this episode, they dive into: The Cost of Perfectionism: Why western corporate expectations force leaders to pretend, and how acknowledging personal brokenness creates room for others to thrive. What Leaders Hide: Examining the subconscious need to be the "answer person" and how leaders unintentionally train their teams to stay silent. The Trust-Health Dilemma: Does trust create organizational health, or does health create trust? The IKEA vs. Layoff Paradigm: The real bottom-line difference between cutting headcount for quick savings and multiplying human value. The First 20 Minutes in the Room: What Jim and Rob look for immediately when evaluating leadership dynamics without using an assessment. Stop carrying the weight alone. Tune in to discover why healthy, high-trust leadership doesn't demand flawless answers, it demands the courage to stop pretending and lead with candor. To learn more about Jim Brown click the links below:  • The Imperfect CEO – Jim Brown’s book is available now: amazon.com/dp/1637749023 • The Imperfect Board Member 20th Anniversary Edition – pre-order link: amazon.com/dp/1394336543 • Connect with Jim Brown – linkedin.com/in/authorjimbrown

Leading others well begins with the work we are willing to do within ourselves.   In this episode of the WiLD Conversation Podcast, Rob McKenna and Sabeth Kapahu sit down with Jenni Catron, leadership expert, author, speaker, and founder of The Foresight Group, for a candid conversation about the human side of leadership and what it takes to build organizations where people and performance can thrive.   Jenni shares a pivotal moment early in her career when a mentor challenged her with a truth that would reshape her understanding of leadership: “If you wanna work with people, you have to learn to love them to lead them.” That insight became the foundation for her conviction that leadership is sacred work. Every day, leaders influence the lives, stories, and experiences of the people around them. The question is not whether we will have an impact, but how we will steward that influence.   The conversation gets personal as Jenni reflects on ambition, stewardship, and the challenge of sustaining meaningful work without running at an unsustainable pace. After taking a four-week sabbatical, she returned to an unexpected wave of pressure and responsibility, prompting an honest examination of how a leader’s internal rhythms inevitably shape the experience of their team. Rob and Jenni explore what it means to lead yourself well, practice discernment, and create a way of working that is life-giving rather than draining.   From there, the conversation turns to the relationship between trust and organizational culture. Why isn't it enough to talk about values, hang them on a wall, or declare that trust matters? Jenni challenges leaders to move beyond good intentions and become intentional about building healthy cultures. That means understanding what people are actually experiencing, getting curious about blind spots, establishing clarity around how people work together, and creating a plan to move from the culture you have to the culture you want.   Together, Rob and Jenni explore why trust and culture are deeply connected but not interchangeable, why vulnerability requires discernment, and why even the most compelling vision needs a practical plan and the right people to bring it to life.   In this conversation, you'll discover: Why leadership is sacred work and how everyday influence shapes the people around us. How to pursue meaningful work without allowing urgency and ambition to dictate an unhealthy pace. Why vulnerability requires discernment about what to share, with whom, and when. How to uncover the blind spots that keep leaders from seeing their organizational culture clearly. Why trust and culture require more than words, good intentions, or values displayed on a wall. How to move from assessing your culture to intentionally building one where people can thrive and the mission can flourish.   Healthy leadership doesn't happen by accident, and neither does a healthy culture. Both require humility, self-awareness, intentional action, and a willingness to keep learning.

The Invisible Power behind Corporate Decisions Industrial-Organizational (I-O) psychology is often described as one of the most powerful guilds in corporate America that standard audiences have never heard of. While many view modern organizational development as a brand-new trend, its foundations—selection and performance management—have been quietly shaping business leaders, cultures, and strategies for decades. In this episode of the WiLD Conversation podcast, guest Scott Daviesn Founder and CEO of PointLeader joins the conversation to unpack the profound impact I-O psychology has on human systems. From determining who gets through the door to deciding what gets rewarded once they’re inside, the tools of measurement and selection carry massive responsibility. In this episode, you’ll discover: The Hidden Machinery: Why selection and performance management remain the two most influential drivers on the human side of any organization. The Weight of Measurement: How the questions we ask as scientists, leaders, and practitioners directly shape organizational outcomes and human potential. The Rigor Behind the Field: Why training in I-O psychology requires intense discipline to match the high stakes of corporate decision-making.

In this episode of The WiLD Conversation Podcast, hosts Dr. Rob McKenna and Sabeth sit down with former NFL Seattle Seahawk Jordan Babineaux. The discussion explores metacognition, how our thoughts directly drive our behaviors, and how high achievers can master their self-perception to navigate pressure and life transitions. Babineaux reflects on his journey from an undrafted Division II college athlete to a 10-year NFL veteran, sharing how mindset and action work together to build confidence. He also opens up about his post-football identity shift, executive coaching, and a pivotal lesson in leadership learned while climbing the Italian Dolomites: real leadership isn't just about reaching the summit first, it's about making sure your entire team gets there together. Key takeaways from the episode: Metacognition in Action: How shifting your interpretation of events completely alters your behavior and results. Building Confidence: Why confidence isn't an innate trait, but a direct byproduct of taking intentional action. Identity Beyond the Title: Navigating major career pivots and shedding old habits to grow into the leader you need to be today.

In this powerful episode of the WiLD Conversation Podcast, Dr. Rob McKenna sits down with Tim Neville, President and CEO of Echoing Hills, to explore what happens when an organization moves away from quick-fix leadership development and embeds human-centered growth into its core operational strategy. Starting as a camp counselor before rising to lead a statewide ministry serving over 700 individuals with intellectual and developmental disabilities, Tim shares how Echoing Hills integrated the WiLD Way to build high-trust systems from the executive level all the way to frontline caregivers. Discover how measuring trust through data, aligning top-down strategy with whole-person growth, and establishing a multi-year development system transformed their organizational culture, doubled team engagement, and created a sustainable framework that outlives any single leader. Listen in to learn how your executive team can go beyond offsite workshops, measure what lies beneath the surface, and embed the WiLD Way directly into your organization’s DNA. Key Takeaways: Succession as Trust Transfer: Why traditional succession efforts fail when they treat leadership transitions as simple role swaps rather than systemic handoffs of organizational trust. Data-Driven Culture: How measuring trust dynamically with the WiLD Trust Index provided concrete KPIs to track leadership health and organizational retention. Top-Down Cascading Impact: The power of starting whole-leader development with executive leadership before scaling it to over 100 regional and frontline leaders. The WiLD Integration: How Echoing Hills customized WiLD to craft "The Echoing Way," weaving developmental tools directly into daily operations from Day 1 onboarding.

In this episode of the WiLD Conversation Podcast Dr. Rob McKenna and Sabeth Kapahu sit down with Adam Tarnow, former CPA, leadership development expert, and author of The Fog of Work: A Simple Approach to Navigating the Complexity of Middle Management , to explore why middle managers play one of the most influential roles in building trust and shaping organizational culture. Together, they unpack the unique pressures of leading from the middle, where expectations flow down from senior leadership while the daily needs of teams rise from below. Rather than viewing middle management as a frustrating stop on the way to executive leadership, Adam and Rob reveal why this "fog" is actually the proving ground where trust is earned, character is formed, and healthy organizational culture takes root. Drawing on Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey, they challenge leaders to move beyond blame and embrace personal agency. The conversation explores how thriving organizations aren't built on flawless leaders, but on systems of repair—cultures where honest conversations, accountability, and the willingness to learn from mistakes create lasting trust. 💡 Key Leadership Takeaways Trust Is Built Through Repair, Not Perfection The healthiest organizations aren't those that avoid conflict, they're the ones that repair it well. Trust grows when leaders embrace honest feedback, acknowledge missteps, and address broken dynamics before they become cultural norms. Middle Managers Shape Organizational Culture Every Day The middle isn't just where work gets done. The middle is where culture is lived. Positioned between strategic vision and frontline execution, middle managers have a unique opportunity to translate values into everyday leadership that builds trust across the organization. Lead Through Pressure with Agency, Not Blame Pressure can tempt leaders to focus on circumstances they can't control. Lasting leadership begins when we reclaim our agency, respond with intention, and choose courage over complaint, even when the path forward feels uncertain. Whether you're a middle manager, senior executive, or emerging leader, this conversation offers practical wisdom for navigating workplace complexity, building trust under pressure, and becoming the kind of leader who shapes a healthier organizational culture from wherever you lead.

In this episode Dr. Rob McKenna sits down with longtime friend, colleague, and strategic partner Dr. Daniel Hallak, an Industrial-Organizational Psychologist and author of the new book, The Trust Circle. Together, they go "off-road" to explore how the landscape of leadership development has shifted, the deep-seated challenges of founder-led businesses, and why true human connection is the ultimate business strategy. Key Takeaways from the Conversation: Developing As You Run the Business: For mid-size and small businesses without massive corporate training budgets, leadership development isn't a classroom exercise, it happens live on the job. The strategy of the business and the growth of the individual must be dynamically married. The Power of Context and Listening: Expertise and tools only go so far. True value comes from understanding the context of where to apply that expertise, which requires leaders to prioritize deep, attentive listening over simply trying to look interesting. Loneliness as a Leadership "Check Engine Light": When a leader steps out to go first, they often find themselves standing alone. While loneliness is an inevitable crucible of leadership progress, it serves as a critical diagnostic signal that it’s time to pull into the pit stop and reconnect. The Blueprint of Connection: To combat debilitating isolation, leaders must intentionally build a "Trust Circle." Dr. Hallak breaks down the chemistry of connection into three distinct relational pillars: Stretch: People who push us and offer candid feedback. Support: People who provide emotional safety and mentoring. Strategy: People who help position us and advocate for our opportunities. "We need different people for different reasons in different seasons... Isolation does not drift into positive outcomes for people. It will break somebody. But when you get the connection you need, it acts as both an accelerant and a shield." — Dr. Daniel Hallak

In this episode of WiLD Conversation, Dr. Rob McKenna Rob and Sabeth Kapahu sit down with Matt Hangen, President and CEO of Water4, an organization radically reshaping how the world tackles the global water crisis. Moving past traditional, short-lived charity models, Matt shares how Water4 operates as a nonprofit that wholly owns for-profit water businesses in Africa. By using donations as catalytic startup capital and shifting the paradigm from "beneficiaries of charity" to "valued customers," Water4 empowers local entrepreneurs to build, scale, and maintain piped-water systems. The conversation dives deep into the "chemistry of trust," the necessity of human agency, and what happens when leaders stop viewing mistakes as fatal and start viewing individuals through the lens of inherent dignity and potential. Key Takeaways 1. The Failure of the "Communal Hand Pump" (The Charity Trap) The Problem: Traditional international aid often relies on drilling a communal hand pump in a village, expecting a volunteer committee to maintain it. When it inevitably breaks due to social friction or lack of funds, another NGO simply rolls in to drill another—leaving villages full of "broken carcasses" of aid. The Reality: 30% to 60% of traditional water projects are broken. True sustainability requires shifting away from Western-dependent aid toward market-based solutions. 2. Dignity Through Pricing & Ownership Shifting the Model: Water4 charges a market rate ($1.25 per 1,000 liters) and requires a $100 deposit for home water meters. The Psychological Shift: Charging money isn't cruel; it's the ultimate form of dignity. When people pay for a service, they transition from passive recipients of charity to active heroes of their own families. Communities that struggled to raise $300 for hand pump maintenance are now delivering bags containing $10,000 in cash to get reliable, piped systems installed. 3. Unlocking Human Agency via "Time" The Real Need: The primary crisis of water isn't just health—it's time. Women and girls spend up to 70,000 hours of their lives simply hauling water. The Economic Ripple Effect: When piped water arrives at a doorstep, it unlocks hours of free time. This single shift sparks local cottage industries: grandmothers boiling water to sell rice, young men opening motorcycle-washing bays, and the creation of hair salons and construction businesses. 4. The Customer Promise: The 3 Pillars of Trust To build unbreakable trust with their market, Matt and his team rely on a simple, non-negotiable equation: Always Safe: Testing water quality weekly (far exceeding national standards) so no one ever gets sick. Always On: A strict 24-hour repair promise, requiring teams to work late into the night if systems fail. Easy to Buy: Providing three distinct ways to pay (text, agents, or digital centers), allowing users to trust the utility so deeply they even use it as an inflation hedge. 5. Leadership: When Vices Masquerade as Virtues On a personal level, Matt opened up about the internal work required to lead a high-stakes organization: Grandiosity vs. Resilience: Leaders often view strategic mistakes as fatal because of a hidden pride. Learning to say, "Of course it didn't work out flawlessly, nobody is more surprised than me that it's working," defuses toxic pressure. The False Masks: Leaders must constantly audit their motives because over-control easily masquerades as prudence, and fear easily masquerades as responsibility.   For more info about Water4: https://www.water4.org/ For more about WiLD Leaders: https://www.wildleaders.org/    

What happens when a corporate culture prioritizes operational checklists over human character? In this dynamic episode of the WiLD Conversation Podcast, Dr. Rob McKenna and Sabeth Kapahu sit down with Benj Miller, serial entrepreneur, leadership architect, and co-founder of System and Soul. Together, they unpack a foundational leadership paradox: the constant tension between human being and human doing. Moving past traditional, box-checking corporate frameworks, this conversation reveals why organizational performance and human empathy are not opposites, but oxygen for one another. Benj opens up about his own humbling entrepreneurial failures, the distinct evolutionary leap required to move from a "renegade founder" to a "renegade leader," and how to implement an intentional strategy for your organizational culture. Tune in to discover how to scale your business operations without losing your humanity. Key Takeaways The Integration Paradox: Organizations must focus heavily on both the visible (operational systems, metrics, results) and the invisible (thinking, wellness, and human fulfillment). True organizational health only happens when the system and soul are deeply integrated. Transitioning from Founder to Leader: A "renegade founder" relies on raw energy to get an idea off the ground, but often ends up trapped in an exhausting prison of their own making. Scaled growth requires maturing into a "renegade leader" who can embrace boundaries, listen to trusted advisors, and implement a roadmap. The True Markers of Leadership Effectiveness: A leader's real-world effectiveness comes down to just two attributes: being inwardly sound (self-aware, principled, and holistically healthy) and others-focused. Vulnerability Proves Safety: High-performance cultures require safety and vulnerability, but they don't happen in a linear, comfortable order. Leaders must step out and be vulnerable first to actively prove that psychological safety exists. Clarity is Kindness: Workplace culture cannot simply be delegated away to a VP of Culture. True alignment and trust are built when leaders provide functional, clear job descriptions and explicit accountability metrics rather than superficial office perks.

What if the challenges we label as engagement problems, culture problems, leadership problems, or performance problems are actually trust problems at their core? In this episode of The WiLD Conversation Podcat, Dr. Rob McKenna and Sabeth Kapahu sit down with trust expert and researcher David Horsager to explore why trust remains the foundational driver behind organizational health, leadership influence, team performance, and human connection. David shares the story of how a late-night realization transformed his career and led to the development of the Eight Pillars of Trust, a framework now used by leaders and organizations around the world. Together, they discuss the relationship between trust and leadership development, why trust can be measured, the practical behaviors that build credibility, and what it means to cultivate trust in an age shaped by AI, uncertainty, and increasing skepticism. The conversation moves beyond theory into the deeply personal, touching on family, humility, continual learning, vulnerability, and the responsibility leaders carry to become more trustworthy themselves. This episode is a powerful reminder that trust is the leading indicator behind every outcome that matters. Key Takeaways Why most organizational challenges are trust challenges in disguise. The origin and application of David Horsager's Eight Pillars of Trust. How trust can be measured, developed, and strengthened intentionally. The connection between leadership development, culture, and trust. Why personal trust is becoming increasingly important in the age of AI. The role of humility and continual learning in trustworthy leadership. Practical ways leaders can build trust within teams and organizations.