Where Do We Go From Here?

Content note: This episode discusses sexual trauma, religious trauma, sexual violence, and spiritual abuse. Show Notes: Host EDJ speaks with Ciji Wagner, survivor and founder of Louder Than Silence, about the lasting effects of evangelical purity culture, sexual violence, and religious trauma. Ciji shares how messages about sexuality, responsibility, and silence shaped her understanding of consent, relationships, and self-blame, and why recognizing our survival responses can be an important step toward healing. Wagner introduces Louder Than Silence, an organization offering no-cost, long-term, trauma-specific peer support and resources for survivors. She discusses sexual violence, harassment, intimate partner violence, and the ways power imbalances can shape abusive experiences. The conversation also explores PTSD, the window of tolerance, and the fight, flight, freeze, and fawn responses—reminding us that these are survival strategies, not character flaws. Ciji shares her personal experience with EMDR therapy, using a bookshelf metaphor to describe how traumatic memories can be processed and placed in context. She also explains how Louder Than Silence brings together peer mentors and partner therapists to support survivors. How can we show up for someone who shares a painful experience? Ciji co-authored a book about empathy and offers a practical framework she calls the three Ps: peacefulness, presence, and the puzzle approach. Rather than centering our own discomfort, rushing to fix things, or searching for the perfect words, we can regulate our responses, remain present, and let survivors guide the support they need. From respecting someone's choices to offering consistent, tangible care, this episode invites us to rethink what healing, solidarity, and trauma-informed support can look like. Ciji Wagner Bio Ciji Wagner is a survivor and co-founder of Louder Than Silence, an organization providing trauma-specific peer support and resources for survivors. Drawing on her lived experience, she helps create spaces where survivors can find community, understanding, and support without judgment. Through her work, Wagner challenges the harmful messages of purity culture and advocates for compassionate, trauma-informed approaches to healing. Links: www.louderthansilence.org www.cijiwagner.com Empathy Impact

What happens when we begin to question the image of God we've been taught to worship?  In this episode, Dr. Christena Cleveland joins us to explore the concept that God is a Black Woman with the power to challenge white, male-centered images of the divine. Drawing on history, spirituality, and her own journey beyond traditional Christian beliefs, Dr. Christena unpacks this inclusive vision of God as a sacred figure of resistance, liberation, and nourishment. We discuss how white patriarchal religion shapes our understanding of God, bodies, and identity, and how God as a Black Woman or Black Madonna offers an alternative vision of the sacred—one that embraces Black femininity, authenticity, and the fullness of our humanity. We also explore the connections between purity culture, sexuality, and body sovereignty, asking what it means to reclaim our bodies and trust our own intuition after religious conditioning. Dr. Christena shares the spiritual significance of pilgrimages to Black Madonna sites and explains how death and rebirth can become part of our journey toward liberation. From embracing emotions like anger to reconnecting with our bodies and challenging oppressive systems, this conversation offers practical ways to embody resistance, wholeness, and spiritual freedom. Whether you're deconstructing your faith, reimagining your relationship with the divine, or seeking a more embodied and liberating spirituality, this episode invites you to discover a sacredness that makes room for all of who you are. Guest Bio: Dr. Christena Cleveland Dr. Christena Cleveland is a social psychologist, public theologian, author, and activist whose work weaves together Black liberation and the Divine Feminine. Through her exploration of the Black Madonna, she guides people of all races and genders toward freedom, wholeness, and embodied justice. She founded the Black Madonna Freedom School, which helps people uproot white patriarchal religious conditioning and cultivate intersectional Divine Feminine wisdom. Her books, God is a Black Woman and The Black Madonna: Icon of Resistance & Nourisher of Souls, explore how the Black Feminine Divine has protected, empowered, and nourished people across cultures and throughout history. An award-winning researcher and former professor at Duke University's Divinity School, Christena lives in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Learn more about her work at christenacleveland.com. Relevant links: Dr. Cleveland's Patreon learning community: https://www.patreon.com/cscleve  Dr. Cleveland's website: https://www.christenacleveland.com/   The Black Madonna Freedom School's website: https://www.blackmadonnaschool.com/  Upcoming virtual retreat on Nov. 7th: https://christenacleveland.com/bmretreat  For listeners in NYC who may want to attend her author talk on Nov 4th: https://www.cafeconlibrosbk.com/event-info/author-talk-the-black-madonna-with-dr-christena-cleveland 

*Content warning, this episode takes on the complex topic of consent in the context of recent viral content, like Dr. Joanna and James Howe's comments "[we] don't do consent … we do marriage," The Netflix Docuseries "The Death of the Pastor's Wife," and the Cornell Seven. We talk about marital rape, consent education, sexual agency, purity culture and much more. The last twenty minutes of this episode is exclusive to Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/wheredowegopod From viral claims about doing marriage rather than consent, to the history of marital rape laws, we examine how cultural and religious messages about sex can reinforce male entitlement, female duty, and the idea that commitment overrides bodily autonomy. We also discuss the role of pornography and media in shaping sexual expectations, and why healthy sexual relationships require ongoing consent, communication, trust, and attunement. We further explore what marriage has to do with consent, unpacking the harmful idea that marriage creates an automatic sexual obligation, exploring how purity culture and religious teachings can distort our understanding of consent, sexuality, and healthy relationships. We discuss how to educate children and teens to construct their own boundaries and respect the boundaries of others. We explore practical ways to teach bodily agency from an early age, model consent in everyday interactions, and have open, age-appropriate conversations about sex and relationships. We also consider how churches and faith communities can challenge harmful teachings and help foster a culture of consent, mutual respect, and sexual well-being. In this episode, we discuss: Consent versus sexual obligation in marriage How purity culture distorts our understanding of sex, consent, and gender roles Marital rape laws and changing societal attitudes toward sexual violence The influence of pornography and media on sexual expectations Why consent must be ongoing, enthusiastic, and freely given Bodily agency, boundaries, and consent education for children and teens Practical parenting strategies for modeling consent and respecting boundaries The importance of trust, communication, and attunement in sexual relationships How religious teachings and hierarchical power structures can undermine consent The role of churches and faith communities in promoting healthy sexuality and preventing sexual violence Key takeaways: Marriage is not blanket consent. Commitment never removes a person's right to say no. Consent is ongoing. It can be withdrawn at any time, including within marriage or an established relationship. Purity culture can cause lasting harm. Teachings about male entitlement, female sexual duty, and sexual shame can leave people unprepared for healthy relationships. Consent education starts in childhood. Teaching children that their bodies belong to them helps establish the foundations of bodily autonomy and respect. Healthy relationships require more than a yes. Trust, communication, mutual respect, and attunement help partners recognize and respond to one another's needs and boundaries. Faith communities can make a difference. Churches can challenge harmful sexual teachings and make consent a central part of conversations about love, relationships, and human dignity. Consent Can't Wait: www.consent.gov.au particularly https://www.consent.gov.au/infographic

Revisiting Promising Young Woman after the Cornell 7 "We know instinctively within us there's an enormous cost to telling the truth." — Devi In light of Jane Doe's allegations involving the Cornell Seven and the renewed conversation about consent, intoxication and accountability, Jessica returns to Where Do We Go From Here? to revisit a discussion she and Devi recorded in 2021. Sitting together on Jessica's couch, they watched Promising Young Woman and recorded their reactions immediately afterwards. Their conversation explores how the film exposes sexual entitlement, victim-blaming and the people and institutions that enable harm. Through Cassie's confrontations with a former friend, a university dean, a lawyer and the man who assaulted her best friend, Jessica and Devi consider: Men who offer to "help" an apparently intoxicated woman, then exploit her vulnerability. How women's drinking and sexual histories become excuses to dismiss their experiences. Whose reputation and future institutions choose to protect. The difference between appearing to be a "nice guy" and taking responsibility. The personal cost of speaking up and seeking justice. This re-release includes a new introduction and a 2026 postscript from Jessica. She reflects on institutional responsibility, the anger these conversations evoke, and why acknowledging harm never entitles someone to forgiveness or reconciliation. She also considers the work still ahead, alongside permission to take a break when it becomes overwhelming. Content note: Discussion of rape, sexual assault, victim-blaming, suicide and violence against women. This episode contains full spoilers, including the film's ending. We recommend watching the film before listening. Film: Promising Young Woman (2020) on IMDb

In this interview with Ann Russo, Ann shares her experience growing up in a queer household, exploring Christian theology, and working in religious trauma therapy. We discuss how religious shame and purity culture shape sexuality and self-worth, why autonomy, agency and boundaries matter in healing, and how sex positivity and communication support healthy relationships. We further discuss affirming religious spaces, Evangelical deconstruction, and Ann's upcoming book about religious trauma. Bio: Ann Russo, LCSW, is the founder and Clinical Director of AMR Therapy, a California-based practice providing inclusive, trauma-informed mental health care. She is dedicated to identity-affirming, culturally responsive therapy that honors clients' lived experiences, with a particular focus on LGBTQ+ and BIPOC communities and people exploring non-traditional relationships and identities. Through AMR Therapy, Ann leads a team supporting individuals, couples, families, and groups in a welcoming space where everyone can feel understood and accepted. Links: www.amrtherapy.com www.annrusso.org   Key Topics Growing up in a queer household outside purity culture Christianity, faith deconstruction, and religious trauma The impact of religious shame on sexuality and self-worth Autonomy, boundaries, and healing Sex positivity and healthy relationships Religious trauma therapy and queer-affirming faith communities

In this episode, Dr. Eric Sprankle explores the history, science, and cultural narratives surrounding masturbation. We unpack myths about Onania (or Onanism), the belief that Kellogg's cornflakes and Graham crackers were invented as masturbation deterrents, Dhat syndrome, and other attempts to vilify masturbation and even the loss of semen. We also examine how misinformation about semen, orgasm, vibrators, and sexual behavior continues to circulate through internet culture and the wellness industry. From masturbation in infancy and childhood to sexuality in older adulthood, we discuss how masturbation fits into human sexual development—and the importance of understanding the difference between private and public behavior. The conversation also explores masturbation in the context of relationships, mental health, aging, compulsivity, and moral incongruence. Along the way, we consider what distinguishes healthy sexual behavior from problematic or compulsive behavior and how comprehensive sex education can help people develop healthier, more informed relationships with their bodies and sexuality. Bio: Dr. Eric Sprankle is a professor of clinical psychology at Minnesota State University, Mankato, a licensed clinical psychologist, and an AASECT-certified sex therapist. He specializes in sexuality and sexual health and is affiliated with the Minnesota Sexual Health Institute. When he's not teaching, researching, or defending himself against accusations of devil worship and witchcraft, Eric enjoys time with his wife and their three cats. In This Episode, We Explore The history of masturbation and the origins of common myths What science tells us about masturbation and sexual development Masturbation throughout the lifespan, from fetal development and childhood to older adulthood The state of sex education in the United States and the need for comprehensive education How purity culture and religious beliefs have shaped attitudes toward masturbation The role of pseudoscience in creating fears about masturbation and sexual health Historical attitudes toward vibrators, sex toys, and female orgasm Cultural beliefs about semen and masturbation in different parts of the world Debates surrounding masturbation in Jewish and Christian traditions How internet culture and the wellness industry perpetuate sexual-health misinformation Moral incongruence, shame, and their potential effects on mental health Masturbation, relationship satisfaction, conflict, and communication The difference between addiction and compulsive sexual behavior Healthy uses of masturbation, including self-soothing and stress relief How parents and educators can talk with children about masturbation in developmentally appropriate ways

What happens to the songs that once helped shape our faith when our understanding of faith changes? In this episode, we explore the complicated relationship between worship music, deconstruction, theology, and cultural politics. We talk about why certain songs can carry enormous emotional weight—and why a song that once felt sacred can later feel painful, complicated, or even impossible to sing. Together, we consider what it means to keep listening to music created by artists or churches whose theology, politics, or actions have changed how we understand their work. We wrestle with questions about royalties, institutional support, song selection, and the ethics of participating in worship connected to communities with which we may no longer agree. We touch on artists and bands like Chris Tomlin, Amy Grant, Hillsong, DC Talk, Crowder, Switchfoot, Kari Jobe, Bethel and Elevation worship. But this conversation isn't only about deciding which songs to keep or leave behind. It's also about reclaiming music and the stories attached to it. A song can belong to more than the institution or artist who created it. It can become part of our own histories of grief, healing, faith, doubt, community, and transformation. We talk about Michael Passon's reclaiming of "Testify to Love" for the queer Christian community and explore particular ways worship music intersects with queer identity and broader cultural and political shifts. Ultimately, this episode makes space for the complexity of loving a song, questioning its origins, grieving what it once represented, and discovering what it might mean now. Mackenzie Morgon Holloway's post: https://www.facebook.com/share/p/184FPj7RoF/ Worship Documentary: https://www.safeforthewholefamilyfilm.com Rick Pidcock's book: https://a.co/d/05IFYHK8 Share your opinions and questions about this ongoing conversation: www.patreon.com/wheredowegopod.

In this episode, we sit down with Meghan Tschanz to explore her journey from evangelical purity culture and missionary work to faith deconstruction, feminist theology, and a more expansive understanding of Christianity. Meghan shares how her experiences growing up in purity culture shaped her understanding of women, sexuality, and faith—and how questioning those teachings eventually led her to examine the ways patriarchy, culture, colonialism, and power influence biblical interpretation and Christian practice. We talk about her work with marginalized women in mission contexts, including the process of confronting the harmful assumptions and systems sometimes embedded in missionary work. We grapple with female genital mutilation, as well as myths around "virginity" and they hymen. The conversation explores the role of women in Christianity, feminist approaches to biblical studies, and Meghan's evolving understanding of salvation. Rather than seeing salvation solely as something that happens after death, she describes salvation as something that we work out here and now—through liberation, justice, healing, and living in relationship with one another. This is a conversation about questioning what we've been taught, examining the cultural assumptions behind our faith, and finding new ways to imagine Christianity beyond patriarchal and restrictive interpretations. Meghan's Bio: Meghan Tschanz is a writer, speaker, former missionary, and Christian feminist passionate about gender equality, justice, and reimagining the role of feminism within the Christian faith. Her experiences working with women who had experienced trafficking, exploitation, and violence around the world challenged her understanding of faith and led her to confront the ways patriarchal beliefs can contribute to injustice. She is the host of the Faith and Feminism podcast, which explores the intersection of Christianity, feminism, justice, and the experiences of women, with the goal of reclaiming an inclusive, intersectional feminism within the Christian church. She is also the author of Women Rising: Learning to Listen, Reclaiming Our Voice, a memoir and call to action that chronicles her journey of questioning the gender roles she was taught in her evangelical upbringing and finding her voice as a Christian feminist. Through her writing and podcast, Meghan encourages Christians to challenge systems of inequality, listen to women's stories, and pursue a faith rooted in justice and gender equality. In This Episode, We Explore: The lasting impact of evangelical purity culture on women Meghan's journey of faith deconstruction and reconstruction How missionary work shaped—and challenged—her understanding of Christianity Marginalized women, mission work, and confronting white saviorism The influence of colonialism and culture on Christian missions Myths surrounding virginity and the hymen—and what medical science actually tells us Sexuality, pleasure, abstinence, and the legacy of purity culture How patriarchal interpretations of scripture have shaped the role of women in Christianity Feminist theology, rape in the Bible, and Biblical-women learning to use their intuition Myths Christians believe the Bible teaches Meghan's work in biblical studies and her forthcoming books Why Meghan continues to identify as Christian Rethinking traditional ideas about salvation and understanding salvation as a present, lived experience The future of gender equity and women's leadership in the church

God, Guns and Christian Nationalism In this episode of Where Do We Go From Here, EDJ speaks with Malynda Hale, executive director of The New Evangelicals, about growing up in a progressive African Methodist Episcopal church, encountering conservative evangelicalism for the first time in college, and finding a faith rooted in love, compassion, hope, and justice. Malynda shares how her upbringing shaped her understanding of Christianity and why she never experienced the kind of faith "deconstruction" that many former evangelicals describe. She describes the faith she grew up with as "hope-based" rather than fear-based, contrasting it with the fear-centered Christianity she encountered later in a conservative evangelical environment. A major theme of the conversation is the idea that Christians should not merely talk about the good news but should "be the good news" through the way they live, advocate for others, and engage with their communities. Malynda also discusses purity culture, Christian nationalism, gun culture, social justice advocacy, and The New Evangelicals' (TNE's) shift toward helping people reclaim and redefine their faith. She mentions the three podcasts associated with TNE: Advocacy Hour, The Tim and April Show, and The New Evangelicals Podcast. The conversation further explores Malynda's career as an actress, filmmaker, singer, and songwriter. She shares with the listeners her powerful song God and His Gun, which challenges the intersection of Christian nationalism and gun culture. Watch the video here: https://youtu.be/PszjLfSO8g4?si=zQrJ94MBCAf1PqMr Malynda's acting credits include Bull Street, in which she stars alongside Loretta Devine and Amy Madigan. She will be attending the Martha's Vineyard African American Film Festival where the film, Bull Street, was selected for screening! Watch the trailer here: https://youtu.be/-CmA1z0mwIQ?si=lTWdYbas3qAFcOCw About Malynda Hale Malynda Hale is an actress, filmmaker, singer, songwriter, and social justice advocate. She serves as executive director of The New Evangelicals and creates content focused on faith, justice, advocacy, and contemporary cultural issues. Malynda's work includes: The New Evangelicals Podcast — one-on-one conversations covering theology, history, Christianity, and culture The Tim and April Show — conversations about current events and culture Advocacy Hour — practical conversations with people and organizations doing grassroots advocacy and social justice work TNE Connect — The New Evangelicals' online community, including free resources and courses #WeNeedToTalk — Malynda's Substack, where she writes about faith, justice, and culture

EDJ shares a podcast update, setting expectations for the month of September and going forward.