Larry Mestel on What Makes a Song Worth Millions

I sat down with Primary Wave CEO Larry at the Trapital Summit. When Larry started Primary Wave in 2006, the company had roughly $60 million to invest. Twenty years later, Primary Wave raised a record $2.2 billion fund dedicated. It has partnered with the estates and catalogs of Whitney Houston, Prince, Bob Marley, James Brown, Luther Vandross, and more.Larry and I talked about how Primary Wave evaluates music rights, recent acquisitions, the rise of capital in the space, the criticism that the firm has given, and more. CHAPTERS 07:53 What makes a music catalog valuable11:38 Active vs. passive management12:16 Whitney Houston, Prince, and other estates16:36 Why Primary Wave acquired Kobalt23:09 The future of music rights valuations This conversation was recorded live at Trapital Summit 2026 in Los Angeles. Listen here: Spotify | Apple Podcasts | YouTube | Overcast Links mentioned: Primary Wave Music Primary Wave’s acquisition of Kobalt Primary Wave’s $2.2 billion Music IP Fund IV Trapital Summit 2026 Why Investors Are Looking Beyond Iconic Music Catalogs — Trapital’s conversation with Flexpoint Ford’s Mike Morris Presented by Chartmetric

The third annual Trapital Summit is officially in the books. We are joined by MIdiA Research's Tati Cirisano to look back on what happened in Los Angeles, from the standout moments on stage to the conversations that continued throughout the room. We break down the ideas that sparked the most discussion, the biggest takeaways from the day, and what the Summit revealed about where music, media, entertainment, and finance are headed next. We also reflect on how the event has grown over the past three years and preview the Summit conversations coming soon to the podcast. CHAPTERS 01:51 Entertainment Convergence04:15 Platforms vs. Artists06:14 Suno’s Major Label Deals08:56 Netflix and Music14:40 Finance vs. Artist Development16:53 Merch and Fandom18:19 KevOnStage’s Business Model SPONSORSChartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week. Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your music on Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, and more TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.

In our final bold prediction before Trapital Summit, Guillaume de Chalendar, Executive Vice President and Head of Media and Entertainment Banking at Banc of California, joins us to discuss the growing wave of capital entering the music industry. Guillaume explains why artists and rights holders may borrow against their catalogs instead of selling them, along with the risks of overleveraging valuable music assets. We break down lender rights, foreclosure risk, capital stacks, rising loan-to-value ratios, and why choosing the right lender and advisors matters more than ever. Join us at Trapital Summit on September 15:https://www.trapital.com/summit/2026 CHAPTERS 02:22 Capital Influx02:43 Catalog Loans03:22 Foreclosure Risk06:12 Banks vs. New Lenders06:40 Sell, Borrow, or Stack?08:23 Music ABS Growth11:08Trapital Summit SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your music on Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, and more TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.

AI music’s legal landscape is getting more complicated. We break down three questions at the center of the debate: whether AI can learn from copyrighted work, how companies obtain training data, and whether AI-generated outputs compete with original music. Then, Vydia co-president Jenna Gaudio and NVIDIA’s Shari Reich share bold predictions about context-aware listening and how AI could unlock the value of existing music catalogs. Trapital Summit 2026 is happening on Tuesday, September 15 in Los Angeles. Get your tickets here: https://www.trapital.com/summit/2026 CHAPTERS 02:52 Three Copyright Questions 08:12 Why AI Firms Still License 10:54 Trapital Summit 13:24 Jenna Gaudio’s Prediction 18:45 Context-Aware Listening 21:57 Rights and Infrastructure 23:44 Shari Reich’s Prediction 25:27 Unlocking Music Catalogs 27:12 AI as a Tool 30:49 Catalog Is the New Content SPONSORSChartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week. TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.

Dolly Parton’s most valuable asset wasn’t her music, it was her theme park. We kickoff the episode with an exploration of Dollywood. Then on our road to Trapital Summit, Shot Tower Capital’s Rob Law and Antwyne DeLinde joins us for bold prediction: Why AI could increase the value of human-made music, improve royalty collection, and strengthen catalog cash flows. Musixmatch Co-President Marco Paglia also predicts that, within three years, every AI-generated song will be licensed before it is created, opening the door to personalized music and entirely new revenue streams. The Trapital Summit is happening September 15 in Los Angeles. Get your ticket here:https://www.trapital.com/summit/2026 CHAPTERS 03:33 Dolly Parton’s Legacy 05:54 The Artist Wealth Funnel 08:49 AI’s Upside for Music 11:49 Predicting Catalog Cash Flow 16:23 AI and Catalog Values 19:21 Licensing Before Release 22:42 Personalized Music 26:41 Musixmatch’s AI Framework 28:47 What Needs to Change SPONSORSChartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week. Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your music on Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, and more TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.

Could music become Netflix’s next big content category? In this episode, we break down Warner Music Group CEO Robert Kyncl’s case for bringing music to Netflix, why it could give both Netflix and the music industry more leverage against YouTube, and how advertising could make the opportunity more compelling. We also explore the challenges, from licensing economics and consumer behavior to whether Netflix actually needs a full music offering. Then, on the road to Trapital Summit, Epidemic Sound’s VP, Strategic Music Partnerships, Jesper Staffas joins us for a bold prediction: traditional record labels and music companies will increasingly look like IP law firms with music divisions. CHAPTERS 04:39 Why Music Wants Netflix 09:34 The Case for Netflix 10:18 Netflix’s Ad Opportunity 13:34 Why Netflix May Pass 16:16 The Consumer Behavior Problem 21:18 Should Netflix Test Music? 25:21 Bold Prediction: Music’s Legal Future 26:01 More Lawyers Than A&Rs? 27:30 Music Licensing and Brands Get your tickets here - September 15 in LA: Trapital Summit Tickets SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your music on Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, and more TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.

The music business has changed dramatically over the past decade, especially in the independent sector. We sit down with Flexpoint Ford's Managing Director, Mike Morris, to discuss why independent music has become such an attractive investment opportunity, how fragmentation creates value, and how investors weigh catalog ownership against infrastructure, services, and technology. We also explore what makes a music investment durable in an increasingly competitive market. CHAPTERS 02:26 Why Independent Music Is Winning 03:42 Infrastructure and Artist Catalogs 05:23 Diversified Portfolios 13:49 Music’s Biggest Opportunity 17:47 Are Legacy Catalogs Overpriced? 23:34 AI and Music Investing 27:57 The Weeknd's Catalog Deal Get your tickets here - 9/15 in LA: Trapital Summit Tickets SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your music on Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, and more TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.

Jay-Z's 2026 has been a victory lap of sorts. Anniversary shows, stadium runs, and enemies put on notice. He’s focused on the music, yet less public on the business moves. But maybe that’s by design. For years, one of Jay Z’s goal was to attain more wealth and become richer. Mission accomplished, he’s the world’s richest musician. But ever since he got there, the climate has long shifted. For public figures, billionaire status is more nuanced and complex than ever before. We're joined by ESPN’s Justin Tinsley to break it all down. We discuss why Jay went "all offense" this year, how the cultural conversation around wealth turned on him, his music, Roc Nation, the Super Bowl Halftime Show, and more. After Justin’s segment, we have a bold prediction from Symphonic CEO Jorge Brea. CHAPTERS 05:13 2026 is Jay Z's "All Offense" Year 09:14 Billionaire Scrutiny and Public Image 17:12 The American Carnival 26:32 Who Will Perform at the Super Bowl in 2027? Bold Prediction: Symphonic’s Jorge Brea Trapital Summit Tickets - Get your tickets here SPONSORSChartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.

Our third annual Trapital Summit is right around the corner, live September 15 at the Sunset Room Hollywood. We're kicking off a new segment called Bold Predictions, where you’ll hear from the executives from our sponsors who made this year’s summit possible. Today we’re joined by Lucas Keller, president and founder of Milk & Honey as he explains why shrinking splits could turn songwriting into a vanity business. We’re also joined by Maurice Slade, head of music of SoundCloud, who predicts why AI will mint a new kind of creator the way that sampling once did. CHAPTERS 04:13 Bold Predictions: A New Series 04:58 Lucas Keller: The Future for Songwriters 11:47 Why The AI Threat is Overstated 17:26 Maurice Slade: The Dawn of a New Creator 22:57 When Music Becomes Self Expression Trapital Summit Tickets - Early bird pricing ends July 15 SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.

My April 2026 interview with Clive Davis (watch here or listen here) was one of his last before he passed away in June 2026. Here are my reflections on my interactions with Clive, and a few parts of his legacy that still get overlooked. You can also revisit our original Trapital episode on Clive’s career Here. CHAPTERS 04:23 Reflecting on our interview 06:03 Clive's overlooked career peak 10:03 Clive's relationship with American Idol 13:15 Clive and the Future of Music Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.