Out of the Rabbit Hole

The US first lady’s unexpected White House statement denying substantive ties to Jeffrey Epstein took everybody – including Trump – by surprise. What was behind it? The timing coincides with a series of posts from her friend and former Brazilian model Amanda Ungaro, who was deported during a bitter custody fight last year and now vowing to “take down” Melania and her “pedophile husband.” This one’s a doozy, we'll explain. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Pam Bondi is out as attorney general — and her 14-month tenure makes her the shortest timer as the nation's top lawyer since Watergate. To put it all into context, NPR’s Justice Correspondent Carrie Johnson joins Elise and Jena to discuss what’s next for the so-called “Justice” Department when it comes to the Epstein-related investigations under acting AG Todd Blanche. They discuss Bondi’s biggest missteps with the Epstein files, what’s next for DOJ, and what avenues might exist for the growing chorus of Americans who don’t want the misdeeds of the billionaire class to be shoved under the rug. Mentioned in this Episode NPR's Carrie Johnson NPR: Trump Removes Bondi as Attorney General Time: Bondi Won't Appear Before House Oversight Fox News: Todd Blanche on the Epstein Files DOJ: Dr. Larry Nassar's abuse  investigation Time: EPA Head Lee Zeldin as potential AG NYMag: Judge Jeanine Pirro as potential AG Join our Patreon community at Patreon.com/EpsteinFilesBookClub Email us anytime at eliseandjena [at] gmail dot com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How do conspiracy theories take hold, and what makes them endure? The myths around The Rothschild banking family have been around (and used as anti-semitic tropes) for hundreds of years, and the theories are still very much alive. Jeffrey Epstein claimed to work for the family, so Jena dives into the Rothschild family history before journalist Mike Rothschild (no relation) helps us understand fringe beliefs and sort out the actual conspiracy – from conspiracy theories. Mentioned in this Episode Accountant Richard Kahn testimony before House Oversight Britannica: Where do antisemitic tropes about the Rothschild family come from? Le Monde: Jeffrey Epstein’s business ties with banker Ariane de Rothschild revealed NYT: From the Court Jews’ Uneasy Heyday Stanford: Historian explores how explusions became widespread in medieval Europe Journalist Mike Rothschild Jewish Space Lasers: The Rothschilds and 200 Years of Conspiracy Theories, by Mike Rothschild Newsweek: Who are the Rothschilds, and how much are they worth today? Snopes: Fact Check - The Rothschild Family Wealth Join our Patreon community at Patreon.com/EpsteinFilesBookclub Email us anytime at eliseandjena [at] gmail dot com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The billionaires are beefing. Richest man in the world Elon Musk and LinkedIn Founder Reid Hoffman both appear many times in the Epstein files, but who was closer with the disgraced pedophile? Investigative journalist Amy Westervelt read all thousand-plus exchanges in the latest trove featuring exchanges with or about Elon Musk and shares the timeline of the Epstein-Elon friendship, the mystery of what changed the relationship’s tenor, and why the prevailing media take on Elon and Epstein is wrong. Mentioned in this Episode Amy Westervelt, investigative journalist Reuters: Edmond de Rothschild Paris offices raided in Epstein-linked probe into diplomat Politico: Wyden, DOJ spar over DEA investigation of Epstein CBS: Democrats walk out of tense Bondi closed-door hearing MSNOW: As Epstein’s longtime lawyer testifies, questions remain about what he knew Inside Higher Ed: Students want to ‘take back’ Bard Kate Manne’s open letter to the Bard President The Tufts Daily: Changes on campus after revelations about the Tisch-Epstein relationship Le Monde: French Foreign Ministry in turmoil over Fabrice Aidan AA: Hoffman and Musk debating over who went to the island and who did not DOJ: Dec 25, 2012: Elon says he wants to party on the island but is bringing Talulah and then Epstein says "the ratio on my island might make Talulah uncomfortable," and Elon replies "Ratio is not a problem for Talulah"  DOJ: Elon asking asking JE to bring a girl (blacked out, so presumably a victim) for Kimball and that "she might like Elon too"  DOJ: Epstein trying to entice Elon with "under 25" girls in NY Email us at eliseandjena [at] gmail dot com Join our Patreon community at Patreon.com/EpsteinFilesBookclub Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Over the final decade of Epstein’s life, former A-list Hollywood publicist Peggy Siegal helped him reintegrate into high society. She worked for studios with Oscar aspirations, throwing lavish parties and being an ultimate connector. But she was also working for Epstein, in a way, as he was funding her travel and keeping her close for information. Journalist Jessica Bennett, who recently profiled and spoke with Siegal, chats with Elise and Jena about what the files reveal about this relationship. Mentioned in this Episode Jessica Bennett, Journalist and Author NYMag: The Grand Dame of the Epstein Files NPR: Richard Kahn testifies he was “not aware” of Epstein crimes LAT: Andersen Auditor Details Shredding of Enron Papers Fortune: Epstein Bankrolled Epstein Mistresses Email us at eliseandjena [at] gmail [dot] com Join our Patreon community at Patreon.com/EpsteinFilesBookclub Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week, we get to the heart of the story. Philosopher Kate Manne recounts the harrowing stories of the women pseudonymed Katie Johnson and Jane Doe 4. Both say President Donald Trump sexually assaulted them when they were 13 years old. “It is plausible, though not certain, that our President is a rapist of children,” Kate Manne says. “And that is devastating.” Stick around as Kate explains the logic of misogyny at work among the Epstein network, and how all of society is hurt when male entitlement is a norm. Mentioned in this Episode NYT: ⁠Zorro Ranch investigation begins⁠ ⁠Post and Courier reporting on Jane Doe 4⁠ NPR: ⁠Justice Dept posts some of the missing documents⁠ ⁠Entitled: How Male Privilege Hurts Women⁠, by Kate Manne ⁠Down Girl: The Logic of Misogyny⁠, by Kate Manne Inside Higher Ed: ⁠More Prominent Professors Resign⁠ Japan Today: ⁠Joi Ito out at Global Startup Campus⁠ The Daily Beast: ⁠David Copperfield To End Vegas Show⁠ ⁠Kate Manne’s Substack, More To Hate⁠ Join our Patreon community at ⁠Patreon.com/EpsteinFilesBookclub⁠ Email us anytime at eliseandjena [at] gmail dot com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Lauren Sherman, who wrote the book on Les Wexner, sits down with Elise and Jena to explain why the retail billionaire from New Albany, Ohio, is such an important figure in the Epstein network. They also discuss the fashion people in the Epstein files, the unanswered questions that deserve more attention, and what it means to follow the money in this story. Mentioned in this episode: Lauren Sherman at Puck House Oversight to seek seven more transcribed interviews The Hill: Bill O'Reilly on no need to depose Hillary Clinton Hillary Clinton deposition before House Oversight Committee  WSJ: More than 40,000 Withheld Files Selling Sexy by Lauren Sherman and Chantal Fernandez Full Les Wexner deposition Former Abercrombie CEO Mike Jeffries Spectrum News: Wexner and New Albany Ohio The Cut: Which Fashion People Are In the Epstein Files?  NYMagazine: Peggy Siegal, the grande dame of the Epstein files Puck: Questions about Wexner ex-girlfriend Sharon Cohen  Join our Patreon community for bonus content Email us at eliseandjena [at] gmail.com  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Records show Jeffrey Epstein was aided by a network of doctors and dentists who treated women he employed and trafficked. After the latest headlines and fallout, we explore Karyna Shuliak, Epstein’s girlfriend and former assistant, and Dr. Harry Fisch, a celebrity urologist who liked to joke around with Epstein, Woody Allen, and who, according to the files, tried to write and shop a comedy pilot. Mentioned in this episode Bill Clinton’s testimony before House Oversight Poophole Loophole song Netflix: Jeffrey Epstein Filthy Rich Chauntae Davis on Bill Clinton NYT: Elite Doctors Served Jeffrey Epstein While Treating His ‘Girls’ People: Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie banned from royal events BBC: Paleontologist Jack Horner out at Chapman University NYT: Columbia University Dental School resignations SCMP: Karyna Shuliak married a woman WPIX: Missing dental student pulled from Hudson River Seth Herzog NYT archive on Dr. Harry Fisch Cornell Daily Sun on Weil doctors and Epstein Join our Patreon community for bonus content Email us at eliseandjena [at] gmail dot com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Journalist Vicky Ward first profiled Jeffrey Epstein for Vanity Fair in 2003 and has continued following the case since. Ward joins Elise and Jena to talk about all the unanswered questions in this ongoing scandal, how Jeffrey Epstein became wealthy in the first place, and why, after all these years, the Epstein saga won’t slow down. Mentioned in this Episode NPR: Justice Department withheld and removed some Epstein files related to Trump Roger Sollenberger Substack WSJ: DOJ To Review Whether Epstein Files Were Improperly Withheld Hillary Clinton opening statement  Mother Jones: State Department guts office combating human trafficking PBS: Clinton deposition paused over leaked photo Bill Gates admits to affairs with two Russians NYT: World Economic Forum’s Borge Brende resigns over Epstein Ties Harvard Crimson: Larry Summers leaves Harvard NYT’s running list of Epstein-related resignations or removals  Journalist Vicky Ward Ward’s 2003 Vanity Fair profile, “The Talented Mr. Epstein” Fresh Air: Excavating the Epstein Files, with Vicky Ward NYT on Leon Black and Epstein WaPo: Steven Hoffenberg, Epstein mentor, dies  Bloomberg: ‘Eva Dubin gave me your email” NBC: Epstein’s named and unnamed co-conspirators Join our Patreon community at Patreon.com/EpsteinFilesBookclub Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Long before the Epstein scandal broke, Donald Barr, former headmaster of The Dalton School (where Jeffrey Epstein taught math), wrote a 257-page novel called Space Relations. Jena is joined by writer Laura Moran for a book report on Space Relations by Donald Barr (who is also the father of former Attorney General William Barr). Moran calls it “a catastrophe of a book” and “deeply, deeply, unfortunate.”  Mentioned in this episode: BBC: What happens after Andrew’s arrest? Was This Victoria’s Secret? (Episode 4) See clips of the Les Wexner testimony  Space Relations by Donald Barr Variety: Wasserman’s earlier scandal Writer Laura Moran  NPR: The relationship between Donald Barr and William Barr Support the show and join the community at our Patreon Rate, subscribe and follow wherever you listen Write us at eliseandjena [at] gmail.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices