070- Kung Fu Panda Writer Jonathan Aibel

On this week's episode, we have music manager Dave Rose (Lit, Marcy Playground, Stryper and many many more) and we discuss his journey starting out as a bassist and what it’s like managing today vs. the pre-digital age. Tune in for so much more.Show NotesDave Rose Agency: https://www.deepsouthentertainment.com/Dave Rose on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@daverosedeepsouthDave Rose on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/daverosedeepsouth/ A Paper Orchestra on Website: https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptDave Rose:I'm so amazed that people pay me to do this. I was doing it long before I knew you could make money at it. And so the pinnacle for me is really that this continued joy of the business of musicMichael Jamin:You are listening to. What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. And today I got a special guest for you. Musicians out there. You don't deserve any of this. This is a wonderful treat for all of you. Don't say I never gave you anything. I'm here with Dave Rose from Deep South Entertainment and he is a career music manager. But Dave, first of all, welcome. I got a billion questions for you, but did you start off, are you a musician as well?Dave Rose:Thank you. Good to be here, Michael. Man, mutual admiration all the way around. This is exciting to be here. But yes, I started out as a musician. I was a, yes, I started out as a musician. I mean, yes and no, there's a story, but I became a musician out of necessity.Michael Jamin:How does that work? No one becomes, that's like the last thing you become out of necessity.Dave Rose:I know. Isn't that funny? So I was managing, and I very much put that in air quotes. Say I was a freshman in college and I had a local band decide they wanted me to be their manager. I was showing up at all their gigs and selling merchandise and unloading the van and doing all the things that I thought I could do to help. I just loved being around music. One day they said to me, would you be our manager? And I didn't know what the hell a manager was. I still don't. But they said, well, you could start by getting us some gigs. And that's not what a manager does, by the way. But that's when you're in college, that's what you do.Michael Jamin:That's not what a manager does then. Okay, you have to elaborate on that when weDave Rose:Can get into that for sure. So I got 'em 20 gigs and we had it all booked up and we're all ready to go. And we were two weeks out from the very first gig, big string of shows, playing skate ranches and pool parties and all the places that you play when you're just starting out anywhere and everywhere that'll give you room. And they came me and they said, our bass player quit and he's moving, so we need to cancel these gigs and we can no longer, we will audition new bass players later. I said, like, hell, you are, I've been watching this. It doesn't look like it's that hard to play bass, so here's what we're going to do. I'm going to cram myself in the basement with you, Mr. Guitar player, and you're going to teach me all the parts to these songs.We're going to go play these 20 shows with me as the bass player, and when we come back, you can audition bass players. That's how. And they were like, yeah, that's not how that works. I said, well, that's the way this is going to go. And so they did. I crammed myself in the basement and learned to play bass in two weeks, and it was rock and roll. It was three chord rock and roll. Wasn't real hard, but apparently I picked it up pretty easily and I played bass in a band for the next 10 years, but that should have been my first indication that I was not a musician. I learned how to play just to keep a band.Michael Jamin:But you must, if you played for 10 years, you're good enough.Dave Rose:Yeah, I mean I figured it out along the way.Michael Jamin:Wow. But then at some point you went to full-time management.Dave Rose:Yeah. Yeah. I ultimately segued into full-time management, and that was, I started this company putting out compilation CDs. That was a big thing. I started in 1995 and in the mid nineties, these sort of mix tape CDs were a big thing. And I would find local and regional bands from around the area and put 'em on this compilation CD and put it out and see what happens. But from the very first CD we put out, we had one of the biggest hits of the nineties, a song called Sex and Candy by Marcy Playground. And my intention was I would stick my band right in the middle of all these big regional bands or bands that I thought was going to be big and maybe my band would get some attention too. And I think nine bands on that first compilation got record deals accept my band. So that was kind of my moment of realizing, yeah, I'm definitely not, I'm way better on the business side of things.Michael Jamin:So then tell me then what a manager music manager does exactly if they don't get you work.Dave Rose:Sure. It's very different, I would guess, than in the film and TV business. And I would love to learn this from you, but I'm guessing in the film and TV business, the person that gets you work is the agent. Is thatMichael Jamin:Yes, the agent and not the manager and I have Right,Dave Rose:And that's what it is here. So a manager in music, I'm put it in the simplest terms, but it's like if the entire career is a wheel, the manager and the artist are in the center of that wheel. And all these spokes are things like booking agents and publicists and record labels and publishing companies and people that do film and TV music and all the accountants, the crew, all the thing, the attorneys that make the machine, the wheel turn. The manager is making sure all of those things are working. So it's sort of like being, I compare it to this, it's being the CEO of a band, but if you're,Michael Jamin:I'm sorry, go on.Dave Rose:That's all right. The band is owned by the band or the artist is owned by the, they own their company, but they retain an artist manager commission, an artist manager to manage their career.Michael Jamin:But if that band is going on tour, are you expected to go with them?Dave Rose:Only if you're in country music.Michael Jamin:Okay. Why is that?Dave Rose:It is different. Country music is one of the few genres that still very much lives and dies by the radio, and so the relationships with local radio is very important. So a manager should be there to kind of nurture those radio relationships from town to town to town. Now, if you're in rock and roll or hip hop or almost any other genre, Americana folk bluegrass, most managers do not travel with the band,Michael Jamin:But a touring manager would No,Dave Rose:A tour manager. Exactly. A tour manager does. And the tour manager is exactly, it sounds, it's the manager of the tour. So it deals with getting the bus from point A to point B and where do we park and what do I mean? It's way more than that, but it's the finance of the tour and they report to the artist manager.Michael Jamin:Now over the years, I've heard you mention this, you have a very, very big it's successful TikTok page, which is how I found you. You've managed a bunch of really big acts, right?Dave Rose:I've had some, yes. I've had a lot of, and I still do have a lot of big acts. It's been just amazing. I keep waiting for somebody to knock on my door and go, okay, gigs up. Time to get a real job.Michael Jamin:Can you share some of 'em with us?Dave Rose:Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So I got my start with Marcy Playground, and I'm still with them 26, 7 years later. But one of my first big clients was the piano player, Bruce Hornsby, who was in the Grateful Dead, and he had a bunch of hits in the eighties and nineties, but he's had a very, very unique career. He is done albums with Ricky Scaggs and Jazz Records, but Little Feat, the classic rock band of, they're just so iconic. The band Lit who had one of the biggest rock hits of the nineties, that song, my Own Worst Enemy, some of the country acts that I've worked with, Laney Wilson, who just won a Grammy, and yeah, I worked with the band six Pence, none The Richer who had the mega hit Kiss Me. And so yeah, it's been not to just, one of the bands I've been with the longest 23 years is an eighties rock band from LA called Striper. They kind of came up in the ranks with Moley Crewe and Bon Jovi and that kind world of big hair and Sunset Strip and all the things of Hollywood, but they're a Christian man. They sing about Jesus. So they're very, very different than that.Michael Jamin:At this point. Are new bands finding you or are you reaching out to them? How does that work?Dave Rose:Yeah, they usually find me at this point, I don't develop a lot of new acts anymore, mostly because I've just been doing it a long time and developing a new act from garage to Grammy is not only risky, but it's a long runway. And when you've been sort of doing it for as long as I have, and I don't mean any disrespect to anything on this, but you don't need to take that risk anymore.Michael Jamin:But it seems like on TikTok, it seems like you're talking to those people.Dave Rose:I am taking my audience on TikTok is very much the audience that is sort of just trying to figure out the next steps of a very complicated career path.Michael Jamin:But then why are you talking to them now if that's not, I assume it's because that's what you're looking for, but No,Dave Rose:Yeah, no, that's a great question. The reason I'm doing it is very pure, because it is hard to do this, and there's a lot of bad advice flying around out there. And to some extent, I wanted to get on there and level the playing field and just let people know the reality of how the business works. No, I'm not at all seeking to manage sort of startup band. I do some coaching that I'm more than willing to help them in. I'll do these 30 minute sessions where I can really, really fast track things for them, help them avoid years and years of mistakes in a very quick conversation. It's a lot like the stuff that you do in the sense that I'll meet an artist from Topeka, Kansas or wherever and how they're learning stuff that they would not learn anywhere else, only because nobody's ever told 'em.See Michael, something I think we ought to talk about at some point in here is part of why it's difficult to get a manager in the music business is because of how a manager gets paid. Okay, how did they get paid? I think that's an interesting dynamic that a lot of just, certainly a lot of people, but even a lot of artists don't know how that works. So how does that work then? Yeah, so a manager is paid by commission, so it's strictly a commission base. So if you are an artist and you go out and you play a show or you sell a T-shirt or make some sort of income, a percentage of that income is paid to your manager, includes the record deal, includes everything. It typically includes, and sort of depending on where you are in that artist's career, it includes most every aspect of their entertainment career, including what about royalties?It does include royalties, particularly if those royalties were ones that you helped them earn. If you get them a record deal and they continue to earn royalties either through radio play or whatever, you would earn a commission on that. So you're earning commissions on these revenue streams, and that's typically about 15%. So if you think about managing, like we talked about the wheel, all those different spokes in the wheel, maybe for each act that I manage, that's probably 150 decisions a day that we're making on behalf of that artist. So you can't manage a lot of acts as an individual. You can have a company like we do that manages, has managers that manage acts, but generally speaking, you can't manage a lot of acts. There's a lot that goes into a typical day of that. So the commission, if you just break it down to making a living, an artist has to be making significant money for it to be worth that manager's time to spend the bulk of their day managing their career.So when you've got an artist that's just starting out, and I want to get to why it's hard to get advice when you've got an artist that's just starting out and they're making no money and are making very little money, I don't know, 20, 30, 40, $50,000 a year, you think about that 15% of that is $5,000 a year maybe for the manager. So it's really not enough to say, I'm going to dedicate my life to you, which is really what it takes. So as a result, it's almost impossible for an artist to meet a manager. It's really hard to meet a manager. Our time is paid by commission. So that's why I get on TikTok and talk about the things I talk about because I was that bass player in a band not knowing what the hell I was doing, making every mistake under the sun. And I'm very, I don't know, very genuinely just trying to help people not make those mistakes.Michael Jamin:Now, you said something a while ago on one of your tiktoks, and I was surprised you don't come down. I thought everyone was supposed to hate Spotify and streaming because of the way, in my opinion, in my point of view, artists are being raped. I mean, that's how I see it. But you don't feel that way?Dave Rose:I don't. I mean, do I think it's a fair payment system? No, I think there's a lot of improvement that needs to happen. Part of what I think is the imbalance is the payments between an artist, a songwriter, and the record label. You see, when a song is on Spotify, those are the three main parties that sort of have to get paid a record label, an artist and a songwriter. And the songwriters are the ones that are really struggling in this time.Michael Jamin:From what I pay on what people pay on Spotify, I gladly pay double for what? I mean, I get every album I want to listen to at any time through the month, almost anything. And if I pay double, I still feel like the artists wouldn't be making not even close to what they used to make.Dave Rose:Well, yes. Again, we got to remember, there's three buckets. We're dealing with the artist, the record label, and the songwriter. And in some cases, that's the same person in all three of those buckets. If you go out and self-release a record, and you've written that record and you performed on that record, and you do millions and millions of streams on that record, you're making very respectable.Michael Jamin:I thought, again, I come at this completely ignorant. I know so little about it, but I think I saw a video by Snoop Dogg saying his album was streamed a billion times and he made 10 Sense or something.Dave Rose:That's a famous video. That video circulated a lot. And what is missed most often in that conversation is the difference in those three buckets. My gut tells me, and I don't know Snoop Dogg's complete history, but he probably does not own that recording. So a big chunk of that money that's being earned probably went to his record label, and I don't know, maybe he wrote the song, maybe he didn't, if he didn't write the song, he's missing that bucket of income, or maybe he did write this. So my gut tells me there's more to that story. SoMichael Jamin:Misunderstand this, which is fine.Dave Rose:I dunno, the full snoop do the inner workings of his business, but my gut tells me there's more to that story because I know no shortage of independent artists making a great, great living, really. But the thing that's different, and the thing that we got to think about that's different from say 2005, say 20 years ago, the biggest difference is the revenue streams now are very multiple. I mean, I met a band the other day that's doing insane six figures just on YouTube.Michael Jamin:On YouTube ad. So they put their music and they make ads on YouTube. Exactly, because they're not sellingDave Rose:It. That's right. The ad revenue is making four members a living, a very good living.Michael Jamin:See, it was my impression that, okay, so 20 years ago, a band would go on tour and after the show, they'd sell okay, merch, but they'd also sell the cd. If you want to listen to music, they sell. But now no one's going to buy that cd.Dave Rose:They do. They very much buy, well, more so they buy vinyl. The vinyl buy vinyl. And what's crazy, I was just on the phone with a head of a record label and he was talking about the rapid increase in the number of cassettes they're selling, which is crazy. It's just such a, I tell people this all the time, but you can't autograph a stream, so you're going to always need to have something that people can take home. I mean, I read the other day of all the vinyls sold only like 37% get listened to, but vinyl cells are through the roof, really. They buy the product, they get it autographed, they keep it as a collector's item, and then they stream it on Spotify.Michael Jamin:But why do you feel vinyl as opposed to a cd, which is just vinyl, but smaller and better quality? Why is that?Dave Rose:Yeah, I think CDs, I mean, also depending on the genre, certain genres are very cd, like country. People still buy CDs. If you go into a Walmart and rural America, you're going to see a lot of country in there. But yeah, I think vinyl partially because it's just big and cool to hold, andMichael Jamin:Yeah, you right, because not a lot of people have record. A lot of people don't even how to use a record like we do, butDave Rose:Yeah. Well, I mean you'd really be surprised, Michael. The vinyl industry is insanely huge.Michael Jamin:Interesting.Dave Rose:And really among kids, I mean, the kids are buying vinyl. If you go into an Urban Outfitters, which is obviously geared toward 20 somethings, they have a whole record section in there, whole vinyl section in their stores, and they sell record players at Urban Outfitters.Michael Jamin:Right, right. I always thought that was ironic. I didn't realize that they're making money that way. I know. I thought they were museum pieces.Dave Rose:Well, probably to some they are. Wow. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Now, do you specialize in any kind of genre of music or does that matter toDave Rose:You? I'm a rock and roll guy at heart, but I've done a lot of work in sort of songwriter rock. I've certainly had my share of country acts, although it's not my preferred genre, I've not done a lot in bluegrass, and I've not done a lot in hip hop, which is strange because if this is a visual thing, I'm staring at a Tupac Black behind me. So I say I don't really work in hip hop, but then I got to Tupac Black up here.Michael Jamin:I have a question for you. I don't think you're going to be able to answer this one. I don't know if there's an answer. ProbablyDave Rose:Not.Michael Jamin:So Daryl Hall has a show that I happen to catch sometimes. I think he shoots in his basement or something. You must've seen it, where he brings in friends, like eighties stars or whatever, Darryl'sDave Rose:House,Michael Jamin:Darryl's house, and he looks cool. He's got a blazer on, he's got dark glasses, and I'm like, okay, he looks cool. But then sometimes he brings in other men his age, which is whatever, 70, whatever it is, I don't know. And they're dressed and they're stars from the eighties, and they're dressed like they used to dress in the eighties. I wonder, how are aging rockstar supposed to dress? Do you have to answer this to your clients? YouDave Rose:Talk about this. Oh, yeah. We talk about, I mean, I tell artists this all the time, including my big artists. The biggest mistake you can make with a tire fashion, whatever you want to call it, is to not talk about it. You have to talk about it. A matter of fact, I recommend a band sometimes, particularly new bands, take a night and don't bring your instrument, get in a room together and talk about what you want This look to look like. It is so incredibly important and,Michael Jamin:But do you have an opinion on what it should be then? Should it stay what it was, or should it evolve?Dave Rose:I think it's interesting, like this eighties band striper that I talked about that I manage from the eighties, that it's the same guys 40 years later. Back in the day, there was a lot of hair and makeup and spandex pants and all the things that, and so no, they don't wear that anymore, and they don't wear the makeup and the teased hair, but they do an age appropriate version of that rock and roll gear and rock. ItMichael Jamin:Seems weird because the fans are coming to see their band. The fans don't want the band to age, but unfortunately the band aged.Dave Rose:Yeah.Michael Jamin:How do you give them what they want? It seems like, it seems like a really hard thing to struggle with.Dave Rose:It is. It's a tough thing. And the good ones, the ones that are really good at this, are good at sort of making fun of the, well, sort of making the audience one with them and sort of we're all aging together and this is welcome to us 40 years later. What I think we don't want is our aging rock stars to show up in sweatpants and a hoodie. We want 'em to show up at least caring and some resemblance of days gone by without being a carbon copy of that, because you shouldn't try to be,Michael Jamin:For the most part though, I imagine they're playing whatever their greatest hits, the songs that made them big, and the people, the fans, that's what they want to hear. And I imagine if I were a musician who's played the same song 30,000 times, I might get tired of this.Dave Rose:You would think, and here's what happens to a lot of them. Some do, yeah. They usually don't get tired of it. They get tired of being known only for that. There are some artists that have two or three mega hits so big you can't even compare. And as a result, there's no way for their catalog of deep catalog of hundreds of songs to sort of surface. It's why the band little feat that I worked with, they never really had a radio hit, and they always talked about the best thing that ever happened to us was never having a radio hit because we never had this super high. Instead, our fans consume our entire catalog. It's a little bit like the Grateful Dead in that sense. Grateful Dead never had this mega hit. They just had a lifestyle.Michael Jamin:Do they complain to you about this, though? Is this something they talk about?Dave Rose:Yeah, I mean, one thing that's interesting is when you're on stage and you're playing a 60, 75 minutes set or whatever, and you're playing songs from your catalog, one thing that you don't think about a lot, but when they hit that big hit, when they go into playing that big song that everybody knows of any song in that, it's almost like it's for them, it's a welcomed break in the set. Meaning when you're playing a new song, you're sort of working really hard to try to win this audience over on this new material or this unfamiliar material. So maybe if you're a rock band, you're probably moving around a little more. If you're whatever kind of band you are, you're just really giving it all to win over this crowd. But when you kick into a mega hit that they've heard a million times over, it's a moment you can just breathe.Michael Jamin:I see.Dave Rose:And go, okay, I'm good for three and a half minutes here. They're going to go nuts. No matter what we do.Michael Jamin:I would not have thought of. That's interesting you brought that up. I would not have thought it, but I would've thought it the other way around that like, oh, fuck, I got to play this again. ButDave Rose:No. Yeah, no. I do have a few artists that feel that way. One of my favorite moments in that regard was Sean Colvin. She's a kind of a folk songwriter artist, and she did end up having a big hit called Sonny Came Home, and that came out, I guess in the, I'm going to get the dates wrong, but that was a huge hit. Sonny came home and I went and saw Sean Colvin one night in concert, and she comes out on stage packed amphitheater, and she says, we're going to go ahead and play this song for those of you that just came to hear this, so you can go ahead and leave and the rest of us can have a good time.Michael Jamin:Is that what happened though?Dave Rose:That's why she opened the show when Sonny came home, and then what happened? I'm paraphrasing what she said there, but it was generally that for those of you that just came to hear the hit, let's play it. You can go about the way and sort of the implication was the rest of us who came to hear the entire catalog can now enjoy the show. DoMichael Jamin:You think people walked out? I mean,Dave Rose:Nobody left nobody. I was there. Nobody left. And that's a bold move. Yeah. I love that about her. And that's kind of the way a lot of artists feel about a big hit is like they don't dislike it. They love what it's brought to their career. They just dislike it being the only thing people may want to consume.Michael Jamin:I think about art, and you must have these conversations with your artists is like, how do you reinvent yourself on the next album when audience, your audience doesn't really want you to reinvent you. They want what they have, but if you give 'em the same, it's also like, yeah, we already have this. It seems so incredibly daunting to come up with another album that works,Dave Rose:Man. It is. And I got to say, in your world, I would think the same thing. How do you write the next episode given the audience what they want, but still keeping itMichael Jamin:Well, that's when they get mad at you. That's when they say the shows jumped the shark. Or they say, the show died four years ago. JumpDave Rose:The Shark. Is that aMichael Jamin:Term? Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. You haven't heard it. That refers to an episode of Happy Days when Henry Winkler, they put him on water skis and he had to jump a shark tank. I rememberDave Rose:That.Michael Jamin:And he was wearing a leather jacket when you saw Fonzi jumping a Shark tank in a leather jacket. You go, all right, the show is Jump a Shark.Dave Rose:Oh, I got to remember that. Oh, yeah.Michael Jamin:It's a famous term. Yeah, I worked with Henry years ago and we spoke about that.Dave Rose:Oh, really?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. It's funny.Dave Rose:What did you work on with him?Michael Jamin:It was a show called Out of Practice with Henry Winkler and Stocker Channing and Ty Burrell, and they were the three main leads, and Henry's like the sweetest man in Hollywood. But we spoke a little bit about thatDave Rose:Being a child of sort of growing up in the eighties. I'm going to be remiss if we don't at least, and I'm sorry, man, talk about asking somebody about their hit. Please tell me about Beavis and Butthead for a minute. I mean, I don't care what you tell me aboutMichael Jamin:There's, there's very little I can tell you. So I was friend, this is when they brought the show back. It's been on three times already. And the second iteration, our friends, John Altro and Dave Krinsky, they were the showrunners. They created Silicon Valley and now they're running the second beavers. But that was so they needed freelance writers. It was a really low budget thing, and they reach out to us and the money was terrible, but we just had a break in our, we were in between shows, so the timing was perfect. They said, do you want to write some Beavis? But so we pitched them maybe 10 ideas. They bought four, but that was it. I mean, that was kind of the involvement. Then we went to see Mike Judge, we went to the record session. So we'll go to the booth and we're all watching videos, and we we're literally standing over his shoulders watching music videos, just pitching jokes about what beef is, and Bud would say, and then he would go into the booth, do the voice, and come back out. That was my involvement. So it was only we because wanted, it was just a fun experience. It was not forDave Rose:Sure. Absolutely. What a, but again, I bet coming into it sort of midstream like that, what an even harder job. You've got hits. You want to give the audience what they expect, but you also want to give them what they don't expect. I mean, how you do that as an artist is hard.Michael Jamin:And do you have these conversations with your bands?Dave Rose:Absolutely. Yeah. Yes. Because the funny thing about music is none of us, if we sit down and listen to our Spotify list or whatever, and we have our catalog of music, none of us listen to one kind of music. We listen to all kinds of music, jazz and reggae and rock and whatever. We all have a mixture of taste, and depending on our mood, we want to explore that music. It's the same with artists. They don't think in one genre. They're artists. They're thinking all over the place. So it's really hard for them creatively to stay in this lane. It's why you see so many artists, I'm going to try to do a country record, or I'm going to try to do some other exploratory record, and that's okay. If you're Prince, you look like a genius. If you're Prince, if you're just starting out, you look confused. I don't know what I want to do, so I'm going to do a jazz song. So yeah, we do talk a lot about trying to stay, it's a terrible term for art, but trying to stay on brand with both your look and your sound and your music and the audience. When they go to buy a Bruce Springsteen record, they don't want to hear a jazz record. They want to hear good American rock and roll songs,Michael Jamin:But they also don't want to hear, I think you too may struggle with this. I think they got their sound, and it's like, all right, but I've already heard it.Dave Rose:They do struggle with that. Yeah, they've had a couple, and almost any act has their moment of when they look back on it, it's kind of like, what was I thinking?Michael Jamin:Right. I mean, to me, it sounds like I haven't listened to it in a while, but at one point I got an album there. I just thought it just sounded like every other, and they were amazing in the, I don't know, it seems like a very hard balancing act. How do you do this? How do you ItDave Rose:Is. It's why bands like Kiss, for example. I don't, I can't remember when. I think 20, I don't know. It was over 20 years since they recorded new music, just because they didn't want to attempt, they didn't top what they had done.Michael Jamin:I heard an interview by Cures for Fears, and they were talking about, and I didn't know this because really, I don't know the inside of music at all, but they were talking about how at one point, the album, I guess mid-career, that they were assigned a music producer and the producer kind of determined the sound. And I was, I surprised. I really thought that that's what they did. I thought they wrote all their songs and it said they were hearing songs written for them. I did not know that. I was really surprised. They are songwriters.Dave Rose:They are songwriters. And sometimes when a band or an artist hits that moment of how do we feed our fan base, but stay ahead of things, sometimes a good producer, outside writer can help move that along.Michael Jamin:On their last album, they shunned all that. They did it themselves, and I thought the album was terrific.Dave Rose:Yeah, I mean, I haven't heard it, but I've heard people say that,Michael Jamin:Oh, you haven't.Dave Rose:It's probably because they really went for the middle lane that they developed all along with their fan base. I mean, they're a brilliant act with an incredible catalog.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I mean, in the management world, at least in tv, in film, and for agents as well, it's not untypical for atypical for a writer or an actor to get to some point. Then they leave their manager or their agent, maybe they outgrow them or something happen. And how do you reconcile that?Dave Rose:Yeah, that happens all the time. In the music business, we call it the revolving door of managers and artists. I've had some come and go and come back and go,Michael Jamin:Really? Do you not take it personally then, orDave Rose:One of the things you have to do is truly not take it personally. And sometimes it's sort of like I look at it like this. If you were to own a restaurant and that restaurant grows and changes and involves a different manager, has different skill sets. We're not all graded everything. We're good at certain things. And if you happen to be at the place in your career to where you're with a manager that is good at the things you need, that's a perfect relationship. If you happen to go outside of that, then you might need someone with a different skillset. And oftentimes a manager is the first to say, I feel like I've taken you as far as I can.Let's find something new here. It's no different than a football coach or a restaurant manager or any sort of leader of a company. Sometimes for a lot of reasons, the stars align and sometimes they just don't. And if they don't, it's usually pretty recognizable to both parties. And there's very rarely, I mean, you certainly hear the stories both online and elsewhere of manager artists fallout, but by and large, I'm friends with every artist I've ever worked with, and I've never had a, I mean, I don't manage Bruce Hornsby anymore, but I just went backstage, went to his show and hung out with him after the show. And we talked about old times and had a good hang together. But there was a point in his career where I was and a point in my career where we just weren't at the same place, and I don't even mind sharing that. Yeah, please. He had been on RCA records for about 25 years, and the top brass at RCA was kind of changing, again, the revolving doors of executives at a record label, it was Tom. And so his life at RCA, his deal and relationship at RCA started to come to an end.And I was really, really, I had two other bands at RCA. I was sort of really inside the walls of RCA records at the time, and so I wasn't really best suited for the next step in his career, which was to find a new label, a New York based label. I was very much Nashville centric at that point, and it was just, we came to a place where I felt like for him to go where he needed to go, he needed somebody else, and he felt the same. AndMichael Jamin:It was, but that's another thing, because I see with my management, they have relationships at studios, and as you do have relationships and there, at the end of the day, you have your interests, and it is not like you're going to burn bridges with these studio that you have relationships with. You can only fight so much because of what you have with your other clients, right?Dave Rose:That's right. Yeah. It is probably like your business. It's a very small business at a certain level, a very small business. There's not a lot of, you're going to run into everybody again, and at some point you're going to want your act touring with their act, or you're going to want their act being featured on a record of your act. And if you burn bridges, it's just going to, I mean, I know people that do burn bridges, but it's rarely good.Michael Jamin:You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, a collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker View says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.What is then the pinnacle for, I mean, we know what the pinnacle for an artist's career would be, whatever, selling a ton of records playing the Super Bowl, whatever they aspire to do, but what's the pinnacle for your career?Dave Rose:Oh, that's a great question. Yeah, it's interesting. I was taking my son to school the other day and he said, daddy, work seems like it's really fun, is work really fun. And he's come to my office before, and I got thinking about that, and I've chosen a path that really is fun. Never, this sounds corny to say I've never felt like I've worked a day in my life, really. It just really has never felt like work. I am so amazed that people pay me to do this. I was doing it long before I knew you could make money at it. And so the pinnacle for me is really that this continued joy of the business of music.There's very few high level artists, celebrities I haven't met or come in contact with. And so none of that is really the moment for me. It's seeing an act like this band formerly that we're looking at. They're a country act. They've had four or five number one hits. They were playing in their garage in Greenville, North Carolina, small town where I grew up. I happened to just know them, and I took them to Nashville, one thing. So that's sort of what this business is for me. You see a band in a garage, and the next thing you know, they're accepting an award on stage, and it's just a beautiful feeling to know that you've helped an artist achieve those dreams.Michael Jamin:Interesting. It's interesting that that's where you take the joy in. I would think that part, you're not the one who wants that dream. You're not the one, the artist. You're not the one who wants that dream, your dream joy doing it for others.Dave Rose:I would think there's similar satisfaction in being a writer, I would think. I mean, maybe you were motivated to be on screen all the time or in front of the camera all the time, butMichael Jamin:No, not really. No, not really. But I think writers are worried about their career. I want to write this, I want to make a lot of money or whatever.Dave Rose:Yeah. Well, the money certainly an enjoyable part of it, but it's not the driving factor, and it can't be in music, so risky.Michael Jamin:But you also, I guess, arrange entertainment events,Dave Rose:Right? Oh, wow. Yeah, that's very, you did your homework. Yeah, so around the turn of the century, so I live in Raleigh, North Carolina. I'm in Nashville almost weekly, but I live in Raleigh, North Carolina, and in Raleigh, North Carolina, there are not a lot of artists management or record labels. It's a big, very creative music city, but there's not a lot of high level. So as Raleigh started to feel like they needed entertainment in their city and started thinking about amphitheaters and growth and expansion of their city, they kind of came to me saying, you've had artists play in these cities all over the country. Could you help us bring the good bad and the ugly of that to Raleigh and help us produce events? So yeah, over the past 20 years have become the kind of go-to, I produced the North Carolina State Fair and all the big festivals,Michael Jamin:But you keep it to this one region, though.Dave Rose:I do. I pretty much stay in the central, the Eastern North Carolina region. And it's funny because when bands go out on tour, I'm managing bands. I learned from Bruce Hornsby one time. I called him, I'd always check in after the show, and how did it go and whatever. And he went and played one show somewhere, and I said, how was the show? And he said, he kind of laughed while I said this, but he said, I was staring at a funnel cake sign the whole time. WhatMichael Jamin:Does that mean?Dave Rose:Funnel cakes? So you're playing this car almost like a carnival. Not that there's anything wrong with that, and there's plenty of respect in funnel cakes, but as an artist who played in the Grateful Dead Done Jazz records, not really his thing. So I kind of made a joke of always keep the funnel cake stand a little bit away from the stage, but I took all of this feedback from artists, what the backstage was like, what the stage was like, what the PA was like, what the lights were like. I took all the good, bad and the ugly from the artist, and I brought it back to my community to try to make the best concerts and events.Michael Jamin:I imagine there was a huge, not just a learning curve, but also financial risk in the beginning for you. No,Dave Rose:Yeah, I racked up a lot of credit cards.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? I mean,Dave Rose:Oh yeah.Michael Jamin:Wow.Dave Rose:Yeah. One of my, yeah, I sure did. We started this company on a credit card, and that's what got us going. We produced CDs on credit card. We racked up a lot of credit card debt hoping this would win.Michael Jamin:What do you, and it's paid off.Dave Rose:It's paid off,Michael Jamin:Right?Dave Rose:I paid it off last week.Michael Jamin:Just last week. You made a final payment, you got points for it. But what advice then, do you have for, I guess, new artists? I mean, maybe either musicians or, I dunno, artists.Dave Rose:Yeah. I think the hardest thing to do, particularly in this world of TikTok and YouTube and reels, is to really be authentically you, because it's so easy to want to try to be the person that just went viral,And that's never going to move the needle. That's never going to make a big splash. You might have a moment, I don't know if you remember, maybe three or four months ago, there was an artist on TikTok named Oliver Anthony that went massively viral. He is a bearded guy from the mountains and kind of just sang very, very pure songs, but went enormously huge. And within weeks, you've got every mountain guy with a beard trying to do the same thing. And it's really hard to not do that. When we're faced with that all the time, back in the day of Led Zeppelin, the Rolling Stones and everything else, one didn't really know what the other was doing.Michael Jamin:SoDave Rose:You went into your bubble and you created art in a way that you felt led to do, and now you're so pressured to try to be the next viral thing, and that's the hardest thing. So my advice is don't do that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. You also, it's funny because I am a fan of your tiktoks. You give such interesting, great advice. You gave one post, this was maybe half a year or maybe a year ago, I don't know. And I was like, yes, I wanted to stitch it, but I guess I just didn't have the balls. And then I forgot about it. The post you did was, I guess a lot of people come to you for advice, and they just think they can just, Hey, you pick your brain or buy you a cup of coffee cup as if your time is worth $5 an hour, because that's what coffee costs. But you handled it very gracefully and graciously, but I'm not sure. Did you get any blowback for it?Dave Rose:Yeah. You're on TikTok, the blowback key. I mean, you definitely get, but by and large, by and large, what I ended up getting is it's been beautiful actually. Ever since then, I've got a lot of artists coming to me saying, look, I'm not going to offer to buy you a cup of coffee. I know how you feel about that, but I would like 30 minutes of your time, and how would I go about doing that? That's a beautiful way, I mean, I really picked this up from an attorney one time, and I was on the three-Way call with an artist, an attorney, and myself, and the artist said to the attorney, Hey, I got this contract and I don't really have a lot of money to spend, but I was hoping you could read it over and I could buy you a cup of coffee and pick your brainMichael Jamin:On it. Yeah. What did the attorney say?Dave Rose:And the attorney said, look, I understand you mean well, but I only have two things to sell. I've got my time and my knowledge, and you have just asked for both of those things for free.Michael Jamin:Yes. That's a good way of saying it.Dave Rose:And I just thought, wow. That's right. And as a manager, that's what you have. You got your time, your knowledge, and your connections. And if you're picking my brain, you are asking for those things for free. And I don't have anything else to feed my family with, butMichael Jamin:I wonder, is it because, because people ask me the same thing, and I guess it's because some people are actually giving it to them for free. Do you thinkDave Rose:It is? Yeah. I mean, they must be, or otherwise they wouldn't be doing it, I guess.Michael Jamin:But then I wonder if you're only paying $5 for advice, and that advice is only worth $5, I mean, why would you want to take $5 advice?Dave Rose:Right, exactly. Yeah. But yeah, that's been a tough part of the music business because yeah, so thanks for noticing that. But I do think we, as a sort of service society, whether you're a screenwriter or whether you're a manager or an agent or whatever, all people really have is what's in their head and their time. And so to take that so lightly is to think that buying you lunch is going to somehow make it worthwhile. It just doesn't, not only doesn't make sense in a strange way, it's rude.Michael Jamin:Well, I don't think it's strange. I mean, I do think it's rude. Yeah, yeah.Dave Rose:But as I said, I think in that TikTok, I said, I understand you're offering to buy me something. So I understand that you're trying to be in your own way, polite, but let me just educate you. That's not a compliment to say that your time is worth a cup of coffee.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. But I appreciated that video. I really did. I was like, doDave Rose:You get a lot of people asking to pick your brain?Michael Jamin:Yes. I guess less and less, butDave Rose:You do some consulting as well, right?Michael Jamin:Well, what I did was eventually I signed up for, there's this app where you can sign up to be an expert. And so people ask me a question, sometimes it's an autoresponder, and it says, if you want to book time with Michael, you can do it. So here, a half a dozen people have booked. Everyone's asking, but no one books time. So to me, interesting. And I didn't do it because that's to make money, but I was like, well, look, if you want it, you're going to have to pay. But they don't want it bad enough to pay. So,Dave Rose:Well, it's interesting. I'm on a platform called August managers.io, and that's where I do my 30 minute consultations. And I've partially used it as a filter. It's funny, I'll get artists that go out and spend $10,000 on recording and $10,000 on video and photo shoots, and then they'll come to me and say, can I pick your brain for a cup of coffee? And I'm thinking, you have just spent $20,000 making music, and now the most important part, getting it out to the public, that's worth a cup of coffee to you. So I sort of use this platform as a filter. It's like Chemistry 1 0 1 in college. If you're willing to just invest a tiny bit to spend a little bit of time with a professional, I at least know you're serious.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That's how I see it as well. So you're weeding people out. They don't really want, yeah, I guess that's how unserious they are. If they're getting caught up on booking a half hour with me, then they don't really want,Dave Rose:I would think in your world, people want you to read their script, isMichael Jamin:That, oh, there's a lot of that, but you got to pay me way more than, I mean, here's the thing. I don't even do it, but they all want it. They want me to spend an hour and a half reading their script, another hour assembling notes, and then another hour on a phone call them giving them my notes while they get angry and defensive telling me why I'm wrong and do it for free. I mean, oh, yeah, okay. That sounds like a ball to me. But it's not about the money. The answer is no, all around. But it also exposes me to liability side because I don't want to be sued for taking someone's idea. SoDave Rose:Totally. I mean, that's a big part of the music business a lot. You'd hear about unsolicited music, and a lot of people, myself included, will not even open an email with music attached if I don't know who it is. Is itMichael Jamin:Because for liability reasons?Dave Rose:Yeah. TheyMichael Jamin:Think you're going to steal their sound or their song.Dave Rose:I think Yes. I think they do think that. And I think in the history of the music business, that has happened maybe three times. I mean, it just doesn't happen. Interesting. So it's funny that that's a topic even, I don't know if it happens in the film and TV business, but in the music business that anytime you've heard of a lawsuit of one suing the other about a sound, it's very, very rarely actual theft. Most often, there's only eight chords, and you can arrange them in only so many ways. And if you're in a genre like hip hop or country where it's in some ways a little bit of a formula in the way your pop music is that way, you write very narrow melodies and chord progressions. It's bound to your, I mean, about the a hundred thousand songs released a day, you're bound to cross paths there in a close manner. It's very rarely malicious.Michael Jamin:So then how are you listening to new music, if at all? Is it because you see an act on stage or something?Dave Rose:Yeah, no, I will listen to it if it's coming to me from a vetted source or if it's coming to me in a way that I feel. But I get a lot of just very blind emails, never met, seen, heard of the person. And one of my favorite quotes was Gene Simmons said one time, look, if I'm hearing about you for the first time from you, you're not ready.Michael Jamin:You're not ready. Interesting.Dave Rose:Because we keep our ears to the ground. I mean, I'm hearing about artists all the time. I mean, I can't go to the dentist without hearing about five new artists. People know that we work in the music business. So no matter where I go, the coffee shop, the dentist, the pizza shop, whatever, they're going to tell me about their cousin that just released a song. That's the next Beatles. So I hear about stuff, and if I hear about it from 7, 8, 9 different places, I start to know there's something there.Michael Jamin:Right. I directed Gene Simmons, by the way, on an animated show. I had to yell. NoDave Rose:Way.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah. Well, he came into the studio like a rockstar, which is what he is, of course. And then he is holding court and, Hey, dude, we're paying for this thing. And I knew I was going to get yelled at by my boss, so I had to say, Hey, gene, we're recording now. I had to tell shot him, get onto the microphone.Dave Rose:Oh, that's awesome. He is a really interesting person. I've met him a couple of times. I really am amazed by his story.Michael Jamin:That's funny. Chrissy Hy came in. My partner had to direct Chrissy, and she came in also like a rockstar into the booth, and she's smoking a cigarette and you're not supposed to with the equipment. And he asked her to put it out, and she wouldn't. And he was like, that's fine with me. Whatcha going to do?Dave Rose:I love it. She'sMichael Jamin:Chrissy Hein. She gets to do what she wants. But that's so interesting. Yeah. I get that same sometimes when people ask me a question and I wonder if you feel the same way about breaking into the business or some kind of basic thing. They leave a comment and I'm like, all you got to do is just scroll down and all my videos are labeled. You're going to find it. I wonder how bad you want it. If you feel like you have to ask me without looking. This is literally the least you have to do to find an answer nowadays.Dave Rose:I did a video recently where one of the most common questions I get is, somebody will present their music to me and they'll say, do you think I have what it takes to make it? And that is without question, the hardest question to answer because I don't know your definition of make it. And to be honest, a lot of people don't know their definition of make it. I had a band come into my office one time, they finally, they've been wanting to line up a meeting. They came in and they said, I said, so what do you guys want to do? What are you hoping to do? And they said, well, we want to be successful. You know what I mean? And I said, well, no, I don't know what you mean. Tell me what success means to you. And they said, well, we want to make a living at music.I said, well, that's good. I can have you doing that within 30 days. And they kind of looked at me like, wow. We hit the jackpot coming to this meeting, and I said, here's what we're going to do. We're going to buy you a bunch of tuxedos. You're going to learn some top 40 songs. We're going to play the wedding and corporate cover circuit, make a great living. They kind of looked at you and they were like, no, that's not what we meant. Okay, let me change that answer. We want to make a living playing our music. I said, alright. Little bit harder to do, but we can still do it. There's sports bars around the country where you set up in the corner and they don't really care what you play, your background music, but you make a pretty decent living. You'll make good tips.We're like, no, no. Lemme think about this. They thought about it for a little bit more and they said, okay, we got it. We want to be on the radio. Then one other guy spoke up and he said, playing our music. I said, okay, I got you, my friend does the Sunday night local show on the radio station. He's a friend of mine. He'll play anything I send him. I'll send him your song, he'll play it on Sunday. You will have been successful. And they like, all right. And one guy spoke up at that point and he said, I see what you're trying to do. You're trying to confuse us. I said, no, no, no. You're quite confused on your own I'm trying to do is point out that I can't help you until you know what you want. And there's no wrong answer to that. Some artists come to me and say, I want world domination. I want to be the next big, huge thing. And others simply say, I just want to make great music and I don't really care if I make a living. I just want good quality music out there.Michael Jamin:Is that right?Dave Rose:Oh yeah. PeopleMichael Jamin:Really do. But I imagine, I mean, you got to pay your bills. That's not attractive to you. Right?Dave Rose:It's not attractive to me and that's okay, but there's still a place for that in this world. But yeah, and here's the other thing. A lot of people think they want that world domination and playing arenas, but the moment we start saying things like, well, let's say a country artist came to me and they said, I want to be the biggest country star in the world. First thing out of my mouth would be, you're going to need to move to Nashville. You don't need to do that in every genre, but in country, that's a must be present To Win town, you're going to have to be in Nashville. Well, I don't really want to do that. I got this and a job and whatever. So I tell people all the time, prioritize where music is in your life. It doesn't have to be number one, but just knowing where it is will help you make decisions on what's most important. When I give advice to artists, I often ask them, do you have kids and are you married? And tell me about your personal life. The truth is, the advice I give to someone with a two month old baby at home is different than a single 21-year-old that can go out and explore the world.Michael Jamin:What do you think it is that people like me, Hollywood, what do I get? What do we get wrong about the music industry when we portray it on TV and film?Dave Rose:Oh wow. Well, it's funny because in every music based show, I used to watch the show Nashville, which was produced very well, and it was done in Nashville, so it had a lot of authenticity to it. But I think what I don't think you get it wrong, I think you have to portray it this way because that's the way TV is made. But you can go from in one episode writing a song to going on tour with Bon Jovi all within a week or two's time, what seems like a week or two's time in a film or TV show. And it's a laborious, long as you know from any aspect of entertainment, it's years before you start to take off from that runway. It's a several year runway, but I think the public as a result of just all of our short attention spans shows and even movies have to be written. So that what seems like in a couple of months, couple of weeks, sometimes you go from writing this song to touring with Beyonce.Michael Jamin:Why do you think, and I say this selfishly, I want to know for myself, why do you think the runways is so long before you take off? Why does that mean, why does it take so long?Dave Rose:Well, I think a lot of it is because writing music, like writing anything takes a lot of hours to get good at it.Michael Jamin:Okay, but let's say you got your album out and it's a great album now it's going to take years beforeDave Rose:No, no, no, no, no. It's going to take years to get that greatMichael Jamin:Album. Right. Okay.Dave Rose:Right. Once that great album is assembled and together, it can be a relatively, I mean, it can be a relatively short runway to success once that great in Nashville, there's a saying when somebody comes into me with a publisher and a publisher is someone who oversees the copyrights of songs, but when someone comes to me with a publisher and they say, how many songs have you written? No matter what the answer is, they almost always say, come back when you've written your next a hundred. Really, there's kind of an unwritten seven year rule in Nashville. You should not expect success for at least seven years after you come to townMichael Jamin:With your first album,Dave Rose:With your first set of releases. It just takes that long to get really, really top level good at this in any genre. I think, I mean, if there was a comment section on this podcast, there would be tons of people giving me the exceptions to those rules right now, which is the beauty of the music business or any entertainment. There's exceptions to that rule. There's overnight sensations, but by and large, most of the big artists had a long runway.Michael Jamin:So you're listening, if you were listening to an album by a new artist, you're thinking, okay, maybe one or two songs has got something in the rest are just not there. You're sayingDave Rose:Sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. I mean, you take a band, it's funny, that first hit, I worked with Sex and Candy, the band, Marcy Playground, between the time they rode and recorded that and it became a number one hit was four years.Michael Jamin:Okay,Dave Rose:Four years.Michael Jamin:Right. Okay. So they had the goods, but it took four years before people discovered they had the goods.Dave Rose:That's right. That was a very interesting journey. They charted on college radio and then they tried to work to regular radio. It didn't happen, and they label problems and they tried again and it finally happened. Same thing with this band, sixpence On The Richer and the song Kiss Me. They had that song Kiss Me on a Record, and it did not become a hit for another two years.Michael Jamin:Wow. Okay. So then how do they do that? Is it just touring? Is it just getting it out there? Just having people listen,Dave Rose:In the nineties it was touring. It was just getting out there and touringMichael Jamin:Even. Not today. You're saying today's it's not like that today.Dave Rose:It's not. I mean, it's some touring is one aspect of it, but the beauty of Michael, you and I would not be here talking if it were not for TikTok. And as much as I love to hate on social media platforms for all the reasons they're easy to hate on there is I tell our assist all the time. There is someone in Topeka, Kansas right now that loves what you do. You just got to find them. And if you do, there'll be fans for life. But unless you plan on touring Topeka, Kansas this week, you're not going to find 'em. So get online and postMichael Jamin:How many, I've heard numbers and I if it's true, but how many crazy, what's the word, rabid fans, do you need think a band needs before they hit critical mass?Dave Rose:Well, critical mass is a subjective term, but I say this a lot. You only need a thousand fans. And I'm talking about real fans. Fans that would give the shirt off their back fans. I'm not talking about followers,Michael Jamin:I'm notDave Rose:Talking about likes or subscribes,Michael Jamin:Right? People who open their wallet,Dave Rose:A thousand fans that consume everything you put out. That's all you need to make a great living in music.Michael Jamin:But how is that possible? Okay, so if you've had a thousand fans, they're scattered all across the country and I don't understand, how does that make you a good living? You can put it on a new album to a thousand fans. How does that make you a living?Dave Rose:I'll tell you how that is because when I was 10 years old, I had a older cousin, cousin Rick and I went to his house and he had a wall of vinyl records, more vinyl records than you could ever imagine. And he reached and he had got a new stereo and he wanted to show me the stereo, and he pulled up a Boston record, the classic rock band Boston. They had just put out their first record and he put it on the turntable and he was telling me everything he needed to tell me about Boston, and I was just mostly fascinated by the fact that of a thousand records on his wall, he picked that one to tell me about it. And from there I went and bought the record. I consumed, I bought the T-shirts, I bought this. The thing about a thousand fans is they're your marketing arms. A thousand fans are not going to keep your music close to their chest and keep it over here in the corner. They're going to tell everybody that'll possibly listen. And if you've got a fan that it gets in the car with their friends and they got three minutes to the next drive and a billion songs to choose from, they're going to choose yours. And that's going to turn those fans, those friends into fans. So it starts with a thousand core fans and you can really take over the world.Michael Jamin:I wonder, and again, I say this selfishly, I put out a book, and so this is the first venture. I've done solo like this, and so I'm curious how many, when do I go viral? How does that work for me? When do my thousand fans kick in and how does thatDave Rose:Work? I think a book is the hardest thing in the world. I've now released, I'm about to release my third book, and it is the hardest thing. God bless you. This is a great book. And by the way, everybody, I mean John Mayer endorses it. I loved your video on John Mayer,Michael Jamin:By the way.Dave Rose:I mean, that's insane. But yeah. Yeah. I hope your thousand fans, I feel like they're out thereMichael Jamin:Because you think because no one wants to read, you're sayingDave Rose:No. I think fans do want to read. I mean, do you have an audio version of this?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I have an audiobook. Yeah.Dave Rose:Yeah. So you've 'em covered whether they want to read or not. Right,Michael Jamin:Right. Interesting. Okay.Dave Rose:Did you read the book for the audio version?Michael Jamin:Perform it really? It's a performance. Yeah.Dave Rose:Yeah. Oh, cool. Yeah, I'll have to listen to that. That sounds really interesting. No, I think a thousand fans can be your marketing champions, but getting those thousand is hard. It's the equivalent of having a thousand really good friends that really care about what you do. They're passionate about your calls, your reason for doing this.Michael Jamin:But do you have any evidence to suggest that a thousand is the right number? You know what I'm saying?Dave Rose:I don't. Right. Well, I know this, there's a lot. One of the revenue streams right now for artists is things like Patreon and Patreon's a big thing for the super fan. The super fan will give you a little bit of money each month, three, five, $10 to consume a little extra insight into your life, whether that be unreleased songs or behind the scenes videos or whatever that might be.Michael Jamin:That seems hard though, but I'm sorry, go ahead.Dave Rose:If you have a thousand people willing to give you $5 a month cup of coffee back to our cupMichael Jamin:Of coffee,Dave Rose:$5 a month, that's $5,000 a month just on that one revenue stream. They're also going to consume your music. They're going to buy your T-shirts, they're going to come to your shows, but more importantly, a thousand fans can quickly turn viral into 10,000 when they're passionately telling everyone under the sun about you.Michael Jamin:You must must talk about this with your bands about shutting a Patreon, but don't they say, well, we are already posting on social media. What the hell else do we have to say behind the paywall when we're already saying everything? We're already struggling to give enough for free.Dave Rose:The thing that I'm finding is working the most is one-on-one or Experiences. For example, I have this one artist that does listening parties on their Patreon. They go on and they play their music, and they'll talk about the making of it, and they'll pause the record and they'll say, Hey, I was trying this solo and it didn't work. And these are one-on-one, and the people are shooting questions and the artist is answering them, and they're not recorded, and they happen in the moment. And so for an extra five bucks a month, you get to get inside the life of that artist, andMichael Jamin:You can put that inside Patreon. How is it being broadcast?Dave Rose:So it's being broadcast just on a Zoom, but only patrons have that link and they have a special code to get in and all that sort of stuff,Michael Jamin:And that's kind of what they're doing for $5 a month. You get basically thatDave Rose:You get experiences. Some artists, it really depends on your fan base. Some artists release a song per month. They'll write a song and release it. Got a Texas artist that I'm friends with that that's what he does. He releases a song only to his Patreon crowd once a month. He's such a prolific writer. He could probably write an album per month. So putting an extra song on Patreon that nobody else hears is,Michael Jamin:And no one else will hear that song. NobodyDave Rose:ElseMichael Jamin:Will ever. I mean, that seems almost crazy.Dave Rose:Well, I wouldn't say ever, but in some ways you can use Patreon as your vetting for what songs you should be releasing.Michael Jamin:Interesting.Dave Rose:You can put 'em out there to your thousand hardcore fans and watch which ones they really react to.Michael Jamin:Do you have a Patreon?Dave Rose:I don't personally, no. I run a lot of Patreons for artists. I don't personally have one. No,Michael Jamin:Those are all interesting ideas. Any other you? No, but I've been, here's the thing, Dave, every time I should, but I'm like, do I really want to put more on my plate? You know what I'm saying? It's putting stuff on your plate.Dave Rose:You've got a great course. I've been very much admiring your ability to put out courses, and one of the things I've liked that you've done, I've noticed, is you put out very specific topics for a pretty low amount.Michael Jamin:Well, it's free. I do these webinars that are free. Well,Dave Rose:The webinars, the free webinars are insane. I, but I would think that's got to help in the overall big picture of things. No,Michael Jamin:Maybe yes and no. Yes and no. We could talk more. Maybe we'll talk more about that off the podcast. I'll get your advice on something. Yeah, butDave Rose:You do have courses, right? I mean,Michael Jamin:I have one course. Yeah, it's a screenwriting course. Yeah. Yeah.Dave Rose:And I mean, somebody might buy that in the middle of the night and you're making money without having Yeah,Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. Which is nice. And that supports me, that allows me to do the creative things that I want to do that don't necessarily make a lot of money, but I want to do 'em. So yeah.Dave Rose:What are you working on right now that you're able to tell,Michael Jamin:Oh, well, you'reDave Rose:Able toMichael Jamin:Share? Right now it's about putting my book, getting my book out there. We're pitching an animated pilot in the next couple of weeks. Will it sell? I don't know. We'll see. And then we'll pitch a couple other shows. Will it sell? We don't know. That's how it goes.Dave Rose:I want to mention that real quick as it relates to your music audience. That's a big question. I guess somebody will write a song and send it to me and say, do you think I could sell this to another artist? Which is interesting because in music it does not work that way at all. You don't sell a song.Michael Jamin:I think you write a song. I think you could be a songwriter for somebody. So what's the difference then?Dave Rose:So when you write a song, you basically give that song to an artist, and if that artist chooses to cut it, you are in a revenue stream on that.Michael Jamin:Right? Okay. That youDave Rose:Don't sell songs. Big misconception in the music business,Michael Jamin:But I guess I'm not clear on the difference then wouldn't you send them a track and say, do you like this? And then you have to send 'em a track. They have to hear it, right?Dave Rose:Yeah. They have to hear it. And if they like it, they cut it. They don't pay you for that song. Whenever that song is played on the radio, you get a royalty stream from that, or you get a royalty streamMichael Jamin:FromDave Rose:It's spun on Spotify royalty stream from that. But the artist is not buying a song from you, and by the way, you still own that song. So you can take that song to someone else and to someone else and to someone else. That's why you have lots of different cover versions ofMichael Jamin:Oh, I see. Song. Okay, so you can get three different artists. I would've thought if you, I'm so sorry, I meant to put this on silent. Lemme this right now, I canDave Rose:Hear.Michael Jamin:Okay. I would've thought when whoever major, whatever, Taylor Swift, I dunno, maybe she probably writes all her own music, but if she didn't were to agree to record your song, I would've thought she'd say, no, it's me and me alone.Dave Rose:You can't do that. It's not the way, yeah. I mean, she can say, I'm the first one to do it. You can't let someone else do it first. But once a song, this is an interesting part of the music business, but once a song is in the public demand, once it's been released, anyone can cover it. Day Taylor Swift releases a song, you, Michael Jamin can go the very next day and record that song as long as the proper royalties are paid to her as the songwriter.Michael Jamin:Why is that not done more often then?Dave Rose:You don't even need to ask her permission. I mean, it is done. Just pop on Spotify or YouTube. If you take any song, take a Taylor Swift song and just search YouTube or search Spotify, and you're going to see hundreds of versions of that song.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. Interesting. Yeah. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Wow. See, I'm long on all this stuff. I failed. This has been a very eyeopening conversation forDave Rose:Me. Oh man. Next week I'm going to reverse the, I'm going to be asking you questions. If I had a podcast, you'd be my firstMichael Jamin:Guest. I would appreciate that. No, I would do it in a heartbeat. Dave Rose, you are, thank you so much, and I want to make sure everyone knows where they can follow you on all their social media.Dave Rose:Yeah, so the name of my company is Deep South. If you search Dave Rose Deep South on almost any, I mean, stick it in Google and that'll take you everywhere You needMichael Jamin:To go take everywhere. Go follow. I mean, go follow him. There's so much overlap, I feel between the things that we say, and yet still, I feel like I learn a lot just by listening to you and watchingDave Rose:You. Likewise, when I started following your page, I was like, wow, there is a lot of similaritiesMichael Jamin:In this business. Yeah, it's so interesting. But thank you again so much. Thank you. What a wonderful conversation. Don't go anywhere. Don't stay right there. Alright, everyone, what a great conversation we had. Go follow Dave Rose and Deep South and until Next Week, keep writing.Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/screenwriters-need-to-hear-this/exclusive-content

On this week's episode, we have actor Cynthia Mann Jamin (Friends, Ahh! Real Monsters, Angry Beavers and many many more) and we discuss her journey as an actor and director. We also talk about how the two of us met as well as what it’s like working together. Tune in for so much more.Show NotesCynthia Mann Jamin IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0542699/Cynthia Mann Jamin on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/prime-video/actor/Cynthia-Mann/amzn1.dv.gti.ca37e830-61b1-44db-8fe5-979422acb482Cynthia Mann Jamin Shop: https://www.twirlygirlshop.com/A Paper Orchestra on Website: https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptCynthia Mann Jamin:If it wasn't something that was organic for you, it would be torture trying to become this person that you think other people want to see, or you got to position yourself like this other person over here. But it really is about finding your unique voice because that's all we have.Michael Jamin:You are listening to What The Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase. And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Michael Jamin:Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode. I have a very special guest today, the very beautiful and talented, I'm going to call her Cynthia Mann, although she's now currently Cynthia Mann Jamin and she's my wife and Cynthia. I met years ago, I was a writer on a show called Just Shoot Me, and she was the guest star and she was a working actor and she worked on many shows including she was a recurring on Friends. She had, I dunno, five or so or six episodes on Friends Recurring on Veronica's Closet, Seinfeld, er Suddenly Susan Will and Grace, all those shows of the nineties, all those musty TV shows. She did almost all of them. And now she is the director and producer of my one man show as well as the audio book. So I thought a paper orchestra. So she did all of that. So I thought we would talk to her about that and about her experience working in Hollywood as well as directing and producing my audiobook for all of you people who aspire to do something similar. Hello, Cynthia.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Hi Michael.Michael Jamin:Hello. My beautiful wife. She's in the other room. We're pretending we live far apart, but actually we live very close to each other.Cynthia Mann Jamin:You could say we're roommates.Michael Jamin:This is my roommate, Cynthia. So thank you so much for doing this. Thank you, most of all for producing and directing my show. And I don't know, where do we begin? What should we start with?Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, I think it's, the thing that's interesting is people might want to know how is it working together and why do we work together?Michael Jamin:I don't have an answer for that. You're cheap labor. That's why we work. I don't have to pay you. Why is that? Why we work together?Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, it's funny because it goes all the way back to when we were first dating. I think if you want to talk about that because Go ahead. Well, we love doing projects together.Michael Jamin:Projects, we call them projects. How the Canadians say It. Project,Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, projects. And when we first met it was kind of like, well, we had this common interest of he's a writer, I'm an actor, but it's like you can't sit around all day and just write and act. So we would find common things that we like to take walks, we like to do hiking. I taught you about Run Canyon, you were running in the flats. And I'm like, what the hell are you doing? Why are you running in the flats? Why don't you run up a hill?Michael Jamin:I didn't realize you could. It was so steep. And then you said you ran it. So I said, oh, alright. I guess I could try running it. ICynthia Mann Jamin:Totally ran it. I ran it all the time. I had, I had really muscular legs. YouMichael Jamin:Did. ICynthia Mann Jamin:Know you did. Yeah. And I still do. But yeah, so we would find little things to do and I would take you around LA and get you lafy and teach you what Celestial seasoningsMichael Jamin:AndCynthia Mann Jamin:Stuff. Yes, teaMichael Jamin:Is and also Whole Foods and Mrs. Gooch's. Mrs.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Gooch's. Yeah. This is way back. WeMichael Jamin:Would go to all this. She didn't approve of the supermarkets that I went to. So youCynthia Mann Jamin:Can go in there. I'm not going to get my food there you there though.Michael Jamin:And so many ways You helped me a lot with art because you are an artist. You were a starving artist when I met you.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Oh yes. Yeah. Well, barely getting by. I would say would barely getting by. I've had every survival job you can think of. I've done singing telegrams with the monkey that goes like this, and I've done sold shoes and I've waitressed and I've done a million survival jobs. So in my thirties I finally started to get acting jobs and I was a professional dancer for a while. And Grit didn't go to college right away, only finished two years of it. Later in my thirties when I met Michael, I was going to college and working and going on auditions and all of that. And when I met Michael, it was one of those crazy auditions where the casting director, Deb Burki, who I'm forever grateful for, she brought me in just to the callback. She didn't even read me first because we had had a relationship and she always appreciated my work and thought, oh, this is good for Cynthia.Let me just bring her in straight to the producers. And I remember Steve Levitan was there, probably Andy Gordon and Eileen because it was their episode and Eileen Khan and I got that job. She called me the next day and just said, yeah, you got it. And I was like, oh, yay. I'm so excited. And they only booked me for three days. So when I went on the set, it was at Universal because I didn't really know what Just Shoot Me was. It was a new show and I don't think it was airing yet. It was just the first six episodes. So nobody really knew what it was about or the tone or anything. And I just went in, did my scene, went home prepared to come back the next day for shoot day. Really? And you guys sent me a script at nine in the morning or something like that and said, we rewrote your scene because we found a better way to write this scene. I don't know, you can tell me the behind the scenes of that. I don't really know why you did that.Michael Jamin:I don't really remember why that was rewritten. It was a long time ago.Cynthia Mann Jamin:I think it was. Maybe it just wasn't exciting enough or something. And you wanted the dialogue to be between me and Laura more.Michael Jamin:I don'tCynthia Mann Jamin:Remember. Instead of the roommate. And so you guys had me into the writer's room before, which is very unusual. You never really go into a writer's room to work out a scene. But because we were shooting it that day and we had to go straight to the run through and I think the network was going to be there. You didn't want to mess around. And so you gave me notes and we rehearsed it and Laura was there and the other scene partner who, I'm so sorry, I forgot his name. Chris,Michael Jamin:I want to say.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, Chris. And then we just went and shot it. And then I shoot the scene at night and I'm like, oh my God, this was so much fun. And it was great. And I'm like, all right, I'm going to go. And who's standing right next to me as I'm walking off the set and kind of hanging back and it was you.Michael Jamin:It was me,Cynthia Mann Jamin:It was you.Michael Jamin:And then you said you wanted to marry me. I said, I don't even know you.Cynthia Mann Jamin:I complimented your tie. That's right. And then you said, I did a really nice job. Yeah, you did. And I said thank you. And then we were talking about, I think you said, so what do you like to do for fun? Or something like that. Yeah. We went and I asked you that and you said you swing dance. And I had already been swing dancing at the Derby many times with my friend Brendan. And we would go and swing dance. SoMichael Jamin:MyCynthia Mann Jamin:Knees went weak when youMichael Jamin:That's right. I took, it was either you or Brendan I took you.Cynthia Mann Jamin:So then long story short, there was a couple of weeks that went by and you called me and said, hi, this is Michael. And I said, I don't remember that name, but you're making it up because he has that name. And then you said, no, it's me and I would like to take you out for coffee. And I said, I don't drink coffee. I drink tea.Michael Jamin:Yeah, we had tea instead.Cynthia Mann Jamin:He said, that's okay, huh?Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. Right.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And then I remember this, Michael, on our first date, I hung back in my car because I think I saw you walk in. I'm like, I got to be a little late. I got to make him wait for me a little bit. So I made you wait just a little bit. And then I go in and the woman comes and says, so do you want a chocolate chip or oatmeal cookie, highland grounds? And it's not there anymore, I don't think. And you took the longest time figuring out what flavor you wanted. For me it was easy. It was chocolate chip or peanut butter. That was the other one. And then you go, I go, why did it take you so long to order the cookie? And you go, because I wasn't sure if there was anything to be gained by lying.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I was trying to impress you with the choice of cookies.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Weirdest thing anyone said to me that you cared enough about. The cookie choice is crazy.Michael Jamin:And then we've been together ever since.Cynthia Mann Jamin:We've been together ever since. And to go back to the projects, we started with tiling a table that now our daughter has at her college apartment. And that was our first project. And then we decided to have kids, and that was our second project.Michael Jamin:ThenCynthia Mann Jamin:I started my business Twirly Girl, which I ran for 15 years. Still going, but not as big. And you helped me with that. You wrote all my commercials and did all of that. And then you wrote a book and then I'm helping you with that. So I think we're better when we're working together, honestly.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Cynthia Mann Jamin:I do. I think it's, when I was doing Twirly Girl and you were working as a writer and all of that, we never really connected on any kind of common ground aside from the kids because you were always doing your thing. I was doing my thing. But then when you started to write the commercials, I think our relationship went to another level because it's like you're appreciating the other person for their gifts and what they bring to you. But it's also like you're helping me with something that really means a lot to me. And it was like this back and forth that just felt so great. And I trusted you more than anyone to put me in the best light. And I think that's the same with you trusting me with your words because I care about them and I want to present you in the best light and I'll work tirelessly to get it.Michael Jamin:And you have produce the audio book and you had to learn how to do all that. What do you have to tell people? What do you have to share? What wisdom can you share with people on starting something like this?Cynthia Mann Jamin:I would say, and I was talking to Lola about this last night, and what occurred to me was that when you have the pinch or you have the idea, just the idea to do something and it's filling you with a lot of joy and passion and it almost creates its own engine in you, and you just feel so motivated to attack it and see if you can accomplish it. It almost doesn't matter if anybody else likes it because it's something you need to do. And I felt that way with my business. I remember creating these dresses and going, I know they're special. I know they are so special. And I don't even, the icing on the cake is that other people love them, but that's not why I'm doing itm doing it because I need to do it. And it's bringing me so much joy and it's fulfilling something in me that was missing or that I didn't even know that I needed.And it brought me so much that I could have more than I could have ever thought, oh, I'm going to make dresses because it's going to give me a sense of self. It's going to fire that entrepreneurial spirit. It's going to make me feel connected to those around me. I'm going to share my story about it. I couldn't have thought that I just followed the desire to make something. And then all these things kind of cascaded. And that's what I'm telling you. That's how I feel about the audio book. When you said, all right, you're going to direct and you're also going to edit it and you're going to do all these things, I'm like, I don't know how to do Pretty much, I knew how to direct because of the acting background, but I didn't know how to do an audiobook. We didn't know how we wanted this to come into the world and what it would look like. But I felt that desire, that same joy to just achieve this. And we love it and we know we did an amazing job, and the fact that it's resonating with other people is icing on the cake because we couldn't not do it.Michael Jamin:But you still had to learn a lot of skills to do that.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, I think I love, I'm one of those people that loves learning by doing. You would tell me, watch the videos on how to do it. And I was like, this is not going to go anywhere for me because I'm not going to retain it unless I need it. If I need to know how to do something, then I'm going to learn it. So I learned by doing it. And that process is so exciting to me because I know that I'm also growing as a person if I can accomplish something really hard that I don't think I know how to do or I've never done before. So that challenge is also really gratifying for me.Michael Jamin:And now there's the next challenge, which is taking it on the road.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And we have no clue how to do that either. Yeah,Michael Jamin:We'll figure it out. I guess we'll just make it happen.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah,Michael Jamin:It's really just about putting your energy into something and then watching as things start falling into place.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Exactly. You don't know what you don't know, but you'll find it out. And then that thing will lead to another thing. And we have very different styles. You and I, what my sense of what you do, and you tell me what you think mine is, but my sense of what your approach is is you throw a hundred percent of your energy into thinking about it, and you're almost like tunnel vision. You have to be so hyperfocused on it until you get it to where you want it to be and nothing distracts you. What do you think my style is? I'm just, is that I have that right?Michael Jamin:I'm not really sure. I guess so I'm not really sure I, I guess I work on it until I'm done.Cynthia Mann Jamin:But it is like you have this hyper focus about it. And for me, I kind of feel guilty if I'm not like you just sitting at the computer and studying it and figuring it out, then to me, I have to walk away and I have to kind of let it settle. And then I have to really check in with my intuition in a way and go, okay, what's the next right move? Where do I need to spend my energy is just spinning my wheels, trying to figure it out, doesn't work for me. And I feel like you are good at that. You're good at like, okay, I'm going to figure this out. And you just keep working it and working it kneading the dough. And for me, I have to leave it and come back to it.Michael Jamin:All of it was every single part of it. None of it's easy. I don't know why people expect it to be easy. We all want it to be easy, but it never is. The creating of it is never easy. And then the marketing of it, putting it out there and getting people to, that's half the battle.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And I think the main thing that we discovered, and I think you working with Twirly Girl really helped you with this project because you saw how being authentic and really communicating with your audience in a very real way resonates. And there's no other way to do it because how could you post every single day if it wasn't something that was organic for you, it would be torture, trying to become this person that you think other people want to see, or you got to position yourself like this other person over here. But it really is about finding your unique voice because that's all we have. There's a million books out there. There's a million dresses. I created dresses. There's a million of them. We don't need another one. But what we don't have is the dress that I can make. What we don't have is the book that you can write. And I think leaning into that perspective is really, really empowering and crucial to the creative process.Michael Jamin:We would speak a lot. We would go on walks and speak a lot about, in the beginning we would talk about what the function of art is, what's the expectation and what the market is. I remember talking about, because David Sedaris is the one who inspired me to write this. I love his writing. And it's the same genre, personal essays, and I remember talking to you, but we know what he writes. People love, we know there's a market for it. So I be doing that.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, I, but he's kind of paved the way, and that was inspiring. I think inspiration is so healthy, and that's what you were inspired by. But the whole thing that you talk about is finding your voice, and it took you a while to find the rhythm. And people, when they read it, they're never going to confuse David s and Michael Jamin. They're never going to, because your background in TV gave you this whole different way of going into a story and entertaining an audience. And that's just in your blood. It's in your makeup, it's just who you are and the details of everything that you write. It reads like a film or cinematically because there's no moment in there where it's not leading to something elseMichael Jamin:You are listening to. What the hell is MichaeliJamon talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity. And Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, we'll find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.Michael Jamin:I wish it was a genre that was easier to explain to people, because when people say, what's your story? What's a book about? I have to try to explain, well, it's personal essays, but it's not an essay. Essay sounds like homework. It's not a memoir because I'm not important that it's my memoir. They're stories, but they're true. But what is that? It'd be just so much easier if I could say, well, it's YA fantasy or something. And people go, oh, okay. I know what young adult fantasy is, but it's not that. And so that's part of the uphill struggle that we have is explaining to people, getting people to understand enough just to take a chance and read it.Cynthia Mann Jamin:But I think letting people catch up to what is what's important, what it is, is important because you're assuming that you have to spell it out for people. And I'll equate it again to Tuley Girl, the dresses I made were so hard to explain. And we were like, but it's not this. It's not fantasy, but you can wear it every day. And I had about 5,000 different taglines because I couldn't communicate it. And then finally you came up with the most amazing explanation of what it was after probably about eight years of doing it, which was, whatMichael Jamin:Was it? You could say it. You could say it.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, we don't create dresses. We create your favorite childhood memory. Happy childhood. We're creating happy memories,Michael Jamin:Happy childhood memories.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Dress isn't just a,Michael Jamin:You got it wrong. We create happy childhood memories. That's whatCynthia Mann Jamin:It was. Right? Happy childhood. Well, I've had a year doing the audiobook, so 12 Girls in the Distance there.Michael Jamin:But that was another thing I remember. We saw a wonderful special by this guy named Derek DelGaudio called In and of itself, it's a wonderful, it was on Hulu. It was like a one-time special, basically like an hour long or something.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, it started as aMichael Jamin:Stage play. It started as a stage play. But when I tell people, when I try to describe what it's about, it's almost impossible to describe. And that's part of the problem. It's hard. It was such a uniquely wonderful experience, but it's impossible to tell people to describe it because it's its own thing.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, I But you would say it's a one man show and a very unique experience,Michael Jamin:But there's magic and it's participation, but it's not magic. It's something else.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, it's not a magic show.Michael Jamin:No, it's not a magic show. So it's really hard to, putting something in a box makes it easier to sell because people can understand what the box is. And I feel like that's part of the struggle I have with a paper orchestra, which is, and everyone who reads it, they love it, but they still don't understand what it is until they actually read it.Cynthia Mann Jamin:But see, I think what you have on the cover is perfect. It's true stories about the smallest moments that you sometimes forget. What if the smallest moments were the ones that meant the most? So that says everything to me. That's all I need to know.Michael Jamin:That's what the book is. It's just about, hey, here's a small moment in life where I point out, which easily you could have forgotten about because it's so small. And it turns out, if you look back at that moment, everything changed because of it.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And I love that you talk about the fact that it's really not about, you have to have these catastrophic or monumental things happen to you to be a changed person. Most of us don't have those huge, huge moments and so tender and intimate about it and relatable because you didn't come from an unusual background. You're pretty average with child of divorce. That's kind of average for our job, do.Michael Jamin:So those are the kind of stories that I tell, and I said before, I really don't think the stories are my stories. The details are mine, but I'm really trying to tell your story. But maybe you haven't figured out how to do that. But I do that because I'm a writer, so I know how to do that.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, yeah. And I think we're just, it's nice that we're able to work well together in so many ways. And I think it really does stem from having that deep respect for each other's gifts, and we're able to really be very upfront with each other when we don't like something or when we question it. And I'm not married to my way doing it my way. I'm really looking at the bigger picture. I want a paper orchestra to be great. What's going to serve that? And I think we both have that in mind. And in terms of the tour and taking it on the road, I mean, I think you're more than ready to perform it. And I'm so excited for people to be able to experience it in that way as well.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's a different kind of, that's why, because the show, it is a theatrical show. And I do think there's something more intimate about, people say, can't you record it and play it? Yeah, I could, butCynthia Mann Jamin:Well, that's the audio book. But that audio book is going to be different.Michael Jamin:But in terms of even recording the stage show, you'll miss the intimacy of being right in front of me, being in the room and feeling the energy. You don't feel the energy. That's probably the thing with tv, it's great. It's a wonderful form, but you don't have the same energy as you do seeing live theater. And I wish there's a better way because many people don't want to see live theater, but it's different. It's a different experience. Good theater is great. Bad theater is terrible. That's why it runs the whole gamut. There's that expression. Nothing lasts forever except for bad theater, and that's because of the energy. So it goes both ways.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And when we were working together on the audiobook the first time, we were trying to convey that performance that we do live. And after listening to it again and showing, having our daughter, Lola, listen to it, and her listening to literally the first three minutes, and I had already edited the whole thing. She was like, oh no, this isn't, I can't, you got to bring it down. And we were like, yeah, I had a feeling because when I was editing it, I was like, I don't know. I dunno about this. We just got to see.Michael Jamin:Yeah, we had to do it again because we wanted the performance to be more intimate because you're listening to it on headphones or alone in the car, and it's a different, you're not listening it in a group of people, which is what the theater show is. So I'm literally in your head because you're wearing headphones. We had to bring everything down and make the performance much more intimate. It's a different, and we'll have to see how that affects my next performance with my live show.Cynthia Mann Jamin:You're totally different. I know, totally. But see, when you say we had to bring it down, I don't like saying it like that because it makes it sound like it's sleepy and it's not.Michael Jamin:You had to bring it moreCynthia Mann Jamin:Intimate. But it's like I really wanted, it's more like you contained the energy. They took this kind of energy that needs to project out, and we harnessed it and shoved it into a little two 12 by 12 area inches.Michael Jamin:But this is all acting stuff that I could not have done without you because you're an actor. I have couldn't have figured this out on my own, I don't think.Cynthia Mann Jamin:No, I think it would've been really hard because your tendency when you would just start to read it before I would kind of steer you in the right direction or go, oh, you're going down the wrong path. Let me take you over here. That's pretty much all I needed to do in those moments. But your natural tendency was to just start reading it. And I'm like, where are you? I don't hear your personality. I'm not engaged in the story because you are not connected to it. So it really required the same amount of energy, Michael, that does for you to do this on stage, but you had to have the same amount of energy but contain it.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I mean, it's a whole different art to it, not an actor. So I had to learn how to do, how perform it to keep people engrossed in it. So I dunno, it's a fun performance. We want to travel because this is what we want to do next. We want to travel together and put it up and continue. So if anyone wants to come see it, you can go to michael jamin.com/upcoming and enter your city, and then we'll let you know. When we get to your city, we're figuring out how to, this is the next thing we're figuring out how to actually make it happen so we can do this effectively. Bring it to people's, bring the theater because it's a whole, again, people will say to me, whoa, can you sell it as a tv? Maybe it could be a TV show, maybe it could be a movie. And I'm always thinking about, why can't it just be a book? Why can't it be an audio book? Why can't it be a theatrical show as if TV or movies is somehow better than the experience that we're creating now? I don't think it is. And I work in television and film, I don't think it's better.I think there's a betterness to what we have.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, there's a pureness to it. There's something very simple and pure and the pacing of it. Everything is consumed so quickly right now, and it's almost too much. It's just too much. And what this does is it helps us to slow down. Yeah,Michael Jamin:There's a power in the pause. There's so much energy that you can portray. This is something that took me a while to have confidence to do, but you can act. You're talking, you're saying you're doing whatever, the whole dog and pony show, but in leaving that pause and saying nothing, there's this anticipation and the audience is just waiting for it. And it's like a loaded gun.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah. I don't like that analogy, but what is it? Well, it's like you're on the edge of your seat and you've got us in your hands, and we're just captive. We're a captive audience. Time stands still. Time stands still, and we're just with you. And it really is allowing our being to kind of just be in that moment. It crystallizes the moments. And those are the moments in theater that why it's so impactful is because we're in this communal experience together where we're experiencing time at the same time, and we're also being together at the same time. It's very profound. And I remember working with you on the audio book and you were really hesitant to take us with you. I remember that. I kept saying, take us with you, Michael. It was like, but I'm going too slow or I'm going too fast. Or it was like, it didn't matter. The pacing. I would arbitrarily tell you, take us with you. And you would say, but I am. I go, yeah, but even if you're slow, or even if you're fast, the intention is to connect with us and make sure that we're with you. And it's hard on an audiobook because there's no audience, but with an audience, you can feel.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But with the audience too, I'm in front of a bright light. I don't see them. I can sense them, but I can't see anybody. ButCynthia Mann Jamin:That's what's important is you sensing it. You can totally sense it. You can sense it because you can hear the Oh or that, or you can hear laugh, or you can hear the silence is different than a regular silence. It's like a pin drop.Michael Jamin:There's that moment at the end of the Marissa disclaimer where I confess to something and the audience is so disappointed. I remember the first time we performed it, they were just like, oh,Cynthia Mann Jamin:We all go. OhMichael Jamin:Yeah. Everyone was so disappointed in me. But that's so effective about it, is that they were along for the ride. And yeah, and that's another thing. You gave me a couple of things that helped me before each show. You printed out Ellie Zen's, what is it called?Cynthia Mann Jamin:Letter to the actor.Michael Jamin:Letter to the actor. And I read it before where I talk about, where he talks about what my responsibility is to the audience as a performer, what my responsibility is. And so it doesn't feel, it's not like, because it can come off as being self-absorbed acting. It could come off as being narcissistic. Look at me. But you can't look at it that way. You have to look at it as this is what I have to do in order to give you what you want,Cynthia Mann Jamin:A gift. You have to give the audience a gift, and you have that responsibility to leave it all on the stage. And when you're an actor, it's no longer about you, Michael. It's about the words on the page. And you need to fulfill those words on the page. And as an actor, we're taught that the words are sacred. We don't change the words. We don't try and outthink the words. They are everything. And our job is to bring that to life and bring ourselves to the piece.Michael Jamin:And it's exhausting, though, at the end of the show. It is exhausting. Don't people appreciate how much energy I have to be in every moment so as not to check out or phone in, or just at the end of the night, I'm exhausted from an hour show. It's like, God,Cynthia Mann Jamin:And you're not expected. It's impossible in a way. And the greatest actors will say this too, that it is a job. So what do you do if you're not feeling it? And in that moment, you're thinking about what you're going to have for dinner, or, oh my God, I can't wait to just go home and lie down because it requires so much energy. And what you do is you go with that truth inside. I don't even want to be here right now. You use the truth of what you're feeling in that moment, and that brings you back into the piece. You have to connect to something real. Whereas if you're denying it and you're going, oh my God, I suck right now. I need to force myself to have this energy, then you're going to overcompensate and you're going to force it. And it's not going to be truthful. But if you really go into the moment of like, ah, damn, I'm just, I got nothing. I feel nothing. How does that make you feel? Feels pretty shitty. All right. I'm just going to say the next line from this place, because this is where I'm at. And then it takes off. Then you're off again. I mean,Michael Jamin:But what if the line, you're not supposed to feel shitty onCynthia Mann Jamin:It. The audience buys it because the audience knows truth. As long as you're truthful, we're going to take however you read it and go, oh, that must be what that means. Oh, the character must feel this way. They're not going, oh, Michael.Michael Jamin:But the character is not supposed to feel the character's excited to be at a party,Cynthia Mann Jamin:But it could look like this. Oh my God, I am so excited to be here. It could look really intense and focused when I'm feeling like God damnit, I'm not feeling anything. Instead of the idea of, oh my God, and I'm so happy to be here. Why does it have to come out that way? Even if I came out and was like, I'm really excited to be here. What does that come out? It could come across. I'm a little nervous or I'm excited. I'm afraid to showMichael Jamin:It. But it feels truthful. You're saying?Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yes, as long as it's rooted in some kind of truth, the audience will interpret it however it needs to go with theMichael Jamin:Story. This is some high level directing shit for people,Cynthia Mann Jamin:Don't you think? Yeah. I mean, I appreciate that. I think a lot of it to me is very, how I was trained was always going with what is. And you hear a noise, somebody, it's not about everybody being quiet all the time and ohMichael Jamin:My God. So what happens if you hear a noise backstage during your show,Cynthia Mann Jamin:You incorporate it. Even if you don't want to draw attention to it, you as the actor, because the audience is all going to hear it. So if you hear that, I have to just kind of go, all right, I don't have to comment on it. I just have to take that moment and allow it to be there. Because again, if you deny it,Michael Jamin:But doesn't that break the fourth wall? If you hear a banging backstage and then you turn your head and you acknowledge it, it's backstage.Cynthia Mann Jamin:But it could be if you're the character and you hear something backstage, that's the world you're in. It could be in the next room.Michael Jamin:You have to, if you don't acknowledge it, if you don't acknowledge, it's like, well, why aren't they acknowledging?Cynthia Mann Jamin:And then there's a giant elephant in the room and stuff like props falling over. Oh my God. There'd be the worst thing an actor could do. One of the worst things is like their hat falls off and it's not supposed to fall off. And the whole time it's sitting in the middle of the stage, the audience is worried about the hat. Now we're going to be thinking about the hat. So the worst thing an actor can do is to deny that the hat fell off. You know what I mean? Use it. Use all of it. All it is for the moment to fuel you. And sometimes the best. When I was on friends, David Schwimmer and I were rehearsing our scene. You did a bad thing. Very bad. Very, very bad. Yes, I know that scene. And we were rehearsing it and we screwed up, but we didn't sit there and go, oh, wait a minute.We screwed up the line. Let's take it back. No, you just go with it. And Marta and David, the show creators were standing right off to the side, and they're like, wait a minute, guys, what happened there? It was like, yeah, we screwed up the lines. Well, that's going in. We're going to do it that way now. And so the best, the happy accidents are when you don't plan it and you're going with it. And Michael, you have some amazing moments in the audio book where you can't speak. You're so full of emotion that you can't speak. And I've listened to it a number of times in my car, and my heart goes into my throat because I can't see you. And a lot of times I don't remember. It always catches me by surprise that that moment is happening. And I think, oh my God, did the audio track drop out? Because there's such a stillness. And then all of a sudden you come back in and your next line is just, you can barely even talk. And that resonates through the frigging speaker. We're not even seeing you. That's how powerful our emotion is if we just allow it to take us and to trust it. And it's transformative. ItMichael Jamin:Really is a time machine for me, because when I'm retelling those stories, it's like I'm living it again. Again. And people, the funny thing is, people after that show, when I do this, some of those stories, people are worried about me.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, yeah. Because that's what IA Kaza talks about, is you just leave it all on the stage. Yeah. Because why else are you there? Why are you there? If you're not going to go there, then why are you there?Michael Jamin:That's why I feel like one of the things that I like about personal essays, which is so hard to explain to people, but when they read it, they get it. Is that a novel? The characters are made up. They're fictitious. And the worst thing that can happen to your charact, they'll die. But again, they're just made up, so everything's fine. Your favorite made up character just had something horrible. Again, they're just made up. But with these personal essays, I feel the stakes are higher. I feel like it's a unique art form because the stakes, it's a real person telling real stories about themselves. The stakes are higher because they're not made up.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And that's the beauty of you performing your own work too, is that you can really shine in that way. You don't have to worry about becoming a character, putting something on, but I think it is hard for you because you have to psyche yourself up to really go there. It's like your energy has to be up. You have to be willing to investigate that. And if you're not feeling it, you got to go with the truth that you're not feeling it it. Then see where that leads you. It's scary.Michael Jamin:It's also, the funny thing is I don't really have any desire to do anybody else's to act in someone else's show. I don't have a desire to become an actor. It's just really more like I have a desire to pursue this art.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And why do you feel the pinch to want to perform it? And I've asked you this in the end of the audio book too, but it's not so much. What is it in you that needs to be seen and heard, orMichael Jamin:I'm not entirely clear on it. I just want to, I suppose it's because, and I'm very happy. I've had a long and successful career as a TV writer, but part of me also feels like there's just something missing from what I write.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's similar to when I was a dancer. I was like, I need more expression than this. I have to act now because dancing just is part of the expression, but it's not allowing me to fully express everything. So maybe performing is part of that for you. It's not enough to just have people read it or listen to it. You want to experience it with them. You need that connection, that expression.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I guess. And I also, I kind of want to just do something special. That's all. Because I wonder sometimes before when I go on, I go, why am I doing this? I just want to create something special that people will like. And I think people get it from the book and the audio book, so it's not necessary. I don't think it's necessary for me to perform, but maybe it's a plus. I don't know.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah. I think more will be revealed as they say. You'll see why. And that's another thing about following those creative impulses. I know because I have this hindsight with Twirly Girl, after doing it for 15 years, I can honestly look back and say that I would've never expected to have experienced what I experienced in the way that all the gifts that it brought me, there's no way I could have predicted that. And I think it's the same thing here. You just don't know where it's going to lead you, but you feel the need to do it. And I think that's enough. I think that's all you need, honestly. It takes on a life of its own too.Michael Jamin:Yeah. We'll see where it goes, but we'll just put energy into it and see where it goes.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yes. Onto the next project. But this project now,Michael Jamin:Well, maybe that, is that where we conclude this podcast? Is there anything else to cover?Cynthia Mann Jamin:I don't know. I don't know anything else for you.Michael Jamin:I don't know. I'm very grateful for all your help doing this. I couldn't do any of this without you. And for everyone listening, it really helps if you have someone helping you with whatever your project is, it does help a lot. And so you have to find the right person, whoever that is.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, I'm so grateful for you and everything that you've brought me, and this is just a joy and everything I want it to be. It is. And I'm so happy to be working with you.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you're sweet. Alright, everyone, there you go. A paper orchestra signed copies are [email protected]. You can also find the link to the paperback, the ebook, the audiobook, the audiobooks on Audible, Spotify, and Apple. It's called The Paper Orchestra, produced and directed by Cynthia.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, but here's the thing, guys. If you want to see him in person, we would love to meet you. So keep in touch with us.Michael Jamin:Yeah, sign up at michael jamin.com/upcoming. Okay, everyone, thank you again. Thank you, Cynthia.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Thank you, Michael. I love you.Michael Jamin:I love you.Michael Jamin:Wow. I did it again, another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I love the Journey. And Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/screenwriters-need-to-hear-this/exclusive-content

On December 30th, I hosted a webinar called “How Professional Screenwriters Overcome Writer’s Block” and I talked about why story structure is so important in getting past this block. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.Show NotesA Paper Orchestra on Website: - https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:Everyone wants to be a showrunner, which is again, why it's so freakingMichael Jamin:Hard. I want to make all the decisions, but you don't know based on what youMichael Jamin:Don't know what you're doing. Why would you want that? Is it an ego thing you want to tell people you're a showrunner or don't you want to learn? Do you assume? When I was starting off, I didn't want to be a showrunner for 10 years. I didn't want to be a show runner. Like, this is a hard job. I don't know how to do it.Michael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase and to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Michael Jamin:Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, we're doing another q and a from one of our webinars and my special guest host is Kevin Lewandowski, script coordinator extraordinaire. He helps out with a lot of my projects, social media projects here and he's subbing in for Phil and he's doing a great job. So welcome Kevin.Kevin Lewandowski:Thank you again for having me.Michael Jamin:You screwed it up. You already screwed. No, I'm only messing with you. You're doing great. Thanks.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, I'm not going to apologize for not being Phil anymore, so fair Phil. But no, I'm happy to be here and this how professional screenwriters overcome Writer's Block is one of my favorite topics to talk about. Oh good. So I think it's super, super interesting and there's been, when we dive into it, I'll say my favorite line that you always say that just unlocked the excuse sometimes we use for when we have writer's block.Michael Jamin:I'm curious to know what your favorite line is.Kevin Lewandowski:Alright, I have so many Michael Jainism that I think my all time favorite is Shit Happening is not a story.Michael Jamin:By the way, we have that on merch now, guys. Yeah, we do. We got merch and you can go get [email protected]/merch where all the crazy things that I say, you can get it on a on mug or a notebook or whatever. We got merge. Go get it. I should have plugged it before, but I forgot. But anyway, these questions came from our last webinar that we did and if you're not on my webinar list, sign up for it's free. Go to michael jamin.com/webinar and you can sign up. You can be invited when we do our next one. And so yeah, Kevin, we had a lot of questions people asked. We didn't have time to get all the questions answered and so here they are nKevin Lewandowski:Here we go. These first couple of questions are going to be about kind of course related stuff. So this first one is from David Zilo. I feel like we see his name a lot. I feel like he comes to these webinars a lot and ask a lot of questions. The question is, how does the story structure change when say a character does not, cannot achieve a goal in the tragic story, for example,Michael Jamin:Doesn't change at all. It's the same old story structure that we use. Whether the character achieves their goal at the end or not, it's the same damn thing.Kevin Lewandowski:Yep.Michael Jamin:The guys you're just asking, he's just asking at the end, what if the last two minutes are different, so what? Nothing.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, I think it's always more interesting for me when that character doesn't achieve their goal. I think the breakup with, but yeah, Vince v and Jennifer Ston, they don't stay together in the end. No. It's one of the few rom-coms that I think they decide to go off the beaten path and not haveMichael Jamin:Them end often. We call this the joyful defeat in a movie or the character doesn't get what they want, but they get what they need. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Next question, Rob. Robert, when is the latest the stakes should be made clear?Michael Jamin:The sooner the better because the story does not start until the audience knows what's at stake. And so until then you're boring them and you're daring them to change the channel or read another script or do something else with their time. So the sooner the better, and that's a note you'll get from a network executive. They'll always say, can we start the story sooner? And so wherever you have it, they'll give you that note. If it's on page four, they'll say page two.Kevin Lewandowski:In your experience, is there a realistic, for instance, if they were like, oh, it's on page three, we need it on page two, have you ever run into We just can't. We need a little bit of room to be able toMichael Jamin:SetKevin Lewandowski:SomethingMichael Jamin:Up. Absolutely. And so you'll move it up a little bit, but sometimes there's only so much you can do.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. But yeah, like you said, they'll always say, oh, can we start this sooner? Yeah, we'll take a look at it. We'll take a look at that. Coley Marie, can the goal change or appear to change?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yes. And often it sometimes will. It's like because something happens and what the character thought they wanted is not what they want anymore. So yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:So how do you feel about, because sometimes it's, is there a fear of if you start writing it too much of a change, can it almost feel like, oh, okay, now we're following a different story to,Michael Jamin:It usually happens kind of like an act top of act three with the character discoveries. This thing that I wanted turns out I don't really want any. I got what I thought I wanted and it's not what I want. So that's usually late in the script.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. So you're saying in top of act two, if they wanted to,Michael Jamin:It wouldn't be top ofKevin Lewandowski:Act ride a pony at the end of act one. Top of Act two should be like, well, I want to win this prize at the CarnivalMichael Jamin:Now. Yeah, top of act two is one. Well, this is what we teach in the course. What tab of Act two would be, so yeah,Kevin Lewandowski:Arius Kennedy. So should we avoid high stakes conflicts?Michael Jamin:No. The higher stakes are good. High stakes are good. Higher the stakes are better. You want to avoid low stakes conflicts.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, low stakes conflicts are not that interesting. Heather Marie, vital, how do we find conflicts for TV shows with main characters without getting stale? That's kind of the job of a writer.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's right. That's exactly, that's the job without getting stale, it's like, and again, this is not her concern. Concern. Your concern is to do it once and then let's a showrunner worried about it getting stale. Right now your job is to write one great scriptKevin Lewandowski:Are Barry, when it comes to an episodic show, there's the overall show conflict and then the mini conflicts of the episodes. So I'm assuming they're talking about, there's the A story, the B story, the C story,Michael Jamin:Or maybe they're talking about the overall arch of the show. I'm watching Show Gun right now and I'm only on episode one, so it seems like the overarching stories, how is this one? I dunno if he called the futile Lord going to maintain his position in the kingdom, but within each episode he has a challenge that he has to overcome, so to make that larger prop goal happen.Kevin Lewandowski:Meg Parker Wilson, when you are writing a TV show, do you plot out the entire story pilot to finale and then create all those moments episode by episode in terms of the arc and the structure?Michael Jamin:No, it's too much work. It's too difficult. What you really, and again, this is not something that she needs to worry about, but maybe she's just asking me out of curiosity, we'll come up with a pilot and we'll have that pilot broken. We know what that story is going to be and then we have a vague idea of what season one might be. But I'm talking vague, just enough to bullshit our way through this because it'll change when we're breaking the story. As we discover writing and digging into the character, we'll discover something that might be better. So what are we going to do? Not do it just because we said we were talking out of our ass that this other thing was going to be better,Kevin Lewandowski:Right? Yeah. I think Vince Gilian, creator of Breaking Bad, I think he says something very similar. Yeah, we kind of have an idea, but part of going through different story ideas is you discover stuff along the way. Jesse Pinkman was only supposed to be four or five episodes, and then now they realize how much chemistry those two characters had. And could you imagine, would that show have worked if they would've killed off Jesse Pinkman? Because they said, well, we said our pitch, we have to kill em off after five episodes. We have to stick with that.Michael Jamin:I'm always surprised that people don't know that and they're worried about breaking the entire series. It's like, but breaking one episode of television when I'm talking breaking, figuring out what the story is and writing the outline in the script is so much work. How could you possibly do all that in advance and you have a team of writers doing all that work.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Sometimes you'll see people that'll talk about, yeah, I have this TV series I wrote and I have the first eight episodes done, and I'm like, oh, that's a lot to do withMichael Jamin:No theyKevin Lewandowski:Don't. One person,Michael Jamin:They really don't. They might have enough for one episode and they broke it up into eight episodes. They don't know any better. That's very common. I thinkKevin Lewandowski:I remember there's another example on friends that one of the writers was talking about. It's probably one of the more iconic moments of the whole series is when Ross is getting married to Emily and Rachel shows up and he ends up, he accidentally says Rachel's name, I Ross take the Rachel. And the writer was saying that wasn't anything we would've ever thought of. It was one day we were rehearsing or something like that. And he accidentally said the wrong name. And as writers, we all laughed and we thought that's super funny. He was like, we had the aha moment of like, oh, we need to include this. And that little moment had so much of a change for the rest of the series. Now it turned into, well, Emily will make them now. Okay. It's clear that Ross is still in love with Rachel and Emily. She's only going to come to New York if Ross stops talking to Rachel. So it was just that little moment of discovery and what would that scene or storyline have been if Ross married EmilyMichael Jamin:And they discovered that by accident and rehearsal and what are you going to do not do with this and that, that moment everyone gasped in the audience and people at home gasped. So what you not going to do it?Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, and I don't think in their pitch they're like, okay, season five we're going to have Ross marry this British girl, but when he is actually up there, we're going to have him say Rachel's thing. It was just discovery.Michael Jamin:You don't think that far in advanced. You can't. It's too much work.Kevin Lewandowski:Let's see. So this next question from Sarah, there's a bit of terminology from your course, so I'm going to not use that terminology, but does the end of act two have to be in direct relation to the conflict with the introduced in the first act? Can it be attributed to a different relationship conflict?Michael Jamin:No, no, no. Pretty much no. If you're telling one story that's your A story or your act two break to be on the A story. If it's coming out of nowhere and it's like, what's this? It's not going to feel earned. It's going to be like, what's going on?Kevin Lewandowski:Rob, Robert again, how do we make funny? Because it can be so subjective.Michael Jamin:Yeah. One thing I say is in my course, I can't teach you how to be funny. I can maybe teach you how to be a little funnier. I could give you tips that will help you be a little funnier, but if you're not funny, I can't help you be funny. It's okay. You can write drama. There's plenty of work for drama writers and just write what you're really good at. But it is a little heartbreaking. I see sometimes when people, I want to be accommodator, but you're not funny, so you don't have that in you. That's okay. Write some other stuff. Drama's great too.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. One of my other favorite things you say, and this wasn't the one I was talking about earlier, is you have to find new ways to say old things in a funny way. Yeah. Every version of a joke has been told to a degree. So how do you make it relevant to today and your story and your characters and make it so it hasn't been heard that way before.Michael Jamin:You know what though? I just got an email from, I don't know how I'm on this list, whatever. I got an email from a writer and she's doing a public appearance and she said, come see me the headline, come see me. I don't bite. And I'm like, oh God, you're supposed to be a writer. Don't tell me you don't bite. That's so unoriginal. That's so clammy. That's not something a writer should ever say. Find a new way to say, I don't bite. I was so unimpressed. I was like, oh God, you just embarrass yourself. Don't do that. You're a writer. You have to find a new way to say old things.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Okay, so these are kind of more craft related questions, Nathan Shapiro, what are the rookie mistakes you see new writers making both in writing as well as from the business side. What is something you wish you had known when you were starting out? And then part two, which I think this is actually part three, do all supporting lead characters need an obstacle and goal? Or is it sufficient that they're simply there to facilitate the main hero's journey?Michael Jamin:This guy's gotKevin Lewandowski:Questions. We'll split this up. So the first part was what are the rookie mistakes you see new writers making both in writing as well as from the business side.Michael Jamin:I mean, a rookie mistake in the writer's room is what we call when they bitch instead of pitch. The expression is pitch, don't bitch. So it's very easy for a new writer to shoot down an idea in the room without having a better one because it's hard to come up with a better one. So that's a rookie thing. I don't care if the idea on the table is bad, if you don't have a better one, shut up because it's what are you there for? You're not a critic. Your job is to make it better, not to say this is bad. AndKevin Lewandowski:Also don't defend your joke if the showrunner doesn't think it's good. If you put something, they're like, ah, I don't really know. Okay, that's it.Michael Jamin:Don'tKevin Lewandowski:Fight for it. Don't just let it go. Think of a better one.Michael Jamin:What was the other question?Kevin Lewandowski:So the next one is, what is something you wish you had known when you were starting up?Michael Jamin:Well, to be honest, everything that I teach in the course, I didn't know any of it.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, I think it's just, yeah, I mean, again, Michael's course has unlocked a lot for me and someone that's not a very intelligent person, he really simplifies it.Michael Jamin:Yeah, make it easy.Kevin Lewandowski:It's easy to understand. I don't understand the terminology of progressive complications and sight incidents, all that stuff. IMichael Jamin:Don't understand it either.Kevin Lewandowski:Any sense to me? I won't tell you what the terms are that Michael uses. You'll have to take this course, but they're much easier toMichael Jamin:Understand. Yeah, I think writing should be simple. It's not easy, but it's simple.Kevin Lewandowski:And then the last part of this question, do all supporting lead characters need an obstacle and goal, or is it sufficient that they're simply there to facilitate the main hero's journey?Michael Jamin:Well, often they are an obstacle in the main hero's journey. Sometimes if you don't give 'em too much to play, they can be the Greek chorus, but generally every character in a scene has to have an attitude on something, and if they don't wire in the scene, if they don't have, they're not just there to stand around. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:So do you also think when in the context of the story structure that you teach in your class, those B stories that aren't necessarily as emotionally empowering as what the A story is, do you think it should still follow all those structure points or just enough or doesn't really matter?Michael Jamin:No, a b story doesn't carry the same emotional weight as the A story. So it doesn't actually have to carry, it doesn't have to be structured the way an A story is, but stuff does have to happen and it can't be random. It has to be on that story that we're following.Kevin Lewandowski:Okay. Next question. If it's an ensemble cast, like Orange is a new black or stranger things, does each character have to have a stake or only a main character? So very similar to thisMichael Jamin:Question. Yeah, usually you're following. I mean, I haven't watched Stranger Things in a long time. Maybe they have two or three running storylines in each episode. I don't know. They probably do.Kevin Lewandowski:Who is the hero in horror movies like Friday the 13th? Is it Jason or the person who survives at the end?Michael Jamin:Well, you're not rooting for Jason. You're not rooting for him to murder everybody. And again, I haven't seen those Friday the 13th movies, but you're rooting for the person in the summer camp.Kevin Lewandowski:Michael. Is there such thing as an anti-hero?Michael Jamin:Yeah, of course there is, and I talk about that, but the problem is I think it's unnecessarily complicated. What's interesting, an anti-hero and a hero. Why don't you just call it a hero and make it easier on yourself? Oh, because your anti-hero is a little bit unlikeable or a little bit dirty or villainous. Well, that's okay. There's still a hero.Kevin Lewandowski:I think there was an example you used of if you're writing something about the devil, him being what we all think the devil is, that's not interesting. You make him where he has compassion with some things and you give him layers like Sopranos. You talk about the example as well, and I think it's those villains are, they're the hero in their own story. We may not agree with it. They're the hero in their own story though. Yeah,Michael Jamin:I think Tony Swan, I don't think he's an anti-hero. I think he's a hero.Kevin Lewandowski:Okay, next question. Do you have to know the end when you start the story? Can it change?Michael Jamin:And often it does. You'll get often it does. Often it does, but usually when we're breaking a story on the board in the writer's room, no one sent off to outline or script until we know what the ending is. But it's not uncommon to get a draft back and you go, you know what? This ending isn't working. Let's figure out a new Act three.Kevin Lewandowski:And in your experience, do you think for something like the ending doesn't feel right, do you think that was potentially because it wasn't broken in the best way? Or do you think the writer didn't maybe necessarily deliver the dialogue the right way?Michael Jamin:Well, often problems in act three requires solutions in Act one. So in other words, it wasn't set up right. The ending wasn't set up early, and so it's unusual to say, okay, all we have to do is fix Act three. No, you got to fix all of it.Kevin Lewandowski:And that's when you have the really late nights and you do dinner in the writer's room, which everyone hates when that PA comes around is All right. What does everyone want for dinner?Michael Jamin:Yep.Michael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and carcass Review says Those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book, and now back to our showKevin Lewandowski:From Rachel. It helps to do homework before even writing. Yes. If you're new to fantasy, read some fantasy scripts or books first.Michael Jamin:Sure, a lot as much as you can, but I'd also ask you why you want to write fantasy then, if you've never read any or what's attracting to you, to you if you don't even know anything about it.Kevin Lewandowski:Next question. What's with the job titles that writers end up with? What do the different kinds of jobs actually cover?Michael Jamin:So there's different levels to writers. They're just ranks and in terms of how much it's big pay grades basically. So the lowest level writer is called a staff writer. Even though everyone, it's confusing because every writer on staff is a staff writer, but the lowest level writer has the title of staff writer. Then the next higher up is called story editor, then executive story editor, then co-producer, producer, supervising producer, co-executive producer, executive producer, the executive producer's the showrunner, and so they're the boss and everyone else. They're just different levels that determines how much you're going to get paid. Often it determines how much responsibility you have. If the showrunner leaves the room, often it's the co-executive producer who will run the room in their proxy or they'll do the set, they'll work on the set, they'll do whatever that's based on their experience. But in terms of job responsibilities, other than that, it's really up to the S to determine how much they want. Maybe they'll say if someone's a producer, they may let them go to the set on their own. I mean, it just depends on the showrunner, what they want them to do.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. One of the shows I worked on, I think we talked about this in the last podcast, Steve Rudnick, who wrote Space Jam and Santa Claus movies. He was a supervising producer on The Muppets, and he spent a lot of time on set and he really liked it. It's just fascinating to watch how those puppeteers canMichael Jamin:DoKevin Lewandowski:Their stuff. Next question from Steven. Can stream of consciousness work for screenwriting?Michael Jamin:Sounds terrible to me. I'm not a fan of stream of consciousness. I'm not really interested in reading your thoughts. If you're going to take me someplace, take me by the hand and lead me there. To be honest, just going to say it right now, I feel stream of consciousness is masturbatory. I feel like it's for yourself and no one else, but I could be. Someone else may enjoy it.Kevin Lewandowski:So when you say hold my hand, because I think there's also this, people sometimes assume, well, well, I don't want to put that on the page. It's just going to take a page. The audience will get, the audience will understand what I'm going for, and I think is there that fine line of figuring out, okay, what do I need to hold the hand of the audience through versus what do I think they're going to be able to pick up?Michael Jamin:Yeah. I like to write. When I'm writing, I like to check in with the audience, let 'em know. Yeah. When I say hold their hand, let them know. Remind them what's at stake here. This character wants, I'd like to just check. So it's not a mystery. Now, often that's the difference between sometimes you'll see a really smart writing, they won't kind of do that. They expect a little more of the audience. It just depends on what kind of show you're doing. If you're doing a broad silly show, you check in with the audience knowing that that's not what they're there for. They're there for something silly and fun. You got to keep checking in with them. But I just saw a zone of interest, which is really smart, and they didn't check in with the audience, and that might win. The Oscars a wonderful movie also. That's not a movie for the masses. I don't think it's going to be a movie that's a blockbuster. It was a great movie though.Kevin Lewandowski:What are the stakes of 2001 a Space Odyssey?Michael Jamin:God, I haven't seen it in forever. What were the stakes was the guy I am trying to remember. They went on a spaceship. They had a mission, but then the computer was sabotaging the mission and there was going to basically, I think the computer was going to kill them, basically take 'em on a mission that would kill them. Is that that I remember. So the stakes were life or death.Kevin Lewandowski:Those are pretty mistakes.Michael Jamin:And how do we defeat the computer? Who's the boss of the whole thing? How do we fool the computer? I believe that's what it was, right? It was a long time ago.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, it's been a while since I've seen that, and I guess if they don't, they die.Michael Jamin:I think so, yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Next question. How would you recommend doing a man versus a system conflict, like perhaps is seen in Cool Hand Luke?Michael Jamin:Well, I mean, yeah, that was the whole thing. He wanted to get out of prison. They were trying to, and again, I haven't seen that in 10, 12 years. I don't remember. He was in prison and the system was trying to break him down. Right? That's like anything you escape from Alcatraz to the same thing. How do we get out of this prison? So yeah, but I'm trying to remember in Cool Luke, there was probably a face to the system. It wasn't like a system. I'm guessing it there was a warden or something, or there were other inmates who was the face of the system trying to remember. They called me off guard.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. So I was thinking about when you said I was Shawshank Redemption, and I think it's, yeah, there's the system, but then kind of the warden represents the system. In that context,Michael Jamin:There was the warden and then the warden's proxy, the guard, and there were definitely, it wasn't so much the system. They were faces of the system. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Okay. Can the conflict be hidden from the hero? The hero thinks they want control money, but they really don't want to be alone because they were abandoned as a kid.Michael Jamin:Well, I mean, all of that is fine, but your hero is not going to want a hero. Wanting money is not a reputable goal. Who cares? So what your hero wants it sounds like, is companionship. If they're abandoned or or whatever. That's what they're really wanting. So yeah, I mean, all of that is fine, but I'm not sure why it's not hidden for the, yeah,Kevin Lewandowski:I think thinking about breaking bad, I think a lot of people would think, well, Walter White wanted money. No, that'sMichael Jamin:Not what he wanted. Walter White wanted to provide for his family. He was going to be dead soon, so it wasn't the money he wanted. What he wanted was very reputable. He wants to give his family something so they could live when he's dead to, because he can't provide for them. So it wasn't like he wanted a new Ferrari,Kevin Lewandowski:And I think that slightly eventually morphed into he just wants to maintain being powerful.Michael Jamin:Well, then it turned into something else. Then he went down this path of it was about power and control, and he went down that, but that was only seasons into it.Kevin Lewandowski:AI and equalizer for skill and creativity in this competitive era of artists?Michael Jamin:I don't think so. I think ai, I guess it's a cheat code if you want to be a writer, if you wanted to be a race car driver, you'd learn how to race, car drive, and you'd go to courses and classes and you'd be really good at shifting and all that stuff and understand the apex of a curve and how to attack a curve. Or I suppose you could get behind the wheel of a Tesla and put it on autopilot and you could just fall asleep. But why do you want to be a race car driver then if that's what you aspire to do? Do you just want to be a dummy in the wheel of the car?Kevin Lewandowski:I think one of the other things you always say too is AI may never be able to write true human emotion and never be able to really write what my personal stories have been my life. And I think until it can do that, I think we're fine.Michael Jamin:Yeah, we'll see. They're doing some, I guess, crazy amazing things, and I don't know. We'll see. But I'm not sure. I don't know why you or any other aspiring writer would want that. I would think you would want to root against that.Kevin Lewandowski:Oh yeah.Michael Jamin:I think, don't you want to write stories? Don't you want to be the author of the stories, don't you? Isn't that why you want to be a writer, to take what's inside of you and express it in a way that entertains people? Or do you want to be just the person who plugs the computer in the morning and say You're a writer?Kevin Lewandowski:And I think about the writer strike we all went through, and that was a huge topic of conversation, and writers took a sacrifice to stop this from happening to help protect writers that are going to be coming up. And I think it's probably going to be an ongoing battle for a while.Michael Jamin:Yeah, the world's changing fast. Yeah. Scary.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Too fast.Michael Jamin:Yeah, too fast.Kevin Lewandowski:Is it possible to have two showrunners attached to one project, the creator of the show, and one more experienced showrunner?Michael Jamin:No. I mean, they're not going to be equal. I mean, I suppose anything's possible, but it's very unlikely. I've been on shows where someone, a younger writer created it and then they assigned a showrunner. And the showrunner on that one show, the showrunner was very gracious, and he included this young writer and a lot of the decisions, and it wasn't like he made it a partnership as best as he could, but at the end of the day, he was still the boss. Someone has to be the boss, but he was very gracious about how he treated this young writer and he really wanted to mentor him. But again, when you're a mentor, that means more than the other person.Kevin Lewandowski:And you and Seaver have run shows together, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. But we're a partnership, so that's a little different. But this person is talking about one person created another one. Everyone wants to be a showrunner, which is again, why it's so freaking hard. I want to make all the decisions, but you don't know based on what you don't know what you're doing. Why would you want that? Is it an ego thing you want to tell people you're a showrunner or don't you want to learn? Do you assume? When I was starting off, I didn't want to be a showrunner for 10 years. I didn't want to be a showrunner. This is a hard job. I don't know how to do it. And then you get to the point in your career where it's like, it's either that or unemployment. So I'm like, all right, sign me up for showrunner.Kevin Lewandowski:What, even with that, the rooms I've been in, you just see how many meetings that the showrunners have to be in that aren't necessarily directly related to the writing and the story. It's costume stuff, it's hair and makeup stuff. It's set pieces. It's all these different things that they have the final, final approval on andMichael Jamin:And that's the easy part, all that stuffKevin Lewandowski:Breaking in. Any advice for being hired in a writer's room without coming up with an original show idea? Or do you have to bring an original idea to an interview?Michael Jamin:No, you don't have to. You can write a script on an existing show. You can write a great Game of Thrones spec script, and as long as the showrunner wants to read it and thinks it's great, you're hired.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Do you think in today's world, from what I've heard, spec scripts sort of aren't really a thing anymore. Do you think a lot of that has to do with just because there's so much out there that if I'm like, here, Michael, here's a specs on whatever show, there's a real chance that I've never heard of the show.Michael Jamin:Yes, that's exactly, and that's why, that's why I think it's unfair. I mean, life is unfair, but that's why I think it's harder today than it was back when I was breaking in. Because you could write a spec sip on an existing show on er, and everyone knew what ER was. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:It's interesting too, because then I've heard you say this too before, if you're running whatever show and it's in season two or season three, and you're interviewing me and you read my original pilot, you're more like, well, this is great, but I want to know, can you write my show? That's what I want you for. Your original pilot is cool, has nothing to do with my show. I want to know. Can you write my show? Do you have the character's personalities down?Michael Jamin:And it's harder to create an original show, a pilot. It's much harder, I feel, than creating a spec script of an existing show. That's the days we live in. What are we going to do?Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, I think that might've been all of our questions for right now, but I did want to say, so the one thing I always take away when we talk about this is when writers overcome writer's block, something you always say is Writer's block isn't really a thing for professional writers. You don't get to say, I'm going to go to the beach for three days and clear my head. And if you're really struggling with the writer's block, chances are you don't necessarily have the structure down to a point. And that'll help unlock a lot of problems for you. And that's what Michael scor teaches is those structure points and what you need to know. And I think there's little instances of writer's block where if I'm just kind of like I'm a little frustrated, go for a walk for 15, 20 minutes, and I live by a mall here in Glendale, and it wasn't too long ago, I remember I was walking and I was just thinking about something.I saw these two people, and it looked like it was a boyfriend and a girlfriend, and she had her Starbucks, and she was taking a picture of it, and someone bumped into her and she dropped it everywhere. And I just happened to see this interaction. And the guy, his reaction was kind of like, well, and I thought that was so fascinating because I was like, okay, what's the relationship between these two people? Because this is definitely not a first date. Because if it was a first date, he'd be like, oh my gosh, let me go get you a new one. And so then I was like, okay, so have they been dating for a while? Okay, then it's like, okay, well, if that was his reaction, has this happened so many times? He's just sick of her shit, always posting it to Instagram. He's like, I told you this was going to happen.And then I start kind of building this story in my head of what if this is her moment where she's like, I'm going to break up with you. This is bullshit. You're laughing at something bad. That happened to me. And I remember coming back to my apartment that day, and I felt like more just relaxed and calm. I saw this live event unfold that I don't think anyone else was watching, but I just happened to see this unfold. And I don't think that was anything I could have really written. I think I would've wrote like, oh, she drops it. He picks it up. He wants to impress her because he wants to get laid later. But his reaction was like, yeah, I told him this shit happens all the time. Stop taking pictures. Just drink the damn coffee.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's good. You're observing. That's what you should be doing.Kevin Lewandowski:It's good. When I worked at a theme park,Get a lot of material there from people, a lot of different personalities, I used to jot down a lot of stuff I used to see and just how people would interact. And it's nice to, when you kind of feel those moments of writing and you're kind of stuck, go back to those notes you took in that can help unlock something. I know you always show on your webinars, you have your black notebook that you've been carrying around your entire career and things people have taught you along the way, and you write 'em down in there. And that's just, that's gold right there.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Write it down. Keep a list of your, like what you're saying. Those specific things are just interesting.Kevin Lewandowski:And because you always say too, when you're driving, you don't really listen to the radio or anything. You just kind of talk with notes on your phone just to get it out there and start thinking about it. AndMichael Jamin:Yeah, if I'm working on a story, I won't listen to the radio. I'll just obsess over this one moment I'm trying to fix in the story. And if I get it, great. Now, that was my writing for that morning was fixing that one problem. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Well, I think that is all we have question wise, Michael. WeMichael Jamin:DidKevin Lewandowski:It. We did it.Michael Jamin:We did it. Thank you everyone. What else do we got to talk about? If you want to come to our free screenwriting webinars, you could sign up at michael jamin.com/webinar if you'd like to. I got a newsletter. Get on that Michael jamin.com/newsletter. And of course, we're unplugging my book, which I worked on for four and a half years. It's called the Paper Orchestra, and it asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? And someone asked me on the live, if I could explain it a little better what it is. And I think what the book, one way to explain it is imagine they're very personal and intimate stories, and I'm sharing them as if, imagine me reading my diary, but performing it out loud knowing that you are going to be watching it. And so I'm going to say it in a way that's going to be entertain you, but it's still my diary. But it's structured in a way, so it's like, I know I have an audience here. And so that's kind of what it is. They're stories, they're true stories, but hopefully they're told in a way that is engaging and makes you laugh and hopefully makes you feel something. It's more importantly.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Yeah. So go to michael jamin.com, check out his book. There's a bunch of, just go to his website, michael jamin.com, click around. There's webinars, there's the podcast. Get uploaded there. There's a couple of free lessons you can download, scripts he's written. There's so much there. And like he said, that you can get his book there and you can get a signed copy from him on his website. And it's Amazon. It was when you originally launched it, it was number one in five different categories on Amazon, so it was pretty wild. So yeah, check out the book, join the class, join our webinars, follow Michael on social media. He's still giving out free tips and trying to help people. And yeah, that's all I got.Michael Jamin:Excellent. Alright. Thank you Kevin. Great job. And if they want to follow you, Kevin, where do they follow you on social media?Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, so it's Kevin Lewandowski. It's a long last name, I'm sure after you just type the first five letters, it'll pop up.Michael Jamin:Excellent. Alright everyone, until next week, keep writing.Michael Jamin:Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asked the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/screenwriters-need-to-hear-this/exclusive-content

On December 8th, I hosted a webinar called “What “Do Showrunners Look For In A Script,” where I talked about how to come up with interesting and unique characters, as well as how tapping into your everyday life interactions with people can help with this. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.Show NotesA Paper Orchestra on Website: - https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:Well, no one cares that you took my course, so zero. No one's going to be. That's why we don't give a diploma out because the diploma is worthless. No one really cares if you went where you studied, who taught you all they care about? Is the script good or not? Does it make them want to turn the page or not? Do they want to find out what happens next or not?Michael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Michael Jamin:Hey everyone, welcome to a very special episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about. I'm here with my guest host Kevin Lewandowski, and he helps out a lot with the podcast, with all my social stuff, and he's actually by trade. He's a writer's assistant script coordinator, which is actually one step higher than writer's assistant, so he's worked on a bunch of shows. Kevin, welcome to the show.Kevin Lewandowski:Thank you for having me. Michael, for those of you, sorry I'm not Phil, I'm just kind of filling in for Phil for a couple days, but I'm excited to be here. And yeah, I hope to tell you all a little bit about script coordinating as well and what that all entails,Michael Jamin:Fill in and fulfill, fillKevin Lewandowski:In and fulfill.Michael Jamin:What shows were you script coordinator on?Kevin Lewandowski:So the big one was Why Women Kill.Michael Jamin:Did we ever figure out why?Kevin Lewandowski:I mean, depending on who you ask, a lot of women will say because of men,Michael Jamin:They kill for ratings.Kevin Lewandowski:Right? Okay, that's better. But yeah, that was, I forgot how long ago that was, but that was, unfortunately we got canceled four or five days before we were supposed to start filming. Our actors had just landed in Canada and then the next day they announced they were pulling the plug on the show.Michael Jamin:Why?Kevin Lewandowski:It could be many reasons. I think a lot of it had to do with we were a little bit behind on scripts and then budgeting and we were still kind of in the midst of covid precautions and things like that.Michael Jamin:Covid, people don't realize, especially new showrunners, you don't mess with the budget. You get things done on time, Ross, you're screwed. What other shows did you work on then?Kevin Lewandowski:So the first show I ever worked on was in 2015. It was the Muppets, and it was funny. I thought if anyone ever caught a break, this is my break. I was like, it's the Muppets, it's going to go on for five or six years and I'm just going to notch up every year. And after 16 episodes, that one got canceled.Michael Jamin:What's Ms. Piggy really like?Kevin Lewandowski:I mean, she is who she is. Difficult. Yeah, she's difficult. She's a bit of a diva. We have to had to cater to all of her needs.Michael Jamin:What about, I'm sorry, and what were the other shows? Screw Miss Piggy. Yeah,Kevin Lewandowski:Screw Miss Piggy. So after that, a bunch of pilots that never got picked up, and then I worked for a show on Netflix called The Ranch with AshleyMichael Jamin:ElementKevin Lewandowski:That was a live audience show and I was there for two seasons. I'm trying to think after that. It's all becoming a blur. I did two seasons of Why Women Kill. Actually the first year I was a line producer's assistant, and so that was interesting to kind of see the financial side of things and see where they decide to put the money in. And then for season three, they moved me to Script coordinator,Michael Jamin:But the Branch was a legit show. That was a big show.Kevin Lewandowski:That was a lot of fun because I'd always wanted to work in the Multicam world. There's just something about show night and it's just kind of a big party for everyone and you get to see the audience's instant gratification. It's just a lot of fun. A lot of fun to work on those shows.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well now the next thing for us to do is try to get you into one of these jobs so you don't have to co-host with me all the time on thisKevin Lewandowski:Podcast. I don't mind co-hosting with you.Michael Jamin:Oh, all right. Well, we'll see if you feel that way at the end. Okay, that's fair. So we are doing, this is a special q and a. We do these monthly webinars or whatever, every three weeks actually, and we have a lot of questions we can't answer. And so we save 'em for the podcast. And now Kevin's going to feed them to me. He's going to regurgitate them to me. He's going to baby bird them into my mouth, and then I'm going to try to answer them as best I can.Kevin Lewandowski:Early Bird gets the worm or something like that.Michael Jamin:Gross. Kevin Gross.Kevin Lewandowski:And I apologize in advance for anyone's name I might butcher.Michael Jamin:It's okay. They don't need to. I mean whatever if you get 'em wrong. Okay,Kevin Lewandowski:So these first few questions are going to be kind of course related questions. The first one is from Dat Boy, D-A-T-B-O-I. And that person's asking, what are the best tips for making my script shine more than the rest?Michael Jamin:Oh boy. Well, I wish he would. Well, he was already at my free webinar. I wish he would sign up for my course. I mean, that's what the course is. The best tips for making it shine is making sure your act breaks pop, making sure the dialogue feels fresh, your characters are original. I mean, there's no tips. It's not a tips thing. It's 14 hours of, let me tell you how to do it. That boy, I wish. What do you think, Kevin? What's your answer for him?Kevin Lewandowski:I think it's one of the things you always say on your webinars is after taking my course, you'll just hear me yelling in your head all the time about this is your end of act two moment, this is this, this is that. And I can vouch for that and say, anytime I'm looking through a script or even watching a TV show, because of your course and just understanding the story structure, you get those spider senses like, oh, the raising the stake should be coming very soon. Now we're about halfway through the episode, so something better be changing here. And I think it's just, again, everything you say in your course of just knowing those beats when they need to hit how they need to pop will help set your script ahead of amateur writers.Michael Jamin:You're a good student, Kevin.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Thanks.Michael Jamin:Alright, what's next?Kevin Lewandowski:So km phs, when I say I don't have experience, but I have a killer pilot and I took Michael Jamin's course. How much of a difference is the course going to make in terms of being a desirable hire?Michael Jamin:No one cares that you took my course. So zero no one's. That's why we don't give a diploma out because the diploma is worthless. No one really cares if you went where you studied, who taught you all they care about, is the script good or not? Does it make them want to turn the page or not? Do they want to find out what happens next or not? So I wish I could give you a better answer than that, but it's not the degree. The degree isn't worth anything. Hopefully the knowledge is worth something.Kevin Lewandowski:I think the analogy I have in my head of your courses, I look at scripts I wrote before taking your course, and it's like when you look back at high school photos and I had the Frosted tips, the pca, shell, necklace, hoop earring, and at the time it was cool. And now you look back and it's like it's pretty cringe-worthy. It's pretty cringe-worthy to see those photos. And now after taking your course, I feel like it's like now I'm wearing a suit and I don't have the poop hearing and I don't have the frosted tips, and I'm not as cringe-worthy when I look back at some of the scripts I wrote a year or so ago.Michael Jamin:Good, good. All right, good. Very good. Impressing me more and more, Kevin.Kevin Lewandowski:Right? Next question. Ous. I'm butchering that one. Nope,Michael Jamin:Perfectly. That's how he says his name.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. What are the most important things an inspiring writer should be aware of while reviewing one script before sending it to an established executive or writer?Michael Jamin:God, it's pretty much the same answer as all the other ones. It's like, do your act breaks, pop? Is it fresh? The dialogue, I'm sorry, but it's the same answer, so I don't really have anything to say. Yeah, yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Next question, mal. Yay.Michael Jamin:Exactly.Kevin Lewandowski:In a 26 page pilot is page 11 two, late for the first act break, second act break or second act being on page 20.Michael Jamin:On the 26 page script, the first back page is on 11, is that what they said?Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah.Michael Jamin:It's not terrible. I've seen worse things. I'm assuming it's a single space. It's not terrible. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Colin Miller, what is a good system to practice writing every day? I like this question.Michael Jamin:A good system, a good system. I don't know why you like it, because I'm stumped. I mean, I would just say write a good system is to, I'm most creative in the morning, so that's when I want to write and I try to do my busy work in the evening stuff that's easier, but you might be a night owl, but I would just carve out time every day and just sit down at the computer and write. And don't be so precious that no one's going to look at your first draft. That first draft can be terrible, so don't just get it on paper. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. I think a lot of maybe misconceptions people have is writing every day isn't necessarily open up final draft and typing something. Sometimes it's going on a walk for an hour and a half and thinking about the story you're trying to tell and laying out the beats in, I live in Glendale and there's a outdoor mall. It's fun to kind of just walk around there and people watch a little bit. And sometimesMichael Jamin:The Americana, that's where you go.Kevin Lewandowski:Yep. Right By the Americana.Michael Jamin:Are you in walking distance to thatKevin Lewandowski:Few blocks?Michael Jamin:Interesting. Okay. Alright. You'd like to go on the trolley.Kevin Lewandowski:I've never been on that trolley. I'm always afraidMichael Jamin:You like to ring the bell on trolley, Kevin. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:I'm always afraid it's going to hit someone.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I know. I know.Kevin Lewandowski:I think takes up a lot of the bottom of the path.Michael Jamin:Yeah. AllKevin Lewandowski:Right. Next question. So NRS creates, I guess this is a question, it's more of a comment. It said, agreed. The course is changing the way I see all of my stories. Good, great.Michael Jamin:Great.Kevin Lewandowski:Christina Sini, who's a current student, and Michael Jamin's course, we learned to break and structure story well before writing those bits and pieces of a script glued together that we won't have to cling to anyone to make them fit. We basically learned how to build in order. I think that goes back to your analogy of laying the foundation first and doing, starting with the characters in beat sheets and then outlining and eventually getting to the physical writing of the script.Michael Jamin:Yeah, she's doing great, Christina. She's having a good amount of success early on, so I'm impressed.Kevin Lewandowski:Another very active person in the course, Laurie. John Michael's course is amazing. When you take the class, you also become of the Jam and Facebook community. We do table reads and give each other notes twice a month. Writer sprints, Wednesday nights and mock writer's room. So anyone that's thinking about getting the course, we have this private Facebook group and it's a bunch of great people in there and we are all just trying to build each other up.Michael Jamin:It really is. It's impressive because when you look at some of the other Facebook groups, the screenwriting groups or on Reddit or groups, it's mostly people trying to tear each other down. But because this is private, I think they're not like that at all. It's a community, I think.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, I think that was a big thing for you because you said you were in some of those groups, and I think you even said you sometimes as a professional working writer, you would say something that people would attackMichael Jamin:You. Yeah. You don't, what are you talking about? Oh, alright. I happened once or twice. I was say, I'm done. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:All right. Next question. VV oral, is it worth it? And parentheses story structure is very detailed in your course, so I think maybe it's worth it, not is it worth it? Yeah. I think it's just more people praising about your course.Michael Jamin:Okay.Kevin Lewandowski:Let's see. Okay, now we have some craft questions. Good. From Mal mavey, they, again, is it okay to end a pilot on a cliffhanger?Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's okay, but better not. You're really counting on the fact that anyone's going to care, so you're better. I think what the danger is, you may be writing towards this cliffhanger thinking that everyone's going to be so, oh my God, what's going to happen if you don't write? If all those pages beforehand aren't so great, no one's going to care what happens. And so a lot of people write towards this cliffhanger thinking, oh, aren't you going to be enthralled? And the answer is no, we don't care.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Yeah. I think trying to work backwards from that I think can be a disservice. And I think it's just you definitely don't want that cliffhanger to be more exciting necessarily than your act one break, because that's what we know what we're following. Lex Macaluso, once I have a great script, what are the practical steps to do?Michael Jamin:Well, once you have a great script, write another one for sure. And then you want to make sure you actually do have a great script. And you do that by showing it to people. And it doesn't have to be somebody in the industry. It could be a friend or a mother or someone whose opinion you trust. What do you think? And if they love it and they say, this is amazing, show me something else. You're onto something. But if they say, well, I like this part, or I like when this happened, or This is a good storyline, then that's not a great script. So you have to be honest with yourself. It's really, look, it's really hard to write a great script. Everyone assumes they have it and I don't assume I have it. So when I do my job really well, I might have a good script. A great script is really, you got to really hit it out of the park.Kevin Lewandowski:And I think just that idea of what is a great script, so arbitrary, and I think it's sticking to the story structure of what you teach in your course can help set your script apart from others.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And honestly, it is those things that I'm looking for. All the things that I say that when I'm reading a script, what I'm looking for and what I'm really looking for is I want a really good script. It doesn't even have to be great because a really good script stands out great or amazing is very rare. I mean, how often do you see a movie that's been made or a TV show and you go, this is a great script. Most of the time you're like, oh, this is really good.Kevin Lewandowski:So if you were reading a script, and let's say maybe the structure wasn't where you think it should be, but the characters were very compelling and the characters were witty with what they were saying. Would you still be okay with that? Or vice versa if maybe the characters was a little bit too much speaking on the nose, but the structure and everything was spot on with that.Michael Jamin:Years ago we hired on a show, we were running a show and we were reading a ton of scripts, and we got to one where Act one was really good. Act two was really good, and Act three was not very good. And we hired him anyway because we were thought at that point, I was like, he did the first two parts really well, I could fix, or we could fix Act three, not a problem. And so I think that says a lot. You do act one, walk two. That's a big deal. He's a young writer.Kevin Lewandowski:Do you see a pattern with a lot of writers starting out is Act two where they struggle the most? Or is it act three or is it,Michael Jamin:Listen, I don't make it to act two. If Act one isn't good, I don't read further. I get another script. If I get a stack of scripts, who cares about Act two? Fact One sucks.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Ben Miller, what screenplays are the best to read, to learn from perhaps the West Wing pilot, which I read in a screenwriting class?Michael Jamin:Well, it depends what you want to write. If you want to write drama, then maybe West Wing pilot, I haven't read it, but you can also learn from reading band scripts. You can say to yourself, if long as you're honest, why am I not interested in this? And if you know what to look for, why is the script not compelling? Is the dialogue, is it the act breaks? Do they now you'll know what to look for? And then the trick is to be honest with yourself. There's been times even in my early career where I might pitch something to my partner and he'll say, if you read that in a script and someone else's script, you'd say, that sucks. And I go, really? I thought it was good. He goes, no, no, you would say it sucks. So then at that point, you got to go, okay, you got to back off. And you don't fight for it. You got to be honest with yourself.Kevin Lewandowski:I think another amazing thing in today's world that didn't really exist when you start out is pretty much any show that's out there right now, you can get access to some version of the script, whether it was a writer's draft or a production draft. IsMichael Jamin:That true? How do you find them?Kevin Lewandowski:I mean, if you just go to Google and you type in Breaking Bad Pilot script, there's going to be versions that you can download. It's always interesting to read those scripts and then watch the first episode and see how much did they change? Because I doubt you'll be able to find necessarily the final shooting draft online, but those first couple writer's drafts are available. And it's always interesting just to see you're reading it and you really, really like this part, but then you watch the episode and they took it out. You're like, oh, okay. That's interesting thatMichael Jamin:If you really wanted up your game, you could also watch the pilot of Breaking Bag and type out the script while you're watching it and then read it later and look for what are the act breaks, literally, what are the act breaks? How do they work? What's the dialogue on that? What's the last line of every scene? What's the dialogue? At the last line,Kevin Lewandowski:When I was doing writer's assistant script coordinate stuff, that's what I used to do to type faster just sit and watch TV and just type out the script as it was happening.Michael Jamin:Wow, good forKevin Lewandowski:You. Because in the room, they don't like it when you say, Hey, can you slow down a little bit? Can I hear that again? No, you got to go.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Okay. Part, what advice would you offer writers to adapt to the inevitable changes in developments expected in the screenwriting field and then years to come? I'm assuming that's in the context of chat, GPT, ai, that kind of stuff.Michael Jamin:Right now, that stuff is being regulated. I don't know of anybody who's using it in a writer's room. That's not to say I could easily be out of the loop, so I don't know. But right now, as far as I know, chat, GPT wasn't a tool. Any writer that I knew was clamoring for, because we all knew if it works, it's going to put us out of a job. So any changes? I don't know. I really don't know. I would just say maybe I'm naive, but stay the course. Figure out how to write without using a computer program or else, because if you're using the computer program, what do we need you for?Kevin Lewandowski:Right. Have you ever just to see what it would look like, just prompt, Chappie, just to write you a random scene just to see what it would look like, and then compare it to your knowledge you have of being a professional writer forMichael Jamin:Many years. Well, a couple of months ago, my partner decided to put some prompts into chat, GPT to come up with story ideas for Come FD for the show we were on. He just read 'em to me. We were both laughing at how terrible they were. It was like a paragraph of what's going to happen in this episode. And it was interesting how it was able to glean what the show was and what it was like, but it was just such an oversimplification of what the show, it lacked any nuance. It was kind of stupid. It was like, nah, that's not, I know. That's what it was almost like asking a 4-year-old what you think the show is and the four year olds. Yeah. Okay. You're right. It's about firemen. Okay, sure. But other than that, the ideas were terrible.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Another question from NRS creates, what are your thoughts on screenwriting competition websites like Cover Fly and the Blacklist? Is that a good way to get a script into people's hands? Thoughts on one act, scripts, one act plays? Do they have three acts?Michael Jamin:A lot of questions. I think you're the better person to answer the first part.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. So I've definitely submitted to some of those contests just to see A, if I would get any more B, what kind of feedback they would give. And a lot of times it's not very helpful feedback. And you've talked about, you have to question who these people are that are giving feedback, because chances are, they're not professional working writers right now. They would not have the time to go through 20, 30 scripts to give feedback. So chances are these could potentially be recent college graduates that are just doing what they think, what they learned in film school. And interestingly enough, I think Phil, he went through one competition. He sent me what the feedback was, and just reading it, I was like, this sounds very Chat, GPT ai. It was just very, because he sent me other ones he got, and I was like, okay, this feels like a person actually read this. This feels like it could have been put in chat, GPT, write a response based on what you think. And then when I said that to him, he was like, you might be right. He's like, you might be right. Interesting.Michael Jamin:Back when I was writing my book and I submitted to some publishers, whatever, a couple wrote back why they didn't like it, why they didn't want to option the book or whatever, and whatever. A couple of them, their feedback was like, no, it's clear to me you barely read it. Which I understand because these were low level publishing types editors. And on their weekend read, they probably had to read a couple dozen books, manuscripts, they're not going to give it full attention. And I was like, so some of the criticism, I was like, okay, that's a fair criticism. But no, but that is not, there's literally no truth in what you're saying there. You just phoned it in because you have to read so much over the weekend. So I don't know. Got to take, no one's going. I mean, it's the same thing for these websites. Are they really going to put their heart and soul into it? No. Why would TheyKevin Lewandowski:Don't care. They just want theMichael Jamin:Money. Yeah. Why would they? Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:You think about someone in your position giving feedback to a fellow writer that might take you two and a half hours, read the script, think about your notes, and then put 'em in a format to be able to explain them to the writer. And I don't think these people in those competitions are doing that. They probably just read it once and write down what they think. And it's funny how some of them, it's what would you rank the character dialogue on a one to 10, and they write six and a half. It's like,Michael Jamin:Where are you gettingKevin Lewandowski:That from? One is six and half. So then what would've gotten me an eight or an half or a nine?Michael Jamin:One of the things we just started doing on their website, if you have the course, our screenwriting course, I have a couple of friends who are high level writers who are willing to give notes. But here's the thing, you're going to pay. It's not cheap. You're going to pay these people to sit down and read your damn script for two or three hours and they're not getting $10 an hour. That's not what they're going to get. I don't know what you get paid for,Kevin Lewandowski:I guess. So is this a good way to get your script into people's hands? So I think, yeah, mean it's technically people's hands, but I don't know ifMichael Jamin:I don't think they're the right hands.Kevin Lewandowski:Feedback is going to be any valuable. And then thoughts on one X Scripts. One X plays, do they have three x inherently?Michael Jamin:That's an interesting question. Do they have three acts? I would say yes, in terms of the structure, in terms of what makes something compelling, but not necessarily, I guess I've written some stories in my book that don't fall into the traditional three Acts structure, but they come close. They definitely come close to it. And that's just because, well, it doesn't really matter why, but you can't go wrong. You really can't go wrong if you structure something like the way we teach.Kevin Lewandowski:So in your opinion, because heard, sometimes people use a five act structure, and I think for me, I think it's basically the same three act structure, but so act one will be act one, and then Act two isMichael Jamin:ActKevin Lewandowski:Two A and then Act two B. And so it's kind of broken up like that. So for me,Michael Jamin:Well, Shakespeare wrote that way. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:And he's all right. He did.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I mean, I just think it's easier not to write. I just think three is easier to get your head around. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. I think just the thought of hearing the words, so writing five acts, that just sounds like it can be a lot, but if you could be like, oh, three acts, okay, I can do that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. Anyone could do that. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Next topic, breaking in. DJ asked when starting out to obtain that experience, what sort of job should one be searching for, staff, writer, assistant, et cetera?Michael Jamin:You should be searching for the production assistant job anywhere, and eventually, after a season or two, see if you can move to a job that's closer to the writer's room. Physically, let's do what Kevin did. That's what he did.Kevin Lewandowski:And I think there's a staff writer that's obviously not entry level assistant. There's various assistant positions you could do production assistant, you can do showrunners, assistant executive assistant. I think one of the, or the terminologies people may get confused is writer's production assistant and then writer's assistant. And the writer's production assistant is the one that's responsible for getting the lunches, stocking the kitchen, making copies, things like that. And the writer's assistant is the one that sits in the room, types up the notes and the jokes that are being pitched. And they work closely with the script coordinator. And as you've said, many times, the writer's assistant is not an entry level job. It can be very intensive times.Michael Jamin:And for what's worth, I've worked with several assistants, either writer's, assistant production assistants, who've since gone on to become staff writers have had successful careers. So it's not like many. So Kevin, hopefully you'll be next.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, I'm hoping so too. Next question, Sammy. ak. So the best way to get a foot in the door to support and learn the biz write in assistant or pa, we kind of just answer that. Yeah. Production assistant is that entry level. You're kind of just the gopher and you're the whatever they kind of need you go do, and you prove yourself to those people above you. And they notice. Notice people notice when you're either calling it in or you're really going above and beyond to make whoever's ahead of you life a little bit easier. Yeah. All right. Now we got some miscellaneous. Oh, here's a fun question. Tulio, how close are you to officially publishing your book, Michael,Michael Jamin:It's already out tulio. You can go get it. You can find it. Sign copies are [email protected] slash book. Or you could search for a paper orchestra on Amazon or Barnes and Noble, or the audio book on Audible or Spotify or Apple. How about that?Kevin Lewandowski:Get the book. Everyone get the book. The comment to address from Jonathan Loudon, real world dilemma. I like this. Can't get experience without getting hired. Can't get hired without experience. That's why, who is such a reality?Michael Jamin:Well, but if you're starting off in an entry level position, you don't need to know anybody. You just have to put yourself out there. And then in terms of knowing someone later in your job, well, now you already know people. Now you broke because entry levels, literally, you have a pulse in a car. So I find that it's a convenient excuse. Put yourself out there, and Kevin, you didn't have any contacts when you broke into Hollywood. None. So there you go.Kevin Lewandowski:You just got to knock on some doors. I think people that work in the industry, they know kind of how it works. Once you break in, you become a pa, and you make those network connections with production coordinators that you've worked with and people on the show, and you build those genuine relationships and you do good. Then when they go to the next show and they're like, Hey, we need someone, then they'll reach out to you andMichael Jamin:They're not reaching out for you because they're as a favor to you. They're reaching out to you because we need to hire someone. And I don't really want to spend days interviewing.Kevin Lewandowski:I already know you can do the job. It's so much easier just to bring you aboard.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right. It's not like a favor to you. It's a favor to them.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah.Michael Jamin:You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A Collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time, his knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker View says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book, and now back to our show.Kevin Lewandowski:Next question, all nighters cinema, what makes your script stand out? If it's a book adaptation and the story isn't your original story,Michael Jamin:Well, do you have the rights to adapt? A book is one question. So if you don't, I probably wouldn't adapt it. And that's not to say that when people think you adapt a book, you still have to have these act break pops. These scenes have to unfold. It's not like books are a slam dunk to adapt. I mean, there's definitely some art and craft that has to be applied to turning into a script. So that's how you make it stand out.Kevin Lewandowski:And I think one of the other things you like to say is if you have a book, there might be a few different stories happening throughout that book. And in your paper orchestra, one of the examples you get, oh, I forget what it was called about the swing dance, and I forgot that chapterMichael Jamin:Was called Yes, swing and a Miss.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. As you said, there was other stuff happening at that point in your life, but it was just this story was the one you wanted to tell. Of course you were going to work and doing stuff like that, but this was the story you wanted to tell.Michael Jamin:Right. And also, how many times have you seen they've adapted a book, I don't know, a popular book into a TV show movie? And sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad. It's because it's not as simple as simply typing the book.Kevin Lewandowski:And a lot of times people say the book was even better or the book was better anyways. And I mean, it's hard to take 300 pages of a book and consented toMichael Jamin:An hour and a half movie. Right.Kevin Lewandowski:David Sallow, what if you a show idea that you have done the work on and think it uniquely speaks to the present moment? Are there any shortcuts possible there or noMichael Jamin:Shortcuts to what? You got to write a script. Yeah. There's no shortcuts to write in a good script, and there's no shortcuts to selling it. There's no shortcuts anywhere. Shortcuts. When does shortcuts ever work? I don't know. Where are the shortcuts? Yeah, little Ed riding Hood. Other than that, in real life, you got to put the work in. Right.Kevin Lewandowski:Do you ever watch the, there's a documentary about the South Park creators and how from they, from blank page to delivering the episode, how many days do you think,Michael Jamin:Well, I know they're super fast, so I would say five,Kevin Lewandowski:Six.Michael Jamin:Six.Kevin Lewandowski:Okay. Six days. That's very fast. They are delivering it like a half hour before it's supposed to. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And that's because the animation process is so crude that they can do it so quickly, but that's fast,Kevin Lewandowski:And we've just gotten used to it that way. So I think with them in an interesting way, that's why their shows seem like their current and present, because something could have happened in the news last week, and then that episode could air next week. Whereas other animation shows, and I know you've worked in animation, sometimes it's seven, eight months before that episode,Michael Jamin:Or it could be nine months, nine months animated show. So yeah, you don't do anything top of one within in an animated show, not the ones I've done.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Next question. What if I wrote lyrics to the theme song? Is that okay to include? I think this might be in the context of one of the things you say in your scripts, don't write music cues. Don't write, don't put song lyrics in there, or something like that.Michael Jamin:I mean, if you think you got fantastic lyrics and you're going to really impress the hell out of someone, but you still have to, when I'm reading the script, I have to imagine what the music is, and I'm not going to imagine the music. And I suppose you can write the lyrics and maybe some people will read it and some won't. So it's up to you. Do you really think it's fantastic or not?Kevin Lewandowski:I had a couple scripts that I put part of a song in there and then listening to, I'm like, no, it's coming out, taking it out.Michael Jamin:In my opinion, there's really no, I'm not crazy about reading that.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah,Michael Jamin:I mean, maybe others are, I don't know.Kevin Lewandowski:Well, I think, I think back to my script, it was I just kind of being lazy. Could I take that three eighths of a page and add something in there that's going to help move the storyline further, or was I just looking for a, what's a funny moment I could have right now?Michael Jamin:Right. Okay.Kevin Lewandowski:Let's see. From Aaron, in terms of recognizing good writing, writing, what is considered too much in terms of providing direction to actors, description of character, thoughts and emotions, et cetera?Michael Jamin:The less the better, in my opinion. You don't want let the actors do their job, and if you feel you can't convey the anger in a scene or the love in a scene with dialogue and you're yelling at the actors, do it this way, then you haven't done your job as the writer do your job. Not everyone else's. As far as action lines go, I am of the camp that the shorter the better because most writers or most people reading do not want to read your action line. I suppose one day, if get, I think when you get more successful, if you're Aaron Sorkin, you can write whatever the hell you want. You're, because he writes his actions line. I imagine poetry, it's probably his action lines are probably just as interesting as his dialogue because he's such a great writer, but don't count on it when you're starting off.Kevin Lewandowski:I was reading something, I forgot who the actor was, but they said, the actor always requested that their script have commas and apostrophes taken out of dialogue because they felt like they didn't want someone telling them how to say things. And I was like, I can respect as an actor, but I was like, that poor script coordinator, they have to go through that whole script again and take everything out.Michael Jamin:That's a little bit much to me. It seems like putting a comma there is like that's just grammar. And if they wanted to take it out, I think they should do it themselves, but whatever,Kevin Lewandowski:From Jonathan Loudon, again, how many feature films have you written, pitched, but never sold?Michael Jamin:Well, we wrote one completely as a spec, and that did not sell, but that got us a producer interested in our writing, and then we wrote two more that did sell as pitches. We pitched them first, then we got paid to write the script. And as far as I can remember, I don't think we wrote any other feature scripts. I think we maybe had some ideas that were batting around, but we never actually pitched or wrote, but we work mostly in tv.Kevin Lewandowski:So do you know, because from what I can recall, you've never sold a feature that actually went into production, correct. Right,Michael Jamin:Right. They they never do.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. And how do you think you would feel, because as you say, tv, the showrunner head writer has the final say, and on a feature, it's the director that has the final say. I worked with someone, his name's Steve Rudnick, and he wrote Space Jam and the Santa Clause movies with Tim Allen, and he told me this story how he was at a baseball game and he saw someone walking down the aisle and it had a Space jam cast and crew jacket. And he asked the guy and he was like, can I ask you where you got that jacket? That's a really cool jacket. And he's like, oh, I worked on production. This was all our rap gifts, and Steve never got one because writers usually aren't part of the production aspect onMichael Jamin:Feature, and he was accredited writer on it. Right. That's what an actor thought he was. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's probably common. I don't know why people want to become writers on movies. I mean, it would be cool, but maybe he was heavily rewritten. Maybe he was, I don't know.Kevin Lewandowski:He was so bummed. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah. He wasn't invited to anything.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Right. Geo, could you elaborate on the things not to say to executives or some examples of what the producer said?Michael Jamin:What the producer said? I'm not sure I answered the question.Kevin Lewandowski:So can you elaborate on the things, so I guess as a writer, and maybe you gave your script to an executive and they were giving you feedback or said, Hey, maybe do this, do this. How would you respond to those notes?Michael Jamin:Yeah, you want to be positive. Great. We'll work on that. Thank you. Good idea. Interesting thought. We'll definitely do our best with that, and then later, hopefully you can take 90% of the notes and the ones you can't take, you say, I think we address the spirit of your note. Even if we couldn't address your notes or this one, we couldn't make it work occasionally, but you're doing 90% of the notes. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:I think the phrase I would always hear on notes calls is, okay, well, yeah, we'll take a look at it. We'll take a look at that. Yeah,Michael Jamin:We'll take a look at it. Yeah. We,Kevin Lewandowski:Next question from Cody, with short seasons, freelance opportunities have mostly gone away, but are there still opportunities for freelance, and if so, how are writers polled in for those?Michael Jamin:I don't know. That's a good question because that's a question. You'd have to look that up with the Writer's Guild. I don't remember on our last show there, I don't recall ever having those guys doing freelance, giving off freelance episodes to anyone. So it used to be a Writer's Guild mandate if the show was a certain length that they had to give out a certain number of freelancers. And now maybe they don't have to, but I wouldn't either way get it out of your head that you're ever going to sell a freelance episode because it's just so over my 28 years, I think I've sold maybe three freelance episodes and I would do more. It's not a problem. It's just that they're really hard to get.Kevin Lewandowski:And I think a lot of times what happens in writer's rooms is those writer's assistants and script coordinators that have proved their worth for a couple of seasons. If that opportunity comes for them to get a freelance episode, the showrunner helps 'em out with that, and that helps them get into the Writer's Guild and things likeMichael Jamin:That. That's usually a bone you throw those support staff after they've been there a couple of years.Kevin Lewandowski:That's a nice bonus. It's a nice check to get. Next question, David Campbell. Does the creator continue to have involvement or do you teach them on the job?Michael Jamin:If someone creates the show and they are not the showrunner, which just happened on a couple shows we've done. We were not the showrunner and the creator had involved. They were on the writing staff, but they didn't have any say. They didn't have the final say or anything. If we are the showrunner, whoever's the runner has final say. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Next question, nerds and friends, how many writers' rooms are virtual remote nowadays? What is the path to becoming a showrunner? Is it a writer pivoting into that role? I can imagine producing experience helps.Michael Jamin:No, so a showrunner is the head writer. The way you become a showrunner is by being a writer on many shows and being good at writing, and then the producing aspect of the job. You kind of learn on the job as you rise up the ranks. You don't have to take a course or there's no certification, and it's something you can fake.Kevin Lewandowski:For me, I never really understood what the word producer meant. No one in the context of television, because it's working in the industry, you learn, okay, writers can be producers, but then sometimes accountants, if they're high enough, they can also be producers. And not every producer is necessarily like the creative vision. Some of them deal with the money aspect of it.Michael Jamin:Yeah. They're non-writing producers or non-writing executive producers, they'reKevin Lewandowski:Called. Yeah. Next question, K with an asterisk next to it. Are series filmed for streaming services similar to TV regarding creative control for the show runner?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yes.Kevin Lewandowski:Easy question. Yeah, all-nighter cinema. How different is trying to greenlight a serial TV show versus a mini series?Michael Jamin:It just depends on what the network, usually they're buying series. They're not buying mini series there. Sometimes they're buying limited series. It just depends on the network. And I wouldn't even approach, again, your goal is to write one great script as a writing sample, and it's not to time the market and figure out who's buying what. Can you write a script? Answer that question first,Kevin Lewandowski:Right? If a studio buys your pilot but ends up passing and an exec at another studio is interested, how realistic is it that they'll buy it againMichael Jamin:If the first one will buy it?Kevin Lewandowski:I don't know. I'm wondering if they're asking just because one studio passes on your script, does that mean every studio is going to pass on it?Michael Jamin:No. No. Usually if you're lucky, you pitch to five studios and one buys it. That's how they don't all want to buy it. You're lucky if one wants to buy it. But again, what's frustrating about all these questions that we're hearing is everyone's saying, how do I make money selling a script? And no one's saying, how do I write a good script? Everyone is already assuming that. It's just so damn frustrating. It's like, guys, what do you think? How do you think this is going to work? It's not about the meeting. It's about writing a damn good script. First thing's first. So I don't know, what are you going to do? I yell into the wind. People don't listen to me on this.Kevin Lewandowski:I listen. They'll listen. They'll listen. Yeah. I mean, I think there's almost this weird delusion that people think they're going to move out here within a year. They're going to have their own show. And I was just talking to someone the other day that they're going to USC, and she was talking about kind of her timeline with things, and she said, I want to give myself five years from when I graduate in 2025 to try to get into a writer's room. And when she said that to me, I said, very realistic. That's not too quick that, because there's a lot of luck of, IMichael Jamin:Thought you were going to say have her own show on the air.Kevin Lewandowski:No, no. She was very much, if I can be in a writer's room in five years. So I thought, yeah, because tough, because if you can get on that show that season one, it's not a hit yet, then it becomes a hit that can definitely fast track you a little bit. And my struggle has been, none of the pilots I've worked on have gotten picked up and shows have gotten canceled. And I'd like to believe that's not my fault, but it's hard to look at the No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.Michael Jamin:But yeah. But it's a little frustrating when people ask these questions sound to me like when I hit a grand Slam, who do I high five first? They're like, dude, can you get on base? Do you know how to get a base hit? What are you talking about? Just get a base hit first. So that's what it sounds like to me. And I wish people would just have more realistic expectations and would take a little more, everyone's assuming they already knew how to do the hard part.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Next question, given that streaming has changed the face of sitcom series writing, how do you feel about the future of the industry? Are there days of having full writer's room and staff over?Michael Jamin:It certainly seems that way, but who knows right now, if you follow what's going on, it seems like, it seems like everything's becoming, we're slowly moving back to the old days. There's going to be fewer streamers. They're going to be consolidation. They're already talking about these big streamers merging. And when that happens, things will change, but we don't really know. Right now, the industry's at a crossroads. They're not picking up a lot of shows. Now. They will pick up start. That will happen. And imagine a couple of, it can't go on much longer. They got to have to start pulling the trigger and start making TV shows again. So we don't know. We're at the crossroads,Kevin Lewandowski:Because I think you said back when you were working on, just Shoot Me In, I think you said King of the Hill, there was more than 15 writers on King. KingMichael Jamin:Of the Hill. We had 20 writers in King of the Hill, and we were do 22 episodes in a season.Kevin Lewandowski:And how many were on Just Shoot Me?Michael Jamin:Well, let's see. In the beginning, I would say it's closer to maybe 10 or so, maybe 12 at some point.Kevin Lewandowski:And in your experience, do you think comedy rooms always have more writersMichael Jamin:Than drama? I don't know. I mean, it just really depends on the budget of the show and how many episodes you're going to be doing.Kevin Lewandowski:I think I was watching something about Breaking Bad, and I think they had six writers.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? That's it.Kevin Lewandowski:Wow. On why Women Kill. We had five.Michael Jamin:The thing about drama is that you don't have to, it is easier in the sense that when you're writing a comedy, you still need to have that structure. You still need to come up with a story that is engaging, but it also has to be funny. But when you're doing the drama, you just need to come up with an engaging story, and it doesn't have to be funny, and you don't have to punch up the lines. And in that sense, I do think it's a little easier, but that's not to say writing Breaking Bad is easy. I mean, what a great show that works.Kevin Lewandowski:Right, right. Next question from maybe, are there tutorials and Final Draft, a proper guide for making your script presentation acceptable?Michael Jamin:What do you think? I don't know. I haven't looked at the tutorials.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. I mean, I think the nice thing about Final Draft is they have pre-built templates that you can use. So if you're writing a Multicam, it'll prebuilt that template and everything will automatically be capitalized for you. And same thing with Single Cam. And I think one of the things you always say is when you hand your script to someone, they're not going to know you use Final Draft or one of these other programs to write the script. They're just going to get a printed out version. And I think there's minimal things you need to do, make sure the dialogue is in the middle of the page and certain things are capitalized, and there's a certain format formatting of that. But Final Draft can take care of all that too. So when you're done writing, you just hit file, export as PDF, and that's it. You're done. All the four is done.Michael Jamin:I mean, final Draft, like you said, has those templates, and it'll make your script look like a script, which is great. You got a script, you got something that looks like a script, but does it read like a script?Kevin Lewandowski:Right. Har Draft does not do that for you. Yeah, it won'tMichael Jamin:Do that.Kevin Lewandowski:Michael's course does.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I hope,Kevin Lewandowski:Lorenzo, given your friendship with the late David Bellini, have you got any insights on Italian films, TV industry, in your opinion? Is there any difference? Thank you.Michael Jamin:From what I knew from David. David when he was a lot, the difference is enormous. It's a whole different film structure over there. It's not so much of an industry as it is. I don't know. It sounded like really hard. And he was pretty successful. He worked on a bunch of shows, and he moved to LA to Hollywood because he was like, this is too crazy here. This is just not enough work. So I think it was a miracle that he was as successful as he was there, but it's a whole different ballgameKevin Lewandowski:If the script doesn't have scenes in it. How should it be written? Is it just dialogue and descriptions? Do you have any advice for someone who wants to be a script doctor?Michael Jamin:Okay. The script does have to have scenes in it. It can't be all one scene. That's not going to be acceptable. A script doctor is not really, that's some bullshit that people say on the internet. No one I've ever met ever called themselves a script doctor. We're all screenwriters. And sometimes you sell your own work, and sometimes you're brought in to rewrite somebody else's, and there's no script doctor. You don't get a degree and you don't wear a stethoscope. And that's not a job. It's just sometimes will get paid to rewrite someone else's script, but you'll only get that job if you're a really good writer and you've written some really good scripts on your own. And then when you do, usually you're like, hell, I'll just write. I want to write my own stuff. And you're brought in to change someone else's script because it's like, all right, someone's giving me money and here's a job, and I'm in between jobs, so I'll do it.Kevin Lewandowski:There's no shortcuts. A couple more questions, Aaron. How many followers, subscribers would someone need to have on social media for that to be interesting and asset to a studio or showrunner?Michael Jamin:Literally have no idea. And I'm not sure it would be interesting to a showrunner at all as far as the studio, in terms of being a writer. You're not expected to have a social media following at all. I just happen to have one, but it's not right. No one's, no one ever asked me, no one really cares. The benefit is I can promote my own stuff. I have a following, but for a writer, you don't need that.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. And then our last question, is it okay to make the size of the words on the title page a little bit bigger?Michael Jamin:I suppose it is. I don't try to do anything fancy, but I don't know why you want to. It's okay if you want to. It's not desperate, but I don't know. I try to make it, I want my script to look like just an ordinary script. I want the pages themselves, the dialogue to stand out. I'm not really trying to make the cover page stand out.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, I think it's like when writing any paper you did in college or whatever the title is, 18 font, and then the stuffy writing is 12 font or whatever.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you can do that.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. I think one of the things you said is the title page. No one necessarily cares about that. If you put a fancy image on there, that's not going to, people aren't going to be like, oh, we got to hire this person. We got to hire this person right now.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Don't even give any thought to the title. I mean, really. You're not going to fool anybody. So yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Well, that is all the questions we have from that webinar.Michael Jamin:Wow. Excellent. Kevin, you did really well. You're a natural here. Thanks. Yeah. Alright, everyone. Thank you. Please continue coming to our webinars. We do 'em every few weeks. To sign up, go to michael jamin.com/webinar. I got a book out. I hope you all get it. Sign copies are available @michaeljamin.com slash book. And if you want to come see me on tour, go to michael jamin.com/upcoming. Kevin, where can people find you?Kevin Lewandowski:I'm on social media, Kevin Lewandowski. Sorry it's a very long last name. It gets butchered a lot, but I'm there. And yeah, I occasionally make appearances with Michael on these webinars and things like that. So yeah. Thank you all for who's been coming to the webinars and checking out Michael's stuff. Just go to michael jamen.com and just start clicking around. There's a bunch of stuff you can get his free scripts, stuff he's written. There's free lessons up there. Every podcast we do gets uploaded there. You can spend hours on that websites. Just go there, click around, buy the book byMichael Jamin:The book. Thank you so much buddy. Alright. You're just going to stick around. Kevin's going to be back next week for another episode. I believe it's next week. We will see when it drops, but he's going to be back around for another one. Alright, everyone, until then, keep writing, keep being creative and all that stuff. Thanks so much.Michael Jamin:Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most. Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More great stuff coming next week.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/screenwriters-need-to-hear-this/exclusive-content

On this week's episode, we have actor Jamie Kaler (My Boys, Tacoma FD, Robot Chicken and many many more) and we talk about his career path as well as his experiences doing stand-up. There's so much more so make sure you tune in.Show NotesJamie KalerIMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0435695/Jamie Kaler on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_KalerJamie Kaler on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamiekaler/?hl=enJamie Kaler on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/jamiekalerA Paper Orchestra on Website: https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptJamie Kaler:He goes, Hey, just so you know, when you do watch it, we were running long for time. So we cut the tag. I go, you mean the reveal where I kissed the woman? He goes, yeah, we ran out of time and we cut it. I go, then everything I did up to that moment has no justification whatsoever because this is the craziest thing. He goes, I know. He goes, what are you going to do with tv? I go, all, whatever. And I moved on and I was like, couldn't care less. ButMichael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, today I'm talking about acting with my guest, Jamie Kaler. This guy, before I bring him on this guy's credits are crazy. He works a lot and so I'm going to blow, yeah, blow through. I'm going to do the abridge version. If not, we'll be here all day, but I'm going to go way back. I'm on IM db now. I'm only doing the ones that I decide are highlights. But Jag, he's been on Fringe Friends. Suddenly. Susan Carnival, third Rock in the Sun, king of Queens, grounded for Life, married to the Kelly's Arrested Development, Spanglish, seventies show. What else Will and Grace, the Family Stone? Who remembers that? Monk New Adventures of Old Christine Sons and Daughters. How I Met Your mother, my boys. We know 'em from that. And then did I say Parenthood? Did I say shake it up? Did I say Austin and Allie? Did I say Teachers of the Year? I don't remember. I'm skipping crazy Ex-girlfriend. Jesus, dude. It doesn't end the middle Dads in Parks. Oh, we'll talk about that. Heather's robot Chicken. American Housewife. Most recently Taco fd where my partner and I created the character of Polanski. Jamie, that was exhausting. Are we done with the interview now?Jamie Kaler:Honestly, it was so much fun being here, man. All right, everybody, take care. See you later.Michael Jamin:That was such good advice. Sorry, you guys all missed it. Dude, you've been around. How did you get into acting? How does someone get into acting? By the way,Jamie Kaler:People ask me nowadays, and I go, dude, it's nothing. I mean now it's like don't even move to la just start a YouTube channel in upstate Minnesota and try to blow up. And then once you have a following, then you're set.Michael Jamin:But we were talking about on your podcast, the parent lounge, but I know you think it's like a burden, but I think it actually works in your advantage to you, to your advantage because you're really good at it. You're good. You have a great social media presence. You're quick on your feet. It seems to me this, even though it requires more work for you, it actually works in your favor. No,Jamie Kaler:You mean social media doing it this way? Yeah, of course it is, but I already did it. So now I'm kind of the same way that I used to go buy wigs and glue on mustaches and actually lit myself on fire on stage at Acme Comedy Theater when I was doing crazy shows on Friday and Saturday nights in the nineties with that fervor of what are we doing today? We're going to Goodwill, we're going to get some costumes, here we go. And I remember renting equipment, trying to shoot shorts and trying to clerks, and Ed Burns had made the brothers McMullan or whatever, and it was like, come on, we're making film. It was super hard and it was painful and it was costly. And nowadays you can do it with your phone. But I'm older, I don't quite have the drive. I also am watching two little kids.So the time in the day is where I used to go, this is my day. I'm going to go do this now. I'm like, I dropped the kids at school. I had to go to the cleaners. I taking care of the two kids. I got to pick them up. I'm coaching soccer today. So yes, I will say though, especially watching you and you're a writer, but now you have to become a social media guru to get people to see what you've created and you're an artist. But nowadays, gosh, I was posting something this morning about the pregnant pause is gone pretty soon. Humans are going to evolve where the eyes instead of side by side are over the top of each other because horizontal's over everything's vertical. We need to flip our eyes. And years from now, no one will take a breath because we've dictated that. The breath makes people lose attention though. You can take a pause. People goMichael Jamin:Done. IJamie Kaler:Can't. He took a breath. I can't.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean, here's the thing. So I just had this conversation yesterday. I dropped an audio audiobook, and so some woman said I was doing a live, she goes, oh, I bought your audiobook. I love it, but I listened to it on one and a quarter speed. But I'm like, but when I take a pause, it's because I want to put a pause there. I want to give you a moment to soak it in. It's not arbitrary.Jamie Kaler:I wanted to take a Richard Pryor act from his comedy special and cut all the air out of it. And so you would take a 50 minute, one hour special where there's a groove. He's in the moment. It would be like if you took Buddy Rich and you took all the space between the drum beats out. You're like, a lot of the art is in the space, and we have forgotten that. And now it's like it's a machine gun or people's brains shut off.Michael Jamin:This is something when we're shooting a sitcom, often, we'll tell the actor, make sure you hold for a laugh here. Hold for the laugh. You will get one. Yeah. What do we do about this?Jamie Kaler:Well, I don't know because I was watching, have you watched Show Gun?Michael Jamin:No. Am I supposed to watch that?Jamie Kaler:It's new. It's based on the book. Oh my gosh, it's glorious. I had never read the book. 16 hundreds. Futile Japan, A simple, brutal, vicious life of it's gorgeous. They had a full society. It's like the 16 hundreds. Wait,Michael Jamin:Where am I watching this? What can I get?Jamie Kaler:It's on FX and on Hulu and Portuguese and Portugal and England are the two powerhouses on the earth, and they are at war, and they're basically fighting for ownership of the east, even though the east are, they're like, wait, we're here. No one's going to own us. So it's all about that, but it's just this beautifully, I mean, it's like art. It's like going to the museum, seeing this story unfold, but people's brains nowadays, some do just riddling. 30 seconds of garbage on TikTok will get a gillion times more views than that. Because I talked to somebody who said, Hey, have you seen Shogun? Someone's like, oh, it just seems slow. And I was like, it's one of the greatest stories of all time. It's one of the bestselling books of all time. It's history and gorgeous and art, and it's beautifully shot. And they're like, ah, boring. I don't have time for that crap.Michael Jamin:We have, right? So what do we doJamie Kaler:If everything accelerates? There has to be a point where the human brain, it's like when they go, oh, this TV's 4K, and you're like, dude, I'm in my fifties. I can't even see 5K. I can't see any K anymore. It's like so resolution. It doesn't really matter. At some point your brain can't acceptMichael Jamin:It. Well, worse than that, so my TVs, I have a nice plasma plasma, but it's probably 15 years old at a cost a fortune when I got it. But the new ones, the resolution's so clear, it kind of looks like you're watching a bad TV show. You know what I'm saying? You watch a expensive movie and it looks like it's bad TV because I'm seeing too much.Jamie Kaler:The human face is not supposed to be seen with that much resolution. You see people and you're like, oh, that dude had a rough nightMichael Jamin:Where youJamie Kaler:Used to be able to hide it, and now you're like, no, no, no, no.Michael Jamin:Right? But then now have you had these conversations with your agent and your managers, or is this just when we were talking about building your social media following, are they telling you this or are you just like, your friends are doing it now? I got to do it too.Jamie Kaler:You mean why try to build this? Well, it's also, listen, it's funny because my wife will give me grief sometimes, and she goes, your stories are too slow. Which is crazy because I'm one of the fastest speakers who's ever lived. Sometimes when I'm working, people go, you need to bring it down a little bit. But on social media, if I don't want to sit and take a 92nd video and edit it down to a minute to take out the 30 seconds of pauses, because some guy, but that's the dilemma. Everything's the lowest common denominator. The jokes are I see something that blows up and I go, that was a great joke when George Carlin told that in 1972, and it was really well written and scripted, and now you've kind of bastardized it and you've put it into a ten second with no, your speaking voice is intolerable. But I get it, that's what people want. They're scrolling through and you're like, that's how it works. So I'm also a dinosaur man. It's like my daughters are 10 and they're already do flying through stuff. I mean, I don't know how to stop it.Michael Jamin:Do you know people, I mean, obviously back in the day when you'd go to auditions now everything's you submit. But back in the day, I'm sure you were going to audition and they're the same 10 actors that you would see trying out for the same part. Do you think they're doing the same thing that you're doing building of social media presence?Jamie Kaler:Well, I think you have to. Nowadays, honestly, I see that the social media presence, it is number one, you don't have to go learn how to act. You don't have to learn how to be a standup comic. You don't have to learn these skills and slowly build your way up the top. You do it because you're a personality. People are intrigued, not by people who are, they're intrigued by humans. It's a voyeuristic thing, I think, where people are like, you'll see somebody and they're just talking to camera. They're not even good speakers. There's something off. There's a crazy story. And maybe they've just been doing it for 15 straight years and built up a following and put some money behind it, put some ads, made sure they got some clicks. Maybe they bought a few followers, and you're like, but the craft, the art of what you do as a writer. I mean, is it slowly falling? But that's the problem nowadays with my kids, we just got the report cards and really good grades, but you can see on the standardized test, they're reading is starting to slip because kids don't read. It's too slow for them. Their brain is like, well, they just can't slow. People cannot slow down anymore. And it's Where does it goMichael Jamin:From here? I dunno, but I have to say that. So a lot of this is, I don't think this is coming from producers. I was on a show a few years ago, maybe let's say 10 years ago, and the studio or the network rather wanted us to cast a guy with a big social media following for this role. And I'm like, wait, really? Why? What about an act? Can we just get an actor? This Hollywood? Aren't there actors everywhere? And it's because networks are having a hard time marketing their show. And these people with followings, they can market their own show.Jamie Kaler:Kevin Hart. I mean, I remember something. They were like, well, you're going to post about the movie. And he's like, if you pay me, and they were like, why would we pay you? You're in the movie. He goes, yeah, you paid me for my acting services now you want me to be your publicist. If you want me to publicize this film, you will pay me for it because I accumulated these 50 million followers on my own. Why would I just give it to you?Michael Jamin:But here's where I'm curious about that though. I'm not sure if he doesn't post, I get his point, why should I do the marketing as well? But if he doesn't do the marketing, it'll hurt him for his next movie because it won't perform as well in the box office. You know what I'm saying?Jamie Kaler:Yes. It's a double-edged sword. But I also think he doesn't care.Michael Jamin:HeJamie Kaler:Doesn't care. He doesn't care because he has that following. He will, and they'll put it into the budget. I'm sure the agents and managers are like, all right, so this is his money that you're going to pay him. This is part of the marketing fee you're going to. And listen, I totally understand it. I'm sure I've lost parts because people have gone over to go, his following is not as big as this guy. At the end of the day, could a ton of other people played Polanski? Absolutely. Would they have huge followings? Yes, of course. So I feel lucky anytime I get a job to promote it, I feel like I'm qualified for that job. But I also know it's, you look back at the history of film and Philip Seymour Hoffman died, the five projects he had ready to go, they just replaced him.He's arguably one of the greatest actors of our generation. Nobody missed a beat. So are we all replaceable? Absolutely. Are we lucky to be in the business? Yeah. I mean, I would argue writers are more necessary because you're creating the project to start with. But as an actor, unless you're Daniel Day Lewis or somebody who's that crazy of a craft, then it's about chemistry, I think. Anyway. But you have to, those people are trying to get their films out, and so there's so much white noise on a daily basis that to cut through that, they're like, well, if this guy has 5 million followers and he puts up one post, what they don't see is that only 3% of those 5 million people even see. But thisMichael Jamin:Is where I think the studios and the networks have really screwed up royally, is that they haven't figured out a way to build their own brand. So my wife and I will watch a movie or a TV show, we'll get halfway through it and all the night, we'll say, let's watch the rest tomorrow. Almost all the time. I forget where I watched it, and now I have to search, was it on Netflix? Did I watch it on Amazon? Where did I watch this? Because there's no brand anymore without a brand. They can't market their shows. They have to rely on other me and you to market their shows. It puts us in the driver's seat, not them. This is like a major blunder on their parts, I feel.Jamie Kaler:It's not just them. I'd say standup clubs, back in the day, you did a bunch of shows. You finally put a tape together, you sent it to a club. The club had a following, the club had the following. And you knew if you went to that club, you were going to see Richard, Jenny, Brian Regan, Jerry Seinfeld, you knew these guys. Whatever show you went to, you were going to be surprised, but you'd be like, man, those guys are really funny. Nowadays, the club is literally a rental space that you bring the following to. That's why they book influencers who have millions of followers, and then they get on stage. And I guess some are good and some maybe don't have, it's a different skill levelMichael Jamin:When you go, do you still perform comedy standJamie Kaler:Up? I do. I used to tour a ton before the kids, and I was on the road all the time. And then once the kids were born, I didn't really want to do that as much. So now I stay home. So I kind of cherry pick gigs to go out for. And the road's a lot different, I feel like, than it used to be.Michael Jamin:So do you feel the quality of the standups, they're not quite as good anymore? Some people are, would you sound like old men? Which one is it?Jamie Kaler:Absolutely. And I say that all the time. I'm a dinosaur. But I will say that maybe the skill nowadays is not being a standup comic, but being a social media manipulator. And I mean that it's always been the skill. People used to hire publicists even back then, and I never did. And they'd be in People Magazine and I'd be like, what's the point of all that? And then as I got older, I was like, oh, fame allows you to do the jobs you want to do. That's really the trick. But I mean, to be Tom Cruise, I never wanted that because that dude can't leave his house. He can't just go to the supermarket, can't go to a park. I never wanted that. But that makes him and DiCaprio, those are the guys that are Johnny Greenlight. They get the first choice of scripts. And so they are allowed to do these amazing jobs that because how many people do you think nowadays can sell a picture?Michael Jamin:Oh, yeah. I mean, that's the whole thing. Or can open, I don't know. Do you think it's more or less, I guess I would imagine it's probably less now. I mean, because celebrities changed. What do you think?Jamie Kaler:I think the era of the movie Star is over. IMichael Jamin:Think Tom CruiseJamie Kaler:And Brad Pitt and DiCaprio, are they going to be the end of, and Damon are going to be the end of it? I mean, no. You see one of her on Netflix and it's like a TikTok, Charlie Delio. I haven't seen it. Maybe she's a wonderful actress. I don't know. But you go up through that ranks and all of a sudden you have 12 million followers or whatever, and then you could sell, I mean, it's Kardashian really was, we all gave her grief, but in retrospect, they were the smartest people in the room. They saw it coming to their credit and made a gillion dollars off of it, whether that's what you want to do with your life. But my kids kids want to start a YouTube page and a TikTok, and I'm like, she's 10. She's 10 years old. That'sMichael Jamin:Too soon.Jamie Kaler:Yeah. I mean, can everyone on earth just be, can we keep an economy running if everyone's just an influencer? I don't know.Michael Jamin:Well, there's the big question, right? If everyone's trying to, yeah, IJamie Kaler:Mean, look at what you're doing. You wrote a book, you sat down, probably took quite a while. It's a very good book. Thank you. I've read it and it's like, but the point is, almost everybody's wrote in a book now, and everybody's a standup comic and everyone's a performer. And back when I did it, it was like people were like, oh my God, you do standup. I'm would never do that. I'm terrified now. I'll be it like a supermarket. And some woman's like, some grandma's like, oh, I do stand up every Tuesday night at retirement home. And you're like, it'sMichael Jamin:Not. But I also feel like you're reinventing yourself, though. I mean, that's got to be exciting and interesting. No, orJamie Kaler:Of course it is. Of course it is. I do listen. I love doing it. And everyone else, it's a love hate relationship because I'll think of something immediately, I'll put together a little funny bit that I, it's like a standup bit or something, and then I'll be able to share it with all my fans and they will respond accordingly. And you're like, oh yeah, this actually is a pretty good, I just also think we're the learning curve. We're the first generation to go through all this.Michael Jamin:Wait, let me tell you how I hoard myself out this morning. So I wondered, because I'm posting a lot to promote my book. I'm doing a lot of lives, and I'm like, I see other people do lives, and I'm not sure what that magic is. They're cooking eggs or whatever. Are we watching this person cooking eggs? Is this right? So I'm like, all right. I told my wife, today's pushup day. So I'm like, all right, I guess maybe I'll just do pushups and people will that work. And I did pushups on live and I don't know, 20 people watched. And I was like, I felt kind of stupid about the whole thing, but people were watching, I don't know, is this what I got to do now,Jamie Kaler:Pushups, I fear it is. If that's what you want to do for a living, I think this is, if you want to be in this business, I think that's the necessity of it. To be honest, I'm not sure I would've ever signed up for this if I knew, although when I was younger, I probably would've like, Ugh, I would've been Truman shown the wholeMichael Jamin:Thing, right? But you wouldn't.Jamie Kaler:I do wonder, my kids, I think they were at their friend's house or something, and they Googled me. They told me, and they're getting to that age, and I'm like, uhoh, what did you watch? And they watched some crazy video I did where I said something stupid or whatever. And I don't know if every moment of our lives is supposed to be captured. I don't know what the answer is. I have such a love hate certain days. I wake up and I go, even this morning I was telling you I was writing a bit about something or other. And then another day I'll wake up and I go, I don't want to do any of it. I just want to go golf. And that was the beauty. I became an actor because it was the easiest thing. I worked hard to become a good actor. I took classes, worked on my craft, but I wasn't, I wasn't on 24 7 trying,Michael Jamin:Tell me if you feel this way, because if I don't, I try to post almost every day. And if I take one or two days off, that turns into three or four. You know what I'm saying? It gets easy not to do it.Jamie Kaler:Of course, of course. But do you feel guilty after those two or three days? Do you have any guilt or do you actually go, oh, what am I doing? This feels great.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it is mixed like you're saying, but a lot of it is like, this is my job. This is how you get a book out there. This is how you can, I work so hard not to work. You know what I'm saying?Jamie Kaler:I'm working harder now than I ever did when all those credits were being made. Yeah,I would bust my ass. I would get ready. And also acting is about physicality. I would make sure I was in shape. I'd work out, I'd do all this stuff, and then I would go either do an audition and then there'd be downtime, and you'd be like, all right. All right. And then you'd kind of ramp it up again. Now it's like just constant blinders on of, and then the problem also I see is the follow-up. When you performed on stage, you either got to laugh right then and there, and you moved on. But now my wife, we have long conversations on Instagram as well.Michael Jamin:What does she do? What does she do on Instagram? What does she, I don't even know what does, sheJamie Kaler:Works in the pharmaceutical industry.Michael Jamin:So why is she, oh, I think you told me. Why is she on Instagram? Oh, does she post on Instagram?Jamie Kaler:She posts, but she has her own page, and then so she's very specific about it. She'll edit and quiz me and I go, do you want to hear my, I don't care. Nobody cares. Just post it. But it's like, well, what do you think this picture or this? I go, nobody cares. What song do you think this song? Is this song saying too much about me? Or should I feel like maybe I should use it? Should it just be instrumental? I go, okay, I don't care. The trick is to post and walk away. And then people will, for the rest of the day, scroll, because it's the dopamine of like, oh, so-and-So ooh, did you know? So-and-So just like that post I put up this morning, I don't know where this ends, but I find that some days if I just do something physical where I'm digging in the garden in the backyard, it's the greatest three hours of my life where I'm like, I didn't think about anything. I don't know. I don't know where it ends, but yeah. But we're also too, get off my lawn old guys who are like, why? You might have kids,Michael Jamin:But how much time do you think you put on social media every day, either way that you're working on or thinking of working on it or whatever?Jamie Kaler:Well, so I wasn't really, I never cared. I never cared. It was just recently that I've started to make an effort during the pandemic kind of destroyed me. I stayed with two kids. I had a kindergartner and a second grader, and my wife was working 12 hours a day. We have an office in the house where she was gone. Oh, wow. We didn't see her for 12 hours a, and I think part of it, she was hiding because it was the pandemic. We also having construction done on the house, it was arguably the worst time in my life. So I was trying to maintain the kids. So I printed out schedules. I made them put their school uniforms on. I took two desks. I set them up on opposite ends of the house. They were doing it on Zoom, but one's in kindergarten and one's on second grade.So they weren't old enough to really go. I got it at nine 40. They'd be released for recess. I'd have to get them snacks at 1130. It was lunch at two 50. School ended, and then we were trying to maintain sanity. So I started this kind of parental mental health zoom at night. And obviously we were drinking extensively pandemic mental health, but drinking, it was mental health, and we were sipping hardcore and sharing horrible stories. And so it grew into this. I started this thing called the Dad Lands, and it just grew. It was just Zoom. It wasn't even a podcast or anything. And that kind of caught on. I mean, there were guys, I was like, dude, don't kill yourself. We're going to get through this thing guys. Were hanging on by a thread. And we made ourselves all feel better because we were seeing that everyone else was going through this nightmare.And that eventually grew into the Parents Lounge podcast with my other buddy who was in it. He was doing Dad Apocalypse. I was doing Dad Lands. We started a podcast. I'm not a promoter, so I really love doing the podcast. We were doing it live. You've come and done it. The parents lounge, it's super fun. It's a parental mental health night. I've kind of laid off the sauce since then, and all of a sudden it kind of grew into this thing, but we never marketed it. We would just throw it out there and then the other dude would put it up on iTunes, but we wouldn't even put a post of like, Hey, Dave Ners on this Monday. Nothing. Just threw it in the ocean, because I don't want to be a marketer. I didn't move to Hollywood to be a publicist. It's not what I do.So finally, we're at the crap or get off the pot phase of look, we have a pretty good following, considering we haven't put one ounce of work into the promotional part of it. And so finally, everyone's like, look, dude, you either have to become a promoter or you are wasting your time. You need to monetize. We could do some live gigs here and there, but all of a sudden ruffle came in, Justin ruffle was our partner in this thing. And all of a sudden everyone's like, all right, so I committed. I'm committing to trying like you with a book where I feel like we have a really great product. How do we get people to see it? And you're like, this is the way to do it. So we went out and I enjoy stuff like this where we have conversations and we get in depth on stuff. But as far as just constantly putting up a story with a link to the podcast to do this and stuff, well,Michael Jamin:That you can outsource, that's easy. We'reJamie Kaler:Outsourcing it. And so we finally started outsourcing it, and I hadn't outsourced it at all, but it's like I equate it to the Gold Rush. It's like the people who really got rich during the Gold Rush where Levi Strauss and Woolworth and the guys who sold the Pickaxes. So at some point, I should become the outsource guy or something. But yeah.Michael Jamin:Do you see, okay, what are your aspirations with the show? What would you like it to become, if anything?Jamie Kaler:So I love doing the show. I would love a strong following where we've kind of branched off to do other stuff. But honestly, live shows. We have done a few and we're starting to book more. And then to monetize it to a degree, once you start putting all the work into it, you're like, well, maybe we should at least see something. But theMichael Jamin:Live show, you have to produce, you got to bring in equipment mics, you've got to mix it. No, justJamie Kaler:Literally as comics, we show up. I can't tell you the last time I soundcheck, ohMichael Jamin:Wait, wait,Jamie Kaler:We're doing the podcast live. You're talking about, but we do it as here's the beauty of what we do. We're already standups. That was a headline in comic touring the country. I did Montreal Comedy Festival. I've been on late night tv. So for me, that's the easy part. When I used to do standup, it was never about the show. It was more I would peek out and go, is anybody here? And the smartest guys on earth were s, Agora Rogan, Cher Joe, coy, who not only were great comics, but they were also really good at marketing themselves. And so those guys were doing mailing lists for 30 years and building, and I wasn't. I would go sets went great, crush it, and then go have a couple cocktails at the bar. I didn't have kids either. I didn't really care about trying to blow it up. So it was never about the show. It was about getting eyes on it. And I feel like that's where we're at now. We have such a strong, every time we go do it, we crush live. And the question is, how do we get other parents and people to go? This would be a great show to come to. That's really the marketing part of it.Michael Jamin:The tour as Right? Is it all, so it's improv or is it scripted, or what is theJamie Kaler:Show? We have acts, I have two albums on iTunes.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. So it's a comedy show show.Jamie Kaler:It's a standup comedy show that the Skis is a podcast, really. And we would bring our guests with us, maybe we talked about having Lemi and Heffernan come out and do the podcast live with those guys, but it would be billed as the parents lounge live with these special guests. But it's really a standup show for the audience with under the guise of a podcast. And we have bits and we would do improvisational stuff set up and questions with the audience, for the guests and for everybody else. But we just did, and we did it in Sara, Pennsylvania in the fall. And it was like two hours of just, I'm not even sure I touched that much of my material. We were, we were riffing hard, but we always had the material to step back on. It's like that's my favorite is you have these tracks, but you get off the tracks, you fool around. And if all of a sudden it starts to lag a little bit, you go, all right, here's some bits and then bring 'em back in.Michael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity. And Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.I mean, I don't know. I see people doing it online. I'd be doing exactly what you're saying. They take their podcast on the road and somehow, how do you think they're selling tickets though?Jamie Kaler:Because their followings are so strong that people, a lot of times also, I see these shows, and to me, the shows, I go, there's no show here. It's just this guy showed up. It's basically a two hour meet and greet. But honestly, that's what some people love. They don't even care. They just want to be in the same room. The guy will tell a couple stories, they'll play some bits on, they'll play bits on a screen and make it a show and they'll record the podcast live. But people are so enthralled by people chatting, I really missed my window. It really was my strong suit back in the day of just riffing and going along with stuff and being in the moment and chatting. But podcasts wasn't happening. And at the time when podcasts started, I was like, are we going back to radio? Why would people listen to podcasts? I was shocked. And yet offMichael Jamin:They were. But your brand is, you're trying to aim it towards parents or men dads, is that right?Jamie Kaler:Well, it's all parents and no, we've toured with moms. We usually take out moms. We've had Tammy Pesca, Kira svi on the show, Betsy Stover. We just had Nicole Birch. I mean, I think you need a mom's point of view. So when we do live shows, we typically bring out a mom as well with us.Michael Jamin:But you're talking, but is the focus basically on kids and parenting?Jamie Kaler:It is to a degree. But I also, sometimes we'll watch some of those shows and it's like sometimes parents don't want to talk about kids, so we kind of go where we go, and it's about life. The whole thing was trying to get people to understand that you see Instagram and you think your life. You're like, why isn't my life like that? The point of our podcast is really to go, nobody's life like that, dude. I mean, when's the last time you met someone who just was not absolutely full of shit? Have you met anybody who's not just full of shit? Anyone? Well,Michael Jamin:The thing is, especially in Hollywood, a lot of people were trying to hype themselves up. And I discovered early on, this is 30 years ago, that was the people who were talking most about their career really had nothing going on. And the people who didn't talk about it, they didn't talk about specifically, they didn't want people to hit 'em up for a job.Jamie Kaler:Know what I'm saying? And I said that exact 0.2 days ago, I was talking to Lori Kmar and she was just saying the same when I got here, if you were the one who were like, look at me, look at me. People were like, that guy's a loser.It was almost, and then all of a sudden, humble, I blame it on humble brag, humble brag. Do you remember hashtag Humble brag? That was the first one where people, it's really just a brag. You see humble, but you're really just bragging. But back in the day, I remember doing Friends and Will and Grace, and it was big. It was big. And I really didn't tell anybody. People would come in and talk to me and go, dude, were you weren't friends last night. And I was like, I was. And they go, why wouldn't you tell us? And I go, it seems dirty. I felt dirty bragging about what I was doing. But nowadays, if you're not constantly brag, brag, brag, brag, brag. People are like, well, I guess he doesn't have anything to promote.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I remember even just people, I'm in the business, they'll say, so humble to accept this. I'm so humbled to accept this award, whatever, where they might've been in sales or whatever. It's like, but you're using the word humbled wrong. That's not what humbled humble means. You're literally bragging.Jamie Kaler:I feel that way every time when I'm acting and the director goes and cut, that was perfect. We're going to do it again. And I go, you're using the word perfect improperly. Perfect means there's nothing better. I think that's exactly the meaning of perfect. And you're not using it correctly. I knowMichael Jamin:One of the things that I always get, this is my pet peeve about being a writer. You'll turn in a draft of a pilot you've been working on for months, and you just turn it in and then they'll say, great. We're setting up a notes call for Wednesday. Isn't it possible you love it? You know, don't like it? You already know there's something you want change. It's likeJamie Kaler:You didn't even read the title and you're like, I have notes.Michael Jamin:I have notes. Of course you do.Jamie Kaler:Well, listen, if they didn't have notes, they wouldn't have a job. And so I think they're like, well, I mean, we have to find something wrong with this thing. They would get the screenplay for the sting and go, I mean, does the guy have to have a limp? I don't get the Robert Shaw limp. It's like, dude, can you just go, this is pretty great. And also you're not a writer. It's not what you do.Michael Jamin:It's hard to, now you're killing me.Jamie Kaler:I did a show one time, I won't say the name of the show, but I did a show. It didn't go anywhere, but my character is a car salesman. I see these two guys come into the showroom and I want to sell them a car, and I think they're gay, so I pretend to be gay. This is of course, back in the time when I guess you could do that without being canceled. So I act gay to them to get them to buy the car, and we're going to be friends and stuff. And at the end of the episode, my character then kisses a woman who's another salesperson as the reveal. He's not gay. He was doing it to do that, whatever. So all week, all week, the studio execs keep coming over and they go, dude, you got to gay it up. You got to amp it up. We are not getting the joke. You have to play this extremely gay. And then they would walk away and the showrunner would walk over and go, dude, I want you to play it dead straight. I don't want you to play gay whatsoever. So after every take two people kept coming over, giving me completely opposite notes, and I didn't know who.Michael Jamin:Wait, I a little, go ahead, finish your story because I want toJamie Kaler:Jump on it. So I'm in the middle. I'm doing it. I'm not pleasing either of them, right? I'm right in the middle of guess, maybe a little after. I don't know. And I have played gay characters numerous times in tv, and usually I don't do anything. It doesn't have to be that way. And so I would play it dead straight. And so the show goes, it's a train wreck of a week. I'm just getting eviscerated on both sides of like, I'm not pleasing anybody because I'm trying to ride the line in the middle of between these 2 180 degree notes, whatever. It's a train wreck. We finished the shoot, I'm miserable. I run into the showrunner maybe three months later and he tells me, oh, he goes, Hey, just so you know, when you do watch it, we were running long for time. So we cut the tag.I go, you mean the reveal where I kissed the woman? He goes, yeah, we ran out of time and we cut it. I go, then everything I did up to that moment has no justification whatsoever. I goes, this is the craziest thing. He goes, I know. He goes, what are you going to do? It's tv. I go, all right, whatever. And I moved on and I was like, couldn't care less. But you're like, again, art, you wrote something. Your brain had this beautiful story you wanted to unfold. And then commerce and everybody has to prove that they're part of the mix and they can't be hands on.Michael Jamin:I'm very surprised that you got notes directly from a studio executive. That's inappropriate. They're supposed to go through the director. IJamie Kaler:Thought the exact same thing. And people, it's not how it worked. They came right up to me. Oh, I've had that many times. I've had studio people talk to me all the time. Yeah, well, also, I wasn't a star. I was a guest.Michael Jamin:Yeah, but still you're not, first of all, the DGA can file a grievance over that if they were to complain the DGA, I think that's part of the thing. But here's how I would've, if I were you, this is what I would've done. I would've done one take over the top and one place straight. Okay, I'm going to do two different takes, two different. And you decide later which one you want to use.Jamie Kaler:I think I did do that to some degree. I don't think I said it out loud about you have fun and edit, and also you as a guest star. It's the greatest job, but it's also the worst job. It is. These people have been locked and loaded. I did friends the week I did it, they were on the cover of Rolling Stone. They'd been burned in the press when they spoke. They weren't outwardly mean to me, but they also weren't like, Hey, welcome to the, they spoke to each other in hushed tones away from, and I didn't blame them. They couldn't go to a supermarket. They were just famous beyond belief. But the set was tense, super tense because a lot riding, not a lot of money on this thing. The shoot was eight hours long after four, they got rid of the first audience, brought a whole nother audience in, and you start to watch the sausage get made and you're like, this is supposed to be fun and comedy, but sometimes these things are super tense.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. So interesting. Do you have any experiences that were great sets that you love working on?Jamie Kaler:So many and listen, even that set the cast was great and friends was great. It was here was the greatest thing about doing friends, or even honestly Will and Grace. I watched Will and Grace, I watched the four of them. Dude, they were a machine combined with the writing staff and Jim Burrows directing. It was like a masterclass, the four of them. And they would rewrite on the fly, they'd do one take and almost rewrite the entire scene. And then you would, they'd go, Jamie, here's your new lines. And I did six episodes over the years and each time I went back it was like, you better bring your A game. Because they would change the whole scene. And they go, so you enter here now you say this and then he's going to say this and you're going to go and you're playing spinning at the four of them. Man, they were honestly maybe the best cast I've ever seen. Really. It was like a Marks Brothers. They just were so perfect in their timing. It was pretty impressive.Michael Jamin:I had Max Nik on my podcast a few weeks ago talking the showrunner. The funny thing is I was touring colleges with my daughter years ago, not that long ago, whatever. We were touring Emerson. And the tour guy goes, oh, and this is the Max Munic building. He goes, anyone know who he is? I'm like, max gave you a building. Yeah. Does anyone know who he is?Jamie Kaler:They were both great. And again, I was overwhelmed because I was so new. And my very first one, gene Wilder, played the boss. I'm the dick in Will's law firm, and I had only done a sitcom or two. And then I got Will and Grace out of nowhere on a crazy afternoon. It was supposed to be another big name guy. And he fell out at the last second. And I got cast and was shooting in the morning and I was terrified. And then I show up in Gene Wilders playing my boss, and I had to do a scene with Willy Wonka. I was like,Michael Jamin:No kidding.Jamie Kaler:By the way, I didn't start acting until I was 30. I was a Navy lieutenant.Michael Jamin:Oh,Jamie Kaler:Really? I was the US Navy. Yeah. That's why I played cops a lot. I was a Navy lieutenant. I got out at like 28. I hung around San Diego. Bartended had fun.Michael Jamin:Why did you get it so early? I think you're supposed to stay in forever and get a great pension.Jamie Kaler:Oh my God. It's like I'm talking to my father. My father banged me. I still have the letters. He and I wrote back and forth where I told him I was getting out and he was so pissedMichael Jamin:BecauseJamie Kaler:He was a pilot. My dad flew in World War ii, my brother was an admiral, and I got out to become an actor, and my father was just furious.Michael Jamin:Whatcha doing? You can one time.Jamie Kaler:Then I booked Jag. One of my first TV shows was, well actually my first show was Renegade with Lorenzo Alamas and Bobby Six Killer though, whatever his name is.Michael Jamin:I know I'm jumping around, but did you know Kevin and Steve before you got booked on? Yes. Yes you did. From whatJamie Kaler:I had done, we bumped into each other once a couple times doing standup. I was doing Thema or something, and then I forget how it's all blurry. I did their podcast, chewing it, and then just kind of hit it off with them. And then they came and did mine. And you talk about sets My boys was my greatest four years of my life. It was just, I met my wife, I bought a house. I was on a billboard on Times Square. We traveled the world. We shot on Wrigley Field in Chicago. I mean, it was glorious. Because of that, I started a headline clubs. It was just this like, oh, here we go. And it wasn't until Tacoma FD where I was on a set where, oh, people came early, people stayed late. You were almost going. It was like it brought you back. A kid being going to theater camp, going, well, here, I'm making a show. But again, as you know, it goes by the eps and number one on the call sheet and that dictates the tenor of the show tone. And they wereMichael Jamin:Both the same. Yeah,Jamie Kaler:Yeah. And those guys, that sets a family, literally everybody. And that's why you also have to be really careful. You can't say anything because everybody's related to everybody and they're all friends. And then Soder came and played Wolf Boykins. And I will tell you, I was super, I love those guys. But there's also a little jealousy of, I've always been a team sport guy. I love Sketch probably more than I like standup because there was something about being on stage with other humans and this chemistry. And then you would get off stage and you're like, can you believe how great that just went? There was this, when you would do standup, it's just you. And when you walk off stage, if you bomb or you crush, you own it. But when you are with a group, I love the group dynamics. Interesting to those guys credit the whole broken lizard.I wish I had the state. I'm jealous of those guys a little bit. Kids in the hall, when I first got out, I had an improv group in San Diego and we ended up doing, we got on the front page. I had been out of the Navy like a year. It was in this crazy improv troop, had no idea what I was doing. And there was three other dudes in it. And the comedy club, the improv, started to hire us to be the feature act. And we would get up. We had no mic, so we'd kind of eat it and then the headliner would come out and go, what the blank was that jackasses? And then do his standup act. But I always wanted that group. You have a comedy partner, you write, you partner. I like that more than the solitary thing. And honestly, to go back to the podcast really quickly, the parents lounge, we didn't have a team.We had no team. And so it wasn't until I brought Phil Hudson and Kevin Lewandowski and then Justin Ruppel and his guy Taylor. And all of a sudden I had a group of people behind me who were like, Hey man, this is a really great product. Let's go. So I guess I'm just a team guy. And when I got to that set at Tacoma fd, I'm so sad it's gone because I just, that and my boys are probably the two highlights of my career, really, personally of joy, of going to work, not feeling pressure like Man Will and Grace. It was fun. It was invigorating, it was exciting, scary. It's a little scary, man. You're like a lot of money. There's a huge audience. There's superstars who are making a million dollars a week. I'd leave the table read and go, that dude just walked with 200 k Monday.Thank you. Monday, 200 K what it must be, same on basketball teams where it's like LeBron James and then that dude from Australia. There's a dynamic there where you're like, yeah, you're not flying home in a jet, my friend. I am. It was weird. So Tacoma fd, those guys never once ever made you feel bad about trying stuff, doing a take where you just explore and you could be funny and you let it rip. I equate it back to Seinfeld. I don't know what it was like on the set, but Seinfeld was one of the few shows where they let the guest stars actually get sometimes bigger laughs than the main cast, which I always find in shows to be the true genius of a show where everyone's there, it's a play. Let it rip. I've been on shows where they, I'll blow it up. I was on the seventies show and I had a couple scenes, and I played this goofy guy with a wig on or whatever, and crushed. I mean, I was a nerd. I was a comic book nerd. Huge laughs. And they took me aside and were like, Hey man, just so you know, you will never get a bigger laugh than the main cast,So you might want to tone it down or we're going to be here all day shooting. And I go, really? And they go, I thought they were joking. And they were like, nah. Yeah. Wow. I probably shouldn't say I'm the worst too. I'll burn myself to say stuff. Well, it's interesting. This business is crazy, man. And you sit there and you think we're just making comedy, but people are,Michael Jamin:Yeah, some people are like that.Jamie Kaler:Yeah. People get their feelings hurt. Those little memos where it's like, don't look so and so in the eye. And you think they're joking. They're not joking.Michael Jamin:You've gotten those memos.Jamie Kaler:I haven't personally. Well, I worked on some big movies where it was like, but I also am not the crazy person who walks up to Christian Bale on Vice and goes, Hey man, dark Knight. Huh? You crushedMichael Jamin:It.Jamie Kaler:I sat next to Christian Bale for a day shooting and he was Dick Cheney unrecognizable. By theMichael Jamin:Way, this guy might be theJamie Kaler:Greatest actor who's ever lived. And he leaned over and he was so nice. Everyone was super kind, but he was nice to meet you. And he talked like Dick Cheney. He goes, nice to meet you. I'm Christian. I go, it's nice to meet you too. But I'm kind of laid back and I try not to, but other people will walk up to Bruce Willis on a set some extra and be like, Hey man, can you read my screenplay? And you're like, dude, read the room. What are you doing?Michael Jamin:What are you doing? What are you doing? PeopleJamie Kaler:Are crazy. That's the problem. And crazy people are drawn to this business. So yeah, I mean, if I was Tom Cruise, I might be the guy who look, just keep everyone away from me. I'm trying to get my job done here.Michael Jamin:Well, you know what though? I mean, I was working in Paramount doing a show and they were shooting, I guess some scenes from Mission Impossible. And he had his trailer, Tom Cruise had his trailer, a giant trailer, and then he had a whole tunnel that he would walk through from his trailer to go to the sound stage because he didn't want people in on the lot looking at him when he walked to the set or bothering him, I don't know. Which I thought was very strange. I was like, but we're all even on Paramount in the business. I guess were bothering would harass him. I'm like, Jesus, this is supposed to be a set studioJamie Kaler:People. And it's even worse now. You go to a broad, remember when people dressed up to go to Vegas? I remember going to Vegas in the eighties and nineties and we brought a sport coat right now it's like cargo shorts, flip flops and beer hat or something. And you're like, there's just no decorum anymore. And people are so, and they're trained by their videos that they can yell and do whatever they want. People go to Broadway shows and just yell out and you're like, what are you doing, man? It's a plane. WhatchaMichael Jamin:Yeah? What are you doing? PeopleJamie Kaler:Are horrible. I know when people, I always laugh when people are like, no, I think deep down people are good. Some, I would argue a good hunk not no have no manners.Michael Jamin:That's probably a remnant from social media where they feel like they can just comment and be mean because they're anonymous, I guess.Jamie Kaler:Well, I think the good thing about social media is that everyone can have their opinion heard. But the worst thing about social media is that everyone can have their opinion heard. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Jamie Kaler:I love when people like they're uneducated. They've never left their small town America. And they're like, no, no, I am 100% certain this is a fact. And you're like,Michael Jamin:Yeah,Jamie Kaler:When's the last time anyone has said you've raised some really strong points. I'm going to rethink my position.Michael Jamin:When you do see that, it always stands out to me. It's like, wow, look at you and humble. It does stand out. We'll doJamie Kaler:That. Listen, we're all guilty of it. Even just recently, my wife said something to me, I can't remember exactly what it was, and I think your spouse is the one who can really cut you to the bone. And she said something and I was like, what do you know? And then later I thought about it and I was like, no, she's right. I have been, oh, here's what she said. Here's what she said, something about a post I had. And she said, you just come off angry. And I said, no, no. I'm a comic. I'm pretending to be angry. And I think I went back and I watched the Post and it reminded me back to early on at Acme Comedy Theater, I had this sketch where I was with woman and we were on a date, and it was very Jerry Lewis props humor where I kept getting hurt.I kept getting hurt. The window smashes in my hand, it ends by me lighting a candle and I actually lit my arm on fire and then would roll it out as the lights came down or whatever, and it crushed. It did so well. And one night it just absolutely bombed, just bombed. And I kept pushing harder and harder and it was bombing, and I got off stage and I talked to the director and I was like, dude, terrible audience. Tonight goes, no, no. He goes, your problem was you didn't play frustrated, you played and it didn't work. And I go, what a specific note. And I've always thought about that because me personally with my angular features, you have to go with what you look like as well. And if I play frustrated, I'm super funny, but if I play angry, I come off angry. And so she was right and I had to go. I think maybe in life everybody needs a director because you forget. It's really hard to self-direct yourself because you get lost in these megaphones of your own things that you're like, no, no, I'm on track. This is going great. Instead of going, I wonder how the outside world perceives me.Michael Jamin:That's exactly right. Yeah. When I recorded the audio book for my book, I needed to be directed. Even though I direct, I don't know how I'm coming off. Yeah, I mean that's actually probably the most profound thing I've heard today. Well, the day just started, but everyone needs to have a director.Jamie Kaler:Yeah, it is kind of crazy. Yeah, it's weird because we also get caught up in our own, listen, I will say the world is, and I know I'm an older cat and I look back at simpler time. I don't want to be that guy. I was like, it was easier, but it was easier. I equate it to even crosswalks lately when you were younger, if you were going to take that right turn and the dude was crossing the crosswalk, everyone would make eye contact and they'd hold their hand up and then they might even jog a couple steps to go like, no, no, we're in this together. We're a team. No. And nowadays I go, dude, are you trying to get hit by a car? You didn't even look up? Didn't even look up deliberately, and it feels like you're slowing your walk down. It's so odd what's happening. But I do think, listen, back in the day, people used to, if you were in front of somebody's house and you were waiting for them, you'd pull your car over and slide it up, maybe a few cars up. Now they just put it right in the middle of the street, hit their hazard lights and just wait. And you'll be behind them and they go, I don't care. I don't even know why they sell cars with rear view mirrors. They should just get rid of it. No one's looking behind them. Nobody cares about anybodyMichael Jamin:Else. That's so interesting. Yeah, I mean, you're right about that lot people crossing the, I always think that, boy, you really are trusting of me. You really trust me not to hit you with my car. Jesus. Isn't thatJamie Kaler:Crazy?Michael Jamin:Yeah, sure you get a payday, but I might kill you.Jamie Kaler:I think it was safer back then too because you knew, listen back in those days, you knew to be off the road between 10:00 PM and 2:00 AM when everyone was drunk. Right. You knew it and everyone was like, oh, drunk driving was terrible. Nowadays, 10:00 AM yesterday morning the dude next to me getting high on his phone, so now it's like twenty four seven. That's why I can't believe people, I never crossed the street without making eye contact and going, dude, are you on your phone or are you going to hit me?Michael Jamin:Yeah, you got to look for yourself.Jamie Kaler:Exactly. But again, I'm old, so what do I know? It is weird trying to teach my kids and I mean, we've talked because your kid's a little older, but trying to impart knowledge of the world to them to be aware of their surroundings. I always say they're probably years from now, they'll go, like my father always said, read the court. You got to have full court vision. I see it in cars. My wife will be behind one car and I'll go, you can't see that three cars up. That dude stopped. You are changing lanes. I'm looking five cars ahead.Michael Jamin:ButJamie Kaler:People nowadays, it's just this one little, they just keep their heads down and you're like, pick your head up, man. But people don't.Michael Jamin:Yeah, be careful. I need to know. So I want to know business right now I'm jumping around, but business is still slow for you in terms of acting gigs because from what I see, they're not shooting a lot. Is that what you were seeing?Jamie Kaler:That is true, and I've had a handful of amazing auditions lately. Oh, you have? Okay. So yeah, a ton. Not a ton, but here's the dilemma is they're all self-tapes, right? And I'm pretty good at self-tapes. You can see there's the lights behind me. There's a curtain right above me that comes down, and then I shoot it that way and they're pretty great. And I'm again about trying to be directed. I've asked my agents and my managers and been like, Hey, am I self taping these? Right? And they're like, dude, your self tapes are solid, but even there's no feedback. And I do think back in the day, I got a lot of jobs because I was great in the room. I was probably better in the room than I was as an actor. You could take it. I would get hired because a lot of acting is chemistry, and you want to see that the person you're working with is going to be cool and able to hang and alsoMichael Jamin:Take a note. Can you take a note?Jamie Kaler:It's so funny you say that, dude. So lately I was, for a while I was just putting the one take on where I was like, this is how I see this part. But this one I had the other day, it was so good, dude. It was handsome. Adjacent was the breakdown, which I was like, all right, because I've always been, I'm lumberjack good looks. I'm like, I know I've walked into rooms, I've seen Brad Pitt in a room, and I've been like, yeah, that's beautiful. I'm a little al dente. That guy is so gorgeous. I'm on the cover of a paper towel roll. I get it. I know. I'm Portland. I'm Portland. I'm a Portland 10. Portland. I'm a Portland nine maybe. So it's handsome adjacent, early fifties jerk cop. I go, dude, this should be offer only. Why am I reading for this?Michael Jamin:Right?Jamie Kaler:So I did the first take. I submitted one where I was like, more Tacoma fd, I was. I go, well, maybe that's why I got in here. They know me from that. And then I was going to just submit that one and I said, you know what? Because you can't go in a room, dude, the casting directors are so good that I've had the pleasure to work with Wendy O'Brien who did that one is one of my faves. She'll give you notes that will kind of give you a nuanced performance where you're going, oh, I see the change. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Because hard. And so I did a totally separate take. I had a friend over here and I did another take that was so the opposite extreme of he wasn't big at all. He was very underplayed in tone. And when I sent them in, my agent said, he goes really great that you did two separate takes.And I said to him, it's a new show. I've never seen it. I don't know what the tone is. There's no direction. You're literally reading this hoping that your take jives with the guys who are going to hopefully see this tape or not. I don't know. And I also submitted it. The audition came out on Monday. It was due Thursday. I memorized it submitted on Tuesday. The other thing they tell you, they go early, bird gets the worms. So the business has changed so much. You're working really hard to pump these things out, but you're like, is anyone seeing any of it? It would be nice if somebody once just called and was like, Hey man, you're not getting it, but I got to tell you, you did a really good job, man. You what you get in a room or if sometimes you don't, sometimes. Yeah.Michael Jamin:So interesting. The life of an actor. So what is left for you as you wrap up, what is left for you today? What does your day look like today, an average day for you?Jamie Kaler:So we are relaunching the podcast. We have an advertiser that's just come on board. We are currently on Buzzsprout, but we're going to jump to megaphone and we're actually, we're still doing the live ones on Tuesday nights 7:00 PM Pacific Time. It's on right now. It's everywhere. Facebook, Instagram, Twitch, YouTube, it goes out live. We're going to slowly bring that back in and we are jumping to Patreon. So come find us. The parents lounge on Patreon, and then we are, so we're doing all the marketing right now, and then I'm still working with the same guys you work with who have been eyeopening. It's like a master's class in this business of social media about getting people on. Because again, I feel like we have a really solid product that people not only and enjoy, but I think it helps parents kind of understand that it takes a village and not to get consumed in your day-to-Day. This is not to end on a terrible note, but we went to a funeral yesterday, one of the parents at my kid's school passed away, cancer Young with young kids, and we were all having a meltdown early in the day about whatever garbage problems we had on. And then we all got there and we were like, this is eye opening, right? This is like what? I can't believe I was bitching aboutSuch and such earlier in the day then. So especially as a parent, I mean, I became a parent late in life, and so I lived a glorious thirties and forties, but now my life's kind of consumed by others, and so I see people in the middle of the country are hanging on. It's tricky times. The government's in disarray. It's an election year. Prices are through the roof with all these fires and everything, insurance rates are going up and people are literally day to day of like, Hey man, I don't think this is tenable. I don't know how we're going to get through this. So on the parents' lounge, we try to bring in a little seriousness, but a lot of humor and make everyone go, all right, I guess we're all in the same boat. So that's kind of our mainstay. Now we're building everything towards the relaunch of the podcast in a few weeks. Parents Launch, come check it out.Michael Jamin:And they should also follow you whereJamie Kaler:At Jamie Kaler on Instagram, I usually do some daily posts about my kids and all comedy. All comedy. And then we'll be touring. So the website will be up. Actually, Phil is, our boy is building it as we speak, Jamie kaler.com will be up. But come find us at the Parents Lounge and Social Media on Facebook at Jamie Kaler and excellent.Michael Jamin:Thank you so much for joining me today. This was a good chat.Jamie Kaler:Thank you so much. Honestly, again, this has been cathartic in a way of, I do think especially what you do, conversation is an art form, and I think it's falling by the wayside because people are so enthralled with these tiny little morsels of entertainment, and so the spoken word is being lost. I'm making my children read out loud a lot. We read out loud a lot because I think it's a dying art and hopefully the pregnant pause will come back one day.Michael Jamin:Excellent. Jamie, thank you again. The parents' lounge. Go follow 'em on social media. It's a great talk. Alright, man. Thanks.Jamie Kaler:Thanks brother. Thanks for having me.Michael Jamin:Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertisers supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/screenwriters-need-to-hear-this/exclusive-content

On November 18th, I hosted a webinar called "How Professional Screenwriters Create Great Characters", where I talked about how to come up with interesting and unique characters, as well as how tapping into your everyday life interactions with people can help with this. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.Show NotesA Paper Orchestra on Website: - https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:And why are we rooting for him? We're rooting for this meek man who's going to die soon to make some money for his family, but also to feel like he's alive for the first time in his life because he's just lived this very meek existence. And so that's why we're rooting for him. That's why we like him. And when he makes mistakes, he may go off track, but we hope he comes back. We're still rooting for him. You are listening to What The Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase and to support me on this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin and you're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, today we're doing another q and a from II's free writing webinars, and there's a lot of questions that people had. We couldn't answer 'em all on the end. We ran out of time, and so we're going to address 'em here. But this episode, Phil, I'm here with Phil Hudson.Phil Hudson:What up, Phil?Michael Jamin:Today's episode is brought to you by a paper orchestra, which is my collection of personal essays. It's David Saris meets Neil Simon on sale on my website, michael jamin.com, or you can find it anywhere. Books are sold, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, apple Books, all those places. Go get it. Go check it out. It's a fun read. Yeah. Okay.Phil Hudson:Worth checking out all the versions though too. I was just listening to the audio book and we talked about this in your episode about the book itself, but the music cues and the intros, very well done. Very well produced. You're also telling me about, thank you, Phil, how hellacious of a process it was to do itMichael Jamin:ToPhil Hudson:The quality you like.Michael Jamin:Yes. Because you only get to put it out once, but yeah. But thank you. So Phil got the audio book, but it's available ebook and print as well, however you consume your written materials. Love it. Alright, Phil, we got some questions. Enough about me. Let's ask me some questions.Phil Hudson:Yeah, let's talk to you some more about you. This is from the November 18th webinar. These are like you said, q and A stuff, and the topic of this webinar was how professional screenwriters create great characters. This was, I think, a first run on this topic. You hadn't done this topic before.Michael Jamin:It could be. Yeah, this was a good one. Yeah, this turned out to be a good one I thought.Phil Hudson:I think so too. We can tell, there's some metrics we can tell in terms of how long people stay, questions that are asked, how long it goes. And I was going to say too, we didn't get to these questions because typically when we first started doing this almost a year ago, February will be a year doing these. It was like 30 minutes of lesson and then it was a bunch of q and a and that has transitioned into about 45 minutes of lesson and then a little bit of q and a where we can get it. And then we even have VIPQ and A now where you can just pay a small fee to join for an hour after and you just talk to people on Zoom and they get to go live and ask you questions and some really, really good questions being asked in that. So if you're interested in attending these webinars, go to michael jamin.com/webinar where you can sign up for that. But then you can also sign up on that page to get into the VIP. If you want to ask Michael directly a question that you have if youMichael Jamin:Can't get to it. So to be clear, the webinars are always free, and if you want to spend extra time with me, that costs you something. But I should also say right now it seems like we have four that we're going to have a rotation, but we may keep adding different topics, but right now we have four good ones, so if you missed it, just sign up and maybe we'll do it again. CorrectPhil Hudson:Me if I'm wrong, but I think some of the topics you've come up with have come from the q and a that you do on these topics. How do I overcome? Writer's block are like, I'm really struggling with a character or development. So they kind of incept the idea of like, okay, here's a topic we should go down. So lots of great value there. Alright, well again, just for housekeeping, we do split these up into topics. So we have kind of general topics. We have craft breaking in questions related to your course or the webinar topic and then miscellaneous. So we're going to start with K Craft. I think again, people want to know how to do the job, which I think is helpful.Michael Jamin:Yes.Phil Hudson:So Chad, Chad Siime or cme, I don't know how to pronounce that. Sorry, Chad,Michael Jamin:He doesn't, doesn't know either.Phil Hudson:He probably's probably making it up. Was it like Ari, one of the writers in Taco, they pronounced their name. It was changed at one point.Michael Jamin:Yeah, he says his own name wrong. Poor guy.Phil Hudson:I know someone who was a Heinrich and then when World War II happened, they changed it to Heinrich, Henrik Henrich because they didn't want to be associated.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah.Phil Hudson:There you go. Chad asked, do you have examples of writers who have successfully experimented with story structure? What principles did they stick to and where did they deviate?Michael Jamin:I don't really know. I mean, I don't really know if I have a good answer to that. Every time I watch something I go, oh, it falls into the good. I guess there's some really high level writing. Christopher Nolan. Okay. So I would say many of his movies do not fit what I would teach, like Memento, but Forget or Inception. I don't know how many times I've watched it and I still don't understand it. So it's a great movie though.Phil Hudson:Yeah. But I would say that I can see that clearly the writing structure in those.Michael Jamin:You can. Okay.Phil Hudson:Oh yeah, you're definitely an inception too. It's like how do we get on this journey and how are we making decisions and where this stakes, all that stuff. I think it's all,Michael Jamin:A lot of it playing at the timeline, memento when he's playing with it. I don't even know what year it's supposed toPhil Hudson:Be. You're right. But I wonder if that's, it's all there and it's just been split to change and mess with your head a bit, but it's all there, which is why it resonates with people.Michael Jamin:But I guess my advice is like, listen, if you want to operate at the high level, that's great, but let's just get to the professional level first before you become the masterPhil Hudson:Level. And Christopher Nolan's a great example of that because he had made a feature before he did Memento, so he had a full feature. He was making short films all the time in film school before he even started experimenting with timelines and things like that. Yeah, okay. Listen to me just arguing. Michael jamin on his own podcast.Michael Jamin:What do I know? You might bePhil Hudson:Right, maybe my head did get big. Kevin and Steve. Alright, Marianne wants to know, you have such a great understanding of human nature. Was there something you've always been good at or did you develop it as a writer?Michael Jamin:No, I didn't. I have a very low emotional iq. My parents are great people, well, great parents, but terrible, low emotional IQs themselves just because that's the household they grew up in. And so it's not a knock on them, it's just like this is the product of your parents. This is how they communicate. And so a lot of this I learned I gained from my wife just from being with her. And then the rest of it, of course, I learned as I became, I became a writer because that's your job as a writer is to really understand people and to get into their shoes. And one of the, it's so funny, I've spoken about this in the past, but my first writing teacher was a guy who really wanted everyone to be in psychoanalysis. That's what he called it because he was so old. They don't even call it like that anymore.It's psychotherapy. But he thought every writer has to be in psychoanalysis because if you don't understand yourself, how could you possibly understand someone else and you or a character? And I think he's absolutely right. I didn't want to believe he was right, but he is right. If you don't understand yourself, and most people do not, and we know this because they go through life unconscious of the people of the damage they're leaving, of the people they're hurting because they're just not even aware of it. And you see it all the time. You could see it on social media, people saying really mean things. It's like you might even be a good person, but why would you put that in print? What is wrong with you that you would say that? What part of yourself is so wounded that you think you need to say this in writing? And so I appreciate the compliment, but everyone else, I'm a work in progress and I think writing definitely has helped me.Phil Hudson:Yeah, that's great. Albert Klein wants to know, and this is again contextual here. These are people who are live chatting questions throughout this episode or this webinar. But I said relatability is key in full caps. I think where you're talking about with the characters. Do these characters need to be relatable? Do I need to understand who they'reMichael Jamin:Yeah, and it's the same thing with Tony Soprano. How do we relate to a mobster? I don't, and he's probably a sociopath as well, but what we can relate is the fact that we know what it's like to be a boss. Maybe you know what it's like to be a boss, to have people undermining you, your underlings. And he certainly had those problems. We know what it's like to be a father and to have children that are rebellious or whatever. That's the part we relate to with, so we don't relate to the part where he's going to wax somebody because he's late with the whatever. But we do relate to this other issues, which isPhil Hudson:Anxiety, the stress and family life. His psychotic mother.Michael Jamin:And that's what the show is about. It's not aboutPhil Hudson:Crazy. He deals with his in-laws too. Joey Pants, I think is his brother-in-Law or something, right?Michael Jamin:I don't remember whatPhil Hudson:He was. Yeah. Anyway, it's all relatable because it is just a heightened version of what go through. Yeah,Michael Jamin:His job is a little more interesting than our job, but it's all, that's not what it's about. It's not about the mafia, it's about the emotions that we all relate to.Phil Hudson:Great answer. Reik vid. So do you find the anti-hero more interesting than a traditional hero?Michael Jamin:Anti-hero is not even a term I use. I don't know. I think everyone, your hero has to be likable. I don't know. I can't even say I've lost interest. If your character is so unlikable, I don't really care what happens to him or her. I am out. So this notion of anti-hero, I don't even think of your writing that way. You have a hero. I think anti-heroes is one of these terms that, I dunno, expert writers will tell you it's an anti-hero. What?Phil Hudson:Yeah, people say that. People have said that the whole time since I've said I've wanted to study screenwriting or be a writer publicly said, oh, I'll describe what I like. Oh, you like an anti-hero? Batman's an anti-hero. And I was like, why? He's not goody hoo Superman. You've described him. He is a deeply wounded person who is using every resource he has, all of his willpower to stop other people from suffering.Michael Jamin:And how is he, I mean, we were on his side. He's complicated, but we're on his side. We're rooting for him. If we're not, we got a problem.Phil Hudson:Alright. What about Walter WhiteMichael Jamin:Breaking back? Yeah. What about Walter White? So that's a great, is he an anti-hero? I don't know. Who cares? To me, he's a guy who's dying in the pilot episode. He's dying, he's a teacher, so he doesn't have any money. What is he going to leave his family when he's gone? He's got to come up with money fast. And the only way he knows how to do that fast is by capitalizing on his skillset, which is he's a chemistry teacher so he can make meth in a lab. Does that make him an anti-hero? To me, he's just a hero.Phil Hudson:He's a person. And then you find out that he gave up tremendous wealth because that was like, he had that partnership at that company where he had the ability to adjust multimillions of dollars and he's a public school chemistry teacher. So it's those layers of decisions and regret. It's exploring the human condition. Definitely justMichael Jamin:And why are we rooting for him? We're rooting for this meek man who's going to die soon to make some money for his family, but also to feel like he's alive for the first time in his life because he's just this very meek existence. And so that's why we're rooting for him. That's why we like him. And when he makes mistakes, he may go off track, but we hope he comes back. We're still rooting for him.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Great. Chad, back again. Chad, how deep should someone go in developing a film or television character knowing that the director actor in the show's evolution will shape their personality?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean, you should go deep enough to get their interest so that they want to buy your work or work with you. But just know that's the thing about film. The minute you sign up for a film or you sell your film, the director's in charge, they're the boss. It's their movie. They might fire you. They're going to probably hire five other writers to rewrite the hell out of you. You may not even get screen credit because that'll be arbitrated by the Writer's Guild. Which writer did the most work on it? And so you should do as much possible as work possible to entice people to get on board your project. But once they get on board, you're out. Except in tv, it's a little different tv. The writer is the boss, not the director.Phil Hudson:And the actor needs to play that role. Right? You've got to entice them with your writing. And then good for you, man, congratulations. You can cry about it and wipe your tears with a hundred dollars bills,Michael Jamin:Right? Or write something. Write a book. If you're so protective, then do it your way. Write a bookPhil Hudson:Like me.Michael Jamin:Listen, like me, a paper orchestra available @michaeljamin.com or Amazon or Barnes and Nobles or Apple Books or anywhere books are found. And now back to our show film. Excellent Commercial Break.Phil Hudson:KU Ghana. I'm so sorry. I did not get that right. How would you go about creating a character who is far removed from your life, for example, based on a myth or legend? And it seems like there's a two-parter here, so maybe addressMichael Jamin:That one. How would I go about, well, what's the second part maybe? Or is it so unrelatedPhil Hudson:And advice for generating side characters, how to get the balance right between, so,Michael Jamin:Oh, that part. I could teach in the course, the side characters, but how do I go about creating characters that are, what was the first that were mythical or something?Phil Hudson:If you have characters are so far removed from who you are, and I'm assuming this is the job or the thing they do not necessarily the difference in who they are saying myth or legendary heroes.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well, I would say try to do some research if you're not modeling it after someone, if a psychopath get to know them and try to figure out steal from them or a family member or someone. And if you don't, then it's on you to do a lot of research. Then you're going to have to get books on people who you want to be authentic. You don't want to, that's part of your job is the research part.Phil Hudson:Yeah,Michael Jamin:I prefer to steal, I prefer to steal from people. I know.Phil Hudson:There you go. That's why all of his crazy characters are named Phil Hudson. I couldn't figure it out. But this ties back to David s goer's comment about the Man of Steel movie that he wrote and he asked, what's the theme? He's like, it's about fathers and it's like Superman has an Earth father, but he has this other father and it's literally dealing with your father relationships. And then the second one is about mothers, and it's Batman and Superman dealing with this. Both of their mothers are Martha and they're struggling. And so there's this balance even of, we all know what it's like. You can even jump to Iron Man and Civil War when they're fighting and he's fighting. He finds out this other character killed his mom and Captain America is trying to stop him. And he goes, he killed my mom. And he's like, you can't be mad at Iron Man for wanting to fight this guy who's been his ally because he killed his mom. Even if the guy doesn't remember doing it, he kills your mom. So that's all super heightened, super superhero things. But what I'm trying to get to is there's humanity in every character and your life experience mining your life for stories like Michael teaches. That's how you do that.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Okay. Kim wants to know what about inner conflict, like being raised strictly religiously and discovering the joys of secular humanism and the transition from the medieval mindset to Renaissance?Michael Jamin:Well, you're probably a better person to answer than me.Phil Hudson:So this feels very specific to a type of story that they're writing.But when we talk about internal conflict, this is something I struggle with because as someone who's religious and been raised religious, I'm not anti-religious. I'm still very active in my faith and there are a lot of people who are very interested in what it means to be a Mormon, to be a latter day saint. I've struggled with how to approach that type of story. You've been telling me to write that for a long time, and I've struggled because I don't want to be preachy and I don't want to tear down my faith. And then I did find a balance and that balance is, let me just take a step back and look at all of the characters that I grew up with in this secular religion and what is so intriguing about the mommy blogger, the multilevel marketer, the jock has been who's now a real estate or the guy who went on to sell summer sales and has so much money but zero personality and then puts some interesting character struggling with their faith in the middle of that so you can exploreMichael Jamin:Because these are all characters that you grew up with in your faith,Phil Hudson:TheMichael Jamin:Multilevel, all of these people. Do you think Mormonism has something? Do you think there's a trait in Mormonism that applies to m multilevel marketing or something?Phil Hudson:I do, yeah. There's no better networked religion I think than the LDS faith. You, everything's divided geographically. You have 10 congregations that are geographically divided in what we call a stake. Then you have wards, which is literally a term to define a geographical area. So your neighbors all go to church with you, you do this, you know everybody, you know their name, you're encouraged to know their families and look after them and take care of them. And this is like pioneer heritage. This is a religion that was chased out of city after city, A Mormon extermination order made it legal to kill us in Missouri. And it wasn't appealed until the 1960s or seventies. They circle the wagons mentality of pilgrims or pioneers and they still treat it that way. And so present yourself nicely taken to an extreme is have perfect teeth. Go to the gym for three hours a day, wear nice clothes, live above your means, keep up with the Joneses. Really. It's like I totally see that I didn't grow up in that type of familyMichael Jamin:In that room. That's interesting to me. See, but you feel like if you were to writePhil Hudson:That you'd be caring? No, now I'm saying I know how to do that and I do know how to explore it because I'm not making fun of the religion necessarily or my theology. I am doing something that has always been interesting. It's the hypocrisy,Michael Jamin:The hypocrisy,Phil Hudson:The hypocrisy of it. And there's a lot of that. It's befriend everybody, but don't play with those kids. They don't go to church. Oh, I see. Interesting. If Jesus said we should love our neighbor as ourselves, then why are we not playing with the kid who's just moved here from South Dakota? So there's all those things. So what I would say advice is you need to look at what is interesting and what's your personal feelings about those things. And I left Utah because I didn't like necessarily the culture. It wasn't about the religion that was prominent there. It was the culture of the people, and that is something I have a lot of opinion about. So why am I not writing about that?Michael Jamin:Yeah, right. Good,Phil Hudson:Good. You'll be getting a draft within the next month or so fromMichael Jamin:Michael. Good. Send it along. You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker view says those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book and now back to our show.Phil Hudson:John wants to know, so if you choose the worst person to go on a journey, does that mean you came up with a scenario or premise or actual journey first? This goes back to in this episode or this webinar, you said it's not about finding the perfect character, it's finding the Yeah. And then I want to let people watch that webinar so they can get this thing here.Michael Jamin:Yeah. The question basically is which comes first character or the story? And to me it's the story. If most people say, oh, well I'm writing a movie about a guy, whatever comes back from the war with post-traumatic stress syndrome and now have to integrate into the real world, okay, that's the story. So now you have to go, who's the character? What's the best character for that story? Was he a seal, a navy seal or was he one of these accountant pencil pushers? He might've been a grill cook or something and I didn't sign up for this, and now he's coming back to the railroad with PTSD because the bomb went off or something. So that might be more interesting than a seal. I don't know. But you came up with a story first.Phil Hudson:Oh, can you imagine? You have legitimate PTSD and there's stories from even World War ii. It's like things are bad when the chef is loading their pistol. When the cook is loading it, they advance so far across the line that the cooking staff are now preparing to defend themselves. That's a problem. So you imagine that guy comes back and he's in a support group and he's like, yeah, I'm just struggling. And people are talking about, well, we dropped in, we night roped fast, roped in at night to get this guy and an IED went off and this guy is like, well, yeah, our position was overrun. I was like, and what did you do? I was like, I was a cook, and it diminishes your PTSD, but it shouldn't. But it's like That's fascinating.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you may go into the army because you want to become a dentist and the army will pay you to become, learn how to become a dentist, but you're not signing up to carry a pistol. You're signing up to drill teeth and somehow if you got PTSD, like you're saying, your base was overrun or a bomb went up or whatever, this is not what I signed up for and that might be interesting.Phil Hudson:Very interesting. I want to see that story. Yeah. Four eyes concepts. Can a non-human character be relatable?Michael Jamin:Can a non-human character be relatable? Well, they should be relatable. We watch the movie cars, it's about cars, but they're not, not cars. They're people who drawn to look like cars. I mean,Phil Hudson:We talked about data, data from Star Trek, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Everything should be, no one wants to care about a car.Phil Hudson:Wally.Michael Jamin:Wally. Exactly. All those arePhil Hudson:Short circuitMichael Jamin:Smurfs. Yeah, they're people justPhil Hudson:Drunk. Johnny five is alive, man.Michael Jamin:Yeah, so they're not cars or toys. They're people.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Awesome. So it's a craft section. Let's talk questions related to the topic and course Jim Garcia wants to know, how would you approach a true story? Someone they just got the ip, so that sounds like they've optioned it for a CIA badass who did badass things. Would you focus on areas of his life where he isn't such a badass? His complicated backstory?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah, right. To me, it's much more interesting to write about someone's weaknesses than it is to write about their strengths. And so yeah, that's exactly right. What's his problems? What are his weaknesses? That's what I would write about.Phil Hudson:Yeah. What was that movie you told me to review with Bob Odenkirk where he was like, oh,Michael Jamin:What was it called again? I likedPhil Hudson:It. I can see the poster getting punched. Yeah, it'll come to me in a second. But that was an example of someone who just seems like a normal regular paper pusher and then you find out he's got this rich backstory, but it's him struggling to get back there. He's not good at it at first. He's like getting his butt kicked.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I like that movie.Phil Hudson:Yeah. The name will come to me in a second. TJ wants to know when does a scene end or when should you end a scene is probably a better question.Michael Jamin:I teach this in a course in bit greater detail, but the scene ends when the character's attitude is no longer the same as it was at the beginning of the scene. And that's when the scene is over. When the character, so for example, well, I got to think now, I won't put it on the spot. I can't think of a, but it is basically a character will get some piece of information and they go, oh, I got to go apologize to her. Or, oh, that does it. I got to rob a bank. It's like now their attitude has shifted. It's slightly different. It was in the beginning, and this is a mistake that most new writers make, is like the scenes continues long after the character. They're continuing to write, even though the scene ended 10 minutes ago. So when the character's attitude is different, has shifted, you're seen is over.Phil Hudson:Yeah. That's great. Refi wants to know, is story structure pretty much the same worldwide with the exception of cultural differences?Michael Jamin:I believe so. What differences difference does the language make? And to be honest, I am interested in stories from other cultures because look, we all have love. Love doesn't change from culture to culture. This culture, you may have a range marriage and this culture, you don't have a range marriage and this culture, a marriage ceremony might look different than this culture's marriage ceremony, but love is love and so you're just writing about the same thing. And I appreciate the window into your world because you have a different culture, but we're all humans. We all share the same human emotions, and so that's where people get hung up. It's like, no. Yeah, it's the same. We're all the same.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I met this kid here who's from Iran here in Los Angeles, and we were chatting and I had the opportunity in film school and at Sundance to catch several Iranian films by this Iranian filmmaker and a couple of his cohorts, and he was so impressed by that because I was able to talk about the story structure of these films. And what's interesting is how they have to navigate the politics of a government that funds everything, but also censors everything and how you have to use show, don't tell, and speaking indirectly to get across your message that kind of is political and anti-government, but have the government fund it and think you're doing good work for them. The other, but it's story is what connects and carries through. And the other great film everyone should check out from 2013 is called The Lunchbox, and it's this beautiful film I saw at Sundance and it ties in culture so beautifully to how we approach story. I would absolutely check that one out. David wants to know how can you add to the skeleton of a good character if you have the basis for a compelling character story, but you feel you need to add more to make your character real?Michael Jamin:Yeah. One of the things I have in the course is a whole worksheet. It's a chart that you need to GamePhil Hudson:Changer.Michael Jamin:Yeah. It's a chart so that you have to fill out a bunch of questions that you have to ask yourself about this character and filling out this chart will really help you flesh out your character in a way you couldn't even imagine. And then there's other characters in this chart, and then you have to say, okay, how does this characteristic, Matt? How do these characters interact? That's another question. And so all of that, if you're really interested, go sign up for my [email protected]/course.Phil Hudson:Yeah. You quickly learn that you're painting all of your characters to be mirrors of each other because you want to talk about that thing, and then it highlights how you can make all of those interactions more beautiful and more interesting, more conflict to just really improve your story. You got that from somebody. Do you want to say who you got that from?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I learned that from Steve Levitan who I worked under. Just shoot me. So much of the knowledge that I teach in this course is just from sitting at the feet of writers who are more experienced than I was.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Do you have your notebook? I don't know if you want to show to peopleMichael Jamin:Every once in a while we take this down,Phil Hudson:So this is something we bring up in the webinars, often even give away a free PDF based on this notebook called the insider's guide to terminology, but that's your notes in your career writing, just writing stuff down from conversations, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah, exactly. I would work with other writers and they'd say something smart and I jot into my notebook, and then when I made the course a couple years ago, I just referred to my notebook. I go, this is what I want to teach.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's awesome. This is Christina in our course, and this isn't really a question, but Kevin, who prepped this for me, left it in says in Michael's course, I learned how to figure out once and for all those act breaks that were a real headache for me before story structure is so well explained. It becomes much easier after. Yeah. She'sMichael Jamin:Had a good lot of success. Christina,Phil Hudson:She doing well. I was about to say she's taken her life mind for all these rich stories, and she's written, I think books and then now plays and those plays are being performed and touring. SoMichael Jamin:NotPhil Hudson:Bad. She credits you for helping her figure out how to break the story, but you didn't tell her what life to live and her experience or how to paint the story. You said this is how you tell your story, and she did that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Good for her.Phil Hudson:Awesome. We have one question on breaking in. This is from new legend pictures. I've been wondering about writing for a foreign audience. For example, I'd like to write something in the vein of Korean dramas. I know there's probably no way to break it into the US market.Michael Jamin:Writing a Korean drama.Phil Hudson:Yeah, just writing for other things, specifically a Korean drama.Michael Jamin:Well, are they Korean or are they American? IPhil Hudson:Sounds immediate. It's because this is a foreign audience. Sounds to me like this is someone who really enjoys Korean dramas and wants to take a stab at writing one.Michael Jamin:Oh, I see. I don't know anything about KoreanPhil Hudson:Drama. I think you were just saying, is that worth doing to try to break in? Is that a good sample?Michael Jamin:I would assume if that's your culture and you can write something, like I said, you can write a story that it could be, I could have a window into your culture. That's interesting to me to see what that's about, but at the end of the day, you still experience love the way I do. It's the same. Sure. If that's your culture, right, and you understand the Korean culture better than because you're Korean. Yeah. Lean into it.Phil Hudson:Lean into it. What if you're not Korean and you just like ca dramas,Michael Jamin:Then you're in dangerous territory. Someone might say, what do you know you're talking about? Or people might have a problem with you. I don't want to debate whether it's right or wrong, but you make run into trouble with that.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I would think that if you want to just write it to get it out of your system and it helps you improve your craft, great. But be tread lightly. Right. Next. Do most shows have, this is the same person, do most shows have each episode have their own full story arc? Or is it the whole season or the series or both?Michael Jamin:Well, every episode has to have a complete story, and then you may have a longer a story arc. This character is going back to college for the first time, but that one episode has to feel fulfilling. It has to feel like, yeah. Okay. And that there has to be a story in that episode. If it's not a complete story, people are going to be bored by it. And then the next episode, you're taking that journey a little further, but this is a question whether you want to serialize or your project or not. But again, you don't need to worry about any of this. You need to write one complete compelling episode of television. You don't need to worry about seasons, episodes two through 10. Just give me one damn good episode. Give me the pilot. That's all I need.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Ruth wants to know, say your agent is into a spec script, but you want to pursue it, can you try to pitch it yourself? How bound are you to what your agent wants?Michael Jamin:I wonder if they're talking about me or themselves.Phil Hudson:I think what they're saying is like, Hey, I have an agent and I've got the spec script. It's a film and my agent says he's not into it. Can I go pitch it myself or do I have to listen to my agent?Michael Jamin:No, you can do whatever you want. I, but I don't expect your agent to help you with that. If you want to go for it, they can't stop you go for it. I mean, the agent's trying to help you, and if they feel like they're helping you, they're going to give you their best advice. But if you don't want to take it, don't take it.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I was listening to an interview with Dead Mouse, and he said that there was a track that he wasn't really into, and his tour manager was like, dude, this is great. You got to drop it. And he didn't want to do it. And for months and months he didn't. And they kept tour manager kept saying, when are you going to drop it? And he ran out of stuff. He dropped it. It's his biggest hit. Sometimes you don't even know what is good for you, but Vice First is sometimes other people don't know what's good for you, and it's all risks, risk and reward. William, go for it. David Cook is Amadeus. Amadeus is I think something that came up in the webinar.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I love that movie.Phil Hudson:Yeah. My wife's favorite film. I think I told you she wants me to name one of our kids, Wolfgang. And I was like, no. And you're like, I might be on her side.Michael Jamin:Wolfie.Phil Hudson:That's what she wants to call him. She wants to name Wolfgang to call him Wolfie, which I think just whatever is Amadeus a story about an extraordinary person in an ordinary world or about Salie, an ordinary person in the extraordinary world of Amadeus.Michael Jamin:That's so interesting. It really is a story within a story, and you keep popping back out to Salieri in present time. Why did he go mad? Because, so yeah, it's a story within a story. There's really two stories. You're watching Solis descent into Madness because he killed this beautiful creature. Why did he do it? Yeah. So who's the hero of that?Phil Hudson:Well, it's called Amadeus.Michael Jamin:It is called Amadeus. Yeah,Phil Hudson:Right. So this is like Sicario. Did you ever see Sicario?Michael Jamin:I did,Phil Hudson:Yeah. So who is it about? Is it about Emily Blunt or is it about Benicio Del Toro and I think it wasn't until I got about three quarters of the way through, I was like, oh, we started on Emily Blunt, but that is not the protagonist.Michael Jamin:It's really just a framing device. The soli part of it. Who's got 90% of the screen time? Amadeus.Phil Hudson:Yep. Alright. Marla wants to know hat on a hat. New favorite saying, do you want to tell people what that is?Michael Jamin:We often say when you refer to a joke, sometimes you put a punchline on top of the punchline. And so we say it's a hat on a hat, ifPhil Hudson:You like that come to the webinar where we can give out that book based on the free ebook based on Michael's notebook, insider Guide to Writing terminology.Michael Jamin:Yeah. There's a bunch of terms that we give away. If you want to learn what they are, come to these webinars and we give 'em away.Phil Hudson:Yeah, everybody gets that for just coming. So I had an eye hat, new favorite. If you base a character on someone in your life or someone in your life recognizes themselves in your writing, can they sue you?Michael Jamin:I don't know. I don't give legal advice, but I'll say you're protected. If you change their name, I would assume you can change their name, you could change their occupation, you could hide who they are. And if they were to come out, they're essentially calling themselves out. Why would they be dumb enough to do that? But I'm not worried about it, but I don't give legal advice. So yeah,Phil Hudson:I think that the person that will need to worry about that is the studio that buys it, and it becomes so wildly successful. That person has a financial incentive to sue you. I don't think it's necessarily something you need to worry about on a spec.Michael Jamin:I would hope not. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Ruth, w what criteria do you consider when taking a job? Early in your career, you worked for both Steve Levitan and Greg Daniels, but then you didn't work on Modern Family or The Office. WhyMichael Jamin:Fired? Oh, fired. Fired. I wasn't offered jobs on Fired. Fired, offered fired. I wasn't offered jobs on those, but I mean, I also had a job. So when Modern Family came out that season, I remember actually meeting with Steve and my partner and I already had a job on, we were running a show called Glen Martin, so it wasn't even like we were trying to get that job. I don't remember what the office was doing, but I'm sure I also had, I've worked every year, I'm sure I also had a job at the time. So a lot of times, and by the way, I've missed out on opportunities, I've missed out on shows that were really big simply because I already had a job and when the show, it's not like this show was going to be a giant hit. You don't know this. Even a great show could be a flop.Phil Hudson:And Glen Martin, that was the first time show running right for you. And C, itMichael Jamin:Was the first time show running, and I was very happy to be running a show. I was like, oh, good. I've never done it before. So it was exciting and I'm glad I did it, but I would've made a lot more money had I been on Modern Family for sure.Phil Hudson:Awesome. Follow up question. When you get to a higher level of writer, say co-producer, do you still need to submit a script to the showrunner or is hiring based on your interview and past EV work you've done?Michael Jamin:Oh no. You almost always, you have to be read. You need a writing sample, and it has to be a current writing sample, and it has to be good. You're never done writing for free in Hollywood. You're always writing.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Derek Nyberg. What if the audience can't differentiate between fiction and reality and carries those powerful story themes into the voting booth? Does this explain why the worst of all possible characters are now elected officials walking around the Capitol building in Washington? Does this explain society's addiction to conflict?Michael Jamin:I don't think the two have anything to do with each other. Just to be clear, I think you're giving us way too much credit that the characters we create somehow become political figures. IPhil Hudson:Think that's like asking, was Shakespeare's success with Caesar, with Julius Caesar or with King Richard III or any of these other things he'd done, was that successful because he wrote them as story and then that led to other people being crazy? Or is it because he was writing about the reality of these people? Life imitates art imitates life, whereas it'sMichael Jamin:Chicken cat. Yeah, it goes in both directions. But basically you take a show like the one Julie Louis Red come on talking about the political, sorry, beep Veep. Yes. Yeah, sorry. That show would not have been made if there already weren't people in politics acting like jackasses because you wouldn't believe you couldn't sell the show. You'd be like, I don't buy that. Any elected official could be that fricking stupid, but because it was already out there, you see it now, you can sell a show on it. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Yeah. That's great. Alright, and this is a comment, not a question, but I thought this was a good way to end this. Braves wants to know, I'm an aspiring screenwriter from India, and the knowledge you share on your Instagram helped me get my first internship. Always look forward to developing my skillset further. Thank you.Michael Jamin:Oh, good for you. Congratulations.Phil Hudson:And that's someone who's not only in your social media, but the webinars, and that's a reminder to everybody to come to the webinars. They're free. We do them very regularly, and there's always something to learn in those.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's it. This is a short one, but thank you everyone. Thanks for listening once again. This episode's brought to you by a paper orchestra, my debut collection of personal essays available. You can get on Amazon, you can get anywhere you want. Barnes and Nobles ApplePhil Hudson:Sign [email protected] Jamin:If you want, get it from me directly, I'll sign it for you. And that's it, Michael. Yeah, thank you so much everyone. Thank you. Thank you for your questions.Phil Hudson:Until next time,Michael Jamin:Keep reading,Phil Hudson:Keep reading. Keep readingMichael Jamin:My book. Read the book. Okay, everyone,Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I love the Journey. And Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/screenwriters-need-to-hear-this/exclusive-content

On this week's episode, I have Writer/Executive Producer, Jonathan Collier (Bones, The Simpsons, King of the Hill, Monk, and many many more) and we dive into the origins of his career. We also talk about his side hustle and how that came about! Tune in as we have so much more.Show NotesJonathan Collier on X: https://twitter.com/collierjonathan Jonathan Collier IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0171927/Jonathan Collier on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_CollierA Paper Orchestra on Website: - https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptJonathan Collier:It was after season eight, and I thought they were trying to get me to go to King of the Hill, and I had whatever, I had the chance to stay at Simpson's. And I thought, well, there's no way it goes past season 10.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Or any show goes past season 10.Jonathan Collier:It just doesn't happen. And so I left. I thought, I kind of felt badly leaving, but I thought, what's much better? Do you want to show with some like in itMichael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase. And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.All right, everyone, welcome back to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? My next guest is an old colleague of mine, old friend from my days on King of the Hill before I let him talk his name's John Coly or welcome to the show, but let me tell you what he's done. The Sky's credits are pretty incredible. So you sit back and relax. Lemme tell you what he's done. So he wrote on The Simpsons. Okay, we've heard of that show and I'm only giving some of the highlights, some of the highlights, some Scooby dos, which I did not know. King of the Hill Monk, the Good Family Bones, the Good Cop Law and Order. I mean, this guy has done well. He's done a lot. But thank you so much, man, for doing the show.Jonathan Collier:Oh, it's a pleasure, Michael. Thank you for having me.Michael Jamin:Let me tell you about who you are because I remember very clearly walking to my, on my way to my office on King of the Hill. Yours was, I would always walk past you and I would often stop and say hello. Or sometimes I would just sit and you always had a big smile. You're always so happy to greet me and have me there. And I never felt like I was getting in the way you Yeah, come on in. Come on. You're always very kind.Jonathan Collier:I am endlessly in search of distractions.Michael Jamin:Well, I do remember walking past you on days when you're on script and just looking miserable. IJonathan Collier:Am. Thank you. Nope, that's exactly it. Well observed. I am never more miserable than I am alone in writing.Michael Jamin:But why is that? Do you feel?Jonathan Collier:Oh, it's a horrible thing to do. TV writing is one of the most fun, engaging, productive things you can do if you're with other people. And I love that part of it. And the small portion of the job that relies on you being alone entails, I should say, you being alone and actually writing something without people around is misery for me.Michael Jamin:But is it the comedy part? You also do drama now? Which one is harder?Jonathan Collier:Comedy is harder.Michael Jamin:Okay. But yeah, I would agree with that as well. But is it miserable to write drama as well?Jonathan Collier:I find the process of keeping stuff alive and interesting and propulsive is really, really hard.Michael Jamin:And how do know? You know when it's alive?Jonathan Collier:What, sorry?Michael Jamin:How do you know?Jonathan Collier:How do I know when it's right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. How do you know?Jonathan Collier:Part of what makes it so miserable is you can always second guess yourself. And even more so when there's jokes involved.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well, for jokes for sure. And what was that transition like for you? I'm amazed that anyone can do it.Jonathan Collier:Oh, I got very lucky. What happened was that King of the Hill was, we got canceled. You remember? It was time. The show got canceled. It was canceled two times.Michael Jamin:We left after the first time.Jonathan Collier:Yeah, left. So it got canceled. And I really realized it was for real when they started moving our furniture out of the officeMichael Jamin:Because you were going to squat there.Jonathan Collier:I had every intention of squatting.Michael Jamin:You thought it was all Big bluff until they moved at the furniture.Jonathan Collier:And so that was happening. And I had done comedy for about 17 years at that point. And I didn't love doing for camera comedy. I liked doing animation and there were no real single camera comics, comedies on the air at the time, and I didn't quite know what to do, but I knew I stopped watching comedies. I kind of could feel the sweat on them and the work on them because I worked in so many comedy rooms. And I got really lucky, which is that Andy Breckman, who was running Monk at the time, who created the show, he used to have three guest writers come in every season. And he did that because he felt like he kept him on track. If you came in as a guest to the room in New York, it made him concentrate and work harder and make sure that in five days you would break a story.Michael Jamin:Why? Because people flew in, you mean?Jonathan Collier:Yeah, because the network would fly, the studio would fly you into New York and put you up and they would only keep you there for five days.Michael Jamin:Okay, that's interesting.Jonathan Collier:I got one of those. So I got one of those guest shots. And the other thing I got way I got lucky wasMichael Jamin:Wait, but how did you get that guest shot?Jonathan Collier:I got that guest shot because this is embarrassing. My agent at the time who I didn't think was doing enough for me, got me a meeting with Andy Breckman, and I thought it was just one meeting with Andy Breckman, who's a great guy, and I love the show, but who knows if it's going to turn into anything. I fired my agent, moved on to another agent, and then Andy called me up and said, oh, we want you to do this episode a month.Michael Jamin:Right.Jonathan Collier:But there was no,Michael Jamin:But I've already fired my agent.Jonathan Collier:That was done. What happened was that, anyway, Andy used to only hire comedy writers to do guest episodes.Michael Jamin:Why?Jonathan Collier:Because his theory was that he could teach a comedy writer how to write a procedural. He could not teach a procedural writer how to be fun. So anyway, they flew into New York, I was in the room, we broke a story and I wrote it and it went well. The whole thing went well, and I got very lucky again because no one had ever really left the show or been added to it. This was the fourth season and one writer was leaving and Andy offered me the job. So I came in and went on staff the next season.Michael Jamin:How many seasons did you do there?Jonathan Collier:I did two more seasons and then the writer's strike of 2007 happened. And when that happened, I didn't know how long that would go on. Mike and the Good Family was starting up and they got what was called a strike waiver, and there were certain production companies and one was MRC, media Rights Capital, and they made a deal with the WGA, with the Writers Guild that they could do shows that were during the strike and it would not be strike breaking to work on those shows if they agreed to abide by the Wgas terms, the writer's terms. The WGA was using that as a tactic to try to force the studios to,Michael Jamin:And it's funny, they didn't really do that this last strike.Jonathan Collier:No, I don't think it really helped.Michael Jamin:You don't think it helped?Jonathan Collier:I don't know if it did or actually, no, I can't say if it did or not. I thought all I can say is I think this last strike was better run than the first one. I think a lot was learned from the first one. Anyway, I left Monk because I got a job right away rather than being strike.Michael Jamin:Right. Let me ask you that. When you're on Monk and you are with procedural writers who are not comedy writers, when they would pitch something that you and I would call a clam, or if you would pitch it in the room at the Simpson, the King of the Hill, someone would say, right? Was there a lot of that going on? Were you the guy who said, yeah, that's not really a joke?Jonathan Collier:Well, no. At Mon though, you had, first of all, it was comedy writers. It was a small staff and it was four people whose background was comedy, including Andy Breckman, and then one High Conrad, who was just a terrific mystery writer. And he had written something like 200 mystery books. Oh,Michael Jamin:Wow.Jonathan Collier:And the way he got on was that Andy met with him and took him out for lunch and said, look, I love your mystery books, and you have two choices. One is you come on staff or two was I'm just going to steal all your plots anyway.Michael Jamin:Oh wow.Jonathan Collier:Hi was on whatever came on staff, and he was on UNK for the whole run. And then he was on The Good Cop with Me Too. It was on, that was another Andy Breckman show.Michael Jamin:Right. It's so interesting. And to what did you think of that world? I mean, compared to comedy?Jonathan Collier:Well, it was a really kind of easy, delicate transition because it was a mystery show once again, written by comedy writers.Michael Jamin:Writers. It was light. It was fun.Jonathan Collier:Yeah. A procedural written by non-com writers would've been a tougher adjustment for me.Michael Jamin:But even the procedural explain to me and everyone else, how do you write a procedural?Jonathan Collier:I think there's many different ways to write a procedural. The way I write a procedural is what really happened comes first.Michael Jamin:What really happens comes first. What does that mean?Jonathan Collier:Okay. What you have to think of is what was our crime? What's the procedure about? What are we investigating?Michael Jamin:Okay, so give me an example.Jonathan Collier:It's not a medical procedural. This is a criminal procedural. I'm talkingMichael Jamin:About, okay, so someone's dead,Jonathan Collier:Someone is dead. And then you have all sorts of questions you can ask that can form the basis for an episode. You can say, oh, is it an accident? Is it a suicide? Is it a murder? If it is a murder, or who did it? Why did they do it? Who could have done it? There any number of, is it an open book where the audience knows what happened? Is it a closed book where the audience doesn't know and learns along with our investigators?Michael Jamin:Did you basically do both?Jonathan Collier:Monk did both opened and closed book. And Monk also did a combination of who done, its who was the killer, why done, its, we know who the killer is, but why on earth would they kill someone? And that's how we can prove they did it. And how done its, it's an incredibly, it's a locked room mystery, for instance, where someone was killed inside the locked room, how did the killer get in there and doMichael Jamin:It? Interesting. HadJonathan Collier:To figure out how the crime was done.Michael Jamin:And so these words are so funny. So as you were breaking the story, you'd break 'em in the room with all the writers, I assume, right? And then throw out ideas, and then someone would say, okay, but let's do this, make it a wide, let's make it a wide done at this week. Is that what it is?Jonathan Collier:Well, I think we'd look at the killing and say, what's a really, really ingenious killing? We could do?Michael Jamin:Okay.Jonathan Collier:Say, okay, let's look at the motive. And then we'd say, last, you'd spend probably say you were breaking a story over the course. If it was just us, we probably spent seven to eight days breaking a story. We weren't having a guest writer in. And the first three or four days probably spent just figuring out how the crime was done and why really gettingMichael Jamin:It seems very hard to me. This seems very hard to me.Jonathan Collier:For me, it was somewhat natural way to do it because it was really fun. And for some, I feel like I was using my comedy muscles, even my plotting muscles to figure out why you did it. And then you work backwards once, and this is just us. Other shows do it different ways. There's probably a million different ways to do it.Michael Jamin:Okay. But you start work backwards. So first you decide if it's going to be a who, what or why is that what it's,Jonathan Collier:First of all, first of all, you can't figure out who kills who and why, who killed who, who kills who. How do they do it, why do they do it, where do they do it? All those things. Then you figure out how do we solve it? And for a show like Monk, he'd also say, well, I have someone who has OCD. I have someone who was painfully shy as someone who was any number of traumas in his life. Also a comic character who happens to be the saddest person on television, and he has a tragedy to his life. And what's the world I can put him in to make him the most uncomfortable?Michael Jamin:Right? And that's how you begin. That's where you start. That'sJonathan Collier:Often where, that's often where the fun of it comes from. The comedy is from seeing him in the world where he's uncomfortable, because comedy is all about discomfort. The emotional story would often come from how he will relate to the world and what it would bring up in his own life. And then the procedural story is how you solve the crime.Michael Jamin:YouJonathan Collier:Go ahead. Sorry.Michael Jamin:No, no, go ahead.Jonathan Collier:The way one could look at it is for us on that show, the procedural story was almost with the armature. It's what you would call the plot, I guess. And the real story was the emotional story that was threaded through the plot.Michael Jamin:Right, of course.Jonathan Collier:And the two of them dovetail and one comment on the other, like a musical comedy, for instance, where songs are the twists, they provide the transition points in the story. You could say the emotional twists or the procedural twists would provide a transition point for each other.Michael Jamin:It still sounds very hard to me. Does it get easier?Jonathan Collier:Well, I think it probably sounds hard because I'm probably overcomplicating it.Michael Jamin:Well, not really, because you're solving, because see, and I are thinking of writing a procedural, and so we're watching some, and I'm like, I don't know. I don't think I know how to do this.Jonathan Collier:Oh, I'll help you with it.Michael Jamin:Oh, good. You're hired.Jonathan Collier:It is not that hard because it's actually easier I found than writing an episode of King of a Hill where someone buys a new hat and it changes their life and life. You have to make a whole story out of that.Michael Jamin:Right. But you still have to figure out, it's a mystery. You're solving a crime and you have to make it so it's smart. I mean, I've watched other ones where they throw in a clue just when you need it, oh good, I dug a new clue so I can figure out another scene.Jonathan Collier:And there's shows that do that. And there's shows that I like, if you don't get a show like Merab Town,Michael Jamin:Right? I haven'tJonathan Collier:Seen it. Okay. That's real lies procedural. And what you realize is it is not about solving the crime. I mean, it's all the crime, but it is really about the emotional drama that's happening. And the crime is, once again, is almost the backdropMichael Jamin:For it. But to me, that's what makes it so that's why I want to get rid of the crime. Can we just focus on the relationship between the mother and the daughter that I get?Jonathan Collier:And the one I thought does comment on the other, and they're both of us family, and I felt like that show worked pretty well. It's very much not a show that I would know how to do.Michael Jamin:Well, and that takes me to law and your latest, but Okay, bones, and let's talk about what you're doing now. That's very different. Law and order.Jonathan Collier:Well, I'm not doing Law and Order now. I stopped after last season.Michael Jamin:Oh, you did? Okay. But that must be very procedural. I mean, procedural.Jonathan Collier:Procedural, very procedural, very different beast. I mean, it was a challenge to figure it out, but I think I'm much more comfortable in this space where there's more character involved.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right. I would thinkJonathan Collier:The part I like best is where I've been most comfortable and enjoyed the most is character driven procedurals.Michael Jamin:Right. Which is kind of like what USA does, right?Jonathan Collier:Well, back when they existed,Michael Jamin:Back when they were doing it.Jonathan Collier:So no, in other shows, there's been a lot of character-based procedurals on TV over the years, and that's what Bones was. Keone was a character-based procedural.Michael Jamin:And you were the showrunner that you were the executive producer?Jonathan Collier:I was the showrunner for a while, yes.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And that was the first time. Was that the first time you ran a show or no?Jonathan Collier:No. I've run another show on the CW called As IfMichael Jamin:Before. Oh. But this is the, I still would imagine now that you're the boss of a procedural, I don't know. I need help. So it seems so hard to me. Wellm hung up on that.Jonathan Collier:I took over a show that was already working veryMichael Jamin:Well.Jonathan Collier:Har Hansen, who created, it was a hundred yards away on the Fox lot in his office. I could always go running to him for help if I neededMichael Jamin:It. Right. And you had the same staff,Jonathan Collier:Sorry.Michael Jamin:And you had the staff, the previous same staff.Jonathan Collier:We had much of the same staff. And I had a co-Ho Runner, Michael Peterson, who was terrific. And I had Steven Nathan, who I took over the show from and only left because I was still a very close friend, and I could call him up whenever I needed to.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Jonathan Collier:I think starting from scratch is always much harder, or walking into a situation not immediately comfortable is always much harder too.Michael Jamin:But now that you've, I see this as opening a lot of doors for you. Has it? Because now you have two genres under your belt.Jonathan Collier:Yes and no. It's always hard. I mean, you have to always be out there in whatever writing. And there's a limited number of jobs that a lot of people want to do, and the people who want to do those jobs tend to be, when you think of it, just in terms of being practical, it's a great profession when you're doing it. But it's one of the stupidest professions to try to do because your competition is really smart, really talented, really talented, really inspired, really wants to do it and works really hard. There's a lot of businesses that aren't like thatMichael Jamin:You are listening to. What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book. Go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.How do you know, were you in a lot of businesses?Jonathan Collier:I have a side business.Michael Jamin:What is your side business? Is it you rent folding shows for parties?Jonathan Collier:Well, no. I actually do multifamily housing.Michael Jamin:Wait. Oh, I knew about this. Right.Jonathan Collier:And believe me, my competition in multifamily housing will be damned if they want to spend 80 bucks to fix the toilet the right way.Michael Jamin:Now, do you build or you refurbish? What does that mean?Jonathan Collier:I do it with a partner who's also a writer, and we refurbish and build and rent.Michael Jamin:And Is it in LA or all over the country?Jonathan Collier:It's in Los Angeles.Michael Jamin:This is amazing. I remember, but I don't know. That's a whole different skillset. Who told you you were qualified to do that?Jonathan Collier:I think we always revert back to who we are,Michael Jamin:Which was, you were always a real estate mogul in the beginning.Jonathan Collier:Oh, I'm not a mogul by any means. We're mom and pop level of multifamily housing, but whatever. My family had small family businesses probably going back to the Middle Ages and they were butchers and bakers and ran a little in, did all those things. And that's where I immediately felt comfortable doing this.Michael Jamin:Really. Was it your idea to get into, how did that idea come up?Jonathan Collier:That came up during the 2007 strike also?Michael Jamin:Yeah, everything comes up during the strike when you're out of work.Jonathan Collier:So you're out of work, you're walking around with a picket sign. Yeah. I was thinking, wait a second. I'm walking around with a picket sign with a lot of angry, middle-aged guys. We're all mad at their fathers and taking it out in the studio.Michael Jamin:Okay,Jonathan Collier:We are at the mercy. We're putting yourself in a position where we're walking around with a sign waiting for a giant multinational corporation to pay us a lot of money to do something that we frankly love to do. And I'm not really in control of my faith here.Michael Jamin:No, we're not.Jonathan Collier:And so that's where my partner and I decided to do it. And then fortunately for us, I know what happened. I talked about it and I started talking about it with one of my daughter's, babysitters.Michael Jamin:How many babysitters does she have?Jonathan Collier:We had a hundred babysitters, a hundred best babysitters in all of LosMichael Jamin:Angeles. She required a lot of babysitters. Okay,Jonathan Collier:Whatever. When we go out, we'd have whatever, five people we call, whatever. And I've all come over at once. This woman was actually getting, I talked to her about it because while she was babysitting for us, she was getting her real estate license.Michael Jamin:Okay. Wow.Jonathan Collier:And so she called me up and said, I have a building for you, and it is a really good deal, and Washington Mutual Bank is trying to unload it really fast. This is now 2008 or so, and the whole real estate market's falling apart.Michael Jamin:And how many units is this building approximately?Jonathan Collier:This building has five units.Michael Jamin:Okay. So it's small. WeJonathan Collier:Did not know what we were doing, but we went and looked at it. We bought it.Michael Jamin:Okay. We had to make a company first. You had to do all the legal stuff.Jonathan Collier:Yeah. We formed what's called an LLC. We talked to a lawyer who was a cousin of someone, and they told us what to do.Michael Jamin:Real estate. As it turned out, a brilliant idea. It was probably the best idea you've ever had in la.Jonathan Collier:It was a very, very lucky time to do it. And so people, I found once again, like I was saying earlier, my competition in real estate was not as talented or hardworking or smart as my competition in television writing, but they were a lot luckier. And just by the strange confluence of events where interest rates went down and the economy started to pick up eventually, we all just by good fortune, by luck, it worked out well. It worked. Yeah.Michael Jamin:This is important because as you mentioned, nothing is guaranteed as a writer, nothing is guaranteed. And so to have something on the side is really helpful. Gives you some breathing. I highlyJonathan Collier:Recommend to people. I always tell whatever, when I talk to actors, I'm always thrilled when I hear that they're writing, even though they tend to be very good writers, and I don't like that. Or when they're doing something, when they're going to law school, when they're doing anything else, it's just nice to have a backup. It helps you sleep better at night.Michael Jamin:It does. Yeah, it really does. What's that?Jonathan Collier:You have your podcast.Michael Jamin:This is my empire, as you see. There youJonathan Collier:Go.Michael Jamin:Yeah. My media empire. Now, you wrote an episode of King of the Hill, because when I talk about King of the Hill, and this is 20 years ago, we were doing it. One episode people often bring up to me is Bobby is the Pygmalion episode, which you wrote.Jonathan Collier:Oh,Michael Jamin:People want to know about that. And we were just joining the show at that time. I'mJonathan Collier:Glad to hear that. I still think about that episode actually, when I said, I hate writing alone. I don't hate all of writing alone. I love the last two or three days of writing alone, punching up. I feel like face with a blank page. And once I've kind of taken a sledgehammer and beaten that script into shape, actually turning it from serviceable to good is actually fun. That part of it. And I remember the last three days or so on that script were really fun.Michael Jamin:But how did it, I mean, that was a departure. I mean, everyone there said, this is the departure. This is the episode, which ended in a really dark place.Jonathan Collier:It was a gothic thriller.Michael Jamin:How did you sell it to Greg? To the staff? I dunno if he was running the show then How did you sell? It was there. It was a departure.Jonathan Collier:Greg was there, so Greg was still there. I don't know if he was officially running the show, but he was there. Greg had to approve everything. He was basically, and Greg, God bless him. Not only did he embrace the gothic nature of it, but he pushed it even more. And some of the really strong gothic elements like killing.Michael Jamin:Yeah. The guy died at the endJonathan Collier:Who loved. I think that may have been Greg's idea.Michael Jamin:Was there a moment though, when you go, wait a minute. Are you sure that this doesn't seem like the tone of the show? I mean, it's mostly Hank watering his lawn.Jonathan Collier:Oh, no. Once we were going to do it, I was off full speed ahead. I wanted to embrace it also. Now, there were other people there at the time. It was a big staff and whatever. Everyone had valid opinions or people who did not embrace it the way that they were entitled to that. But I think we pretty much got the episode we wanted up on the screen forMichael Jamin:Sure, man. I mean, that got some big, I remember watching the Color in the animation. We watched the color in the Room. That's a big, it was like, whoa.Jonathan Collier:Yeah. There were very large twists and turns. Yeah. It is always really fun to push a genre.Michael Jamin:It isJonathan Collier:Carefully, closely observed family comedy and turned it into a large scale gothic drill.Michael Jamin:I had a conversation with Dave Krinsky. He ran the show at one point that, and the funny thing is, because people on social media, they're still watching King of the Hill. I haven't watched it since we were on it, because that's it. You leave it alone, you're onto the next show, and people really remember it. They remember it. They want to talk about it. And I'm like, I'm sorry. I don't really remember this episode. And Krinsky felt the same way, and he ran it. It's like, I don't really remember this. Do you remember everything? Oh, no. No. It's interesting that I think people have this expectation of the writers that we should still be living in it and we can't because we have to move on to whatever else we're writing.Jonathan Collier:Yeah. No, you only have so much room in yourMichael Jamin:Head. Yeah.Jonathan Collier:I mean, part of it is we're too busy hanging on every grudge and slight and moment of shame in our lives to use in our comedy.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well, okay, so I know you don't have too much time, but what do you writing? What do you want to write next? Do you want to write procedural comedy? What do you want to do? IJonathan Collier:Really like the procedural space. I'm working on a procedural right now with a terrific writer who I was on bones withMichael Jamin:To sell as a pitch.Jonathan Collier:Yeah,Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. Well, that makes sense. I mean, and given your track record, I would assume it'd probably be easier for you to sell a procedural. I don't know. There, no,Jonathan Collier:I have no idea. We are in an odd market, so we'll see.Michael Jamin:What do you know about the market? I hear just from talking to other writers, I don't think anybody really know. What do you know about the market?Jonathan Collier:Oh, nothing. I know what I read in the trades. I know what I read in Deadline Hollywood.Michael Jamin:And by that you mean what's getting picked up?Jonathan Collier:Yeah, I know what everyone else knows. I have no information. I do know anecdotally, my friends at least have had trouble selling things.Michael Jamin:They're having trouble selling right now. That's what I'm telling them, because they don't know how much money they have. Yeah.Jonathan Collier:It is an inflection point in the business, and there's been periodic inflection points, whatever, where it's pointed in one direction or another, but no one really knows what they mean while you're in them.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. It's so, so smart about real estate. I'm still hung up on that, and I know this is not a podcast about that, but in a way it is. It's a podcast about having your fingers in many whatever it is, pots or something. Pies. What is it? I don't know what the expression is.Jonathan Collier:It is generally pies.Michael Jamin:Is it? What about a pot pie, like a chicken pot pie? It's generally pies, you said, man. So, okay. So that's kind of what you're taking out there is you're working on, and how often do you meet and do you work on it?Jonathan Collier:Oh, we meet every day really? More or less every day. I like to work for about three or four hoursMichael Jamin:In person. You meet?Jonathan Collier:No, we work on Zoom. And I don't like Zoom rooms, and I've been in some of those, but I like working with just one writer on Zoom, if you know them Well, it's fun. I mean, I found that in a regular room, and I'm sure people have told you this on your podcast and otherwise that, especially when you're No anything character based, any show, if it is not character based, the fun of it really is. And a lot of the creativity comes from what's not going on in the room. It comes from walking to lunch. It comes from Brow Cup coffee. It comes from killing time doing something else on the lot or your office. And that's when the ideas kind of come out of you. And you don't get that on Zoom.Michael Jamin:No, you don't. I wonder. Yeah. So was never Back. The rooms never got back. The last show I was on, it was still Zoom. Have you gone back in person?Jonathan Collier:No.Michael Jamin:No. Isn't that weird?Jonathan Collier:Really? I mean, I helped out, I did some punch up on a movie, and that was in person and on some punch up on an HBO series. Really? That didn't go, but that was whatever, a mini room. And those were both in person, but they were small and they were limited duration. So like a full functioning show in person. I have not done since theMichael Jamin:Pandemic. I wonder. Yeah, I wonder. They're just trying to save money. I don't think they're about saving lives. I think it's about saving money.Jonathan Collier:I think they're saving money. I think that sometimes one thing they found during Zoom is you get to writers in different cities. And so if you have writers in different cities to even the playing field, whatever, everyone's on Zoom rather than someone being in New York and someone being in Seattle and someone being in Los Angeles. But I certainly enjoy and benefit from the physical presence of other writers. It's hard enough to do it much easier and more fun when you're with other people.Michael Jamin:For me,Jonathan Collier:I have worked with writers who love being alone doing it. They have an entirely different experience and approach to it.Michael Jamin:Well, a lot of it's about the commute to work. You're probably central.Jonathan Collier:I'm fairly central, but I know people who actually, they don't want to be in a room. I've worked with wonderful writers who would much prefer to be alone and knock it out.Michael Jamin:Do you like going, working on set? Do you like being on set?Jonathan Collier:Yeah, I do. I mean, I think it depends. Every set has its own character politics, and it's not particularly fun being on set if you have a difficult lead or whatever, if there's something going on there or if there's tension between the stars or if there's, there's any number of ways you can have tension on the set. By and large, I've been very lucky. They've been good sets, and it's been fun. And also, it's the last step and whatever. One thing you realize on the set is when you spend significant time on the set, you realize how many people are really offering the show that you may have ridden,Michael Jamin:That you may have, I'm sorry, what?Jonathan Collier:Your name is on a script, but everyone on that set, hair and makeup, your whatever, your director, everyone has your camera operators. They're all helping create that show.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Jonathan Collier:Writers in their own way, and they're adding elements to it.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And I know I have to ask this because we have so many fans of The Simpsons, but what was that whole experience like for you? Because you were there in the early days?Jonathan Collier:Fairly early days. It was really, first of all, it was a huge break in my career that was good for me. I didn't have my first child until very late in my stay there. And that changed everything where suddenly, oh wait, sitting here with our comedy writers till 1130 at night might not be as energizing and fun when you have a baby to get homeMichael Jamin:ToJonathan Collier:That you want to see. So the hours were fairly brutal back then, but I still wouldn't trade it for anything.Michael Jamin:I can't imagine, though, that the hours were like that now, right?Jonathan Collier:No, they're fairly from what friends, were still there. And the hours are very sane now. And they're generally home for dinner.Michael Jamin:I mean, that's so interesting is that they've made a career that show's been on 30, what, 35 years or something?Jonathan Collier:Oh, yeah. And they can still turn out some terrific episodes,Michael Jamin:But it's a career. Your career, okay. You might as well be working at Exxon. That's your career. You get a gold watch and then that's you're done.Jonathan Collier:When I left, it was after season eight, and I thought they were trying to get me to go to King of the Hill, and I had whatever, I had the chance to stay at Simpson's. And I thought, well, there's no way it goes past season 10Michael Jamin:Or any show goes past season 10.Jonathan Collier:It just doesn't happen. And so I left. I thought I kind of felt badly leaving, but I thought, what much better do you want to show with some life in it?Michael Jamin:Yeah. But then again, it's also these people that's, they have job security, which is unheard of in Hollywood.Jonathan Collier:It is absolutely unheard of. And no, actually, that's one of the great gigs to have right now.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. For sure. For sure. I know you got to go. We talked about this earlier, but I want to thank you in person as we want to hang up and then briefly thank you, and then I'll let you leave.Jonathan Collier:Oh, thank you for having me. This was really fun.Michael Jamin:This is, honestly, it was so interesting catching up and just hearing your perspective on all this. And yeah, you're going to be our, if the show ever goes, you're our first hire to make a procedural. I don't know how to make, I don't know how to do any of this. Oh, thank you. Yeah.Jonathan Collier:Are we on air now or are we recordingMichael Jamin:Still? Not yet. I'll sign off and I'll stop recording. Okay. Okay, everyone, thank you so much. That was John Collier. Great guy. Okay,Jonathan Collier:Everyone. He promised me a job on air. You heard it.Michael Jamin:I did say that. Yeah, but there's always got to go. That's a bigger, so it's an empty promise. So, all right, everyone, thank you so much. Go. Yeah. A paper orchestra dropped this week, my new collection of True [email protected]. Go check it out. Alright, everyone, thanks so much. Until next week. Keep writing.Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support this show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved The Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/screenwriters-need-to-hear-this/exclusive-content

On this week's episode, I have actress Paula Marshall (Euphoria, Walker, Gary Unmarried, and many many more) and we dive into the origins of his career. We also talk about how she dealt with being a new mom and working on a sitcom at the same time. There is so much more so make sure you tune in.Show NotesPaula Marshall on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thepaulamarshall/?hl=enPaula Marshall IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005191/Paula Marshall on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_MarshallA Paper Orchestra on Website - https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptPaula Marshall:But a lot of parents, they go to jobs and then they come home or they don't work at all, and then it's just mom 100% and they're probably exhausted and happy. Some of my friends, I feel like they're like, I'm so glad. Finally I get to whatever. And either they're retiring and they get to go travel and like, no, I'm an actor. I'm looking for a gig, whatever. I don't think actors ever truly retire. I think we don't. I don't.Michael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations and writing, art and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase. And to support me on this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Welcome everyone. My next guest is actress Paula Marshall. She has been, I worked with her years ago on a show called Out of Practice, I think it was like 2005. But Paul, before I let you get a word in edgewise, I got to tell everyone, your credits are crazy long, so your intro may take a long time. So I'm going to just give you some of the highlights to remind you of your incredible body of work here. Really these are just the highlights. She works a ton. So well, let's see. I guess we could start with One Life To Live. That might've been your first one. Grapevine Life goes on. Wonder Years Seinfeld. I heard of that one. Perry Mason diagnosis. Murder Wild Oats. I'm skipping here. Nash Bridges. You did a couple Chicago Suns Spin. City Cupid Snoops Sports Night, the Weber Show. It doesn't end.Just shoot Me, which I worked on. I didn't even know you were on that. Maybe I wasn't there. Hitting Hills and Out of Practice, which we did together. Veronica Mars, nip Tuck, shark ca Fornication. You did a bunch of Gary Unmarried House friends with Benefits, the exes CSI, the Mentalist, two and a Half Men Murder in the First Major Crimes. What else have we got here? Goer Gibbons, I dunno what that is. You have to tell me what that is. And then Modern Family Euphoria. You did a bunch of them. Walker. Paula, I'm exhausted and I'm going to steal your joke here. You can because I'm going to say you're Paula Marshall, but you may know me as Carla Gina. That's what used to tell me CarlaPaula Marshall:And I know Carla,Michael Jamin:But knowPaula Marshall:She's like the younger version of me. Slightly shorter,Michael Jamin:Bigger, bigger. Boop. But you have done so much. I'm going to jump, I'm going to jump into the hardest part. I'm wondering if this is the hardest part for you is being a guest star on a show because you have to jump in with the cast, you have to know the rules and everything. Is that harder?Paula Marshall:Yes, a hundred percent. It's harder when I guest star on any shows, if I haven't seen the show, I watch three or four on YouTube just so I know who's who and the vibe and the energy. When I guest star on Modern Family I their last season and some could say I canceled the show by being there. I've been called a show killerMichael Jamin:Before. I remember You don't let Right.Paula Marshall:I still have not let that go. I like to say I've just worked on so many different shows at its peak and then it died anyway. It's hard because they're all in a flow and depending on the other actors, how cool they are to kind of throw the ball at you.Michael Jamin:But do you have to identify who's the alpha dog on set? Is that what your plan is? It'sPaula Marshall:Pretty clear right away. Really? Yeah. I mean besides whoever's first on the call sheet, I remember one of the producers of Snoop's, David Kelly's first big bomb. That was me.Michael Jamin:It was a sure thing what happened?Paula Marshall:You know what? I'm not sure. Well, when it was supposed to be a comedy quickly turned into a drama, it was not great. But as one of the producers of Snoop said, you don't fuck with the first person on the call sheet. You don't fuck with him. And so you identify that person and depending, it's funny because I've worked with so many great people and so many assholes too. Like David Deney. Damn, is he cool? He's so nice. When I worked on fornication with him, he set a tone for just the set, the crew, the actors, this freedom just to try things. And I remember during my, it was like the first day naked throwing up,Michael Jamin:Wait, were you nervous? Why were you throwing up?Paula Marshall:Hello? Of course. But IMichael Jamin:Remember you're never nervous, Paul, let me tell you who you were. I'm totally nervous. No, you're the most self-assured person probably I've ever worked with. You're very confident.Paula Marshall:Thank you. I'm actingMichael Jamin:Acting.Paula Marshall:But California occasion, it was my first day onset naked, fake fucking. And I remember standing there, it was yesterday, and either tweaking you and touching you up. And I say to everyone, what's amazing, what I'll do for $2,900 when a strike is pending? It was the writer's strike way back in the day. And I remember getting this part on fornication and I'm like to all the girls in the audition room, when we used to have auditions in rooms with other people, I looked around, I'm like, we're not going to really have to be naked. We're not those type of actresses. And they're like, no, no, no. And I'm like standing there. Yeah, yeah. I was naked.Michael Jamin:Was that your first time in a show being naked? I meanPaula Marshall:ToplessMichael Jamin:ShowPaula Marshall:On a show?Michael Jamin:Yes. Because you were in a model, I'm sure as a model, you're doing wardrobe changes all the time.Paula Marshall:I used to model. I was naked a few things back in the day.Michael Jamin:So were you really nervous about it? I mean, I imagine you would be, butPaula Marshall:Standing there naked is one thing. You just kind of have to dive in the pool, in the cold, cold pool and let it go because you got to put on the confident jacket, I guess I obviously wore a lot around you, but I mean it's more uncomfortable, the fake sex scenes, it's more technical and awkward. It's just but nervous. I dunno. Yeah, you're excited. But I'm also excited when I walk on stage on a sitcom before, if I'm not already in the set, when they start rolling, I'm backstage. How's my hair? Shit, how am I doing? Okay? I get hyped up until you do it once and people laugh and you're like, oh,Michael Jamin:Okay. Are you worried about going up on your lines at all? Is that at all you're thinking about?Paula Marshall:Yes, especially now. Oh shit, my memory. It's just that prevagen, I'm going to look it up later, but yeah, you do. But if you in a sitcom situation, we run it, we rehearse it all week. StillMichael Jamin:The lines are changing all week. That's all IPaula Marshall:Know. But they're changing all week. But then you run it and you drill it on TV shows like euphoria or whatever. Yeah, you run it. But then again, they don't really change the lines at all. But yeah, you were a little bit, but then you got a great script supervisor that you're like, I'm up. And then they say it and then you go back and you do it. But yeah, always, I'm always really nervous until maybe the second takeMichael Jamin:Of any, the hardest thing it seems to me is just like, okay, you're naked and you have to forget that there's all these people there. You havePaula Marshall:ToMichael Jamin:Completely, it's almost like you're crazy to have to be able to forget that,Paula Marshall:Michael, when you paid $2,900.That's right. I was shocked. That's all you get for being naked. Yeah, you do. You are nervous. But I don't know. I was 40 then, so I looked pretty good naked, although I only had four days notice. Back then we didn't have ozempic, so I was like, okay, I can't, no salt, no bread. And I remember in that shot that the camera guy, they decided in the moment, Hey, can you walk over to David? And then bent over, he's on the bed and then kiss him. I'm like, well, that depends. What's your lens there? You got there? And I'm like, how wide is your lens? And he looked at me and I'm like, I'm a photographer. I like taking pictures. So I know. And I'm like, so I'm going to bend over with my white ass and I had four days notice on this and my ass is just going to be in the pretty much. And you're like, okay, I could do it. But you hope for body makeup. I don't know. Don't you think I had any, I should have demanded bodyMichael Jamin:Makeup. And this was probably even before there were, what do they call them now? IntimacyPaula Marshall:Coordinators?Michael Jamin:Yes. Right.Paula Marshall:I mean, here's the thing. I guess it helps when you're not a loud mouth person like me. And even then it's hard to go, Hey dude, keep your tongue in your mouth. You don't want it in your mouth. Sometimes you're like, damn. He's a great kisser. Jason Bateman, I enjoyed the tongue in my mouth. SoMichael Jamin:It kind of dependsPaula Marshall:On who's sticking in the tongue. But the intimacy coordinator, I think it's just so people know what's going to kind of happen and get it. But California case, no, we didn't have that. This movie I was naked on with Peter Weller called The New Age. No, I remember in the middle of the scene, I'm on the bed and he's looking down at me and during one take he decides to suck on my nipple. Shocking. I turned bright red, which is what I do when I get nervous. And I'm like, dude, what are you doing? He goes, I dunno, I just thought it'd be fun. I'm like, okay. And I don't think they used it, but if there was an intimacy coordinator back then, I probably would've known.Michael Jamin:Yeah. So it'sPaula Marshall:Good I guess. But it's corny and you feel silly.Michael Jamin:Oh my God, I'm glad you mentioned the photography thing. That was one of my memories from working together and out of practice. This was before people had camera phones and cell phones and you carried a camera everywhere. And I remember thinking, you're the star of a sitcom. You're the star. I mean, you're an artist doing her craft, and yet it's still not enough that you wanted to work on something. You wanted to do something else as well.Paula Marshall:Maybe it's my parents growing up, they always had these really cool black and white pictures of them. And I used to look at them and go, wow, that was your life then. And it was hard to even imagine when they were so young. And so it's like photos are life to me. And I guess I don't want to forget the moments of my life that are important. And so I always would bring a camera with me on set, on location more than sitcom stages aren't as conducive to really cool shots. But yeah, I like capturing life.Michael Jamin:And you're still doing it on 35Paula Marshall:Millimeter? I still do it, although I did give in and I have a digital now because it's easier. It's easier. Develop film.Michael Jamin:Many. You took my headshot from me and for many years I way too long. I used that as my headshot.Paula Marshall:Yeah, it was good. I rememberMichael Jamin:It was great. And I wore Danny's shirt, you go, yeah, put this on. You look terrible. Whatever I was wearing, stillPaula Marshall:Do that. People still come over my friends and I'm like, you need a headshot. Put Danny's shirt on. He has some nice shirts.Michael Jamin:It's so funny.Paula Marshall:Yeah, I do. I still like taking pictures.Michael Jamin:I got to share another memory I had from out of practice, which I cherish this one. So it was right before it was show night for some reason. I don't know why. I had to run up pages to the cast. And maybe you were in the green room or you were somewhere upstairs. I don't know what the hell dressing. I don't know what was going on. I knock on the door and all of you we're standing in a circle holding hands. And Henry goes, Michael, you're just in inside. Come on in. And then I go in time for what? And then he tapped. This blew my, I love this memory. And you guys were just like, I don't know what you would call it, but you were invoking a good show to be supportive of each other and to be brave and true. And I was like, I can't believe I felt so honored that I was included in, I was like, are you serious,Paula Marshall:Henry? I actually forgot that memory and thank you for reminding me of it. Henry's just, he's something special.Michael Jamin:He is.Paula Marshall:I know there's rumors. Oh, who's the nicest guy in Hollywood? Henry Winkler. It's because it is, is I could text him right now and he would literally text me. Within eight minutes he will text me back. Oh, Paula, it's been so, he's just a dear. And so he is, again, back to the, when you go on set and who creates that energy? Although Chris Gorham, I think was the first on the call sheet, not Henry Winkler, but Henry was our dad. I mean, he was such a pro and yeah, he just created this lovely energy there.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Oh wow. So that's not common then for other shows that you've worked on. People don't do that. That's not a theater thing. It seems like a theater thingPaula Marshall:You would think. I think, I don't know, maybe it was a happy days thing.Michael Jamin:Why don't you start it on your next show? Why don't you start doingPaula Marshall:It? I think I might. I'm going to make it now.Michael Jamin:I thought it was so interesting. I was like, wow. But it's getting back to that first point, even the first, the first person on the call sheet technically is the head cheese. But they might not be the most difficult by far at all. I mean, you don't know who's the boss. That's true, right?Paula Marshall:I mean sometimes the and character is an asshole. I mean, I think mostly people when they don't really want to be there, they kind of rebel. I've always wanted to be on a sitcom. IMichael Jamin:Remember. Did that change? Oh, go ahead, please.Paula Marshall:I just remember, I believe my first sitcom was Seinfeld. I may have done a guest spot on some other one that maybe never aired or I can't remember. Or maybe I just think it's cooler to say my first sitcom was Seinfeld. I'm not sure. But that show, I don't know. There's a magic. But they didn't do any of that either. But they kind of really invited me in and I dunno, I'm just thinking,Michael Jamin:Do you prefer to do sitcoms, multi-camera sitcoms? Yes. Yes. Because the audience.Paula Marshall:Because the audience, because it's a high, I've never gotten anywhere else in my life. Not that I need to be high, but damn. When you go out and you make people laugh with a look or a line or a physical movement, I mean it's magic. And working with the actor, knowing more like theater, which by the way, I've never doneMichael Jamin:Well, why don't you do theater then?Paula Marshall:I don't know. I don't know. I'll call my agent another thing I'll write down.Michael Jamin:Yeah, do that.Paula Marshall:But probably only if it's a comedy. But it's that magic that you don't have to go and do another take and then they turn around and then you got a close up again. I mean, it's boring. Like our television, there's no magic in itMichael Jamin:Ever.Paula Marshall:Except on euphoria. I have to say there's magic there.Michael Jamin:Why do you say that?Paula Marshall:Because the writing directing the story level of, I mean, when Marsha is my character, when Marsha actually had a couple things to say. I remember I called or I spoke with Sam Levinson and I was like, dude, it's me, right? You wrote an eight page monologue almost for Marsha to say. And he goes, yeah, I can't wait to see it. And I'm like, oh my God. I was so nervous. I studied for three weeks. There was no rewrites. And then it's me and Jacob all Lorde on set. And we get there and there's no rush, there's no limitation. There's just like, what do you want to do? And he's like, I kind of feel like you're doing this and then you're doing the cookies and a lot of movement. But we did it until it felt good, and then we knew it, and there was a magic there. No one's laughing at me. But there's something special about that show. I mean, I've heard rumors like, oh, and on set. And I'm like, ah, not for me. Not for me at all. Not for you. No, it's amazing.Michael Jamin:What do you do though? When you're on set and you have an idea how you want to play or speech, how you want to deliver speech, and your scene partner is just on doing something completely fucking different. How do you handle that?Paula Marshall:If you know, don't have a say, meaning you're a guest, darn. You do what they tell you to. How high do you want me to jump? That's what you do. But if you're working together and you're equal parties, you probably have run it before. But I would say if they're not doing something that I want, then I use it and I am frustrated in the scene, or I just use whatever they're giving me because that's all I got. And I try to put that into my character.Michael Jamin:How much training have you had though? That's very actor speak.Paula Marshall:It really did sound a little actory, and IMichael Jamin:Apologize for that. No, it's good. I like it.Paula Marshall:I mean, I don't know. I lived in New York City and I took acting class with this guy named Tony Aon and Jennifer Aniston was in my class and Oh wow.Just a bunch of young people, but not all that much. Not all that much. I think the comedy thing, I didn't even know I was funny with Seinfeld, the guest stars aren't usually funny in sitcoms. The lead, the main characters, the stars of the show are funny guest stars just kind of throw the ball and you know what I mean? But something happened after I was on Seinfeld and then I read for, I guess it was Wild Oats, which was with Paul Rudd and Jan Marie hpp. And Tim Conlin. It was a sitcom on Fox. It was the same year that another show called Friends was coming out. And I remember them. Someone was interviewing us saying, oh, there's another show that NBC is doing with a group of friends. It's kind of like yours. And we're all friends. What's that cut to?And ours was canceled after one season, but I think the first time I was like, oh shit, I can do this. I know how to deliver a joke. But I never learned that again. It just happened one year in pilot season just kind of happened. And my agents were like, oh, Paul is funny. Okay. And then one time I remember I read for a pilot, after you do so many comedies, then people go, well, she's a comedic actress, she can't do drama. And then you're like, the fuck. Of course I could do drama. I remember one time during this callback, no original, just the first audition. And I had heard the casting director doesn't think or only thinks you're funny, doesn't think you're as good. Dramatic. Wow.Michael Jamin:Obviously if you could do comedy, you could do drama.Paula Marshall:No, you would think it's the other way around. It never works. It is really hard to doMichael Jamin:Comedy.Paula Marshall:But literally, I was like, well, I'm so angry that she thinks I can't. Finally, they couldn't find this girl, the character for the pilot. And then they finally, okay, Paula, we'll see her. So I get in there, and it was Davis Guggenheim was the director. I love Davis. After I read, I think it was three scenes. And during the last scene, I broke down and I was in tears over something and I look up with, you couldn't have placed the tear better. And I look up and I ended the scene and Davis goes, my god, Paula Marshall, you are one fine actress. And I do this. I look at the casting drifter and I go, you see, I'm not just funny. And I grabbed my bag and I walked out and I go, well, I just fucked myself for any future director again. There was something that came over me and I was like, I need you to know that I am not just one thing or the other. And then Davis probably three weeks later, texts me, I've been fighting every day for you. And I'm like, what are you talking about when you get these weird texts from people? I'm like, did I get the part? I got the part and they didn't want to see me.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting. I mean, obviously you're a working actor, you work a lot. You're successful, and yet you still feel like you're placed in this box and you have to prove yourself and get out of it.Paula Marshall:But there's something I really love about, there's part of me that I want to read, and I want everyone to look at that tape and go, fuck, I wish we could hire her. I wish there weren't the limitations and we didn't have to pick Carla at you now or whatever. I wish we could pick Paula. I want them to go, fuck man. She was really good. I want to stick in their brain. I always would cancel auditions if I wasn't ready for it. If I really knew I wasn't going to kill it, I wouldn't go, or I won't put myself on tape. I don't have enough time to prepare for it because that's the last thing they see of you.Michael Jamin:IPaula Marshall:Want it to be the best thing they see of me. So I only want to leave them with that because they're not going to remember that other stuff.Michael Jamin:That's a good point though. Are you doing a lot of self tape now? Is there anything in person?Paula Marshall:I have not had any auditions in person yet. Wow. Her actress ever Carradine. I think she's had her third one, and she always posts about it. She's so cute. And I think she booked one. No, I have a room now in my house. It's the tape room. And I've got a nice beauty light and I've got the tripod again. It's kind of easy for me because I have photography stuff.Michael Jamin:But who are you acting again or does Danny help you out?Paula Marshall:Well, Danny will sometimes read with me. My daughter would read with me. And sometimes when I'm all by myself, I read with myself. I will have a tape of the other voice, which is, or sometimes I leave space and then I put the audio in later. I mean, it's crazy the stuff that happens during Covid. We've got very creative over here.Michael Jamin:But in some ways though, because this sometimes a casting director is like, yeah, yeah, there couldn't be more wooden. And so in some ways it's got to be easier for you, right?Paula Marshall:Yes and no. Yes, because I get to pick the take I want,Michael Jamin:Right?Paula Marshall:Two, because two, I didn't even say one a b, I don't get nervous, so there's no nerves to hold me back or Oh man, I should have done it. Or I mess up. I just do another take. But then there's also, there's something about going in and being vulnerable in front of all those people and showing them what you can do. And especially in a comedy, I, it was like a zoom callback for a comedy. And I live in the hills and maybe it was the wifi or that slight timing was off just enough or the reader wasn't funny and I'm trying to connect with this dot. It was hard. There was no magic in it and you couldn't feel the other person. And so I think in a way, it's good in a way. It's really not good. So I'm willing to do whatever to get anything because I pay for college.Michael Jamin:But also, there's also the fact the to drive across town, I mean, that's got to get old, right? Driving everywhere.Paula Marshall:But when you're an actor, everything stops. You get a script, everything stops. You're not making dinner, you're not going out, you're not watching that movie or the show. You drop everything and then you focus on it. And hopefully, thankfully, because of the strike and the new negotiations that they got for us, I think we don't have to do a self tape over the weekend. We need to have enough time to actually prepare for it, which is amazing. Most of the time. Gary unmarried, I think I got the audition at eight o'clock in the morning. It was to meet producers at 11 o'clock the next day. And you're like, ah, okay, here I go. It's really hard to put all that energy and to them something great. And I never understand why you're casting people or producers. Don't give us more time because we want to give you something great. We don't want to go in there and read. I don't. I want to perform for you. And it's hard to do when I don't have enough time to do it. I also have a life, so I have other things, but you kind of do. You really drop it. You drop everything for an audition.Michael Jamin:It's interesting though. I want to get touched on something you said. You said it's hard to be vulnerable on camera, but then you said comedy, and do you feel like it's harder to be vulnerable? Because when I think of vulnerable, I think drama, not comedy.Paula Marshall:Yes. But there's nothing funnier. I remember my husband in many situations will say, I'll be upset or crying and I'll say something really funny, but humor comes out of the reality, like your honest to goodness, open soul, like your heart. The funniest stuff I think comes out of me when I'm in a vulnerable position, if I'm angry, if I'm sad when I'm just feeling whatever. So I don't know. I think in many sitcoms I've cried. And how do youMichael Jamin:Get past that though? How do you get past that vulnerability thing? I mean, are you a hundred percent past it or is there any reservations?Paula Marshall:Ask that again. Sorry.Michael Jamin:Very clear saying, well, when you're vulnerable on camera or trying to be, can you go, I don't know. Is there a limit to your vulnerability, do you think on camera or are you willing to go there all the time? As much, as far as you want?Paula Marshall:I guess so most of the time it depends on how much tears you have. And I usually, if the writing is good, and that's the big if this thing that I ended up booking with Davis Guggenheim, it was with John Corbett, and I had to cry and it was maybe like a steady cam up the stairs and going, and I break down and I crumbled to my knees, and I swear to God, I did it. Maybe 17 takes. And then we come around and turn around on him and I end up crying again. And John, after we, they yelled cut, he goes, Paula, what are you doing? Why are you crying again? I go, I don't know. The words are making me cry. I'm just tapped in doing it. They wipe it away. But you got to be careful because I'm vain and you got to look like you're not crying, and I'm really crying.So I get red and my eyes get bloodshot. You look different and the snot and you got to fix the whatever, makeup. But no, but when it's great, when the writing is great, of course, usually you don't have to do it. 17 takes, it was just had a lot to do with the steady cam and whatever. But usually you do it in three takes and you nail it and it's good, and they're like, wow, that was great. Let's move on. So you don't really have to in a movie, if you nail it, you nail it and they move on.Michael Jamin:What do you do though when you're in it and you feel like you're slipping out of it?Paula Marshall:Okay, so that when I drink this, soI have at least one of those before every tape night, I've always drink a Coke. If I can't, the writing isn't talking to me. If I can't relate to it, I do that substitute thing. If I have to cry, and this is really not making me cry, the subject and the words I substitute for something else that makes me cry. I'm a freakishly emotional person. I cry a lot. I'm very sensitive. You wouldn't really think that because kind of like Danny calls me bottom line, Marshall, and I'm very tough and whatever and no nonsense. And I say it like it is, and I will always tell you if you look fat in that dress, I like to be honest, but I don't know.Michael Jamin:But is there a moment where you feel like you're okay? You're on, you're giving a speech, you're in a scene, and then you're like, oh, I'm acting now.Paula Marshall:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, every once in a while, I mean, I'll finish the scene. I don't want to stop myself. They might like it and for whatever reason, but I'll always say, can I have another one? Can I please have another one? Or Oh my gosh, I really like the second take. Just can you make a note of that, that the second take was much better. They know it's obvious when you see someone telling the truth, it's obvious which one is better, but you can't just tell the truth once and then move on because you don't know. Maybe there was a sound issue on that take. No. So it's tricky. Every once in a while you think you have it. The crappy thing is when they come around to you or they start on you and then you finally figure something out. I remember Bette Midler, we were doing the scene and they were on us first.It was a movie, I guess Danny and I did the scene together and it was bet opposite on a table. And they go to her, they turn the camera on her, and then she goes, oh, I just figured it out. We're like, no, the opposite. We did her first. Forgive me. We did her first and then they came on us. And then she goes, oh, I just figured out the scene. Can I do it again? And Carl Reiner's like, no, we got to move. No, we're out of here. So sometimes it takes a while to figure it all out, and she just thought she didn't nail it. It's Bette Midler. She nails every take all the timeMichael Jamin:You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.Do you have these conversations with them? Do you have conversations with actors with more experience and I don't know, are you still trying to learn from them?Paula Marshall:I just pay attention to what they're doing. I don't think I pick their brains like that, but I just watch them and I watch and I seeMichael Jamin:What are you looking for?Paula Marshall:Well, sometimes technically how they do it. I remember my first movie, Hellraiser three, I learned a lot about continuity,Which is something they don't really teach in acting class. If I'm going to play my drink up and sip it, I have to do that every single time. If I'm going to eat in the scene, I got to do it every single time, and I have to figure that out. And you have to really, if you're really going to eat, you got to really eat. Not teeny little bites, make your choice. But I learned things from different people. I remember Robert Duvall, I played his daughter in a movie and he would act and he kept going until his body knew it was over. And I remember the director had yelled cut at one point and he got really mad. He goes, I wasn't done, but he had finished talking. And he goes, I'm still acting here. It's like, I'm still walking here. But it was like, I'm still acting.I'm still doing, there's still so much more there. I observe and I see how they deal with issues and problems in their focus. ISHKA Harte guest star on that show of hers, and we auditioned a lot in the beginning. We came up at the same time and just everything was so serious to her. She really so passionate about her show and she threw away nothing. It was really kind of impressive after a hundred seasons now that she cared so much because some people after four Seasons, they're like ready to go. They're like, I got a movie down, I'm ready to go. But there's certain people like Maka who from day one till again, I think it's 25 seasons or 24 or something crazy. I remember when I worked with her and I hadn't seen her in 15 years or something, I just am like, God, how rich is she? And so instead I was like, tacky. I'm not going to say that. So again, I walk up to her and it was emotional that we hadn't seen each other in so long. I hugged her and I said, how big is your house? She goes, I can't complain.Michael Jamin:I'm like,Paula Marshall:But she's very passionate and so many actors are, and then there's some who are not and who are ready to goMichael Jamin:And who are they? Not names, but why are they there? Are they just rock stars who became actors? You don't know. It just falls into a job like that.Paula Marshall:There was one person and he just seemed really angry all the time. I don't think he was just a happy person. If you don't like doing this, I'm not sure why you're doing it. I don't know. There's just something inside you. I mean, this is the greatest thing ever to be paid to do what you love. And again, when my daughter said she wanted to be an actress, an actor, sorry, I was so happy. I was like, that's where I found joy in my life. I grew up in Rockville, Maryland, and I didn't know anybody, and I just watched the Mary Tyler Moore show, and I went, yep, that's what I want.How do I do that? I had no idea, none. And to find joy there. So when a person is coming to set and they're angry, it could be, they don't like the words actors are very particular about. If your dialogue is not great, it's really hard. It's so much easier when you have great dialogue and the scene makes sense and the relationships you buy them. It's so easy to do it. It's effortless and it's so real and it's so honest. And then when you've got this other stuff and you have to say the name of the person to remember that it's very cookie cutter network television, which you would think at this point would look at streaming and go, yeah, there's always something right over there because the quality is just beyond Well,Michael Jamin:How did you figure it out then? Okay, you're in Maryland. How did you figure out you stopped in New York first. What was that about?Paula Marshall:Did I moved to New York? I modeled in Georgetown as a local model there, doing little ads for Montgomery reward. And I didn't really want to go to college. My parents didn't make me go to college. I think I had two grand in my pocket from doing things here and there. I started doing commercials locally. And this woman by the name of Jay Sumner, who was the booker at this modeling agency called Panache, she said, we were at Champions. It was a bar called Champions. And though how I was there drinking at the bar, I don't know, I think I was 18. She said, Paula, you're so much more interesting in person than you are in a piece of paper, meaning I'm pretty, I'm good enough on paper, but you're so much more interesting in real life. And she goes, I think you should be an actress.And I'm like, okay, really? And I'm like, well, I always used to watch Mary Taylor Moore and all of that, but I'm from Maryland, how am I going to do? And she goes, I know somebody. I know someone in New York named Dian Littlefield, who's a manager, and I can set you up with a meeting. I'm like, what? So I ended up moving to New York City. Modeling was my waitressing job. I got a lot of money. It didn't take a lot of time. It was really easy. I love photography. So there was that connection that I wasn't just sitting there like an idiot with bathing suits or lingerie or junior wardrobe or whatever. So that was kind of my waitressing job to allow me to pay for rent and acting classes. And then I was like, you know what? I think I really like it. It's true. Just a piece of paper. And it's funny, I love taking pictures. I love stopping life, but there was just, I guess more to me than just the piece of paper. So I guess that's kind of how it happened.Michael Jamin:How did LA happen then?Paula Marshall:So I would audition test for a lot of things. I would fly to LA for different pilot projects. I would read in New York, and then most of the things were shooting in la, not New York at all back then. So I would fly to LA and I think it was just one of my agents said, look, Paul, if you really want to do this, you got to live in la,Michael Jamin:Right?Paula Marshall:I was like, ah, okay. So I moved to LA and yeah, and I was young and 20, I think I was 25 when I moved here, kind of old to kind of start, but I looked really young. And when you read for enough things and enough people are interested, the head of my agency said to me after a pilot, I, or I tested for something and I didn't get it. And he told me back when we didn't have computers, we had to go pick up our scripts and there would be a box outside the script, their office, after hours, he would look through and go, these are my scripts. In the middle envelopes, it says Paula Marshall on it. Anyway, I was kind of sad and I'm like, I don't know. I'm not booking anything. And he goes, but you're testing a lot. You're very close. And I'm like, what does it take? What am I lacking? What am I missing that I'm not booking the thing? He goes, I believe in you and you need to keep doing this. And then I did. I slowly would start booking things.Michael Jamin:What were you lacking? Do you know?Paula Marshall:Maybe it was the confidence, maybe I was really nervous. I remember one time, I think it was during the Flash, it was a pilot called The Flash with John Wesley ship, and Amanda pays Amanda Paynes. Anyway, ended up booking it. But I remember in the audition room, I think it was at NBC or I don't know, one of the big three, the scene, I put my hand on my knee and I was shaking so much from being nervous that I was like, oh, stop doing that. I don't want them to know. I'm nervous because they want everyone to be fearless and confident.And I get that because it takes a lot to go stand in front of a bunch of people and say stuff over and over, or stand there and be naked and do it over and over. There's got to be part of you that's kind of cocky and confident, and not that you think that you could do that over and over with someone else's words. I mean, it's kind of crazy that I do this, but I don't know what tipped me over the scale. I never gave up. And I kept doing it and trying to figure it out and asking and asking the casting directors, and they always say nice things. They never say, well, you messed this thing. No, it's just there's a magic. If I don't book something now, I don't take it personally. Someone else just had a little bit more magic that day, and they tapped into the character and the writer saw that person that they wrote down and spent so many hours writing that Blonde Girl or Carla Gino just got it better than I did. Okay. IMichael Jamin:Know. To me, one of the hardest parts of acting, aside from the acting part is the fact that you really don't, don't have agency over your, you have to wait often. You have to wait. So what do you do in that time?Paula Marshall:Well, you find hobbies. I learned very early on to save money. You live under your means. So even if you get a gig and you're the lead in a show, you're making a lot of money per week. And like me, most of the shows, they did not go more than a season. So you have to take that and live under your means, and you can't spend money and buy fancy things. I invested my money in my house, I think maybe three or four houses now. I try to invest my money and I fill my days with other things.Michael Jamin:Do you stress about it at all or no?Paula Marshall:Yeah. Yeah. I think in the beginning, early on I was very busy all the time. There wasn't a lull. And when you do have a job on, if you're a series regular on a show, you love your weekends, you love your time off. If you're working crazy hours sitcom's, not crazy hours, you know that those areMichael Jamin:Great for writers.Paula Marshall:I mean, yes, that's true, but if you're a director, Jimmy Burroughs would be like, I got a tea time at three 30. We got to get out of here. It's a dream. And maybe that's why I love the sitcom so much, because you got to to act and have a real life. When I had my daughter, I remember going, how would I be a mom and work on a single camera show? I would never see the kid. So when I was pregnant or when I read for Out of practice, I had just had my daughter a week before I went in to test for the show over at CBS. There was a script on my doorstep when I brought her up on the baby thing. And I'm like, I'm a mom and oh, right, I'm an actress and I'm 20 pounds overweight. And oh, I thought I was going to push the, I'm not going to work for a year button.That was the plan. Then I saw the script and I read it and I'm like, oh man, it's a sitcom. I'm not going to work very many hours. I'm going to work three weeks on one week off. I'm like, maybe I'll just do it. Maybe I'll just read for it and we'll see. And I really liked it. I really liked the character. And then when I got it, I was like, oh shit, I don't even have a nanny. How do I do this? So Danny went with me tape night. He was my nanny. I remember them going home because the baby, they were cool. Once we got picked up, they allowed me to have a little trailer outside for my nanny, Mariella and Maya, and I was breastfeeding at the time. She was just born. And it allowed me to do that. And I remember Henry, Henry Winkler still was like, how's Maya? And it was just a great thing. I had my baby. You couldn't ask for a better job for a mom. I was living my dream and I was having a baby when I was 40 years old.Sitcom is the greatest thing in the world, and I'm still trying to get back on one. There's just not that many of them now. It's really sad. Multicam, I've written like three of them. Speaking of writing. Yeah, go on. The writer. So I remember, I think it was when the pilot that I did with John Corbett, when I cried 17 takes in a row, when that didn't get picked up, I remember I was dropping off my daughter at elementary school and Dave Grohl, yes, that Dave Grohl sees me. And I had just found out that the pilot wasn't picked up. It's called Murder in the First, no, sorry, different thing called something different. That was another show that I did. But anyway, so Dave Girl's like Paula Marshall, what's up? You look sad. And I'm like, oh, another pilot wasn't picked up. It just sucks.And he goes, Paula, when either his studio or something, they didn't like the music or whatever, and he goes, you know what? I did put his arm around me. We're walking down that hallway. And he goes, I just did it myself. I got this set up and I just did it myself. And he goes, you should do it yourself. Why don't you write something? And I'm like, yeah, why don't I? And I'm like, well, because one, I'm not a writer, but he goes, who cares? So because of Dave Grohl, that opened the door to getting ideas out, writing something for me. One thing actually, I mean it went kind of far an idea went very far that I ended up producing with Paul Riser and Betsy Thomas wrote it. This was a little bit before, but it's an outlet for me. I'm still not great at Final Draft. I'm still like, oh, how do I get the thing and the thing and the page? I can't even figure it out half the time. So I've written a few sitcoms, mostly from my point of view, because I want the job, because I wantMichael Jamin:To. So you wrote a single camera sitcom and then you showed it to Paul, and thenPaula Marshall:What happened? The Paul and Betsy one, I met Paul's, I believe his name was Alex, but I can't really remember. I met this guy at a wedding and he was like, oh, you're really funny and blah, blah, blah. I'm a big fan. I'm like, oh, that's nice. Thank you very much. And he goes, do you have any ideas? Do you write? And I go, no, I don't write. I go, I have this idea for a show. And he goes, really? Why don't you come pitch it to me? And my partner? I'm like, great. Okay. He goes, Hollywood. I'm like, who's your partner? He goes, who's your partner? And he goes, Paul Riser. I'm like, what? Okay. So I literally got his number and I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to go meet with Paul Riser. I go meet with Paul Riser. I give him my pitch.He really liked it. And he goes, I like it. I think let's do it. Let's work together. I was like, you couldn't have given me anything that would've made me happier than the fact that Paul Riser liked an idea of mine. It's almost like when I made Diane Keaton laugh in an audition. I literally called my agents and I was like, I'm good. I could die now. So the Paul Riser thing, it was just my idea. I had a lot of say. So I got to produce, I got to make a lot of decisions. It was probably one of theMichael Jamin:Greatest. So you shot it then.Paula Marshall:So we shot it and it wasn't picked up, butMichael Jamin:You sold it to a studio.Paula Marshall:All of them wanted it. This is great. Everyone but Fox, wow.Michael Jamin:Wanted it. That's amazing.Paula Marshall:It was crazy. But you have Paul Riser, I matter your stuff, but when you have someone like a Paul Riser or someone who is respected in Hollywood and has produced before, of course people are going to give them a shot,Michael Jamin:But not necessarily. I mean, they must've really liked it. So you wrote it and you started it?Paula Marshall:I started in it. It was my idea, but I did not write it. Later on, I ended up writing things and pitching, and a lot of people like my stuff, but I really mean should go out a little more aggressively than I do. But I have one right now that we're kind of sending around me and my buddy Jeff Melnick, that he really likes this story. And it was, I won't tell you what it is,Michael Jamin:But that's not nothing. I mean, that's a big achievement, honestly,Paula Marshall:For me. Yeah, I don't write. I still am a terrible speller. I have a reading disorder. I've got this thing where reading is hard for me because the font and the text is very contrasty, so I'm a terrible speller. Thank God for spell check, because otherwise,Michael Jamin:Well, so you're working on another piece for yourself as well then? Yes. I'm impressed.Paula Marshall:I have about three scripts that I've worked on here and there, and I remember I thought, oh, well, this is when I'm going to kill it. I'm going to knock these things out. I'm What happened with Covid? We were so scared. And my daughter was home going to now, whatever, ninth grade or 10th grade. And so it became, that whole time became about helping her find joy. I always said, every day, I'm going to help her get through this. And I really pushed all my stuff back. Any good mom does let everyone eat before you eat. Maybe the way I grew up. So I took care of her and all of that stuff before I focused on me. And then she went to college this year, and you would still think I'm like, Paula, I got to finish these things, which I did. I'm back. I'm back doing it, and I like it. I really like it. There's something about the story, but no one ever taught me to write. So I'm writing from my experience, the years of reading sitcom scripts, IMichael Jamin:HavePaula Marshall:'em in my closet. I have almost every single script, especially the ones that I loved, and I go back to it and I refer back. I'm like, how did they do this? Even setting it up, I'll go back and sneak a peek.Michael Jamin:That's really smart. Was it hard for you when she left the house?Paula Marshall:Jesus. Oh, here's the thing.Michael Jamin:Yeah, make up touching upPaula Marshall:Makeup breakMichael Jamin:Last looks.Paula Marshall:I mean, because she's not in Boston,She's down the road. It feels like if something bad happened, I could be there. I don't have to get on a plane and only one direct flight. There's one school in Connecticut that she got into, and it was a great school, and there's one direct flight at 6:00 AM I'm like, this is never going to happen. And she chose, I was like, whatever you want, wherever you want to go to college, it's your decision. I mean, I'll tell you what I, but it's all up to you. And she chose and it was something that's not too far away. And it's great. I get to see her and it's worked out. It's a win.Michael Jamin:What about the emptiness of the house? I'm going to make you cry now. That's what I feel like. The house is so empty. YouPaula Marshall:Know what? And I think though, Michael, I think if she was in anywhere else, I think if I couldn't get to her, and that's a weird thing as a mom, it's about protecting your child. But yeah, I could cry when I think about certain things. Thanks, Michael. It's about protecting them. And I think that the distance, because we are close, she's still in. She's still here. I don't like cooking dinner as much. I'm sorry, Danny, because I don't really have to. The big change is just her presence, her energy, the thought about, well, what's Maya doing? Or what does she got to do? Now it's not, and one of my scripts is, well, I'll tell you one of my scripts is about what happens when your kid goes away to college? What happens to a woman?Michael Jamin:And go ahead. Can you tell me a little bit?Paula Marshall:So it started a while ago, just like my fear of who am I? What do I do? I mean, yes, I'm an actress, but then I pulled from that and I'm like, well, if I'm not an actress and I don't have a job and everything has been bombed, there's so many places to go. Okay, you've just got to, it's like reinventing yourself, which almost every mom that I know who doesn't have a job, it's very true. I was so fortunate that I could have my cake, my baby, and also work. But a lot of parents, they go to jobs and then they come home and or they don't work at all. And then it's just mom, 100%. And they're probably exhausted and happy. Some of my friends, I feel like they're like, oh, I'm so glad. Finally I get to whatever. And either they're retiring and they get to go travel, and I'm like, no, I'm an actor. I'm looking for a gig, whatever. I don't think actors ever truly retire. I think we don't do.Michael Jamin:I guess it depends on how much you love it and how much it must come on. It's got a wear on you. The downs have to be, I don't know.Paula Marshall:Well, I think probably just like a writer,You have to be able to fill your day when you're not going to be working and making money again. It's why it's smart to save your money and invest it and not buy that fricking mansion. If you got that check. Remember one time I went to the bank and I was depositing, it was before they had the picture phone deposits, a really big check. And it was the biggest check I think I've ever gotten. The first time I got that kind of money on a show and the teller, and again, I looked very young, the teller who didn't look much older than me and took the check,And he looked at the check and he looked at me and he goes, what do you do? What do you do? And I laughed. I go, I'm an actor. I go, but trust me, this thing, this isn't forever. I know it's not forever. So I have to live my life. It's not forever. Because my goal is I never want to lose my house. I always want to be able to afford things. You hear these horror stories about these, you think you got it, and then it shows canceled, and then you can't do that. I've always been kind of smart when it comes to money, but it's hard. It's really hard. WeMichael Jamin:Spoke a little about this because your daughter's interested in acting and you were, this is before we started taping, and what's your advice for her?Paula Marshall:My advice is find a way to tap in and find the truth in anything. And if you can't, then again, you substitute. If it's not connecting, you got to figure out a way to connect to it. It's about being truthful In imaginary circumstances, it's really hard to walk into a room and pretend the thing and crying. You just really have to practice going there. I remember one time, and even in my life, life situations, I will take note of them. One time I was in San Francisco drunker than I've ever been before for whatever reason. And I remember the hotel I was, I think it was during Nash Bridges, and I was like, oh, I'm so wasted. I want to remember what I look like when I'm this wasted. So I, my, I guess I did have a cell phone then. So I took my cell phone or my camera, no cell phone, and I recorded myself being drunk.And it's like that one actor, he would always, Michael, he's an English guy, Michael, I forget his name. He would be like, you can't overdo the acting, but you're trying not to be drunk. Yes. To try to make sure that the words are coming out. And so that's what I did. I literally was like, this is me talking at my, it was the craziest thing. So in life, take advantage again, back to the advice to my daughter. Live these experiences and remember them. And if you cry, if you're sensitive and emotional, fucking use it. There's plenty of people who can't cry at the drop of a hat. I can cry. You give me something to people always know Paula can cry in a scene and even if I don't connect to it again, I substitute and I find a way. I'm an emotional person and the thing I think I have trouble doing is the angry part.I'm not great at being super angry. I don't think I play a lot of those roles like I was doing, I've worked with Steven Weber on his new Chicago Med. I was going to say new show, it is like year nine, but I play his ex-wife. I think it's airing tomorrow as a matter of fact. And there was a scene where I had to come in and I'm yelling at him and I'm like, God, this is so not me. I'm not a yeller. I don't yell even in the middle of a fight. If I'm fighting, I try to get it out and then I cry because I get frustrated because I can't say, I'm not one of those bitchy women wives who are like, I'm just not. Anyway, back to the advice from my daughter, you take life's experiences and you put a little marker on them and you remember them.So when you need them, and I didn't even think I was going to have any children because I started so late and as the actress in me, I just never thought, I dunno, mom and my mom material. I don't know. I was like, you know what? I could really learn a lot as an actress by tapping into that love. I remember you'd see my friends who had kids way, way early and I'm like, God, they love these things. What did that feel like? I never knew what that was and so I took that experience and without it, I don't think I would truly ever be able to play a mom as genuinely as I am. Love because man, I love my kid and I didn't think I'd be like a great mom. I am the best mom I am and I love her and I love being a mom and all of it. So I tell my daughter to practice. Practice, learn your lines very easy and don't go in if you're not prepared. That's kind of a big one. You're not really,Michael Jamin:Just because you said mom was there, that fear the first time you decided to play mom, they say once you play mom like, oh, now she's a mom.Paula Marshall:Well, it's just an age thing, so that was never a thing for me. I'm going to play whatever I look like for sure. So I don't care. I don't care about that at all.Michael Jamin:Interesting. Paula, this has been such a great conversation, so thank you so much. You'rePaula Marshall:Welcome. I had so much fun talking with you.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean, I just love talking the craft with people like you. You're a pro and you're just, I don't know, so much wisdom to share, so thank you so much. You'rePaula Marshall:Welcome.Michael Jamin:Thank you.Paula Marshall:I'm enjoying your Instagram posts.Michael Jamin:Oh, we'll talk about that, but alright, well thank you. That's it. That's you're released, but don't go anywhere now we are going to talk some more here. Alright everyone, thank you so much. What a great conversation. Paul. Should they follow you somewhere? Did they do anything or just watch you on something? What do they want 'em to do?Paula Marshall:Depends on when you get this.Michael Jamin:Venmo you the most. What do you want? Venmo? MePaula Marshall:Cash is great. I mean, my Instagram is the Paula Marshall. I guess I'm not really great at all that stuff.Michael Jamin:Are you supposed to be though? Do your agents tell you?Paula Marshall:No, agents don't. But if you have so many followers, then it used to be this thing called a TV Q, which is your TV quotes, how many people know who you are? And that's just, social media has kind of taken that over, really. So people, I think people care how many followers you have. I do notMichael Jamin:Again, but Tbq is not a thing anymore, you're saying?Paula Marshall:I don't think it is. Wow. No. I mean maybe they call it something else, but I know an actress friend of mine was early on in the Instagram thing. She's like, yeah, I got to join Instagram. Yuck. I'm like, yeah, the thing. She's like, I was told I have to have it and you got to pitch. I'm not that self-promoting and I'll say things that are inappropriate and crude and get kicked off of Twitter for it, but whatever. That's who I'm,Michael Jamin:Thank you again. Really, it was such an honor to have you on. Alright everyone, more conversations coming. Thank you so much for tuning in. Until next week, keep creating. You're an actor. Tell your friends about this. You're other actor friends. Alright, everyone, thanks so much.Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamon talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most. Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/screenwriters-need-to-hear-this/exclusive-content

I’ve been a television writer for the past 27 years. While I’ve written on some amazing shows, the work that I’m most proud of is my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It’s the funniest, it’s the deepest, and it’s the one that will hit you hardest in the heart. These are the deeply personal, true stories of an awkward, sensitive man searching for the things that are most important: identity, love, forgiveness, and redemption. It's available now for your reading pleasure.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/A Paper Orchestra on Audible - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraA Paper Orchestra on Website - https://michaeljamin.com/bookFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:Yeah, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is because you sold 'em the rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving them any creative input at all when the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase and to support me on this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book now on with the show. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to What the Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about the podcast where we explore art, creativity, and writing. Oh, it's a big announcement today, Phil. Phil's back, big dayPhil Hudson:Back. Happy to be back. Thank you for having me.Michael Jamin:Big day. We're finally building up. This has been a long project. Phil book, my book, A Paper Orchestra Drops or dropped if you're hearing this. It's available, it's, it's alreadyPhil Hudson:Dropped. It's available yesterday, so go get it now.Michael Jamin:It's called a paper orchestra and it's a collection of personal essays. If you're a fan of David Sedaris, I think of it as David Sedaris meets Neil Simon. And this has been my passion project for years. I've been working on this and I'm very excited to put it out in the world. As you can get it on print, you can get it on audiobook, you can get it as ebook, however you consume your books, and you can get it everywhere. You can go get it on michael jamin.com. You can find it on Amazon, on Barnes and Noble or Audible for the audio audiobook. Anywhere, anywhere you get Apple. If you want to get the ebook, it's everywhere, Phil. It's everywhere.Phil Hudson:It's like you got a real publishing deal except you didn't.Michael Jamin:Well, I'm doing it myself,Phil Hudson:And we'll go into that. I want people to understand you chose to self-publish this at this point, but that's not how we started. And we've talked a bit about that when we changed the podcast title and we talked a bit about it. We're talking about your live shows, but I think this is like, let's celebrate Michael Jamin a little bit today because you're always talking to people to build the mountain, to climb. You are now at the top of that mountain, and I imagine you're looking over and saying, oh crap, look, that other peak there I've got to get to now.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I already am. Yeah, for sure. Lot of it. And I hope this inspires a lot of you. There's so many people who are like, I want to sell my screenplay, or I want to help me break in, help me, help me. But there's so much that you can do. So unempowering disempowering, you're basically hoping that someone else is going to make your career, buy my script, make my movie. But there's so much that you can do on your own, and you may think it's more work because you're doing it yourself, but it's actually less work because now you don't have to count on someone else to do it for you. You can stop begging, you can stop worrying about all the rejection because when you're selling your scripts or trying to, you're going to get rejected by 99 out of a hundred people. But if you just build it yourself, there's so much you can do. The year we live in, it's so empowering. Everyone has a phone and you can shoot on your phone, you can make a movie. Everyone has a miniature movie studio. There's so much we all can do and on our own. And so I'm just going to share a little bit about the journey that I've been on when I started writing this book.So basically this started well over four years ago, maybe five years ago. I told my wife that I was just at a point in my life where I felt a little disheartened by, a little bored by what I was writing in television because when I write for tv, and I'm very grateful to have a job and a career, but I'm always writing what someone is paying me to write. And I'm very rarely writing what I want to write. I'm paying what someone pays me to write or what I can sell, but that's not how I started writing when I was in college and in high school. I just wanted to write what I wanted to write. And so I went for a walk with my wife one day and I was like, I have a really bad idea. I'm thinking of writing a collection of personal essays, which is what David Seras writes. And I love his writing. I've read everything. He's written multiple times. You show him your card, you got a card back there, don't you? Oh yeah. Yeah. He actually, I sent him a piece of fan letter, a fan mail three years ago. But I've read him so much. I knew that he would respond. He talks about, I knew he would respond. It just took him three years to respond, but it was very kind of him.So yeah, so I started writing. I wanted to write this project. I wanted to write what I want to write. I wanted to tell stories the way I wanted to tell them without network notes, without a partner, without. I just wanted to see what I can do on my own without having someone telling me what to do or breathing down my back or saying, no, it should be this or that. What can I do? And so I told that to Cynthia and she said, that's a great idea. And I said, but you don't understand even if I sell it, I'm not going to make a lot of money from it and it's going to take me years and years to do. She goes, you got to do it anyway, because if you do, you will find yourself in the process. And I was like, okay.And at the time, I was really in a bad place. I was just very upset about stuff mentally. I was in a bad place. I was like, okay, I'll start writing. And that's what I did. I remember I had listened to a lot of David C's audio books, but I had never read him. So I was like, I better read him. And then I bought a bunch of books and I read the first one. I remember I was lying in bed. I was reading the first book and I'm about halfway through and I'm thinking, where's this guy going? What's he doing here? Where's he going with this? And then I got to the end of the piece and the ending was such a wonderful ending. I was like, oh my God. And I almost threw the book across the room. I was, I was so mad.I was like, this is going to be so much harder than I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to be easy or natural, not easy, but just considering I'm a writer, I didn't think it would be that difficult. So then I just started studying him and I got all his books and I read them multiple times over and over again, and the more I read, I was just trying to look for patterns and trying to learn from him. And that kind of just began, that was the beginning of this journey just to study, study what I wanted to do.Phil Hudson:You're constantly telling people to study their craft, and you talk about story and story structure. You have a course on that. Most of your content you put on social media is dedicated to helping people understand that your webinars are often about resetting people's expectations about what a writing career looks like and helping them focus on what really matters. And the undertone that I've witnessed over the last two, two and a half years of this process with you of at least starting the podcast and helping with social media and that stuff, it's all based under the reality or the realization that creativity is worth doing just to be creative and that there's value in that process beyond monetary pay or paychecks.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah, for sure. When I first started writing these stories, the first two, first several were not very good. I was writing in David Sari's voice because I didn't know how else to do it. The ironic thing, as a TV writer, I'm always writing in someone else's voice. I'm writing in the character's voice or the voice of the show, but this is my voice, and this is the first time I actually had to do that. And so because I'm a good mimic and because I had just read so much of him, I was kind of writing, I was kind of the writer like him, and I thought the first two stories were good. And then I set it down for a couple of weeks and I read it with fresh eyes and I thought, oh, this is terrible. It felt like a cheap knockoff. It felt like me pretending I was him and I hated it.I threw all those stories out and then I had to figure out, okay, what's my voice? And that was a long discovery. But the reason why, this is a long way of saying this, those first several stories I wrote, I don't know, maybe six or seven stories, and it just take months and months. At one point, I reach out to my agent. I'm at a very big prestigious Hollywood agency. They do. They represent me in film and tv, and I reached out to my agent. I told him what I was working on. I said, Hey, do we have a book agency, a book department? He said, of course we do. What do I know? I tell him what I was doing. I said, can you hook me up with one of your agents? He goes, sure. So I reach out to their agents. This guy's in New York now, he doesn't have to take, just so people know, I told 'em what I was doing. He doesn't have to take me on as a client, but he has to take the call.I'm banging them. They got to take the call. He doesn't have to bring me on to represent him in books though. And so I told him what I was doing. He goes, oh, that sounds interesting. Send me what you have. I go, well, I only have a handful of stories, but I'll send you what I have. So I emailed them to him. I never heard back. I didn't hear back for probably six months at this point. And I'm still writing more stories. It doesn't matter, whatever. I'm thinking maybe he read it, he didn't read it, he doesn't like it, whatever. I'm not going to stop writing them though. And I just kept on writing all these stories. Finally, six months later, he reaches out to me. He goes, I'm so sorry it took me so long to read these. I love them. Let's get on the phone and talk about them.I was like, sure. He goes, and he was like, when we spoke, he said, he said, do you have any more? Because he only read whatever. I sent him maybe six stories, and I go, as a matter of fact, yeah, I'm almost done with the collection. Give me another couple of weeks and I'll send you the entire collection. So at that point, but again, I'm writing it because I want to write it. I want to do this. I'm not thinking about how much money I'm going to make. I'm thinking about the process of writing and figuring out how to learn. I had to relearn how to write because I'm a TV writer who now is writing books. There's a little difference. There's some difference to it.Phil Hudson:Yeah. A couple things here. I love the narrative, and I don't want to interrupt the narrative, but I think there's some topics that are coming up here. Is it okay if we just dive into those for a second? Yeah, please. Okay. You talked about David Sedaris and you were reading this and you're like, where is this going? And then it ended in this way. That was almost upsetting because it was so beautiful and so well done. What I'm hearing you say is something you talk about regularly on the podcast and in your social media content, which is the way you unpack your story is the job of being a writer. And that's almost effectively what I'm hearing is that's your craft and your tone and your style. You still have to understand story structure and you understand these things. But the unpacking, would you say that that's an example of what you're talking about when you say how you unpack something matters?Michael Jamin:Yes, and the thing is, I've really tried to study him. I think he's the gold standard. I think he's a master, a beautiful writer. There's certain things I was able to learn and certain things I was not able to unpack. And so I learned a lot from him for sure. But some things still remain a mystery to me from how he writes. I can't see through it, and I'm good at seeing through some stuff. So take that for what it's worth. I do remember thinking, I had long conversations with my wife when we were about this. I didn't want people to think that the book was written by a sitcom writer. I wanted it to be funny and dramatic, but I didn't want people to say, oh, this guy's, I wanted it to be a little smarter than just a sitcom, I guess. And so I was very self-conscious about that.And we had long conversations of Is this art? How do I make art? What is art? How do I do this? So it feels like art and what I really came, it was a really eye-opening moment for me, and it came from much of what I learned about how to do this. I learned not from writers, David is probably the only writer who I really studied a lot for this book, but I learned a lot from watching interviews with musicians, ironically, about how they approached their art. And I found that to be more helpful than listening to other writers. And one of the really interesting things, I was like, well, we know there's a market for what David Sedera says. We know people like what he does, so why am I trying to reinvent things? Why not just kind of do what he's doing? And there's two reasons why not.One, I'm not him. I can't be him ever. And that's almost the tragedy of the whole thing is I want to write, this guy can write, but I never ever will. So you're going to have to let go of that, which is almost tragic. But the other thing is, it's my responsibility not to, as an artist, if you want to make art, then add, you have to bring new to the equation. You have to bring new, and that actually, I picked up, I believe I picked up from an interview with watching Pharrell talk about music.Phil Hudson:That's awesome.Michael Jamin:Which is basically he's saying, listen, your job is to bring something new to the conversation, is to put the youness into it. Whatever is you, that's what you have to put into it. And that was very reassuring to hear it from him. I was like, oh, okay, now I can lean into me.Phil Hudson:This resonates with me. And what I wrote down here is that you can look outside of your space for inspiration. And I think this again ties to the fact that creativity is self, it's for the self. Rick Rubin, the producer, you're familiar with him. I think most people are at this point. I was just watched a clip of him in an interview and he said, I have never made music for a fan. When you do, it's bad when I make it for myself or when I do it because it's something that I like that resonates with the listener. And would you say that's what you're doing here is you're writing this for you in your tone because it's the best pure expression of your art?Michael Jamin:Well, yes, yes and no. Some of it, it's very truthful. It's very painfully truthful. It's very intimate. I go there. I think that's what makes it interesting. I think that's my job as a writer. It's my obligation as a writer is to figure out what the truth is and figure out how to tell it. But I also keep the audience in mind, and maybe that's just because of my background as a team writer.Phil Hudson:Yeah, you're an entertainer to a degree because that's what you do, is you want people to tune in for 23, 25 minutes per week, have a good time, forget their worries, and then leave having gotten something from what you've done. Well,Michael Jamin:It's also,Phil Hudson:But I don't know, that negates what Rick Rubin's talking about because it's like when you read, when you're putting out here, do you feel like you are getting the same value out of it that you would hope a reader would, or are you hoping the reader gets more value out of it than what you're getting out of it?Michael Jamin:Well, I don't know. I mean, first I keep them in mind. I picture my reader with a remote control in their hand. That's just become from me, a TV writer. So how do I make sure this story is compelling so that they want to turn the page? But I do keep them in mind in terms of how do I make this story not about me, but about all of us. And I think that's important because this has the danger of becoming very self-indulgent. These are true stories from my life, but I tell them in a way with art, so that you really feel like you're reading a character in a book. I am a character. The character of Michael is in this story, so it's not like, and then this happened, then this happened. I'm not telling you how I broke into Hollywood, although there are stories about that. I'm really telling you about the stories. These are stories of rejection. These are stories of triumph. There are stories there meant to be, the details are mine, but the stories are all of ours. So that's how I feel I'm telling them is like, okay, so that you can totally relate to this so you can feel, okay, I had something very similar and me explaining it to you helps you understand it, hopefully.Phil Hudson:And not to jump ahead, I saw you last year for my birthday, do a performance. My wife and I came out and there's a story, was it, is that what it's called?Michael Jamin:The Goul? Yeah, thePhil Hudson:Goul. Still a year later, 13 months later, still thinking about that goul because as a new father and then hearing your perspective as a father with children leaving the home, yeah, there's a lot of beauty and regret in that story that is paralleling the decisions I'm making now with my children who are young and what I want my life and my relationship to be like with them. So yeah, I think you absolutely check that box. You said, I've heard you say before, you want people to leave and sit there and think about it, have been impacted by what's happening. And I can tell you that that's been very true for me.Michael Jamin:That's been my, because, so Phil came to, I performed this, and if you want to see me perform, you can go to In Your Town if I travel with it, michael jamin.com/upcoming. But that's one of the stories. That's actually one of the stories I gave out to reviewers to review the book and people, they like that story. But yeah, my goal when I write any story, and hopefully I achieve this, is people say, I couldn't put it down. That seems to be the nicest thing you could say about a book. I couldn't put it down. I want you to put the book down. I want you to get to a chapter and just be so moved at the end of it that you're not ready to move forward. You just want to sit in that emotion for however long it takes you, whatever it is, just sit in it.I don't want you to, it's not meant to be consumed that way. And one of the things that I tried to achieve, I made, we did an audio book and I hired whatever. I partnered with Anthony Rizzo, who's the composer I worked with on Marin. He's a really talented writer composer. And so for the audio book, I would send him each chapter. And then I said to him, he's like, what do you want? I go, no, no, no. I want you to read this piece, interpret it. Tell me what it sounds like to you in music. What's your version of, he's an artist. What does this sound like to you in music? And that's what he came back with. And so at the end in the audiobook, if you prefer to consume it that way, at the end of the story, we go right into the music and it forces you, or not forces you, but allows you to sit in it. It allows you to sit in whatever motion it is. The music carries you out for 30 seconds or however long it is, just so now you can experience it in music, which I love that I just love. I thought he brought so much to the audiobook. I'm so grateful he hopped on board.Phil Hudson:I normally listen to audiobooks at 1.5 to 1.75 speed, and then the music kind of throws that off. This is one I would absolutely listen to in real time. JustMichael Jamin:Slow it down. Yeah, down,Phil Hudson:Slow it down and just sit in it and give yourself the treat and the opportunity to sit in that. I think very often we are constantly looking for the next thing or to get ahead or checking off stuff on our list. And that's not what this book is. This book is a sit in it, allow yourself to feel it. Think about how you can apply it. There's just some beautiful life lessons in here as well.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I hope so. That was my goal.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I think it's achieved. And I've talked to several people in your advanced reader group who feel the same way.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:And you've got fans in there, but these are people who are very sincere with their compliments as well. And there's some great compliments coming your way from that advanced group.Michael Jamin:And so thank you. Honestly, I like to do more of this kind of writing, and this is, to me is very fulfilling at this stage of my career. To me, it's more exciting doing this than writing a TV show that might be seen by millions of people writing something that can make someone just make you laugh, but then feel something. It's funny, I have sort of a recipe and I'm wondering, people can see through it at some point, but I don't really care. My recipe is if I can get you to laugh in the beginning, I just want you to open up. Let's just start laughing about stuff and it start, most of my stories start out very fun and light, and then you kind of relax into, oh, this is going to be fun. And you let your guard down, and as soon as your guard comes down, then I hit you as really hard, as hard as I can with something emotional where I talk about, and because you're in my writing course, you'll know where this happens, where this happens structurally. And then at that point, once I hit him in the heart, there's no point in being funny anymore. The humor has already achieved its goal, which is to you to get your guard down. And soPhil Hudson:Engaged, paying attention, it's something, some advice, I know it's standard advice, but it advice used specifically gave me a long time ago, which is it's easy to kill people. It's hard to make them laugh, and so you're almost checking the box on the humor part, so they're completely engaged and engrossed in what's going on, which is why the emotional impact of the reality of this story hits so hard later. Yeah,Michael Jamin:There were times I thought maybe I'm being too funny here in the beginning, I'm not even sure, but because I didn't want any of this to feel silly, I just wanted it to be fun until, but yeah, tonally, there's, I guess some stories are a little lighter than others for sure.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's good stuff. Going back to what you're telling though, in this narrative of how we got to where you are, you said that you reached out to your agent who got you in touch with the literary agent effectively for books and publishing, and a lot of people, myself included, might be tempted to submit to the agent and then wait and do nothing. And you made a point of saying you continued to write. And the question when he came back is, do you have more? So a lot of people, I think the mistake is that they're putting all their eggs in the basket. And we see this all the time with the questions on the webinars for the podcast, for your live q and as, when you do them on social media, whatever it is, how do I get an agent? How do I get a representative? How do I get a showrunner attached? How do I do this? And it's like you say you're putting all the power in the hands of somebody else and you're saying that's the wrong thing to do. And because you didn't, because you're writing for yourself to do the job, and you didn't wait for one person to make your career, you were even more successfulMichael Jamin:In getting, and he doesn't care. I mean, he's a good guy and everything, but he doesn't care if I achieve this. What does he care? All he wants is, is he going to make money from this? And that's fair enough. He has to make money, so my dream is my dream. I have to make my dream happen. And so yes, then turned it into him. We sent it out, and then the feedback I got was, Hey, this is really great, but platform drives acquisition. I said, well, what does that mean? It means you need to have a social media following. I said, really? It's not good enough that it's well written. No, not anymore. Maybe 30 years ago. But today the industry publishing has changed as much as Hollywood has changed, it's really can they sell it? And now it's sold on social media. You're expected to have that.And I was a little upset about that. I was like, why can't it just be good enough? Everyone loved it, but platform drives acquisition. I said, all right, well, how big of a social media following do I need? This is two and a half years ago. And I couldn't get a straight answer that no one really knew, but especially in the space of They had a good point, Phil. They really did. It's not like this is not a novel. These are personal essays. But like I said, they're told story-wise, not if you didn't know me. You'd be like, oh, this is a nice story. But it just so happens that it's true. But the point that they made was, or maybe I made it with myself. I think that's what it was. I was like, if you were to go to Barnes and Noble and my book was on the shelf, why would someone buy it if they don't know who I am?Because there's true stories. Who cares if you don't know who I am? And that's a fair thing to ask. Why would someone pick it off the shelf? Now, here's the thing, as I was arguing with myself, but here's the thing. No one goes to Barnes and Nobles anymore. That's not where people get books. I mean, they exist, but most people just get it online. Most of the books are sold online. So why do I need to be in Barnes and no, I don't. I need, I mean, I can be, but it's not necessary. And so I was like, okay. And then I was like, well, if I build the platform, if I get a big following and people want to support me and buy the book curious and they like what I have to say and they think I'm talented, great. But then why do I need a publisher?What do they bring to the equation, honestly? Oh, they can get your book in barge. Oh, well, great, but no one goes there anymore. So what exactly did they do? And by the way, they get most of the money. I'm like, okay, well, they help you design the book cover, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is. You sold 'em the Rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving any creative input at all? When the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? I remember at one point, because I had talked to other people in the publishing world and they thought your title could be better. It's called the Paper Orchestra. I was like, yeah, but I think I like the title, but no one really knows what it means. And I'm like, yeah, you got a good point. No one knows what it means untilPhil Hudson:I remember this conversation,Michael Jamin:And then it was ironically, I had a long talk with my daughter. It was on my birthday, and we went for a long walk, and she's so smart, and she says, well, why are she said to me, I thought the whole point of the book was for you to just write what you wanted to write without anyone giving you No. I said, yeah. She goes, well, why are you changing the title? I said, yeah, why am I changing the title? Why am I second guessing myself? So I did it my way. I did a hundred percent my way, and this is my book.This is my expression without having anyone telling me it's wrong, it's different. It should be this or that. Along the way. I got to say, Phil, it's so frustrating for, it's so frustrating to hear this kind of stuff, I think, but it's like I understand what people want. I want this. I want a complete creative expression. And to me, that's the satisfaction. Whether I sell a hundred copies or one copy or a million copies, it's the process that I got so much joy out of. And I think that's what people will enjoy. I mean, it's like I had so many agents, even afterwards, they find me on social media, they reach out to me, go, and I tell 'em what my book is, and they go, oh, that sounds nice, but if you write a young adult novel, I can sell that for you. Or if you write a how to book, we can sell that. I'm like, if I don't want to write those, this is what I want to write. This is exactly what I wanted to write. You got to do it yourself.Phil Hudson:That's right. And that's what you tell people. You got to basically make your mountain, create your mountain, and then climb your mountain.Michael Jamin:And all of it's doable. It's just going to take a long time, but it's going to take less time to build your mountain and climb it than it's for you to beg someone to make your life.Phil Hudson:And begging someone to make your life means you owe them and they have power over you.Michael Jamin:And it's also, but you're going to hear no so many times you're going to get so much rejection. Who needs it? Why not just put all that creative energy into what you want to achieve instead of why are you wasting your energy hitting people up on LinkedIn? What's the point of that?Phil Hudson:This is something in business I'm bad about because we've talked about it before. I own a digital marketing agency. That was my career path before I moved to LA, and I still operate that agency, and we do nothing on LinkedIn. And I was like, well, you got to be on LinkedIn. That's where the businesses are. And I was like, I get that Our business is almost purely word of mouth, and it's because I'm not out shaking my can, asking people to put money in it. We stand on the value of the work that we do, and then that's referral work that goes out to other people. And that's not the way to grow to a business that's going to end up on the New York Stock Exchange or end up something you can trade. But what it is, it's a lifestyle business that creates a way for me to do what you're doing, which is to make my art, to be creative, to live my life the way I want without having to be beholden to somebody else dictating what I do with my time and my hours. And what I'm hearing you say is it's effectively the same thing for your book is had you gone with an agent who sold your book to a big publisher, you would now be mandated to do things in a certain way and you would've lost all of the same creative control. And it almost sounds like it would spoil the whole experience for you.Michael Jamin:It's hard to say. I mean, in the beginning, that's how I thought I had to do it. And then I realized I didn't have to who it could have been a great experience. I don't know. I mean, we'll never know, but I also know it's not necessary even a little bit, not in today's world. And if I do another book, maybe I will use a publisher, maybe not. I don't know. But the point is, if I do, they're going to pay me for it. You know what I'm saying? This first one's on me. I have to prove myself. Sure. If they want in on Michael Jamin, they're going to have to pay me or else, because now the power has shifted.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I can't remember if we've ever talked about this, but this came up in conversation this week's Kevin Hart, where he worked, traveling, doing standup comedy, getting names, getting emails after shows, building a fan base. And then when he got his first big deal, they were like, all right, and then we'll need you to send this out to your email list. And he said, it's a million dollars. And they said, what? He says, you didn't work to build that list. You don't get my people and mine. I put in the blood, sweat and tears on this. You did not. You're going to pay me for that blood, sweat and tears.Michael Jamin:And what happened?Phil Hudson:They paid him everyMichael Jamin:Time they paid him. Yeah. Pay the man and a lot of this, and you've helped out as well with enormously, just in terms of the podcast and help me with marketing and all that stuff and the website. Yeah, but it's still one of these things. Build it first. This is the order in which you need to do things when you make it first and then people will join in. People will want a piece of that. They either want to help you or they'll want part of your success or whatever. It's not the other way around. It's not, Hey, help me make my dream. No one wants to help you make your dream. No one cares about your dream. You build it first and then they'll come out of the woodwork and decide whether they want a piece of you or not, because they can make some money off of it.But it's so much more empowering when you look at it that way. It's like, Hey, I have something to offer here. I have something great. I'm not even offering it. I have something great here. Do you want a piece of it or not? And the answer, they know, okay, that's fine. I will do it without you. But it's the other, you know what I'm saying? It's not like, Hey, help me make it out. Hey, help me. Then you're begging. It's the other way around. I have something great and I'm going there. I'm doing it with or without you. Up to you, you can decidePhil Hudson:It's field of dreams, right? If you build it, they will come. Yeah.Michael Jamin:You got to build it first though.Phil Hudson:You got to build it first. You have to do the crazy thing. You have the lofty idea. You got to go make the baseball field in the middle of your corn field in Nebraska orMichael Jamin:Wherever. And people say, though, I don't know how to do that. But if you are a creative person and you want to get into a creative field, writing or screenwriting, whatever, be creative, prove how creative you are, you'll figure it out.Phil Hudson:Figure it out. Yeah, go cut your teeth. I think it's this metaphor for life though, which is we have to do things that are difficult and hard and things that we don't enjoy because that's how we learn and grow and get better. And redefining failure I think was a big deal for me because failure was something I just tried to avoid at all costs, to the point that I would do nothing if I thought I wasn't going to be 100% successful. So imagine doing that, trying to be a writer when writing is rewriting, you're not going to be okay the first 10, 15 drafts or whatever. Oh, god. And so if you have this fear of failure and what is failure? So redefining what these things means is very important. And when you start looking at failure, a lot of very smart people have said that failure is just the fastest way to get to success. You just have to fail as fast as possible so that you can achieve your goal. And it's just learning what not to do. And so many quotes about that.Michael Jamin:That's one of the things. Another thing that I picked up from another musician, David Bowie, as I was trying to figure out what art is, and he said something very similar. He said, art is basically is taking something from within yourself and figuring out a way how to express it so that you can help understand yourself and the world around you. And he goes, but to make something really great, you have to swim in water. That's just a little too deep to stand in. And that's when something great can happen. When you're in a little over your head, that's when the art is made. And it's the same thing what you're saying. It's like you got to do things that are out of your comfort zone, and that's how you achieve things.Phil Hudson:Yeah. So social media, being a public persona, subjecting yourself to just some of the most crazy things you've told me people say to you and your comments and your dms and just horrible things. HorribleMichael Jamin:Internet is horrible. I don't get a ton of hate, but I do get hate. But that's a double-edged sword of doing this. But also then it was also, okay, I put myself on social media as a screenwriter, as a TV writer, and here I'm sharing my expertise working in the business for 27 years, but I also have show you that I have to show you that I'm actually good at what I do, so that I try to make my posts funny. Or sometimes I just do a post. It's all funny so that you feel like, okay, maybe this guy can write as opposed to just me saying, I can write, showing you that I can write. So there's that kind of bridge I have to cross.Phil Hudson:Yeah. The exercise of putting yourself out there though is just something you were hesitant to for years and years and years. I think since I met you, I've been telling you, you need to be on social media. You need to grow a social media following, and it was just not your thing. And what I appreciate about your story with this book is you care so much about this book and doing this thing for yourself that you're willing to do the uncomfortable, which is be public facing person who is willing to put yourself out there almost every single day for two and a half years despite what anybody says, because that is what is required for you to make sure that you are able to have the maximum impact as you can with this thing that's so important to you. And that is something most people aren't willing to do.Michael Jamin:You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamon talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, a Collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book. Go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book.Go to michael jamin.com/book, and now back to our show. I mean, I have people who go on social and things. I go on social media. There's a lot of influencers that I follow or whatever, usually experts in their field, but many of them, or most of them don't use their real name. They don't because they want that anonymity, and I don't blame them, but I can't do that. If I'm talking about my book, you got to know what my name is. And so I end everything is Michael Jamon writer. That's scary to put your real name out there. And so there's that as well.Phil Hudson:This is scary in a real way too. I'm aware of at least two police reports we've had to file for people who've been insane.Michael Jamin:Yeah, there's some insane people out there, but really insane and nothing too dangerous. I had to report,Phil Hudson:But its hateMichael Jamin:Speech. You still have to reportPhil Hudson:It. It speech, it's hate speech. It's threatening. It's angry language, and the things that you're talking about are wild. They're not invoking it. One of the compliments I think you get for people is how you respond to criticism. It's like you could destroy people because you have that capacity.Michael Jamin:I could do that with my words. You'rePhil Hudson:The definition of a good man, and the fact that you are dangerous with your words and you choose not to use it,Michael Jamin:I would believe me, I would tear them apart and make them look silly, but it doesn't help me any. It doesn't actually help me. So I just, I'm getting there rolling in the dirt with them, and then we both get dirty. So for the most part, I just ignore, but I also talk to other creators how they handle the same thing. It's this new internet fame. It's a strange territory.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Well, we were just talking earlier today about how you went. Did you go into a Kinko's or something to PrinceMichael Jamin:And stuff? Yeah, I went to a Kinko's. I got spotted in the wild.Phil Hudson:Yeah, somebody knew who you were and it was more common. Shout out Chris. Chris on the podcast, but it's like the first time, I remember the first time that really happened to you. I remember you told me You'll never believe what happened. I was out in this place and somebody shotted Michael Jamon Ry from their car. It's just a weird thing.Michael Jamin:It's just odd. Yeah.Phil Hudson:I've had a taste of that through association, and I've talked about it on the podcast as well, where we went to our wrap party for Tacoma FD season four, and one of the assistant editors comes up and he goes, dude, I got to tell you, my wife works in the industry and she's an accountant, and she brought over her accountant friend, and they were like, oh, what Jody do you work on? And he was like, I work on Tacoma Dean. And she's like, oh, I listen to Phil Hudson's podcast.Michael Jamin:Oh,Phil Hudson:Wow. And he's like, I didn't even know you had a podcast. I was like, ah. It's a strange feeling. And then later that night, one of our accountants, it must be accountants who listened to our podcast, they brought someone over to the party's like, yeah, listen to your podcast. I was like, it feels weird. And I'm not even Michael Jammin. I'm just a guy who's on there.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's strange to put yourself out there like that, but you're doing it,Phil Hudson:But you're doing it.Michael Jamin:I'm doing it, but I also, yeah. And also, listen, if you want to know more about me, then you'll definitely read the book. The book is very vulnerable, but it's still weird. I don't know. I felt like, well, David Sedaris can do it. I can do it. But I also, I think that's interesting about, I do think that's interesting about this kind of writing is that as opposed to writing a novel that you're making up and you are making up these characters, I feel like the stakes are higher when you're reading something like my book, because you, oh, this character's real, and he's really going through, it's not like when you're reading a fake a movie or watching a movie or reading a book, a novel and the character dies or whatever gets injured or something. Part of you can still say, okay, it's still made up. It's not real. That's just an actor going through something and the actor's pretending. But when you read this, you go, oh, this is real. This is a real person. This is not made up. And I do feel like it raises the stakes, and in some way, I feel like this is my answer to ai, to what if everyone's worried that AI is going to take writer's jobs? This is my answer to that, which is, AI cannot do this. AI is not capable of telling a story about me. That's real. I have to do that.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Someone just yesterday I saw someone posted that asking AI to write about, to write about something is having them listen to a thousand hours of people talking about pizza and then asking it to make a pizza is just like, it's not going to come out. It's just not going to come out.Michael Jamin:I get a lot of people in my comments and they'll say things when I talk about ai, you clearly don't understand ai, and I want to say, you clearly don't understand writing. That's what you don't understand. Yep.Phil Hudson:It's the human condition. I mean, we've been talking about this forever. That's what Star Trek is, right? It's data figuring out what it means to be human. The thing that comes to mind for me is this, for random clip, I saw probably when it was airing real time in the early nineties, and my dad was watching it and it's data talking about how, oh, boy, time flies. And he couldn't understand the expression, time flies. And so he sat and watched an egg boil over and over and over again. He's like, it takes exactly eight minutes and 32 seconds or egg to boil because he couldn't understand or comprehend it from the machine side. And so it's all about that. Even machines want to be more human. And rioting is exploring the human condition. Yeah,Michael Jamin:That's right. That's right. So if you want to understand yourself and you write, and then to me getting back to the book, that's what this process was figuring out who I am, figuring out who I, and it's so interesting because all these patterns kept on emerging. I got write a story and I'd get halfway through it, and I'm thinking, why would this character, and let's say this story is something that I did when I was 11 or whatever, why would this character do that? Why would I have done that? And a lot of times I just didn't know, why would I do that? It didn't make sense. Then I'd write something, I'd go, no, that doesn't feel true. That feels like the TV version. What's the real version? And then I'd have to think of another memory from that time. And I think, oh, I wonder if those two are related. And now I'm figuring out who I am. And I'm like, oh, that's why I would do that. That makes sense. Which is so interesting to finally be able to understand yourself at the end of this book. I'm like, oh, I know who I am.Phil Hudson:In some of my research for one of the pilots I wrote about special operators in the Seal team, six Delta fours, green Berets, army Rangers. I was listening to a bunch of podcasts, and one of 'em was talking about this principle that your level of trauma or your level of struggle is the same as mine. Even if something I've been through has been more horrific. From an objective perspective, our perception of my worst trauma and your worst trauma are equally impactful. And I'm wondering, we had very different childhoods, and we've talked a bit about mine and a little bit about yours, but does that process of exploring, why would you do things as a child? Is that healing for you?Michael Jamin:And it was healing and helpful. A lot of these stories, I feel, are apologies to various people I've heard over my life, and it's not written to be an apology, but when you're telling the truth, it's an apology. When you're acknowledging your end of it, it's an apology. And so I'm not writing it, Hey, please forgive me. It's just about the truth. And so, yeah, I really, it's so helpful, and hopefully this is what people will respond to. When you read the book, you go, oh, man, yeah, thank you for that. Thank you for putting to words what I couldn't do because I'm not a writer. Yeah,Phil Hudson:Yeah. That's the stuff that stays with us, right? It's a metaphor for things we're going through. And I think one of the most impactful lessons I learned in film school was the cool job effect.Michael Jamin:What is that?Phil Hudson:So it was this Russian director who showed the same shot of a man, and then he put it against a starving child or a child in a casket or food, or a beautiful woman. And at the end, everyone came up. And that actor was incredible. When he looked at the food, I could feel his desire for food. When he looked at that girl, I could see the pain of her death. And when he saw the woman, I could feel the lust. It's the exact same shot of the same man. And it's the subjective projection that one puts onto art that allows you, it's an unconscious way for you to make sense of your world and import what your experience is in on something, which is why art has always been a part of humanity. It's why it's something that we have always, I think, sought after. It's not entertainment from a sedation perspective where we're trying to avoid it. Sometimes it's that, but very often the things that impact us and mean something, they are things that we need to experience because they make sense. They allow us to make sense of our world.Michael Jamin:Right. That's a good point that you point that out. Yeah. It's like I feel like I've played a part of that in writing sitcoms sometimes, and there's a place for it. You'll come home after a long day, you just want to thrown out and laugh and really not be challenged and not go there, but for this piece. And there's nothing wrong with that. People want to be entertained. But for this,Phil Hudson:People still learn from that too, that people need that, and it serves a role too.Michael Jamin:They need that. But for this, I didn't want that. I wanted to go way deeper than that. I wanted to because I wanted to feel something. Because my contention as a comedy writer, and I know this is true, is that when you write that humor, write something funny. Or if you go, sometimes you'll go see a standup who's hilarious, but then you leave and you are hard pressed to remember one joke that you liked, or you're hard pressed to remember what you even liked about it. You go, I just spent an hour laughing, but I don't really remember any of it. I know I enjoyed myself, but I can't, it's not with me anymore. And what I really wanted to do was write something that would stay with you after this. So you were still feeling like we talked about, you're still feeling it. And you can't just do that with comedy. You have to mix drama into it. Because comedy, that's not what comedy does.Phil Hudson:Well, I mean, your course and what I've seen you do in your craft and sitcoms as well, this is really key point, is why do we care about this thing? The reason we don't care. That's the story. And that's the personal, and that's the people. And so, I mean, this has been your point, and what you've been teaching for years and years anyway is none of it matters unless it means something. And that is the drama part of the comedy. That comedy can break things and it can move us and give us that ebb and flow and that roller coaster effective emotions. And those are beautiful experiences to have in sitcoms or dramas or dramedies. But it's the, why are we watching this? It's the human thing. It's that human piece. That's what you're saying. That's what I'm hearing.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What's at stake here? What's really at stake? And again, I studied other writers. Some I thought did it great, and some I didn't think did it well at all. And so I was trying to hold myself to that higher standard of the ones who did it really well, because I knew what I, what I wanted out of this.Phil Hudson:And again, we've started by saying, you've climbed this mountain, and there's another mountain.Michael Jamin:There's another mountain. Sometimes people have said to me like, well, are you going to turn this into a TV show? It's so odd. It's so odd. Or a movie that somehow I was even watching, what was I watching, American Fiction, that movie. And there's a line in it where this author, she had a book that was a bestseller, and then she's giving an interview and someone said, oh, maybe they'll a hear. They're making a movie out of it. And she's like, well, I can't tell you anymore as if a movie is better than a book or a TV show is better than a book. A book could be a book, a book. What's wrong with a book? Just being a book.So I don't either have any plans to turn this in TV show. If anyone, could it be me? I am a TV writer. I could have very specific ideas on how I would want to do it, and whether a buyer would want to do that or not, I don't know. But I wouldn't compromise how I'd want to do it. But the best way to make it happen, if it did happen, I would have to sell a lot of books first. So if anyone wants to see it happen, then get a book. And then I would actually make content behind the scenes on TikTok, Hey, look at me now I'm meeting with this studio. And now if that's the ride you want to go on, then in order to go on that ride, I have to sell a lot of copies. But again, that's not my goal. Show support. You can if you're curious, but again, that's not my goal. The goal of this was only one thing. I want to write a book that moves people was never a TV show. I can write a TV show. I write TV shows. That's not what I wanted to do.Phil Hudson:And if you want to be moved, you have to buy a copy of the book because if you're listening to this and you want to experience what Michael has put together, you have to buy a copy of the book because that is, I know the number you've invested significantly into just making this happen for yourself. This is not some random cousin who's like, Hey, I wrote a book and I put it on Amazon publishing. This is the real deal. I mean, lift your book up if you don't mind, so people can see the cover. This has been out for a minute, but even just the story of this cover and how you got this cover and found this artist and license, it is a beautiful story in and of itself.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Okay. That's another thing. So I wanted to cover,Phil Hudson:Before we dive into this, I just wanted to point out too, when you were talking about, you looked at all these other writers and people and you said, that's who I want. That's the level I want to be at. You've done this one. Whatever you do next, you're still going to be saying the same thing. All right. What's the next level of professionalism or craft that I can get to? And that's because you are a pro, and that's what you tell people to be a professional, which is constantly striving to be better than the last time.Michael Jamin:Yeah. There are a lot of writers or authors, maybe indie authors, they're cranking out books. I'm like, Jesus, I cranked this out. This took four years. I didn't crank this out. This was worked on really, I really worked on it.Phil Hudson:But talk about your cover. I apologize for interjecting there. I just wanted to get that point across that you're still going to be pursuing that. Excellent. And that's what makes people stand out. Excellence stands out in a world, I hope so.Michael Jamin:Yeah, make something good and people will, okay, so for the cover, I wanted a good cover, but the book is funny and it's also very poignant. And so I looked at other books that I thought were really good, and so I found this one guy who had actually designed some of David Sari's early covers. I didn't know this guy, but obviously he gets comedy. So I read, his name is Steve Snyder. I just found him on Instagram. I don't know him from a hole in the wall. And I DMed him. I slid into his dms and I told him what I was working on, and I told him, I noticed how weird it's for me to reach out to him. And he goes, oh, well, send me your manuscript. So I did. And then a couple weeks went by, he wrote back. He goes, I love it. I'm in. And now this guy, he's like 80 or something, but he was retired. He goes, I'll come back out of retirement to make the cover for you. I go, great, but just so you know, I don't know what my budget is. He goes, oh, I'll do it for free. I want to be part of it. I love it. I want to be part of it.Phil Hudson:Wow, Michael, just let that sit. I know you've internalized that, but we talk about to everybody. You got to own the wins and you got to celebrate the victory. He's like, what does that mean to you that this accomplishedMichael Jamin:Desire? It was very validating. It was very, and then I was like, alright, well, I'll just figure out what I'm going to pay you later, but, but then as we were moving down the line, he's retired, so he was getting, I just made plans. I'm going to be traveling from, he goes, I want to do this, but I don't think I can get it done on time. He goes, I was like, okay, I don't want to, okay, maybe you can refer somebody. So he recommended one of these accolades, one of the people he trained under him. And so I reached out to her same deal. And so I want hiring her, Jenny Carro. She did a wonderful job with the cover, but getting the cover. And then when we finally got the cover and I reached out to Steve again, I go, here's the cover.You want to see it? And he goes, oh, damn. I love it. I wish I didn't drop out. That's awesome. But what happened with Jenny? So she came back with a bunch of covers that were good, but they didn't feel right. There was something about it didn't feel right. It was like almost, and then she had one cover, and I hate to keep going back and forth with her. I was like, I don't want to discourage her. So one was almost good, almost like right, but not quite right. And then I was intent. I was going to use it. And then for some reason I happened to see an ad on Facebook. It was an article about artists or whatever. So I click on this article and I'm reading the article, and then there's other, I see the cover that she was going to license for my, she was going to license some artwork for my cover, and I recognize it.I go, that's it. And I click on it to discover more about what this artist had done. And then, which took me to his website or his Instagram page, I don't remember. And then I discover all his other work and I go, that's the one. So this is a licensed piece of art from this Dutch artist named Tune Juin. And I reached out to him, I want to license this art for your book, for my book. And he goes, great. It was just a boy sitting on words. And the title is a paper orchestra. And so it's not, what does it mean? It's just a boy struggling with words. That's all it is. And that's what the book is. It's about a boy who grew up to be a man who struggled with words.Phil Hudson:Do you remember what I told you when you told me that story? You remember what I calledMichael Jamin:It? What did youPhil Hudson:I said, that's Providence.Michael Jamin:Providence, yeah. There was a lot of that. There was a lot of just, Hey, that's the universe telling me this is what your cover should be. And once I saw it, I go, that's it. We're done. We're done. We could stop looking.Phil Hudson:And then here's an artist who is putting art out that I would consider to not be standard, normal art that you would think about in a normal way. And then here he is featured in this article, and then here, now you're reaching out and his art is now supporting and improving your art. It's a beautiful thing.Michael Jamin:And then the same thing with Anthony Rizzo, who did the music. When I got him aboard, I go, listen, Anthony, I'm making this audiobook. I don't know how much I can pay you. He goes, I don't care. I want to be part of it. So I was like, okay. And then I had a small budget for him, but then I got this brand deal from Final Draft. I go, oh, good. I can give him whatever I was going to pay him. Now I can pay him additional money from this brand deal. It doesn't come really out of my pocket. Its money. It's kind of found money. So I just give it right to him. That's great. That'sPhil Hudson:Great. I love that, man. Your network will pay in spades if the work you do is quality and you're a good person. I've seen that for you. I've seen that for myself. I've seen it in lots of other people. People want to be a part of your project if what you're doing means something and you're kind. And if you were Dick, imagine you were the showrunner and you were throwing tantrums and going on Tirades on Marin. Do you think anybody, I would want to work with you on this.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But there's that. And like I said, there's also build it for, if I started this by saying, reaching out to these people on Instagram or whatever, Hey, I have this idea that I want to make. Will you be part? No, come back to me when you're done, basically. And so for everyone who has a movie they want to make or a scene, alright, shoot a scene on a park bench with your phones. They're like, you don't need to spend $10,000. You could do it for 50. Whatever you need.Phil Hudson:Jamie Kaler, who I think you're going to have on the podcast, he just Captain Polonsky on Taco D and a bunch of other stuff. I had a long running series as well. He's got a series that he did with another known actor called Dad's in a Park, I think is what it's called. It's him on a bench with another dad just talking about dad stuff.Michael Jamin:And where's that on YouTube?Phil Hudson:I'll find it. I think it's on YouTube and Instagram. But it's so real and funny. It's like, yeah, this makes sense. And it's two great actors who are just doing their thing. And it plays and it plays really well. It's very funny.Michael Jamin:And when you look at people doing interesting things, this is what I say, people who are just popping, who just broke onto the Hollywood scene somehow. Somehow they have a special on Netflix or somehow they're a star of a show or a movie, whatever. Look how they did it. They did it themselves. And then Hollywood discovered them because Hollywood was like, oh, we can make money off this person.Phil Hudson:It's the fable. It wasn'tMichael Jamin:The other way around.Phil Hudson:It's a fable of overnight success that is never overnight success. There was always something before that. EveryMichael Jamin:Time, these are people who are already building it, people like me, people like you who are already building it, and then people see go, oh, what's that fool over there building? I want in on it. And that fool's going to say, well, you can be in or you can either way. I'm doing it without you. So come along for the ride if you wantPhil Hudson:Going to happen. I had love to talk about some of the endorsements of your book, if that's okay. I don't want to embarrass you with some of this stuff. How do you feel about telling the John Mayer story?Michael Jamin:Oh my God. That's anotherPhil Hudson:Thing. I think it's a great story. And I'll just say this. Michael will always be very hesitant about bringing in friends or colleagues to talk about his stuff. And he's made it very clear as we're talking about how to help him market his book, how are we doing this in a way that's not going to ever feel like I am using these people? And so what we have on your site that are published are reviews that people have given you of your book. And there are sincere, honest reviews of your book. And these are people you've worked with and some of them are people you've not worked with. And Mark and John Mayer I think is just this amazing story of someone you've never worked with, but because of this mountain that you've built and that you've climbed, now there's this relationship or connection with John, the John Mayer. Yeah. And I think it's worth talking about, and John May and John Mayer has this great TV show that was on VH one. It's called John Mayer has a TV show, by the way. It's one of the funniest things I have ever seen. Oh, really? And you talk about you ever gone to a standup comedy show or something and you laughed. And I remember bits from this thing. Oh, funny. It is that funny. I'll send it to you after.Michael Jamin:But yeah, I want to see that. Yeah, I just noticed that he was following me on Instagram or I think on, IPhil Hudson:Think Mark Hoppel in the course, if I recall, tagged, commented and said, Hey, did anyone see? Is that the John Mayer? I think he kind of shouted it out in yourMichael Jamin:Comments. Yeah, I had forgotten that. John. Every once in a while, someone famous would follow me. I'm like, look at that. Look at that. That's odd. Which is nice. And then so yeah, so he was been following me, and then I needed to get a blurb. I'm like, why not reach out to John Mayer? What do I got to lose? And he is a fabulous musician and guitarist. He really can play. That guy can play. So I just sent him a dm. Hey John Mayer. I know this is weird. I got a book coming out. I'd love a blurb from you. I can just send you one chapter if you want, just one chapter. That way you don't have to, whatever you want. And so he goes, yeah, yeah. He writes back, I just finished. I'm on way back to the hotel. He just finished a concert, right? It was by 10 at night. It was, I don't know what time it was. It was late where he wasPhil Hudson:Just putting Michael Jam in late night sliding into John Mayer's dms. Everybody just keep that in mind.Michael Jamin:So he's in his car going back to the hotel, and I'm like, all right. So I sent him one story, and I think it was the Ghoul, the one we were just talking about. And he was great. I'll read it. He's just unwinding from his show. And so about a half hour later, he writes back to me, and this is the quote I put on the book he wrote, it's fantastic multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time, his knockout punches are stinging sincerity, which is exactly what a musician would write. Yeah,Phil Hudson:Multi.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I go, this is perfect because I can write more. And I'm like, this is perfect. And so we spent, I don't know, an hour or so just DMing each other and I'm asking him questions about art, and he's just DMing back. I'm like, holy shit. I'm DMing John Mayer. And it was getting late, and it was later where he was. He was on the East Coast, and my wife's like, I'm lying in bed. Are you still talking to John Mayer? Yeah, I'mPhil Hudson:StillMichael Jamin:Talking to John MayerPhil Hudson:Was hilarious. You can't write that. It's a beautiful little thing. But he was so gracious. You're lying in bed next to your wife, DMing someone. And it's John Mayer. It's John Mayer. It's not some floozy. It's not some random girl on the internet. It's John Mayer. And she's like,Michael Jamin:He had so many interesting things to say and I'll continue sharing with another podcast. But I was asking him about art, about his, like I said, I learned from musicians, for some reason, what they do resonates with me and was, I dunno. He was so gracious and he did it right away. And what he wrote was beautiful. And then I was asking him about some of the songs he wrote, and he had some really good advice that applies to writing as well that I thought was just this guy's, when you talk to him, you go, oh, this guy's an artist. He's not phoning any of this in. He gives a lot of thought to what he's doing and it's super important to him. And I just thought, I just have so much respect for people like that. It was like he not a guy trying to be famous. He's a guy trying to make really good music.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, his blue stuff is beautiful. Love it. That's great. Obviously you got quotes from Mark Marin. He said some really kind things about you. He said, Michael was essential in helping me portray myself. Honestly. Michael did a beautiful job of it with a paper orchestra portraying your authentic self.Michael Jamin:And that was something I learned actually from running his TV show. Mark was very vulnerable on the show and very, we break stories in the room and I'm like, boy, I can't believe you're admitting to that. And he almost looked, well, of course. Of course. Why wouldn't I? And so learning how to write for him actually was very helpful. Learning how to write this,Phil Hudson:Kevin and Steve, I picked that up in Tacoma of D too. They, there's no shame in the life that they've led. They will just tell you,Michael Jamin:Especially Steve. Steve will tell you everything you want to know.Phil Hudson:Shameless, love it. Love Steve. There you go. Steve called me out on his podcast and said, he said, not that Phil Hudson's not an actor, but he's not. And I was like, oh, Steve, that hurts. Oh yeah. He told me that my acting went to my head. I was like, it did a little, that's, there you go, Steve. Shots fired. Yeah. But it's like not having pride of that. And it allows you to be vulnerable enough to get to the things. It is what you've told me before, though, nobody cares.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:No one cares. You think other people care. They don't care. They're too busy thinking about themselvesMichael Jamin:And they're not. I've said this before, is that I think one of the worries people had when I was writing this book, they go, well, this is pretty personal, pretty vulnerable. Are you worried about being judged? And I've responded, I'm more worried about people judging me to be a bad writer. And so because of that, I will go there. I will give it to you because that's more concerning to me that you think I'm a bad writer. And so ironically, if you're worried about being judged, the course of action you should take is allow yourself to be judged and then you won't be judged.Phil Hudson:You and I were talking to another writer once and they said that they didn't want to go there, and you told me, we had a conversation. Did you hear what they said? And it's like, this is someone who has lived a life and has a story to tell and they won't go there.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I'm like, well, you signed up for the wrong job. That's the job. Sorry.Phil Hudson:It was beautiful. Laura Sanoma left me a beautiful Barb beer.Michael Jamin:She's so sweet. I worked with her on Jas Shoot Me. It was my first job. And so I reached out to her and if you want to read, but she wrote,Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's hard to see the letters I'm typing because my eyes are still Misty. Michael was a writer on a show I did, and I know he's funny. That's his gift and profession. I did laugh out loud that I expected, but what I appreciated the most was being led into Thoughts down the path to his deepest confessions and deepest Loves Good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved The Journey. And Michael, I don't know that there's any more fitting way to cap off the conversation we've had today than that quote.Michael Jamin:And she's an artist as well. I mean, she's an actor. I remember working with her. Laura's with the material. She's an artist. So I think she appreciated my journey as well.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Not to take away from that, I just thought if we could just talk about some of the other people who've read your book and Left Blurbs, and you guys can go see [email protected] slash book. You've got Steve Levitan, who co-created Modern Family. He's the creator of Just Shoot Me Your First Real Boss, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah.Phil Hudson:Judy Greer, the infamous Judy Greer. John Schuller, who co-created Silicon Valley. He worked with you on King of the Hill.Michael Jamin:Yeah, king of the Hill and Lopez as well.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Max Mutchnick, the co-creator, will and Grace, Dave Krinsky. He was a showrunner in King of the Hill. John Abel, who was a writer on Kung Fu Panda, who wrote Kung Fu Panda, the infamous Steve Lemmy from Broken Lizard Lemmy, Kevin Heffernan from Super Drew Beers Beer, fast to Co FD and Broken Lizard, and David Litt, who was a co-creator of King of Queens. And you have many more that are not listed here, but it seems to me like the people who've read your book at a high level, people that we look up to or know are having the same experience that Phil Hudson's having in 2022, sitting in a small theater in Glendale, California, watching you perform your craft and seeing your vulnerability on stage. And so it really does feel transcendent and something that we will speak to everybody who listens to it on audio or reads it on digital or in paperback.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. So I hope all of you will enjoy it. And if you are writers yourselves, I hope it inspires you to mine your own life for stories. And that's actually the last chapter I talk about that how I turn is a little behind the scenes of how I actually turn this idea into a story like my thought process while, so if that interests you as well, that's also a part of the book as a bonus little part.Phil Hudson:That's great. Now, I am one who will buy almost all formats of a book. I can put on audio while I'm, audio is better for me. I can remember most of that tones and things like that. But often when I'm trying to study something, I will read it while I'm listening to it. This feels almost like a performance, getting to see you live in the audio book format here, and I think there's a bonus. Is that right? With your wife, Cynthia, who directed this?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. That's on the audio book. We had a little, again, a different behind the scenes as well. Some people, at the end of the day, it is very visual because I still write it as if like, okay, what are we watching in the scene? I am still a screenwriter at heart. So you're like, okay, it's not very, so I try to make these scenes, I go, so you can picture it. So in your head, I think it's part of the enjoyment. You get to see it in your head. Although, like I said, I didn't want you to think I was a TV writer, but parts of it I think you have to embrace.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Well, all formats available right [email protected]. Anywhere books are found at this stage right through set up. So if you're interested, go pick it up. You're doing sign copies on your website, so can sign copy. You can go to michael jamon.com/book and you can get it there. Anything else you want to talk about your book?Michael Jamin:That's it. We got some merch as well. We got some accompanying merch. That's another thing. I hope this works out by the time I have to make merch. So I have a friend who is, I hope this works out. We're talking on Monday. He does the bumpers. He used to do the bumpers for the Conan O'Brien show. So he's helped me with design some of the merch, and this is how it works. If people out, Hey, I want to be part of that.Phil Hudson:Well, it's been a pleasure and I just want say, and I'm so proud of you as your friend and someone I look up to is beyond just a mentor, really, someone I look to as a dear friend, I am so proud of you for the work you've put in for putting yourself out there. I have seen, and again, you're older than me and have lived more life than I have, but in the time I've known you, I've seen your growth as you've put yourself out there to be more vulnerable, to share your art, and you're reaping the rewards of that through other people wanting to participate and the ability to impact other people. And I think you're a great example to people of why you should be putting yourself out there. Because imagine all of the lives you've touched over the last two and a half years through the podcast, through your videos, through your social media content, and how many of them you would've never, ever been able to impact had you not started down this journey that you didn't want to go down, but needed to. Because as we've heard in stoicism say, the obstacle is the way, right. Your path, this obstacle of growing, your following and putting yourself out there is the path. That journey is the path you needed to go down to have the fulfillment of getting this out.Michael Jamin:And thank you for all your help and your help marketing this and all that stuff, the website, all that stuff.Phil Hudson:Of course, happy to support you in anything you're doing here. And likewise, it's so mutual too. And for everybody, this isn't something I'm getting paid to do. I'm doing it, and I've been doing it because it's mutually beneficial. I want to be a part of what you're doing, and I've been begging for this for years of knowing you get this type of stuff. So it's mutually beneficial. And everybody who knows me because of Michael, thank you for that trust. But Michael, thank you for having the life experience to say what you need to say in a way that is impactful.Michael Jamin:Well, thank you. That's beautifully said. That's because you're a writer. ThankPhil Hudson:You. Working on it.Michael Jamin:Working on it.Phil Hudson:Thank you, sir. Lots of stuff to talk about. Obviously the book is the most important thing right now. There's webinars, there's of courses, there's free stuff. But right now, now's the time to go support on the book and do something for yourself. Get the book and give yourself time to breathe and sit with it and feel it.Michael Jamin:Yeah, feel it. Go get it. Michael jamen.com. Thank you guys soPhil Hudson:Much. Until next time. Keep reading.Michael Jamin:Keep reading. Thank you, Phil.Phil Hudson:Catch you guys later. Bye.Michael Jamin:Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asked the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/screenwriters-need-to-hear-this/exclusive-content

On October 28th, I hosted a webinar called "How To Write A Great Story," where I talked about how to come up with interesting and unique story ideas, as well as how tapping into your everyday life interactions with people can help with this. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:Yeah, you better figure that out because your story needs to be about one thing everyone wants to throw in the kitchen sink. And it's about this, but it's also about this, but it also has elements of this. It's like, no, no, you don't know what your story is. You got a hot mess. You can't kitchen sink it. Your story's about one thing. And if you think it's about two things, congratulations. Now you have a sequel or you have another episode, but your story's about one thing. And if you think I'm making it up, read stories that you've enjoyed and ask yourself the same question. What is this about you're listening to? What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity, I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts. Hey everyone, welcome back to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? And today I am answering your questions and I'm back here with Phil. Welcome back, Phil,Phil Hudson:Good to be here. Thank you forMichael Jamin:Having me. We had a delay because I borrowed some of Phil's mic equipment for a few weeks and then I gave it back to him with the wrong card. And then Phil, you learned a lesson. The lesson is no good deed goes unpunished.Phil Hudson:Oh man, I feel like's. I'mMichael Jamin:Happy to have taught you that lesson. ThankPhil Hudson:You for teaching me that lesson. I feel like the theme of every story I've ever written is that you get screwed either way. Just so everyone knows. Sometimes high tech is low tech and we have these awesome zoom recorders and they only allow you to have a 32 megabyte SD card. And then the American way of gluttony. We bought massive SD cards for the podcast, missed an SD card somewhere. SoMichael Jamin:Here we're won't run, but we're back and we made it work. We had a little delay. And so today I have these webinars every three weeks or so where I talk to people about writing. And anyone's welcome to join. It's free, go to michaeljamn.com/webinar for the next one. And we have a rotating list of topics that I cover and they're all writing related. And so these are some of the questions I didn't have time to answer during these webinars.Phil Hudson:And you are often testing new subjects too, so if you've attended them in the past, make sure you come sign up so you can get into those.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Alright, well, we've got several topics and as we do, I tend to group these together based on subject matter, and these are raw questions just ask during the podcast. So I apologize in advance for ruining people's names and mispronouncing everything, but let's start with craft. I think that's the thing people care a lot about is how do they get better at writing? And s sl junk indie author asks, how does the story structure fluctuate depending on genre, I should say too, this is from your podcast, how to Write a Great Story, which is one of your MyMichael Jamin:Webinar. My webinar. YourPhil Hudson:Webinar, yeah, yeah. Excuse me. Your webinar, how to Write a Great Story, which is one of your most popular webinars that we have. So if you haven't signed up for that, go do that the next time it's up. So how does the story structure fluctuate? Depending on genre, if I'm writing a horror, but I'm used to fantasy, what are some things I need to consider when structuring my story?Michael Jamin:I really don't think there's that much of a difference, to be honest. I think if you're writing a mystery that's different, and I think writing mysteries, people do it wrong all the time. Rich are a little harder to do, but you're just telling the story structure is very similar. You're telling a scary story. A horror story is just a scary story. A fantasy is just, it is a fantastical story, but they're just stories. I mean, everyone gets hung up on these genres. You get to decide the tone and the tone of your story is scary or fantastical, but it's still a story.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Something that you told me privately that I think is interesting for everybody listening, you were approached by a publisher who said, we want to make you the next Save the Cat. We want you to publish this book series, and you've never read any of those things. But for those of us who have, this is commonly taught, what are the tropes of your genre? What are the things in your genre? What is the story structure of your genre? And it's like you read between the lines and it's like what you've said many times. You're taking something apart and reassembling that and it's not the right way. You need to start with structure and then move forward. It's the same reason you do a foundation and then a frame, and then you do the rest of the house.Michael Jamin:You can paint the house any color you want, and that's whether it's scary or funny or dramatic or whatever. That's just color of paint. But the house still looks the same for the framing, still looks the same regardless of what paint you want to put on it.Phil Hudson:Awesome. Just Mason May. How does someone overcome the concern that our work won't live up to its potential?Michael Jamin:Oh, it never does. To get over it, you'll never be happy. You'll never be, oh, I should have done it. This. When you're done, you're always going to look at it and go, I wonder if this could have been better. I think any artist is going to feel that way, but if the question is how do I make sure it's good enough to even share, well, then you can just give it to your friend or your mother or whoever and have them look at it and read it. Take your name off the cover and ask them, did you enjoy reading this? When you got to the bottom of the page, did you want to turn the page or not? And if you wanted to turn the page, you did a good job. And if you didn't, something's wrong.Phil Hudson:Right. Aside from that, what would you recommend people do to overcome the fear of rejection or the fear of someone hating their work?Michael Jamin:I get over it. I mean, that's the job you're signing up for this. Hopefully no one's going to be too mean to you, but just know that when I was starting off, I was no good. No one's good when they start off. I mean, no one starts every single artist you admire, musician, actor, writer, whatever, performer, they were not good when they started. Listen to them in interviews. They'll say as much, so you get better. The more you do, the better you get.Phil Hudson:Yeah. We watch these kids shows now that I've got small children, and one of our favorite shows is Bluey, which I've talked about before. And they just dropped a bunch of new episodes yesterday, and one of the episodes is about drawing. And the daughter bluey is not good at drawing, but the dad's not good at drawing, but the mom's really good at drawing, and then the little sister doesn't care at all. She's just a kid and she's just drawing whatever she wants. And so the dad's super conscientious, self-conscious of what he's drawing. And so bluey the protagonist becomes a little self-conscious of her drawing, and they tell the story that the dad made fun of when he was a kid. So he stopped and the mom, just, her mom incentivized her, encouraged her, you're doing great for a 7-year-old. And she was like, oh, and that was enough. And then she became a wonderful artist. So at the end, bluey and the dad are both freed up to draw the things that they got made fun of or were worried about. And it's this beautiful allegory of just, Hey, just let it go. Who cares? That person's just being a jerk and it's because they envy what you do. That'sMichael Jamin:A good lesson. That's a good lesson from that show.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's a great show. I bet we should watch it with your kids, Michael.Michael Jamin:My kids are too old to watch TV with me now.Phil Hudson:Yeah, that's scary. It's so sad to hear that. Rachel Zoo, I would like to get my motivation for riding back and for everybody. You have this other webinar you just put out, which is about how professional writers overcome writer's block. And I think that kind of addresses this, but this was before that. But what general thoughts do you have about getting motivation back to write?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, I can't motivate anyone. I mean, if you don't have the motivation in you, then it's not going to get done. So you have to be self-driven. But probably what you're experiencing is the fact that you just don't know how to do it. And so when you don't know how to do something or you think you're bad at it, it's not fun. Why would you want to do anything when you feel like you're horrible at it? But once you learn how to do it and story structure can be taught and it doesn't make writing easier, it makes it easier. It doesn't make it easy, but it makes it easier. So I think the problem that you're facing is you just dunno how to do it yet. So come to some of my webinars and that'll help you a lot just to learn. You're flailing. I don't blame you. It's no fun. When you're flailingPhil Hudson:For everybody who is unaware, you also give away the first lesson of your online course for free @michaeljamin.com/free. And you teach this beautiful lesson about what is story. That alone is worth its weight in gold because it's just something we all miss or forget. And you've even said you forget sometimes.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I mean, I was watching a movie that I got a screener the other, and I'm getting halfway through, I go, there's no story here. I'm bored. And now my wife was bored by it too, but she didn't know why. I knew why because I'm a writer. I'm like, what's the story you're telling? No one knew. And yet the movie got made. I dunno, I got to tell you.Phil Hudson:Yeah. The other thing that comes to mind is many people have heard this guy, and you've heard me talk about him before, this guy, Jocko Willink, former Navy Seal leadership consultant, multiple New York Times bestsellers, a huge podcast, and he has this motto that says, discipline equals freedom. And he's like, it's a little bit counterintuitive because you think if you're disciplined, then you don't have choice and you can't do things. And his point is, if you are disciplined, you don't have to rely on motivation. And that's what I hear from you and I've heard from other professional writers is being a professional is doing it When you don't feel like it, motivation doesn't matter.Michael Jamin:You know what? I'll tell you as well, I post every day on TikTok or at least five or six days a week. I find, and I've talked to other creators who feel the same way. If I take too many days off, it gets harder to get back on. So two is the max, and you got to, because I know people think it's easy to, it's not easy posting on social media. It's like I got to think about what I'm going to say. I got to rehearse it, I got to shoot it, then I got to tag it, upload it, make all the meta tags. I don't do it in two seconds. And yeah, it's like brushing your teeth. You have to do it,Phil Hudson:And that's like any habit they say you can mess up once, don't mess up twice. It's like dieting, don't make two bad choices. If you made one, that's okay. Now continue to get back on track, but it's discipline, discipline, discipline. You just need to sit down and do the work because that is what is required. And if you're not willing to do that, this is not the career for you. It might be fun for you to do on your own, but even then I imagine that's going to be pretty brutal if you don't have the discipline and the habit of just sitting down and doingMichael Jamin:It. Oh, even if it's a hobby, it'll still be more fun if you know how to do it. I mean, golf is a hobby for most people. The better you get, the more fun it is to play.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I don't like being bad at things. That's very true. Great. Stephanie Anthony, what are daily writing exercise exercises that are invaluable to helping to build stronger storytelling muscles?Michael Jamin:Well, I don't do exercises, but would certainly have. Keeping a journal or a diary and writing it, knowing that no one will read it is very freeing. When I was in high school, I wrote, I had a creative writing class and our assignment was to write daily entries in this journal and we gave it to him at the end of every class and then he would read it and he was always so kind. He always said such nice things about what I wrote. He was looking forward to reading it. I thought that was really nice of him to do. I'm sure it wasn't very good, but I was trying to entertain him and he appreciated it. Yeah, just write and read how those are your exercises. Write and read.Phil Hudson:I've talked before about some of my experiences translating for the Sundance Labs and some of the things I got to do with the scholarship I had through Robert Redford and this woman Joan, who runs these workshops at the labs for whether you're a writer, a director, whether you're doing editing, whatever it is, everyone goes through this basic storytelling lab with her, these workshops almost every day. And it's about taking, basically it's what you talk about in your course, mining your life for stories. And I remember that one time I went and she saw me and she recognized me from doing this Redford scholarship stuff, and she was like, it's so good to see you here. And I told her what I was doing and she was introducing everybody in the room and I introduced myself and she was kind enough to say, and Phil is a very talented writer, and I made the mistake of saying, well, that's why I'm here translating. And I've been thinking about that literally today as doing the work and practicing and getting better and then getting acknowledgement from other people is important. The practice of doing it every single day is the exercise. And then I think the other exercise is accepting people's praise when it's earned and deserved.Michael Jamin:Take the compliment because you know why it's insulting not to. It insults the person, not if you shit on it, then they gave you a giftPhil Hudson:And I did.Michael Jamin:I see people do it all the time. You're not the only one. It's normal. You also feel like, well, I'm not good enough.Phil Hudson:My thought was like, well, I'm not in the labs, so I'm here translating, but I did it in front of people and I did apologize to her after, and she was very kind and we had a good chat about it, but that was ringing in my head today.Michael Jamin:It's hard to take a compliment for a lot, a lot of time I feel the same way. I feel the same way,Phil Hudson:But if you say no or you shoot it down, then it's all going to be harder because you're reinforcing unconsciously that you are not good or it isn't good enoughMichael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:You got to take the wins. Take the wins.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right.Phil Hudson:Awesome. A couple of questions related to the topic, and you're online screenwriting course, so they're kind of bundled together, Joel Riedel regarding execution of an idea in a script. How do you know when you've taken a script far enough? In other words, how do you know if it's ready?Michael Jamin:Well, kind of the same. I kind of touched on this earlier, but basically give it to someone and take the title sheet off. If so, they don't know you wrote it and then give 'em a week or so to read it. And if they get to page 20 and they ask, they're going to say, what do I know? I'm not a Hollywood director. How do I know if your script is any good? You say, well, no. When you get to 20, do you want to read more? Does it feel like I gave you a gift or a homework assignment? That's it. You don't even, because your reader is your audience, they don't have to be a Hollywood insider to know whether they like something or not. Do they want to turn the page or not? And if they do, it's good. If it's not, if they don't, that's a problem.Phil Hudson:Yeah, there's levels of that too, because I've written things that I've given to friends and they said this was great and then given 'em to you and you've given me good praise, but solid feedback and things that I could improve, and it's the quality of the feedback is also important, but what I'm hearing you say is regardless of that, if you have a show on tv, whoever's going to sit down and invest their time to watch your story, they need to all understand there's a story here and it's worth the hour of my time, the 27 minutes of my time, whatever it is that they're doing.Michael Jamin:Yeah, because no one's obligated to watch your show. They'll turn the channel now. So that's how you judge things.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Are you ever at a point when you write things where you feel you've done enough, I'm happy with that one, that one's good to go, or is it always like, I can make that better. I just got to turn it in?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I always feel that way. Even with my book coming out, I always feel like I could have done that a little differently, but it's like, no, you got to let it go. You got to let, but I saw an interview with Frank Geary and he was looking at, I think it was 60 minutes, and he was staring at the Disney Concert Hall, which he designed, and he's a fantastic architect. I think he was with Leslie Stall, and they're admiring his work and she goes, when you see this building and it is one of the most beautiful buildings in la, yeah, it'sPhil Hudson:Great. It's gorgeous. If you guys have seen Iron Man, I want to say Iron Man one, they go to it,Michael Jamin:They do. It's very sculptural. It looks like a piece of sculpture, and she said, when you look at this building, what do you see? He goes, I see all the things I would do differently now, and he's a master, so you just never get past that stage,Phil Hudson:But that's not the job of a pro, which is what you teach. The job of a professional is you do the work, you turn it in, you move on.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you move on to something else and make the next one better if you can.Phil Hudson:Well, you always do the best you can with the time you have. Is that accurate to say?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah, for sure. That's definitely what with tv, we got to turn on an episode of TV and at the end of the week, so we do the best we can.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Awesome. Camika Hartford in creating a story with structure in mind first, is it ever useful to organically write or figure it out, then go back and pick out the pieces you want to create a solid narrative, or is that just wasted time? This is in regards to Greta Gerwig process. That's a little bit different than most people. That'sMichael Jamin:A great question, and if you were writing a movie on your own time, sure, you can write it. You don't have time to schedule. You could take four years to write your movie, and if you want to discover it organically and if you understand how to do that, if you understand what that means, it means you have to write and write and then you figure out what the story is. Then once you finally find the story, you can go back and rewrite all the other stuff that's not the story and then fix it. But you still have to understand what story structure is to know what you're fixing. If you were to on a TV show though, you don't have that luxury. You're on staff with a bunch of other writers in a room, and before one word is written, you break the story on the whiteboard and then you outline it. Just don't discovering the story. Everyone agrees on what the story is in the writer's room, so it's a very different process. One is more organic, the other is definitely more efficient.Phil Hudson:You said everyone agrees, and I've been in the room, or I've seen people not agree with the showrunner.Michael Jamin:When I say everyone agrees, I mean the showrunner agrees. Yeah,Phil Hudson:So just for a point of clarification for people, it is not your job to approve every decision in a writer's room, but like you said, when you're writing something for yourself, you have the luxury of doing that. So yeah, fascinating question and answer. Thank you, cam. Gleb, Lin, how can I bring my vision to life through a screenplay?Michael Jamin:How can I bring my vision to life? I'm not really sure. Are they asking how do I sell it orPhil Hudson:How do I think? What I'm hearing from this question based on the topic is, alright, so I've got this vision for what I want my story to be, and I've chosen screenplay as my medium. How do I get what's in my head on the pageMichael Jamin:And justice?Phil Hudson:You knowMichael Jamin:What? I saw this short by Wes Anderson last night, God, I can't remember what it was called, damnit, I don't remember what it was called. It was with Ray Fines and Ben Kingsley. It was a half hour long and it was typical Wes Anderson only, it wasn't shot like a movie, it was shot like a stage play, and so the character would talk and behind the character, the sets would move and would fly in this different set. Then he'd pretend to walk and then he'd be in a different set, and it was wonderful to watch. It was so creative, but on paper, it's the most boring thing in the world. There's no magic on paper. You have to see it. So if that's what you want to do, you're going to have to just build that yourself. You're going to have to got a phone, you got a camera, you got friends, make it yourself and don't spend a lot of money. Whatever you think it's going to cost, I guarantee you I can shoot it for much less because it's not about the money. It's always about the words and the more creative you are. I did a bunch of commercials that I wrote for,Phil Hudson:It's just about to talk about, wereMichael Jamin:You going to say that?Phil Hudson:I was, yeah.Michael Jamin:For Twirly Girl, my wife had a company called Twirly Girl, and we shot all these commercials and I wrote and produced them and I hired a bunch of high school kids to shoot it as my crew and the sets, I built the sets out of cardboard, literally I got cardboard boxes and I built everything. And the fact that it was made out of a cardboard made it funnier. It made it silly,Phil Hudson:But tonally on point too because it's a children's clothing line, right? Yeah.Michael Jamin:But it was magical, but it had the same, Wes Anderson has that same kind of magical thing about him. It doesn't exist so cool about it.Phil Hudson:For those of you who haven't seen them, are those published anywhere? Are they on Twirly Girl YouTube? I know we have in your Vimeo account. I've seen them.Michael Jamin:I know there, I mean, I think you could see some of them. If you go to twirly girl shop.com,Phil Hudson:Would you ever want those published on your site just as examples?Michael Jamin:We can do that. Do you think someone is interested? We should put some there.Phil Hudson:Why don't you guys, if you guys are listening to this, just go comment on Instagram and just put hashtag twirly girl in the comments, and so we know if you guys want to see 'em, we can load 'em up on your side. Yeah,Michael Jamin:We can make a page for that, but it's probably a good idea, Phil. I think it should be inspiring. Each of those commercials, they're about three to five minutes long, whatever. Maybe they're five minutes, but I cut 'em down to three and each one costs, the first one I think was 1200 bucks. You can do it cheap. You can do it cheap.Phil Hudson:My business partner Rich, he was one of my professors in film school, actually he's teaching at Grand Canyon University in Arizona. He's teaching film right now. And so for the final project last semester, he had them shoot a video, basically that kind of commercial for pickleball brand. And the thing looks incredible. There's amazing camera, there's crane movement, there's drones, it looks good, and $128.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Oh, that's great. That's great.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it looks like it was 10 grand. Now there's, it got to perform as an ad. I dunno, but the quality was definitely there and what I'm getting to is when you talk about getting your vision to life, it is the job of the writer. It is the job of the writer to get the vision on the page so that anyone who reads it can see that vision. But it is the director's job to take that and work with the art department and everyone else to expand it. Or in tv, the writer is typically the showrunner. That showrunner has that same capacity to get the vision made beyond doing it yourself. I think the other piece of advice that I might give would be you need to understand your craft. You need to understand what a screenplay looks like, and your formatting and your own style and tone are going to influence your ability to do that on the page. If you're not going to produce your own stuff, and I don't mean that to counter what or contrast with what you're saying, it's just the person who's not going to go shoot those things. If you're just talking about it from a writer's perspective, you got to have your story there. The structure has to be sound, and then you need to be able to use the words and the style and format of screenwriting to get the job done to convey that vision.Michael Jamin:And as you were talking, I forgot to tell you this morning on TikTok, someone tagged me and they said they're in law school and that they're taking an entertainment law class and their professor assigned them to watch my channel.Phil Hudson:That's awesome. Why?Michael Jamin:I don't know why. What a weird homework assignment.Phil Hudson:Love it. Love it. Maybe he's going to just call out all the things that you could be sued for. Yeah, maybe. That's wild, man. The world's shifted in the Michael Jamin sphere over here. You got Michael's got his own Wikipedia page too. Yeah,Michael Jamin:I'm on Kpia. Yeah,Phil Hudson:A couple of years ago you would've never wanted any of this attention, right?Michael Jamin:No, I still struggle with it a little bit. I still strugglePhil Hudson:Just highlighting that for everybody here who's struggling to put their stuff out there, what a lot of these questions are about, you wanted to do something, just publish this book and you said, what do I need to make that happen? It's been over two years in that process. And your book will be coming out pretty soon.Michael Jamin:Yeah, we'll do a special episode on that. But yeah, when I'm yelling at you guys to build the damn mountain to build it yourself, I just want you to know everything I recommend, either I have done or I'm currently doing, so I'm not talking out of my ass. SoPhil Hudson:Zero hypocrisy here with the recommendations and I will defend you on that because I see it happening. Yeah. Alright. Sucks to suck has a question. Great. Great. Username story build finding, planning the path of the characters. This is a statement, it's not a question, but when you're story building, how do you find or plan the path for your characters? What are their arcs?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean, that's something I teach in my course, my screenwriting course. Come sign up michael jammin.com/course, but that's not a 32nd answer. That's a 14 hour course. So yeah, come to my webinars. I did a webinar a couple weeks ago where I literally gave away part of the course. Not a lot of it, just a small part of it.Phil Hudson:I was surprised. It's a lot though. It's a lot of nuggets in there of,Michael Jamin:Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff in that. I was like, I kind of felt like, guys, if you don't hit the whole thing, you're missing out because this is pretty good stuff.Phil Hudson:What was that? How professional writers create great characters? Is thatMichael Jamin:What it meant? No, it was, I don't know. It was not. It might've been getting past writer's block or what was the onePhil Hudson:After that? Both of those are pretty good, and I think you've given a lot of new context and a lot of context in there for that. I think it was a great characters was one specifically on this subject, and you talk about this, I don't want to spoil it for people who are going to miss it, but you talk about the principle of how to put the right character in a story and it is worth watching. I don't want to steal the opportunity for you to learn that lesson by listening to Michael.Michael Jamin:Come to my talk on characters that it'll help you a lot and it's free.Phil Hudson:Awesome. Sammy Cisneros, how strict should we follow conventional story structure?Michael Jamin:I would say don't break the rules until you understand them. So I would say very strict, and just so you know, I don't break the rules and I've been doing it for a long time. If it ain't broke, why fix it? Honestly, once you're in that story structure, there's still so much creative freedom that you can have once you understand, it's not like I don't feel handcuffed when I'm writing a story that way. I feel liberated. I understand how to do it. There's the roadmap that'll help.Phil Hudson:You discussed this principle of Picasso in your free lesson, which I think everyone should go pick up or rewatch if you've signed up for it in the past, but you talk about what it means to become a master and it's visually apparent when you look at the way you display that in that lesson.Michael Jamin:Yeah, go watch. Yeah, that was in the free lesson,Phil Hudson:Michael jamon.com/free.Michael Jamin:Yeah, go watch that. That'll help.Phil Hudson:Great. Leoni Bennett, when breaking a story, do you keep track of both plot and story?Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's all yes, all yes. And if you don't know what that means, there's a difference between plot and story, and I talk about this in I think the free lesson, but yeah, you have to keep both in mind. You don't do one without the other. It's the same time. You can have a plot if you have a good plot, but no story. You got nothing. If you've got a good story but no plot, you also have nothing. So you need both.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I think lesson two in the course is heavily dedicated to this, and you do touch on it on the free one, but second year in the course and you get to lesson two, it's like, oh, okay, this makes a lot more sense. And I've always said this since we started the podcast and doing this stuff together. You're the only writer I know online who talks about story and not plot everyone else's. What are your plot points? What is this plot? What is this beat? How does this beat build to this? What is your inciting incident to this thing? To crossing the threshold to the Boone? And they're mixing all this jargon from all of it's youngian, it's Joseph Campbell. It's like all this stuff. It's very hard to even wrap your head around. And I'm egotistically. I consider myself to be a pretty intelligent person who's capable of learning. And very often when I started studying screenwriting, I was just beating my head against the wall because it's like I don't even understand what subtext is, and you're telling me to use it, but no one's teaching how to use subtext, which you talk about, but it's that. Yeah, it's the story. It's story, story, story. And then the plot is, to me, it is the painting of the story. It's what makes the story matter.Michael Jamin:Well, I watched a movie the other day and there was plenty of plot. Things were moving along, things were clipping, things were happening, but the whole time I'm like, so what? Who cares? Why do I, this is so who cares? And so the story is really the who cares part. Why shouldPhil Hudson:Write that down? WriteMichael Jamin:That down. Yeah, write that down. It's the who cares. It's what to me as the viewer or the listener or the reader, it's all the same. Why do I care what happens to the main character? And if you don't, I won't say it on camera, I won't say which one it was, but it was a big movie, big budget, big director who's done some great stuff. You shouldPhil Hudson:Just text me so I know what itMichael Jamin:Is. I'll tell you later, but I was like, who cares? Why do I care about any of this?Phil Hudson:Yeah. Dave Crossman, who is pretty active in the course we've talked about before. He has said that I have a coined phrase now when I read someone's script. It's a lot of things happen, a lot of people doing things and nothing's happening.Michael Jamin:Okay, yeah,Phil Hudson:That's good. Lots of stuff. JustMichael Jamin:Plot is so boring.Phil Hudson:Cool. Yeah. Alright. David Campbell, how do we determine which contestants, which content to reveal in what order?Michael Jamin:Oh yeah. I have a whole analogy that I go through in one of my free webinars about the order in which you unpack the details of your story is really important, and that's what I teach in the course. But for sure, yeah, a lot of times you'll read new writers and they just do a dump. They just dump everything out. But that's not how you tell a story. The story is like you as the author, you get to decide when your reader learns this, and that's how you keep people turning the page.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I have bought a lot of self-published books from friends and people I went to film school with and some are good and some are like, wow, what you just put in a chapter could have been a whole book and you ended this chapter in a place that makes zero sense. And it's because of the way they're laying out the story. They have so much they want to say they're just rushing through it or they have so little they want to say it's dragging on. And to me, I think that's what we're talking about, story structure. If you understand structure, then the artistic way you unfold that sort of unravel that story is your craft and your voice and that the person who comes to mind for me is Guy Richie. I think Guy Richie does that masterfully in his stories.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I'm working on a story right now, which I'm writing, and there's one of two ways I want to write it. And so I'm not sure which way I'm supposed to do it, but I'll choose one and I'll go down that path and if I find it halfway through, it doesn't work, I'll go back and do the other way.Phil Hudson:So you're saying you're not married to the words you wrote. They're not precious written in stone and can never be changed.Michael Jamin:No. It's all about, yeah, exactly. I've tossed out so many stories that weren't working, but I am always thinking about what's the best way to compel the reader to turn the page.Phil Hudson:High level note there, guys, write that one down too. WriteMichael Jamin:It down.Phil Hudson:Paul Gomez, seven 90 Should a story center around subject or a character, is there a different approach for each? What I'm hearing with this question is should I focus on theme or character when I write my story?Michael Jamin:Honestly, I think you focus on a character and then theme comes a little bit later, but I've seen some movies, the very interesting setting, very interesting subject matter, very interesting. But because I don't care about what the character wants and I'm not invested in the character, I was very unsatisfied with the movie, even though the subject matter was really interesting.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Previous podcast episode we've done, we talked about basically picking a word. There's a word that's going to color my story then to me is theme. What is the theme of this that might help shape the character that I'm telling to convey that theme, but the character has to matter or it doesn't matter what the theme is.Michael Jamin:Yeah. When my partner and I are writing, often we pretend there's a drinking game. That theme will keep on appearing, and often you'll see a word recurring over and over in a script, and we always will drink, drink, and then when we're done, we go back and change those words. So it's not so obvious we disguise it. But if you're doing it right, that theme will reappear many times and throughout your script, but you just have to hide it a little better.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. Good stuff. Guys. I know some of you are advanced enough to know how much gold Michael's just dumping his pockets right now. Just gold nuggets. For those of you who are newer, this is worth re-listening to so that you can pick up that gold. This is stuff that will shape you, and I would come back and listen to this one six months from now because you're going to be a different place as a writer at different things. I've definitely seen that even just listening to our podcast with questions I've asked you. The answer is that I got two years ago apply very differently to me. Now. I'm a father of two kids now I am dealing with all these other different life issues than I was two years ago, and that affects the way I tell my stories and what things I want to talk about.Michael Jamin:And I'm still learning, guys, just, I mean, you're never done learning when you're writing, so I don't know everything. I just pretend toPhil Hudson:More than he gives himself credit for, but he's going to take credit like we talked about, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. Yeah. Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michael jamon.com/and now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about?Phil Hudson:Alright, is that my voice asks the beats? Is that what we are referencing here when we talk about story structure are the beats?Michael Jamin:The question is what? What'sPhil Hudson:The question? Yeah, so the context of this is from the webinar, how to write a great story. And when you're asking the question, what is a story or what is story structure? They're asking, are you referencing beats? Is that what you mean when you say story structure? They'reMichael Jamin:Beats, so they're about seven or eight beats in every story, and it doesn't matter whether you're writing a half hour, an hour and a half feature, whatever that you must hit, in my opinion, in order for a story to feel fulfilling. And so those are the beats I talk about. And one is at the bottom of act one, bottom of act two, these are all important beats and I teach that. But yeah, and there's still some creativity you can have. Well, a lot of creativity you can have once those beats.Phil Hudson:I want to highlight something because I know you don't read any of the other advice that people are giving. And again, a lot of these people are not riders. In my intro to storytelling class, which is writing 1 0 1 in college, my professor asked this question, how many beats, beats are in this thing? And he'd have us watch a movie and count the number of beats. And then he put up this image on the board and it was 40 beats. And he says that every feature should have about 40 beats. Now, that's the difference between sequences and beats, and you already can tell this is again very confusing, right? But this is the formulaic approach that is very confusing and shackling to people who are starting out and what you're saying, I don't want people to misconstrue what you're saying by saying there should only be eight moments in a script or eight scenes, but he was describing scenes as beats and how you progress through things. And that comes from a book, and I can't remember which book, but it lays that out.Michael Jamin:That's just too many. How are you going to keep all that in your head? I feel like eight is manageable. Eight not eight scenes, but eight moments that you have to hit. And then it just like when you go from A to B2C to D, you can take a little side trip from A to B, but you still got to get to B.Phil Hudson:Yeah. And I think that USC and UCLA, I think they use what they call eight beat story structure, which mirrors pretty close to what you teach, but you'd expect that because they're proper film schools taught by professional writers, directors, producers, editors who are just doing that now because they've moved out of their first career. So yeah, I just want to make sure people are not misconstruing the two or conflating 'em. NRS creates How can a series pilot with more than eight main characters work without story overload?Michael Jamin:You wouldn't want to have that many go back and watch some of these old pilots or any pilot even towards whatever season five or eight. They may introduce a lot of new characters, but in the pilot, how many characters were in the pilot? And if it's a sitcom, you're talking probably five or six. It's if an hour long, you're going to have a few more. You might be eight, but you should be able to service eight characters in an hour long story. So it shouldn't be a problem. It's when you start growing the cast, it gets more complicated.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I think lost is a great example of this. Tons of people, plane crash, there's mayhem happening all around you, and we're looking at four or five people. And then as the series goes along, they introduce more people and the stories become more complex and there's side things happening. But in the pilot, which is two hours, I think JJ Abrams and Damon Lindelof did that masterfully.Michael Jamin:Yeah, great pilot.Phil Hudson:Richard Monroy, life, death Rebirth. These themes are found in art. How can this be applied to screenwriting?Michael Jamin:Well, I mean, what else are you going to write about when you're going to write about all events that happen to you in life? Jealousy, anger, love, betrayal, vengeance, whatever. That's what you're going to write about. So you're going to you life mirrors art and art mirrors life.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I think that ties back to our theme as well, right? You pick your theme and then that's the thing you're deciding to talk about, and then your characters and the story and the plot all play to paint that picture. Yeah. David Campbell, another question here. Do you have to write a log line for every episode or story?Michael Jamin:Yes. One of the things, when my partner and I run a TV show, what we make all the writers do, including ourselves, is we write after the story is broken on the whiteboard and one writer is chosen or a team is chosen to write that script, the first thing they got to do is write what we call a book report, which is a one page summary of what we just discussed in the writer's room for past week. And this is not as easy as it looks. We need to make sure everyone's on the, were you paying attention? Did you understand what we finally agreed to? And at the top of that book report, we make them write a log line. What is it about? What is this episode about? And it's amazing how that one simple thing can really, really be beneficial. I never assume anyone understands what it's about.And sometimes I tell a story that a couple of years ago, I think it was on Tacoma, my partner and I were writing an episode, we're writing the outline and we're figuring out these scenes. We start arguing over what the scene should be. And I was like, I'm right. And he's like, he's right. And I'm like, wait a minute, what do you think the story's about? And we didn't agree on what the story was about. We literally didn't agree. So we stopped and went back to the whiteboard to figure out what the story was about. Even though we had spent a week working on it, we couldn't agree.Phil Hudson:Yeah, that's how much it matters. I don't know that there's anything to add to that. That's great. Henry Wind, as an audience member, I'm really trying to catch the details and the dialogue so I can understand what is happening in this scene between two actors. How do you deepen subtext?Michael Jamin:Well, characters often don't say what they're actually thinking. And so that's the difference between writing directly and writing indirectly. And again, I talk about this in the course to greater detail, but writing directly is, I'm really mad at you. You hurt my feelings. The other day when you said this about that's writing directly, writing indirectly might be just me ignoring you or me telling you that your hat is stupid. So you know what I'm saying? Who cares about your hat? I'm really mad about you for what you did. And so that's the difference. And the more indirect you can write your writing, the better the smarter it seems.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's amazing how this is human nature though. Just last night, my daughter, she just turned three, and so she's throwing a little bit of the terrible three tantrums. I've heard terrible twos, but it's really the threes is what every parent says. And she wanted to do something and we said, no, it's time for bed. And so her lovey, her stuffy Is Cob the Cow? And she's like, I don't want cob in my bed. And my wife who's wonderful, says, just because you're mad at us doesn't mean you should take it out on other people. And she said, okay. And then she cuddled her little stuffed animal, but it's human nature to do this. She didn't say, I'm mad at you. She's like, I don't want COB in here. I don't want to sing songs. I don't want to read a book. She's mad atMichael Jamin:Me. She's writing indirectly. She's a writer.Phil Hudson:Yep. She's human nature. The beautiful things you learn from kids, man. All right. Moving on to breaking in the Broken Breaking Seas. That's an apt name. Can you talk about working with a writing partner a bit? I'm very curious what that process is like.Michael Jamin:Well, it's sort of a marriage and you get to decide who you want to marry. I've been working with my partner Seaver for close to 30 years. And at this point there's a lot of trust and there's a lot of, we try to argue as little as possible. The truth is I don't really care if it's his idea or my idea. I really don't. If it's his idea, great. That's one less idea I have to come up with. It's not about my ego and it's really about what's best for the work. And then great. I mean, it helps to have one, it helps have one bounce idea. We can bounce ideas off each other and often he'll shoot down my idea, say whatever. I don't really care. It's really about getting the work done.Phil Hudson:We did a whole episode about writing with partners on the podcast, so go check that out as well.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Alright, moving on to miscellaneous questions. We got about 10 left, Michael, does that sound good? Sure. We hit those in the next 17 minutes and wrap this up in an hour. Sounds great. Lisa J. Robinson, for a beginning writer, what program do you recommend to write a script that is very user-friendly? Imagine thatMichael Jamin:RightPhil Hudson:In my mouth. Didn't even know, didn't even know Michael. This question in October would serving today. SoMichael Jamin:Every single television show, movie, everything I've sold, every single one of them have been written in a program called Final Draft. And that is considered to be the industry standard now. So it's the best as far as I'm concerned. Now. They offered me a brand deal a couple months ago, and so I've since done some spots for them and I had no problem doing it because it's not like it's a product that I have. I use the product, so Sure.Phil Hudson:And you've turned down so many deals from people with different writing software. Even when we first started doing this, people were reaching out. It's like, Hey, we'd love to pay you to talk about our screenwriting software, and you turn them all down.Michael Jamin:No. So thisPhil Hudson:Is a bigMichael Jamin:Deal, but if you want to use Final Draft, we do have, they gave me a brand deal, so if get on my newsletter, we said, well, there'll be a link on my newsletter and you can click on that link and you can get a discount 25% off on finalPhil Hudson:Draft. Do you want to give them the code? Do you want toMichael Jamin:Give the I think so we could do the code. Yeah.Phil Hudson:It's M jamming 25 I think, right?Michael Jamin:24 I think.Phil Hudson:Correct. For it's 24 M jamming 24, but it gives you 25% off your purchase. And I used it and it worked on my upgrade from vinyl draft 12. So you saved me 25 bucks on something I was going to buy anyway.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you can upgrade. You can upgrade at some point you have to continue, you got to upgrade your, so it doesn't fall out of surface andPhil Hudson:And there's new stuff that come in. There's all kinds of stuff that comesMichael Jamin:That, yeah, there's bells and whistles, but honestly I've been using Final draft since final draft five. They don't update it every day, every couple of years they improve it.Phil Hudson:We used a final draft for the collaboration mode in the writer's room.Michael Jamin:The collaboration is a good feature.Phil Hudson:And while I was doing this yesterday, this is totally unprompted, I was looking for this. You sent me a bunch of stuff and in 2016, just as I was going to move out here, you were asking me for my resume, like, Hey, there's somebody out here who was interested in getting your resume. And I sent it over and you told me in here, and I'm trying to find the exact words, but it was basically study final draft and know it like the back of your hand. And that was 2016, so that you've been preaching this for a long time.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it helps to know that program. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Great. Alright, Mimi, how to find the main idea from a lot of ideas you have in your book. So I'm assuming she's writing a book and she wants to know what the main idea. Yeah,Michael Jamin:You better figure that out because your story needs to be about one thing everyone wants to throw in the kitchen sink. And it's about this, but it's also about this, but it also has elements of this. It's like, no, no, no, you don't know what your story is. You got a hot mess. You can't kitchen sink it. Your story's about one thing. And if you think it's about two things, congratulations. Now you have a sequel or you have another episode, but your story's about one thing. And if you think I'm making it up, read stories that you've enjoyed and ask yourself the same question. What is this about?Phil Hudson:What's the difference between an A plot B plot C plot though, if it's only about one thing,Michael Jamin:Right? So an APL will occupy two or three characters, and that's a story that has the most emotional weight, and that's the one that has the most time on screen. YouPhil Hudson:Have, it's usually the leads too though, right? It's your main character.Michael Jamin:But if you have five leads on your show, then two of them will be in the A story. And then you have to occupy your other characters. So you give them a B story and maybe a C story if you still have to occupy some of them. But they don't carry as much emotional weight often they're just lighter.Phil Hudson:You don't want 'em sitting in their trailers cashing a check, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah, you got to pay these people. The audience wants to see them too. So you want to give the audience what they want.Phil Hudson:Great mental pictures. Love to know an example of a log line on a whiteboard in the writer's room.Michael Jamin:So a log line might be, okay, we wrote an episode called Fire Choir, and I think the log line was Eddie joins a malePhil Hudson:Choir acapella group. It was like firefighters, acapella choirMichael Jamin:To basically recapture the lost fame of his youth. It was something like that. So you knew what the plot was and you also knew what the story was. Oh, he's there to recapture his law. He was famous, whatever. He was in a garage band when he was a kid, and here's the chance to feel like a star again. So that's what it's really about. It's about the fame partPhil Hudson:And a great episode with one of our favorite characters. Wolf BoykinsMichael Jamin:Wolf. Yes. So played by Paul Soder.Phil Hudson:Paul Soder says, hi, by the way. Oh, you should have him on the podcast.Michael Jamin:I should. I'll get him on. That's a good question. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Richard Monroy, can you describe this Greta Gerwig style in more detail? It seems more unstructured and organic.Michael Jamin:It's not unstructured, it's just the fact that it's definitely not unstructured. It's just that how she comes about finding the structure. So I believe she still hits the same eight points that I'm talking about, but whereas in TV or even in movies, for the most part, you'll think about this before you're ever writing a word. You're figuring out what those story points are. And you might spend weeks or months if it's a movie before you're actually writing. But she doesn't do it that way. But she's Greta Gerwig until you become her, you may want to rethink how you do this, but what she does is she starts writing, oh, I think this is what it's about. And she starts typing the script and she'll say the same thing. I've heard her talk about it. Alright, now I have an 800 page script. Well, we can't shoot an 800 page script. Now she has to go back and throw out 700 pages and figure out what the story is. So it's very inefficient, but it's organic. But again, she can do it. She knows what story is. And by the way, that movie made a billion dollars. It's not for me to say that she's doing it wrong, she's doing it right. It's just that it's just inefficient. And unless you really have a good grasp upon what story structure is like she does, you're probably going to screw it up.Phil Hudson:This just popped into my mind, one of the best tiktoks I've ever seen was this story. And you've seen 'em before. And it's like everyone told me that I was a loser and I would never make it as an artist. And over the years I've practiced and honed my craft and it shows all these different art. You see their art evolving year over year, and now here I am and look what I've done. And then they show the worst drawing of a horse you've ever seen. And it brought me to tears because mocking this thing, which is the reality, is you can't be a one year in rider or a four year in rider and think that you can write the way someone's been running for 20 years will, you also can't do it, but think you're going to paint or draw the way in one year or two years. The way that Picasso or Van Gogh or anybody else has done who's devoted their life to that craft. It's effectively, I'm hearing you say, is she's earned the right to do things her way and it shows in the box office, and that is not an excuse for you to do it that way, and that's not to say you won't do it that way, but you have to learn structure and process and all of those things form light balance. You have to learn those things before you can make artMichael Jamin:And it's not easy for her. I saw an interview where she was saying, look, every time I sit down, I'm like, I don't know how to do this it, you're starting from scratch. I feel the same way. It's like, ah, I don't really know how to do this. I do, but I still feel like I don't, it's hard.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Yep. I saw that interview too. And that's going back to what we talked about earlier. That's the discipline. It's hard, but she sits down and does it and then she's able to get billion box officeMichael Jamin:And sometimes I'm writing, I'm like, am I saying too much or am I saying too little? Am I taking my audience? Am I insulting their intelligence by saying too much or am I taking their intelligence for granted? That's a hard question.Phil Hudson:Yeah. EG wants to know what if the notes you receive from the higher ups make the story worse?Michael Jamin:Often it does. Your goal is to try to give them what they want without making the story too much worse. And what can I tell you? Sometimes they're not writers so often that's the give and take. Often you'll argue with them, you're almost never going to win the argument, and so you have to give them what they want. They're the buyer. And so sometimes people say, sometimes it makes it better too, but people often say, why does TV suck? Well, there's a lot of people involved and a lot of people have opinions and they all want to be heard. I've worked with actors who've had notes who make the story worse. What are you going to do? That's the job. It's it's life.Phil Hudson:I've talked about this documentary before, but showrunners, which you can find it in a bunch of places, they talk about an interview, a pretty well known actor. I'm blanking on his name, but he talks about how at a certain point, the first year, the showrunner, it's the showrunner story. The second year, it's the showrunner story, the third year, it's kind of a balance between the actors and the showrunner, and then the fourth, it's kind of the actors because they are the characters. And his whole opinion here was, I think famously he got an argument and a heated battle with the showrunner who created the show, and the showrunner got fired because he was the star of the show. And he said, it's my job to protect my character because that's me and who I'm playing. And I was like, yeah, that's just the reality of this. It's none of it's yours.Michael Jamin:You can't, the funny thing is, yeah, the showrunner hires all the actors. It's their show. They sold it, they created it, but at some point, if there's an argument between the actor, the star and the showrunner, you can always get a new showrunner. The star is on camera, and so the star is going to win that fight nine times out of 10.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Pretty interesting. Go check that out guys. Yeah. Richard Roy asks, if you're an independent writer, do you ever reveal what you're working on in early stages?Michael Jamin:Some people tell you no. I mean, some people will say, don't reveal your dreams to anybody because people will tell you how stupid it is for you to dream. So why keep it to yourself? That's a personal choice whether you want to share it or not.Phil Hudson:Yeah. My opinion is screw the haters.Michael Jamin:Screw the haters. But also, I mean, you can also put it out there and maybe they hold you accountable. Well, now that I went on record saying I'm going to do this, I better do itPhil Hudson:For a lot of people, a lot of people, that's some strong accountability saying, I'm going to do something. Eagle Boy, 7 1 0 9 0. How strict should we expect prospective studios to be about the page length of a historical drama limited series? I've seen some episode ones that are nearly 80 pages for an hour long show.Michael Jamin:Listen, the question is who do you think you are? I mean, when you write your script, your script is a writing sample and that's it. Stop thinking about what I'm going to sell it for, how much money I'm going to make. Some people ask me, how much money can you make as a first? Now you're spending the money. Your job first is to write a great script. That's it. One episode. Don't worry about episode 12, writing that one first. Great script is damn hard enough. And it's a calling card. And it's a writing sample. So some of these questions are for people like me, this is a question I might ask a fellow showrunner. I might ask them that question because we are doing, this is stuff that we have to worry about, but you don't have to worry about this.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Big note there too, that this is the big takeaway I've gotten from doing this work with you over the podcast is everything is a writing sample. If it sells, great. If it's good enough to sell, great. But right now, I need to be good enough to give me a job.Michael Jamin:Yeah, get me a job.Phil Hudson:Yep. Matt Sharpe, with the changes to TV writing rooms during the pandemic, do you see Zoom rooms still being a thing post the WGA strike? More to the point, do you still have to live in LA to write in tv?Michael Jamin:A lot of these rooms are still on Zoom. That's probably going to go the way at some point. I don't know. Maybe it's going to get back in person probably sooner than later, but someone made that point. I was going to do a TikTok on social media. What are you talking about? Everything's on Zoom. Okay. But how do you get the job? How do you get the job so that you can be on a show that's on Zoom. Tell me how you do that. Unless you live in la, there's no answer for that because you have to live in la. Sorry. There's a handful of screenwriters who work mostly in features who get to live other places. Maybe they have to fly to LA or maybe they live in New York. I follow Julia York from New York. She lives in York or Yorks, but she's in New York and she's able to make a living out of it somehow, but it's definitely harder. You made a hard career. You're making a hard career. Harder.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Tacoma FD is now streaming on Netflix, so everybody go watchMichael Jamin:That. Go watch thatPhil Hudson:Talk. Tacoma fd, which is the companion podcast that Kevin and Steve the showrunners do that dropped. And in episode four, I actually was in the cold open and I got put in the cold open. They talk about it on Sarco fna. It was very kind of them to mock me a little bit and poke fun. But what they said is basically what you have said to me all along is if you want to make it in Hollywood, you have to be in LA because they need you Now. It's not two a week from now. And evidence of this is I got cast in the cold open because the actor tested positive for Covid that day. And they said, well, this is a guy protesting pornography, and Phil is a religious dude. Let's get him out here. And then they were like, he came out and he gave this tirade of just Christian anti pornographic stuff. It's like he'd rehearsed it, you could tell. And it was like I'd done acting classes with Jill and with Cynthia. I've done prep work. I've been on set. I've seen how it's done, and I was just able to go and perform in this moment because of all of that prep work. And I only got it because I was on set standing next to the showrunner when he heard that this guy got covid.Michael Jamin:So two things, half of life is about showing up and two, but also being prepared for yourPhil Hudson:Could imagine, because you could have choked shot the bed. Imagine you could choked shot the bed. And to be fair, I'd been in three other things. I'd been on Tacoma twice as background with no lines, and then they put me on the spot and made me the butt of a joke in the movie quasi. And that was not something I knew about, but they shot three other people just in case, and they picked the funniest person. I just happened to be the funniest person. So had I not done that, I would've not been given this hat back. But they called me in and I pinch hit and I swung and they said I nailed it. Right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. It was funny. I was there. I got a huge laugh at the premiere. You'rePhil Hudson:Scene. So yeah, I had no idea. But the point I'm trying to make is you have to be here and then that's how that stuff comes. If you're not, look, it's not going to happen.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Aaron Vaughn Busick looking to develop my understanding of the process of landing the ending of a limited series.Michael Jamin:Wait a minute, hold on. You mean you got a show picked up to series and you want to know how to wrap it up? Is that what the question is?Phil Hudson:I think the question is, I'm writing a limited series and I'm going to write the whole thing and I don't know how to end it.Michael Jamin:Don't worry about it. Can you write a great pilot? And then when they bring it to series, they'll hire people like me and we'll figure it out in the room. Don't worry about it. You're not selling your limited series, you're writing a writing sample.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I think, again, go back and listen to it. I think it was episode 32 or 34 fractals, which we've talked about recently where you talk about how this all kind of mirrors things and then learn story structure and man, I can't imagine writing something without knowing the ending. That seems incrediblyMichael Jamin:Painful, but that's four years. I dunno how long his series is, but I wouldn't know how to end it.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Rick Bean, I've been watching Star Trek, Voyager Lost in Space, et cetera. I do stories that take place in space get leniency because they take place in space.Michael Jamin:I don't think so. If it's boring, it's boring. What difference? When these chefs take face in space, it just means the set is a spaceship, right? So what if it was a boat? Same thing. Is it that much of a difference? No. IsPhil Hudson:Hamlet on the Holodeck? This is a required book from one of my digital media classes, and it talks about basically the future of narrative in cyberspace, and it's basically just saying it's a medium. The story still has to be there. It's Hamlet on the holodeck. It's not whatever on the holodeck.Michael Jamin:Yeah. SoPhil Hudson:Story, story, story, story. Richard Monroy. Again, a lot of movies and TV shows are based on franchises and ips that want to sell product. Is it the screenwriter's job to include ad placement in the script?Michael Jamin:No, and I disagree that I disagree with that contention. I've never worked on a show where we got a note where, Hey, we're selling products. That's never, no,Phil Hudson:That's a production thing. It's after. It's like I've seen it in the production office where it's like, okay, the call just came in transpo picking up some Acura's, and we got to feature those in this week's episode because the sales guys in the corporate side are doingMichael Jamin:That fine. Throw in the background. I don't think about it at all. And Barbie, when that movie Mattel, to their great credit, I bet they saw a lot of Barbies after that, but it was never an infomercial for Barbie. I mean, Greta Gerber got to write it her way, and much of it was anti Barbie.Phil Hudson:Well, that's a whole thing going on right now. They came out with women in cinema film and TV Barbie set, and now a bunch of people are like, Hey, you missed the mark here, Barbie, you missed the mark.Michael Jamin:I mean, they're always going to try to figure out ways to make money, but to me it's never about the product placement. It's always about the story. And if they want to find, you want to throw Pepsi in the background, I don't care.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Fire department coffee is one of those sponsors we have on the show and because it fits in the firehouse and that's who they're selling to, our firefighters who watched the show, and that's something that was worked out well after. We're not writing episodes about fire department coffee. Right, Rob?Michael Jamin:Because that's not entertaining people. People are not going to be entertaining. People would turn off the show if that were the case.Phil Hudson:Yep, yep. And you see it too. I see it a lot on broadcast TV where it's like, oh, we have to use this feature in the new Toyota to get to where we're going. And it's like, look at us talk and the camera sweeps there and it's so distracting.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you're not fooling anybody, so no,Phil Hudson:It's like we know what's going on. As you've always said, we got to sell more toilet paper.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I jokingly say that. Yeah, we're here to sell toilet paper, but we don't literally have toilet paper on their show.Phil Hudson:Rob Gully, how does David Mamet tell a good story when most of his plays are just people talking?Michael Jamin:Well, but it's not just people talking, it's things happening. But anytime you have a stage play, it's not just people talking. Things have to happen. Things have to develop. A character walks on with new information, changes a dynamic. It's not just people talking and that's the problem that people mistake. They think it's just people talking.Phil Hudson:I've got his bio over here that I read, and it's worth checking out if you think that's what's going. Yeah, you gotMichael Jamin:A good library over there.Phil Hudson:It's not, yeah, I'm a hoarder. I think that's the problem. Thanks dad. Dad gave me those tendencies. Yeah, as Jim, I would say money in the bank, right?Michael Jamin:Money in the bank.Phil Hudson:My trauma. My trauma is my money. I lots of checks. Yeah, my hoarding tendencies for my fatherMichael Jamin:For sure.Phil Hudson:Is there a percentage to follow for dialogue or scene description while writing a script? What percentage should be what?Michael Jamin:Well just know that no one likes reading action lines. No one. People often glance over that. I've heard. It's so funny, I happen to just catch another screenwriter say the same exact thing. No one wants to read it. So that's why if you write your script and you could describe a card chase, okay, no one read it because the dialogue is what you want to read. So on paper, it's going to be really boring if you focus on that. If you're going to shoot your movie or your short or whatever, fine. Do it any way you want to do it, but just know you're, if you want it as a writing sample, no one's going to be impressed with your action lines. No one's going to read it.Phil Hudson:Anyone who's ever done pros before and is getting into screenwriting, which is me, you start off by describing the room and what's in the room. It's almost like a DD Dungeon master, so unnecessary. It's more confusing. It's the brevity of your style is what will help with this. And that's why I said you need to understand the craft. You need to understand structure, but you need to understand your format andMichael Jamin:Your style. I literally keep action lines like that as short as possible. When we're writing, if we have four words, we try to get it down to three. I mean, because it's literally shorter as better. No one wants to read it.Phil Hudson:You don't want big blocks of text. And I think Drive is a great script to check out. He barely talksMichael Jamin:In it,Phil Hudson:But masterfully done, but he wrote it, directed it. He did the whole thing. It was effectively he was being paid to make his own short film because he'd earned it in the age of streaming. The last question, by the way, just Mason May in the age of streaming and new media, how has the new WGA deal changed the writer's room process?Michael Jamin:I don't think it's changed the writer's room process, but there's some minimums in place in terms of the staff size and the staff makeup in the term, the employment terms. But we'll see how that unfolds. I haven't been on a show since the strike ended, so we'll see literally what that means. But yeah, too soon to say.Phil Hudson:Awesome. Michael, anything you want to add to that one? It's a pretty robust long q and a.Michael Jamin:Thank you. Yeah, it was. Thank you all for all the questions. Please keep coming to those webinars. You'll get a lot out of it. And thank you for listening.Phil Hudson:Michael, anything we want to talk about coming up with the book coming up?Michael Jamin:We got stuff coming up. Phil, my book is dropping very soon, a paper orchestra. I don't know when this episode's going to air may already be out. No, probably not. Probably not. But it's coming to soon. If you want to learn more about my book, go to michael jamin.com/book and sign up and it'll be a great read. It's called The Paper Orchestra, and we're going to do a whole podcast episode. We're going to talk about that coming up next, I think.Phil Hudson:Yep. So we've got that. You've got your course, which we've talked [email protected] slash course. You've got your free lesson, michael jamin.com/free. You've got your webinars, which people can sign up for at michael jamin.com/webinar. You only need to sign up once. We'll continue to invite you to them as long as you want to stay on that list. That's all it's used for. Yeah. Anything else you can think of?Michael Jamin:That's it. Get on my newsletter. Lots of good stuff on the newsletter. Michael jamon.com/newsletter. Just go to my website, poke around. There's a lot of free stuff. There's a lot of really good stuff there. Phil built the website so we have him to thank for it.Phil Hudson:Yeah, me for any problems you have. And then I think hashtag twirly girl on this post. Just if we want to hear, if people want to know about seeing those videos on there, I thinkMichael Jamin:That'd be helpful. Yeah, maybe we'll slap up a special page for my commercial work.Phil Hudson:I think it's worth doing. People need to see you do this because you tell people to do it. Yeah, that's a good idea. Well, Michael, thank you so much.Michael Jamin:Thank you, Phil, for more, what do we sayPhil Hudson:For more like subscribe,Michael Jamin:But also, I dunno, keep writing. KeepPhil Hudson:Writing everything. Keep writing. That's what we want you to do. KeepMichael Jamin:Writing. Okay. Thanks everyone.So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin ISS talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly [email protected] slash webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media at Michael Jamin writer. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media at Phil a Hudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/screenwriters-need-to-hear-this/exclusive-content