Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #121: Interview with Chris Schiafone, MA Student, Department of Psychology, York University https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-11-03-2026/ In this eye-opening episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes Chris Schiafone, who recently joined the revived board of Barrier-Free Canada as a director, to walk listeners through what he calls a journey through lived experience: growing up with low vision and extreme light sensitivity, learning to type at three or four and to read braille while he could still see, and losing the rest of his usable sight after high school. Chris explains how remembering what things look like lets him picture the spokes of a wheel or the shape of a pear, why students born blind need a deeper explanation and something to explore by touch, and how one neuroscience professor had his class build a neuron out of candy so that he could learn it by touch, alongside other low-cost materials such as string, clay, pipe cleaners and stencils. Chris and Donna also talk about the 2019 forum in Halifax where Chris and his brother Brandon told faculty from across the country that nothing is impossible when professors and blind students are willing to work with each other. Chris, now a master's student in psychology, describes his work in the Centre for Vision Research and the Virtual Reality and Perception Laboratory on learning through the sense of touch, a tactile drawing board from the American Printing House for the Blind and a recent online deafblind conference, while Donna compares his stencils with the cookie cutters she uses in her pottery and asks him to find out whether that professor would come on the show and to help out with Barrier-Free Canada. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, and MBA invites you to listen to her bi-weekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate, and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch, and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, an accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster, who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November of 2010, I won the landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Everything I do circles one goal, and that is to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench, where policy meets lived experience, and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. And before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. I am very pleased and privileged to welcome Chris. And I hope I'm getting your last name pronounced correctly. Schiafone? Chris Schiafone: Schiafone. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, Schiafone. Okay. Sorry about that. Welcome, Chris. We've known each other for a few years, and I am delighted to share with our listeners that you have recently joined the revived board of Barrier-Free Canada as a director. So welcome, and let's going. All right. Chris, welcome to the Remarkable World Commentary. Chris Schiafone: Thank you so much for having me. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're very welcome. You once said that if you wrote a book about your life, you would call it, quote, A Journey Through Lived Experience, unquote. The story of someone who starts out with low vision and ends up totally blind. For listeners meeting you for the first time, would you walk us through that journey, sharing as much as you are comfortable with? Chris Schiafone: Sure. No problem. So from a very young age, I did have low vision, due to a condition that I have. I had extreme light sensitivity, so I wore dark glasses all the time. Got a lot of comments about, "Hey, cool shades, man," and all that sort of thing without people knowing exactly what the issue was. That's okay. As a kid, you kind of look at them like, "Sorry, dude, if you actually understood this." [laughs] But no, nonetheless, I grew up being able to read large print, doing mathematics using extremely large textbooks. So I would go back and forth between large print and closed-circuit television for reading. Because we never knew the future of my eye condition and what was going to happen, my parents began to teach me how to type at around the age of three or four years old. As you could imagine, a kid at that age does not want to sit at a keyboard going A-S-D-F-G-H-J-K, A-A-A. And I hated it. But what I can say about that is as time went on, I learnt, of course, how to write using bold markers. That's what I had to use because regular pens did not work for me. I also needed bold-lined paper because the regular lined paper that everyone else uses, the lines were too light and they were hard for me to see. So I had to use that. In high school I used a combination again of large print and closed-circuit television with regular textbook, but in a lot of case, regular textbook. I always preferred to have my reading material with inverted colors, so white letters on a black background. I found that reduced the glare both on the computer and on the closed-circuit television, and I was more comfortable doing things that way. Now we'll transition from vision to no vision. Shortly after I finished high school, I started having some issues that we didn't really know about. There was a couple of times where I woke up and was fine when I laid down, but then woke up and couldn't see for a bit. And the first time it happened, I remember being extremely nervous because I thought, "Oh, no. That's it. My vision's gone." That happened not to be the case. And so over time my vision changed to the point where it is right now, which is light perception vision. I don't have anything usable anymore. I can't use the closed-circuit television or anything like that. But I will tell you, the skills that I learnt as a child, how to type. I learnt braille before I lost my vision, both grade one and grade two braille. I know it's changed now to UEB braille, so what I learnt back then may not be totally relevant, but things have changed. But nonetheless, there wasn't a ton of transition when I actually lost the remainder of my vision. I think it was more frustration because it was things that I could do before that were so much easier, like glance down on a sheet of paper, as opposed to having to go figure it out on the computer or having to go ask somebody for help with something. I think that was a frustration more than me having to actually adapt to, okay, I didn't know braille. I can only imagine if I didn't know braille, I didn't know how to type, and I didn't have all those kinds of skills to bring with me, we'll say, into the transition from partial vision to total vision loss. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I can understand what you're telling me because I was born with little to none, got a whole whack when I was a teenager through a cornea transplant. I learnt to read and write and do all kinds of things, and then I lost it about 15 to 20 years ago, through a retinal detachment. So I still believe in my braille. Braille saved me when I finally lost most of my vision. A lot of people, I don't know, they still don't think that there's a place for braille, but I do. I do. So I understand what you're telling our listeners. Chris Schiafone: Yeah. And I think a lot of it is to do with technological advancements and people's backgrounds. If they've never learnt braille before, they never enjoyed to learn braille, or maybe they were even forced to learn braille, there's a whole host now of different technologies. For example, audiobooks, Audible, electronic books and different kinds of systems. And unfortunately, I hate to say it, but a lot of the platforms are very different. So what you might find on Audible you wouldn't find, let's say, on something like Bookshelf or VitalSource, which is a professional kind of platform where you can go buy textbooks and things like that. So not everything is the same across the board, but where the technology has gone, I've seen many people say, the technology is there and maybe they perhaps don't feel that they need braille. But looking back at it now, all the frustrations, all the I didn't wanna do it, all why are you making me learn this? I'm very grateful to my parents for having me do this. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right. So you have said that you feel very fortunate to remember what things look like, so that if someone describes the spokes of a wheel or the shape of a pear, you can picture it. How do those visual memories help you learn today, and what do you think that students who were born blind need that may be different? Chris Schiafone: That is a very, very loaded question, but a very interesting one. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Sorry. [laughs] Chris Schiafone: It's okay. No problem actually. So in my opinion, when you have grown up to even have some vision and you are shown different items... You referred to the spokes of the wheel or the shape of a pear. That is one of many, many, many things that we could use as examples. These are kinds of things that we would pick up visually, we can pick up tactfully. We get to know them over time as we grow up because we see what they look like. Oftentimes those who have a lot of vision may not, or have full vision may not, appreciate or understand or pay attention to certain things, like for example, the shape of what a pear might be or an apple or a tree branch or something like that. But for those who have vision loss, those are very important details. And so now that I've lost my vision, I find that a lot of those types of things come by way of visualization. So because I could see it before, I could sort of draw a picture in my mind of what it would look like if you said to me, "I have a bicycle wheel in my hand." Now, again, spokes of a wheel come in different shapes and sizes and all that sort of thing. But generally speaking, I have the concept because I have been able to see them and I've been able to trace them tactfully. For someone who is born without sight, I feel like there has to be a much deeper experience of explanation and a tactile experience for them to actually be able to learn what something means. If I say to you, for example, "This is a C-shaped structure." And when I say C here, I'm referring to the letter C. If you've never seen what the letter C is shaped like, or you've never been able to haptically explore through touch the letter C as a stencil or as anything else, what would me saying to you a C-shaped structure actually mean? Where would that leave you? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think for someone who was born with no vision, it means nothing. For me personally, I had vision before I lost it now. So, like you, whenever you say anything, I can picture it in my mind. But I know that my music teacher once said to me, he said, he called me DJ. He said, "DJ, I don't even know what the sun looks like." Chris Schiafone: And see, that's a very good example right there of someone who's never... And I mean, we're not gonna take him to touch the sun. That one there, that one— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We can't do that. [laughs] Chris Schiafone: That one there would rely on very heavily described information. And if somebody could somehow make a tactile version of what the sun looks like and allow him to explore it, then perhaps he can build a bit of a visualization of what the sun is like or what is represented by the sun. And that's the difference between having some vision, even if you don't have full vision, and having no vision. That you can have adaptations if you have even limited vision. I'll give you another example quickly. At the baseball game, I used to go to baseball games when I was young. And even though I couldn't see what was happening, we could take binoculars, and I could look through the binoculars and watch what was going on on the field. I also could listen auditorily to hear when the bat hit the ball. So right there you have two examples of things that I was able to do as a sighted person. But actually the binoculars as a sighted person I could do. The sound of the hitting of the ball was something that I could hear. So I actually didn't need to see that. It would be helpful to see where it went when they hit the ball. But nonetheless, you can tell that the bat made contact with the ball. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That reminds me of when I used to go to hockey games in Montreal, and I could see the players going up and down the ice. I could see them skating. I could see the puck. I could see the stick through binoculars, right? So now, whenever I, up for a game, I can visualize it. So I am—not empathize, but I understand where you're coming from. Yeah. Chris Schiafone: And I'm sure at the hockey game, the sound of the sticks are a good cue to you as to where the players are collecting for the puck. So there's many auditory cues that I'll say can... I'm not gonna say can fully replace the visual part of it, but there's certain things that we learn over time, going from sight to no sight or going from description to sound, if we never had vision. That we can learn the relationships of these things. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think we have a lot in common. I see where you're coming from. All right. You have pointed out that a scientific textbook averages about 11 images for every 1,000 words. Tell us, what was it like to study psychology, statistics, and neuroscience as a totally blind student, and which barriers surprised you the most? Chris Schiafone: Oh, you hit a very interesting topic here. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Another one, eh? [laughs] Chris Schiafone: [laughs] It's okay. It keeps the whole thing interesting, so I'm someone who likes to learn, and I will sometimes pick stuff that's a little more challenging because I like to think that we cannot be told that we can't do something until we at least try. It is easy for you to say, "Oh, I can't do that because of whichever reason," because the textbook is full of diagrammatic properties. Or it's easy for someone to say to us, "Oh, I don't think you can do that because it's very challenging. There's a lot of visual images." But the reality of that is I haven't tried yet. I know it's easy to make assumption based on not having vision. But there are so many things out there today that could assist with such things if people are willing and able to work with us. And we are willing to work with them. So some of the barriers that I faced in these courses were, for example, data collection information that were then translated into what they call data visualization, where there's charts, graphs, and diagrams that outlined results from research papers. Or that resulted from stuff that the professor had done, and they were using them as a learning tool. Oftentimes for that I had sighted help to assist me with that, so that's kinda how I got through that portion of it. Unfortunately, in some cases, we have wonderful technology out there for people with vision loss, very helpful stuff, makes us independent. Sometimes, though, we need to still ask for assistance, and we shouldn't be afraid to ask for assistance. It's just the reality of it. It doesn't mean that we can't do it. It just means that we need to find another way to do it. And part of that has to be our own thought process, our own ideas, or... And sometimes it has to be a collective effort on the part of yourself and your faculty or your boss or whoever it is you're trying to work this problem out with. Is there anything more specific that you wanna know about that? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I'm just very intrigued because I think what you're saying, to me, makes sense. It's a team effort between you and those helping you, or me and those helping me. And you find workarounds to things. It may not be perfect, but it's enough to get you going, right? Chris Schiafone: Yep. And the other thing is too is looking at what kind of tools are available in your toolbox for you to be able to use. You mentioned about neuroscience. One of the things that I have here that I use is a 3D brain model. And it's in multiple parts. And I could take it apart and feel different components of the brain or different structures of the brain. And actually, the example I gave you earlier about a C-shaped structure, that was a realistic example from a neuroscience textbook. It was describing the corpus callosum, which is the area that goes between the left and the right hemispheres. Basically, that's how your brain is connected. And so when they described it in the textbook, they said a C-shaped structure. And when I thought about this, I'm thinking, so as someone who's been sighted before and lost his vision later in life, I totally know what you mean. I can take this model, open it up, find the C-shaped structure, and say, "Oh, there it is." For someone who's never had sight, that's a problem. So this is kind of where my work on this all started. And where it kinda came down to that number of 11.1 images or every thousand words or so was actually part of my undergraduate thesis work. And that's when I really started taking a look at this and saying, "Okay, how can we represent this information to people that are totally blind that choose to learn it?" Because they should be able to. Just like anybody else, they wanna learn different things, and just because it's challenging doesn't mean that they shouldn't learn or can't learn or should be told that they should go do something else because this is too complicated. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's a very interesting opinion, and I do agree. I mean, no reason why they shouldn't learn. They just have to use a different approach, right? Okay. I understand that one of your neuroscience professors had your class build a model of a neuron out of candy so that you could learn it by touch. Why do simple, low-cost ideas like that matter so much? And what are other everyday materials have you seen turn a picture into something that a blind student can truly understand? Chris Schiafone: So the story about the neuron, the candy neuron pictures is kind of interesting. I had a very, I'll say wonderful neuroscience professor in undergrad. She did everything she possibly could to make sure I was included in the class and that things were as adapted to me as possible. As part of this, she was trying to teach us the structure, like the anatomical structure of the neuron. And knowing that I couldn't see it, and us not having three-dimensional models available at the moment that I could observe, she decided to turn that into a class activity where we took craft supplies basically and candy, just like little candies like that you'd buy at the bulk food store or whatever the case. And the task was to come up with a raised line graphic made from candy that represented a neuron that I could feel as she had the information up on the board for the sighted students. So we were all doing this as a team, and it was all a learning process, but basically what she did was she had the information, her slides and stuff up on the board, and she gave us a practical activity that I could do that really was, I guess, so that I can learn. But as I'm learning as I go through my research and we talk about people learning differently, she probably helped more than just me in that class. So it was a very fruitful activity to undertake. It was a lot of fun, 'cause we were trying to sit here with Nerds candies and trying to figure out how to make neurons and different things like that. So it was quite interesting. As far as other low-cost items like you're talking about, that's a good question, because a lot of anatomical models can be very expensive, especially depending on the level of detail. I did one session, during the pandemic actually, where people just found things around their house, whether it be string, whether it be, oh, I don't recall. Paper, construction paper, whatever it is, stuff that they had around the house. And there was instructions sent out to them, and we got together on Zoom in a group and we had them basically make this model out of household items. Unfortunately again, that was during the pandemic. But one thing that the person who was heading the workshop did, and she was at the time a person training for her master's in inclusive design. She had each person describe to me what they used and how they made their neuron based on the picture that they were given, because I wouldn't be able to see it on the screen, right? Again. So she got them thinking about a couple of things there. Number one, how could we use low-cost home like things, regular things that we have at home to take and, maybe even stuff that would've been thrown in the garbage, and use them for assistance in learning. In this case it was the neuron, but it could have been many other things also that they could have done with it. Other things are things that you can maybe buy from, I would say like a Michaels art supply store or something. So if you can get some clay, some pipe cleaners, some wooden dowel type of things. Depending on what it is you're trying to make, those are lower cost items that as long as you have a good idea of what it is that you're trying to put together, you could potentially do that and use it as a tactile means for someone who has vision loss. Especially if it's something that is a timely project. In other words, the lecture's in three days and you need to get something. I mean, the models are by far the best, because they're as realistic as possible. But again, the models are very high cost. There is time with manufacturing them. Sometimes the models come from Germany. There's a company in Germany that makes anatomical models. They're very good. But that means then that they have to manufacture it and they have to send it to Canada, to the company that's here, and then you purchase them, and then it goes from there. So, in a nutshell, that's kind of how this process has worked in my experience. Other people might have other ideas, but this has been my experience. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: As a potter, and I've been doing pottery for quite a few years now, I use cookie cutters as part of my models. I also use dishes, bowls, and salad plates and everything to make my own pottery. So I think there's similarities here that I think I understand. Yeah. Chris Schiafone: Well, one of the things that I'm gonna be exploring with soon here is I bought a tactile drawing board. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Ah. Is that the BrailleDoodle? Chris Schiafone: No. Well, what this is is it's a device that you buy through... The only place I've seen it is the American Printing House for the Blind. And it is essentially a board that has a felt kind of piece in the middle of it. And it comes with a special paper, and you clip the paper into the board so that it stays put. And it comes with a stylus that looks exactly like a pen. And you can draw on this, and then what happens is when you draw on it, it comes up as a raised line graphic. So then what I did was I went out and purchased a number of—actually from Amazon, they have a kit with shape stencils. All different shapes, all different sizes. And I'm gonna explore doing 2D shapes and 3D shapes. 2D shapes using the drawing kit and 3D, possibly with a 3D printer or some other device to do that. So that's another way of doing it that I'm looking to explore. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So in essence you have a drawing kit from the American Printing House for the Blind. And then you went on Amazon and you bought yourself a kit of stencils. Very interesting. No, I mean it. Because see, what I do, I go on Amazon and I purchase cookie cutters in the shapes of what I want. Right now I am developing a Canadiana line of things. Like, you have dishes with maple leaves, you have dishes with, or pieces with different Canadiana things like a beaver, a snow goose. Things like that. So this is very interesting. Very interesting. Chris Schiafone: And see, the cookie cutters, when you look at a cookie cutter versus a stencil, they probably would interact together differently haptically while you're doing these tasks because the stencils are just sort of plastic with the shapes of different sizes cutting out of them. There's not much in between the top of the stencil and the paper line. Whereas with a cookie cutter, a lot of times they're a little bit thicker. They're a little bit higher off. So you sort of have a different kind of... You have the edge on the paper. But it's also higher off the paper at the top, and the manipulation of whatever tool, whether it's a paintbrush or the stylus or whatever that you're trying, the manipulation of that tool is gonna be different because of the tool that you're using to trace the shapes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I work with clay, so then it's a different medium that I'm working in. Chris Schiafone: One day I will have you teach me. [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Oh, you will have to teach me, too. [laughs] Chris Schiafone: Well, there you go. We all learn together, right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yes. Why not? All right. So you and your brother, Brandon, who is also blind, have presented together, including a 2019 forum in Halifax on understanding the needs of disabled students. What has it meant to share this path with a sibling, and what did you most want faculty from across the country to take away from that session? Chris Schiafone: So I'll start with the first part of the question. To present with a sibling was very interesting. He and I have lots of conversations about different kinds of topics, whether it be stuff to do with accessibility, whether it be stuff to do with education. We have very different interests, but we can have very similar discussions, if that makes sense. And it was great to be able to have the two of us work there, and that whole setup was thanks to my department head of psychology in my undergrad and his faculty where he was training at the time. It was my first presentation nationally. It was his first presentation nationally. My department head of psychology at the time was extremely supportive of my work. He totally understood what it was I wanted to do. He was into teaching me about how to write abstracts and do things. And, as I may talk about later, I'm at the point now where I'm not just writing those abstracts, I'm actually reviewing those abstracts. So, but back to 2019, that was our first shot. We drove across the country from Toronto to Nova Scotia. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Keep it up. Chris Schiafone: Thanks to my father, by the way. He is the one that drove. I wouldn't drive. I don't think that'd be a good idea if I drove. What do you think? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't think so, no. I would be off the street. If I knew you were coming down the street, I'd be gone. Chris Schiafone: I'd love it, but I don't think that'd be a good idea, so we— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, not right now. Chris Schiafone: We all packed up and off we went. And the day that we arrived, we were the first presentation the next morning. So we had to make sure that we made it on time, which, with really good planning, it's no problem, but you just kinda hope that along the way all is good. So at the time what we were looking to do was... And this kind of goes off of what I said earlier about people working with us and doing things in different ways and learning. Really, our message to the faculty across the country was quite simple, is that, yes, there are challenges. Yes, you may have never, ever worked with a blind student before. But as long as you're willing to work with us, and we're willing to work with you, nothing is impossible. And that was the message that we were trying to deliver. We were giving examples of ways that people can work, how... Tell them about how we read textbooks with screen readers. Educating them on alternative text for images. Really outlining the challenges that we face as students who are blind trying to learn topics that had very high level of visual material. And that was basically what we were there to do. We were there to sort of build a space to give people the opportunity to ask us questions if they're feeling uncomfortable about anything, and to really understand that when we're in the class, it's gonna be challenging, but it's also an opportunity to sort of embrace a difference. And the faculty member we were talking about earlier that had us making the candy neurons was a beautiful example of that. She thought of that all herself. That wasn't me saying anything. She saw what my challenges were. She knew what my challenges were. She knew what she had to teach. She knew what my challenge was going to be with that. And when she walked up to me with a bag of candy and said, "We're gonna be making neurons," I'm like, "What? What are you—" Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What are you talking about, right? Chris Schiafone: Yeah, like, "What are you doing here?" Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Where are you coming from, candy? Chris Schiafone: Yeah. But that was very ambitious. It was all her idea. We didn't talk it out. We didn't do anything. And that, to me, is an example of a faculty member who really wants to make sure that I'm included in the class, understands my challenges, and wants me to be successful. And just— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We need more people like that. Chris Schiafone: Just as a side note, she's been so supportive of everything, right up to the point of me now being a graduate student. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'd like to interview this lady. I mean it. Bring her on, please. I mean, we need more people like this lady, who is not afraid to go out there and explore the world with someone like us. Chris Schiafone: Yep, and she was definitely willing to do that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You think she would be interested in an interview? Chris Schiafone: Oh, I could have a chat with her. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Please. So the clock is starting to wind down, and I mentioned at the beginning that I'm awfully privileged to have you join the board of Barrier-Free Canada. Tell us, Chris, what's in your cards for the immediate future? What are you thinking of? Where are you going? Chris Schiafone: With Barrier-Free Canada, you're asking? Sorry. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: With anything. Tell us. Besides the bag of candy. Where are you going? Tell our listeners what you have up your sleeve for the immediate, say, next three to five years. Tell us. Chris Schiafone: Well, currently right now I'm working on my master's degree in psychology. Brain, Behavior and Cognitive Science is my specialization. I'm also working in the Centre for Vision Research, which I know you thought was rather interesting. Again, I have been very privileged to find a professor who works in—our lab is called the Virtual Reality and Perception Laboratory. And he, again, has been completely instrumental in ensuring that I get in there and get the opportunity to do what I'm setting out to do, and that things are set in place so that I could study there just like my other colleagues. So I've been set out on that path again. I'm now in my second year. I just started. I don't know yet, but possibly PhD. But my work all centers around accessibility. Giving people who have vision loss and different learning needs the opportunity to have a different avenue to learning. So that not everything is just pick up the textbook and read. Or we expect you to know this, or go find the alt text, or whatever the case. My goal is to be able to have people be able to learn science, whether it be brain science or whatever the case, in a way that works for them. And a lot of that stems off to different things. I'm starting to learn about what's called the cutaneous pathway, the sense of touch and how that works and how touch is translated from the time we put our finger on something to the time that it's processed in the brain. I'm learning a lot about vision stuff. Some of it may be stuff that is outside of my realm of what I do, but nonetheless, life is a learning journey. And just because you set out on doing one thing or two things, that could be your focus, but that doesn't mean that's the only thing you're gonna learn. And that's my thing, to always continue learning. You will never stop learning. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, no. Nobody would. Yeah. Chris Schiafone: But having access to the materials and to the things that you need to have that learning opportunity is the conversation here. How can I have a 3D-printed model or a 3D-printed shape and be able to match that with a two-dimensional shape? What does that mean? What does that look like? How do you understand it? What works for you? If you're a person who has a condition where your sense of touch is impacted, what do we need to do so that you can be successful in the world of touch? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very true. Chris Schiafone: And there's a lot of conversation these days about the senses. The sense of vision is, of course, very, very highly looked at. It's been studied for years. It's still being studied, and they say that it's probably the one sense that people will use the most. But the sense of touch is becoming now more of an area of study. It's definitely not as big as vision, but we're starting to learn that there's different things that are picked up through our sense of touch that are either enhanced or do not get picked up in the sense of vision, as our sight. So that's kind of what I'm working on for now. That's what I'm hoping to keep working on, 'cause I'm very interested in this. There is an international group of people that work on this. I just attended the UK deafblind conference, which was a conference that happened online, and most of it was working with people who are deafblind. Lots of stuff about the sense of touch, lots of stuff about policy, and I got to learn differences even between here and the UK in the way that they have stuff set up for deafblind people, and it's very encouraging. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: This has been a very, very interesting interview for me personally, an eye-opener in many ways. It's causing me to really sit back and think, how do I function, and how have I been able to function? And I urge you to stay in that field, but I also urge you to help out with Barrier-Free Canada. So you have two things I'm tasking you with. So I look forward to hearing whether your professor would want to be an interviewee, and I look forward to working with you. I think it's going to be very, very interesting. Chris Schiafone: Sounds great. I look forward to it also, and I think collectively, we could work together and make something really great happen. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. So Chris Schiafone, am I pronouncing it there? Chris Schiafone: There you go. You're good. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Schiafone. Like, not Skyyphone, Schiafone. Chris Schiafone: No, no. Hey, you should listen how screen readers pronounce it. They all pronounce it differently, and it's all wrong. [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I know. Oh, Lord. Thank you very, very much. I really— Chris Schiafone: Thank you also. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, and we will be in touch again soon. Chris Schiafone: Thank you. All the best to you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Thanks, Chris. Take care now. Chris Schiafone: Bye now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye-bye. Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #120: Interview with Hayley Xie, Founder, Tactile Map Accessibility Project https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-10-29-2026/ In this inspiring episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes Hayley Xie, a 15-year-old blind advocate from the UK who runs a podcast, an accessibility campaign and a youth magazine, and whom Donna calls probably her youngest guest yet. Hayley explains that she was born sighted, that with her condition, Stargardt's, her sight can never become zero, and that she wants sighted people to understand that blindness has a range: "Blindness is not always darkness. It is sometimes nothing." She describes her podcast, Beyond Vision, which she started so people can learn about blind lives without having to ask, and guests such as Lord David Blunkett and Daniel Kish, whose words that independence is also a form of freedom she now carries into her own presentations. Hayley then tells the story behind her Tactile Map Accessibility Project: at a residential camp, when she was about 10, she pulled a rope in a disabled toilet out of curiosity and set off the emergency alarm. Her maps show where everything in a toilet is, the emergency cord included, with braille labels and a QR code that plays an audio guide, and she gives the design and toolkit away for free. She says her petition has reached around 1,044 signatures, that her school was the first to have the maps made, and that she plans to approach Surrey County Council. Donna closes by inviting Hayley to join the team behind her Believing is Achieving camps for young people. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, and MBA invites you to listen to her bi-weekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate, and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch, and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, an accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster, who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November of 2010, I won the landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Everything I do circles one goal, and that is to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench, where policy meets lived experience, and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. I am pleased and privileged and extremely excited to welcome to our show today probably the youngest guest that I have had thus far. Hayley Xie, welcome to my show. Hayley: Donna, it's such an honor to be invited by you. Thank you for having me. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you for being here. And you know what? When we had our interview last Tuesday, I said to myself, "This is our future, and if we could get 10 other people like you with your enthusiasm, your excitement, and your commitment, our future is in great hands." Hayley: You're very kind. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] All right. Hayley, welcome to the Remarkable World Commentary. At just 15 years old, you are already running a podcast, an accessibility campaign, and a youth magazine. And for listeners meeting you for the first time, who is Hayley, and how would you describe the work that you do? Hayley: Well, I am 15 years old, and I am legally blind. I am an avid accessibility advocate for the visually impaired people, and I want to campaign for greater accessibility and independence and just confidence, as well as raising more awareness for the blind community and the visually impaired community. I am also an avid reader of Jane Austen. Absolutely love her books. And I am somewhat of a untalented musician, shall we say. Where I play the piano somewhat and the violin, and I love singing, although I'm not quite sure how much my neighbors like to hear me sing. Hayley: How to describe myself and my work, it would be, I started my work due to mainly curiosity, and some would say I'm a bit too ambitious and just stubborn. I'm very stubborn, and when people say that it is quite the ambition to start a magazine, I think about it and I think, "Well, why don't we try?" The internet is amazing now. You can reach people from all around the world. As I'm talking to you from the UK now, and you're in Canada. And so you can always make, for example, a magazine international. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What do your parents say to you about all of this? Hayley: I think initially, my parents and I never expected, or at least I don't think they expected, I definitely didn't expect myself to start a magazine, run a podcast, start Accessibly campaigns. I have always been really outspoken. Too talkative sometimes. Gets me in a bit of trouble. Gets me in a bit of trouble, seriously. My parents, they're very supportive. They're very supportive. Hayley: They are the people telling me to go out there, dream bigger, and they feel that my campaign so far, this journey towards advocacy, meeting other blind people who are so successful, so inspirational, and it teaches me a lot. For this journey I've only started for a few months, but I've definitely gone across a few challenges, uncertainties. So I think they think it's a really good lesson for me to learn outside. It's out of school. It's not academic. And I can learn what I'm doing in the real world. Because I feel like school's very important, but it's very different to what I'm learning right now, aside from school. And I would say some teachers don't know if I'm focusing more on my academic studies or my projects. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, dear. Okay. Nothing wrong with that. No. Hayley: I mean, it's a little bit concerning. [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, in your feature for Narratives Unseen, you wrote a line that has stayed with me, and it is, "Blindness is not always darkness. It is sometimes nothing." Unquote. What did you want sighted readers to understand when you wrote it, and which misconceptions about blindness do you most want to correct? Hayley: Well, firstly, this quote, "Blindness is not always darkness. It is sometimes nothing," resonates with me a lot because I am not completely blind. I did not know about this until I met fellow blind people in my high school that I go to currently. I learned this about five years ago. Because I was born sighted, fully sighted until six. And then I only started using a cane when I was 11. And I fully started using Braille when I was about 10, in the last year of primary school. So I didn't know a lot of things about blindness, and I thought it was darkness as well. Hayley: And until one time we had an inclusivity assembly on disability week. And I decided to represent the disability society, if you call it, in my school. And I read something out in assembly, and one of the things my fellow classmates wrote about was blindness sometimes is nothing instead of darkness. It's, for example, you can't see out of your fingertips. Which is not always understandable, I think. So this is really important to me because I think a lot of the times people think darkness is blindness, blindness is darkness. Whereas sometimes blindness is just nothing. You can't see out of your nose. [laughs] Hayley: What I want sighted readers to understand the most, misconceptions about blindness is—one of the things is that a lot of the time people ask me, "Oh, how did you see that chair?" Because I can see a little bit, as I mentioned. I use a white cane all the time, constantly. Except when I'm at home, [laughs] obviously. And in class I sometimes walk around chairs, or there's a bag on the floor and I manage to lift my foot off the ground. I sometimes see it, sometimes I don't, but sometimes I do. And my classmates are all very shocked. They're like, "How did you see it?" Hayley: I'm saying there are large printers in my school, don't get me wrong. But they think people with a white cane just can't see at all. People with a white cane have lower vision, but sometimes they can still see. Sometimes they can see a chair. Sometimes they can see a foot, so never stick your foot out and trip them over. [laughs] Not that I have experienced that, but it's not always a good idea 'cause they might be able to see a foot and stamp on it. And that would be what I would be tempted to do. [laughs] Hayley: But yeah, I think that's the biggest misconception, that blindness has a range. And for my disease, Stargardt's, it can never become zero. There's a large difference between having no visual perception compared to having a very, very small percentage, like 0.000001. You'll still see a few shadows. So that's the difference really, I think, for misconceptions. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think I will share with you that I was born with very little vision, so I could see certain little things like colors and so, but they were all blurred. And then when I was in my late teens, I had a cornea transplant that changed my world completely. I learned to read and write and do all kinds of things, and my world changed. But then about 15 years ago, I lost most of it, so now I'm almost totally blind, so I think I know what you're telling me here. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So let's talk about your podcast, Beyond Vision. What inspired you to start your own interview show, and what do you hope listeners, blind and sighted alike, would take away from each episode? Hayley: So my podcast, Beyond Vision, began in, I believe, June or July, I cannot remember, and what inspired me to start it was how, over the course of my blindness, especially in the last five years, a lot of people approach me tentatively. I've known them for three or four years, teachers, students, or just people in public that I know, and they all are very careful about asking me how I became blind, what it's like to be blind, how much I can see. They're very tentative about it. I understand that sometimes people don't wanna talk about blindness and how they became blind, because they don't feel comfortable with it. But I feel like the public should be able to learn more about blind experiences. They're often very curious, and they're nervous to ask blind people. So I thought, why not create a podcast where you don't need to ask blind people? Hayley: There is this information out there, and you can just go listen to it yourself. Each person, just as any other person who's not blind, has their own life, has their unique experiences, and you can listen to people with amazing careers, experiences, inspirational advice, lives, on the podcast, and that's what the podcast aims to do, and that's what really inspired me to start the interview shows. And over the course of just a few months of podcasting, I met so many amazing people that I never knew existed. I always knew there were two or three blind people in the world that were incredible, extremely intelligent, quite famous. But until I began my podcast and I started doing lots of research, even yesterday I was talking to my mom, and we were discussing how in the world there are so many opportunities and so many things we don't know about, including blind people with pioneering careers and achievements. Hayley: So for example, I research into all categories, into politics, sports, music, academics, and in your case, I went into law as well. I interviewed you recently. And Lord Blunkett, for example, I had on the show a few months ago. I found his story very inspirational. Before his political career, he had to get his degree by himself. And I just also spoke to Daniel Kish, who created World Access for the Blind. And his accessibility and his way of navigation, and obviously I spoke to you, and I saw how determined you are, dedication, to fighting the accessibility for the websites in the Canadian government. So the podcast hasn't only really raised awareness of blind people and educated the public, it's really educated me as well. And so that's what's driving me towards the journey towards keep going, basically continuing my podcast journey, and I'm very looking forward to what will happen in the future. So yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: If I had a crystal ball, young lady, I would say you are destined for big things. And I mean it, and I'm so impressed with what you've done so far. As in just a few months, you have interviewed guests ranging from fellow teenagers to Lord David Blunkett, the former Home Secretary, and Daniel Kish, the ecological pioneer, if I pronounced that correctly. [laughs] How do you choose your guests, and how did you find the courage to approach people of that stature as a young host? And I will tell you, I don't think I would have had the nerve to do it, but tell us. Hayley: Well, how do I choose my guests? I chose you because you made such an achievement by fighting the court case over a period of more than six years, facing the appeal, facing all the stress of it, and also determination and the gap you saw in the accessibility features in Canada. And so I chose you as one of the guests purely because of that. And how I feel like everyone I've invited onto the podcast so far, one key feature is that they're incredibly resilient. Incredibly resilient. And I really admire each and every one of you that has gone on the podcast. And so as you mentioned just now, Lord Blunkett—he is an amazing politician. He went through 9/11, the Twin Towers, he had to navigate that. Daniel Kish is just incredible. I don't know how he manages. He does tongue clicks, and he echolocates. So he uses sound waves that bounce off surfaces to know where he is. So that is very interesting. Hayley: And I think how I approach them, well, the beauty of technology, although I have to say I'm not very good at using technology, but I can send emails. And the beauty of technology is that I can approach anyone across the world. My podcast, it's gonna feature people from Australia, comedians. It's gonna feature academics, professors from different universities, authors, sports athletes, musicians from all different types of industries. And I approach them because of the admiration of their career, really. And I kind of get the courage. I'm always nervous when I reach out to people, when I'm talking to someone. But when you hear their amazing story, you kind of forget, and you're just in the zone of talking to them in the podcast. So before the recording, I'm just a bit uncertain. I'm like, "Oh, what have I gotten myself into? What did I do? Why did I email them?" Hayley: And then after, when I get to speak to them, they're all very, very nice. You were so nice to me when you spoke to me as well after the recording. And it's really just mainly, you're all very kind, very supportive, even though I understand that when I first began, not that I've begun for very long, but I had minimal credibility, not a lot of credibility, because people didn't really know who I was then. People might think I'm a scam. And so I'm really grateful for people who have believed in a random 15-year-old who's appeared on their email inbox and asks to be interviewed, and they've agreed. And so I find that really encouraging, and that's really what brings me towards emailing the next person and the next one and the next one. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Have you found any barriers to the fact that you are so young, or do you tell people your age? Hayley: Oh, yes. I make sure to tell people my age, because I don't wanna give people surprises. [laughs] Can you imagine? [laughs] If I just appear on the podcast or my Tactile Map Accessibility Project in my presentations, and I'm just a 15-year-old girl, I think that would give them quite a shock. But definitely, as a young campaigner, I look at it through two ways. One way, they're like, oh, it's a youth-led podcast. Maybe they're more reluctant. But another way, I like to be optimistic. I like to believe that maybe they will help me. Like you, you mentioned in my podcast that your campaign is to help the future generation, the children, to do what you are doing right now. And so I'm really grateful, really, to all of them who have believed in me, believed in a 15 years old girl appearing on their email inbox and asking for an interview when they're extremely busy doing their own accessibility campaigns or advocacy work, or they are just their incredible careers. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's true. But like I said, you have impressed me with the way at 15 years old, to have had Daniel Blunkett on your podcast. My God, that is a coup, a real coup, you know? Hayley: Yes. Actually, to this day, I'm not quite sure why he agreed to my podcast. But it is very, very kind of him. It is very kind of him. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And of all the conversations that you have had on Beyond Vision so far, which story or lesson has stayed with you the most? And has any guest changed the way you think about your own future? Hayley: Wow, this is a hard question. All my guests have put me in awe. They have enabled me to see the potential ahead, the missing gap in my journey that I could still fill. There's so much I can do in the future, and they have enabled me to see that. And they're really, all of you on my podcast, stand as role models to me. But I think one of the lessons or thought processes that really resonated with me was Daniel Kish, when he said, "Independence is... There can never be too much accessibility. What is accessibility? Independence is also a form of freedom." And I recently adopted that and taken it to my tactile map presentations when I present to venues from all over the world. And I emphasize to them, the Tactile Map Project is not only a form of accessibility feature, but it is also a form of freedom. Hayley: Being able to navigate a toilet by yourself, I think, is one of the most important things I could wish for, and hopefully what other people would wish for. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's a very good way of looking at it, and I agree with you. I do. I understand your Tactile Map Accessibility Project grew out of a very personal experience in an accessible toilet [laughs] when you accidentally set off the emergency alarm. Please share that story with our listeners, and tell us how it became the spark for your campaign. Hayley: Well, as you mentioned, there's an emergency cord, alarm attached to that story. So when I was about, let me think, when I was about 10 years old or 11, 10 years old, I think, I enrolled in a residential camp, and there was a disabled toilet, and no one described the toilet to me. I mean, I don't really blame them. Before that incident, or indeed until this year, I never realized anyone ever described the toilet to me until my mom told me that she did it every time I went in the toilet. But what happened was I was feeling around, trying to find my way around. And I felt a thin piece of rope and being curious, or maybe I don't wanna be curious sometimes now, but I pulled on it. I was like, "What will it do? What will it do?" Like, "Come on, let's try it out." Hayley: [laughs] And then nothing happened, which was very odd, so I moved along. I was like, "Okay, nothing happened. Sure." And then two minutes later, I heard banging on the door. They were like, "Hayley, Hayley, what's wrong? What's wrong?" They were all panicking, and everyone was at my door, and I was like, "What's happened? What's happened?" I was like, "What?" And then apparently they told me to never mind and asked if I was all right, and then afterwards, apparently the entire common room, so about 30 kids in the common room, could hear the alarm going off from my bathroom. But I couldn't hear it from my bathroom. I don't know why. But that led me to be very embarrassed, and I thought, why don't you change an embarrassment to something more, maybe more practical. Change it somehow. Hayley: I only started the tactile map recently, and that was five years ago, but between the five years, I've also experienced other times where I didn't know where the flush was. So I want to find the flush in the toilet, not even an accessible toilet, just a toilet, because not all venues have accessible toilets. And I try to find it, and I end up hitting my cheekbone and getting a bruise or getting hurt or just saying, "Ouch," really loud, which is really awkward. And you don't always wanna feel around because it's not very nice, and you don't know where the flush is. I always ask myself, is it a sensor? Well, is it a push? Is it a lever? Where do I push? Which way does it go? Where's the toilet paper? Which one is the dryer? And also, where is the sink? Because now that technology has improved, you can never find where anything is, because everything's hidden, and you just scan it. I can't scan if I can't see it. So, yeah, that's the story. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, I'll tell you, a few months ago I was in the UK, and I was in a train station with my aunt, and I wanted to go to the bathroom, and I did, but like you, I felt this rope. I went, "What the hell is this? Is this the flusher? Is it... What the..." So I pulled it. And the next thing you know, banging at my door, "Are you okay? Are you okay?" And then the guy was just laughing. He said, "I had a feeling that you would pull that because you wanted to know what it was." So, I mean, join the club, you know? Hayley: Yeah, I've heard of other people's stories where they don't know, two buttons side by side, which one's the flush. They push one of them, off it went. And also recently, I was talking to someone actually yesterday, and they were talking about how one time they were entering an airport, and both of them were blind. They have a staff member with them. And the staff member sent them into an accessible changing room without a toilet. But the staff member didn't know, and each of them went in by themself. They couldn't find a toilet, and they came back out. Wouldn't tell anyone, so the other friend went back in a changing room. Couldn't find a toilet and came back out, and so they had to hold it, and they never told the staff 'cause they were too embarrassed. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, dear. That's not good. Now, for listeners who have never come across one, what exactly is a tactile toilet map, and how does a blind person use it before stepping into the room? Hayley: So a tactile map is a design where there are labels in braille and tactile lines showing where the door is. There's a opening gap where the toilet is, and where the dryer is. Where is the toilet paper? Where is the sink? Where is the soap? Where is the flush, obviously, and what kind of flush it is, and most importantly, I made sure to include where the emergency cord is. And the thing is, before I started this campaign, I didn't know that every single bathroom had a emergency cord in it. I didn't even really think about if there was an emergency cord in it. I think it's more of a truth that is not spoken, but known. But sighted people don't always realize, because blind people sometimes don't know some of the most obvious things in daily life, such as an emergency cord existing in a accessible toilet. Well, certainly I wouldn't have exactly thought about it, and if I needed to push that thing, I wouldn't know where it was, what it looked like, or what happens if—I don't know what I would have done if I don't know where the emergency cord was. So that is essentially what a tactile map is. Hayley: But recently, I have also developed an additional thing on my website, which is adding an audio guide. So as well as tactile map, it's in a QR code. And because I promote my tactile maps mainly to public venues like museums, zoos, theaters from all around the world, tourists come, and they speak different languages. So audio guides can give different languages. And also, not everyone knows how to read braille. Some people have deteriorating sight later in life, and audio guides might help them. Some people can't read braille, audio guides might help them. Or you can read braille with a tactile map and the audio guide at the same time. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think that's a great idea. I never even thought of that, but yeah. Yes. Now, here in Canada, our transportation regulator has fined several major airports for failing to provide tactile and braille signage to the areas that guide dogs users need. So your work resonates far beyond the UK. What would you say to building managers, airports, and businesses anywhere in the world who believe that a small accessibility fix is not worth the effort? Hayley: I think this is certainly a very important question you've asked, and I thank you for asking. One thing I've found is, my own philosophy is that I don't think anyone doesn't think accessibility is worth the effort. I think everyone at heart are very kind, and they all seek to be more inclusive. Very encouraging to me, at least, when I speak to the venues. I've had very positive feedback. In terms of if they would be reluctant, I think, well, if you're reluctant, be nosy. Because if other venues have, let's say, my tactile map, and you look around at other venues, you'll see how it works. And if then you're interested, feel free to come. I could talk to you, and we can work stuff out from there. Be nosy, I always think. If other people have accessibility features, stay open-minded. Hayley: But the problem with open-mindedness is that you won't know if you're not open-minded, if you're absent-minded, because you don't know yourself. And so my theory is just be nosy. Just look around at other people. Look at fellow airports. Look at fellow venues, and see what they're doing. [laughs] Catch up with the latest. Even though if you're not planning to do it, you can always be nosy, and just look around. Keep on the latest. Accessibility is never not worth it. It is merely a question of time. Hayley: Sometimes venues have other things to prioritize. But certainly, I would really appreciate it if they would, when they have the time, reach out to me, which a lot of venues have said that they are quite busy right now, but would love to talk in half a year time. And they have set dates, they have set committee times where they would discuss it later this year or next year. And this really means a lot, because it doesn't mean they're not thinking it's worth it. It's merely that they're very busy with other accessibility features that are maybe equally important. But they're also keeping an open mind, keeping a open eye, and making sure that they are kept to the latest accessibility features. What I have found with Canada so far is that they are very, very encouraging to me. They have been very inclusive. I have a couple of venues I'm going to be speaking to and presenting to in Canada. So I think in Canada, it's quite inclusive. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that comment. [laughs] Now, you have chosen to give your design, fitting guidance, and toolkit away for free. And your petition even tells supporters that you are not asking for donations. Why was it so important to you that anyone, anywhere can use your work without cost of permission? Hayley: So ever since I can remember, I am only 15, but ever since I can remember, I've always been really inclined towards charitable works. And I never knew what I could do to actually contribute. Yes, I make donations to different venues, or I ask my parents to make donations, really. [laughs] But I never thought, "What could I actively do to contribute, to make a more positive impact in society, in the world?" And I never knew that, but apparently I've been told that I've always been a strong advocate for myself when it comes to inadequate support or accessibility, I think much to the annoyance of everyone else. Hayley: And so [laughs] what I think is important is that my work is nonprofit. It's to help the accessibility features. It's to help the blind and visually impaired community. I'm not here to sell anything. I'm here merely to provide an idea, and hope that through my efforts I can encourage more venues to install tactile maps or audio guides to their toilet facilities. And I hope that increases independence, freedom, help along the way for accessibility, and I'm really very excited to see where that will go in a couple of years' time. Because I see amazing feedback right now, and I'm really excited to see what will happen in the next week, the next month, the next year, in five years, in 10 years. I want to see how this project will go. It's not about monetizing it. My petition is to garner support, to raise awareness, and money has never really gone into the topic. I am providing venues with ideas, and I'm gonna be really grateful to them if they take it on. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You don't get too many young people of your age, and I'm not going to stress that your age. [laughs] But too many youngsters don't think that way, and this is something I really wish that we could see more of, you know? People thinking, "I'm not in it for the money." But then again, someone is gonna say to us, "Well, I need the money," right? So it's a balance there. I know for me, I've always been one to give. I think it's important. As long as I'm able to give, I will give. Because it's the only way that I think we can build our future in a better way. Right? Hayley: Yes, and I think that is really important as well. That's kind of what is bringing me towards what I'm doing right now, like podcasting and my Tactile Map Project, where people are giving in the time for me to interview them to show other people and myself their own inspirational careers, their admirable personalities and characteristics and traits, their dedication. And it's really kind of them to respond to me, and to respond to me to talk about their experiences, and it's nonprofit as well. My podcast is nonprofit. And it is really towards helping and making a more positive contribution to society, and that's what my aim is. Hayley: And if anyone ever approaches me with a nonprofit initiative, I think I would love to have a look at it and definitely see what we could do to move it on forwards. Because every day when I wake up, it's really my incentive to wake up now to look at my emails. Otherwise I'll be staying in bed because it's too cold. To look at my emails and see who's emailed me, who's agreed to my podcast. And in the evening before bed, I look at my phone and I see emails and emails from people, and I'm like, it makes my day. It absolutely makes my day. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Your petition has been closing in on its first goal of 1,000 signatures, and your next step is to take it to your school's leadership, to the Surrey County Council. What has it been like to campaign for change as a teenager, and what would success look like for you over the coming year? Hayley: Well, I checked today. We have reached around 1,000 and, let me think, 44 signatures, which I'm very pleased with. I'm very grateful for all the support everyone's giving out. People I've emailed, venues I've emailed, all signed my petition, showing their support. In terms of school, my school has been the first venue, if you call it, to manufacturing my tactile maps. They were the first to help me at really the push towards... I had this idea. They were the final push to manufacturing two tactile maps for my school, because we have two accessibility toilets. And I'm very grateful to them because some of my teachers at school are absolutely amazing. They brought me to the Rotary Club to give a speech there, which is also featured on my website, https://tactilemapproject.org, where I spoke about my project and garnered everyone's support, and they were very kind about it. They asked me questions, and it's just helping me build this confidence and network of people I can reach out to. Hayley: So in terms of school, I think it's going the right way. They are looking always to improve the accessibility features, because I go to a visually impaired unit. My school has a visually impaired unit in it, so we have about 12 young people in there who are partially sighted or blind or large printers and braillists. And in terms of Surrey County Council, I'm definitely looking at emailing them about this project, seeing if we can get some installed in town centers, shopping centers, theaters nearby. And I think Surrey has always been a very inclusive society. We're very close, all of us. And so I think that will go in a very correct direction, very right direction, positive direction really. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm going to close this interview with an offer I'd like to make to you. I've been working on a project called Believing is Achieving, and what it is, it is hosting camps for kids who are about ready to leave high school and those who are entering the workplace for the first time. And I say to them, "Believing is achieving. If you cannot believe, you cannot achieve. And in order to believe, you have to start off with a dream, a desire, an aspiration, something like that, right?" Once you have that in your mind, your dream, your aspiration, your belief, your desire, we can go to the next point, but you can't go there unless this first block is met. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The next thing is to help them develop their independence, because independence is freedom, and their confidence, and then I will show them how to build virtues that will enhance their personal and professional profiles. And finally, I will help them to discover the pitfalls that they should avoid. This camp, Believing is Achieving, has legs. When I say legs, I mean it has potential. And the first thing that we're gonna be doing is I'm working with the Independent Living Canada organization to host a week... Well, I call it a weekend camp, but it'll be more than a weekend, in Quebec next year. I'd like to invite you to be a part of our team when we are a bit further ahead. You never know if such a camp could take off in the UK. I don't see why it cannot take off anywhere. If you're interested, let me know, and I'll send you more information. Hayley: Well, firstly, I think it's such a good initiative really, and I'm sure it will take off anywhere you put it because it's such a good—it's so important really right now. I certainly know some charities I'm in contact with who talk to the young people who are looking to go into work or move on from high school, and I'm sure people in the United Kingdom would be very interested to contribute and come and join. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. So in the coming weeks, I will set something up for you. Now, which is the best time to catch you? 'Cause you'll be five hours ahead of me as of next week. [laughs] Hayley: Yes. Well, I am mostly free on weekends. I sleep at 11. And let me think. Oh, well, I've got school. That's the problem. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, we could do it on a weekend. I mean, I'm very, very flexible. Hayley: If you don't mind working on a weekend. [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I don't. I work on the weekend all the time, so. Hayley: Well, that's brilliant. Yes. Well, how does this work? Is it online? Is it... I mean, the actual camp. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It could be anything. The one that we're holding in Quebec, or we want to hold next year in Quebec, will be at a camp resort. It'll be over a few days. It'll be face to face. But I've also developed workshops and stuff like that, workshops online, virtual workshops and sessions online. Hayley: But do you know approximately what month it is in? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm not sure when we are going to have this next year, but I should know in the coming weeks when exactly. We're hoping to have it from a Wednesday to a Sunday. Hayley: Okay. Yes, because I've got my GCSEs exams, which are big exams and national exams. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: In June? Hayley: May and June. So I might be able to come in July or August. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. You are gonna go on to A levels, yes? Hayley: Definitely. Definitely. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right on. Okay, so I will keep this in mind. I'd like to talk to you more about this in the coming weeks if you're okay. I could set something up. Hayley: Of course. It would be an absolute pleasure. Thank you for thinking about that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, I can't begin to tell you, Hayley, how impressed I am. My God, at your... When I was your age, well, it was a different era then, but my gosh. Oh, I don't know what to say. [laughs] I'm so pleased to have met you, and we will work together. Promise you that. Hayley: Well, I'm really looking forward to it. You are a role model right now for me, and will always be really with the incredible work you've done, and I'm absolutely flattered to be working with you if it happens with that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I will make it happen, and I will set something up for us in the coming... One Saturday, I think, on the weekend. I don't know which weekend. I have to look at it. Hayley: You know what? I've got a calendar. I can send it over, and you can pick whenever you like. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Send it over to me, and I'll pick it. Hayley: Okay. It would just be the podcast calendar, but you can ignore the title. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, so we'll just have a plain old Zoom conversation. Hayley: Yeah, of course. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right? Hayley: All right then. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hayley, it was a pleasure, a privilege. Thank you very, very much. You go, girl. Go get 'em. [laughs] Hayley: [laughs] Thank you very much, Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Have a good rest of the day now. Hayley: Bye. I look forward to hearing from you soon. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Thanks, Hayley. Bye-bye. Hayley: Bye. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye. Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Curb to Cabin Canada Episode #2: Interview with Devin Glim, Staff Lawyer, and Patrick Robitaille, Clinic Placement, ARCH Disability Law Centre https://donnajodhan.com/curb-to-cabin-canada-10-28-2026/ In this practical episode of Curb to Cabin Canada, Donna J. Jodhan talks with Devin Glim, a staff lawyer at ARCH Disability Law Centre, and his law student, Patrick Robitaille, about what the law actually gives a passenger with a disability. Devin explains how his organizing with the Disability Justice Network of Ontario led him to Osgoode Hall Law School and ARCH, and why he believes effective change needs both lawyers and organizers, while Patrick describes what a Disability Law Intensive student does on a transportation file. When Donna asks about blind travellers who are met with a wheelchair instead of a sighted guide, Devin calls the Canada Transportation Act and its accessibility regulations a bare minimum of protection, and Patrick says the Canadian Transportation Agency follows the principle of self-determination, so providers must accept a passenger's own assessment of their needs. Patrick adds that airlines and airports cannot escape responsibility by using contractors. Comparing the two main doors for a complaint, Patrick explains why the Canadian Transportation Agency, which has no one-year filing limit, is the proper channel for a travel-related complaint, and Devin says it is really the only option. The guests say human rights law still applies on the smaller regional carriers the regulations do not reach, explain undue hardship and what Air Canada v. Rose means for passengers, and discuss WestJet's 300-pound limit on power wheelchairs and why passengers should give airlines as much notice as possible. Donna challenges the phrase "duty to accommodate," and the conversation closes with how ARCH could raise its profile and with Patrick's experience in Osgoode's clinical programme at ARCH. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Greetings from Toronto, and welcome to Curb to Cabin Canada. What really happens to blind and low-vision passengers when they fly? Your host, Donna J. Jodhan, is a lifelong blind advocate and law graduate whose landmark Charter case in 2010 compelled the Government of Canada to make its websites accessible to all Canadians, not just those with sight. Each episode follows one part of the air travel journey from curb to cabin, and asks the airlines, airports, and agencies a single question: Is this working? Donna serves on accessibility advisory committees in the aviation sector. None of them pays for this programme, and none sees a question before it is asked. Curb to Cabin Canada is presented to you by Donna J. Jodhan, with support from sponsors to be announced. None of our sponsors have any say in what this programme reports. Now, let's dive in with your host, Donna J. Jodhan. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of Curb to Cabin Canada, the podcast where we talk about what really happens when disabled Canadians travel and what it takes to make every step of that journey work. I'm Donna J. Jodhan. I'm blind, I fly, and I know how much can go wrong between the curb and the cabin. Today, I'm here with Devin Glim, a staff lawyer at ARCH Disability Law Centre, and his law student, Patrick Robitaille. In the spirit of full disclosure, ARCH has acted for me personally in the past. Devin and Patrick, welcome to the show. Devin Glim: Yeah, hi there. Patrick Robitaille: Yeah, thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. So Devin, before you went to law school, you were an organizer with the Disability Justice Network of Ontario's Youth Action Council in Hamilton, helping to push for city-funded sidewalk snow clearing and for reform of Ontario's Assistive Devices Program. That's a lot. What carried you from City Hall to delegations to Osgoode Hall Law School and the Disability Law Intensive at ARCH, and what can a lawyer do for disabled people that an organizer cannot do, and the reverse? Tell us. Devin Glim: Thanks, Donna. Yeah, so, at that time, I was in university, and I really just wanted to make a difference in my community. And it was also something that affected me personally as a wheelchair user. And so that kinda started it all. And I found that I liked advocating. I liked helping people. And so that is one of the main reasons that I pursued law at Osgoode Hall. And yeah, coming to ARCH, it just felt like a natural fit for my interests. In terms of what a lawyer can do versus an organizer, I think in order to make effective change, you need both lawyers and organizers. The laws that exist today are often strict, and lawyers have to operate within them. And so there are certain things that a lawyer cannot help with, or cannot pressure politicians to change the laws and things like that, whereas an organizer who may not have the same restrictions on them can lead the community into creating that pressure to affect change. Lawyers can do that as well, but it is often more effective when it's an organizer that is within said community that is seeking that change. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you've done a bit of everything, haven't you? Devin Glim: [laughs] Yeah. Not yet. There's still a little over— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: There's still— Devin Glim: I think— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Still a long way to go, right? [laughs] Devin Glim: Yeah, definitely. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How long have you been with ARCH? Devin Glim: I started with ARCH four years ago. I think three or four years. And as a lawyer, this is my second year. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay. And I think you were Gabriel's student when I had the case against the CBSA. Devin Glim: Yeah, definitely. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. That's right. Devin Glim: I was either an intensive student or, like, our second year. But yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, I remember that. [laughs] So Patrick, you are joining us as a law student working with Devin at ARCH. What drew you to disability rights law? What does a student actually do on a transportation file? And what has surprised you most about how the law treats travellers with disabilities? Patrick Robitaille: Well, Donna, thank you so much. It really is a pleasure to be here. And I have to say, it really is a pleasure to work under Devin. It's an amazing experience here. And I'm really, really grateful for it. So to talk about the three sort of questions you asked me there, like what drew me to disability law, I think in my first year of law school, I took an elder law course, and it had a really big impact on me. It helped me to appreciate that the law operates in ways that can pose challenges for certain people. And when I found out about the Disability Law Intensive programme, I was drawn to it. I wanted to learn how you can address these kinds of challenges head-on from a legal lens. And I guess essentially I wanted to learn how to use my education to make a difference. When you think about in the setting here what a student does on a transportation file, students at ARCH wind up doing a real wide variety of tasks on a file. And a transportation file is no different. So I think what's invaluable about the experience here at ARCH is that students are really in the trenches throughout the life cycle of a file. So you're working directly with clients under the guidance of these experienced lawyers. You get to conduct a real wide range of research to understand all the potential legal issues and their implications. You get to present solutions, even non-legal solutions perhaps, that can best help the client resolve an issue. And ARCH is a really interesting place because the practice here with one-on-one clients ultimately supports— this work ultimately supports the broader disability community across Ontario and beyond. So it's really, really interesting work. And what surprises me most about how the law treats travellers with disabilities, I would say, and this could be true of many of the areas of law I'm exposed to here, is it's the complexity of everything. It's just how different laws have different jurisdictions. In the context of travelling, it could be something applies domestically, but as soon as that aircraft carrier gets outside of domestic borders, there's different standards that apply. And the gaps in these protections between jurisdictions and how disability law as a practice works to sort of fill these gaps for clients and how regulations and laws in this area of law act to sort of provide a bare minimum standard. And the difference sort of between providers being required to provide certain accessibilities versus accommodations that they have to make. So it really is complex and it's really context-specific and I think that's what I enjoy a lot about it, and I think it's definitely what surprises me most about it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I guess there's also the added complexity between provincial and federal laws, you'd say? Patrick Robitaille: Absolutely. Absolutely. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: A lot to deal with. [laughs] Now, as a blind traveller myself, I hear the same story again and again. The passenger asks for help getting through the airport and is met with a wheelchair instead of a sighted guide. Under Canadian law, is a blind passenger entitled to the kind of assistance that they actually need rather than the kind that is easiest to provide? And what can they do when they decline the wheelchair and the help simply disappears? Devin Glim: That is a great question, Donna. I want to start off by saying it's always advisable to let the airport and the airline know well in advance of an alter of your accommodation needs. So with that in mind, within Canada, we essentially, in accordance to Air Canada, we have the Canada Transportation Act. And within that act is the Accessible Transportation for Persons with Disabilities Regulations, or the ATPDR. And so that law and regulations provide protections for people with disabilities who are travelling on a flight, either domestically or internationally. It is only a bare minimum of protection. It does not erase or eliminate any undue human rights law or the duty to accommodate that exist in other pieces of legislation. I think Patrick, you want to add to that? Patrick Robitaille: Yeah, Donna, maybe to speak with sort of what Devin has just set in mind as a lens or some context to this. In regards to your specific question, at an airport a blind passenger may be entitled to the assistance they require rather than what is simply easiest to provide. So the Canadian Transportation Agency, which operates under the act that Devin mentioned, adopts the principle of self-determination. Service providers need to accept a person's own assessment of what their needs are and how to best meet those needs. The provider also has an obligation to communicate with the traveller about this. Additionally, personnel are required to have training in guidance and/or orienting a person with visual impairment. And they have to provide this assistance within the person's preferred method and to the best of their ability. This also comes out of the regulations from the act. So essentially the provider must give way to the request to not be given a wheelchair in this situation. It is, I think, worth noting the regulations do allow a provider to offer meaningful options. But regarding the help disappearing completely when a wheelchair is refused, a service provider is not authorized to provide accommodations in a way that detracts from a person's sense of dignity and confidence. So complete withdrawal of assistance would likely fall into this category. So what can a person do in this situation? I guess as a practical bit, try to find someone who works there, someone… It could be somebody in security, it could be someone from another airline carrier. And explain your situation and the help that you're seeking. I think it's important that you document in detail what has happened to you so that you have that for the future if you need to reference it. It would be recommended to contact the airline and the airport. And obviously you can file a complaint with the airline or with the CTA, the Canadian Transportation Agency. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, I'm not sure if I was hearing correctly on my last trip. I think I was told that if I did not take the wheelchair to the door of the aircraft, then they would not be taking me into the aircraft. I'm not sure about that. You have any comments? Devin Glim: Every situation is different, and I unfortunately don't have all the information than, like, currently say what happened. But again, the airlines have a duty to accommodate without reducing or without disrupting the other person's dignity and confidence. So I'm not really sure what to say about that specific situation. That seems like that shouldn't happen. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think what really bothers me still, it's not as much as before, but it's still there, it's when you go to book your trip, you say you're vision impaired or you're blind, and what comes out of the mouth of the agent? "Do you require a wheelchair?" And I say, "No, I told you I'm vision impaired. I don't need a wheelchair." But it still gets under my skin at times when the agent says that. So, yeah. A blind passenger experiences one continuous journey, but it is managed by several organizations: the airport at the curb, the airline and often its ground-handling contractor at check-in and the gate, and the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority at screening. When assistance fails at one of those handoffs, tell me, who is legally responsible, and does it change anything when the person who fails works for a contractor rather than for the airline itself? Devin Glim: So I do not do two cases that use whatever may be unhappy, I'm gonna say, are general statements. And again, each situation is different. And so I guess in terms of the responsibility of the staff and Patrick and other contractors, it really depends on what part of the journey that the failure occurred. Generally, anything that is flight-related is the airline. This includes, or this may include, the check-in, moving through security, issues with boarding the plane. And there may be other aspects where the airport is responsible or another organization. So it really depends on the situation, where you are, which city, what airport, what country, and all of that. In terms of contractors, Pat, do you wanna take that one? Patrick Robitaille: Yeah. Regarding contractors, airlines and airports are generally responsible for the contractors that they retain. So I guess another way to put that is airlines and airports can't escape a legal responsibility by using an outside party or a contractor. Contractors need to be properly trained to provide assistance. Essentially, they're gonna be held to the same standard as employees. And as the Canadian Transportation Agency has affirmed in recent decisions, this holds true, that contractors are gonna be held to the same standards if they're operating under an airline or an airport. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Because I know that several years ago, I had a case against a certain airport for the same reason, and they tried to escape responsibility by saying, "It's the contractor, it wasn't them." And we argued this and we argued this, and finally the CTA said, "No, you are responsible, not the contractor." But it took a few years for us to get to the stage when the airport authority finally could not do anything because they were told, "It's your responsibility. It's not your contractor's responsibility." And they really argued this vociferously. I mean, things have changed a little bit, but that was a harrowing experience for me and— Devin Glim: Definitely. And I think it also shows how challenging litigation can be, and how, like how does it argue for your rights can take a lot of time and energy. So it's always something that needs to be considered. But yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, when a passenger with a disability decides to take the complaint further, there are two main doors: the Canadian Transportation Agency, which in 2026 can award just over $24,000 each for pain and suffering and for a wilful or reckless practice, and the Canadian Human Rights Commission, where Tribunal awards for pain and suffering are capped at $20,000. And a complaint filed more than a year after the events may be turned away. How should a traveller choose between these two doors, and why does that choice matter so much? Patrick Robitaille: Donna, that is a great question, and I think maybe I'll start just by saying that there are two doors here, but the Canadian Transportation Agency has been given authority to deal with accessibility and human rights complaints pertaining to travel. So this should be the chosen path if the barrier here is specific to actual transportation. In fact, there's actually a good chance if an issue like this was filed through the Human Rights Commission, the commission would send the case over to the Canadian Transportation Agency because they're the ones now with jurisdiction for this. And so the Canadian Transportation Authority can theoretically as well, as you mentioned in the question, provide higher compensation, but I did wanna note it can be difficult to get this. You made mention of wilful and reckless practice or disregard. And the burden of proving that is quite high. It's very seldom successful. So although it may read that there is a higher payout there, that can sometimes be a little bit more difficult to attain. But I think one benefit for sure, and you had mentioned this about the limitation on the Human Rights Commission, is that the Canadian Transportation Agency doesn't have that limitation. So you don't have to file within a year. You're able to file without that limitation period. I think it's also important to recognize that the Canadian Transportation Agency only provides compensations for harm directly related to the transportation. So it's not going to consider losses for things in the periphery like hotels and other expenses. The Canadian Transportation decision-makers, this is also interesting to note, they've been given this jurisdiction to hear these complaints because they have expertise when it comes to transportation and when it comes to understanding and interpreting the underlying legislation. So they really truly are likely to be more effective at assessing these cases and at providing appropriate remedies. And on the note of their expertise, that means that as an expert tribunal, if a case were won and it was appealed and ended up in the courts, the courts are gonna give a lot more deference to them as a decision-maker and the decision that they made because they have a lot of expertise in the area. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you're saying then that it would be more effective to go to the Canadian Transportation Agency rather than— Patrick Robitaille: Yes. I think with all the things that I've mentioned, I think most specifically because they have been given that jurisdiction and they are the proper channel to hear a travel-related complaint. Devin Glim: Yeah. And just to add, right? Again, if a person was to go to the commission, the commission would likely just send the case to the Canadian Transportation Agency. So yeah, it really is only one path to take, and that is to the CTA. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But how would I as a layperson know about this? How would I know which one to go? I mean, I've had so much experience, I would know where to go. I think I would. But how would the mainstream person know where to go? Where is it written that it is more effective to go to the CTA? Devin Glim: I don't know, Donna. That's why we have a podcast like this to educate the community on how to do certain things. I do want to be clear that it's not just more effective to go to the CTA than the commission. It really is the only option. Because as, at the CTA, I don't know. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So if it's the only option and I took it to the CHRC, would they just then tell me to go over to the CTA? Devin Glim: Most likely. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Aha, okay. All right. Okay. The Accessible Transportation for Persons with Disabilities Regulations apply to large carriers, generally to those that carried at least one million passengers in each of the two previous years, and many of the aircraft rules apply only to planes with 30 or more passenger seats. What protections does a blind traveller have on a smaller regional or northern carrier, and is it a gap that the law should close? Patrick Robitaille: Donna, you do point out an interesting and true fact here that there can be a gap because there's this threshold of how many passengers are travelling and how many passengers are on the plane and that can trigger certain protections that might be missing on these smaller carriers. In light of that gap, I think it's important to remember that human rights laws are always still going to apply. Human rights laws are quasi-constitutional, and they are going to apply when somebody is providing that travel service. And these smaller regional carriers still have a duty to accommodate a blind traveller. The regulation at play here is simply a minimum. Section two of the regulation says, "For greater certainty, nothing in these regulations is to be construed as limiting the duty to accommodate under the Canadian Human Rights Act or any other Act of Parliament." So even where the regulation does apply, the human rights legislation is going to be in effect. And so the thresholds you mentioned do present a gap in the law, but human rights legislation is ultimately attempting to fill it. And passengers will always still receive an individualized analysis of their specific accommodation needs and the resources of the accommodation provider. Those will still be taken into consideration on both sides when assessing a situation like this. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you're saying, in essence, that the gap is closing. Would you go that far? Devin Glim: I wouldn't say closing. I think we need to look at this question through a human rights lens, in that no matter what the regulation says, human rights law still applies. So any service provider or any airline is still required to do an individual assessment of a passenger's needs and attempt to accommodate that passenger up until undue hardship. And so that analysis will, again, it may lead to a different decision depending on the airline, where it is, who the passenger is, what their needs are, and all other considerations that need to be made when looking at an accommodation. So on a smaller regional or local carrier, there is always still the human rights laws that exist. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: In November of 2025, you told Global News that wheelchairs for a lot of people is an extension of their body, and that a policy like WestJet's 300-pound weight limit on power wheelchairs will always exclude someone. How does Canadian accommodation law treat a blanket rule like that compared with an individual assessment of each passenger's needs? And what can a traveller do today if they're told that their mobility aid cannot fly? Devin Glim: That is a good question. So I think I'm gonna break it down into a two-step. So in terms of the passenger, when a passenger is looking up, they should always look at the aircraft requirements ahead of time to kind of know what the situation is and whether they can be accommodated on the aircraft or not. In terms of, like, a policy like that, a, like a law, legislation is not in contact with all other relevant legislation and human rights law. So what we mean by this is that a rule like this may have a adverse impact on someone in the community or a group of people, such as power wheelchair users in this case. And so it really does come down to the passenger providing as much notice as possible to the airline, kind of working with them to try and do as accommodation possible. Airlines are still required to accommodate persons with disabilities, even if they have a cargo reaching policy as in question. And each request for an accommodation needs to be assessed on individual basis. So again, it really does depend on the situation, where they're travelling, who they're travelling with. If a passenger is told that they cannot fly with their mobility, they… I mean, in terms of Air Canada and the rules they're saying, as long as the request is made 21 days in advance, then they can ask for a aircraft to be substituted with a different, more accessible aircraft. But that is only Air Canada. Any other airlines still owe a duty to accommodate per Canada's human rights legislation. Again, a letter is unnecessary. A letter as possible should be given to the airline. And if all else fails, then the traveller can file a complaint with the CCRA. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's very interesting. Talk is starting to wind down, but I have this question for you guys. Your colleagues at ARCH represented Timothy Rose in Air Canada v. Rose. And in March of 2025, the Federal Court of Appeal found that Air Canada had not shown that it would suffer undue hardship if it had to substitute an accessible aircraft for a passenger whose power wheelchair could not fit through the cargo door. For listeners who are hearing the phrase "undue hardship" for the first time, what does it mean and what does the Rose decision mean for passengers beyond power wheelchair users, including blind traveller with a guide dog? Patrick Robitaille: So Donna, to explain undue hardship, and Devin, by all means, jump in if I'm sort of not framing this correctly. But undue hardship is defining a point where making an accommodation becomes too difficult, becomes too unsafe, or becomes too expensive. So it's essentially the point at which, in this case, a service provider wouldn't have to provide the accommodation because it falls into one of those categories. And in the case of Rose, that case shows that airlines have a duty to accommodate, even if it's inconvenient or difficult. Inconvenience and difficulty isn't undue hardship. And even if the requested accommodation goes beyond what is mandated by the regulations, I think that's an important one with Rose. Essentially Rose confirms that regulations don't give airlines an out. They can't regulate their way out of having a duty to accommodate. They still have to accommodate unless it reaches the point of burdening them with an undue hardship. Devin Glim: I also want to add that, as Patrick mentioned, the cost and safety and the availability of resources, those are very high threshold beliefs. And so most accommodations that may arise shouldn't necessarily reach that point. But yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm not fond of that term, the duty to accommodate. I just, for some reason, just doesn't go down very well with me. If either of you had to choose a substitute term, what do you think it could be? Devin Glim: That's on the spot here. I'm not sure. I always thought that the duty to accommodate is kind of like a duty, like an obligation that a sort of provider has. So I'm not sure if that would change it. How about you, Pat? Patrick Robitaille: That is maybe one of the most interesting questions I've ever been asked. [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] I don't like the term, I really don't. Sorry. [laughs] Patrick Robitaille: It sounds almost military-esque. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, and it sort of sounds, maybe could be taken as being condescending as well. What do you think? Patrick Robitaille: I like that it sounds firm. I like that it does represent to me, the word duty means, this is something that is required of you, and I like it in that sense, but now you got me thinking. I'll have to write you after this, after I've been able to chew on that question a bit. Devin Glim: How about you, Donna? What would you want it to be called? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Sorry, say that again? Devin Glim: What would you change it to? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Ah. What would I put in place of that? [laughs] I should have thought of the answer before I asked the question. You got me there. You got me there. The duty to accommodate. Should it be a must to accommodate? I don't know. Devin Glim: We'll have to do something on that one. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You have to think about that, eh? [laughs] So I'm gonna close this interview with a general question to you both. I know that ARCH handles a lot of very interesting and exciting cases. I mean, I've been part of it all. I think I've had about maybe three cases in the past many years. We've won all of them, so I'm very pleased about that. What would you like to see ARCH do a bit more? I mean, they do so much already, but what do you think they can do to really enhance their presence and their profile for persons with disabilities? Devin Glim: Well, I think as a veteran ARCH does so much work, and a lot of it they're not getting the spotlight that it deserves, and they're not doing as in the mainstream view as it could be. But yeah, I think that ARCH should keep doing like it's been doing and advocating for people with disabilities and trying to create that change that we are all seeking in regards to accessibility and living a meaningful life as a person with a disability. And yeah, that is another really tough question there, Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Sorry. Devin Glim: Pat, do you have any thoughts on it? Patrick Robitaille: Yeah. I mean, my lens on this is through the eyes of a student, and I would love to see ARCH continue to expand and grow its presence on the campus at Osgoode and beyond. I mean, it's a small but mighty group of folks working here that work really, really hard for an area of law they really believe in. So I would just love to see that expand. I would love to see more students get exposure and opportunity to get through the door here. And I think maybe through those types of expansions it could continue to provide better supports and more awareness for the community, the broader community. But it's an amazing experience. I mean, as a student here, the type of work we get to do and what we are exposed to is so important on so many different levels, and it's so different than anything you could ever absorb inside of a classroom. And yeah, I hope it continues, and I hope it's able to expand. Although, [laughs] I think it's safe to say that everybody here gets worked pretty close to capacity. [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah. You mentioned the disability rights programme. Is that a new programme? Devin Glim: Sorry. Disability right— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The disability rights— I think Patrick had mentioned it, about the disability rights programme, law programme. Patrick Robitaille: No. Oh, just referencing the programme that I'm a part of, like why I was even given the privilege of being involved today on the podcast as a result of Osgoode's programme connected to ARCH through the Disability Law Intensive. I'm not sure how long they've been doing this together. It's over 10 years, 15 years the school's been collaborating with ARCH. And so that programme is amazing. A small group of students every year get to come on board for what we refer to as clinical legal experiences in the school, where in lieu of classroom learning, you get part of your learning in a setting like this. And I'll tell you, it's one of the most incredible opportunities of my life and I've been absolutely loving it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I never knew about this programme. I have a law degree from the University of London, England. But I'm going to confess, I am not gonna go to the bar. I'm too… I just love doing these types of interviews and doing research with people. I don't wanna go to the bar. I don't wanna… Well, I wouldn't say waste my time, I just don't wanna spend my time doing [laughs] going to the bar. But— Patrick Robitaille: Well, it's an interesting profession in education. I mean, the education can help you understand how you can be a better advocate for the things you believe in. There's a lot of people who get the education and don't wanna get into the practice, but it really sets you up in life to advocate, to ask the right questions, to be curious. And I think there's so much you can take from this education outside of being called to a bar. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, I agree. This has been a really, really interesting interview, and I've really appreciated the opinions you've expressed with regard to travel for passengers with disabilities. I wanna thank you both for having come on today. And if you feel that at any time in the future you'd like to say more, please reach out to me and let me know. I'd love to have you on again. Devin Glim: Yeah. Amazing. Thank you for having us. It's always wonderful talking with you. And yeah, we're always happy to collaborate on future projects. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very, very much, Devin and Patrick. You have a good rest of the evening, and I'm sure we'll be talking again very soon. Take care. Devin Glim: Awesome. Thank you, Donna. Patrick Robitaille: Thank you, Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Bye-bye now. Patrick Robitaille: Take care. Devin Glim: Bye. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye-bye. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to Curb to Cabin Canada with your host, Donna J. Jodhan. Every episode we publish includes a full written transcript so that nothing said here sits outside of anyone's reach. You'll find it, along with the documents and decisions that we referred to today, online at https://donnajodhan.com/3c. If you work for an airline, airport, or agency along this journey and you'd like to speak for your own part of it, Donna would be happy to hear from you. The invitation is genuine, the address is on the website, and the questions are always sent in advance. If this episode was useful to you, please pass it along to someone who needs to hear it, a fellow traveller, a colleague, or the organization that really ought to be listening. Wishing you safe and accessible travel across Canada and beyond. Until next time. [outro music]

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #119: Interview with Diane Bergeron, Head, Global Strategies & Senior Vice President Public Affairs, CNIB https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-10-27-2026/ In this motivating episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA welcomes back Diane Bergeron, Head of Global Strategies and Senior Vice President of Public Affairs at CNIB, and congratulates Diane on the honorary Doctor of the University degree that MacEwan University awarded her this past June. Diane says that in her convocation address she told the graduates she has learned more from her failures than from any success, and that failure builds the resilience people with disabilities need. Diane traces her focus on abilities rather than assumptions to a Montreal stable where, at 16 or 17, she was told she could not volunteer because she was blind, and where she ended up teaching classes before the end of the summer. She also describes going back to school as a single mother, through two diplomas, a bachelor's degree and a master's, and how CNIB brought its international, government relations and advocacy work together into one global strategies and public affairs area. Diane recounts the challenges she took on after a personality test at Royal Roads University said she does not trust people with her fears and vulnerabilities: a tandem jump from about 12,500 feet, a race car drive, an Easter Seals Drop Zone rappel down a 29-story building, a first triathlon at 47, and two tries at the Mont Tremblant Ironman, where heat stroke stopped her at 50 and she crossed the finish line at 52. Diane talks about her guide dogs Lucy and Carla, the sudden loss of Carla to a brain tumor, and her new black Lab, Natie, and walks Donna through traveling with a guide dog, from dog relief areas and quarantine paperwork to the extra space that Canadian rules require only on domestic flights. Donna closes by inviting Diane onto Donna's new podcast, Curb to Cabin Canada, and Diane suggests the end of February. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, and MBA invites you to listen to her bi-weekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate, and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch, and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, an accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster, who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November of 2010, I won the landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Everything I do circles one goal, and that is to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench, where policy meets lived experience, and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to change and build. I am extremely pleased and privileged to welcome Diane Bergeron to our Remarkable World Commentary podcast. Welcome, Di, or should I say Dr. Di? Diane Bergeron: [laughs] Thank you, Donna. I'm so happy to be here. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] I want to congratulate you. I didn't know about this until Aaron told me, and before anything else, congratulations, or should I say now, Dr. Di, or Dr. Bergeron. This past June, MacEwan University awarded you an honorary Doctor of the University degree, and you are a three-dash-time MacEwan graduate yourself. Diane Bergeron: Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What did it mean to return to Edmonton and receive that honor? And what message did you most want that graduating class to carry with them? Diane Bergeron: Wow. When they called me, they had actually sent me an email from the president's office asking if they could set up a time to talk to me with the president, and I really honestly thought they were gonna ask me to volunteer on a committee or ask me for money. And so [laughs] when the president got on, and she's like, "I was wondering if you could come out here in June and accept an honorary doctorate," I was just like, "What? Huh? What?" [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, cool. Me? Diane Bergeron: I was very confused. [laughs] And it was such an honor to receive it, not only because it's from my alma mater, but my daughter also got her Bachelor of Social Work there, and my stepson also graduated, so it's a family affair. Diane Bergeron: So it was really nice to be there. In my convocation address, I talked to the fact that, well, there was a couple of things that I pointed out, but I think the key point was around failure and that I have learned more from my failures than I've learned from any success. And then if you're not failing, then you're just not trying hard enough because nobody can do their very best if they're not giving out their best, which means they have to be prepared to fail and then learn from that failure. And that, I would say, is one of the key. And then the other thing that I wanted them to know was that the only one that can stop them now is them. They are the future and they now have control over the world. We need people in the world that are gonna be good, strong leaders, and this now becomes their role coming out of these programs. And so making sure that they understood that they're the only ones that can stop them now, so to go out and just live. Live it to the fullest. So it was amazing. It was amazing ceremony. Really enjoyed it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: These are very, very humbling remarks. Nobody likes to talk about failing, but one has to fail in order to learn, and one has to fail in order to get up again and succeed, right? Diane Bergeron: Well, it builds resilience, right? And that's one of the things that I've always said is especially for those of us that have a disability or some kind of—whether you're blind, whether you use a wheelchair, whatever it is—we need to build resiliency because that resiliency is what's gonna get us through the day. So how do you build resiliency if you don't fail? So you need to. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I remember the first day I met you was on Parliament Hill, and John Rafferty brought us together because we were attending some sort of function, and then we met Justin Trudeau, the future prime minister. And I'll never forget that day, and that was quite some time ago. And now I'm gonna call you Dr. B. So Dr. B, MacEwan University described your impact as inspiring others to focus on abilities rather than assumptions. Where did that philosophy come from for you? And can you share a moment when someone's assumption about what a blind woman could do was proven wrong? Diane Bergeron: You always ask these great questions. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] I try. [laughs] Diane Bergeron: I'll tell you where it came from. And it's the example that gave me this whole philosophy. I'm gonna say I was 16 years old or 17 years old. And as you know, I'm an animal lover. And I love dogs. I also love horses. And I wanted to be around horses, but I was in Montreal. I lived in the city. But there was a stable that I could get to, and I wanted to go and go horseback riding, so I did. I did that one day, and then I thought, "I'd like to work here." Like, volunteer. I'm ready to muck out the stable. And I'd like to come and actually do this. And somebody said, "Well, you can't do that. You're blind." A blind person can't do that. And I remember thinking, "Well, of course I can do it. I just need to figure it out." Diane Bergeron: And I remember going to the stable and saying to them, "Look, I don't want to get paid. I just wanna volunteer. I just would like to learn about the horses." And the woman was like, "Yeah, okay. Well, let's start you off, see what it is that will work for you." And we just started building it, building it, and before the end of the summer, I ended up teaching some classes. And I was like, when you do a trail ride, you have somebody in the front guiding, then somebody in the back that's the person that is there to make sure that nobody goes astray. And so I'd end up the horse in the back, and it was one of those things that just hit me at that moment was, well, just because somebody said I can't doesn't mean I can't. Diane Bergeron: I just have to think what do I wanna do, and then I have to figure out a way to make it happen and not let these assumptions define who I am and what I wanna do. And that was literally when it happened to me, was at the stable. And I've kinda lived my life that way. I've just lived it and thought, "I'm just gonna do whatever I want." And, I mean, within reason. Nobody wants me doing their brain surgery, so I've never tried that one. [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I hope not. [laughs] Diane Bergeron: But just every day we face challenges. Whether it's because of sight loss—I'm getting older, right? Now I'm facing different challenges, right? Getting my shoes on becomes more difficult. [laughs] So you just have to kinda think about it from how do I take an assumption and change it into—or remove whatever barriers it is so that their assumptions are not gonna define me? 'Cause I wanna define me. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think this is a very, very refreshing approach. I think that too many of us at times, and I've been included in this group, is that when you're told you can't do it as a blind person, you say, "Oh, okay, fine. I'm gone." But then you learn that in order to help secure the future of our kids, you really have to say, "No, I'm not going anywhere. I wanna do it, and I'm going to do it." And you have to stick it out. You don't have a choice if you really want to help improve the lives of others, right? Diane Bergeron: I've said to people when I talk about advocacy, people say, "Oh, this happens to me. I got refused with my dog here. I didn't get that job," or whatever. And I always say, "Look, here's the thing about advocacy. Advocacy is you changing a situation not for yourself alone." Every time you create awareness, get into an advocacy situation, yes, you may win over a job or whatever it is. But in the process of doing that, you've educated several people along the way. And so it's not just about you because the attitude is gonna then carry on to the next person. Diane Bergeron: I also have said there is nothing wrong with saying, "Today is not my day," right? 'Cause I believe when you have to advocate constantly, and you know this, you wake up in the morning, you go to bed at night. Between those two situations, you're advocating pretty much all day long [laughs] as a blind person. Right? You can't take them on. Sometimes you have to just go, "Is this the hill I wanna die on today? And if this is not the one, then maybe I just need to take a rest and step back." So there's no shame in not doing it. But when you do it, when you actually create awareness and do the advocacy, it is changing a system for the next person and the next person and the next person, and hopefully the children that come behind us, right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I like that philosophy, today is not my day. And you're not always gonna go out there and win every single advocacy initiative. You're not, right? You're gonna have days when, oh my gosh, well, I did my best. It's not my day today. Move on. And then you have those days when you're totally elated, excited, exuberated, right? So it's a mixture of everything, and then people just have to get used to that. Advocacy is a two-way street, right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You hold three degrees, Dr. B, from MacEwan University. And a Master of Arts in Leadership from the Royal Roads University. And last time you told us that as a single mother facing shift work, childcare, and transportation barriers, you decided to go back to school. What did each return to the classroom give you, and what would you say to adults living with sight loss who wonder whether it is too late to go back to school? Diane Bergeron: So the first time I went back, I got my—what is now known as Disability and Community Studies. At the time it was Rehabilitation Practitioner program. And I got that, and I started working in the rehabilitation field. And then it got to the point, I mean, that is a big shift work thing. You gotta work night shifts and all sorts of things. And when I had my daughter and became a single mom, it was, how do I get babysitters to do shift work? And then what do I... The bus only runs so many hours, and it was so complicated. Diane Bergeron: And so I thought, "Well, if I can stay in this field, but I need to become management." So I went back to school. I got my Management Studies diploma, and that allowed me to get a job working at the time at the City of Edmonton in policy development, coordinating the disability advisory group to the city council. Moved from there to a bigger jurisdiction, which was the province. And so in that position, eventually I wanted to become a manager, but I only had two diplomas. I didn't have a degree, so I had to go back to school to get a degree. And so I got my Bachelor of Human Services Administration degree and was very happy working in the position. And then my director left, and for six month I basically ran the whole thing, and I was the acting director. I applied for the job, and somebody else got it. Diane Bergeron: I mean, they had all of the qualifications, but the one thing that she had that I didn't have was a master's. And so I went back to school to get my master's so I could advance in that. And funny enough, I got my master's, and then the person that was in that position, it was a couple years later, they ended up leaving, and they asked me to be the acting director again. And they were working on giving me that position when CNIB called and made me an offer that I couldn't refuse. So I told them, I said, "I'm leaving the government. But don't worry, I'll be back, 'cause now I'm gonna be on the other side of the table." [laughs] And they were like, "Oh, no, she knows all the secrets." [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, she's gonna trade them off, isn't she? Oh, wow. Wow. Remarkable. Diane Bergeron: So, but I think the piece that you asked, about what would I say to somebody, is it too old—one is too old to go back to school. I don't think you're ever too old to go back to school. If you want to learn something, if you've got a reason like I did in my career to advance in my career, that's one thing. But the other piece of it is if you wanna just learn something new, you don't even have to go back to school to get a degree. You can go back and audit classes. You can take classes. There's all sorts of things that you can do. Diane Bergeron: And if it's not school, maybe school isn't your thing, but I do think that learning is a lifelong... It should be a lifelong activity for people. We should always be developing and learning something. I have in the last couple of years picked up guitar. And [laughs] trying to learn how to play guitar. And it's not easy. But I love it. It's relaxing for me, and it's keeping my brain functioning, and I just love the learning. So I think if you love the learning, you should never stop, no matter which level of learning it is. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree. So now you're the musical doctor, right? Diane Bergeron: [laughs] Yeah, you can call me Dr. Guitar, [laughs] Dr. Music. I don't know. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, my gosh. No, I agree with you there. I do. So when we spoke last October, you were leading CNIB's new International Partnerships Department. But today, you serve as Head of Global Strategies and Senior Vice President of Public Affairs. What has changed in your role over the past year, and how does global lens and the public affairs lens come together in your work for Canadians who are blind, partially sighted, or deaf-blind? Diane Bergeron: So in the International Partnerships Department, I was asked to take that on because I had always, since I've been at CNIB, pretty much the whole time been doing international work off the side of my desk while doing other things. And when Angela Bonfanti became the president and CEO for CNIB, she asked me to create this new department that was gonna focus on international work and looking at how do we build cooperation with sister organizations. And so I started with just that piece, and then after a little bit of time, we realized that so much of the international work that I was doing was advocacy work. And it also coincided with government relations work. And so we decided to pull it all into one. So we took the government relations department and the advocacy department and put them all into the global strategies and public affairs area. So it's been fascinating for me because there's so many times that we're talking about advocacy that goes beyond our borders, and so it just brings it all together. And I really enjoy... I mean, you know me. I love the advocacy work. I like the GR work. And I just really get excited when I can bring all of those and utilize them in different ways. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think the first time we met was when we were both on the Elections Canada advisory committee many years ago. And we know we've crossed paths since then in several different areas, and I think it takes a special person to be able to interact in all of these different roles. I mean, you're not just stuck in one corner. You're going from corner to corner to corner, and it must be tiring, but at the same time very rewarding and very exciting, isn't it? Diane Bergeron: It is. And I've always said the thing that I like about my job is that there's so many different facets to it. I can wake up in the morning and have a meeting, what I consider the boring meetings, the ones where you sit down and you've gotta talk about budgets and forecasts and all of those. And I can have that meeting and go, "Okay, this is..." You gotta have those meetings, right? But then I get to go from there to talk to somebody in government about the excitement of one of our programs or work with an international partner where I get to look at how can we work together on a particular project. And then the next day I'm off doing something else. There's always something new and exciting and interesting, and you learn so much from all of these different interactions. Diane Bergeron: And one of the things that always gets me going is when I'm meet with somebody in one scenario and go, "Wait a minute." I think that I should introduce you to this person over here in this other part of my work because they've got a similar project working, and it just... For me, being a connector like that, I really love to do that. And so my job gives me that opportunity to just... Every day is new, and I get to introduce a lot of people to a lot of people, and I get to meet a lot of people. It's fun. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Where do you get the energy? Diane Bergeron: Well, I'm getting older, so I don't have as much as I used to. [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. I was amazed to learn that you completed an Ironman in 2017. What drew you to that challenge? How did you train and race as a blind athlete? And what did crossing that finish line teach you that still carries you into your leadership today? Diane Bergeron: So when I went to Royal Roads University, we did these personality tests, Myers-Briggs and so on, and one of the things that they said was that I don't trust people very much. And I was like, "I trust a dog to get me all over the place. What do you mean I don't trust well?" I trust— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, yes. What is this? Diane Bergeron: Marston. And they said, "Yes, but you don't trust people with your fears and your vulnerabilities." And I said, "Oh, okay. Well, that might be true." So the idea was that you would learn something about yourself, and then you would create an opportunity to try and make change. So I thought, well, what is something that I'm really vulnerable with? And so I decided that I'm terrified of heights. So I thought I'll trust somebody to help me jump out of a plane. And so I did a tandem jump from, like, 12,500 feet. And it was amazing. I highly recommend it, Donna. I do. It was amazing. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, leave me alone. [laughs] Okay, go on. Diane Bergeron: My friends were like, "Why are you jumping out of a perfectly serviceable aircraft?" And it was amazing. But when I did it, I thought, this is kinda fun, just doing challenges. And so the next year there was a fundraiser for somebody or other, and I drove a race car. And I always put these up on YouTube, like, videos of these things. And then the year after that, I did the Drop Zone. So I rappelled down the side of a 29-story building. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What? Geez. Diane Bergeron: Yeah, that was for Easter Seals, I think it was. It was the—they call it the Drop Zone. You dress as a superhero, and you come down the side of the building. Anyways, so I did that. A little terrifying. And then I was like, I don't know what else to do 'cause my friends are like, "What are you gonna do next year?" And I'm like, "I don't know." And my friend said, "I think you should do a triathlon." And I'm like, "Have you seen me? I'm a couch potato. What are you talking about?" I'm 47 years old at the time. And they said, "Well, you have six months to train. We can do this triathlon. You just do a small one." They call it Tri a Tri. It's just small. And I said, "Oh, no. If I'm gonna do a challenge, it's gonna be a big one." And the event that we chose, the biggest race they had at the time was what's called an Olympic distance, which I think is a 1,500-meter swim, 40K bike ride, and a 10-kilometer run. Diane Bergeron: And so I trained for it. I borrowed a tandem that I think was put together in the '20s, like 1920s. Honestly, it was piecemeal. Not everything matched on it. But I did this race, and I didn't come in the... I came in second to last. I was just ahead of the old lady with the limp. [laughs] But I crossed the finish line. And I was like, "This is great." I did this. This is my challenge for this year. And then my friend said, "Donna, I think you could do an Iron..." a half. Well, she said a half. "I think you could do a half Ironman." And I said, "Yeah, I don't wanna talk to you for at least a month," 'cause I was hurting. Diane Bergeron: And then a month later I thought, I'd like to do, not a half Ironman, I'd like to do a full Ironman when I turn 50. And we're talking a couple years away, and I could train for it. So I did a couple of half Ironmans to train and to be prepared. And then in the year that I turned 50, I went to Mont Tremblant Ironman, and I didn't finish. I got through the swim, the bike, and halfway through the run, and I had a heat stroke so bad. It was 40 degrees with the heat index. I had heat stroke so bad I had to step off the course. And I sent a message to my friends. I was like, "Oh, I didn't make it, and I'm sorry if I disappointed anybody." And one of my friends came back [laughs] and said, "Let's put this in perspective. You just swam four kilometers, rode a bike in the mountains for 180 kilometers, and ran 21 kilometers at 50 years old and blind while the rest of us sat and watched you do it." Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Right. I agree. Diane Bergeron: And that hit me. I went, okay, hang on a second. Then again, we get to failure, right? I saw that as a failure. I had failed because I didn't cross the finish line. Then I went, wait a minute, I actually succeeded. I didn't cross the finish line, but I had gone further than I had ever gone in my life, and only a couple of years before I was a couch potato. So I said, "No, this is not a failure. This is me learning." And I said to the race director who I spoke to right after that, I said, "I'm coming back in two years." And two years later, at 52, I went back. And I redid the exact same race, and I crossed the finish line, and I remember hugging my guide, and the race director himself went to put the medal on me, and he was crying 'cause he was so happy that I crossed the finish line. Diane Bergeron: And when that happened, as soon as they put that medal around my neck, I was like, "Wow, I've just challenged myself, and I managed to do this." But, in my opinion, the finish line is just the beginning. Because yes, you've done this, but what you've learned in the process is about how to be disciplined in your training. You learn about communication because when you're swimming, and you can't see where you're going, and you're tied to somebody, they've gotta communicate by tapping you, so you have to learn a different form of communication in the water, so you can't hear them with your ears underwater. When you're on the tandem, you have to learn how to be coordinated and work together. And sometimes you have to put more power in the pedals, but the other person has to be ready 'cause you gotta keep the bike balanced. And so there's a piece there, you have to learn how to work together as a team. And then when you're on the run, again, you're two people running, but one is guiding, and you've got to do your part in that process. Diane Bergeron: So you have to have your strategy in place because if you don't strategize it ahead, you'll hit the wall, and you have to be prepared for anything that could happen. And so the lessons from doing the Ironman really helped me to develop into my leadership skills as well because of the fact that it reminds me, when you're in a leadership role, you need to communicate. You need to work as a team. You need to have balance. You need to strategize together. And then when you cross the finish line of whatever it is, you need to celebrate together. And to me, that's any project I've ever worked on ever since, that's how I do it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think that's a wonderful philosophy. I think more of us need to develop this type of philosophy in order to achieve more. It doesn't come like that. It's not gonna come like that. Hard work. And believing in yourself as well. Right? Diane Bergeron: And learning from the failure, right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. You gotta fail in order to succeed. You cannot keep succeeding all the time, meaning you haven't tried hard enough, as you said before. Right? Diane Bergeron: Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Our listeners met Lucy, including me, your sock-stealing guide dog, in our first conversation. And you were working with Carla, a beautiful golden retriever. Today, you are paired or partnered with a Lady, a black Labrador retriever. What is it like to move from one guide to the next, and how has each partnership shaped you differently? And what do you wish people understood about the emotional side of working with and eventually retiring a guide dog? Diane Bergeron: [laughs] Lucy definitely was a fun dog. I have to admit [laughs] she was also a challenge. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, she was. Aw. Diane Bergeron: I swear to God, I never knew where my socks were. But each dog has their own personality and their own skillsets, right? And when you're following a dog, you've got a dog, you have the harness in your hand, and you're giving the dog the instructions. I mean, it's a partnership, right? And I often say it's kind of like dancing. Because you've got somebody who's leading and somebody who's following, but often the person who's following is actually the one who picked the song, right? So I always say when I'm working a guide dog, my dog may be guiding me, but I'm the one giving the dog the information it needs. So I have to support my dog just as much as my dog supports me. Because they're not GPS systems. I can't just say, "Take me to this address," right? You have to go step by step along the way. Diane Bergeron: When you go from one dog to the next, you have to retire a dog, or you lose—a dog passes or whatever—the hardest part for me is that the relationship that you have with that dog, even though it's your dog, and when you're at home, it's your pet. But there's a partnership. It's like it's a piece of you. And so when you stop working one dog, you've spent years building up trust and bond, because you have to trust each other. And so that trust is so strong between you, and the bond is so strong, when you suddenly have to say, "Okay, you can't work anymore," because you're getting too old. You're maybe losing your sight. You've got some medical issues, so whatever the case may be. And you need to now bring a new dog into this situation. It's not a switch. You can't switch trust like a light switch. It takes you time to move that trust and bond from one dog to another. And you never lose it for your previous dog. You just have to gain it with the new dog, and that takes time. They usually say six months to a year before you and your dog are a really good working team, and the trust is built up to that extent, because you have to do it. And each dog is so different. Diane Bergeron: Even the breeds. I will say working a shepherd is like working with a soldier because you say, "Forward," and, "Forward, find the curb," and the shepherd says, "Affirmative. I see it. Come," and marches to the corner and stops dead and waits for the next instruction. That's a shepherd. When you work a lab and you say, "Forward, find the curb," the dog goes, "I see it. Come with me. Oh my God, it's so exciting. Let's go find this curb. Look, it's right here. Aren't I a good dog?" Right? Wiggles the whole way there, right? [laughs] Very different persona. And then a golden retriever, you say, "Forward, find the curb," and the dog says, "I see it. Please join me on this journey. And we will glide to the corner. And when we stop at the corner, we must first wait for everybody to admire me before we move on to the next." [laughs] That's a golden. They love themselves. And so, well, they should. They're so beautiful. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, they are. Diane Bergeron: So working each dog, each different, even if you've got two golden retrievers that you're working. I mean, Lucy was a golden, Carla was a golden. They still have different personalities. They communicate differently through the harness. They have different strengths. The one thing that I will say, in this last experience was very difficult. I've had labs, I've had very good dogs, but I've always loved goldens. And when they gave me Natie as a black lab and matched me with her, I was really very happy that I didn't have a golden retriever. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, why? Diane Bergeron: Because Carla passed away very suddenly. She ended up having a brain tumor. Her first seizure was June 25th, and she was gone by July 7th. So less than two weeks. And I suddenly for the first time in 42 years didn't have a guide dog. And I honestly felt like I was blind again. I lost my independence. I felt like I just couldn't function. And because not only did I not have a working dog, I had lost a piece of me. It was like something was amputated off of me, and it was one of the hardest things I've ever gone through. Diane Bergeron: And when they gave me Natie just back in September, I honestly was so thankful that it wasn't a golden, 'cause I thought... Carla was such an amazing guide dog, like she was exceptional. And I thought if I had another golden, I probably would compare, even though I know I shouldn't. I probably would be comparing, "Oh, my other golden didn't do that," or, "Carla never did that," or whatever. Having a completely different breed and color of dog, I think helps me to see Natie as a different dog and not do the comparisons. Although I will tell you that I am exceptionally impressed with Natie. She's only 22 months old, but boy, that dog is good. She's an exceptional guide as well. But I thought that it would be too hard to have another one just like Carla after going through such a traumatic situation. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I just learned something new. I did not know that the different personalities had to do with like the colors of the dog, like the retriever, the lab. And which was the other one? Oh, the shepherd. Diane Bergeron: Yeah. Well, I mean, I've worked all three over my 42 years, and obviously there's gonna be the outliers, but generally that's the impression I have of them. It's just a different type of working dog. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. As you know, my new podcast, Curb to Cabin Canada, follows blind and low vision travelers from the curb outside the terminal to their seat in the cabin. You travel extensively for your work, so walk our listeners through a typical journey for you as a blind traveler. Where does it work well? Where does it break down? What changes when your guide dog travels with you, and have you ever been offered a wheelchair when what you needed was just a sighted guide? Diane Bergeron: Wow. So traveling is always an adventure, and this is gonna go back to that resilience thing. Anytime anybody travels, you have to be resilient because you never know what's gonna happen along the way. There's gonna be changes at gates and delays and cancellations and, oh, your luggage is missing, and there's all sorts of things that go wrong when you're traveling. Diane Bergeron: My journey, I believe, starts as I'm booking my... Well, it starts before I book my flight. Because if you're going to travel for work, you're gonna end up going someplace that may not be the place that you would normally go. So if it's a country or a place where the dog can go with me, and it would be all right for the dog to go, I usually take the dog. There are places that I will not take the dog, even if I'm allowed to take it. And it depends on the quarantine rules in the country. It depends on what I'm going to be facing when I'm there. I was in Costa Rica this year on vacation. I wouldn't take my dog to Costa Rica because Carla was with me then. She's a long-haired golden retriever, and it's 35 degrees, and I can't take her outside. She'd heatstroke. So she'd spend all her time inside, and I couldn't just leave her behind, so I'm not gonna take a dog to that. That's my choice. Other people will do what they do, but that's my choice. Or I might be going to a country where they have a lot of stray animals, and it's not safe for my dog to be there. So step one is determining is this a trip with a dog or without a dog? Once that is determined and I figure out what I need to do, then it's booking the flights that is going to coordinate. Diane Bergeron: If I'm traveling with the dog, I have to book flights where if there's a layover somewhere that I can get the dog to the bathroom. A lot of airports in Canada have dog relief areas within secured areas, which is wonderful, but they don't have a lot of that in, say, Europe. And so you have to leave the airport, go find a place for your dog to relieve, and then go back through security to get back into, to catch the next flight. So your timing between flights has to be dependent on where you can get a dog to the bathroom. And I would say so determining that means I have to determine which airlines. I have my preferred airlines because I've had better success with them than others and get better service. Diane Bergeron: It can vary in different airports. Certainly with different airlines, the service can vary. Some people are awesome with an airline. Some people don't know what to do with you and guide you like you're a package. [laughs] Drag you around like you're a suitcase. And so I think, again, it goes back to communications. I always communicate with the airlines. I'm coming with a guide dog, or I'm coming with a cane, I'm gonna need passenger assistance. I'm traveling in this manner, whatever. This is the supports I'm gonna need. So you communicate that at the beginning. I reaffirm it before I leave on the trip to make sure that they've remembered that I'm coming. [laughs] They don't forget. And then obviously, if you're dealing with sighted guides through airports and stuff, you're dealing with people sometimes who just don't have the slightest clue how to guide you, and you've gotta figure that out, and it's hard to trust somebody when they're bumping you into things, and you're trying to communicate that, "Please don't smash me into that barrier again." Diane Bergeron: Going through security, again, with the dog, there's a little song and dance you have to go through with that. And so there's challenges with the dog. I would say my biggest challenge with the dog and traveling is that domestic regulations... See, Canadian Transportation Agency has regulations, and if you are on a domestic flight within Canada, they are required to provide you enough space for you and your dog, so that typically means blocking the seat next to you so that there's enough space for your dog to lay down and not be squished. However, the minute you cross a border, that rule changes, and they no longer have to provide you with that extra space. So I'm often traveling to countries where I'm in a plane for eight hours, and my dog has to spend that full eight hours curled up underneath the seat in front of me like hand luggage, and I just think that that's the craziest thing ever. Diane Bergeron: If I'm going from Ottawa to Toronto, I get the extra seat, which is... It's an hour flight. It's not a big deal. If I'm going to Germany, it's an eight-hour flight. It's so far, and they don't give you the extra seat, and they always say to me the same thing. "Oh, it's because you're going across the border, so then you go to Department of Transportation rules somewhere else, and they say that you don't get the extra seat." And I always tell the airlines, "You keep telling me it's because of the DOT rules. In fact, the DOT rules say you may charge for the extra seat or for an extra space, but you are not required to give a person the extra space." And it's the airline's policy that says they won't give me that extra space. Diane Bergeron: So I've always said, "Stop saying that you can't. It's not that you can't. You can. You just choose not to." So for me, that's a bit of an issue. Yeah, that's a big problem. That means my dog is traveling all squished up in a long flight, and they shouldn't have to. And then of course preparing to go to another country, depending on what the rules are for quarantines. You have to get medical health records done. Sometimes you have to do titer tests six months in advance, depending on the country. Sometimes you have to have certain, say, tapeworm treatments done in a very specific timeframe, like no more than 120 hours before you arrive in the country, but it has to be more than 48 hours before you arrive in the country. Diane Bergeron: So you've got a certain window that you have to see the vet to get this test done and get all the documentation approved by the CFIA and then sent over. It's a rigmarole when you're traveling with a dog. But then when you get there and you get your freedom, it's worth it. So I would say those are the biggest challenges. But I have to say there are times that I get on the plane with my dog and the flight attendant will take a look at the space they've got for me, and they've been just like, "No, we're moving you to a space." And they've put me in a row all by myself [laughs] so that the dog can stretch out or whatever. Diane Bergeron: When I went to Royal Roads University and I was living in the dormitories there, they had these little tiny kind of dorm rooms, and then they had the bigger sort of executive rooms. And the executives were, like, on a lottery system, so I had requested it. And they said, "How big is your dog?" It was Lucy at the time. And I said, "Well, it's about 70 pounds." And they go, "Oh, no, we can't expect a dog that size to be in that little room. We're gonna put you in one of the bigger rooms." And I said, "Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that. I'm a little bit concerned that you didn't seem to care that you were gonna put me in that little room, but you cared about the dog being [laughs] in that room." And I find the same thing with airlines, right? They don't care that I'm gonna be squished up somewhere, but boy, they do care about that dog and making sure [laughs] that she has enough room. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] My clock is winding down, but I have an idea that I'd like to run by you. Diane Bergeron: Sure. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: My Curb to Cabin Canada podcast, I'd like to invite you to come back and talk to us more maybe sometime in February or at the end of January. I really think that our listeners would benefit more from what you're going to tell us. Would you be interested in coming back? Diane Bergeron: Sure. Absolutely. Anytime, Donna. Anytime for you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Oh, my God. Am I honored here? No, I mean it. I think you have... And I'm going to learn from this too. So I'm going to look at the dates, and I'm going to send you an invitation for this. In the meantime, I wanna thank you for—this was a very entertaining interview, a very motivating interview, an interview where I think the kids of the future would benefit from a lot of the values that you talked about and that you would pass on. So I wanna thank you, Di, Dr. B, for having been here today. And look for my invitation. Which would be better for you, end of January or February? Diane Bergeron: You know what, I'm gonna have to... I'm thinking towards the end of February is probably better for me. If that's possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, you got it. I will work on that. In the meantime, I wanna wish you the very best. I wanna congratulate you again. I think, well done. Well done. Diane Bergeron: Thanks. Thank you. Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #118: Interview with Michael Feir, Author, Personal Power https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-10-22-2026/ In this inspiring episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes Michael Feir, the totally blind writer who founded Audyssey, the free email magazine about games blind people can play, in 1996. Michael explains that discovering the interactive fiction magazine XYZZYnews and a summer with no job led him to start Audyssey, which grew through volunteers, mailing lists and even a flame war into a community that reached at least 14 countries over eight years, until he burned out. He describes his belief that people learn best through play, recalling how a disc of games, including a 100-room maze called The Great Escape, taught him typing and how to go back and hear what his access technology had said, while finite math left him resenting the subject. Donna and Michael then turn to Personal Power, his free guide for blind iPhone users, which he wrote after meeting too many people who did not know that VoiceOver, not Siri, is what makes an iPhone accessible. He talks about AI that can confirm his hearing aids are charging but can also hallucinate, urging listeners to double-check anything that matters, and he points to the VoiceOver tutorial now built into the iPhone's settings. He recalls meeting Kelly at a W. Ross Macdonald School reunion, which led to eight years of weekly segments on Kelly and Company, explains that the book stays free because of the rules of ODSP and in honor of his late friend John Morgan, and says the fourth edition will cover Apple Intelligence, safety, writing on an iPhone and new games. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: [upbeat digital music] Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, and MBA invites you to listen to her bi-weekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate, and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch, and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, an accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster, who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November of 2010, I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Everything I do circles one goal, and that is to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench, where policy meets lived experience, and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest, a change-maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. I am pleased and privileged to welcome Mike Feir. I hope I am pronouncing your name correctly. Michael Feir: It's actually Feir. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Feir. Michael Feir: [laughs] Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. I'm pleased to welcome you to the Remarkable World Commentary podcast. Welcome, Mike. Michael Feir: It's a pleasure to be here. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you. All right, so let's jump right in. And in 1996, you founded Audyssey, a free email magazine that was devoted to games that blind people could play, and you edited its first 40 issues through 2004. What sparked the idea, and what did it take to build and sustain a volunteer publication with readers in at least 14 countries? Tell us. Michael Feir: Well, it all started because in 1996, a couple of things happened to coincide. One of them was I had come across a magazine called XYZZYnews. And that's X-Y-Z-Z-Y N-E-W-S. And it was all about interactive fiction, text adventures, which I had been playing since I was a kid. And I was just blown away by this magazine that started, that really took the art form seriously and was looking back at older games that I was familiar with, and then telling me about new ones that I hadn't even known were around. So it was a huge kind of moment, finding that magazine earlier in the year, earlier '96. Michael Feir: And then in July, when I went home from university, there was nothing to do in terms of finding a summer job. A lot of other students, a lot of my friends were working, and there was just nothing. And I thought, "Okay, I could sit here and grouch about that, or I could start something." So I decided to call it Audyssey, A-U-D-Y-S-S-E-Y, as kind of a nod to games being journeys of the mind, and also audio. And thankfully, my deafblind readers forgave me for that [laughs] unintentional slight against them. 'Cause of course their games don't have to be necessarily auditory to be playable by blind people. Michael Feir: So that was how it all started. That summer, I did the first issue and published it on CompuServe. And from that closed environment, I just also decided to send it out on something called Sky Club, which is a CNIB list, and that was the first time I kind of started a bit of a flame war because some people really objected to this massive magazine kind of suddenly appearing. And I guess it did cost information for some people. It was very tight, the information they got. So there was a back and forth flame war about this. But luckily enough people liked it and it spread. People stepped up and said, "Hey, I could make an email list that people could sign up if they wanna get it." And one of the big things was learning, like, if you don't know what you're doing, accept the help, right? And ask. Michael Feir: And so I did. Travis Siegel and a bunch of other people were responsible for starting mailing lists, distributing the magazine on that list, telling me how to do that. And then it just kept growing. More and more people joined the list, and it became, I wanna discuss things between issues, so okay, we'll open it up to that. And then it became, well, this is getting a bit fractious. Maybe moderation should happen. I found myself now trying to come up with a charter or constitution for the community of this free magazine. And I had staff join me. I had a volunteer staff. One time it was about four people. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Whoa. Michael Feir: And they all just decided to regularly contribute articles, which was the biggest thing. Getting people to contribute to something if they're not getting paid is tougher. So I just kept it going, and it kept kind of growing. The community kept getting bigger. I kept getting these emails from all over. I got an email from a librarian in Russia that was using it to teach language, to teach English to Russians. And a US senator, Bob Mahoney, apparently one of the blind, I'm not sure if he was the only blind senator, but it's not a high number, and he contacted me about the magazine and was happy to see it. So there were all kinds of situations like that, that suddenly I found that people were reaching back and really cared about what I did. And that kind of kept me caring about [laughs] what I did, so that's why it lasted eight years. [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But 14 countries, my God. Whoa. Michael Feir: Yeah. I didn't expect that, 'cause I had no idea. Like, there was no way to keep... I wasn't asking any money for it. There was the list of email addresses, but I mean, that was huge. No one looked at that really, I didn't think. But obviously someone did, and they said, "Hey, you know, we're in at least 14 countries given the addresses here." I'm like, wow. [laughs] I just never thought it would go that far. And so it was just very rewarding. I learned so much about leadership, about responsibility for one's words. All kinds of things like that. So it taught me a lot. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I like your quotation, if you don't know something, ask. Michael Feir: Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Don't assume that I know it. I don't know it, so I've got to ask. [laughs] Michael Feir: Yep, absolutely. Don't be afraid to ask, and don't be afraid to accept help. If you're doing something for free, don't burn yourself out trying to be the master of absolutely everything. If someone's willing to step up and help, let them, right? [laughs] I mean, that's the other side of it too, is don't let it burn you out. I got burnt out at the end of Audyssey, so that taught me a bit of a stiff lesson in the end about that as well. [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree with you. I mean, accept help freely, but the other thing, you cannot be master of everything. And I just finished learning that through another project that I had started, the John Panarese Memorial Project. Michael Feir: Ah, yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Found myself... Oh, God. I may talk to you about this afterwards, but anyways, let's go on. Michael Feir: All right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's all about you now. So you believe that people learn the best when they are having so much fun that they do not even notice that the learning is happening. Can you explain that philosophy, and what would you say to parents, teachers, and young blind people about the role that play and fun can have in building independence? Michael Feir: Well, when I got my first computer and first Braille display, VersaBraille, it ran on tapes. It was sold as a way for me to get my work done. And that's typically, unfortunately, how blind people are introduced to technology. This will help you do work that you probably are not going to enjoy, but you can do it. So learn this. And it's like, okay, like, this is... Let's compare this to sighted children. When they get computers, most often they're introduced to the new tech through games. The possibilities of computers, the possibilities of programming, it's wrapped in fun for them. Like, it's not all fun. They still have to learn the skills of typing and— But when I first got my computer, one of the teachers thought to give me a disc of games. It had about four or five games on it. Michael Feir: And I took that disc home. One of my favorite games was called The Great Escape. You're in a maze of 100 rooms, and you have to find your way out, and the exit is to the north. The villain or villain is, like, who it was, which is after you. And I spent as little time as possible doing homework, but I spent tons of time trying to beat this game and other games, and that taught me something about typing, 'cause you had to type in the... In that game it was just four letters, but other games you typed in words. Take rope. Tie rope. Things like that. And you started to build typing skills playing these things. So you come back to school on Monday and that fun you had over the weekend is now letting you goof off in typing class because you know what you're doing, and you have more time than anyone else to do that. Michael Feir: So it pays. It teaches you... I learned all kinds of things from games. Everything from using the review of my access technology. If I'm using something and I'm interrupted when I'm listening, I have to be able to go back and hear what was said, otherwise I miss out on that information. So games gave me a reason to learn how to do that, right? So there's all sorts of things like that, that it's much more palatable. I will go a whole weekend trying to figure out who murdered Dan Aykroyd, but don't ask me to do any more homework than the next kid, right? Michael Feir: So if you have new technology, the best thing you can do is find something you want to do with it, something that is actually interesting and hopefully fun for you, rewarding for you. Not some spreadsheet that you don't ever wanna do, but you might have to. Something that you actually want to do with this stuff. And that will turn it from a chore into a means to a delightful end, and that is crucial to really putting in the time it takes to really learn this technology well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So what you're telling me, Mike, is learning is fun, but if it is work it is not good? [laughs] Is that what you're telling me? Michael Feir: I'm saying don't discount the good sides, the good aspects of play. People dismiss play all too easily as total wasted time, and it's not. It's engagement. It's mental stimulation. It's thought-provoking. People will go so much farther if they're having fun and if it's something they want to do than if it's something they feel they're forced to do or something they're told they have to do, you know? So that is the difference. That is where play really can make a difference. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. I never thought of it that way, but it does make sense. Michael Feir: Yeah. It really does. I've seen it both ways. I've had those times when I've had to learn how to do something like math, like finite math. That was just disastrous for me. Right? With my spatial challenges it was just a dismal, dismal time that ate up weekends and hours and hours where everyone else was having fun. And I grew to resent math. I grew to resent the amount of work I had to do to solve stuff that other people could solve much more quickly with sight. And that just, I've never felt great about math ever since. It left a bad taste, you know? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Oh. After a decade of using an iPhone, you spent three and a half years writing Personal Power, the iOS edition, a guide of more than 250,000 words that was released in 2020. You have described this book as closer to a traveler's guidebook than a manual. Why did you choose that approach, and who did you have in mind as your reader? Michael Feir: The person I really wanted to help. Like, there are already manuals out there. If a nerd wants to know how to use an iPhone, there are manuals that are already out there. There are videos. I felt there was plenty of help that was there for people who knew what they were doing. It took a while before it really occurred to me that it was the exact same position as when I did the guide for Windows. History was repeating itself. I kept running into people that didn't know that Siri was not what made an iPhone accessible. They had to learn VoiceOver. Because the people would be given iPhones by well-meaning sighted people who didn't know what they were really doing, and they were told, "Oh, you can talk to it and it'll do things." And that's technically true, but you can't read back. It won't read back a— It'll say, "I found something on the web. Check it out." And then you can't check it out unless you can use VoiceOver to read what's up on the screen. Michael Feir: And other things. VoiceOver is what makes the iPhone accessible. If you don't know it, as good as AI has recently just gotten, you're still limited in a fundamental way from what you'll be able to really do with confidence on that iPhone. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're right. You're right. I mean, you can't go far with Siri. Siri only tells you what's there, but for you to read it, you gotta know VoiceOver. Michael Feir: Yeah. And that's... A lot of people miss that. So I kept running into people who were in that situation, had these great devices, thousand dollar devices, and they were using them for accepting or receiving phone calls, maybe doing some texting, anything that they could manage to get Siri to sort of do well. And I thought, this is wrong. I'm using my iPhone as a replacement computer. In fact, I'd gotten into an argument with a friend, a very interesting fellow, Steve Rogaski, and I were talking about this. And I was telling him, "You know, this really has replaced my laptop in so many ways. I can take this and a Bluetooth keyboard and do pretty much everything that I would want to do on a laptop on my phone." And that was kind of the genesis, those two things. Michael Feir: And then keeping hearing from volunteers, like, there was a volunteer that contacted me about someone up north. Joanne was her name, and she couldn't use her iPhone very well. She didn't realize that there were programs like Kurzweil, the Kurzweil Reader. You could aim it at a pamphlet on the table and take a picture, and in seconds it would start to read your community bulletin for you out loud, and she had no idea that that existed. So that was kind of the final straw, when I realized how much people didn't know. I had to do something, and I started writing it with that in mind. Michael Feir: And then of course, as I was closing in on finishing at my own pace, the pandemic hit. And it was, oh my goodness. Okay, a lot of people are suddenly going to be pushed into doing everything online. Maybe I should hurry up and finish this. And so I did that. I finished it very quickly. And around that time as well was when Kelly and Company was getting going, early as I was making the guide. So that also, I was involved in that. And so a lot of things, when the pandemic was just starting, I published the book and it spread really quickly. One of the first emails I got was from an old lady in England. Michael Feir: And she basically was in a nursing home. And I guess people were really busy. There was kind of a atmosphere of panic about this pandemic. No one wanted to go and help her find this ring. And she was able to, from reading my guide, she was able to get the Be My Eyes app and was able to use that to then get someone sighted at a safe distance to look through her phone's camera and help find that ring. So you get an email like that and you know you've done something worth doing. That just makes your day. It's basically why I keep doing what I doing, for interactions like that. Knowing that I put something in the world that made that much difference for people is hugely helpful, given what we're all going through. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I have to tell you, like I said, and I'd like to talk to you about this offline. I started a project in memory of the late John Panarese. I promised him, I promised him. He died of cancer almost two years ago. I promised him that I would really try to follow in his footsteps to bring those who have lost their sight and those losing it closer to the iPhone so that they would use it in different ways. But just listening to you, I think I've been up the wrong track here, and I'd like to talk to you about this after if you're interested. Michael Feir: Certainly. Certainly. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So let's go on. The second and third editions of your book are also available as audiobooks narrated with AI voices from ElevenLabs, thanks to the help of Harrison Tu. And the latest narration took only about two hours to produce. Michael Feir: Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: As artificial intelligence moves into our phones and into our daily lives, where do you see it helping blind iPhone users and most, and what concerns should we keep in mind? Michael Feir: Well, AI, the thing that I'm realizing is AI is... It's a huge change to suddenly have... What Apple has done is offered, its version is basically set up to be private, to not harvest your data for Apple's benefit, but to be a tool that you've paid for by getting an iPhone that is focused on helping you do your things. So basically, I trust that somewhat more than I trust a lot of the other AIs, just on that basic principle going in. Michael Feir: But you still, with these AIs, people should keep in mind that it can be really helpful for basic things. Like I use it every night to make sure that my hearing aids are charging in their charger. My charger has two little lights, green lights. And you can't feel the heat off them or anything like that. They're tiny little things. So the only way to tell, I could call a sighted person with FaceTime or Be My Eyes, and I used to do that. And they would watch me fiddle with those things until finally we got both lights on. And then God help anyone who bunched my desk and caused even the slightest shift. That would throw them off. So now I can use my phone and the AI just built right into the phone, and VoiceOver scene description, to quickly check and make sure that, yes, there are two green lights on, and I don't need to involve anyone else, and everything's happening on my device. Michael Feir: So that's huge. Things like that, getting descriptions, getting— New notification available... reading texts. You can get it to read text if you want, documents. Those are hugely helpful. So that's the kind of thing that AI can really help with. [beep] Record left, right. But when it comes to other things, you have to be more careful, and you always have to check that the AI has done... If you ask it to do something, make sure, double-check that it has done what you think it has done. It can hallucinate and give you wrong information very confidently. So I said, "Yo, send this message to Sarah." And it said, "All right, I've sent it," and it never sent the message. And it went back and forth. Finally, it did. This happens more with email. I've had it happen a couple of times trying to send emails, and you always have to go into your email program and just double... Has that message been sent? Michael Feir: Right? Always check, because it's one thing if it hallucinates that there are 16 buttons instead of 18 on a Bluetooth speaker you're trying to figure out. That's pretty low stakes. But if it gets something wrong about the medication that you're grabbing off a counter full of bottles, the more important, the higher the stakes, the more you should check, either with more than one AI or, if things are really life and death, get sighted help, right? I mean, that's kind of what... It's not a perfect thing. It's kinda like GPS, can get you to the last mile, but then how do you navigate inside the mall, right? That's the kind of thing. So these things are not perfect. It's very helpful, extremely helpful in a lot of ways, but just keep in mind, it doesn't understand really what it's doing. It understands patterns, right? Michael Feir: So it knows that glass and break are associated often, so glass can break theoretically, sure. But it doesn't understand what shards are really. It would have to look for other descriptions and sort of build its reasoning from patterns of words and build it up that way. So it's not really an understanding of things like you and I would understand it. And that's something people need to keep in mind. And then, of course, there's privacy, right? We get a lot of benefits from these tools, but they can also be used to do, unfortunately, some harm, and we have to bear... We're as responsible as everyone else to try and prevent that from happening, right? So that's another thing that we have to kinda keep in mind, I think. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, just listening to the enthusiasm and excitement in your voice and just learning the fact that it's not all about asking Siri, who will tell you where to go and what to do, but you can't read it back, so you have to learn VoiceOver. I never really thought of it in that way, and wow. [laughs] Michael Feir: Yeah. And of course, now there's a tutorial built right in. You can go into settings, VoiceOver. Settings, accessibility, VoiceOver, and then in there you'll find tutorial, and you should go through that tutorial and learn the basics at least of what VoiceOver, what gestures do what and why. It's good at explaining why you might wanna use all the different gestures. At least gives you a basic reason why. Michael Feir: So I think Apple did. It took them 10 years too long. This should've been there right from day one. I don't know how they missed that, but thankfully now it's here, and anyone that can run iOS 27, which goes right back to the iPhone 11, will be able to now use that tutorial. So if there's nothing else you take away from this, know that that tutorial is there, and go there and make use of it. [laughs] There's so much you can do with the iPhone if you just, once you've learned the basics of VoiceOver, your life will be much easier. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: For the entire run of Kelly and Company on AMI-audio from 2016 until 2025, you produced a weekly segment about audio entertainment and accessibility technology. Accessibility technology, sorry. How did that opportunity come about, and what did you enjoy most about sharing your discoveries with listeners every week? Michael Feir: Well, it came about 'cause I had started my guide, and also hooked up with my wife Sara, and she is part of a group that does a reunion at W. Ross Macdonald School for former students of that school in Brantford, Ontario. And I was invited along to attend that reunion. I had actually attended W. Ross for a very brief two to maybe two and a half years of the start of my schooling. So I could have gone anyway, but I had no idea it happened. It was even a thing until I'd met Sara. So she thought I should go, and so we did. And during that weekend, I met Kelly, and we had conversations. And he really was looking for contributors to his show. He needed regular contributors to fill out the hour that his show was gonna be every day. So that's a lot of people. So I was happy to do that. And I thought it would help me basically build the next edition, right? If I worked on sections, and then I talked about what I worked on with every other segment, I kinda did. Michael Feir: So I tried to split it up so that I had every week there'd be either a technology segment or an entertainment section. And that would give me long enough to sort of make sure that in both of those buckets there'd be something there. So I was always looking and getting audio dramas and different things to cover. So it did have a cost, but I was getting stuff I would've wanted to get anyway. And [laughs] so it was the first thing I was kinda paid for regularly, which just felt great. Just doing something and getting— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Paid. Michael Feir: That paid for it was, yeah. But I would've done it for free. [laughs] They could have had me... Maybe not at the pace they wanted, but I would've done at least some for free. But yeah, so I kept going for as long as that would go. And that turned out to be about eight years. So it was quite a long run, and I learned a lot, and I think I did a lot of good helping people learn their technology and know what entertainment is out there. 'Cause if suddenly you've lost your vision, you don't know about necessarily all the audio dramas and books and things. Podcasts, internet radio communities that are out there. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Wow. Gosh. [laughs] Now, every edition of Personal Power has been given away free, and you have never charged for it. In 2024, when your friend Jonathan Mosen organized a fundraiser so that you could get a new iPhone and write about its newest features firsthand, it was fully funded in about five hours. Why is it so important that the book remains free? And what did that outpouring of support from the community mean to you? Michael Feir: Basically, being on ODSP, Ontario Disability Social Support, there are a lot of rules around that, and in subsidized housing, you have to be very careful what you accept money for. And so if I were going to get an iPhone, I could never have justified buying an iPhone Pro myself. It would have to be a basic one. So basically, if I were gonna, I had a plan to do this without that generosity. I'm very glad I didn't have to implement that plan. I just never thought that people would care enough to really contribute like that much money. I thought maybe in a month there might be barely enough or something. But no. It was like I went to sleep, I woke up. I should have gotten coffee first, didn't, and started looking through my social media, and it's like, "Oh, yeah, we got enough. We're closing down the funding." I'm like, "What?" Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What? Yeah. Michael Feir: How is this possible in a world this full of unemployed blind people who can't find work? How has this just happened? And I'm so thankful for those people. It is so vindicating. I never expected any recompense for my work. It's in honor of a very good man, John Morgan, who stepped in and helped us. He's a philanthropist, he was. He's unfortunately passed on before I could send him my first book. I was gonna show him, get him to see that I dedicated it to him, because he stepped in. Just a really nice guy that was retired and thought he'd help blind people all over the GTA. And Sara and I were beneficiaries of that generosity. And you don't meet people like him every day. He's one in a million. Michael Feir: And he always said, "You know, you gotta help. If you're in a position of fortune and strength, you have to help those less fortunate. It's just your duty as part of life." And his actions, like helping us and helping other people, when he brought me in to advise him sometimes and help, if he thought I could maybe give an opinion that would help or maybe steer him in the right direction to help another blind fellow or something, I would always, always do that if I could. And that generosity, that sense of it adds to life to find ways to give back, is so true. Michael Feir: And it was all because of, when I was a young 20-something year old, he came over to ask if I would be willing to go with him to help another blind person learn how to use a computer. I happened to say yes instead of no. And that relationship led all the way from that beginning to where we are now, with me keeping this— It needs to be free. He never asked anything in return, but just acknowledgement of what he did. And I don't ever want a barrier between what I'm enjoying myself so much and having other people be able to enjoy the same thing. If they've invested in an iPhone, the lack of information should not be what stops them ever from enjoying it, from making maximum use of it. It's a big investment. It shouldn't just be relegated to basic stuff. There's so much it can do, and so much I've gained from it. Michael Feir: Shopping independence, freedom of who I communicate with, games, entertainment, books, especially books. I've got so many books on my iPhone, and they all just fit in my hand, and it's just glorious. And I want everyone to be able to do that if they want to. I don't demand that they do everything I do. I expect people to jump around in my book. I didn't design it to be read start to finish, although people keep doing that. [laughs] So I hope people find what they need from it, and I try to include as wide a range of stuff in it as I can so that there's something that will hopefully hook into your interests. Whether that be music, games, podcasts, internet radio, community, online communities, whatever it is, and you can find something to get started with and enjoying. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I wish, I really wish there were more people who had similar sentiments to yours, and these are sentiments that I also share. I came into this world with nothing. I'm going to leave this world with nothing. But I want to give back something before I leave. And as the clock winds down, I have this question for you. You are now writing the fourth edition of Personal Power, which you expect to exceed 400,000 words and to be ready for Global Accessibility Awareness Day in May 2027. What will this new edition add, and what else lies ahead for you? Michael Feir: Well, the new edition is, one of the big reasons I wrote it was to sort of help people with this transition to where finally now, two years later than we expected, we're getting our hands on Siri AI. And Apple Intelligence is being integrated into everything. There's the new things in VoiceOver recognition that can describe scenes and describe what's on the screen. Images on the screen. You can get all kinds of information, ask questions about, have it all done on device. There's so much power there. So it's gonna contain that. I'm still learning [laughs] my way around there, what all the new things are. Michael Feir: It also contains a lot of sections to help people. It sort of coalesces information that might be a bit more scattered elsewhere. For example, how to write on an iPhone. I have a whole section just dedicated to how to deal with text, copy, cut, paste, select. All of that kind of stuff. Spell check. You have things on security. I have one section, for example, on a primer for people who might be in danger. So if you need to access 911 with your iPhone, if you need... If you're being stalked and you have to basically, if you're sharing information with someone and the relationship goes south, and you feel in danger, Apple has built in tools to help you extract yourself from that situation safely and cut off information from people you don't wanna have it anymore. So I talk you through that. What to do if your iPhone is stolen, right? All that kind of stuff. Michael Feir: So there are things like that in the book, sections that sort of coalesce information to hopefully help beginners learn what they need to know most urgently, and then go into the bigger sections for more depth if they want. So there's a number of those through the book. There's more in Apple. Health, the games, updating to the section on games. A lot's happened in that space that I didn't expect. And it's happening right now. So I [laughs] didn't think I'd have much to add until, like, maybe in July, I started to realize, oh, things are happening here. It's vibe coding. People are starting to make their own apps. Same with reading apps. So all of that is kind of the changing landscape. I'm always trying to make sure people are aware of what's changing in the environment that they're in, and what new forces are at play behind the scenes that are going to help them have more options at their disposal than they used to. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you for this interview. [upbeat music] Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time. [upbeat music]

🎙️ Curb to Cabin Canada Episode #1: Interview with Steve Dawson, Senior Operations Manager, Fnyx Aviation Services https://donnajodhan.com/curb-to-cabin-canada-10-20-2026/ In this inaugural episode of Curb to Cabin Canada, host Donna J. Jodhan speaks with Steve Dawson, senior operations manager at Fnyx Aviation Services, whose team provides passenger assistance at Toronto Pearson. Steve says a niece with spina bifida drew him to the work, and that his company assisted 887 people with restricted mobility in May 2021 and almost 36,000 this past May, with Pearson handling over 4,000 wheelchairs a day. He explains who is responsible when something goes wrong: his surrey and wheelchair replenishment division, contracted by the airport authority, and his PRM division, which handles wheelchair service for 27 airlines, while Air Canada still runs its own wheelchair service and uses his team for its Curbside Assistance Program. Donna, who is blind and flies, shares her own experiences, from agents arriving with wheelchairs she did not want to agents who now ask whether she would like a wheelchair or an escort. Steve describes how airlines flag blind travellers with the BLND code, how his staff are trained to ask "How can I help you best?" instead of assuming, the Transport Canada accessibility training every agent must pass, and what a blind traveller dropped at the wrong door can do to reach help. He closes with the real estate and training challenges still facing Pearson, and says they are a lot closer to the finish line but not at the end of the journey. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Greetings from Toronto, and welcome to Curb to Cabin Canada. What really happens to blind and low-vision passengers when they fly? Your host, Donna J. Jodhan, is a lifelong blind advocate and law graduate whose landmark Charter case in 2010 compelled the Government of Canada to make its websites accessible to all Canadians, not just those with sight. Each episode follows one part of the air travel journey from curb to cabin, and asks the airlines, airports, and agencies a single question: Is this working? Donna serves on accessibility advisory committees in the aviation sector. None of them pays for this programme, and none sees a question before it is asked. Curb to Cabin Canada is presented to you by Donna J. Jodhan, with support from sponsors to be announced. None of our sponsors have any say in what this programme reports. Now, let's dive in with your host, Donna J. Jodhan. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, everybody, and welcome to the very first episode of Curb to Cabin Canada, the podcast which would talk about what really happens when disabled Canadians travel, and what it takes to make every step of that journey work. I'm Donna J. Jodhan. I'm blind, I fly, and I know how much can go wrong between the curb and the cabin. Today, I'm here with Steve Dawson, senior operations manager at Fnyx Aviation, I hope I got that right, Services, whose team provides passengers assistance at Toronto Pearson. Steve, welcome to the show. Steve Dawson: Thank you very much for the invitation, Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're welcome. All right, so let's get started. Steve, you spent 19 years at Scotiabank, ran express operations for Aramex, and worked in sales before joining AAS Canada at Toronto Pearson in 2018 to manage assistance— 15:04 PM… for passengers with reduced mobility. What drew you to this work— Cabin temperature, 57 degrees Fahrenheit… and what from those earlier careers turned out to matter most when the person that you are serving is a traveller with a disability? Steve Dawson: Oh, now that's an excellent question, Donna. I have a niece who's been in a wheelchair since birth and she has spina bifida, and she's severely disabled. And I've spent a great deal of time with her, taking her to hockey games, baseball games, travelling with her, and I was amazed at the wide spectrum or wide levels of service available. Some places were absolutely outstanding to make sure that every single need she had was taken care of, and others fell rather short of the mark. And I found it very discouraging to see that we weren't maintaining a consistent level of service here in Canada, taking care of people who need some assistance, some mobility assistance. And the company I was working for at the time, I was working in a different division for them, for TBM Services, as their TTC division, and I saw some of this as working as a contractor for the TTC as well, where again, the people who need a little more mobility assistance weren't getting the consistent help they needed. So when the company approached me and asked me if I'd like to help start up AAS Canada at the airport, I was one of the first eight managers and I jumped at the opportunity. I said, "Sure, I would absolutely love to." And that's what got me interested more than anything. Needless to say, the pay that was offered didn't discourage me either, but in my heart of hearts, it's what I wanted to do, to see if I could make a difference. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What I find is that those of us who are close to a person with a disability, whether it's a friend or a family member, we seem to understand much more quickly what is needed. Would you agree with that? Steve Dawson: I agree 100%. It's almost like a different language, and if you have somebody who needs assistance in your life, that's immersion and you're immersed in it, and you understand how the smallest thing can certainly make a big, big difference in the experience. And I'm sure you've experienced that yourself when travelling. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. In May of 2021, Toronto Pearson published a staff story called "Meet Steve," about a manager of services of passengers with reduced mobility at its accessibility partner, AAS Canada, crediting well-trained team that serves travellers with physical and hidden disabilities. Was that you? And in the years since, what has changed most for travellers with disabilities at Pearson, and what has not changed enough? Steve Dawson: Wow, has it been over five years already since I did that? Yes, that was me. [laughs] I can't believe it's been five years already. That was certainly me. And yeah, a lot has changed since then. Certainly the biggest thing that has changed is the volumes of passengers with restricted mobility who need assistance. As an example, in that month, in May 2021, my company assisted 887 people with restricted mobility. The following May, we assisted over 13,000. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, wow. Steve Dawson: And then this past May, we assisted almost 36,000 in the month. So the volumes have gone up. Now, keep in mind, there's a COVID effect in there, too, as well, Donna, needless to say. But the amount of growth with the aging demographic in Canada, of course, is a big part of it, but there's more to it than that as well. There's a great deal of international travellers who prefer to use the wheelchair as a device in order to help them with wayfinding or if there's a language problem, to get assistance from the aircraft door to the curb, as you allude to. And in a lot of cases, it's elderly people who certainly need the wheelchair, but there's certainly plenty of cases where that's not the case. And it could be argued that this could be distracting from the people who genuinely have accessibility issues. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But I tend to agree with that, but it's amazing how this has grown because I think with the rapidly aging population, along with more people who are gaining confidence in travelling, persons with a disability or a need, this has grown immensely, hasn't it? Steve Dawson: Oh. Pearson Airport handles over 4,000 wheelchairs daily. Pearson Airport, and that's all the carriers combined. 4,000 wheelchairs daily, and it's staggering. Clearly when the airport was designed, it wasn't designed with 4,000 daily passengers with accessibility needs in mind. [laughs] And to the GTAA's credit, they've started their LIFT programme, which is updating a lot of the infrastructure to make it better, but they're playing catch-up right now. But right now, with the number of passengers who need special assistance, as an airport and as a company to some extent, we're still playing catch-up for the number of people who need the help. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Now, Fnyx describes its aviation work as passenger services delivered, and I quote, "with dignity, coordination, and control," unquote. Dignity is a word that blind travellers hear a great deal of. What does dignity look like in practice when your team assists a blind or low-vision traveller, and how would you know if it were missing? Steve Dawson: No, I think I can answer that well by telling you a story, Donna. When we started up our passengers with restricted mobility division and we inherited employees from another contractor who's handling seven different airlines. And a company called TGAS, and very nice people. We inherited all their staff. And the first week I was working, I saw a person getting off the aircraft with a white cane, and the first thing the attendant did was open a wheelchair for them. And I thought, "I have a lot of work to do [laughs] with these people." Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Yeah. Steve Dawson: And then within that, within two week, I saw another one of my agents that I'd inherited petting a service dog sort of thing. I went, "Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness." So obviously we had to revamp the training severely for the whole division. And we've done a pretty good job, and there's always room for improvement, but I remember very well those first three months, the things that we seen were just staggering to me. And when we talk about dignity, what I teach employees who join us, if you have somebody who has a visual disability sort of thing, listen to them. Don't assume. They know better than you do what kind of assistance they need, and so ask, "How can I help you best?" And as you're aware, Donna, some people would like to put the hand on the shoulder. Some people would like you to take your arm. Other people just want you to walk ahead of them and follow along, right? And they can follow along, service dog or no service dog, and they'll follow right behind you. But I think a lot of people make assumptions when they're dealing with people with disabilities and, particularly with the visually impaired, frankly, that they should not be making. [laughs] And they… I've seen… I literally, those first few months we were starting up here, I saw agents take someone's arm and put their arm on their arm sort of thing without even asking first. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Yes. Steve Dawson: And I was like, "Oh my goodness. Oh." [laughs] And I knew I was at the start of a very long road then, but I feel we've come a long way down the road since those days. [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, gosh. Steve Dawson: And I'm very, very proud of the management team I have in place now here. But those first scary days in 2019 were scary indeed. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I have my own story to tell, and I have seen really, really big leaps of improvement. When I first noticed all this was… you had the agent coming with the wheelchair, and after about three or four times, I said, "I don't want any dot, dot wheelchair. Do you understand me?" Steve Dawson: [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And poor agents, I know they meant well, but they just didn't know. Today, you have agents who approach me saying, "Would you like a wheelchair or would you like me to escort you?" Right? And so that is big improvement in my books. I think it's great. Steve Dawson: Oh. Glad to hear that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And yeah, and it— Steve Dawson: Very glad to hear that. But yeah, it's very concerning when people make an assumption that's not there. And yeah, that was one of the things that was right when I started that the crew that I inherited really, really weren't well versed in training with the visually impaired. And they were automatically bringing the wheelchair out from the gate. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Yeah. Steve Dawson: That might make your job a little bit easier, but that's not the way we do that here, so [laughs] fortunately, I'm glad to hear… I appreciate the positive feedback from you that there's been some improvement in that side. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, definite improvement. And the agents, they want to please. They want to do what is right, which is a great attitude. I really, really love that. You know? Steve Dawson: Yeah, with my HR department, I train them. I say, "What kind of people are we looking for to hire for it?" And say, "Well, people with aviation experience," etc. And I said, "Aviation experience means nothing to me. I want people with empathy. I want people who really care. I want you asking behavioural questions of people and asking if you saw a 90-year-old woman trying to cross the road, what would you do about it?" Sort of thing. And who'd answer, "Of course, I'd run over and I'd help make sure they get across the road safely." And I mean, Donna, I can teach anybody to drive one of our golf carts. I can teach anybody to push a wheelchair. But having people with empathy, if God hasn't put that in already, I'm not too sure I can add that. I can train them that side of it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I agree with that. If they don't have it in them, you're not gonna get anywhere. You know? You could try to teach them or bring a horse to water, whatever you wanna say. But it just isn't going to happen. So you're gonna find— Steve Dawson: One question I like to ask new employees, I say, "Tell me about your relationship with your grandparents." And you'd be amazed the stuff that comes up. They say, "Oh, they're such a pain. They want me to do everything [laughs] for them." Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Steve Dawson: And I'm not exaggerating at all. Now, the ones we hire, one say, "Oh, I go over and I cook meals for them and Anna a couple of times a week," and help— sometimes she needs help to go shopping. And I'm thinking, "Okay, this is somebody I want working with my company, for sure." But behavioural questions that determine how empathetic somebody is goes a long way, and we've been very fortunate to hire… 99%, I think we've hired some very— people who really do give a damn about the elderly folks and people who need a mobility assistance. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I've definitely seen big leaps of improvement, and I'm so pleased. And I love the agents every time you send them out to me. I don't want to mention certain names, but, oh, what the hell, Brent. Brent is my most favourite one. You have Christina and Sophia and, oh, so many others. They're great. They're great. Steve Dawson: Yep, and we're very fortunate. We have a very good staff, a staff that gives a damn, as I implied. And that goes right up to management. I'm very, very careful when I hire managers. It's… the managers have that attitude, 'cause that filters down to the staff as well. And I ask managers when I'm interviewing them that same question, "Oh, tell me about your relationship with your grandparents." Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I love that. Steve Dawson: And I mean, I had a very close relationship with my grandparents. They've long since passed, of course, but I think that really taught me a lot about assisting folks who need mobility assistance because they need a lot of help. And fortunately, I had four brothers helping me. I'm not gonna take all of the credit, [laughs] but we, as a family, we're always very close and taking care of one another, and certainly of the elders in the family. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: As you say that, my mom fell three years ago, and I'm just telling tales out of school here, but she has caregivers, and you could tell some of them are only… And they say it, "I'm only here to pay the bills." Steve Dawson: Ugh. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's terrible. Steve Dawson: I've seen that before. My mother has a PSW who comes and visits her a few times a week, and some of them are exceptional, and then some of them are like the person you just described, saying, "Pfft, I'm just here for a paycheck," sort of thing. Yeah, and in that kind of job— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's terrible. Steve Dawson: That's disastrous, as you can imagine. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Gosh. Now, Pearson's website tells travellers that their airline is responsible for mobility assistance from curb to boarding. And now the Canadian Transportation Agency's guidance says that the airport as terminal operator is responsible for helping a traveller get from the curb to check-in unless the airline provides that help itself, and that the airport can be held responsible if the help falls short. For the listeners who have never thought about who is really in charge, okay, where does Fnyx sit in that picture? Who hires your team, and who do you answer to when something goes wrong? Steve Dawson: Now, that's an excellent question. That's a really well-worded question. We have two divisions who are involved in mobility assistance here. When I first started, the division I first started in, it's called the surreys and wheelchair replenishment division. And their job is to drive the golf carts around and to stock wheelchairs in all the corrals, make sure that we always have plenty of wheelchairs available, and other mobility devices, eagle lifts, aisle chairs, and the like. And that's contracted by the GTA. And so that division, we have licensing agreements we have to meet. There's financial penalties if we do not meet them. If we leave a wheelchair corral empty for a period of time, we're paying a financial penalty for it. Or if we go half an hour without a surrey driving by a pickup area, we'll pay a financial penalty for that. And that's our one division. Now, the second division we started up, that I started up, I was asked to take charge of it, that started in September 2019, and that's our PRM division, Passengers with Restricted Mobility division. And then they're responsible for pushing the wheelchairs literally from the garage right to the aircraft door, from the aircraft door right to the garage. And we started with seven airlines here, and we've gotten huge, and we've expanded significantly over the last seven to eight years. We have 27 airlines now that we're handling the wheelchair service for. So since we started up, we've added most of the big carriers, Delta, WestJet, Air Transat. Steve Dawson: When we started, only three airlines were doing their own wheelchair service. Right now, Air Canada is the only airline that still services their own passengers' wheelchair service. Delta and WestJet used to do their own services. We convinced them to let us give it a try, that we thought we could give them a better service, and we've been very successful. WestJet's very pleased with the service we're giving. And yeah, it's been a very good success story, and I think it alludes to what we were talking about before, hiring the right people to do the work for us. But who's responsible? Ultimately, yeah, the airline is responsible to make sure the passengers get to the aircraft door. I'm their contractor for 27 of the airlines here. And so I'm responsible to make sure it happens. But ultimately, the airline is the one held accountable if it doesn't happen. Now, the GTA has their own certain responsibilities, as you mentioned before, with making sure that passengers who are being dropped off at the curb have a viable path for getting to their check-in counter or getting to where they need to be. But for any of the 27 airlines that our PRM division handles, certainly the buck stops with me and I take full accountability for any failures along the way, hopefully few and far between. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm a little or a wee bit confused when it comes to Air Canada in that I was told that when you get to the terminal, they are responsible from curb to check-in to the aircraft. Yet when you call them, they didn't seem to understand what it fully meant. And I was really disheartened and disappointed in their ability to understand what it means to pick someone up at the curb. So I started dealing with your people. And what I do is that I always call the duty manager before, and they are there when I get there. They help me to check in. And from check-in, if it's a non-Air Canada… If I'm going with Air Canada, Air Canada takes over. If I'm not, like Air Transat or Caribbean Airlines, your people take over. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So is that correct? So who do I call? I mean, I got into the bad habit of calling the duty manager to come pick me up if it's— Steve Dawson: [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: An Air Canada flight. What should I do? Steve Dawson: Yeah, there is a phone number on the website that you can direct to call for curbside pickup or to pre-arrange curbside pickup, in fact. Say, "Yeah, I'm gonna be there on this date at this time. Can you please have a wheelchair…" So you call the number. It's a GTA phone number. They'll direct you to either Air Canada or they'll direct you to, if it's one of our 27 airlines, us or one of our three competitors if it's one of their airlines. They'll direct you to that particular contractor. But the majority of them we're handling. And so you'd probably get put through to our dispatch and our dispatch agent would take the information and have the pickup arranged for you to meet you at the curb or the parking lot or UP Express or wherever you need to be picked up from. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: As lately as a few weeks ago, I was travelling to Mexico with Air Canada, so I just phoned your duty manager. They were there. They took me to check in and then after that the Air Canada folks took over. Now, for me, that works. But with Caribbean Airlines you know that you're going with your agents from curb to cabin. Steve Dawson: Right. And just to be clear, Air Canada has a special programme that they pay for through the GTA. It's called the Curbside Assistance Program. GTA offers this to all airlines. And it's run through the same division I have that with the golf cart drivers and the wheelchair stockers. They do. So they're wearing the maroon-coloured uniforms. And they're the ones who do curbside assistance for Air Canada. So if Air Canada, they'll send us an email. They'll say, "Hey, we'd like you to pick up this person at this time in this location at this post" sort of thing. Terminal one, it'd probably be post nine, post 21, or post 37, for instance. And now I admit the downflow of information is sometimes inconsistent. And we're trying to work out some of the bugs on that, getting a quicker flow of information from Air Canada. But it's been a great partnership. I think we've really helped them a lot, improving their curbside performance. Basically, on arrivals we're responsible from outside the baggage hall to wherever the passenger's going. And then for departures, from pickup from wherever, and bring them right to— they have their own special area at aisle eight there for passengers who need mobility assistance, and we take them right there for check-in. And then Air Canada takes over from that point. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think when I arrived this time, the Air Canada agent was at the door of the plane, took me all the way to the exit, I believe. I think. Steve Dawson: And some of their agents prefer to do that rather than hand over to somebody else [laughs] for a variety of reasons. Like, yeah, they wanna see the journey through to the end. And I'll be generous and say that out of the goodness of their heart, they've been with you that far, they wanna get you right to the end of your journey. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, I agree. Now, blind travellers have described flagging their blindness in advance, seeing it noted on their ticket, and still receiving different help on different legs of the same trip. When an airline sends a request to your dispatch, what type of information actually reaches you? Does it tell you that the traveller is blind and would like a guide, or only that assistance is needed? And what happens when the booking does not match the person who arrives? Steve Dawson: Yeah. All of our airlines provide us with pre-alerts. Usually the day before they'll say, "Here's the flights that are coming. Here's the kind of assistance that's needed for this particular flight." And most airlines are pretty good about if they have a visually impaired passenger, they put in that SSR code for the passenger. BLND is the SSR code. So that we're made aware, hey, this person's visually impaired, they'll need extra special assistance, and we're prepared to assist in any way. Now, there are some airlines that are perhaps not as forthcoming with the information, and we're surprised— aircraft arrives and somebody comes out— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Steve Dawson: And they have a white cane with them sort of thing. And my team is trained to recognize, "Oh, well, hang on. How can I help you best? Do you want some help up the bridge here? You wanna put your hand on my shoulder? What would work best for you?" And we go from there. But yeah, that's a constant struggle, to be honest, at the airport, to make sure that the destination here in Toronto is getting the proper information from the origin airport. And some airports are very, very good about giving you pre-alert, "Oh, we had to… We boarded this visually impaired passenger. She's gonna need assistance when she arrives there." And some airlines, WestJet is certainly spectacular at that. I believe Air Canada is very, very good at that as well. A lot of the larger carriers. Some of the smaller carriers struggle a little bit with it. Steve Dawson: But for the most part we do get a pre-alert. But there's certainly times where we have no idea, but that's okay. All of our agents are trained. Or if a passenger gets off the aircraft, as an example, and does not have a white cane, but they'll usually say, "Yeah, I'm visually impaired. I'll need some extra assistance," and my staff know how to handle it from that point on. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I've certainly seen a lot of improvement, and especially so when you land and you have to go through, I think it's CBSA and the passport marshals. You have to talk with them or whatever. I've seen an improvement from when the agent was hesitant to help because they were told that they shouldn't help, and the CBSA personnel really didn't come up to mark on it. But now the agents are a lot more… What's the word I'm looking for? They know what they're doing, they know how to help, and they take me right to the passport officer, and you get things done. So I've seen great improvement in that area. Steve Dawson: Oh, that's great to hear. And from my side and from CBSA side too. Certainly, it's a key part of working in aviation. As you know, previously as a manager with Scotiabank, I was originally trained in disability services then. And incredibly as, what was that, 20 years ago now, a lot of that stuck with me [laughs] and I still use it to this day if I'm being honest. So I've been very fortunate that way. But yeah, we've worked very, very hard to refine our training and to improve our training. And whenever, if we get a complaint from a passenger or an airline, and the first thing we ask is, "Okay, what can we do to make sure this doesn't happen again?" And I'll meet with… We have two training managers, and I'll meet with them and I'll talk about, okay, how are we training this? Is there a better way we can do this? What can we do to make sure that all of our agents are aware of this and are not doing this down the road? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I've seen definite improvement. Definite, definite. Steve Dawson: Yeah. Really glad to hear that. And it's good to know all the blood, sweat, and tears is paying off. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Steve Dawson: [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, the Canadian Transportation Agency says that one of the most common complaints from blind travellers who ask for curbside help is being offered a wheelchair instead of someone to guide them, and it advises staff to ask rather than assume. Now, when one of your attendants meets a blind traveller, what are they taught to say first, and what happens when the traveller declines a wheelchair and asks to take the attendant's elbow instead? Steve Dawson: Yeah, and I think I alluded to this before how when we first started up, this was a challenge for us. That… I mean, well, 99.8% of the passengers we assist require a wheelchair. So I think by rote, they're grabbing a wheelchair. But we've managed to train them to understand that, if you're pre-alerted for a visually impaired passenger or for that matter, if you see a white cane or a service dog, the first thing they ask is, "How can I help you best?" And I always train when I'm talking to new agents, and so my training managers do the same, is that these people have travelled before. It's likely not their first time on an aircraft. So they can tell you better than you can tell them how to assist them best. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Yeah. Steve Dawson: So listen to them and say, "How can I help you?" And listen carefully. And I still occasionally, full disclosure, I still occasionally find my guys opening a wheelchair when there's a visually impaired passenger coming in. I say, "What are you doing?" [laughs] I said, "Do you remember your training?" Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Steve Dawson: So it's a process that has to be managed because as I alluded to, the number of visual impaired passengers we're handling in comparison to the number of wheelchair passengers with disabilities that we're handling is quite small. But you always have to be prepared to help them. And we really emphasize that both in our initial training and also our recurring training every two years as well. They're trained in that as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's not an easy task. It really is not. And I guess sometimes agents have to use their heads or they have to remember what they've been taught. And you know what? They want to do good and they want to do it well, and they're under pressure, too. It's a time constraint. Steve Dawson: Absolutely. There's always time pressures. Well, it's aviation. There's always time pressures, of course. And what's funny, when we all started in our initial training, for instance, we're taught how to assist severely disabled people get out of the aircraft, get into an aisle chair, or how to get them off the aircraft into their wheelchair using an eagle lift, for instance. And we're all trained it. But what I quickly discovered the first couple of years we were doing this is that people be trained on using an eagle lift, and then it'd be two years before they use it. They'd have no idea what they were doing. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, gosh. Yeah. Steve Dawson: So we initiated a programme— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Steve Dawson: Passenger transfer specialists, and we have the same 28 people doing this every day at the airport, doing the carry offs and carry on passengers using the eagle lift. And so they're doing it every day, and we find we've had a much better result that way. I've looked at coming up if we could have a separate team specifically for visually impaired passengers, but we just don't have enough volume in order to justify it at this point to have a separate batch. But that's how we handle it for, again, people with limited or almost no mobility who need assistance entering out of the aircraft. We decided, we have over 300 agents working for us, so they're all trained to do it, but they weren't doing it often enough to really— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: To remember. Steve Dawson: Retain it. Exactly. And so with our passenger transfer specialist programme we started three years ago, four years ago, we were getting much, much better results. I used to fairly often get complaints about the assistance in helping such passengers who need special assistance right off the aircraft, and now I almost never get complaints about that. We have a well-trained team now that handles all of them for our company. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wonderful. Wonderful. When the frontline workers at AAS Canada Core Services at Pearson ratified their union agreement in 2022, the union described them as wheelchair stockers, surrey drivers, okay, lead hands and curbside wheelchair attendants. Canada's accessibility rules that assistance includes guiding a person who is blind, not only pushing a wheelchair. Where does guiding on foot fit into your staffing and job description? What training in sighted guide technique do your attendants receive, and are blind people involved in designing or delivering that training? Steve Dawson: Yeah. I'll break that down a bit. When the union described that as a job, they were just doing a quick summary. If you read our collective bargaining agreement for both our divisions, and under the duties of employees, it says, "Assist all special needs pax from X to Y," sort of thing. All special needs pax, which implies obviously visually impaired or people with perhaps a mental disability. We're involved in all of those. The union summary of it described them as wheelchair stockers, surrey drivers. We're all very well aware [laughs] that we're here to assist anybody who needs our help, has any kind of accessibility concerns. With regards to our training, during our initial training and also our recurring training, all of our agents are required to pass Transport Canada's accessibility assistance training, which you're probably familiar with. It's a seven-module course. One of the modules is dedicated strictly to visually impaired passengers, and then they're tested on it, and they have to score 85% in order to work for us. And so again, they go through retraining. If they don't pass first time, they go through retraining. They get a second crack at it. And if they don't pass it by the second attempt, then yeah, we move them along. We don't keep them with us. So we do follow the Transport Canada specific training for mobility assistance, and as you may know, there's seven modules in total, if memory serves me right, and I believe it's module four or five that deals with passengers with visual disabilities. And I believe there were, obviously they engaged the— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: CNIB. Steve Dawson: At other institutions, other blind folks, visually impaired folks in designing and delivering that training. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Because it's common knowledge that the needs for a vision impaired person are somewhat different from those in a wheelchair. One size does not fit all. Steve Dawson: And that's what we try to train our staff. Don't do cookie cutter assistance for any of our passengers. Not just the visual impaired, but also the wheelchair passengers. Some people— we try to train our people to listen more, with some success. And again, I'm always out on the floor looking around to see what's going on, and I'm— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Steve Dawson: And sometimes I have to correct behaviours [laughs] if I'm being honest, but my team takes it to heart, and they certainly wanna do the best job they can to make sure that the most vulnerable members of our passengers are able to get the assistance that they need. Our training's very in depth. The feedback I get from the 27 airlines I'm assisting is very positive, and from the GTA as well, if I'm being honest. They've said that they really like the job we do with assisting people with disabilities and who need mobility assistance. But yeah, it's a really good point in that if you treat everybody the same, it doesn't work very well. I even train my managers that way when they're dealing with employees. Don't do cookie cutter management. Every employee's different, has different motivators, has different things that are gonna make them wanna perform at the top of their game sort of thing. And if you treat everybody the same, you're gonna find most of the people are not gonna be very happy, and I think that goes as well when you're servicing people with disabilities. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I like the term cookie cutter. Steve Dawson: Cookie cutter. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very— Steve Dawson: That's— [laughs] I use that all the time [laughs] when I'm talking to managers, both on the service side, but also on the management side as well. Don't… make sure you know who the people are working for you. And a lot of people very much need the pat on the head, you know? And make sure you're catching people doing things right. When you see a person doing what we described, Donna, like walking up to a visually impaired passenger, "Hey, how can I help you best?" "Oh, okay. You wanna put your hand on my shoulder? Absolutely. Is this pace okay?" I make sure when I see somebody doing that I say, "Hey, fantastic job. That's exactly the way I would've done it. Excellent," sort of thing. And I train my management team to have a positive management style like that. Obviously we have to correct behaviours and when somebody's doing something wrong, yes, there's gonna be disciplinary actions enacted if necessary, if something's egregious enough. But for the most part we really enact a positive management style with our team, and it's been very successful so far for us in both our divisions, to be honest. And yeah, we're gonna keep doing it that way, avoiding the cookie cutter management style. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. [laughs] No, I have definitely seen great strides, and I do congratulate you and your team on this, you know? Well done. Steve Dawson: Oh, thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well done. Steve Dawson: I've been fortunate to hire some very, very good managers who are carrying the torch for us and carrying my message out onto the floor to make sure my entry-level employees are doing what they're supposed to be doing. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And especially when you have employees whose first language is not English, it's even more difficult for them, right? Steve Dawson: Absolutely. And one of the great challenges is we have a lot of passengers who are unable to communicate in English or French. And that's a massive challenge for us. And, I mean, by the book, if you wanna go by Transport Canada, the airport, my company, their lines, they're not required to provide language assistance to passengers, but we all wanna provide a good product. And fortunately I have a lot of multilingual employees working for me. A lot of my passengers who need accessibility assistance speak Hindi or Punjabi or Gujarati. And I have plenty of people who speak that language as well, but I've got a whole raft of different languages that my team speaks, and we provide language assistance wherever possible. Again, that's not part of our contracted work with the airlines. But it's much easier to help somebody with disabilities through customs if you're able to communicate effectively with them. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Not easy, but— Steve Dawson: [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hey, it's getting better. And that— Steve Dawson: The challenges are many, Donna, for sure. [laughs] I didn't want to, I didn't want you to think my job was too easy. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, it's not. Steve Dawson: [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I would not wanna be in your position. I wouldn't. I wouldn't know what to do myself. But my clock is winding down, and I wanted to ask you this question. Steve Dawson: Certainly. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Pearson's accessible drop-off zones in terminals one and three have tactile walking strips and a phone with large print and braille signage alongside a QR code to request help. And Pearson says that attendants can also meet travellers at parking, the airport hotels, and the UP Express train. For a blind traveller who arrives without a smartphone or who is dropped at a different door, how do they reach your team, and how are they told how long they will be waiting? Steve Dawson: Okay, now that's an excellent question, 'cause what you allude to, the assistance spots, there's three of them in terminal one at the curb, and there's two more in the departures level at the curb, and two more as well at terminal three. But that's an excellent question. If they forgot their smartphone and suddenly they find themselves not close to one of these locations, what's the next step for them? Now, presumably they've been dropped off. If they're dropped off by a cab, for instance, all the cab drivers, as you know, you have to be licensed to bring the cab into Pearson Airport. In order to have a licence with Pearson Airport, you're trained on saying, "Here's the locations you drop people who are visually impaired at. They must be dropped at this location." If it's family who's dropping them, presumably the family's going to make sure that they're assisted. Now in the rare cases where they're on their own and they have nobody with them, I can imagine the anxiety that would cause for somebody. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Yeah. Steve Dawson: You would… they're in a totally foreign location. They don't know where they are. And yeah, they need to get assistance. Any airport employee is trained to direct them to the appropriate place, and I believe any one of our ASP security guards at the curb would assist them to the nearest location where they could pick up the phone and arrange for one of my guys or one of my competitor's guys to meet them at the curb and come and assist them. And the phone number that they call, as you probably know, goes directly to the GTA. GTA directs them to the appropriate wheelchair service provider to set up assistance. Now the best way to avoid that, of course, as I spoke about before is pre-booking your pickup. And if you pre-book it, then… And again, the information's all on the GTA website, but the Pearson website. You pre-book it, and we're required to be there 10 minutes before the pre-booked time, and we're required to stay there, under our SLA, for 15 minutes after the pre-booked time, if in case there's any delay. But as you know, I believe we've assisted you in this way before. You've got our duty— you got a phone number, a direct line to one of us, if in case there's any delay. Let's say you're delayed getting to the airport or anything, so we can change the pickup time. But yeah, you're right. I would suggest that's a bit of a hole in the system. If somebody gets dropped off by their family or gets dropped off by somebody in the wrong location and they're on their own, yeah, they're in a real anxious moment. But in those cases, they can call out for help from the nearest airport employee. There's plenty of security guards at the curb, as an example. Some of my guys will probably be at the curb, and somebody will come and assist them and direct them to the nearest pickup point so we can arrange the pickup. If it's one of my airlines, then my guys of course will ask how they can assist them best and take them from there right to where they're going to. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I remember many, many years ago, and this was, I call it, in the stone age of all of this, right? So I get to the airport. I don't know what to do. And so my friend directed me to the phone, and I phoned. Guess who I got? The police. Steve Dawson: [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And they said, "You're phoning the police." I said, "I want…" And I said which airline I wanted, and they said— Steve Dawson: Oh my goodness. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: "Uh." I almost died. Steve Dawson: It's amazing how far we've come in the last 20, 30 years, right? And yeah, I remember assisting my niece at the airport. Just 30 years ago, she lives in Calgary, so using Calgary Airport and flying to Pearson, and how much it's changed since then. How much more robust a service it is now. And it's not perfect yet, but we're tweaking it where it needs to be tweaked. But boy, in those days it was archaic. It was, you were— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Steve Dawson: In a lot of ways you were left to your own devices. And it's just a very, very anxious experience for any passengers in that experience. Hopefully it's a little less stressful now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think it is, and I think because it is you will have more people travelling because people were very, very hesitant to travel before. Steve Dawson: Absolutely. And it's funny, and there's two sides to that, Donna, if I'm being honest. We assisted a passenger recently and it was an elderly couple, and they had Alzheimer's. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, no. Steve Dawson: Now unfortunately the family didn't declare that to us. They were flying from Africa to London, England to Toronto to Calgary or Edmonton, somewhere in Alberta. And we weren't notified, and the airline hadn't been notified, and so we assisted them to their departure gate at Pearson. And as soon as we were gone they wandered out of the airport and went for a walk along Highway 401. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh no. Oh, no, no, no, no. Steve Dawson: And we had no idea, and it was, unfortunately my team can't restrain people if they decide to leave on their own. But when we leave somebody at a gate, we're trained to do a 30-minute check-back, check back every 30 minutes. "Hey, do you need assistance to the washroom?" Anything like that. But these people, not long after we dropped them, they wandered off. And fortunately they were found by the metro police found them. Brought them back to the airport, and they were rebooked onto the next flight. So but yeah, we… Well, my point is we've become so good at assisting people, there's now an assumption, and certainly in a lot of parts of the world that, oh, well, we'll bring them to the airport, and then the airline or the airline's contractor will babysit them right until it's time to go sort of thing. And we have to be very careful with that. Now if we're notified somebody has a mental disability or need some special attention, absolutely, we'll stay with them from start to finish and make sure that they're never on their own. But some airlines will not even allow passengers— if their family calls us, "I want to book my grandmother. She has Alzheimer's, but we're sending her on her own." And they'll say, "Sir, we won't accept that booking." And there's some airlines who won't even accept that now. So as long as we're pre-alerted, we're very good at handling that. But if we're not pre-alerted, it can end up in a very, very bad situation for the passenger and for their families. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Give me your final words of wisdom. Steve Dawson: [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Tell me anything. What are you hoping for? Anything at all. Give our listeners some final words. Steve Dawson: Some final word, I wanna make the experience for passengers with disability as seamless as it's usually supposed to be for all other passengers. And we're a long way from there now. There's a lot of real estate challenges here at Pearson. There's still a lot of training challenges we've alluded to. We've come so far, but we're nowhere near the end of the road yet. We have a lot of improving still to do, and I'd like to think it's constantly improving. They're constantly finding new ways to make it better. Not just as a company, but I'm talking as a community here, Pearson Airport, the GTA, the 50-odd airlines who fly in and out of Pearson sort of thing. And we're always trying to continuously improve it, under the watchful eye of Transport Canada, of course. [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Big Daddy's always watching. Steve Dawson: [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Steve, it has been a pleasure talking with you today. I mean, I learned a lot and I've seen so much improvement, so I know something good is happening. I wanna congratulate you again on your team, and I look forward to continuing to fly with you guys, get your assistance and everything like that. Steve Dawson: Well, I truly appreciate that compliment, I really do. It's good to hear positive feedback to know we're going in the right direction. And as I alluded to before, we're not at the end of the journey by any stretch, but we're certainly a lot closer to the finish line than we were before. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yes, yes. And in the coming week I will be reaching out to you to invite you to write a blog, editorial, or article. I'm gonna be starting a new thing called Breaking Down Barriers to Accessibility, so everyone who has been a guest on our podcast will receive an invitation, and I hope you find time to write something small, no matter what it is. It could be anything. Steve Dawson: I'd be proud to, but be careful when you ask me not to talk too much because that could be— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] I don't care. Steve Dawson: That could be a dangerous trap there. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Steve Dawson: When someone tells me not to talk too long, I may have a bad habit of going from 10 minutes to 15 minutes pretty quickly. [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, you did very good today. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much again, and I'll be in touch with my next trip very soon. Steve Dawson: Okay, look forward to hearing from you, Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Thanks a lot, Steve. Steve Dawson: Thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Take care now. Steve Dawson: And you as well. Bye-bye now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bye-bye. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to Curb to Cabin Canada with your host, Donna J. Jodhan. Every episode we publish includes a full written transcript so that nothing said here sits outside of anyone's reach. You'll find it, along with the documents and decisions that we referred to today, online at https://donnajodhan.com/3c. If you work for an airline, airport, or agency along this journey and you'd like to speak for your own part of it, Donna would be happy to hear from you. The invitation is genuine, the address is on the website, and the questions are always sent in advance. If this episode was useful to you, please pass it along to someone who needs to hear it, a fellow traveller, a colleague, or the organization that really ought to be listening. Wishing you safe and accessible travel across Canada and beyond. Until next time. [outro music]

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #117: Interview with Joel Snyder, President, Audio Description Associates, LLC https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-10-14-2026/ In this illuminating episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes Joel Snyder, who takes listeners back to his years as a volunteer reader at the Metropolitan Washington Ear and explains how audio description began. Joel credits Dr. Margaret Pfanstiehl, the blind founder of the Washington Ear, and Chet Avery, a blind man at the Department of Education, with the idea that grew into the first professionally described theater production, Major Barbara at Arena Stage in the summer of 1981, and he credits Gregory Frazier, whose San Francisco master's thesis he says was the first published work on the subject. He traces description from live theater to television with WGBH, then to DVDs, movie theaters and streaming services, and points listeners to the American Council of the Blind's Audio Description Project at https://adp.acb.org. Donna and Joel also talk about how his training as an actor shapes his teaching, with observation as the first of his four fundamentals of audio description, and why he says the best compliment a describer can get is "I forgot you were there." Joel looks back on his 20 years at the National Endowment for the Arts and his work describing Sesame Street at the National Captioning Institute, and he shares the stories of a blind mother following Sesame Street with her children and a young blind girl who asked Fred Rogers to say aloud when he fed his fish. Looking ahead, he predicts description built into productions from the start and delivered through smartphone apps, and he mentions his book, The Visual Made Verbal, which he says is now in print in seven languages. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: [upbeat digital music] Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, and MBA invites you to listen to her bi-weekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access, technology, and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch, and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, an accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November of 2010, I won the landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was tremendously humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal, and that is to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench, where policy meets lived experience, and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. I am pleased and I am tremendously privileged to welcome Joel Snyder to our Remarkable World Commentary podcast for today. Welcome, Joel. Joel Snyder: Thank you, Donna. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be with you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right. So let's get right into things then. Joel, long before anyone called this a profession, you were a volunteer reader at the Metropolitan Washington Ear reading the Sunday Washington Post aloud. Joel Snyder: [laughs] That's right, for about 10 years. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, and somewhere in there you started describing the comics the way Mayor La Guardia once did on the radio. I want you to take me back to that studio. What made you start describing the pictures instead of just reading the words? Joel Snyder: [laughs] Well, in the '70s, indeed I was a volunteer for the Metropolitan Washington Ear, a radio reading service. And volunteers took turns reading different newspapers and magazine articles and short stories and that sort of thing for this radio reading service on a frequency that was accessible via a particular receiver that people who are blind primarily used. And it was great fun, a great learning experience for me as a young voice talent and actor and such. Joel Snyder: And it really occurred to all of us as we're reading newspapers, newspapers are chock-full of photographs and graphic advertisements and such, and if we're gonna make the newspaper accessible, we can't just read the text, just like Mayor La Guardia did in the '40s. He was reading the comics to the people of New York City. Couldn't just read the text. You gotta describe the images. Joel Snyder: And all of us as volunteers there were not struggling with it really, but we realized that that's certainly something we needed to do. But there was no kind of best practices or guidelines of standards for doing description. We just did it. People have been describing things since prehistoric times. Joel Snyder: But it was a little bit later, in about 1980, when the woman who founded the Washington Ear, its director, Dr. Margaret Pfanstiehl, a blind woman, she was on a committee at Arena Stage, the professional repertory theater in Washington, DC. A committee to advise them on accessibility, which in 1980, that wasn't done very often. But they had convened the committee partly on the occasion of having installed an assisted listening system. So yeah, also very new. They're ubiquitous now, but this was their installed, to help people who had hearing loss hear what's going on. Joel Snyder: Well, Margaret was on that committee, a blind woman, along with another gentleman from the Department of Education, Chet Avery, a blind man, and both of them thought this system was wonderful, but they also both wondered, "Well, gee, what do you have for us? We're blind. We don't have hearing." Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my goodness. Joel Snyder: So they theorized as they learned about the system, it's just a microphone on a stage and that connects to some sort of transmitter, and the sound is received by people wearing headsets in the audience. You can crank up the volume. Joel Snyder: So they wondered if, well, if it's just a microphone on stage, maybe you could have two channels and the second channel could be used by a person with a second microphone. Why couldn't that happen? Maybe somebody off stage, maybe using the pauses in between bits and pieces of dialogue or critical sound elements, just let us know what's going on. What action in particular. But of course, there might be description of facial expressions, the settings, costumes and such as time allows. Joel Snyder: And at the stage, they thought, "Well, gee, we've never heard of that before." And Margaret and Chet both felt like, "Well, yeah, we haven't heard it before either. We just made it up." But could it work possibly? And so Arena Stage agreed and said, "Well, Margaret, you've got a radio station. Maybe you can get some folks together and figure out how we would do this." Joel Snyder: And Margaret grabbed me, I was already an English teacher and professional actor and voice talent, and a couple of others, and we began to hammer this out. What would we even call it? Well, it's an aural experience. Audio, audio description. That's what we'll do. Joel Snyder: And we worked on it for about a year, and in the summer of 1981, the very first professional theater presentation with audio description debuted. Major Barbara, the play by Shaw, at Arena Stage with audio description. And I should add quickly, though, that the idea of doing this as a service accompanying a dramatic production or a film or video occurred to a fellow in San Francisco, to Gregory Frazier, in the mid-1970s. He did a master's thesis on this topic. Joel Snyder: He had a good friend who was blind, and I think he was a little tired of always having to describe movies to his friend. And he thought, "This should just be something available." He wrote a master's thesis called An All Audio Adaptation of the Autobiography of Miss Jane Pittman, a great film with Cicely Tyson. And so that was his master's thesis back in, I think it was '78, '77. Joel Snyder: And in mid-'80s, he went on to develop a service just like we had in Washington, but this is in San Francisco, a service called AudioVision doing description for live performance. And both of the services are still around and doing description at different kinds of performing arts events, especially dance, theater, opera. And then it went on from there. Joel Snyder: 1985, we collaborated with WGBH in Boston to actually start doing this for television. We did a pilot for them, which was very successful. I actually wrote and voiced three of the very first television programs ever broadcast in this country, certainly, with audio description. So then it began to get publicized and took off from there. It took a little while to start getting it on DVDs, or actually first came VHS videotape. [laughs] Remember those? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Yes. Joel Snyder: Which was not the ideal format because you couldn't turn it on or off. You either had it on that tape, but with DVDs, you could turn it on and off, that sort of thing. And then it started bubbling around on television and our FCC started considering whether that this should be joined with captioning, for instance. Captioning was already required on broadcast television. So that started to bubble, and movie theaters started to realize that they needed to make their presentations accessible. Joel Snyder: But the movie theater itself, they're just showing movies from Hollywood. So Hollywood needed to start thinking about doing captioning and doing audio description so that now just about every feature film that comes out has an audio description track. We've come a long way. And then finally streaming came about more recently. And it took some persuading, but now Netflix, Amazon, Disney, others who stream, who have these streaming services for entertainment, they're doing it in 12, 15 languages around the world. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Whoa. Joel Snyder: Yeah. So in a nutshell, that's kind of the recent history of audio description [laughs] in the United States. Canada has been a real player though as well. In fact, well, I remember there was a group called AudioVision Canada that I think morphed into, graduated into other services in Canada, but they actually experimented with taking public domain films, just dubbing out from the film just the audio track and then mixing it with audio description. And they started issuing audio cassettes that were audio films, essentially, which I still have a few of them. Joel Snyder: It didn't go very far. It wasn't marketed perhaps as well as it could be, but I'm still trying to convince Hollywood to— They own the description. They own the films. Why not issue audio versions of the film with audio description? And you have an audio film that I think would sell to sighted people who wanna re-experience a film in their car or at the theater. So that's on the horizon, hopefully. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Whoa. What a whirlwind journey for you, huh? Joel Snyder: And there you go. It's true. It's true. I've been working with it now almost 46 years. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, in the summer of 1981 at Arena Stage in Washington is the moment that field usually points to Margaret, okay? Joel Snyder: Right, Margaret Pfanstiehl. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Pfanstiehl. And Chet Avery. Joel Snyder: Yes. That's right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? An assistant listening system meant for hard of hearing patrons. And a production of Major Barbara. You were in the room. Tell our listeners what actually happened. And what it felt like to be doing something nobody had a name for as yet. Tell us. Joel Snyder: That's right. Well, I guess we didn't really know that we were doing something that was groundbreaking or that would expand or— We just wanted to try it with theater, and we did. And it worked out pretty well. Radio reading services, pretty much all of them follow a volunteer model. Like I said, I was a volunteer reader. Joel Snyder: And the description for performing arts basically assumed that model, so that volunteers would develop the description based on a couple of viewings, two or three viewings of a play. And then at certain performances, maybe one or two performances out of a six-week run, we would provide the audio description. And it was, again, volunteer based. You didn't wanna have to charge the theaters much, if anything at all. Joel Snyder: And you're using volunteers, so you can't really say, "Well, we need you to be at every performance and be available and all of that." And that's changing a little bit because I think people who are blind have a right to access any and every performance of a performing arts piece. They should be able to go up to the box office and say, "I'd like a ticket for tonight. Oh, I need the audio description, please." And be able to access it. So there are different ways to try to accomplish that and we're working on that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Interesting. Now, you are very often introduced as the father of audio description. But yet in your own tellings, you consistently hand the credit to Dr. Margaret Pfanstiehl? Joel Snyder: Oh, Pfanstiehl. Absolutely. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: A blind woman. Joel Snyder: That's right. Listen, description is not just for blind people. It's by blind people. It was developed by Margaret. In fact, nowadays with media, some of the best quality control consultants are people who are blind, who know audio description. They contribute to the writing of the description. Some of the best voice talents are people who are totally blind. And some of the best audio editors are people who are totally blind. So— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Really? Joel Snyder: It's absolutely critical that it be understood as an activity that folks who are blind are very much a part of. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, why does it matter so much to you that the record shows a blind woman at the origin of this field? Joel Snyder: Well, that is the fact of the matter. [laughs] I wasn't on the committee at Arena Stage. Chet Avery is sometimes overlooked a little bit. It wasn't called the Department of Education in those days. I think it was Health and Human Services, something like that. But he was actually a blind man overseeing funding for captioning. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh my Lord. Joel Snyder: He had the idea back in the '60s really, what if we had, he called it audio captions for film or television that would clue people into what's going on. People who are blind primarily. Other populations benefit as well. And the idea just never took hold. In fact, there were some folks in the blind community who would say, "Well, we don't really need that. That would be a crutch. We will not have to depend on that. We can get along just listening to the audio. And what's more important is having initiatives that will build employment for blind people," which my goodness, is certainly true. Joel Snyder: But other things other than the arts or television, we're getting on fine with it. Most blind people watch, quote unquote, television by listening to what's going on, and so much is communicated by sound. We don't need it. And— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: New notification from Audible. Joel Snyder: Thank goodness, and there are still some organizations and folks certainly in this country who still feel a little bit like, "Eh, it's not a priority. It's a nice thing to have." But certainly the American Council of the Blind here has been a real advocate and supporter for audio description. Joel Snyder: About 17 years ago, I worked with them to found the Audio Description Project, which is an initiative ACB. And we have a website that lists everything that we know of that's described, museums, theaters, every film, every television show. And we have, oh golly, we have contests for blind kids, where they write reviews of the described videos. We have conferences and awards and training institutes. So it's grown a great deal. Joel Snyder: But if I may, the website is simply ADP, Audio Description Project, https://adp.acb.org. Yeah, https://adp.acb.org. And really, everything you wanted to know about audio description is there. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Oh my God. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, you also go out of your way to credit Gregory Frazier, who was writing about all audio adaptation, San Francisco stage, back in the mid-1970s, and went on to build AudioVision. Most people have never heard his name. Joel Snyder: Yeah, I think he wrote— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But why do you keep saying it? And what did his lineage on the West Coast contribute that the Washington story alone doesn't capture? Joel Snyder: Well, he was the first. He did, as I say, a master's thesis. He was the first person to really sit down on paper and publish ideas about the act and the art of audio description. Joel Snyder: And I have my own PhD that is focused on audio description, where it's— In Europe, it's studied, and master's degrees and PhDs are obtainable because it's a kind of audiovisual translation. And really in this country, in the world, as far as I know, and I wrote a book about this, The Visual Made Verbal, as far as I know, Gregory was the first to actually publish something that referenced what we call now as audio description. Joel Snyder: Gregory wasn't all that involved with its development on television and film, because he— Well, he was in San Francisco, and of course so much film comes out of Los Angeles. And it was really the brainchild of WGBH in Boston, where they heard about what we were doing, and they realized that with broadcast television, even back in analog days, there was a secondary audio program feature with stereo televisions, SAP. Joel Snyder: And that would be the ideal way to transmit this second audio track. It was there for Spanish translation. And even today, most usually on weekends with sports events, you'll hear Spanish translation, which means you will not hear description. [laughs] Joel Snyder: And you would think in this day and age, with everything digital, technically there's capacity to have a dozen different audio tracks, but it just hasn't happened yet. So that's another goal for us because there should be— There's room to have audio description in English, audio description in Spanish, translation in Spanish, and other languages as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Ring. Woo. Joel Snyder: Yeah. Lots of stuff going on. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, what I didn't know until I was prepping for this interview is that you have been an actor since you were about seven years old. Joel Snyder: Oh, goodness. Yeah. [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you still perform. Joel Snyder: Yeah. Yeah, no, I— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I want to ask you about the craft rather than the policy for a moment. Joel Snyder: Ah, thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What does training as a performer give a describer that no amount of writing skills can substitute? Four. Tell me. Joel Snyder: Yeah, that is great. Thank you, Donna, for mentioning that. I've been a equity member, Actors' Equity Association for over 50 years. I train describers all around the world, some 60 countries now, and most of the United States. Canada, of course. I'm probably the only person offering training who hearkens back to training for actors. There's a classic text called The First Six Lessons of Acting by Richard Boleslavsky. And two of those lessons are concentration and observation. Joel Snyder: And I developed what I teach and in my book, the four fundamentals of audio description, and observation is the first one. An audio describer has to observe, has to be an active seer, one who sees. And so does an actor, because you're reproducing on stage what you've observed around the world. And you only do that to the extent that you're able to really concentrate on what is out there. So I trace this right back to acting training. Joel Snyder: And then of course, audio description, 99% of it is voiced aloud. So it's helpful to be able to voice in a way that makes meaning, makes it clear, makes it understandable and clear. So those skills come into play as well. Now some people, [laughs] some people, Donna, will say, "Oh, I have a friend who's an actor. He's got a beautiful voice. He'd be a great audio describer." Joel Snyder: And maybe he would, but audio describing is about the crafting of the language. And then it has to be voiced, and that's a voice talent or a narrator, if you will. Or some people say they're performing the audio description. I shy away from that word, really, because the best compliment an audio description— after a performance at a live theater, best compliment that the describer can get is, "I forgot you were there." You know? Joel Snyder: For live theater, it's almost always the same person who crafts the description is voicing it. In movies, it's different. In movies, it's described somewhere and then it's voiced somewhere else, that sort of thing. But actors wanna be in the spotlight. Goodness, I know that. Joel Snyder: And when you voice audio description, again, I think the point is to disappear. The consumer gets everything, but forgets that you were there because nobody goes to a play or a film to hear the audio describer. They experience the film or the play. And our job is to, with the writing and with the voicing, to be inconspicuous, to be in consonance with what's going on. But don't— You're not in the play, you're not in the movie, you are of the play, of the movie. And that's the distinction that I think is important. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I wrote three seasons of The Detective DJ and the Crime Crushers. Joel Snyder: Oh my goodness. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I commentated it. I audioed it. I did everything for it. Joel Snyder: Fantastic. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm [laughs] fairly sure it could've been made better if I had known you at that time, [laughs] you know? Joel Snyder: [laughs] We'd be a great team, that's right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah. So you spent 20 years at the National Endowment for the Arts from 1982 to 2002, and you served as acting director of its Inter-Arts Program. Joel Snyder: Inter-Arts Program, that's right. With— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: More than once. Joel Snyder: What they called presenting program, et cetera. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, what did two decades inside a federal arts agency teach you about how change actually happens in large institutions, and did it make you more patient or less patient? Be honest. [laughs] Joel Snyder: Well, the period that I was there, '82 to '02, was oftentimes referred, at least certainly the '90s, referred to as the culture wars. And we had congressmen really trying to defund the NEA because they felt we were funding things that were not part of the mainstream and that that should be our mission. And I, of course, and others felt like, well, no, that's what the commercial sector does. Funding should be about the art form and what's advancing the art form, not necessarily what's commercial. So we went through that certainly, and still going through that really. Joel Snyder: And unfortunately, the Arts Endowment is a shell of its former self these days. But it was quite a ride for about 20 years, and that's how I earned the bulk of my living. I was also doing acting, but I didn't make a living in audio description until 2002, when I left the Endowment, and have ever since, which is just great. Joel Snyder: But the Endowment— Everybody in a country, I think, has the right to access culture. And I think every theater, every orchestra, every dance company, et cetera, has the right to be as inclusive as possible. And that doesn't necessarily make money. For those entities. So funding by government sources, by corporations and foundations, by individuals is so important. Joel Snyder: And indeed the services themselves that help build inclusivity like audio description, like captioning, like sign language interpretation, those services I think are appropriate for public funding, and funding from the other sources as well certainly. But it's a bit of a slog, especially these days, certainly in the United States where there's been a bit of an emphasis on cutting back services and government funds. I think Canada's in a better way these days, certainly. Joel Snyder: And you have a Ministry of Culture, whereas we have— the comparable agency is the National Endowment for the Arts. But most countries in Europe have a Ministry of Culture that functions in the same way, providing some funding. The difference in America, and this is an important one, is that our tax structure allows for contributions from individuals and corporations. When an individual contributes to an arts organization that is officially a non-profit organization or in other countries referred to as an NGO, when anybody contributes, they're able to take credit for that off their taxes. Joel Snyder: And that's a big incentive and certainly results in funding far greater than the modest budget of the NEA. And there are also, I believe all 50 states have a state arts agency. And indeed, I'm in the State of Maryland and served on the Maryland State Arts Council for two years. And they also play an important role with state government money primarily. They get money from the National Endowment for the Arts as well. And there are local arts agencies that also are part of that distribution mechanism. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: This is all so new to me and very interesting, you know. But when you left the NEA and went straight into building described media program at the Na— Joel Snyder: Right, at National Captioning Institute. That's right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah. And description started reaching national television, including Sesame Street. Joel Snyder: That's it. [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What was it like moving from describing a live stage to describing broadcast media? And what did you have to unlearn, as they would say? Joel Snyder: Well, I always thought that description will not really take off until it's in media, until it's on television and with movies and such. And that has proved to be true. Yeah, we were the first folks to provide description for Sesame Street. And I must say back in those days in the 2000s, and still today actually, the federal government does provide some funding for the description on television for educational media. Joel Snyder: And we used that funding to offer audio description, for instance, to the Children's Television Workshop that produced Sesame Street. And that was great fun to do, and it still is being described and captioned as well. And it's important, as I mentioned, little kids who are blind or have low vision benefit a great deal from that. Joel Snyder: In fact, a quick story, Donna. When I was doing Sesame Street, we got a letter from a 45-year-old blind woman who wanted to compliment us on Sesame Street. And I thought, "Well, that's— It's nice, but that program's for three to five-year-olds." Well, it turns out that she was congenitally blind. And she loved Sesame Street when she was a child just listening to the funny voices and the music and the sounds and such. Joel Snyder: Well, now she was moved to write to us because she had two sighted children. And she could for the first time follow along with her kids the antics of Bert and Ernie and Elmo and all the other denizens of Sesame Street. So that was really a heartwarming letter we received from a blind woman, as I say. Joel Snyder: And there's the other story too, that you may have heard, another program that was really right up there almost as popular as Sesame Street, but Mister Rogers' Neighborhood. Have you heard of that one? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Yes, I have. Joel Snyder: Fred Rogers, which, just a wonderful program, very different than Sesame Street, but much beloved. And there's a reason why Fred Rogers would always out loud say when he was feeding his fish on his little living room set there. He got a letter from a five-year-old blind girl, Cathy, who said, "Would you do that, please? Because I can't see if you're feeding your fish, and I really wanna know that the fish are being taken care of." Joel Snyder: And the papa added a note, said, "Yes, Cathy is blind, and she really does cry if you don't say you are feeding the fish." So Fred Rogers added in a little bit of description, kind of built it into the show, which is wonderful, in honor of this child who wrote to him. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. I wonder if you ever thought of doing, or maybe you have, doing any audio description for one of my favorite shows growing up, The Flintstones. Did you? Joel Snyder: That's great. No, I haven't. I've done various cartoon shows. Animated programs. Not The Flintstones, though. Joel Snyder: Another one that I would love to hear described, I was always a big fan of the Rocky and Bullwinkle show. And [laughs] in fact, I even went to them at one point, the people that own the show now, and said, "I'll do it for free. You know? Let's figure out a way to get description." And that never happened. And The Flintstones, it may have description. I don't know. I've never done it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I've never heard of it either, but that was my favorite cartoon growing up. Joel Snyder: Sure. Sure. Absolutely. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What would it sound like for you to describe the antics of Fred and Barney and Wilma and Betty? Joel Snyder: Well, so much is happening visually there. Right from their clothes. Kind of cave people clothes. Kind of animal hide basically, but with color and designs and such. And then there's the car that they used to use. Which was a human-powered car. They were puttering along by just using their legs basically, cranking the car. Funny things like that. And then there was their pet Dino— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Dino and Bamm-Bamm and— Joel Snyder: Bamm-Bamm the child. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Fred's apples. Joel Snyder: That's right. Lots of great things that could be described there, and made more vivid, more meaningful for kids. Joel Snyder: The soundtracks are great, and blind people grow up listening to soundtracks of shows. And oftentimes description is compared to radio theater, and I understand that comparison, although radio theater assumes everybody is blind and we have to fill in the visual with sound effects. So they don't narrate those actions. You hear footsteps and so you know somebody's walking, for instance. Joel Snyder: So I sort of liken audio description perhaps to really high quality sports play-by-play on radio. Some radio commentators are just brilliant. They're just born describers. And they have to be. Nobody's seeing anything. They're broadcasting on the radio. So yeah, I think that's probably an even more apt comparison. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: As a ice hockey enthusiast, I always marveled at how these guys on the radio— And I could picture myself actually being rink-side, you know? Oh, my lord. Joel Snyder: Well, a not so widely known story is about former President Ronald Reagan. He began as a sports announcer in Illinois. And there is the story about his broadcasting play-by-play for a baseball game going on in New York City, and he was in Illinois. Joel Snyder: So he was getting on a ticker tape information about what was going on. Ball one, strike one. Foul ball. And he would take that data without seeing the game. He would describe a game. He would just make it up and very imaginatively create the game with words. Even though he wasn't seeing the game [laughs] he just had the raw data essentially. So no matter what you may think of Mr. Reagan's politics, he was an imaginative broadcaster early in his career. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree with you. I mean, I did follow some of his politics, but I think this is another new disclosure that I never knew about Mr. Reagan. Wow. Joel Snyder: Well, I mention that in my book. If I may do a little plug, The Visual Made Verbal: A Comprehensive Training Manual and Guide to the History and Applications of Audio Description. And I'm quite proud that it's available in braille. It's available in two different audiobook versions. And it's now in print in seven languages with eighth one on the way. So it's a little dated. It's time for a second edition, I think. It's about 13 years old. But that's a project for me. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, the clock is telling me it's almost time to go. But I wanted to ask you, give me some predictions as to what the future would be for audio description. What can I look forward to, as an adult especially? But I have a kid's heart, too, you know? Yeah. Tell us. Tell our listeners. Joel Snyder: Well, I guess a couple of things. I look forward to having audio description be incorporated within productions from the very beginning. Having, in different ways. Perhaps a playwright can write a script so that it's descriptive as you go along. And you don't have to add description to it. Or maybe a describer is embedded within the cast and provides description on stage or develops a script and is available to voice it at every performance, something like that. Joel Snyder: I would steer your listeners to Stevie Wonder's music video, So What the Fuss. When he wrote that song and then of course as folks did, I guess still today, make a music video of the song. Well, he decided that's gonna be described, you know? And I cannot experience that song without listening to his friend Busta Rhymes, a rapper, voice the description that Stevie Wonder and WGBH wrote for the thing. You can find it easily on the internet. So What the Fuss by Stevie Wonder. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: My Lord. [laughs] Joel Snyder: Oh, it's a great piece. And then the other thing in particular is about the transmission of audio description. In live theater and in movie theaters, and even at home, I think the smartphone is gonna become central to the transmission of audio description. Already, for film, and if that film is on television, there are about a half dozen apps available around the world that you can download to your phone, and then you download to that app the audio description track for a film. Joel Snyder: So if you're in the movie theater or you're at home and the movie comes on, you click that app on, start play, and the app listens to the original soundtrack coming from your television or in the movie theater and will automatically feed to you through your own earbuds the audio description. So you could be doing it at home and your family doesn't need to hear the audio description, but you're getting it, you know? And you can use your own smartphone, your own earbuds in the movie theater. You don't have to be worrying about the movie theater maintaining equipment, that kind of thing. That will become more ubiquitous I think. Joel Snyder: And in live theater it's very rare, live events, but that's coming along as well. I've been working with a software company in Salzburg, Austria, called LiveVoice, and that needs to happen in live settings more often. So I see that on the horizon as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Joel, it has been a pleasure having you. Joel Snyder: Oh, thank you, Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I mean it. I've learned so much in the last few minutes. I'd like to offer you also the opportunity to write a brief article or a blog or an editor, whatever you want to call it. It's all about my trying to promote how different people are breaking down barriers. Joel Snyder: Okay, great. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And what I will do, I will not edit your article or your blog or whatever, but I will simply post it to our website and we circulate it. Joel Snyder: Wonderful. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I will be sending you an invitation in the next week or so. Interested? Joel Snyder: Oh, I would be happy to. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, we thought. Okay. Joel Snyder: Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, and when is your podcast made available and how can folks— So I wanna get the word out about the podcast. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, yeah. This is prerecorded and my associate Aaron Di Blasi, he takes care of all the editing and all the technical stuff. And I think within a few days you will receive notification that it's out there, and it is circulated to thousands and thousands of global listeners. Joel Snyder: Oh, perfect. Perfect. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So not to worry. [laughs] Joel Snyder: Well, I will try and spread the word from this end as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I appreciate it and I enjoyed this podcast 'cause I learned something new. Joel Snyder: Oh, thank you, Donna. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure and an honor to be with you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're very welcome. Thank you, Joel. And you take care. And look, wait for my invitation. Joel Snyder: Oh, I'm looking forward to it. You bet. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, Joel. Take care. Joel Snyder: Thanks, Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bye-bye now. [upbeat music] Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time. [upbeat music]

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #116: Interview with Jerry Nicholson, Co-Founder, Accessible Data https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-10-13-2026/ In this inspiring episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes Jerry Nicholson, co-founder of Accessible Data, from the UK. Jerry traces his path from studying geography at the University of Edinburgh and qualifying as a chartered accountant to moving to Bangladesh with his wife, Fiona, after the two of them read Muhammad Yunus's Banker to the Poor. There they set up Tindercapital to bring early stage venture capital to businesses that could scale, invested in the eco-friendly manufacturer Oasis Coffins, and ran Open Accelerator for rural entrepreneurs. Jerry speaks openly about how hard that first investment was, including a breakdown just before COVID that he says he has fully recovered from. Jerry then explains how the platform he and his business partner, Christophe Geiser, built under the name Preignition became an accessible survey tool after the International Disability Alliance found that many of its members could not fill in its global survey and put out an open call. Jerry describes the barriers people face with online forms, from keyboard navigation to sign language and Easy Read needs, and why forms that shut disabled people out leave them unheard and leave organizations with biased data. Donna presses the point that organizations too often collect lived experience for free, Jerry says a paid panel of disabled respondents could be a future product, and Donna closes by inviting him to write an article for https://barrierfreecanada.org. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, and MBA invites you to listen to her bi-weekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch, and amongst other things, stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, an accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster, who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Everything I do circles one goal, and that is to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench, where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. I am pleased and privileged to welcome Jerry Nicholson all the way across the pond in the UK. Hello, Jerry, and welcome to my podcast. Jerry Nicholson: Hi, Donna, and it's a pleasure to be speaking with you today. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. So what's the weather like in the UK at the present time? Jerry Nicholson: Well, the weather in the UK constantly changes, so— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Jerry Nicholson: It was rainy this morning, but it's now beautiful outside. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Good. Jerry Nicholson: Big blue skies with a few fluffy white clouds. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, nice. Nice. So Jerry, welcome to the Remarkable World Commentary. I always like to begin at the very beginning. So tell us about your early path from studying geography at the University of Edinburgh to qualifying as a chartered accountant with the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland. Back then, what did you imagine that your life's work would be? Jerry Nicholson: Oh, that's a good question, Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Jerry Nicholson: [laughs] Yeah, I think I left university with just, I suppose, a desire to do something meaningful with my work. So more than just make money and live comfortably. But to actually do something that had purpose at the center of it. But I've also always been quite interested in business and making things commercial. So I suppose that's what drove me to study accountancy. Not as an end in itself, but just feeling that that would be a useful thing to learn a bit about finance and how businesses worked, to see what would then open up at the end of that. So in many, many respects, my time training as an accountant was a bit like a continuation of my education. So I would say that I really started pursuing my work journey when I was 30. So after qualifying as a chartered accountant and spending times with PwC and Ernst & Young— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [instrumental music] Now, at around 2010, you and your wife, Fiona, moved from the United Kingdom to Dhaka, Bangladesh. A move in, I understand, was sparked by... Sorry, it was sparked by reading Muhammad Yunus on microfinance. What drew you there, and what did those users teach you about who gets included and who gets left out when important decisions are made? Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: A loaded question, so I— Jerry Nicholson: Yeah, no, it's a good question. Yeah, so I suppose I first went to Bangladesh with Fiona shortly after we got married, and I had qualified as a chartered accountant. And a bit like I was saying previously, Donna, I'd always gone into accountancy as a means to an end. So we're really just asking those questions, "Well, what are we gonna do with our lives?" And particularly, "How's our work gonna fit into that?" So in 2000 and... I think it was probably 2004, 2005, Fi and I, we spent a year traveling, and we spent a bit of time in a country called Tajikistan in Central Asia. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay. Jerry Nicholson: And then we did a big trip starting in Cambodia and working— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Jerry Nicholson: Our way over land back to the UK. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Ooh. Jerry Nicholson: And we were meeting up with lots of different people who were doing interesting things and using business and finance to create opportunities. And as part of that trip, we passed through Bangladesh. We'd both read Muhammad Yunus's book, Banker to the Poor, and had read about microfinance and this idea of financial institutions lending people with very limited means really quite small amounts of money, so maybe $50 or $100, which would enable them to— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Jerry Nicholson: Maybe buy a sewing machine or buy a cow, some sort of small income-generating asset, and then that would then provide some additional revenue for the family. And this was an idea that seemed quite interesting to us. So we actually spent about three weeks in Bangladesh and had the pleasure of meeting Professor Muhammad Yunus, who is incredible, a incredibly humble man and a great leader. And that was a wonderful time. But as part of that trip, one of the things we thought was, well, microfinance has a role. It also has its critics, which I agree with some of the criticism of the microfinance model, but I think it definitely has a part to play. But Fi and I then started thinking, well, really microfinance is very widely provided, particularly in a country like Bangladesh, so it doesn't need more microfinance. But what Bangladesh and I think many countries like it do need are venture capital or risk capital— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Jerry Nicholson: To help businesses which have the potential to scale. So not sort of microfinance to finance a cottage industry, but, yeah, venture capital to really grow enterprises. So that's really what Fi and I then started thinking about. And ultimately, we went back to Bangladesh about four years later, four or five years later in 2010, and we set up an organization called Tindercapital to try and get— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Jerry Nicholson: That type of venture capital going to those early stage scalable businesses. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The name Tindercapital, I'm just curious, how did the name come about? What went into giving this name to your venture? Jerry Nicholson: Yeah, that's a good question. Well, we actually named it... I mean, there's now the very famous dating app Tinder, but we actually named Tindercapital before Tinder came about, or certainly we didn't know about it. So the idea is this, tinder being the small bits of wood or material that you would— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Jerry Nicholson: Start a fire with, which would then lead to a much bigger fire. So it's the idea of providing that sort of quite strategic early stage capital to businesses which just needed it at that stage with the goal or the aim that as the business grew, that it could take on additional capital and later stage capital and really grow quite significant enterprises from it. So that was the idea behind the name. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I like the name Tindercapital. Jerry Nicholson: Oh, thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I do. Jerry Nicholson: [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So [laughs] through Tindercapital and the Open Accelerator, you backed and supported rural entrepreneurs working far outside Dhaka, people who were often a long way from the usual sources of investment. Now, looking back, do you see a connection between investing in overlooked entrepreneurs then and making sure that disabled people are counted in the day-to-day operations? Jerry Nicholson: Yeah, I do. I mean, I think I didn't consciously make that connection, Donna, but now that you ask me to reflect upon it, I think, yeah, there definitely is a strong connection there. I suppose I have a strong conviction that we're all valuable, have a contribution to make, and really should just be given equal opportunities. So whether that's an entrepreneur from a not wealthy background in a remote area of Bangladesh looking for opportunities to grow their business, or someone trying to fill in a form so they can participate in a consultation or— there are definitely some similarities there of looking to remove barriers and just sort of level the playing field. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Because I know today, from my own lived experience, it's still very difficult for persons with disabilities to make their contribution and to be successful entrepreneurs. We're still fighting a lot of that. So it's really refreshing to hear you talk about it in this manner. Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. And thanks for asking me to reflect on that, Donna. It's— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Oh, my pleasure. Now, Tindercapital's very first investment was Oasis Coffins, an eco-friendly manufacturer that you helped to turn around by rewriting its business plan and rebuilding its balance sheets so that it could attract institutional backing. What did that experience teach you about patience and persistence, and how have those lessons shaped your way you build accessible data? Jerry Nicholson: Ooh, yeah, no, that's a good question. Yeah, I mean, it was a really good experience investing in Oasis Coffins, but if I'm honest, it was also one of the hardest experiences. Yeah, and I think the reason for that is, well, one of the things it did, Donna, was really show me how difficult it is to invest successfully in an early stage business, just the number of variables and things that need to be right in order for the investment to work. So it felt— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Jerry Nicholson: I was involved with that business for probably about five years. And as you say, the entrepreneur was someone who we met when we first came to Bangladesh. And, yeah, the entrepreneur is a good friend of mine. He's also an engineer, so he's fantastic at setting up a factory and everything that goes on inside of the factory, he's all over. But he wasn't particularly keen or gifted at sales. So it was a constant, yeah, I suppose struggle really to encourage the main founder of that business to look outside of the existing customers that the business had to really scale the business. So it did feel like in many respects it was making progress in one area, but then slipping back in another area. And actually the major customer that the business had was a UK company, a distributor. It bought a lot of coffins from the manufacturing business in Bangladesh, which was great to help the business get on its feet, but it was also an extremely demanding customer, so was always trying to cut the price or— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Yeah. Jerry Nicholson: Seek a different product or whatever. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Jerry Nicholson: So— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I know all about that. Jerry Nicholson: The poor entrepreneur spent— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. [laughs] Jerry Nicholson: 90% of their time— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Jerry Nicholson: Trying to look after this one customer, and that meant that they had limited bandwidth to go after other customers. So what ended up happening at the end of that business, Donna, was they sold the manufacturing business to its UK customer. So in some respects it wasn't a huge success in terms of scaling that business, but on the other side, the business is now very stable, and it employs about 100, 120 people in Bangladesh. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Jerry Nicholson: So yeah, it was an interesting case study in the challenges of [laughs] starting and growing a business. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you're still alive to tell the story. I mean, I think a lot of people might have given up and said, "Oh, good God, I can't do this," right? Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, Donna. I don't know how honest you want me to be in this podcast, but I actually had a bit of a breakdown— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Jerry Nicholson: As part of my leadership of that business. When was that? That was in just before COVID, which I've now— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Jerry Nicholson: Fully, I've now recovered from. And it— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Jerry Nicholson: Actually was a... In some respects, those tough times force— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Jerry Nicholson: You to look inside yourself and look at some issues that you might have just glossed over. So I actually view it as quite a positive and a productive time in my life, but it was also very hard as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, all right. So many of our listeners would wonder how a chartered accountant and impact investor came to build accessible survey software. Your company began life under another name, Preignition, before becoming Accessible Data 2024. What was the moment or the conversation that turned your attention to the way that disabled people are shut out of surveys and forms? I want... I'm very curious to want to hear this answer from you. Jerry Nicholson: [laughs] Well, first of all, Donna, congratulations. You've done your research. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Thank you. Jerry Nicholson: So [laughs] yeah, so I mean, it really carries on from where we left off with Oasis Coffins. So we arrived in Bangladesh in 2010. We started working with Oasis Coffins and investing in Oasis Coffins quite soon after arriving. But my wife and I, we're not hugely wealthy, so our company, Tindercapital, had very limited capital. So we started thinking about how can we work with more businesses, and how can we network with Bangladeshi banks and external investors who do have access to capital and can invest that in businesses in Bangladesh? So we then ran something called an accelerator program. So an accelerator program is, I suppose, a business support program designed for existing businesses that have got the potential to grow, and it really just provides some support for those businesses, helping them articulate their business plan, connecting them into mentors with particular skills, and also making introductions to investors. So we ran an accelerator program. We called it Open Accelerator. Normally accelerator programs are focused on early stage tech businesses, tech startups typically, and there were a few accelerators for tech startups happening in Dhaka. But we really wanted to work with rural entrepreneurs who didn't have the opportunity to participate in accelerators. So we had a fantastic year running Open Accelerator. We worked with... Jerry Nicholson: Well, we had about 140 businesses that applied, and we worked with, I think it was a cohort of 30, 30 businesses. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Jerry Nicholson: And, yeah, it was a really good program. It was more a sort of a pilot program. And ultimately we were hoping to get it sponsored. So we had lots of conversations with Bangladeshi banks and telecom companies to see if we could encourage them to take over or to sponsor the Open Accelerator so it became sustainable and had a life going forward. But ultimately, we weren't successful at doing that. However, the journey into accessibility and accessible data collection was just as we were... I've been working with my business partner, Christophe, since 2015, when we started building. 'Cause when we were running this accelerator program, Donna, our entrepreneurs were all over Bangladesh. Our— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Jerry Nicholson: Investors, some of them were based in Bangladesh, others were based in Holland or the UK or the US. So we had this very dispersed network, and our data was all over the place, and we spent a lot of time— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Jerry Nicholson: Just trying to get the data together and present it to a particular investor or... So lots of data, but real difficulties managing that. So we started thinking there must be a better way of doing this. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Jerry Nicholson: I then met Christophe—Christophe's actually a friend of my brother's—and found out that he was an expert at building information management systems. So we then initially started building a platform to support the accelerator that I was running to manage its program, well, but also to be able to use all that data that we had collected from the businesses to make that available to the investors, and also the information on the investors, make that available to the entrepreneurs. So just to make those connections. So we did that under the name of Preignition, and that's really what got Christophe and I working together. And we started building that platform for a couple of years. But then we realized that it was extremely difficult to commercialize that product. So we'd got some grant funding from USAID and UK Aid to start building that platform. But in order to really get it to work and commercialize itself, it needed... Well, yeah, it just basically just needed more development resource than we had. So since 2020, Christophe and I were slightly sort of running out of energy and running out of money— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Jerry Nicholson: When Christophe's wife worked... Have you come across IDA, Donna, or the International Disability Alliance? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I've heard about it, yeah. Jerry Nicholson: So IDA's this amazing network of organizations of disabled people. So they have, I think it's about 12 core members. But then those members also have members. So they represent... There's about 4,000 organizations of disabled people who come together under the International Disability Alliance umbrella. So IDA essentially represents the global disability community to organizations like the United Nations. So they've been really influential in things like the Convention on the Rights of Disabled People. IDA played a key role in advocating for CRPD. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, right. Yeah. Jerry Nicholson: And Christophe's wife, Priscille, worked for IDA back then. This is back in 2020. And IDA run a global survey to find out how their members are involved in decision-making in the country where they're based. And they were using a well-known survey tool in order to do that, and really struggling 'cause many of their members just couldn't fill in the survey. So the members were frustrated 'cause they couldn't have their opinions heard. And IDA had this big problem, and they just couldn't get the views of their members, which was what they wanted to base their advocacy upon. So Christophe kept hearing about these struggles and realized that through Preignition, we already had many of the components that we needed in order to host a survey. So our platform already had a form builder. It already had a process management, so a way of managing the data and managing data through different stages. So IDA put out an open call for proposals for an accessible survey tool. Because of the relationship between Christophe and Priscille, there was obviously needs to be... There was a potential conflict of interest there, so it was a very sort of transparent and clear bidding process. And eventually, Preignition was awarded that contract. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Jerry Nicholson: So essentially under the terms of that agreement, we agreed to work together with IDA and IDA's members to essentially develop the platform that we had already been working on for a couple of years, but to really develop that into an accessible data collection tool. And we agreed to do that for quite a low cost, but on the understanding that they would have a platform that would be developed and deployed under their own domain and branding. So they have a tool called https://idata.tools. But we would retain the intellectual property and would release it under our own branding and make that available for other customers outside of IDA. So in that way, we would be able to commercialize the software, the platform, and continually be able to work on it and improve it. So that relationship with IDA and IDA's members is absolutely foundational to our origins, how we started building Accessible Surveys. And IDA is still, not only they're a customer, but they're a really important stakeholder for us. So yeah, that's— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's wonderful. That's— Jerry Nicholson: That's how we got into building... We're focusing on accessible data collection. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It sounds like a very, very interesting, challenging journey for you, and I guess your background as a chartered accountant really helped, right? Jerry Nicholson: Yes. Yeah, I think it did. I think it did. I mean, I think I've been very fortunate in that we've always been able to sort of pay the mortgage and put food on the table. So if you can do that then, and you can also do work which you find meaningful, then that's the ingredients for a happy life, I think. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think it takes a very special type of person to be able to do that because a lot of people would probably be scared to take those chances, right? I mean, a lot of people are so insecure about their future, how to move forward, what to do and things like that. But I think for you, you didn't seem to be afraid to take the bull by the horns and go, right? Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. And I think maybe two things on that. I mean, first of all, it's very much a shared, a joint thing with my wife, Fiona. So I couldn't... She has the same outlook, I suppose, and an appetite for adventure as I have. So that's really helpful. And the other thing is, I think maybe the fact that I do have that accountancy qualification. I sort of feel that if it all goes horribly wrong, I probably could get a job as an accountant, which is not what I want to do, but it's sort of like, I suppose maybe it feels like having a bit of a card in the pocket if I ever need to use it. But, yeah. So— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Jerry Nicholson: Whether that sort of quite, I dunno, conventional start to my career has been helpful to allow me to take some more risks as I've developed it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think for one thing, having a backup plan, and two, having a wife who is very like-minded certainly helps in the way you progress through your lifelong journey, right? Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Jerry Nicholson: I think so. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Jerry Nicholson: And Donna, one important thing which I didn't mention in terms of our journey into accessibility, it's a real partnership between myself and my business partner is a guy called Christophe Geiser. Christophe is a lovely, lovely, talented guy. He's a Swiss national, but he lives in Lyon, in France, and he had a sister who had a disability. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Ah, okay. Jerry Nicholson: And so Christophe has been aware of the barriers that his sister faced all her life. And yeah, so for him, the working in accessibility also had that sort of personal connection. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think that helps a lot. I think if a person is either a person with a disability or a person who has a friend or family member with a disability, it certainly helps them to understand more what the needs are and how to go about dealing with it. And then if you have the additional talent, you've got a lot of ingredients for success, don't you? Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Your company's guiding belief is that if a survey is not accessible, the data is incomplete. Researchers can adjust their results for people who choose not to answer, but no statistical method can recover the voices of people who were never able to answer in the first place. And for listeners who have never thought of a survey as a barrier, why does that gap matter so much for the roughly 1.3 billion people worldwide living with significant disabilities and for the decisions made about their lives? Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. I mean, I think online forms are everywhere, you know? Companies— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Quite. Jerry Nicholson: Governments— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Jerry Nicholson: Universities. I mean, organizations are constantly wanting to collect data— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Jerry Nicholson: To understand the world that they are working within. And they often use an online form or a survey to do that because for them, it's a fairly easy and low-cost way of collecting data from a large number of people. So because of the prevalence of online forms, if you're a person with a disability and you face obstacles filling in an online form, whether it's, maybe it's, you can't navigate it easily using your keyboard, so things aren't announced in the right order, or if you arrive, you use a sign language and the form doesn't support the sign language, or if you have an intellectual disability and you're used to, or you find it helpful to have things in an Easy Read format. Jerry Nicholson: So really lots of different barriers that different people and different communities face when filling in a form. And that has sort of profound implications for an individual's right to be consulted, to have their opinion heard, to vote, to sign up for a service. But equally on the other side, it has implications for organizations, who— Yeah, I think we'll give organizations the benefit of the doubt in saying it's better for them if they include everyone in their data collection, for different reasons. If you're a business, that's customers or suppliers or employees. If you're an academic and you're doing research, that's the people who you want to consult so your research can become just representative and not biased. Or if you're a government, you want to consult all your citizens. So I think there's really good reasons both from an individual perspective and a human rights perspective, but also from an organizational perspective and wanting better data to make better decisions. Jerry Nicholson: So I think making forms and surveys accessible, I think it addresses both of those key requirements. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think one continuous concern for me personally is that I agree with what you're saying, but I don't think people have really given much credence to the fact that you're asking me to fill out a survey, but you're not paying me for it. You're getting my information for free, and I really, really don't— [laughs] I'm not very keen on that type of way of thinking. Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. I'd say to that, Donna, in terms of the survey, whether people are incentivized to fill in a survey or not, that is... I mean, you can run a survey on Accessible Surveys and offer incentives or rewards or payment for completing the survey. Or you cannot, but that's really... Yeah. I think making the survey accessible is really what we focus on— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Jerry Nicholson: In terms of the process that that survey takes place in, and whether that's a paid survey for consumer research or any other type of research. That's really a decision for the organization running the survey and a decision for the survey participant about whether they want to fill in the survey or not. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I agree with you. I just thought I would just voice my own personal opinion on the fact that too many organizations, you want... They are ask you to fill out a survey, but you're getting my information for free. You're getting my lived experience for free. Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I think it's about time respect should be shown to those of us who have unique experiences and unique skills. Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But anyway, I mean, that's not what you concentrate on. And clock is right— Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. Interestingly, Donna, you say... I mean, on that, the name of our company is Accessible Data, and Accessible Surveys is our first product. So we are actively looking at other products, and we certainly do. I mean, within the market research sector, they use paid panels a lot. So a company might come to them and say, "We really want to understand about the experiences of people who are blind or low vision when they're using our services in this part of the world," for instance. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Jerry Nicholson: And they will have a budget to pay for the insights on that subject. So there's no reason why we couldn't put a panel behind Accessible Surveys. Maybe it's Accessible Surveys, or maybe it's another product. And then have a panel of people with disabilities who then get invited to fill in surveys— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Jerry Nicholson: And receive rewards and payments for doing that. And potentially our relationship with IDA and their incredible network throughout the world opens up some opportunities to do that. But that is a slightly different product, and we— Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Jerry Nicholson: We're not there yet. But I take your point, Donna, 100%. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Clock is starting to wind down on me, so I wanted to ask you this final question here. What are your plans for the future? Well, you talked about other products. You talked about different things, but you got anything in your tank waiting to be disclosed or— Jerry Nicholson: [laughs] Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You want to share? Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. I mean, I suppose I feel that Accessible Data is really just sort of getting going. We're... Yeah, we're at a really exciting stage in that we have some brilliant customers, early adopting customers. We have a great product which is improving every day. But it really just feels that we're just taking our first... We're in the shallows at the moment, and there's so much scope to build the company and develop the company. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Jerry Nicholson: And as we do that, I think this thing of Nothing About Us Without Us and involving disabled people and people with lived experience not only as consumers of the product, but as teammates, as co-owners, as really part of who we are as an organization is really exciting and I think important, and I think that's the direction that we're going to go down. And I'd really love to look to develop relationships with networks like IDA, and there's also another network called the African Disability Forum. So looking at ways of involving organizations of disabled people more, that's where the business started. Our origins are in that relationship with IDA. But to really make that an active living part of who we are as a business and part of our future, that's really exciting for me. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think it is, and I think it opens up a lot of opportunities, again, to enable persons with disabilities to have their voices heard. We struggle to have our voices heard as a community, so any sort of innovation, any sort of initiative is always welcomed. And I wanna congratulate you on this. And also, in closing, I'd like to offer an invitation to you, if you have the time, to write a short article on what you do and how you do it. And what I would like to do is to publish it on my website, one of my websites, https://barrierfreecanada.org. Because I think it's important not just to have a podcast, but also your written word. So if you're interested, I'm gonna be sending out invitations to those who have been on my Remarkable World Commentary podcast. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So look for that, and if you're interested, I will not edit your article. I will simply post it as is. And I will also have your name there as well. So think of it, and an invitation will be coming your way in the next week or so. Jerry Nicholson: Brilliant. Okay. Well, yeah, thanks, Donna. It's a pleasure to speak with you today. And, yeah, thanks for inviting me onto your podcast to talk. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. It has been my pleasure, and you keep on going. [laughs] Jerry Nicholson: Okay. Thanks, Donna. Enjoy the rest of your day. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You too, Jerry. Thank you very much. Jerry Nicholson: Okay. Bye. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye-bye. Bye. Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #115: Ask Advocate Donna https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-10-02-2026/ In this practical episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA presents her October Ask Advocate Donna, opening with one of her favorite quotes, by an unknown author: speak in such a way that others love to listen to you, and listen in such a way that others love to speak to you. Her word game sets complacent against active, arguing that complacency leaves little room for advocacy while being active makes room for it, and then turns to in kind and unkind, wondering whether being cruel to be kind applies to the pair. Donna then shares three listener stories, asking of each what advocacy is, who gets involved, why it is necessary, how and when. A mother, Emily, told a desk agent that her son Emil was vision impaired to get a discounted pass, and Emil's friends spoke up; Donna calls this counter-advocacy and says using a disability to gain an advantage is not right. Rico was fined after his service dog left hair in an Uber; Donna says Uber must accept service dogs and should be called out, with Rico going from the company to a lawyer and social media. Finally, a medical assistant at a lab refused to help a vision-impaired patient undress and asked the patient's friend to do it; Donna says that was very wrong and advises reporting it to the doctor and then the medical association. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, and MBA invites you to listen to her bi-weekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello there. I'm Donna J. Jodhan, your Ask An Advocate host. Second episode for the month of October. Thank you everyone for joining me today, and thank you for responding to my call for your thoughts, your words, your comments, your feedback. Okay? So continue writing to me at [email protected], okay? [email protected] and keep on listening. You never know what you might come across in any of my podcasts and we go from there. All right, so let me start off today with one of my favorite quotes. And here goes: Speak in such a way that others love to listen to you, and listen in such a way that others love to speak to you. Unfortunately, this author is unknown. Now let's go to my word game, one of my favorite segments of my podcast. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay? Many times advocates have to choose between being complacent or being active. I will tell you that being complacent in my books doesn't happen very often. The minute that one is complacent, it means that they choose to ignore. They choose to not care. They choose simply to sit there and take it all in. Whereas on the flip side of the coin, you have active. So complacent versus active. Active is when you decide to do something about something. So complacent versus active. There are complacent advocates who really believe that being complacent is a way or a means of support. I don't fully agree. If you're complacent, I don't think there's much room for you to become involved in advocacy. Whereas if you become active, there is room for you. So let's think about it, complacent versus active. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right. Here's the other two terms I'd like you to think of for today. In kind or unkind. Do you do something to be kind? As they say, it's in kind that you are performing some action or doing something. Or unkind means that, you know, it's being viewed that you're not being kind, you're being unkind. I wonder if the thought of being cruel to be kind could be applied to these two terms. You're being cruel to be kind when it is unkind. Is that so? What do you think? Or in kind is if you're doing it because you honestly believe that it is a kind gesture. Send me your thoughts to [email protected]. Now we're going to move into the three stories of the month that our team has chosen for me to share with you, and here's the first story. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: A parent says that her son, little Timmy, is vision impaired. Why is she saying this? Emily told the agents at the desk that her little boy, not Timmy, Emil, was vision impaired. Emily wrote this story and sent it to us, okay? And she did so because she wanted to get a special rate for her little boy, Emil. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Emil's friends noticed what was going on. They noticed that Emily was telling the customer agent at the desk that little Emil was vision impaired. They took action. And this is a kind of a unique story in that Emil was not vision impaired, but the mother wanted to take advantage of something here by telling the customer agent that Emil was vision impaired. The friends knew differently, and the friends stepped up to the plate and said, "No, Emil is not vision impaired." What would you have advised the customer agent to do? Would you, in this instance, to avoid any sort of argument or disturbance, simply gone along with Emily's claim that little Emil was vision impaired and just simply issued a pass or a discounted pass to Emil? Or would you, like Emil's friends, stepped up to the plate and said, "No, this is not right." Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're using what I call counter-advocacy here. You're using a so-called disability to gain an advantage. Is this right? I don't know what you think, but in my books, it is not right. It is not right to say something that is not true, and it is not right to use a disability to try and gain an advantage. What is your suggestion? What are your thoughts? Okay. So here is what I would like you to think about. Are you on the side of the friends, or are you on the side of Emily, or what would you advise the customer agent to do? Tough decision, eh? So what is advocacy all about? What is advocacy all about here? Advocacy, in my books, in this instance, is advocating for the right thing, the honorable thing. And who gets involved with advocacy in this instance? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It is the friends who gets involved in advocacy because little Emil may be too embarrassed to do something, but his friends can. Why is it necessary here? Because it's a matter of stopping someone who has no conscience from trying to gain an advantage by saying that her son has a disability, and it is not so. How do you get involved in advocacy? You do so by exactly doing what the friends did. And when? When you see something that needs to be corrected. Let's move on to the second story. All right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Customer was penalized for having a service dog in an Uber cab. This is gaining a lot of attention, and Uber seems to not understand that the law or the regulations or the legislation says that they must accept service dogs. There is no other way, and this is a growing concern amongst our community here, for those with guide dogs. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, Rico had notified the Uber company that he had a service dog when he called them for a ride. Okay? At first, the driver said that the dog could go into the trunk. Okay? The driver said that the dog could sit with Rico in the backseat. Rico was then fined for his dog making a mess with its hairs or leaving its hairs on the seat or on the floor of the cab. What would be your advice to Rico? I know what mine would be. If I am very sure, and I think it is so, that legally Uber has to take a passenger with a service dog, then I would go much further. I will not take this because if this is what the law is, it is as it is, and Uber needs to be called out. There are too many people reporting on Facebook and even writing to me by telling me that this is the case. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So let's move on here. Okay? All right. What is advocacy all about? Advocacy here is when someone knows that the law says that the cab company must accept a passenger with a service dog. And the passenger has advised this, the Uber company. This is what advocacy is all about, fighting for your rights. Okay? Who gets involved in advocacy here? Well, it's Rico to start with, and then Rico's friends, and he does this through social media and by word of mouth. Why is it necessary? Because the Uber company is not adhering to what the law says. How do you get involved in advocacy? Rico starts the ball rolling. Rico goes to the Uber company to report what is going on. The Uber company does not do anything about it. Then Rico can go to or seek the services of a lawyer and post his experiences to social media. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: When do you get involved in advocacy? As I said above, when something is not right, when a company is not adhering to the law, and this appears to be the case here with Uber. Right. Let's move on now to the next story. Okay? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You have someone who wrote to us saying that a medical assistant at a lab refused to help a patient with a vision impairment. In a lab, we had a medical assistant who refused to help a patient with a vision impairment. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The assistant wanted the patient's friend to help her get undressed. No, no, no. For me, it is a no, no, no. Okay? The friend told the assistant that it was their duty to help the patient. Okay? And the patient reiterated this. What's wrong with this situation here? For the most part, we don't get undressed in front of our friends, do we? Unless it's our boyfriend or someone that we are intimate with. But normally, we do not get undressed in front of our friends, even our family. So for an assistant to say to the friend, "Help the patient," is wrong. Very, very wrong. And what advice I would give to this person, and I did give it, is to go report this incident to the doctor themselves, not just to the person at the desk, but to the doctor themselves, and you start going higher. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay? What is advocacy? It's advocating for something that must be offered by the medical assistant to the patient. It is a must. There's no other way. Asking a friend or a family member to help the patient get undressed is totally inacceptable. This is what advocacy is all about, advocating for equal treatment or advocating for something to be carried out when the assistant knows or should know better. Okay? This is what advocacy is all about. And who gets involved? Well, it's the patient first, then the friend, and then they build from there by going not just to the service desk or the administrative desk person, but going to the doctor themselves, and then you start going upwards from there. Hey, report it to the medical association. Report it to the person or the organization who is in charge of this lab. Okay? It doesn't happen like that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Why is advocacy necessary? It is necessary because this medical assistant crossed the line. And how do you get involved in advocacy? As I just stated above, patient, friend, go to the administrative desk of the office of the lab. Go to the doctor. Okay? And when do you get involved in advocacy? Again, as I said above, you get involved when you honestly believe that your privacy has been trampled upon or your rights have been trampled upon, and in this case, it is your privacy. Okay? So I am Donna J. Jodhan, thanking you for stopping by to listen to me today. Please keep on listening and sending your feedback to me at donnajodhan, D-O-N-N-A-J-O-D-H-A-N, @gmail.com. Thank you very much and see you next month. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #114: Left Out or Left Behind https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-10-01-2026/ In this pointed episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA opens October with a question she calls controversial: when barriers shut people with disabilities out, are they being left out or left behind? She points to online forms that banks, educational institutions and certification bodies still fail to make accessible, calling out the Apex organization for inaccessible sign-up forms, InnoSearch for trying and failing, and Pearson VUE for an online certification exam she says was not accessible in any way. She recounts trying to renew her business registration through ServiceOntario, where the online form was inaccessible and the first agent told her to find someone to help, until a third agent resolved it. She also raises elevators in medical buildings with no braille labels or speech, office buildings designed without accessible entrances, and the lack, as far as she knows, of a federal minister assigned to accessibility in Mark Carney's government, adding that she is a Mark Carney fan and would apologize if a minister has been named. Donna's story of the month comes from a listener with multiple disabilities who used her mental stretch to cope with a lack of compassion from management and coworkers. She walks through the technique: sit or lie somewhere quiet, choose one of the senses, such as the smell of lavender, and let it send messages from the brain through the whole body, from the toes up to the head. She closes by announcing that Your Mental Stretch with Donna will be refreshed in January with a new way of doing mental stretches and an experienced co-host who writes songs and uses music therapy. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, and MBA invites you to listen to her bi-weekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello there. I'm Donna J. Jodhan, and welcome to my first Remarkable World Commentary podcast for October. Goodness, October is here, and October is steaming along. And I wanna thank all those who have taken the time to either write to me at [email protected]. That is D-O-N-N-A-J-O-D-H-A-N, my first and last name, @gmail.com, or who have taken the time to respond to my podcast by listening to it, by reading the show notes. Thank you, everybody. So it is the first week in October, and for my topic, I have chosen a very controversial one, or I should say it's a question. It is all about left out or left behind. Which is it? And there are so many instances that I could refer to that talks about left out or left behind, and I want to give you some examples of what I mean, okay? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: When online forms are not accessible to persons with disabilities, is this reason to say that we are being left out or that we are being left behind? We have too many online forms that are not accessible. From the banks in the banking industry, and one of the main culprits are those educational institutions and those universities. Universities may be a bit better in this instance, but the institutions and organizations that are offering courses and certifications to those persons with a disability, and for me as a person who is vision impaired, these forms are not accessible. So it means that we cannot take certifications. We cannot take advantage of banking services. We cannot take advantage of special offers from stores and other types of organizations who offer these incentives. I'm going to call out the Apex persons or organization. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: When I first got to know them, they were with Novacoast. Now they're with somebody else, but I'm still gonna call them out because their online forms for signing up and for doing other activities with them were totally inaccessible, and they offered little to no help as to how to do it. So I had to pay somebody to do it. In the case of another company called InnoSearch, they tried. They really tried, but they failed. And in the case of the Pearson VUE organization, here is another well-known international organization/agency/whatever you want to call them, did not make the online exams or online certification exam that I took accessible in any way and did not seem interested in wanting to do it in any way. So are we being left out or left behind? I'll let you be the judge, okay? Another example is ServiceOntario. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So quite a few months ago, I decided that I needed to renew my business registration. Guess what? Couldn't do it because the online form was totally, totally inaccessible. There were no workarounds such as a face-to-face engagement with the ServiceOntario office. And the first agent that I dealt with had the nerve to tell me, "Find someone to help you." Find someone to help you. Is that her response to being left out or left behind, and did she care? No, she didn't care. The second agent was a little bit more responsive. And the third agent, I have to tell you, was absolutely magnificent. She did everything to help me out, and this meant that despite the fact that I was left out or left behind, there was a resolution, okay? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, what about those elevators at medical buildings? There are too many of them that do not have braille labels on their buttons. The elevator does not speak as it goes from floor to floor. Have we been left out, or have we been left behind, or have we been considered in any sort of way, especially so in a medical building? And there are other examples of other types of buildings, but I'm zooming in on the medical buildings for now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Or when an office building is being designed with no accessible entrances or exits, what does that tell you? Are we being left out? Are we being left behind as persons with disabilities, or even other types of groups? You have seniors, or what about moms with strollers? Are we being left out or are we being left behind? I want you to tell me, okay? Or there is still no specific minister that has been assigned by the Canadian government to deal with issues pertaining to accessibility. What does this really mean? For I will tell you, I am a Mark Carney fan, but that doesn't mean I'm not gonna call out his government for still not having assigned a designated minister to deal with accessibility issues. Left out or left behind? Or if he has assigned a minister, I'd like someone to tell me, and I would apologize. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm not afraid to do that. Left out or left behind? What is it? Please write to me at donnajodhan, D-O-N-N-A-J-O-D-H-A-N, @gmail.com and let me know your thoughts, okay? All right. Here's my story of the month, okay? For someone who used Our Mental Stretch to deal with the situation of no compassion in the workplace. This person had multiple disabilities. They were not just vision impaired, but they were also hard of hearing. And unfortunately, management and several fellow employees did not show any compassion in the workplace. So this person asked me not to give their name. I'd love to, but they told me or asked me not to. Told me that they came across Our Mental Stretch with Donna podcast and decided to say, you know, why not? Let's use it. Let's see what happens. So what they did is they used the mental stretch. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And what is the mental stretch all about? It is using the different senses to generate responses when the body is called upon, and it helps to refresh, regurgitate, rejuvenate, renew. So it works like this. So if, for example, you have something you want to deal with, you can either sit in your chair, or lie in bed, or sit anywhere that is quiet. Next, you choose a sense. Probably let's go with the sense of smell for this one. You could use a sense of smell, sense of touch, sense of taste, sense of sight, sense of hearing, okay? So we're gonna use a sense of smell. They concentrate on a favorite smell, okay? So let's say smell of lavender. I'm choosing one of my favorite smells. They start inhaling a small, not container. What's the word that I'm looking for? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Vial of lavender, okay? Or they pretend that they are smelling lavender. What this does, it starts to send different messages to different parts of the body, and soon you find yourself really into it, really stretching the mental capacity. So it starts with the body getting involved, okay? You start with your toes, then your feet, your ankles, your legs, your knees, your thighs, your tummy, your back, way up to the head and the brain. And the brain soon starts telling these various parts of the body, "Hey, wake up. You have work to do." All right? So you can feel the entire experience starting with toes and going up. All right? Or you can start with the brain. Let's start with the brain. The brain is always the place where you start. You start there, and your sense of smell starts to stimulate the brain. And soon the brain is sending messages all throughout your body. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: This is what my mental stretch is all about. And I have an announcement to make in that coming in January, we are going to refresh Your Mental Stretch with Donna, and we're going to have a brand-new way of doing mental stretches. It's exciting. I can't wait to start it. And it's with a very experienced co-host who has written lots of songs, sells them online, is into using music therapy. Two more months, and you will hear from us. That's it for me for this week, everybody. Thank you very much for tuning in. Have a great day, and we'll see you again very soon. Bye for now. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.