Haystacks & Hell

Support the Show • This re-upload of Abby and Ami's original show SDAP dives into the complex and often contradictory relationship between music and the Seventh-day Adventist faith. Abby, Ami, Alex, and friends talk about their experiences with church music, worldly music, hypocrisy, destroying CDs, and just plain weirdness.00:00 Story Previews 00:27 Haystacks and Hell Intro 00:44 Episode Intro 01:33 Abby, Ami, and Alex on Music 07:17 Adventist Attitudes on Music 15:15 "Christian Rock" 19:56 Church vs. Academy 28:06 Destroying CDs 30:16 Music Taste and Hypocrisy 46:43 Dorms and Music Contraband 53:19 Guest Stories 58:50 OutroFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook • r/exAdventist — Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast (https://hell.bio/sdap) • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com/) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Did you ever get scolded for the music you played in church? We're diving into traditional Seventh-day Adventist attitudes toward music and talking about my own personal experience with music while growing up in the church. We'll also cover historical Protestant views on organs, early Adventist resistance to musical instruments, and the silly debate around Christian Contemporary Music.-SantiagoSources:SDAs didn't use instruments for first 3 decadesFirst documented use of an organ in 1877E.J. Waggoner "Solo singing has no rightful place..."Ira Sankey hymns called the "devil's tunes"Alma Blackmon quote re: White elitist professorsWho is Heinrich Schenker and why should you care?Music Theory and the White Racial FrameMusic Theory and White SupremacyJacob Aranza InterviewRock Is Dead, Thank GodIFPI 2023 Global Music ReportSpotify Top Trends of 2023Who killed the CCM industry?SDA propaganda given to me:10 SHOCKING "FACTS" (BS) About CCMInside Rock Music by Vance FerrellTed Wilson Facebook PostSeventh-day Adventist Philosophy of MusicRecommended reading:The Devil’s Music - How Christians Inspired, Condemned, and Embraced Rock ’n’ Roll00:00 Intro00:16 My Background with Music06:28 Local Cultures Define Worship Styles07:47 Protestants Hated the Organ?10:21 Early Adventists Didn't Use Instruments15:18 Racist Attitudes17:58 Music Theory in the US19:31 Rock and CCM21:17 Anti-CCM SDA YouTuber24:50 Inside Rock Music28:02 Jacob Aranza, Satanic Panic Provocateur34:18 Recap and OutroFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook • r/exAdventist —Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Santiago discusses the current political climate, especially the continued rise of Christian Nationalism in the United States, while reflecting on his personal journey from right-wing authoritarian beliefs to greater empathy and understanding. Listeners are encouraged to stay informed, participate in local elections, maintain hope for justice and positive change. Resources / Topics Mentioned:Reddit Post - "My dad woke my fears" Blog Post - Trump in office Ten Days: the Seventh-day Adventist Church wrote "Keep your mouth shut" Book - Armageddon by Bart Ehrman Video - Data Over Dogma Interview with Bart Ehrman Video - Skeptic.com Interview with Bart Ehrman Podcast - Sunday School Dropouts PDF - Ben Carson's Project 2025 Contribution Video - Don't Believe Him - Ezra KleinIndependent Media Suggestions:DemocracyNow.org / YouTube Colonial Outcasts Podcast Drop Site News Breaking Points Legal Eagle - WTF is DOGE? Last Week Tonight Adam Conover More Perfect Union00:00 Intro and Season 3 Kickoff01:07 Political Climate and Deconstruction03:48 Personal Journey and Reflections06:11 Anxiety and End Times11:14 Christian Nationalism26:38 Encouragement and Resources Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes— Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Part 2 of Santiago's interview with Dee. We discussed his questioning of Adventism and Christianity in general, Satanic Panic, his evolving perspectives on religion, and having empathy for believers. We also talked about Dee's move to Sweden, his childhood connection to Dr. Ben Carson, and how the Ben Carson on TV is not the same man Dee once knew.Resources / Topics Mentioned: Song - I'm Afraid I'll Go to Heaven by Moon Walker Book - Inside Rock Music (SDA anti-rock propaganda) Artist - Erykah Badu Video - Erykah Badu NPR Tiny Desk Concert Article - Dr. Ben Carson Video - Carson 1997 National Prayer Breakfast Speech @ 34:53 Video - Carson 2013 National Prayer Breakfast Speech @ 34:1000:00 Intro 01:05 Part 2 of Dee's Story 02:34 The Historical Jesus 04:42 Personal Tragedy and Realizations 07:34 Why Do People Leave? 13:47 Empathy for Believers 21:41 Segregated Conferences 26:17 Sweden, Racism, and CRT 32:58 Music and Satanic Panic 44:00 Dr. Ben Carson 49:39 Moving to Sweden 54:02 Ethics and Adventism 1:05:37 Closing Thoughts Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Part 1 of Santiago's interview with Dee, a fourth-generation Seventh-day Adventist, about his SDA background, early baptism, education, and what led him out of the church. In our wide-ranging conversation, we discussed racial issues in Adventist schools, the Civil Rights Movement, and more.Resources / Topics Mentioned: Video - We Are the World Topic - Public Enemy Film - Malcolm X (1992) Topic - Assassination of MLK Jr. Topic - Poor People's Campaign Topic - The 15 Year Battle for MLK Jr Day Video - MLK: "A riot is the language of the unheard" Topic - White Americans Celebrated MLK's Death Topic - Ronald Reagan's wartime lies 00:00 Intro00:17 Meet Dee: 4th Gen Adventist02:49 Early Memories & Fearing Ellen White04:01 Questioning Church Teachings09:02 A Life-Changing Tragedy11:04 Living with Fear & Moving to Huntsville19:01 Baptism and Religious Pressure22:26 Purity Culture & Mixed Messages28:51 Weird "Health Message" Fads31:29 Racial Issues in Adventist Schools38:11 Civil Rights, Division, MLK43:30 Deconstructing Beliefs47:02 How Othering Manipulates Us53:07 The New Generation55:29 Trickle Down Greedonomics1:00:42 Dee's Adventist Education1:07:16 Goodbye Oakwood, Hello Adulthood1:11:26 OutroFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy —Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Part 2 of Santiago's interview with Rosei Quartz, a former Seventh-day Adventist pastor's kid, content creator, and Twitch streamer. In this episode, we cover more of Rosei's deconstruction, finding contentment and a new outlook on life, complementarianism, consent, mental health, becoming a content creator, and more.Resources / Topics Mentioned: Links - Rosei Quartz's Links Podcast - Rosei Quartz's Podcast Topic - Complementarianism Topic - Attachment Styles Topic - Bill Gothard's "Umbrella of Protection" Reddit - ex-SDA comments on Gothard's Umbrella Topic - The FRIES Model of Consent Book - #ChurchToo: How Purity Culture Upholds Abuse and How to Find Healing Topic - Youth Wilderness / Troubled Teen Industry Topic - SWERF Definition Topic - BITE Model of Authoritarian Control Topic - Adventist GC "Human Sexuality Task Force" Podcast - S1B2 - Human Sexuality Task Force Topic - Weaponized Incompetence Podcast - The Dream (Examining MLMs)00:00 Intro00:17 Rosei's Deconstruction05:16 Contentment and New Worldview13:47 Complementarianism Hurts Everyone20:36 Purity Culture & Consent22:10 Journey into Online SW28:10 Work is Work32:27 Online SW vs. Traditional Work36:33 SWERFs vs. Autonomy45:04 Adventist Leadership52:52 Advice for Leaving the Church55:20 Where to Find Rosei 57:22 OutroFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Santiago interviews Rosei Quartz, a former Seventh-day Adventist pastor's kid, content creator, and Twitch streamer. Rosei shares her Adventist upbringing, the pressures of parasocial relationships, and the high expectations placed upon her as a pastor’s kid. We cover her journey out of Adventism and how studying psychology played a big role.Resources / Topics Mentioned: Links - Rosei Quartz's Links Podcast - Rosei Quartz's PodcastPodcast - Armchair Expert - Cults (Rosei starts at 50:08)Topic - ComplementarianismBook - #ChurchToo: How Purity Culture Upholds Abuse and How to Find HealingTopic - LARPingTopic - Startle ResponseTopic - Cry NightsTopic - Hypervigilance & HyperawarenessTopic - Terror Management TheoryTopic - Thought-terminating clichéPodcast - H&H S1:E4 - When Did You Learn About...Playlist - Debunking Young Earth Creationism00:00 Intro00:13 Meet Rosei Quartz01:17 SDA Family History & Early Memories04:31 Sabbath Mornings07:33 Pastor's Kid Pressures17:48 Spiritual Manipulation & Content Creation26:49 Health Message & Ellen White30:28 "Spiritual Warfare" & Psychology38:28 Terror Management Theory41:55 Why Rosei Left Adventism43:35 Harmful Beliefs & Pseudoscience55:12 Crossing Ethical Boundaries57:46 Ethics & Behavior Modification1:00:37 High Demand Religion & Mental Health1:05:11 Personal Growth Outside the Church1:14:14 OutroFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Santiago shares some personal news, updates on the future of the show, and listener stories.Resources / Topics Mentioned:Slate: Why Do We Give Our Pets Death With Dignity but Not Ourselves? S1:E2 - Do You Believe in an Afterlife?More Listener Stories Podcast Resources Book ResourcesFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Part 2 of Santiago's interview with Andres Pichinte (They/Them), a Gen Z ex-Adventist who went from fundamentalist Adventism and going door to door for two summers with Youth Rush, to exploring esotericism and now Orthodox Christianity. We discussed the sales tactics used by Youth Rush, the books they sold and beliefs they encountered, misadventures in door-to-door evangelism, and more. Resources / Topics Mentioned:Andres' Website & Bio Youth Rush Article - Spectrum Magazine00:00 - Haystacks & Hell Intro00:34 - Youth Rush Canvassing Sales Tactics06:49 - Books and Beliefs20:58 - Misadventures in Door-to-Door Evangelism25:39 - From Fast Food to Film School32:04 - Embracing Diversity and Finding Acceptance37:28 - Exploring Orthodoxy46:06 - Closing Thoughts48:12 - Haystacks & Hell OutroFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy —Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook—Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show — Santiago interviews Andres Pichinte (They/Them), a Gen Z ex-Adventist who went from fundamentalist Adventism and going door to door for Youth Rush (for two summers), to exploring esotericism and now Orthodox Christianity. We talk about growing up Adventist, being surrounded by conspiracy theories, and moments that made them question their Adventist faith.Resources / Topics Mentioned: Andres' Website & Bio The Hairbrush Song - Silly Songs with Larry His Cheeseburger - Love Songs with Mr. Lunt Youth Rush Article - Spectrum MagazineFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License