Climate Unf*cked

Lennard de Klerk is the lead author of the Initiative on Greenhouse Gas Accounting of War and has worked on climate change for more than 25 years. Today, his focus is the emissions from war and the military, including the work of calculating the climate cost of the war in Ukraine. In this conversation, I wanted to ask Lennard whether NATO’s push towards 3.5% of GDP on defence can ever sit alongside net zero, and why most military emissions come from peacetime operations rather than active conflict. Lennard breaks down where the roughly 311 million tonnes of CO2 from four years of war in Ukraine came from, including warfare itself, landscape fires, reconstruction and rerouted flights, explains how fossil fuel dependence is also a security weakness, and shares what a post-war rebuild with hemp, recycled steel and low-carbon cement could look like. We also chat about the effort to have Russia held accountable for climate damage through the Council of Europe’s compensation process, what the social cost of carbon really measures, and why Lennard stopped flying within Europe. —— Find Lennard’s work: https://www.linkedin.com/company/warbon/?originalSubdomain=ua Subscribe to the Climate Unf*cked podcast at https://climateunfucked.substack.com/ And connect with me on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-coop/ —— 0:00 Does increasing defence spending shatter climate targets? 4:40 The 2 competing worlds of defence and climate 8:14 Why calculate the Ukraine war carbon emissions? 12:35 Military emissions are 5.5% of the global total 15:55 The war in Ukraine as another Finland 17:15 What militaries say when you bring up their emissions 20:53 Cutting fossil fuels is a defence strategy 27:32 Biofuels, hydrogen and the alternative fuel problem 29:36 Militaries have gone quiet on their climate targets 30:16 Where the emissions from the war in Ukraine come from 34:24 Wildfires fuelled by war and climate change 37:00 Rebuilding Ukraine with cement and steel 39:32 The flight detours caused by closed Russian airspace 43:28 Building back better, with hemp and recycled concrete 48:06 Replanting Ukraine’s forests for a hotter future 49:24 Can Russia be held liable for climate damage? 56:18 Can a Russian superyacht fund climate claims? 59:08 What on earth is the social cost of carbon? 1:03:18 Why Lennard stopped flying within Europe 1:06:48 Balancing personal footprint with the huge war emissions 1:10:00 The question Lennard wishes more people would ask

Bob Ward is Policy and Communications Director at the LSE’s Grantham Research Institute on Climate Change and the Environment who started out as a science reporter at the Daily Telegraph, and one of the few people willing to take on climate sceptics in public, from debating Nigel Farage on GB News to addressing oil and gas executives at International Petroleum Week. In this conversation, Bob explains why he thinks climate has become a culture war that leaves everyone stuck, why many sceptical arguments about the science are really proxies for fears about government regulation or daily life, and why he separates bad faith actors from people who have simply been misled. We get into the Frank Luntz memo, the shift from denial to delay and the rise of the “lukewarmers”, how climate got caught up in the culture war, and why Bob believes dropping the phrase “net zero” would be a mistake. We also cover the “less than 1% of emissions” argument, why the message of sacrifice doesn’t sell, what a warming climate could cost the UK economy, and why the insurance industry is so alarmed. —— Bob’s LSE Grantham Climate Institute (inc. all research, media and policy) https://www.lse.ac.uk/granthaminstitute/profile/bob-ward/ Subscribe to the Climate Unf*cked podcast at https://climateunfucked.substack.com/ And connect with me on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-coop/ —— Chapters 0:00 Who is winning the climate culture war? 3:11 Why are culture wars bad? 6:09 Who is the villain? 12:14 Does debating sceptics actually change minds? 14:35 The memo that changed science denial forever 16:31 Should you share a stage with bad faith arguments? 20:06 Being right doesn’t win arguments 25:20 From “it’s not happening” to “just grow wine” 33:41 How the UK caught the US culture war 40:36 Should we stop using the phrase ‘Net Zero’? 44:29 “The UK is less than 1% of emissions” 49:38 Have we really failed to bring the public along? 56:20 Is consuming less the answer? 1:00:49 Is flying worth it? 1:05:39 What climate change could cost the UK economy 1:10:51 Why the insurance industry is sounding the alarm 1:15:12 Why you rarely meet a CEO who denies the science 1:18:35 The question Bob is sick of being asked 1:22:10 What Bob wishes more people would ask him

I had the privilege of hosting 3 incredible guests who each deserve an episode of their own. We tackled the topic of optimism, solutions and how the climate story needs to move on to the part where we’re saving the world, not just saying how f*cked we are. Lucy Siegle is a journalist, broadcaster and author who has reported on climate, nature and the fashion industry's footprint for two decades, including as a reporter on BBC One's The One Show. Angus Hervey is a political economist and the founding editor of Fix The News, the solutions journalism newsletter that goes looking for the progress the headlines usually miss. Solitaire Townsend is the co-founder and Chief Solutionist of Futerra, the sustainability agency, and the author of The Solutionists, a book on how business can fix the future. Together, we each brought a climate solution we’re excited about and discussed them. —— Links Fix The News: https://fixthenews.com/ Futerra: https://www.wearefuterra.com/ Solitaire’s website for books, speaking and more: https://www.solitairetownsend.com/ Lucy’s Substack: https://theweathermakers.substack.com/ —— We also cover: The stat that 50% of under 30s think we're doomed, and what that has done to the youth climate movement Why the climate movement has been stuck at the "inciting incident" of the story for 30 years How Just Stop Oil briefly pushed climate coverage level with mentions of ghosts and cake Why climate scientists are more hopeful than the public, and why recycling is still the solution people name most Angus on why 2026 has been a low wildfire year globally, and why cameras in Western Europe skew our perception Why Angus thinks the biggest climate story is China, from its EV boom to its emissions plateauing How giving indigenous groups land tenure could keep carbon in the ground (only 14% have official tenure, according to Angus) Why fear doesn't motivate most people, and the pioneers, settlers and prospectors model Lucy on Suzanne Simard's forest research and a tourism-funded recovery project with the Hamalco people in British Columbia Restage, a plan to recirculate the props and sets the UK film and theatre industry throws away How writers and filmmakers can weave climate solutions into romance, action and everyday stories The National Emergency Briefing and why it gives people something to do next Why Solitaire and Lucy argue that dismissing personal action is sexist, including the women-led sugar boycotts Angus on why the UK is doing better than most countries on cutting emissions —— 0:00 Why doom does the same job as denial 3:58 Why half of under 30s think we're doomed 6:07 The climate story is stuck in act one 9:29 The fuck doom hats and the waiter who loved one 13:20 Why optimism is a political act 15:10 Ghosts, cake and Just Stop Oil 20:37 Why experts are more hopeful than the public 23:08 Why the world isn't actually on fire 24:50 Climate change is really a China story 27:30 Indigenous land beats locked off parks 29:31 Will good news make people complacent? 32:31 Climate people are the weirdos 34:18 Growing up on coal, now living on solar 37:53 "Is coal bad?" 40:37 Suzanne Simard and the mother tree 42:50 Using tourism money to heal and restore land 47:00 What happens to film sets after the shoot 49:41 On track for five to eight degrees in 1997 51:30 Storytelling is curated emotion, not facts 57:05 Where's the electric Aston Martin in Bond? 59:20 The National Emergency Briefing 1:04:10 Inside the room at the National Emergency Briefing 1:07:33 Why we need to drop the personal action divide 1:12:34 Who benefits when personal action gets dismissed 1:15:40 The UK is doing better than you think

Manjeet Dhakal is Advisor to the Chair of the UN's Least Developed Countries Group and Director of Climate Analytics' South Asia office. He’s been involved with climate negotiations and diplomacy for almost 20 years and now helps the world's most climate-vulnerable nations negotiate international climate policy. He's currently completing a PhD and recently published research on climate attribution in Nepal. Dr Manal Shehabi, an applied development economist and Senior Research Fellow at Oxford's Institute for New Economic Thinking, who also teaches Economics for Public Policy at the Blavatnik School of Government and sits on Oxford's Children and Climate Initiative. On August 26th, 2026, a catastrophic flood devastated Nepal's Langtang Valley. A mass of ice and rock detached from a Himalayan peak at approximately 5,200 metres and triggered a flood that has killed more than 1,300 people and left 5,000+ missing. This conversation walks through what actually happened, why the Himalayas are warming faster than almost anywhere else on Earth, why Nepal producing 0.1% of global emissions makes this a sobering example of climate injustice, and much more. —— Manjeet’s July paper Climate-induced loss and damage in Nepal: attribution analysis and institutional readiness for international support: https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/climate/articles/10.3389/fclim.2026.1782991/full Manal Shehabi: https://www.inet.ox.ac.uk/people/manal-shehabi —— Subscribe to the Climate Unf*cked podcast at https://climateunfucked.substack.com/ And connect with me on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-coop/ —— Chapters 0:00 What Manjeet saw on the ground 5:08 The new kind of disaster we're facing 9:18 Why the Himalayas are called the third pole 10:13 How permafrost collapse triggered the avalanche 12:07 Why 2 billion people depend on Himalayan glaciers, and the immediate human cost 15:32 Nepal's interconnection with China and India 22:07 Why mountain regions warm faster than the rest of the planet 24:38 The science behind ice, rock, and heat absorption 25:30 Climate justice: Nepal's 0.1% of emissions 26:37 Historical vs current emissions: who pays? 28:55 Why adaptation funding isn't enough, and intergenerational injustice 34:33 What a just response to this disaster looks like 35:34 Why the Loss and Damage Fund hasn't responded 40:55 Concessional grants vs debt, and why we can't treat disasters as isolated 44:32 What you can actually do

Holly Alpine spent a decade at Microsoft, co-founding the company's 10,000-strong employee sustainability group and running programs for data center communities. Then she discovered something that made her leave: the company was signing contracts explicitly designed to help fossil fuel companies extract more oil and gas, faster and cheaper, using AI. Now she's leading one of the only campaigns in the world working to expose what she calls the most underestimated climate threat of the AI era. —— The peer reviewed journal article: https://www.nature.com/articles/s44168-026-00411-0 Enabled Emissions campaign website: https://www.enabledemissions.com/ Subscribe to the Climate Unf*cked podcast at https://climateunfucked.substack.com/ And connect with me on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-coop/ —— Chapters 0:00 AI’s Climate Impact Isn’t What You Think 2:06 What Holly saw Inside Microsoft 5:13 The Emissions Nobody Is Counting 8:45 Why AI Helps Fossil Fuels Far More Than Renewables 12:16 Winning Sustainability Awards While Helping Exxon Drill More 16:10 What AI Actually Does Inside an Oil Well 19:34 The Undrillable Wells AI Made Viable 24:08 Why Fiduciary Duty Is Corporate Folklore 28:52 The Promises Microsoft Made and Didn't Keep 32:21 How Data Centers Became the Entire Climate Story 36:48 You're Only Looking at One Team's Points 40:33 The Biggest Loophole in Climate Accounting 43:36 The Climate Blind Spot Nobody Noticed for a Decade 47:42 Why Pension Funds Are Starting to Listen 52:00 The Coalition Forming Against AI Expansion 56:32 What Keeps Holly Going and What You Can Do

“A newsletter for people pissed off about the climate crisis” is the tagline of Emily Atkin’s newsletter, HEATED. She’s one of the foremost climate journalists in the US and the founder of Heated, an independent newsletter with 150k subscribers dedicated to accountability journalism on the climate crisis. Originally trained in traditional mainstream media outlets like The New Republic, she left to build her own publication in 2019 after growing frustrated with the reluctance to cover climate change as the power and corruption story it really is. She now writes for people who are pissed off about the climate crisis and want to understand the forces blocking action. This conversation goes deep into why Emily believes climate change should be covered as a corruption story, not an environmental one. We talk about how BP invented the term "carbon footprint" as a marketing campaign to shift attention away from corporate responsibility, why the fossil fuel industry has been allowed to privatise profits while socialising the costs of climate damage onto everyone else, and why that arrangement is profoundly corrupt. Emily explains why she thinks journalism's obsession with objectivity has made outlets wimps and cowards, why anger is her most powerful tool as a journalist, and why she refuses to comfort people with hope when what they really need is information to act. We also cover why right wing billionaires buying up media outlets is creating an information crisis, why she spent months investigating an anti solar influencer with two million followers, and why she believes media literacy is one of the biggest barriers to climate action. Emily shares what it's like running an independent publication that refuses to paywall climate news, why she thinks individual action matters more than she used to, and why she wishes more people would leak her documents from inside their companies instead of asking her what gives her hope. —— Find Emily's work at Heated: https://heated.world/ Subscribe to the Climate Unf*cked podcast at https://climateunfucked.substack.com/ And connect with me on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-coop/ —— Chapters 00:00 Why is climate change a sexy corruption story? 04:30 How BP invented the carbon footprint to shift blame 09:15 Why people feel relief when you reframe climate as a power problem 13:40 What Emily tells people who ask "what can I do?" 18:20 We need to support real journalism 22:50 What the billionaire takeover of media means for climate coverage 28:35 AI’s worst impact isn’t from data centres 34:10 The anti solar influencer with 2m followers 42:25 Why acknowledging downsides makes your argument stronger 48:15 Journalism is about telling the truth, not building bridges 53:40 Why Emily's tagline is "for people who are pissed off" 1:00:20 Compassion without anger becomes pity 1:06:45 How readers respond to emotional, personal climate journalism 1:11:30 Betting platforms are incentivising wildfire arson 1:14:50 Why Emily changed her mind on individual action 1:17:20 The fiction book Emily wants to write about climate absurdity 1:20:35 Why she's tired of being asked what gives her hope 1:23:50 What Emily wishes people would ask her instead

Professor Paul Behrens of the Oxford martin School at the University of Oxford works at the intersection of food systems, climate change, and food security. Originally trained in physics and astronomy, he spent years working on energy systems before turning his attention to what he now believes is one of the most fragile and underestimated threats we face: the food system that feeds us. Paul is the author of the popular science book, The Best of Times, The Worst of Times: Futures from the Frontiers of Climate Science (Indigo Press, 2021) which describes humanity’s current trajectory and possible futures in paired chapters of pessimism and hope. His research and writing on climate, energy, and food, has appeared in scientific journals and media outlets such as the BBC, The Guardian, Thomson Reuters, Politico, Nature Sustainability, Nature Energy, PNAS, Nature Food, and We cover Climate change is already driving a third of food price inflation in the UK, with drought, flooding, geopolitical instability, and energy shocks potentially pushing prices to 1970s levels The UK holds between three days and three weeks of food storage; Finland has nine months A Joint Intelligence Committee report on ecosystem collapse was suppressed before being released in abridged form. Animals lose between 80–97% of the calories fed to them; that inefficiency becomes catastrophic as climate change shrinks the productive biosphere Shifting to a planetary health diet could reduce emissions by 61%, spare an area the size of Scotland, and save the NHS tens of billions of pounds a year We massively underestimate each other's willingness to act on climate — 60% of people intending to vote Reform support onshore wind turbines Over 40% of the UK supports a meat tax, despite politicians treating it as political suicide Food price spikes historically drive political instability and state collapse; climate change contributed to the Syrian conflict and is already destabilising politics worldwide Trump's election and the current political atmosphere are partly driven by climate impacts we're not naming as such Denmark's food transition plan is the most credible government approach in the world New York hospitals made plant-based meals the default and found them cheaper, healthier, and more popular Far more grazing land could support arable agriculture than commonly assumed Heritage arguments about land use are recent and shouldn't override future food security Rewilding and nature management could increase farmer incomes while restoring biodiversity —— Find Paul's work and research at the University of Oxford Read the National Emergency Briefing at https://www.nebriefing.org/ Subscribe to the Climate Unf*cked podcast at https://climateunfucked.substack.com/ And connect with me on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-coop/ —— Chapters 00:00 Should we be worried about food system collapse? 04:03 Are we choosing this change or being forced into it? 04:33 The thermodynamics of a shrinking food supply 07:22 What the "planetary health diet" looks like 09:30 How to rewild land the size of Scotland 11:54 Why food decisions are emotional 13:48 We wildly underestimate how much people care 16:25 Meat Tax 18:52 The purpose of misinformation 24:47 How much bad diets are costing the NHS 27:12 The supressed gov. report on food collapse 33:11 The link between food prices and state collapse 36:04 Trump, cost of living and the politics of instability 38:33 Is any country actually food secure? 41:01 The UK has 3 days of food storage. Finland has 9 months 46:19 Could we grow crops on grazing land instead? 51:07 Why plants = electrification for humans 55:58 Denmark's groundbreaking plan 59:10 The NYC hospital expreiment 1:01:02 Paul's billboard message to the world 1:03:48 The one paper Paul wishes everyone would read 1:05:14 What to actually do today

Dr Mark Harber is a consultant nephrologist (kidney doctor) and the Royal College of Physicians' special adviser on healthcare sustainability and climate change. He's spent years working at the intersection of medicine and the environment as a member of the Sustainable Kidney Care committee, a clinical lead for the NHS London sustainability group, and an advisor to the UCL Partners Climate Collaborative. Now, he helps shape how the RCP advocates and lobbies on healthcare's role in the climate crisis. This conversation goes deep into the surprisingly stark relationship between heat and human health: why the death rate in London starts climbing at just 24 degrees, why 2026's June heatwave in the UK heatwave produced an estimated 2,900 excess deaths, and why chronic conditions from epilepsy to kidney failure get dramatically worse as the mercury rises. Mark explains why big national statistics can feel strangely meaningless next to a single hospital admission, and why he believes there's little point terrifying the public without giving them something practical to do about it. We talk about the NHS's own outsized carbon footprint (around 5% of the UK's total, more than the aviation industry) and why it became the first health system in the world to commit to net zero, back in 2019. Mark explains the hidden environmental cost of kidney dialysis, which can use 400 litres of water per session and carries 16 times the carbon footprint of an average NHS patient, and why the UK is on track to be 6 billion litres of water short every day by 2050. We also cover the less obvious ways climate change threatens healthcare itself: 90% of English hospitals at risk of overheating, a tenth to a third at risk of flooding, and disease-carrying mosquitoes now established in France and Italy that never used to survive this far north. —— Learn more about the RCP's Green Physician Toolkit at https://www.rcp.ac.uk/policy-and-campaigns/our-policy-priorities/climate-and-sustainability/green-physician-toolkit/ Find the National Emergency Briefing at https://www.nebriefing.org/ Find Real Zero's 7 Acts to Save the World at https://www.realzero.earth Subscribe to the Climate Unf*cked podcast at https://climateunfucked.substack.com/ And connect with me on LinkedIn at: /rob-coop https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-coop/ —— Chapters 0:00 Why 24°C Already Raises the Death Rate 2:52 The Grim Maths Behind 2,900 Excess Deaths 4:17 Why Big Climate Numbers Feel Meaningless 6:20 Should We Be Scaring the Public About Heat? 8:13 The Delhi Cooling Rooms Saving Tuk-Tuk Drivers 10:41 Why Flights Are Up 80% in 20 Years 12:15 The Healthcare Sector Emits More Than Aviation 15:43 Why Institutions Fear the "Art of the Possible" 18:43 Why Your Dialysis Machine Has a Bigger Carbon Footprint 23:13 The Hospital Built to Handle Only 28°C 25:09 The Mosquito Bringing Dengue to Britain 27:35 Methane Is 80 Times Worse Than CO2 29:53 You're More Likely to Leave Your Partner Than Your Bank 33:18 Why Doctors Won't Sell You on Climate 37:12 How One Kilo of Plastic Costs Three of Oil 40:22 Why Politicians Won't Just Tell Us the Truth 44:50 The Hidden Kidney Risk in London's Air 49:43 The Hospital That Stopped Mowing Its Lawns 53:20 What Climate Activism Can Learn From Medicine 56:30 Why "What Can I Do?" Is Almost Enough 59:43 Tell Your Canvasser Climate Change Matters

Per Espen Stoknes is a psychologist, economist, and one of the world's leading experts on why climate change feels so hard to act on—and what actually works to break through that paralysis. He's the author of ‘What We Think About When We Try Not to Think About Global Warming’, ‘Tomorrow's Economy: A Guide to Creating Healthy Green Growth’ and ‘Earth for All: A Survival Guide for Humanity’ He’s associate professor and co-director of the BI Center for Sustainability and Energy, and someone who's spent decades unpacking the psychological barriers that keep us stuck: distance, doom, dissonance, denial, and identity. This conversation goes deep into the mechanics of climate psychology—why telling people what to do almost always backfires, why inequality is one of the biggest accelerants of climate inaction, and why the pendulum swings of history might be our strangest source of hope. We talk about why comedy and messengers like Joe Rogan matter more than scientists think, why AI and privacy loss mirror the climate crisis psychologically, and why Per believes the next frontier isn't just decarbonisation—it's rewilding finance itself. We cover why attacking someone's identity shuts down climate conversation immediately, how social trust is the variable that determines whether governments can actually implement climate policy, and why the UK cutting 2% of global emissions matters far more than the math suggests. Per explains why the five barriers to climate action—distance, doom, dissonance, denial, and identity—also apply to digital privacy and AI, why inequality creates a vicious cycle that makes climate action nearly impossible, and why universal basic income might be one of the most powerful climate policies we're not talking about. We also talk about why Per thinks Trump's second term might accidentally be the pendulum swing we need, why possibilism is a better philosophical framework than optimism or pessimism, and why the people with the answers—indigenous communities—are the ones we keep ignoring. He shares his vision for biodiversity credits that pay land stewards for regeneration, why AI could either accelerate the climate transition or make inequality catastrophically worse, and why the questions he wishes people would ask are about the assumptions underneath everything we're doing. —— Find Per's work at stoknes.com Learn more about Earth for All at earth4all.life Subscribe to the Climate Unf*cked podcast at https://climateunfucked.substack.com/ And connect with me on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-coop/ —— Chapters 0:00 Why Facts Make People Believe You Less 2:35 The Real Reason Arguments Feel Like Personal Attacks 3:26 The One Question That Defuses Any Disagreement 4:09 What Jeremy Clarkson Gets Right 6:13 Why You Only Listen to People Like You 8:51 A Psychologist's Dream Messenger: Joe Rogan 9:49 The Two Groups Who Care Least About Climate 10:50 Why You Need 9 Good Stories for Every Bad One 14:49 The Solar Boom That Could Power the Entire Planet 18:11 Why Systems Thinking Kills Polarisation 22:07 The Pizza That Explains Why Your 2% Matters 24:11 How One Norwegian Tax Made Your EV Cheaper 27:35 Why You're Not as Powerless as You Feel 30:10 The Two Trends That Could Undo Everything 34:32 The 5 Turnarounds We Actually Need 37:08 Why Things Get Worse Before They Get Better 42:02 "I Fell Through the Floor When Trump Won Again" 42:45 The Black Swan That Changes Everything 46:05 The Hidden Link Between Inequality and Climate 53:16 Is AI a Confirmation Bias Machine? 57:38 How AI Could Quietly Make Us More Unequal 58:08 The Surprising Ways AI Could Save Us 1:05:37 What One Person Can Actually Do About AI 1:07:54 The 4 Roles You Didn't Know You Had 1:10:03 Why Climate and Privacy Break Your Brain the Same Way 1:12:00 The Data Trap You're Walking Into 1:15:05 Why We Can't See Inside AI 1:16:05 Paying Indigenous Tribes to Protect Jaguars 1:19:16 The Questions Per Is Sick of Being Asked 1:21:01 Why 35 Years of Sustainability Failed

Stuart Goldsmith is a stand-up comedian with 20 years of experience who's spent the last five years doing something almost no other comic attempts: making audiences laugh about the climate crisis. Professor Lauren Feldman teaches Media and Climate Change at Rutgers University, where her students regularly bring in clips of Stuart's work to dissect in class. She's the co-author of A Comedian and an Activist Walk into a Bar: The Serious Role of Comedy in Social Justice, and her research unpacks why comedy is one of the most powerful tools we have for breaking through climate denial, fear, and apathy. This conversation explores why it's so hard to make people laugh about something that genuinely terrifies you, why comedy works when facts and fear don't, and why the brand of climate action is so catastrophically bad that we desperately need comedians to fix it. We talk about the psychology of counter-arguing, why charged information shuts down the prefrontal cortex, and how comedy creates a kind of social lubricant that lets unpalatable truths slip past our defenses. Stuart explains why he had to convince himself not to cry on stage, why his climate confessions format helps people admit their hypocrisy without shame, and why he's trying to write the perfect joke about how activists are the only professionals not allowed to fly. Lauren shares research showing that comedy increases engagement, makes messages more memorable, and helps people feel less alone in their climate anxiety. We also talk about why partisan comedy backfires with skeptical audiences, why the tabloid press treated Britain's hottest May on record like a beach party, and why Stuart believes the more you learn about climate change, the less paralyzed you feel. —— Find Stuart's work and UK tour dates at stuartgoldsmith.com Find Lauren's book A Comedian and an Activist Walk into a Bar on Amazon and University of California Press Subscribe to the Climate Unf*cked podcast at https://climateunfucked.substack.com/ And connect with me on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-coop/ —— Chapters 00:00 Lauren studies Stuart's work 01:53 Is it odd to make people laugh about something that scares you? 04:18 What emotion should comedy target? 05:59 Comedy as a social lubricant 08:23 Why learning more makes you less scared 11:40 The brand of climate is terrible 13:44 Lauren's research: nonpartisan vs partisan comedy 17:39 Does comedy break down barriers better than other mediums? 20:11 How comedy reduces counter-arguing 23:43 Jokes as compressed files 24:38 The hypocrisy bit: flying to a climate conference 26:27 Do you lean into virtue signalling or stay away? 29:02 Climate confessions and why they work 33:05 Does shaming change behaviour? 35:44 Disrupting the doomism narrative 39:33 Does it work differently online? 45:16 The heatwave and making the invisible visible 48:48 Arthur's Seat caught fire: complexity in comedy 50:16 Talking about effects vs causes 51:34 The Joint Intelligence Committee report on biodiversity 54:52 Your phones are fine, everyone else's have slave minerals 56:17 If you had a billboard, what would it say? 1:03:09 The joke Stuart wishes he could write 1:06:51 Personal action as background work, not the solution 1:09:58 Where to find Stuart and Lauren's work