Episode 894: Rod Gardner, Drug Addiction (Lost Dental Practice, Excommunicated, Prison), New Book “Second Chance Again”

My friends, Jeff McLean (same-sex marriage, nationally known performer, vocal coach, author), Michael McLean (famous LDS songwriter, composer, playwright) and Jeff’s therapist Dr. Brad Reedy (co-owner and clinical director of Evoke Therapy) join us to talk about their new book: “Stay in the Room: How a Gay Son and A Mormon Father Found Themselves and Each Other” In the podcast, they talk about how “Stay in the Room” tells the true story of a boy raised in Heber City, Utah, in the shadow of Mormonism and the rising AIDS crisis of the 1980s. The son of Michael McLean-Mormonism's answer to Billy Joel, Jeff sang his father's songs on stages nationwide. But behind the curtain, he struggled to reconcile his faith with his identity. After serving a Mormon mission, entering a brief marriage to his husband, and battling an addiction to crystal meth, Jeff finally found solid ground-and the courage to come home. But before healing could begin, he had to confront the two people he feared had lost him for good: his parents. Told through three voices, “Stay in the Room” is a moving, multi-perspective memoir. Jeff shares how he discovered a life where he could be fully himself and still feel the love of God. Michael recounts how the Spirit led him to stay present through his son's pain, refusing to let go. And therapist Dr. Brad Reedy offers powerful insight for families navigating the tension between faith, identity, and unconditional love. This is one of the best episodes we’ve ever recorded.. Please listen and share this episode and buy their book. Great insights on how to love and support people we love in our lives. Thank you Jeff, Michael, and Brad for being on the podcast. Links: Stay in the Room Book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1969935057

My friend Kelsey Well (who was on Episode 815) joins us to update her story. Kelsey (former EFY counselor and seminary teacher, active Latter-day Saint)—who broke off an engagement to a man realizing it wasn’t right which she talked about in her prior episode—talks about falling in love with Christina and their upcoming marriage. Kelsey also shares their desire to remain active members of their ward. In this episode Kelsey talks about: Her relationship with God and the Church What her relationship with her fiancé has shaped the way she sees faith, love, and her future. Navigating the pressure she sometimes feels from either side to “pick a line”—either leave the Church or deny part of herself How being an active LGBTQ Latter-day Saint looks like. What she wishes church members better understood about LGBTQ people who choose to stay active in the Church. What she says to someone who feels they have to choose between being loved by God and being fully themselves. Kelsey talks about how they plan to stay connect to the Temple that they love. Once married—and no longer having recommends—they talk about to being in the temple waiting room and doing family history. Thank you Kelsey for your courage to move forward in the path that you feel is right for you. I honor your personal revelation, will walk with you, and leave judgement to our Savior as His perfect understanding. I hope and pray you and Christina are warmly received in your ward—and you feel a deep sense of belonging as you worship. Links: Instagram: @kelswayan Episode 815: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-815-kelsey-wells-mid-20s-child-of-god-gay/id1347971725?i=1000698209691 Email: [email protected]

In one of our bravest, raw, and most vulnerable episodes, my friend Rod Gardner (married father of 5, lives in Northern Utah, dentist, age 60) shares his story/new book called “Second Change Again: A Dentist’s Journey from Professional Success to Prison, Addiction, and Ultimate Redemption”. Rod shares how drugs became a coping mechanism to deal/escape with the anxiety/scrupulosity he experiences as a teenager. He talks about putting this all behind him for his mission and the first part of his marriage—and then how the cycle came back to escape/deal with the stress of dental school. Rod talks about how that cycle repeated itself—getting worse and worse—until almost all hope was lost. Rod talks about kneeling in prayer in the 5-person jail cell—at the end of his rope—and how that was the beginning of hope/peace which led to sustained recovery (back with his wife Jill, family, regained his dental license and practice, rebaptized). I will never forget Rod talking about praying in the jail cell (and the inmates that ended up joining him). Rod concludes the podcast talking about his love and support for his queer son Kaden and his partner—the first time they came to the home—and his how his heart was full of love, a big hug, and support for both of them. Rod talks about his mighty change of heart from his earlier years to where is his now to love all of God’s children. Super powerful podcast. I encourage everyone to listen/share this episode and read Rod’s book. If you are in a tough spot—feeling alone and losing hope—please listen and share Rod’s podcast/book. Thank you Rod for your courage to share your story. You give all of us more hope and help us better understand God’s love for each of us. You are a good man. Links: Rod’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rod.gardner.509 Rod’s IG: @ rodneyg21 Rod’s E-mail: [email protected]

My friend Wilson Privado (BYU Master’s Degree in school psychology, BYU-Idaho undergrad, RM Salt Lake City Mission, Queer, Age 29) joins us to share his story. Wilson talks about pushing down his same-sex attraction before his mission, during his mission and after his mission—and trying to make it work with a girl. Wilson eventually concluded—as he couldn’t make it work with a woman—“no happy ending for me” with led to sadness and depression. Wilson talks about a powerful experience in the Temple seeing a rainbow on his hand—and the personal revelation that his Heavenly Parents love him including his queer identity—and how that brought him so much peace and removed shame. Wilson then talks about “teach me with I need to know about myself” and how having “the test isn’t having same-sex attraction, but will you stay with the Savior”. Wilson talks about the UVU LGBTQ Institute class and associated activities (around 100) and how helpful that is to Wilson to feel belonging, support, and staying close to Jesus. Wilson concludes with a personal message to closeted LGBTQ youth. Thank you Wilson for being on the podcast. You are a good man—with many gifts to life and help others. I encourage everyone to listen and share this episode. Links: Instagram @wilsonprvado

My friend Greg Prince (writer, scientist, businessman, philanthropist—see bio at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Prince) joins us to talk about his book “Gay Rights and the Mormon Church: Intended Actions, Unintended Consequences” released in 2019. In this episode, Greg talks the legal efforts of the Church to stop same-sex marriage starting in Hawaii (1990), Proposition 22 (2000) and Proposition 8 (2008) in California, and other efforts—and the “Unintended Consequences” along the way. Greg takes us behind the screens to understand the Church role in and arguments against same-sex marriage—arguments that end up not being empirically defendable. Stung and surprised by the backlash against the Church for its role in Proposition 8, Greg shares the stories of reconciliation between both groups—and how that led to the Church’s support for LGBTQ+ non-discrimination protections in Utah regarding housing and employment (SB296 in 2015). Greg talks about the Church support in 2023 for the Respect for Marriage Act—sending a General Authority Seventy for the signing of the bill at the White House. I believe it is important to understand the church’s efforts against same sex marriage—and its ultimate support 32 years later for the Respect for Marriage Act. It helps me understand the needless pain for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and their families largely driven by the culture and fearmongering of the day—and to also open our hearts and minds to future efforts to better support them. It also causes me to consider targeted groups today—like our LDS transgender friends—and not wanting to fall in the same pattern. Thank you Greg for being on the podcast and all your efforts to bring more understanding and support for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and their families. Links: Greg’s Book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08P7Q8QZB Church’s support for Respect for Marriage Act: https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders/2022/12/13/23508214/church-releases-statement-amended-u-s-respect-for-marriage-act-signing/

My friend Amy Thelin (who grew up in Virginia, served in Tahiti Papeete Mission, taught at the Missionary Training Center, and graduated from Brigham Young University) joins us to share her story. Amy reflects on the deeply spiritual experiences that led her to become active in the Church and serve a mission, motivated by her desire to help others feel the love of Christ. Amy also talks about returning home from her mission, transferring to BYU, earning a degree in Human Development, and later teaching at the MTC. She then shares what it was like to finally “take her sexuality off the shelf” and begin honestly addressing it after years of keeping herself busy to avoid it. Through prayer, scripture study, temple attendance, and personal revelation, Amy came to feel peace about her path forward—including the feeling that “dating girls is good for you.” She talks about falling in love with Melanie and the excitement surrounding their upcoming wedding in June 2026. Amy also discusses navigating these experiences while attending BYU, including both meaningful and difficult moments, as well as the grief she feels in not being able to fully participate in the Church. Amy and Melanie share their hope of finding ward leaders and church communities where they can feel loved, accepted, spiritually safe, and connected to Jesus Christ—a simple hope to “just be OK to be here.” Thank you, Amy, for being on the podcast and for the many lives you have blessed and will continue to bless. I hope for better days ahead for queer members of the Church—days where they can feel loved, accepted, needed, and valued. You are awesome, and you have a beautiful life ahead of you. Links:

My friend Dilyn Eyerly (student at Utah Valley University, age 31, RM, active LDS) joins us to share her story. Dilyn talks about growing up and realizing she was not straight and navigating that with herself, her family and the Church. Dilyn talks about her decision to serve a mission and the suicidal ideation she dealt with and how she was able to finish her mission. Dilyn talks about “Godly Anger” and coming out “fine I’m Bi”—and how coming out (“letting people in”) helped her and her journey with the Church. Dilyn talks about not going to Church but attending the UVU LGBTQ Institute class—and how that class (and all the supportive Institute Teachers)—eventually created a desire to go back to Church and the Temple—including telling her Bishop and Stake President “I’m a Bisexual Queer Woman and I’m done hiding, especially at Church.” Thank you Dilyn for your courage to come on the podcast and share your story. You are super brave and courageous. I learned so much from you story on how to better love and support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints. You helpful me further realize that fulling owning one’s identity and having supportive people in one’s life can be the road back to the Church. You are awesome. And I wish the UVU LGBTQ Institute class could scale church-wide so more could have the love, understanding, help connecting to God/Jesus, support that are in the class. Thank you for all the UVU Institute teachers who are supporting queer Latter-day Saints. Links: Dilyn’s Instagram: @dilyndidwhat

My friend Chad Call (late 30s, gay, former business/event executive, bridge builder) joins us to share his story. Chad talks about growing up in Kaysville Utah, serving a mission, being active in his YSA Ward, stepping away from the Church, coming out as gay and making his way forward. Chad talks about his supportive parents (Lisa and Jeff—Jeff was my missionary companion in England) and all they are doing to keep their family together including being on the front row of the Utah Pride Parade. This is a beautiful family love story—and an example on how to keep family relationship strong and healthy—even with people on different paths and different beliefs. Chad then talks about the Utah Pride Center—what the organization does—and how we can support them. Chad helped me better understand all the good that Utah Pride Center has done in our community and continued need role they provide. Please consider donating to Utah Pride Center (see show notes) and/or attending Utah Pride on June 6-7, 2026. Thank you Chad for being on the podcast. You are a good man and doing life-saving work in our community. Links: Utah Pride Donation: https://utahpridecenter.org/donate

Our guest today is Amanda Wilkinson — speaker, author, leadership consultant, and mother of five — joining us to talk about her new book "Walking with Grace," a mother-daughter collection that brings her daughter Gracelyn to life through her own words, art, music, and soul. Gracelyn passed away at age 20 on August 8, 2024. Amanda has also lost a son, Bennett. The book weaves a beautiful story of Grace through journal entries, original lyrics, and artwork. QR codes throughout the book also link to videos and music of Grace. In this episode, Amanda shares the life and goodness of Grace — all she served through years of significant health challenges — and some of the lessons learned along the way. If you are dealing with grief — or want to better understand and support others — please buy, read, and share Amanda and Grace's book. It will give you more tools and insights into the Atonement of Jesus Christ to find hope and peace in your life and help others. This is one of the most powerful podcasts we've done on this subject. Thank you Amanda for being on the podcast. I learned so much from you. I’m so sorry Grace and Bennett are gone. I’m grateful for your work to give others hope. You are making a huge difference in our world. You are awesome. Links: Amazon: https://a.co/d/0gDcLhBk Amanda’s website: https://amandawilkinsonspeaks.com/ Resources from Grace: BYUtv interview (start at 8:32): https://www.dev-byutv.org/e9313bb2-69ee-4174-b6bf-acbd8a97128e/promptings?player-open=true&content-id=e9313bb2-69ee-4174-b6bf-acbd8a97128e Strive to Be reel: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DCjp4YFRtNt/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Gracelyn's recorded music: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gracelyn+wilkinson

My friend Javier “VJ” Aguilar (RM, from Mexico/Texas, Age 25, Current BYU Student) joins us to share his story. Javier talks about his journey to understand his sexual orientation and come out to family in a culture that is very different from the United States. Javier talks about the difficult conversations with his parents raised in a culture where this is compared to additions that can be “cured”. Javier—who has grace and loves his parents—talks about his journey to accept/love himself, find hope during deep depression, and find support. Once Javier removed the shame and accepted himself, he talks about his desire to help others—from a deep place of love. He talks about leading the Rexburg Pride parade and also start a podcast. The podcast focus is queer LDS stories where English is a second language. Javier talks about their work to name the podcast—finally ending up with “One More Seat at the Table”. Love this name! Please listen/share this podcast and connect with Javier’s podcast (see show notes). Thank you Javier to being on the podcast. You are brave and your work (along with your friends) is so needed in our community. Links: Javier’s Instagram: @vj_ag00 Podcast on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/un-lugar-m%C3%A1s-en-la-mesa/id1821754247 Podcast on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/25J076HVloGCw7PADv10v5?si=DEm_xgz7SNq2V1zMXpFV4w