70: Emerging and Deprecated Technology with Robert Solomon
How do fire and life safety professionals tackle challenges like sustainability, energy storage systems, and technology becoming obsolete? These topics and more are discussed in episode 70 of Fire Code Tech. Robert Solomon P.E. shares tremendous insight from his 30+ years at NFPA and 40 years in fire protection. 00:07.11 firecodetech Well Robert thank you for coming on the fire code tech podcast we're happy to have you today. 00:13.10 robert solomon Well thank you very much for having me I appreciate the opportunity to talk with you. 00:18.15 firecodetech Awesome! So how I usually get these things started to give the listeners some context and also for my own listening pleasure is usually asking about how you found fire and life safety How you found the field. 00:32.93 robert solomon So where I grew up. Um I grew up in a rural area in Western Pennsylvania and I think I was like maybe like a lot of little kids right? The fire truckcks you know pure actually going by. Would you know there's some level of excitement or you'd go to the. Annual ah fire department carnival in the local towns or whatever that were run by the fire departments and I I kind of got an interest I think from that you know childhood ah piece or kind of experience. When I was 15 I actually learned about the small town that I lived near they actually had a junior volunteer fire department program and I found out about that and um I joined that literally when I was fifteen years old so at 15 right? You can you can like wash equipment and fire trucks. You know you're not going to go to fires or car accidents or anything but I immediately kind of liked the firefighting aspect. A while later maybe a year later than two of the members who were getting their far science degrees at a community college. They came to the muddy night meeting and they have this photocoppied piece of paper about this fire protection engineering program at University Of Maryland I thought like. 01:54.96 robert solomon Sounds interesting. What what exactly does this mean and what is it so I made a trip to University Of Maryland ah that year I was in tenth grade then um I met Dr Brian Wright who is one of the more famous folks from Oklahoma. And he talked about the program and in I think in tenth grade he in tenth grade I think I was 99% sure I wanted to figure out how I could go to University Of Maryland to to go through that program. So um I was just blessed to kind of. Have all these things that kind of came together and that were kind of connected. Um I liked the farfighting part but I always had in the back my mind I wanted to be an engineer. My father was an engineer and ah, that's kind of how how it all started for me when I was when I was fifteen years old so and been been doing it ever since which is a long time for by age. So yeah. 02:48.33 firecodetech That's awesome. That's interesting to hear that seems like a common thread of involvement with the fire service and then ah, a proclivity for math and science or a family member that is related to engineering So that's good to hear. Well. 03:00.00 robert solomon Um, yeah, and for sure. 03:04.26 firecodetech Ah, so for a bit more of context. Um, would you mind explaining a couple more of the roles that you've held in during your career. 03:13.75 robert solomon Sure so the first kind of job I had in the fire protection engineering world. It was a summer intern job with the department of veterans affairs. It was the veterans administration back then but I had a summer internship in Washington Dc at the v a central office. And of course the e a does hospitals and nursing homes. So I learned a lot about the nfk life safety code and the fire safety evaluation system um is a part of that summer job working with the really you know smart fpes that were there. The supervisor that headed up that group bill Brooks. Um, one of the other things he did for me that summer is he arranged for me to go visit with fire protection engineers and other federal agencies Army Corps of Engineers Naval Sea systems command navfac all these other federal agencies department of transportation. And I got a chance to see what they did in this Fpe Role so I really didn't realize at the time like how much how much I was to absorb from kind of having that opportunity to spend a couple hours with them so that was kind of my first intern job and. 04:32.84 robert solomon There go the allergies. Ah, and then that was you know between junior and senior years and then I had kind of gravitated towards this idea of working for naval facilities engineering command nav fact that was my first job then after graduation in 1982 I was at the southern division down in Charleston South Carolina and I think what appealed to me about that is is when you work on military projects and and you sounds like you're familiar with this the the military builds everything and sometimes you only build 1 or 2 of those things ever in the history of. Of of building construction. So I had ah four great years working at at navfa down in ah Charleston again. Um the supervisor of that was a gentleman named Dennis Davis I worked with other ah great fpes Les Engels Jim Crawford and and and these were people that really helped morph me and guide me and it's like I always said to people in college you get your degree and then you get your education when you get your first real job so they really taught me kind of that connection between the theory and what maybe you learned in school and then how that kind of applies to. Real world building design and construction. so so I said I had four four great years at navfac and I kind of learned that I learned how to travel I'd never been an airplane till I was 21 years old then all of a sudden I'm on an airplane every other week going to. 06:02.51 robert solomon You know somewhere on a project in Florida or Texas or New Mexico um but again just a fascinating job. You know I really liked everything about that. Definitely yeah yeah, yeah. 06:14.49 firecodetech And that's awesome. Yeah I love that complexity piece of the the dod and you know that's it's very alluring for multiple disciplines of engineer because of just the type of systems and the type of work I think for engineers I. 06:21.10 robert solomon The. 06:33.22 firecodetech Think it takes a different breed of architect when you get into a lot of military work. But for engineers it seems if you like the detail and you like the complexity that it's very compelling So that's cool to hear about that origin story. So. 06:44.81 robert solomon Right? And yeah, yeah, yeah for sure. Yeah, so says I had I had that period that time down at navfac and then in ah, 1986 I knew there were some openings at Npa and I think I'd mentioned right when I was in the was in the fire department back in Pennsylvania when I was 15 or 16 they had they this set of these books and I didn't know what they were was this nfpa thing and um I remember looking at them when I'm 16 like what what on earth are these things you know and. What is this nfpa and and one of the things I didn't mention is I got a student membership in nfpa when I was 17 so that you learn about it. You know going through the program at University Of Maryland and it was always in the back of my mind that sounds like a pretty interesting place to maybe work. So. And 86 I knew there were some ah openings up there and I you know back then you had to write a letter and I wrote the letter. It's like here's my resume and they actually contacted me to come up for an interview I thought like oh oh gosh you know it was like ah okay, what I'm Boston don't know anything about Boston. It's this big city I'm not used to big cities. Came up interview went well I was offered a position and so I went to I left of naffac and went to work at Nfpa back in July of 87 and at the time my goal was like I want to work here for four or five years to learn about how these codes are developed and made. 08:11.87 robert solomon And I wanted to go I figured I I go do something else I go work for a consultant or maybe go back to some federal agency but the the opportunities that I got at nfpa were were nonstop. Um, you know it's like anything sometimes it falls in your lap. Sometimes you have to go looking for it sometimes sometimes you have to kind of create the opportunity and thirty forty years later it's like oh I've had a good run here. It's time for me to go to to something else. So my my 5 year plan all of a sudden morphed into a a 34 year plan and. Like I said it was a it. It still is. It's ah it's a privilege to work at Nfpa. It is a it's a great organization. Um I I never I never had I was never bored there. There was always something new around the corner and. Things I worked on whether you know I think what I enjoyed the most obviously is working directly with the technical committees but I was involved in some of the you know big fire investigation programs and report writing um was always usually involved on you know some. National international catastrophe right? I was managing the group um that usually would have involvement with that whether it was the far code or the building code or the life safety code aspect but it it was just it was just like it. 09:38.73 robert solomon It it. It was just an unbelievable experience the whole time I was there I was working you know some of the people your age I don't know if you know names like Chet Shermer or the actual Rolf Jensen um you know these are the people that really I think really kind of put our profession on the map put fire protection engineering on the Map. And I would be sitting in meetings with these guys and they'd be asking me my opinion I'm like you know I don't I guess the word would be almost like Starstruck initially, it's like you're asking me what I think and um so it it was just it was just like it was. It. It was just an unbelievable experience the the whole time I was there. But I said you know whether it was the the new committee projects. Um the fire investigation work. The research work. Um, you know, ah it was all of those things. Just really. Ah, it gave me opportunities I never thought in 1000000 years I would have so like it was you know to to work somewhere for 34 Years that's pretty unusual now. But I think you know I'm in the generation that that was maybe a little bit more common than it is today. So my nfpa time was was just It was awesome is the only way I could describe it. 10:53.25 firecodetech That's incredible that sounds so cool to be in that era of just some of the imminent forces now in the industry just you know come into fruition. That's really cool to hear about and lots of good nuggets in there that I. 11:00.33 robert solomon Um. 11:01.88 robert solomon Move. 11:11.16 firecodetech Im sure we could spend ah a whole conversation on but 1 that strikes me as one I wanted to ask you about is that fire investigations piece I know that as fire and life safety professionals. You know, a lot of what we do is based on. Um. 11:13.53 robert solomon Ah, answer sure. 11:29.77 firecodetech Retroactively looking at how things went wrong and trying to correct those in the code cycles. But how does that experience at Nfba kind of color your context for how you look at design. Um, I know that's kind of a ah broad question. But um, I'd like to hear your answer on that. 11:51.42 robert solomon Yeah, so so I think I think I think there's 2 things that influence the way I look at application of codes to building design and one is you know I was only the volunteer fire service for 7 years you know in between Pennsylvania and what I did not in Prince George's County Maryland so you know? Yeah I kind of know what a fire feels like um that was part of it and then when you're at some of these fire investigation scenes you know like I said I was at Dupont Plaza where 97 people died and you're you're walking through these areas where you know where the bodies were a couple of days prior. Um, or orridium plaza where we've got the 3 firefighter fatalities and it's just like you know how you know how how on earth do we do? We get to these places. So I think that those things kind of sear some you know memories or the way I'm going to approach things that you know in. And again in either 1 of those fires right? The the role of the Nfk investigation is to is not necessarily It's not necessarily focused on cause and origin ah someone else is going to determine that the nfk report is okay, regardless of how it started what what is it that allowed this fire event. To to get to the point it did it and that's where the code piece comes in so I think between my experience you even though it was short lived in the volunteer fire service and then on the fire investigations to see the actual impacts. It's like you know, look there there there. There are no shortcuts in this business right. 13:25.97 robert solomon Oftentimes remember we do have these things or we do have these types of fires there. There is a shortcut or in other cases. It's simply the ongoing inspection testing and maintenance um is not is not followed through right? So it kind of falls on the building owner. 13:44.23 robert solomon So The codes can make that foolproof to an extent but right we still have that the human element that can you know that that kind of comes into play and you know I think especially in the assembly occupancies right? That's that that's that tough area because you do have to rely on. Folks like crowd managers and even like some of the safety or usher staff to help you with that because no matter what you put in the code people are going to figure out a way to defeat it. We. We just had 1 came in on the weekend about about. About the height height height of a guardrail and design of a guardrail at an assembly facility and you know the inspector said when somebody could climb on that and climbing that and it's like of course they can right? They can you know people people can always figure out how to how to climb over those things right? so. That that's kind of where that that human element comes in and I think that's the that's other piece I try to look at like you know the office building versus residential versus the assembly and I I I Keep those fairly compartmented I think in terms of how I'm going to look at. How to apply the life safety code or the ibc to those to those occupancies and to you know to make sure we we have. We have good explanations when somebody is questioning why they have to do it or how they have to do it so that you know that? ah all that stuff sits in the back here somewhere at it. 15:12.22 robert solomon You know I can I can pull it out when I need it. So. 15:15.38 firecodetech Yeah I think that is the difficult part and the mark of you know, somebody who can speak with confidence about a lot of fire and life safety is that nuance and the explaining of the justification. Um, because you know like you're saying. 15:22.76 robert solomon Be. I. 15:32.84 firecodetech Ah, you're you're going to get pushback in your career from ah ah, code official or so or somebody and you need to understand that direction or why that piece of code is there and what is a reasonable bound for the kind of life safety that we're Providing. Ah, in the context of prescriptive code. So you you have to have that understanding or else you're going to get thrown for a loop. It's guaranteed. Um. 15:52.94 robert solomon Yeah. 15:59.29 robert solomon Yeah, yeah for sure for sure and I was just say that when what I left out ofpa you know where I am now at Sls Consulting you know that that's that's part of that's part of my role there right? You know we we get we get a situation and. Maybe we're trying to. We're doing a performance-based design or're looking at a potential code equivalency or or we got somebody questioning. You know what? whys have to be done that way and probably not probably 9 times out of 10 I can I can tell them why because I guess it shows I'm old but like. I was probably there when the committee made the change or I worked with that committee long enough that I knew the history of of why that thing was in the code since 1930 or 1940 or whatever. So um, you know that's that's the other piece I think that I can bring is there still is some some importance to know. To know the historical perspective about about how the requirement got there is it based on a research report is it based on a fire is it based on some other you know tragic event or tragedy or or something else that went wrong. So those are you know that's that's one of the. Ah things I help my colleagues with now at a ls as well. So. 17:10.86 firecodetech Yeah, and that's a great question something I had planned to ask you later in the interview but this seems like a good interjection point is you know if and there might be no good answer to this other than you need just more experience and more time in the code cycles. But how. Does somebody who's trying to like absorb as much of this intent and subtext as Possible. Do you have any piece of advice for a young professional or somebody who's trying to gain. Ah, Expertise or proficiency and some piece of some code or standard you know are do you have any tips for somebody in that kind of situation. 17:57.60 robert solomon Yeah, yeah, yes I think I think that the two things I try to encourage people to do I I do I teach this one undergrad class on a wpi. It's only offered once a year and it's what I tell the students this. But maybe an old-timers expression but you know that the class is an introduction to fire protection engineering and it's it's that milew wide inch deep right? They get hit with everything from Ibc Nfk one a 1 sprinklers standpipes fire alarm systems and they they get ah that exposure. But one of the things I tell them one is you know is wherever they end up working is is to make sure that they they can identify a good mentor right? and I think that the mentorship is something that organizations are paying more attention to right? We we pay attention to that and s I'll ask with the with the new. Ah, students the new employees the new graduates nfpa I think did a very good job with that. So finding a good mentor is is important to to kind of shadow them and you know and and follow them and and to understand right. You know I've been doing this for forty plus years and I you know I still don't know everything right I learned I learned stuff from from the 25 year olds I work with so so so that that learning thing never stops. So so one is to get a good mentor I think in terms of if if they can. 19:26.99 robert solomon Do it and they can carve out the time and they'll get support from their organization or from their company is to look at the professional development programs offered by nfpa right? The nfpa programs give you give you a great a great ah a great introduction those concepts right like the life safety code seminar or the sprinkler seminar or the fire alarm seminar those are going to give you kind of the the jumping off point and then then you kind of go to that you know that next level then then you go look at the courses. Maybe that. American Fire Sprinkler Association or national fire sprinkler association. The courses they offer on sprinkler design stamp pipe design on on fire pump design and understanding on the inspection testing and maintenance protocols and and then you go to? Ah, ah. Automatic fire alarm association a faa for their courses on fire alarm design again. Which really you know those organizations now I'll take you to that next level to those deep dives. So so those are those are kind of the ah the roots I think I think those are some. Places I would I would point folks to that are just getting just getting involved in the business. 20:40.68 firecodetech Yeah that's a great point finding a mentor finding a community and then you know, understanding your code and standard base with nfpa and some of those online educational courses. You know I taking a couple of those I definitely. Super recommend I took ah several for 13 and 72 they were really really high quality I've never seen a course like that in the industry that even comes close and then ah yeah, look going drilling down to the technology specificc. 21:12.66 robert solomon Great. 21:18.73 firecodetech Ah, aaa and nfsa and a Fsa. Um, if you need more explicit criteria and you know they have books they have technical guides and things so that's great tips Robert I appreciate that? um. 21:30.85 robert solomon Yeah, okay, good. 21:38.43 firecodetech Ah, wanted to kind of go back to that design experience. You mentioned a little bit and you know it could be at your role now for Sls or during your time at nfpa. But what is an ah example of a project that you're involved in that you're. 21:40.13 robert solomon Just. 21:57.83 firecodetech Um, proud of or that kind of gives listeners an idea of occupancy wise or technology wise something that has been a focus for you. 22:07.12 robert solomon Yeah, so so I think I think the the one that um, still stands out for me personally. Um when I was at Nfpa this is the change that came into the life safety code in the 2012 edition around this notion of what's referred to as culture change and I remember in early 2008? Um I I headed up the ah nfk building and life safety group for a long time. And I was contacted by this organization called the pioneer network and they said oh we're having this conference in April and we're looking for somebody to come to speak about this nfk life safety code. That all of the hospitals and nursing homes are required to comply with because of the federal regulations I'm like oh yeah, you know I can do that I said you know it was in Dc and I said I'll bring the the washington dcrep you know you know you know? Ah I'll co-present with her. And I said you know I said you know can you send me information a bit more about what you're looking for and what your organization is doing and um I get I get like this white paper and I'm looking at it I'm going like I'm I'm reading. Ah what you you don't put kitchens. 23:25.16 robert solomon Community kitchens in a nursing home you you would put fireplaces in a nursing home. Ah, they they have all this stuff and it was this group that had been working on this for 10 years and what was stopping them was the life safety code. 23:39.95 robert solomon So my initial reaction is like this is like crazy What do you mean? this is this makes absolutely no sense. So um, so i' got through the white paper then ah you know a couple months later we're we're at the ah like a three day conference I think in Dc and I'm I'm talking to all these advocates for this. And these people were super passionate and by the time I left that conference I'm thinking like we have to figure out how we can change the life safety code to allow these things to happen. Um, and and I I kind of look back. You know some of the um. There were 1 or 2 nursing home fires I hadipheral involvement in and you know in the us we used to design nursing homes almost slightly better than we designed a prison right? Double loaded corridors with concrete block walls and um, you know, just like a dull drab place for people to you know. Spend their last months or years or whatever living. So this whole culture change initiative was to make this more into a home like environment and if you're going to call it a nursing home then you need to figure out how to you know how to how to how to make that design fit a little bit better. So the other part of me thought boy you know in 30 or 40 years if I haven't been a nursing home I want to be in one of these like really cool looking. Nice comfortable places rather than what I envision nursing homes typically being so so we had. 25:09.39 robert solomon Worked with the pioneer network and then we worked with ah um, with benefactor from the rothschild foundation and those 2 organizations took the lead. They put some research money into nfpa and the research foundation. To help us co-sponsor we did two health care summits around this concept around this notion to introduce it. Um, there was buying immediately from the technical committee on health care occupancies in the life safety code. And everybody went to work probably late 2008 Eight two thousand early 2009 to get those changes in the twenty twelve code and that is one of the main reasons that Cms moved to adopt the 2012 code kind of as quickly as they did it still takes time. But. As quickly as they did because the code now introduced these culture change initiatives. So when I look back on things I did at Fpa that that one I think that one was interesting because one it it opened my mind to look at things differently to look at the nursing home environment differently? um. It's a positive change for society and I think it's one of those code changes. It wasn't done because of a tragedy or a fire. It was a proactive thing and I think that's one of the things that I've I've seen nfpa and I've seen Icc ah you know I think I think doing more changes like that being more. 26:36.89 robert solomon Proactive to make adjustments to what society wants rather than oh now we had this fire. We had this earthquake. We have to go make a change. So I think the code organizations are much better and that that for me is I think the one the 1 thing at nfpa that um I think I'm still most proud of and. I was just glad to see how that all worked out you know and and now you know this is a this is a standard design. No 1 questions about the community kitchen in the nursing home or the fireplace or the the more bright open areas. Um, so that that's that's the one that. That that sticks with me the most I think of of everything I've done. Okay. 27:18.19 firecodetech That's awesome. Cool to see the the fire and life safety dovetail with improving life quality for people and making positive change and I think that that is a big part of the reason why a lot of people love fire and life safety is there. 27:27.80 robert solomon In your. 27:35.84 firecodetech Ah, the social implications of it and the protections and you know making a difference in your community. So that's really cool to hear about that robert. 27:44.46 robert solomon Yeah, yeah, and as I saying now you know at Sls um, we you know one of the things that we are. We're starting to get asked about you know are some of these alternative materials around sustainability and you know debt 0 energy right? Ah so we have we have the obviously the mass timber stuff that. Ah, groups like Icc and the fire protection research foundation did all that work all that effort over about a 4 year period to get those changes in the 2021 edition of the ibc. Um, that's you know, partly being pushed by sustainability initiatives. But. Now we we also have like other materials coming on the market and one of the things that we we look at at Sls is we have a project right now where it's a um, it's it's an alternative material. That has very friendly environmental properties. It has it has a low carbon footprint. But it's not you know when I pick up the book right? Now. It's not in the book. So we got. We're figuring out you know what what? What are the steps. What's the pathway to get it in the book or maybe to at least get it. Um. 28:58.24 robert solomon Approved under some alternative means and methods initially and then and kind of see where it goes from there. So so that's other I think another role that's unique for for fps that people are coming up with new ideas. New technologies new concepts right? The whole energy storage system. Ah, is another one of those that do we need it? Yes, ah, can we do it safely? Yes, um, just always go perfectly. No, but it's it's like all this right? The the. Battery manufacturers are trying to figure out. You know what? what are the alternatives to Lithium Ion batteries what's a safer type battery that gives you the same efficiencies and the same outputs. So. It's this never ending swirl of advancements in technology which is you know you know which which I which I like right? it's. It's exciting. It keeps you engaged and it it keeps keeps me interested in the business. So. 29:55.78 firecodetech Yeah, definitely it always makes it interesting. That's one of the most alluring parts about the industry is the variety variety is a spice of life and fire and life safety has no end to the variety and complexity that you can dive into and yeah, that's a definitely. 30:09.79 robert solomon Um, great. 30:14.89 firecodetech Ah, from like a schooling it was in school I had no clue that you know there were fire protection engineers that specified in products and how to get a specific product fm approved or Ul listed or you know what that process looked like going through the different testing agencies and. 30:32.84 robert solomon P. 30:34.79 firecodetech Significant time and cost associated with that process and how if you don't have somebody who knows what they're doing that. It's just basically a black box and it's like hard to crack that code and so I mean I think it's It's really interesting as ah, just ah. 30:46.76 robert solomon Good. 30:53.77 firecodetech Way to do work. But yeah, that's a very cool process and another great topic you pressed on was Lithium Ion batteries and a man what a hot topic in the industry right now people trying to figure out how to protect them. You know they're everywhere so you know. 30:56.19 robert solomon And. 31:09.99 robert solomon C. 31:11.89 firecodetech What does that look like separation of battery arrays. Ah different protection technologies. Ah, that's a great topic. 31:21.73 robert solomon Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is and and I think you know that's one um I think we we brought some attention on that at nfk back in 2014 it was ironically it was it was a guy at my church and he was ah um, he lived in Massachusetts but he's working with this company. Ah, and um. Ah, in Seattle Washington he would like he would travel out there almost every week and you know having like coffee coffee time after church he's he's told me about this battery thing I'm like you know I'm like what what what is this so after about six months I said can you come in and do a lunch and learn for our technical staff on this so I had brad come in and he told us about it and like said that was twenty fourteen and we were just starting to hear a little bit more about this and then all of a sudden you know he's explaining like what the uses are and this is before this is really before the. You know technology really started to ramp up. So so as far back as 24 times I just like you know I wouldn' have done anything about ess until a couple years later had I not you know had this conversation with you know, 1 of my fellow church members. So it's just it's it's weird how some of these things kind of. Ah, kind of transpire but you know that that got Npa looking more closely at it. Some research worked and then creation of nf p Eight fifty five and you know everybody's paralleling with the requirements in nfpa one and the ifc and. 32:51.15 robert solomon You know, trying to figure out how all those pieces fit and something you hit on right? it's that um it's that that that dance right? between well here's what the code does. Well here's what the standard does. Well here's what the the ul or fm product standard does for the testing and. It is you know those pieces just don't those pieces just don't happen. There's a lot of lot of careful coordination. Um and cooperation between those organizations to you know to make sure everybody gets the right test protocols and procedures. So we can end up with you know. Good documents like nfpa eight fifty five or the requirements end up in the fire codes or the building codes or I heard last week I haven't verified it yet. Um, there's something in apparently in the Massachusetts stretch energy code provision that I think it takes effect july first. Ah, so someone told me that they thought they heard there's something in there about mandatory use of ess in certain types of buildings if you know if the local jurisdiction adopts the stretch code. So I have to do some homework on that to to verify that. But. But yeah, you're right? It's you know that the stuff is everywhere and there's ah, there's no end in sight. 34:08.85 firecodetech Yeah, another good point. Ah you know that emphasizes your statement of its everywhere is sustainability which you mentioned and how that is getting ever-increasing focus in fire and life safety which is pushing people to. You know, consider solar arrays and and battery storage for the ups for those solar arrays and so it kind of just feeds off of itself in this push forward and so it's interesting to one of the issues I wanted to. Focus on because I've seen it as a through line and your career is emerging technologies and kind of how do we look at them and address them as these things pop up or as Technologies die like we've seen recently with some of the foam products out there. Um, and the legislation kind of removing those technologies from the conversation or modifying them and having new products in their place. But ah yeah I think that's a great topic I'd love to hear from you about um how you see a like a framework for. Taking a look at how these things change. 35:27.60 robert solomon Yeah, so so I think I you know those are other examples I think of of changes driven by society. So my my first exposure to that is whenever the us epa and other. Ah. Their counterparts other countries started the phase out of the hallons. AhCfc gases back in the 1980 S so one of my former colleagues and nfpa casey grant um he he was he was he was. He was very much in the middle of that. Um, ah in his role at Nfpa. 36:00.74 robert solomon And that was kind of like you know here's this halon 13 ah one when I worked at nav fact you know and anything that was data or tracking or telementary or communications. There was a haon 13 or 1 system in it. Um I should know if it right? but you know. Be in those rooms where we would do the discharge tests right? So you know and I think back then like you know it was. You didn't even think twice about it. So so all of a sudden There's this Ah ah, there's this movement to get rid of it back in like I said I think that started in 1980 1991 maybe but 1989 that's kind of whenever I think that was here the Montreal protocol and like all the signatories said you know we're going to ban it by you know whatever date. So now of a sudden everybody like you said everybody's scrambling. We have this great agent. It's very effective. Um, it doesn't leave any residue. It doesn't leave a mess but it you know it destroys the ozone layer. So I you know I I went on a trip to China with some other nfpa folks and ul folks um to talk to their and their government agencies about. Alternatives to halon right? So we're talking about that before the replacement chemicals are there so we're talking about these early concepts you know not early like this like automatic sprinkler systems but early concepts like water mist. So. 37:28.32 robert solomon Shortly after that trip then npa starts down the road to develop nfpa seven fifty water mist is maybe ah, an alternative agent but then the the other producers were looking at alternative. Clean, agent gas extinguishing. Ah. Features or characteristics that that then was my foray into this like oh boy, you know there's other stuff we have to consider. Of course we're going to put the fire out but we also have to look at other implications you look at energy efficiency. So. You know now we're putting different materials on the facades of the buildings to manage you know, ah more efficient cooling in the summer months and more efficient heating in the winter months and oh yeah, by the way, there's you know, ah, an inch or two inches of some kind of poly material. Um, sandwiched between the Panels. So you know you see like okay, um, that's a societal response for energy stuff and then how do we safely get that material and then you see development initial development of the old standard. Ah the old uniform building code standard on this. Morphed into nfpa two eighty five so there's another example of of where of where those pieces really connect and I think now when you look at sustainability you know I think a lot of the focus is really going to be on the materials right? The the big dog right now it was the. 38:59.43 robert solomon Creation of the of the mass timber requirements in the code that allow us to go to I think 18 stories now for certain occupancies. Um, if you told me ten years ago we'd have code provisions allowed wood for ten stories I would have said yeah, no way next? ah. But it's it's that whole thing it's like okay, right your your initial fpe reacts is like it's what it burns. It's bad and it's like oh it's what it's heavy timber. Um you can it burn? Yes, but it has unique characteristics like the charring to create the insulation and and again I look back. My you know. Volunteer fire department days I said very rural area I remember going to barn fires and like you know the siding would be gone but those big you know 10 by 10 beams would they would just smolder for days and they were still structurally sound and so that was like my connection to like. Oh yeah, that stuff really is pretty durable when it comes to fire. So it's it's it's things like that. But my personal opinion as I started to say my proe opinion is it's going to really now be on the materialials. You know? Um, if I have I guess the literature I read right? You know to. Produce concrete. It's very high intensity and it's you know you know it's a c o 2 issue and things like that or production of steel or the supply chain like I can you know I can make the steel but you know now am am I bringing the steel from. 40:32.22 robert solomon Ah, foreign country. Well how much energy does that take and you know how does that affect supply chain. So I think a lot of effort's going to really be on alternative materials for building construction. You mentioned the pfas issue with with a triple f right same thing we have that and pretty much every. Type one Aircraft hanger in the us whether it's military or civilian or commercial hangar. But that's that's where american technology and an effort comes in the the manufacturers of the a triple Fc like ah, yeah, you know this I see where this is going my product won't be able to be sold after some period of time or states are going to regulate are going to regulate it out of use I better come up with an alternative so it it it puts that bonus or burden back on. Those manufacturers to come up with the next thing and they did right that you know they they came up with the ah the flooring free phone. So the where there's there. There's always a way to figure it out is is is what I've learned if anything over you know 40 years in this business. So. 41:44.37 firecodetech Oh yeah, definitely it's remarkable how fast that they've spun up those new foam solutions with even though they're remarkably different with their viscosities and how much they had to alter their. 41:55.47 robert solomon But. 42:00.18 firecodetech Inductors and all the associated equipment and still. It's like we have listed products coming out for those things. So it's It's pretty remarkable. How just it changes and people figure it out. Um. 42:10.80 robert solomon Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly yeah yeah, you know I mean a micro version of that it wasn't so much the environmental thing but if you recall and I got to say like couple years ago it's probably at least fifteen years ago now maybe 42:18.23 firecodetech This. 42:29.20 robert solomon 12 years um whenever we had the ban on antifreze and sprinkler systems right? You know Nfpa took a very you know hard stance on that and you know the um you know the committee kind of you know, kind of put use of antifreeze on the back shelf like you can't use it because of a couple of events that. 42:47.85 robert solomon Associates was made aware of so what happened you know the the manufacturers you know, figure out how to make an antifreeze that's not combustible even in a hundred percent concentrated form but you know so so you know there's a case where um. The antifreeze. Actually you know made the fire potentially worse and that's then hey you know the fire sprinkler system's purpose is to make the fire go away not to enhance it. But there's another one of those circumstances where you know where the manufacturers figured out a way to. Come up with a a non-combustible interfreze concentrate. 43:28.75 firecodetech Yeah I think that's a great example because ah, you know at the early part of my career we were I was working for a suppression contractor and we were ripping those systems out of places and then now I'm designing systems small systems for you know that. 43:35.85 robert solomon Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 43:46.24 firecodetech Spaces like little garages or attic spaces that those systems fit perfectly and now I'm getting to install those systems So that's a great point on how technology and manufacturing can find a way and that innovation piece is pretty cool. 44:01.80 robert solomon Yeah, definitely definitely. Yeah. 44:05.18 firecodetech So I Saw that recently that you were a part of a section in the nfpa handbook about smart technologies and how that um impacts or affects fire and life safety. I'd love to hear about that if you wouldn't mind speaking about it. 44:23.26 robert solomon Yeah, sure. So yeah, that's that's ah, that's a new chapter in the new edit of the handbook the twenty first edition of the handbook that came out recently. So my collaborat on that is gentleman named Ken Boyce from other writers laboratories uow and ah. i' bet ket over the years at the U Fire Council meetings so when I was on the council and then one of my last presentations at Nfpa was in November of 19 and 1919 of 2019 ah, where the the research foundation ran a 2 wo-day symposium on um, ah, kind of electrical data needs and I presented kind of looking at that from the perspective of of bias or the international standards organization. My last three or four years at Fpa I chaired the us tag for an Iso committee IsoTC268 which dealt with smart and sustainable communities. So a lot of what that had to deal with it had to deal with kind of the measures. That you know jurisdictions whether it's city a county a state. It could be the whole country. Um or subdivision know a township or a town Whatever some of the measures they could do to look at their sustainability kind of provisions and you know one of the things that are. 45:47.98 robert solomon Committees had worked on. We looked at some of the metrics about about what you would measure. But we also looked at the ways that you would measure it and that involved extensive use of smart technologies right? you know sensors whether it's a camera or it's something embedded in the sidewalk or embedded in the street to. Look at pedestrian traffic vehicle traffic. Ah you know to to to collect data about you know about about bus routes about garbage collection times. So so that that was kind of the the piece I I talked about at that event and Ken was a. Ah, presented on some of that from the ul perspective so we were asked to kind of put something together around smart technologies I think the initial idea was to focus it on smart firefighting and there's a whole ah fire protection research foundation report on that which is awesome. But we said you know look this is you know this isn't just smart firefighting right? This is this is something that affects my opinion every aspect of the built environment right? So everything from the time the developer says I want to build a whatever. Right? And then they might have ah they might have a small internal design team is this that design team starts firing up their revt model all of a sudden now I have like that first piece of smart technology I've got something that's going to get translated. 47:21.72 robert solomon To the other consultants. Um, it's probably going to get translated as part of the as built drawings for the building and then those things are going to start to connect to maybe oh elevator. Oh here here's here's all my elevator specs over here here's the manufacturers criteria for the actual elevators that I have installed. So. All of a sudden you you have this? ah this ecosystem that is connected from obviously the design stage all the way through building lifecycle. So I think our our our chapter kind of work to connect those pieces together how you know ah kind of kind of how it all works. Everything that we do now there's there's some aspect right? I mean what you know you know you and I are using smart technology today even though we're using you know computers or cameras or whatever right? Those those kind of fit into that because we're connected to the internet somewhere and and I think that's really any. Any device or component that kind of can get online like that and go to the cloud somewhere that that kind of falls into this broad category of of smart technology. So we we kind of laid out the the basics of that and talked about like you know you know. Where this appears I mean it appears in tractors and combines it appears in the medical community and the medical devices. Um it. It appears in traffic lights and traffic signals. So so it's everywhere. it's around us um I don't think it's going away I think if anything right? There's going to be more of it. So. 48:59.27 robert solomon So we tried to set that broad landscape about all the places that smart technology shows up and appears and you know some people say well my privacy my privacy my privacy. Um I think. I think the days of privacy are I I don't say that they're gone but you know like we you know we we we all have to decide if we're going to carry a smartphone and if we carry a smartphone you know we're going to lose some of that privacy. We can control. Maybe what what app is tracking us but we we have to make those decisions. So so what we try to do is is lay out that broad landscape and then and then kind of bring it back to. Okay, when we look at the built environment in codes and standards. You know what? what are? what are some places that this is working in right now and and you look in n f p 25 and and nfpa twenty. For example, you see some things that we now can monitor remotely will let you will let that count towards your Nfpa 25 itm inspection or maybe a weekly test instead of having a person to physically go there open the door. And watch the pump run for 20 minutes and then go back. So so you know there there are ways that we can improve those efficiencies but there's also the performance criteria the codes had ah the standards. How to add it right in Nfk Twenty five and thirteen and nfk twenty as examples and those are. 50:30.16 robert solomon Those are the the 3 I think we ah we talk about the most you know within the new chapter. Um, so you know that that that was the purpose of that um I I hope that I hope we achieve that there I mean there's so much you could write. And what's interesting is you know what people don't realize those handbooks take a long time to produce and nfpa did ah I think did an awesome job with it. Um, but that content it's content that Ken and I wrote probably back in most of it. January February of 2021 and you look at how many things have changed since then right it those. 51:02.95 firecodetech Wow. Well. 51:05.67 robert solomon And those 2 years right so we we had. We had a chance to add a few more things a bit later in the year but you know there's a point where okay, you know it's going into production. You can only make editorial changes you you know you can't add the new substance. But I said that whole area of ah of smart systems. You know there's there's something. New. It seems like almost every day that you learn about or read about or or kind of the next thing that that's around the corner. So. 51:31.96 firecodetech Yeah, yeah, it's It's so ubiquitous that you know you get into. We do a lot of military work and you know they don't want smart devices in there because it's a cybersecurity threat and it's like trying to find ah a pump or something a domestic water pump or something that's not already. 51:39.25 robert solomon Right. 51:49.50 firecodetech Have bluetooth capabilities. It's like they're having to scramble to find something in the range of the manufacturers. They're used to. That's not smart capable or disabled in some ways. So it's ah fascinating how ubiquitous it is. But. 51:57.73 robert solomon At right. 52:04.14 robert solomon Right. 52:06.21 firecodetech Robert I want to be mindful of your time and I've really enjoyed the conversation and lots of great topics and we didn't get to all the questions I had for you. But um I just really appreciate. It was a great conversation and thanks for coming on the show. 52:13.69 robert solomon Just go. 52:22.65 robert solomon All right? Well again, thank you very much and I said it's it's great for me to see young folks like you. Ah you know getting in this business and that was one of your questions right? We we need more and you know I think if I've got a minute here. 1 of the questions I want to make sure we hit on. You know he said what. 52:33.38 firecodetech Sure. 52:38.32 robert solomon But what are the other things to attract more people and I think one of the right I think Sfpe is doing a great job I think the individual universities do a great job of that outreach one of the things that that I see is ah a potentially untapped group of ah of engineers. It's the 24 schools that have architectural engineering programs and I I know there's one at Wpi. That's where most of my students come in um to my class from there's 1 at Oklahoma state for example, but I think I think that I think. Architectural engineers are kind of like fps because like they're learning a little bit about every building system and feature and they they already have a pretty good background on understanding electrical systems and and how the architect works and the structural piece. Ah and the plumbing pieces. So. 53:13.95 firecodetech M. 53:29.43 robert solomon I think I think that's ah, that's maybe an untapped group that we all could be looking at to to maybe go talk to the architectural engineering students at these you know, handful of schools that offer those programs to you know, get them interested and then have them. You know come to work and then you know part time. You know, go get your masters at Cal Paulley or Maryland or Wpi or I don't even know who all who all has them now of the Us. But those are some things to I think that's a good place to look for for new new folks. 53:59.50 firecodetech That's a great point I appreciate you touching on that because I see just nonstop on Linkedin Job posting job posting job posting people are looking for new hires and I think that you know as a industry we have to be better at outreach going to Ashray and. 54:08.99 robert solomon Kind of. 54:17.24 firecodetech Going to these other professional Societies. You know going and speaking with other college degree plans like the architectural engineering and putting the thought of fire protection and the promise of what a great field. It is and in those young minds. So I Appreciate that point we got to get creative and um. Let ah get the word out about how great this profession is so that's a great point to end on. 54:38.44 robert solomon Yeah, great. Okay, well yeah, yeah, thank you very much and yeah, um, best of luck with the podcast who and you and you you your their fulltime job so it sounds sounds like sounds like you've had a you've had a good niche here as well. So enjoy. 54:54.12 firecodetech Um, yeah, oh thank you very much.
