#118: The Silent PLG Killers: Why Smart Founders Fail at Product-Led Growth - Wes Bush

Vince Hsieh is a two-time entrepreneur who has started, grown, and sold two industrial tech companies that included software and either an RFID or GPS device in the solutions. His second venture, Geoforce, raised a non-dilutive funding round to accelerate global growth before being successfully acquired by private equity investors LLR Partners in 2019. Their royalty-based funding round allowed Geoforce to skip a VC funding round, preserving founder equity and fueling their growth. After their acquisition, Vince shares that the founders saved tens of millions of dollars in founder equity value with their non-dilutive funding from Cypress Growth Capital. Vince eventually joined Cypress as a general partner, working with capital-efficient SaaS founders to help them build more enterprise value. Vince shares how royalty-based funding can be a very useful funding approach in specific situations. Quote from Vince Hsieh, partner at Cypress Growth Capital "Skipping a VC found by using non-dilutive funding made a huge difference to us at Geoforce, especially compared to my first startup where we did not have royalty-based funding in the middle from Cypress. We had just venture capital and then eventually sold to private equity. "So the math of royalty-based funding is amazing because from the time of our funding from Cypress to the time we sold to private equity, our equity, our value more than 10x'd. But we didn't pay back Cyprus anything close to 10X. "Had we raised several million dollars in VC funding with equity, there would have been easily tens of millions of dollars of difference between having done royalty-based funding and equity funding. And that tens of millions of dollars of difference went into our shareholders' pockets, including the founders and our friends and families who invested earlier." Links Vince Hsieh on LinkedIn Cypress Growth Capital on LinkedIn Cypress Growth Capital website Geoforce website Podcast Sponsor – Cypress Growth Capital This week’s podcast is sponsored by my friends at Cypress Growth Capital. For 15 years, Cypress has provided non-dilutive growth funding to bootstrapped SaaS founders, including many successful founders I’ve interviewed here on this podcast. The Practical Founders Podcast Tune into the Practical Founders Podcast for weekly in-depth interviews with founders who have built valuable software companies without big funding. Subscribe to the Practical Founders Podcast using your favorite podcast app. Get the weekly Practical Founders newsletter and podcast updates at practicalfounders.com/newsletter.

Bill Spruill had a successful sales and executive career with two exits before he and his cofounder struck out on their own in the location verification market serving financial and e-commerce companies. Sales grew slowly for several years as they scraped by and kept going. Eventually, they pivoted the company to focus on identity verification and know-your-customer (KYC) with a new approach, and sales grew steadily every month.  Global Data Consortium (GDC) partnered with data providers and fintech companies who became loyal customers, trusted partners, and potential acquirers. The company grew over 100% for several years, acquiring new partners and adding experienced leaders to their small team. In 2022, the London Stock Exchange Group (LSEG) acquired GDC for $300 million in an all-cash deal.  Bill talks about the lessons he learned in their patient growth journey, the challenges of trying and failing to raise startup capital, their frugal focus, their incredible acquisition story, and what he is doing now as a successful former founder.  Quote from Bill Spruill, founder of Global Data Consortium (GDC) “There was a low point in the business where we were just struggling with, Why are we doing this? Are we going to make it? So we stepped back and said, We’re gonna do something very simple. We’re gonna focus on 10% growth every month, which wasn’t a big number then. “We focused on moving the needle 10% every month with revenue. And then you get into the power of compounding. Every month we moved it 10% and we would celebrate. We kept moving that needle 10%, 10%, 10%. “Eventually, that number got to be very sizable where we cracked through $5 million in revenue and we paid off all of our debt. And we became profitable and we kept growing fast. That unleashed the ability to accelerate our growth, growing 100% a year as we got bigger.” Links Bill Spruill on LinkedIn Global Data Consortium (GDC) on LinkedIn Global Data Consortium (GDC)  website, now called LSEG Risk Intelligence London Stock Exchange Group (LSEG) website Podcast Sponsor – Full Scale This week’s podcast is sponsored by Full Scale, one of the fastest-growing software development companies in any region. Full Scale vets, employs, and supports over 300 professional developers, designers, and testers in the Philippines who can augment and extend your core dev team. Learn more at fullscale.io. The Practical Founders Podcast Tune into the Practical Founders Podcast for weekly in-depth interviews with founders who have built valuable software companies without big funding. Subscribe to the Practical Founders Podcast using your favorite podcast app. Get the weekly Practical Founders newsletter and podcast updates at practicalfounders.com/newsletter.

Troy Munson has been a successful enterprise SaaS sales rep for several years, but he wanted more control over his life—and eventual financial independence. So he launched his own small startup on the side. He learned a lot and sold it before launching his second side gig software company, which he sold for a little bit more.  He started his third side-gig startup, Dimmo, in 2023 to allow enterprise software buyers to watch product demos without talking to sales reps. With the help of co-founders, Dimmo is now live and revenues are growing fast. With a little angel funding, Troy was able to go full-time to make Dimmo successful quickly. Troy is a fast-start SaaS founder, testing ideas and launching companies when traction starts. He and his cofounders don’t think about running this forever, but they do want to create a valuable company and achieve financial independence as successful practical founders. Quote from Troy Munson, CEO of Dimmo "I'm like this fast-starter person. I built Vocul and Refurl, my first two side gigs, from an immediate thought: This is annoying, this should be solved. Let me solve it, let me sell it. And then let me see if there's any interest. "With Dimmo, I just wanted to create extra income on the side. The hope for Dimmo was to pay my mortgage with a side gig. I knew software buyers just wanted to watch software demos. So let's just make it like a YouTube for software demos and then we'll just take some sort of revenue. "It blew up on LinkedIn when we launched and grew faster than expected. I had to go full-time and I'm so happy I did. It feels great. I hope I never go back to the side gig guy. I also hope I never go back to any sort of any sort of W-2 work. I'm buying my freedom." Links Troy Munson on LinkedIn Dimmo on LinkedIn Dimmo.ai website Podcast Sponsor - Cypress Growth Capital This week’s podcast is sponsored by my friends at Cypress Growth Capital. For 15 years, Cypress has provided non-dilutive growth funding to bootstrapped SaaS founders, including many successful founders I’ve interviewed here on this podcast. The Practical Founders Podcast Tune into the Practical Founders Podcast for weekly in-depth interviews with founders who have built valuable software companies without big funding. Subscribe to the Practical Founders Podcast using your favorite podcast app. Get the weekly Practical Founders newsletter and podcast updates at practicalfounders.com. 

Wes Bush is CEO of ProductLed, a coaching and education company that has helped almost 500 serious SaaS founders to succeed with product-led growth strategies, tactics, and execution. These include freemium products and free trials, where the product itself creates the awareness, engagement, and enthusiasm to buy before any human intervention (aka “the required sales demo”). Wes has written two successful books, Product-Led Growth and The Product-Led Playbook, describing key ideas, frameworks, approaches, and examples for SaaS founders. In this expert episode, Wes shares his expertise for SaaS founders, including these topics: Defining product-led growth Transitioning from sales-led to product-led Common mistakes in product-led growth Identifying challenges and solutions for user experience Pricing strategies in product-led growth The future of product-led growth in SaaS Quote from Wes Bush, CEO of ProductLed “The PLG model you choose doesn’t matter. Not a bit. Freemium, free trial, credit card up front, whatever. You can make any of those work. That’s not the question. What matters in PLG is the actual outcome that we hope somebody will get from our product-led experience? “Does your free motion actually have a transformation in it where they can feel they will grow bigger, save time, and do cool stuff? Because if you don’t have that, it’s literally just, “Hey, look around, see for yourself, see what you can do in this product. That’s not real value.” “What is your PLG outcome that creates that transformation for the user? There has to be tangible value for the user before they ever consider buying. That’s what customers want when they buy software now–Show me value first before I think about buying from you.” Links Wes Bush on LinkedIn ProductLed on LinkedIn ProductLed website Free Product-Led Growth book Free Product-Led Growth audio book The Product-Led Playbook book The Practical Founders Podcast Tune into the Practical Founders Podcast for weekly in-depth interviews with founders who have built valuable software companies without big funding. Subscribe to the Practical Founders Podcast using your favorite podcast app. Get the weekly Practical Founders newsletter and podcast updates at practicalfounders.com. 

Michael McAllister is the founder and former CEO of The CE Shop, the leading provider of pre-licensing and continuing education for real estate professionals in the U.S. Michael started The CE Shop in 2005 by distributing existing training materials from a continuing education provider. They quickly created their own online education solution and proceeded to expand with specific content and compliance elements for each state.  The CE Shop grew steadily without outside funding for 15 years by building a 5-star team, adding partner channels, expanding to new states, and providing more content for the pre-licensing of new real estate agents. The company grew to over 130 employees and expanded faster during COVID. Michael successfully sold the company to private equity investors in 2020 for a “9-figure exit,” meaning more than $100 million, to Waud Capital. On this podcast, Michael shares the realities of their growth journey, including their special emphasis on culture, people, and practical expansion as a bootstrapped technology business.  Podcast Sponsor – Cypress Growth Capital This week’s podcast is sponsored by my friends at Cypress Growth Capital. For 15 years, Cypress has provided non-dilutive growth funding to bootstrapped SaaS founders, including many successful founders I’ve interviewed here on this podcast. Quote from Michael McAllister, Founder of the CE Shop “When founders sell their companies, I'd suggest they need to do it when they hold all the cards. During our first experience with a serious potential buyer, we asked for a lot of information about their business. It was reverse due diligence since I’d be the biggest private investor in their company. “We were two weeks before closing, and I called our banker and said, this is really frustrating that we’re asking for all this information and not getting it back. Unless we do, we may need to pull the plug on this deal. We held all the cards. We had a great business. We didn’t need to sell like we were completely in the driver’s seat.  “It was really difficult but we decided to pull the plug on the deal. The biggest thing was that there was a real mismatch in core values. Our core values were foundational to who we were and who we are as a company. One of them was doing what we said we’d do. And it was a $100 million question. It was a big deal.“ Links Michael McAllister on LinkedIn The CE Shop on LinkedIn The CE Shop website Waud Capital website (acquirer)   The Practical Founders Podcast Tune into the Practical Founders Podcast for weekly in-depth interviews with founders who have built valuable software companies without big funding. Subscribe to the Practical Founders Podcast using your favorite podcast app. Get the weekly Practical Founders newsletter and podcast updates at practicalfounders.com. 

Last year I interviewed three-time software founder Matt Watson on this podcast about his successful practical founder journeys. Matt leveraged offshore software development talent in his last two SaaS companies to staff up quickly and grow efficiently. His top developers and designers were offshore in the Philippines, but they weren’t one-off contractors or difficult-to-manage outsourced agencies. He found an endless supply of top tech talent who became savvy members of his team, working hard every day to get things done fast. So, for his fourth venture, Matt created Full Scale, one of the fastest-growing software development companies in any region. Full Scale vets, employs, and supports over 300 professional developers, designers, and testers in the Philippines who augment and extend your core dev team. In this expert session with a Practical Founders Podcast sponsor, Matt shares what works and doesn’t work for practical SaaS founders who want to offshore some or all of their software development. Links Matt Watson on LinkedIn Full Scale on LinkedIn Full Scale website Startup Hustle podcast Product Driven video channel The Practical Founders Podcast Tune into the Practical Founders Podcast for weekly in-depth interviews with founders who have built valuable software companies without big funding. Subscribe to the Practical Founders Podcast using your favorite podcast app. Get the weekly Practical Founders newsletter and podcast updates at practicalfounders.com. 

Eric Dill was a successful mortgage broker in Sydney, Australia, who struggled with the same painful problem as every other broker: manually checking with multiple banks to validate and price mortgages for homeowners. Eric and his good friend Angus Keatinge resolved to create a software product to solve this complicated and chronic problem. Quickli was launched in late 2021 and it immediately gained happy customers and fans without any proactive marketing or sales. Three years later, more than 10,000 mortgage brokers use Quickli every week—that's over 50% market share. Quickli has AUD $5 million in ARR with 40 employees. This is an amazing story of two product-focused entrepreneurs who solved a difficult problem and grew a successful software company without any outside funding. Quickli still has almost no marketing staff and no salespeople. Most of their employees are engineers working on the product and customer service. Quote from Eric Dill, cofounder and co-CEO of Quickli “We just cracked the $5 million ARR figure in just three years, which is a big milestone for us. We have 10,000 brokers on the platform, which is over 50% of the total market in Australia. We also have 40 employees, mostly in engineering. “It’s been very, very much a story of product-led growth. Our product completely solves the biggest problem that every broker has every day. No other product has solved it. Brokers have been telling each other about Quickli, and we have some really big fans. It’s a very tight community of brokers who help each other. ‘How lucky did we get? Because we didn’t do anything. Almost marketing and no sales. We have a website. To say we have half a marketing person feels like an overstatement because we have a customer service person who also does some marketing on the side for us.” Links Angus Keatinge on LinkedIn Eric Dill on LinkedIn Quickli on Linkedin Quickli website Podcast Sponsor – Cypress Growth Capital This week’s podcast is sponsored by my friends at Cypress Growth Capital. For 15 years, Cypress has provided non-dilutive growth funding to bootstrapped SaaS founders, including many successful founders I’ve interviewed here on this podcast. The Practical Founders Podcast Tune into the Practical Founders Podcast for weekly in-depth interviews with founders who have built valuable software companies without big funding. Subscribe to the Practical Founders Podcast using your favorite podcast app. Get the weekly Practical Founders newsletter and podcast updates at practicalfounders.com.   

Guy Rubin is the co-founder and CEO of ebsta, a revenue intelligence platform that works with Salesforce and Hubspot to automatically analyze existing data to improve sales performance. Started in London in 2012, ebsta found success in the early days of the Salesforce marketplace and addon economy as a data tool integrated with customer emails.  ebsta has since become a complete revenue intelligence platform, serving sales teams with 10-100 sales reps. With 400 customers, 30 employees, and no VC funding, ebsta competes with a focused approach to play in the massive Salesforce ecosystem and against huge competitors.  Guy talks about their many pivots, running the business with his wife as cofounder, and the benefits and challenges of not being in San Francisco with VC funding. With deep data across thousands of sales reps, ebsta publishes an annual ebsta Sales Benchmark Report with specific data about close rates, quota attainment, and data-driven factors to improve sales performance.  Podcast Sponsor – Full Scale This week’s podcast is sponsored by Full Scale, one of the fastest-growing software development companies in any region. Full Scale vets, employs, and supports over 300 professional developers, designers, and testers in the Philippines who can augment and extend your core dev team. Learn more at fullscale.io. Quote from Guy Rubin, CEO of ebsta “We found ourselves in a place where we had some amazingly talented, very driven, very focused doers, and they were happy to work together as a common goal and get stuff done. “What moved the bar for me as the CEO was bringing on board advisors. I’ve now got four board advisors and a chairman sitting around me. We also brought on a CTO, CPO, and CFO, who are very experienced. “So bring in those experts around you, people independent of those doing the doing. Don’t get me wrong; you need the doers. They’re absolutely vital, but I also needed experts to help me at the running stage. “That was the best thing I ever did: bringing those expert advisors in. And if you’re small, I would encourage founders to ask different people to be advisors to give you an outside perspective.  You’d be surprised if people love being asked for help and ask you some difficult questions.” Links Guy Rubin on LinkedIn ebsta on LinkedIn ebsta website 2024 ebsta SaaS Sales Benchmarks Report The Practical Founders Podcast Tune into the Practical Founders Podcast for weekly in-depth interviews with founders who have built valuable software companies without big funding. Subscribe to the Practical Founders Podcast using your favorite podcast app. Get the weekly Practical Founders newsletter and podcast updates at practicalfounders.com. 

Stuart Draper founded Stukent, an innovative ed-tech company that provides simulated internships for business students. Stukent started by focusing on high-quality digital marketing education for colleges and universities using up-to-date digital textbooks and content. They then added a simulation system for students to practice their digital marketing skills. Stukent grew steadily with less than $1M in outside funding, which helped them bridge the long and seasonal buying cycles of big schools. The team grew to over 100 employees and nearly $10 million in revenue serving marketing professors and their students.  In 2021, they engaged with Vista Point Advisors, an M&A advisor firm, to shop the company to prospective buyers and investors, eventually getting a majority investment from Tritium Partners. Stuart describes the M&A process, what worked well, and how he transitioned out of the company after two years of continued growth.  Podcast Sponsor – Cypress Growth Capital This week’s podcast is sponsored by my friends at Cypress Growth Capital. For 15 years, Cypress has provided non-dilutive growth funding to bootstrapped SaaS founders, including many successful founders I’ve interviewed here on this podcast. Quote from Stuart Draper, founder of Stukent “When we officially sold a major part of our company to investors, we had a brief celebration. My CFO and I called each other and screamed as loud as we could on the phone in a fun moment. We got there, we did this. My family also took a big trip and I got a break. “But then it was back to work. I was still the CEO and I still run this thing and I’ve got new investors that also need returns. I’m going to go deliver for these guys. They gave me a big payday, so I’m going to make sure they have a win too. “After the second board meeting with our investors, I realized this is way harder than I thought. After eight board meetings and doubling the business again, I wasn’t enjoying this as much anymore. The board meetings were hard for me. Prepping for them was super stressful. “So we found a new CEO for Stukent, and he’s doing great. Now I get to sit back in my chair at the board meeting, listen in, share my advice and opinions and come back in three months.” Links Stuart Draper on LinkedIn Stukent on LinkedIn Stukent website Tritium Partners website The Practical Founders Podcast Tune into the Practical Founders Podcast for weekly in-depth interviews with founders who have built valuable software companies without big funding. Subscribe to the Practical Founders Podcast using your favorite podcast app. Get the weekly Practical Founders newsletter and podcast updates at practicalfounders.com. 

John Stewart created and sold an engineering services business, then grew a Salesforce integration services company before building some early software products. One of their software experiments allowed Salesforce customers to see and interact with their customer data on a map. When customers paid for it and revenue grew, he and his co-founder wound down services and focused on their mapping product.  MapAnything grew quickly to over $2M ARR as a bootstrapped software company, with some revenue-based financing from Lighter Capital to help test their growth plans. When they focused on field service route optimization and grew quickly, MapAnything raised several rounds of venture capital to grow even faster by focusing its sales and marketing efforts within the Salesforce ecosystem.  MapAnything reached $22 million in ARR before Salesforce acquired the company for $250 million. John stayed on with Salesforce for six months before moving on. John and a co-founder launched Fastbreak.ai three years later, a sports schedule optimization platform for professional and amateur sports leagues.  Quote from John Stewart, former CEO of MapAnything “I tell founders most often that you really need to focus on sales and distribution. As a CEO of a startup in the tech space or SaaS, the only thing that really matters is revenue growth. Technology is technology. Even if you have unique IP right now, it won’t be unique soon enough. “So you need to figure out your go-to-market motion. That’s the single most important thing. Revenue cures all ills. It doesn’t matter what’s going on in the company as long as revenue is growing. It’s all about revenue growth more than anything.” Links John Stewart on LinkedIn MapAnything on LinkedIn Salesforce website Fastbreak.ai website The Practical Founders Podcast Tune into the Practical Founders Podcast for weekly in-depth interviews with founders who have built valuable software companies without big funding. Subscribe to the Practical Founders Podcast using your favorite podcast app. Get the weekly Practical Founders newsletter and podcast updates at practicalfounders.com.